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Amanpour
Interview with Multi-Faith Neighbors Network Co-Founder Bob Roberts Jr.; Interview with "American Hagwon" and "Pachinko" Author Min Jin Lee; Interview with "The W: A History of the WNBA" Author Tamryn Spruill. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 23, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR., CO-FOUNDER, MULTI-FAITH NEIGHBORS NETWORK: I begin to realize as evangelicals we have the worst negative view of Muslims of
any group in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Faith and politics collide. Divisions deepen ahead of the U.S. midterms. But what, if anything, can bring Americans together instead of
driving them apart? I speak to conservative evangelical pastor and bridge builder Bob Roberts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIN JIN LEE, AUTHOR, "AMERICAN HAGWON" AND "PACHINKO": I think that Koreans are so misunderstood. And perhaps it's because we're not visible in
the culture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: From the best-selling author of "Pachinko," a new story about Koreans in the world, novelist Min Jin Lee on immigration, identity, and
the price of the American dream.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMRYN SPRUILL, AUTHOR, "THE W: A HISTORY OF THE WNBA": The Women's League had been so pushed into the margins that people didn't know the players.
And in this case, that the league even existed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Author Tamryn Spruill speaks to Michel Martin about the struggles that shaped women's basketball and her new book, "The W."
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
With less than two weeks to the U.S. midterms, religion is once again taking center stage in American politics. In Michigan, Democratic Senate
candidate Abdul El-Sayed was challenged by a former Republican staffer to disavow the Muslim Brotherhood. El-Sayed did so, but questioned why his
faith was being scrutinized in the first place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABDUL EL-SAYED, MICHIGAN SENATE NOMINEE: I'm going to swear an oath to the Constitution of the United States. And that Constitution guarantees us all
the right to practice whatever faith we want or no faith at all. And now, you assume, you assume, Tommy, that because I am Muslim, that somehow I
would have some allegiance to something that is not our Constitution. I'm not running to be a Muslim senator. I'm running for U.S. Senate and happen
to be Muslim.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: That exchange comes as Christian nationalism and religious polarization are increasingly part of America's political debate. But one
conservative evangelical pastor from deep red Texas is calling for a different approach. He is Pastor Bob Roberts of Northwood Church. He has
joined forces with a Muslim imam to bring Christians, Muslims and Jews together, building bridges across those religious divides.
I spoke to him about the rise of Islamophobia, the spike in anti-Semitism, and how faith can help bring Americans together instead of driving them
apart.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Pastor Bob Roberts, welcome to the program. Let me just start by saying we've seen this film, this story about your mission, about what
you're doing. And you really say the public square used to be a place where people came, discussed, talked, resolved their difficulties, just came in
communion. What's happened since? What is it now, the public square?
PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR., CO-FOUNDER, MULTI-FAITH NEIGHBORS NETWORK: I fear the public square has become a place of interrogation, a place of
inflammation. It is not a place where we are exchanging ideas to listen to one another, to learn from one another. Instead, we are showing up with our
position and we're fighting to win the public square instead of listening to all the voices present in the public square. So, we can learn how to
live together and compromise where we need to.
AMANPOUR: Pastor, you do some of your work, a lot of this bridge building work with a partner who is a Muslim cleric, Imam Mohamed Magid. We tried to
have him with us on this conversation, as you know, but unfortunately, he's not feeling well.
But in the spirit of your work together, you know, you've called the public square now kind of a fighting ring, as you're discussing. And he's
basically said that, you know, we've got to get back to it being a place for the actual exchange of ideas and to try to resolve issues in a human
way. Why did you two choose to work together?
ROBERTS JR.: We didn't choose to work together. We accidentally met one another. I'm a very conservative evangelical pastor and I grew up in a
little town of a thousand people. And the other religion was the Methodist Church. That was it. I'm a Baptist. And I didn't know what a Muslim was. I
knew very little about the world. I knew very little about the world. I knew a little bit about Judaism.
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But when I got out and I began to experience the world and I got to know people, I realized that I knew a lot about the Bible, but I knew very
little about people. And I began to see all the ways that we conflicted and that we didn't get along. And I realized that there's this bigger picture
of all of us inheriting this space on the world to live. And faith ought to be a thing that brings us together. But instead, it was pulling us apart.
And it was the exact same thing with magic.
And so, what we did, we mapped out together. How did we shift? How did I come to still hold on to my faith, not compromise my theology, but what did
I experience that caused me to be friends with a Muslim? And what did he experience that caused him to be friends with a Christian? And then I began
to realize as evangelicals, we have the worst negative view of Muslims of any group in the world. The only group that's worse are evangelical
pastors.
So, just think about it. It's what members here coming from the pulpits that's driving that. And I realized Muslims could never change that. But I
could. I'm evangelical. And in Pakistan and other parts of the world, Muslim majority countries, magic can do the same thing with the Muslim
community and challenging them.
And we learned, frankly, more by challenging our own tribes than by challenging the other tribe. If we work together, we could see change. And
it's been incredible.
AMANPOUR: You know, I think that's remarkable. And again, to quote Magid, he's talked about the public square needing to be a marketplace of ideas.
Can you give me one, just one or two kind of results that you feel have come from both of your work? How have you challenged your own tribe and
what results have you seen?
ROBERTS JR.: Well, when I challenged my tribe, a perfect example that that I look to a lot is in the northwest in Seattle, a white Christian
supremacist burned down a mosque. And one of the pastors had been to the retreat, to the gathering. And this imam had been a part of it as well.
That pastor was one of the first people on the spot where the mosque was burning. And he handed the guy the keys to his church and said, look, this
is unacceptable what this man did. And we want to make sure that you have a place to worship.
That may not be a big deal for a liberal church or a liberal Christian, but for a conservative Christian, that's a big deal. On Magid's side for the
Muslim aspect of that, the best illustration I can give you would be Pakistan, where a year and a half ago, you may remember some churches were
burned. Houses were burned. Lives were taken. And all of a sudden, you had imams rushing to the scene, stopping what was taking place. And these were
imams that we had trained, that we had been with, that we had worked with and say, you can't do this in the name of God. This is wrong. And so, we
see these changes taking place.
But, Ms. Amanpour, the key is not that we're giving them more information, not that they've discovered a Bible verse or a Quran verse. What we do is
we have a three-day retreat where they get to know one another. We build a relationship. And it's not lectures. It's all relational and it's
facilitated. And through those relationships, we help them understand we're all human beings.
And so, how do we live where all religions are all present now? Every religion is everywhere. It's no longer where Christians are just in the
West and Muslims in the East and Chinese and -- or Buddhists in the Far East. It's where all religions are everywhere. So, we have got to learn how
are we going to relate to one another moving forward?
AMANPOUR: I think it's so inspiring listening to you. But again, let me bring it back to the United States, because, as you know, you talked about
I'm going to put words in my mouth about, you know, the prejudice against Muslims. It's been said that Islamophobia is the one major continuing
acceptable bias. And it seems to be true. When I say acceptable, there's very little accountability in the United States for that.
And it's been weaponized in the U.S. And it's been politicized, especially during this political cycle. I don't know whether you watch the viral video
where a Muslim American who's running as an American under the American Constitution to be senator in Michigan was confronted by a conservative
Christian. That's how he, I believe, described himself.
And essentially, you know, back and forth about essentially implying that perhaps El-Sayed of Michigan had some kind of sympathy for terrorism or et
cetera. And I wonder how you read that. What did you think when you saw that, if you have, in fact, come across it?
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ROBERTS JR.: I've seen it. And it made me very sad. I'm from Texas. And I've watched the whole political climate in the last year just be ramped up
in a horrendous way. And I think it's driven primarily by politicians, politicians that are fighting to get elected. And so, they have thrown the
Muslim community under the bus, so to speak. And I think it's unacceptable.
I see it taking place across our country. I listen to what Tommy Tuberville said, you know, on the Senate floor. And I listen to things that are being
said, and this is not the America that we put together, that we designed. This is America where we believe in religious freedom. And it's horrible
that it's considered acceptable. It should not be acceptable for Christians to say this person and their religion has no right to practice here. That's
not who we are.
That's what we came to America for historically, theologically as a Christian. That's not what the Bible teaches. I mean, there's nowhere in
the Bible that says that we're to make a Christian nation. It says that we're to have disciples in every nation that influence nations. But the way
that we are responding is un-Christlike in every way. The very people that we would want to reach the good news of Jesus with, we malign them, we put
them down.
Why are they going to ever be open to the gospel that we want the world to follow if we're trashing people? You don't have to trash somebody else's
religion for you to stand in your own.
AMANPOUR: Pastor, then, what happens when we're confronted with the situation that we're in right now in the United States? You've got an
openly Catholic vice president who talks about his religion, and particularly, you know, not just as religion but in terms of politics and
national security. You've got an openly or self-avowedly conservative Christian defense secretary who talks about the war on Iran as some kind of
spiritual mandate by the United States to complete.
We know that there are these very conservative prayer groups based inside the White House. And you remember when a group of religious Christians sort
of put their hands on President Trump shortly after the war on Iran began. Now, this is employing Christianity and Jesus Christ to justify a war.
ROBERTS JR.: I think when we use our faith to justify violence, hateful speech, we've left our faith. Jesus didn't just give us a message. He gave
us the character that goes with that message, the way that we're to speak, the way that we're to talk, the way that we're to communicate to other
people. And his message was one of love.
And listen, I disagree with Muslims. I believe Jesus was God. I disagree with Jews. I believe the Messiah was Jesus and he was God. So, I would
believe fundamental, core, essential differences. But I also believe in religious freedom. And I also believe that when this country was put
together from Benjamin Franklin, who said that religious freedom is so important that the Grand Mufti of Istanbul should be here to come and
preach. Thomas Jefferson. We don't need a lesson in religious history and church history and the Constitution. But that's what holds us together.
And here's the thing. As a Christian, it is the Bible that holds us together. As a nation, it is the Constitution that holds us together. And
that's critical. I'm a conservative Christian. And that is something that we have forgotten. But if I believe I've got to be this Christian nation,
why do I want to go back to what Europe was? I mean, we saw what that -- what happened there.
And then we're left with the government deciding, well, what's Christian? I'm a conservative Christian. So, what does that mean about liberal
Christians? What does it mean about other religion? How do we define who's in and who's out? What do we say to Latter-day Saints? I would disagree
with all of these at different points. But it's not just freedom of religion, it's freedom of conscience. It's the ability to own your own
mind, to think for yourself.
I don't want to be in a, quote, "Christian nation" where people are forced to be Christians. And if they're not, well, we're not forced. But you're
less than. I want to be in a country where everyone is free and equal. I work in Syria a lot. And I've met with many of the Syrian Christians. I've
been there recently. I'm going again in a few days.
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And one of the things the Christians have told me is we don't want to be viewed as minorities. We want to be viewed as people with equal rights. And
I think we Americans need to go back to American history one on one and realize what put us together.
AMANPOUR: Pastor, you must be paying some kind of price amongst your own tribe, as you call it, for these views. I think you've said that when you
first started talking about this and first started working with Muslims in America, that you lost a couple of hundred members of your own congregation
and your own members.
What -- how is it going? Have you managed to, you know, bring them around? And what does that say to you when you have people walk out on you?
ROBERTS JR.: That is a very important question. And there's two ways I want to answer. Yes, we rebounded and God is blessing our church. And yes,
it was very difficult. But what it said to me was we were not doing a good job of teaching our church about what Jesus expects of his followers to
love people. And what he expects of us at the point of bringing people together. And what that looks like. It's like we have just forgotten it.
And I think something has happened to the American Evangelical Church. I think we've been captivated by consumer Christianity, culture wars and
celebrity pastors. And as a result of that, our primary measurement, our dashboard, if you will, is how many new converts do we have? How many
people come to our church? How many people come and listen to me preach? That is a growth mindset. And it's important.
But our growth -- our mindset is not just to be concerned about reaching more people to come to our church. It also has to be a prophetic voice. And
sometimes we have to speak truth to our own tribe, because when we don't -- if we let false things continue to be said and believed, and we don't
challenge them because we're afraid we're going to lose some people, then we will lose the church. But it'll be the next generation, because we
didn't have the courage to do the course correction that was necessary.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you one final question. There has been a massive spike in hate crimes and hate speech and hate action in the United States
and elsewhere since October 7th, particularly pitted of Jews and Muslims against each other. Have you come across that when you work with Imam
Magid? Are you trying to get Muslims and Jews also to talk to each other again?
ROBERTS JR.: We are. And there's another part of this trinity. It's called Bob Magid and Rabbi Ambassador David Saperstein. He's a part of this as
well. And we deal with it all the time. The reality is that many of the interfaith organizations cratered during this time and still they're
struggling. And we've had struggles, but we've survived and we've actually grown and we've continued to spread out across America and the rest of the
world. But here is why we build relationships.
And what we try to do, we show up with our opinions and positions and we fight to win an argument or debate and we fail to listen to one another.
And so, I think one of the goals that I have personally is how do we continue to build relationships among Christians and Muslims and Jews and
others so that we can have these conversations?
I'll tell you something else that happens when you become friends with an Imam or a pastor or a rabbi. It changes your rhetoric and it changes how
you view how other people treat them. You know, because, you know, the big thing I hear is, well, we've got to stand up for the truth and I love them.
But, man, I got to tell them the way it is. That's right. You should. But if you can't do that in love and if they don't recognize the fact that you
love them, it doesn't matter whether you say you love them or not.
What matters is, can they tell that you love them by how you care for them? Jesus is the perfect alternative to hate. He's love. And we don't have to
compromise our theology. We just have to be kind. Why do we think we have to be mean and hateful and harsh in order to get our point across? If we
have to do that for the sake of our truth, we've lost the truth.
AMANPOUR: Well, Pastor Bob Roberts, thank you. This has been incredibly hopeful, this conversation. You've really, you know, really highlighted the
power of community and the need to get back to that. So, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
ROBERTS JR.: Thank you. And thank you for all the years you've been at CNN. I'm one of your fans and I'm grateful for you and I'm going to miss
you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Later in the program, from the best-selling author of "Pachinko," a new story of migration, identity, and the American dream. Min
Jin Lee joins me to discuss her new novel, "American Hagwon."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: You've probably read, or at least heard, of the book, "Pachinko." Millions of copies were sold when it came out back in 2017. And
it made Korean-American author Min Jin Lee a household name. And it became a series on Apple TV. Now, she's back with "American Hagwon."
And while "Pachinko" was historical fiction set in Korea at the end of Japanese colonial rule, this new book takes us to California in the 1990s
via Seoul and Sydney. It's a tale of migration, assimilation, and the pursuit of education and success. These are, of course, poignant and
topical themes in this current moment in the US, in its politics and culture, and issues that are deeply personal for Min Jin Lee herself, as
she told me when we sat down together here in London.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Min Jin Lee, welcome to our program.
MIN JIN LEE, AUTHOR, "AMERICAN HAGWON" AND "PACHINKO": Thank you so much for having me.
AMANPOUR: It's wonderful to have you. I mean, you're legendary now because of certainly "Pachinko." And it was such a massive hit, plus a series. And
people have seen it, read it. Now, "American Hagwon." What were you saying with this book?
LEE: I wanted to write a book trying to understand why education is so important to Koreans, not just in Korea, but around the world. And as I
started to research it, it got kind of depressing because it made it the worst parts about education, about certification, about pedigrees, about
transactionalism and networking. And I found that to be really sad because that's not the way I thought of education.
So, then I decided to pivot and ask the question, how do you live a wise life? Because wisdom is very distinct from education, I think.
AMANPOUR: So, basically, you're saying that you're focusing on the wisdom, the way maybe Americans see it or immigrant communities in America.
Education is to get ahead, maybe to integrate, but to make money, to get ahead, to be a successful immigrant. And you're saying it's time to look a
little differently.
LEE: Yes, very well -- that's very well put. So, I think that if you look at education as only a path to social mobility, then I think that there are
dangerous things that can happen along the way.
AMANPOUR: Well, I want to ask you that. I'm glad you set that up because you've got an epigraph in which you quote the great author, James Baldwin,
who says, the paradox of education is this, that as one begins to become conscious, one begins to examine the society in which one is being
educated. Is that some of the danger that you're talking about?
LEE: Yes, because as soon as you figure out, oh, this is what the world wants of me in my education, then you start to actually follow that script.
But that may not be very good for you or actually good for society.
AMANPOUR: How did you absorb your education? Well, my mother is very laissez-faire. She really doesn't believe in telling a child what to do.
She studied music at a very fancy university in Korea. And then she became a piano teacher.
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So, her whole theory is, you can't make children practice piano. You can't make children do their homework. You just have to say, well, what does a
child want? So, I was actually given the option, do you want to take piano lessons? And I said, no. And she said, fine. And that's really the way she
has approached everything for not just me, but my sisters as well.
AMANPOUR: And you raise it a little bit in the book where one of the main teachers, he sort of says, no one needs to be a superhero. Our children
should not have to save us. What are you saying there, following on what you've just spoken about and about the American dream maybe?
LEE: Yes. So, I think a lot of working-class parents and middle-class parents, and now even upper middle-class parents, that everyone's really
afraid of losing their status because people are feeling very uncertain and precarious right now, especially because there are so many changes. So,
then they keep really pushing this idea that you have to get a very brand name education in order to be OK. And consequently, the children are
feeling a kind of performance anxiety. I keep hearing it over and over again. And there's a lot of breakdown.
So, when a parent spends, let's say, a good portion of their income giving the sort of shadow education to supplement whatever the formal education
is, sometimes parents ask the question of return on investment. Now, children, as we know, aren't investments. Children are children. They're
human beings. They're just younger than we are. And they can't really bear this kind of pressure. So, one of my characters makes that speech.
AMANPOUR: What is your writing technique? You, I think, take a long time to write these epic books. Tell me a little bit about it. When did you come
to reading and writing?
LEE: Oh, I came to reading and writing very early in Korea and then also very early in the United States. But I came very late to speaking.
AMANPOUR: That's -- tell me about it.
LEE: I mean, it was really -- I didn't really start talking publicly until almost middle school.
AMANPOUR: And what does publicly mean, even in school?
LEE: Yes, I didn't really talk.
AMANPOUR: Why?
LEE: So, I talked at home if I had to, but I was incredibly quiet in Korea as well as in America.
AMANPOUR: But is that shy?
LEE: I think I wanted to speak. It's just that I couldn't quite figure it out. And I found other children very intimidating. Adults were very kind to
me because they could tell how much I was struggling. So, I think I was saved by a lot of my teachers.
AMANPOUR: Were you bullied at school?
LEE: Very much so. I was bullied a lot. I was very big for my age. And when we came to America, we didn't have much money. And then also I was
nearsighted and I didn't have corrective eyeglasses until I was probably too late.
AMANPOUR: And so, your refuge was in books?
LEE: In books. Books, reading, my sisters. So, I'm the middle of three girls and they both were very canny and can handle things. So, they watched
over me.
AMANPOUR: So, what made you reach back into your heritage of homeland to write these amazing books that you've written?
LEE: Oh, that's very kind of you. You know, in my books, I'm not a minority. I mean, it may be very well true that I am a minority racially,
like in terms of statistics, that there aren't that many of me in certain groups. However, in my universe, I feel like I can be the center. And I
think in my books, I write about Koreans and we can focus on a person's character rather than a person's race. I think very often when we think
about things just in terms of race, not as a piece of information, but as the whole lens, we lose things. In the same way, ethnicity.
So, when I wrote my second novel, it was about the same race, but about two different countries and two different cultures and how we could hate each
other only because of different languages. And I found that to be really shocking.
AMANPOUR: It must affect you a lot then what you're seeing in the United States right now. I don't know whether it's directed towards Asians, but
certainly towards all sorts of people of color who are being deported and the whole ICE and immigration crackdown. Does that raise, does that bring
back bad memories or does it, how does it affect you?
LEE: I find the focus on deporting poor undocumented immigrants shocking. I think it is the worst of who we are right now. And I think that most
Americans do not like the methods of how ICE is attacking parents and children and people who are working very hard. And I think even employers
are shocked by the fact that this is a terrible economic decision. Employers and churchgoers, we've heard how a lot of churches are trying to
protect their communities.
A lot of these people who have been cracked down on are actually the Catholic community or, you know, other Christian communities and other
communities.
LEE: And taxpayers.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Yes, and taxpayers.
LEE: And taxpayers.
AMANPOUR: And taxpayers. But I bring up faith because it features in your book and it also features in your life a lot, doesn't it? Tell me a little
bit where that came from and how it affects not just your life, but your writing.
LEE: Well, my grandfather was a minister and he was a pastor as well as a headmaster of an orphanage. So, he took care of children who were orphaned
during the war and during the colonial era. So, when there are bombs in Japan, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there are many Korean children who were
sent back and repatriated to South Korea. They came to Busan and my grandfather was in charge of an orphanage.
So, I grew up in the church. I like church and it features very strongly in the way I think about the world. That said, I think for those immigrants in
new countries, not just in America, very often centers of faith are very important in terms of having a third place, another space in which you are
somebody, even if the larger society says you're nothing.
AMANPOUR: Because you tell so many stories, because it's the focus of many of your books, your own community, what are you trying to tell the bigger
world about Koreans, Korean Americans, Koreans who were trapped in the horrors of World War II and post-World War II?
LEE: Oh, I think that Koreans are so misunderstood and perhaps it's because we're not visible in the culture. So, for me, through my research
and through my interviews, I've actually learned the incredible variety of humanity of Koreans. And I write it in English. I write my stories in
English and that's very important because English is the lingua franca and the default language of science and the internet and medicine and
everything in the world. And because of that, and because I write in a Western style, I am taught primarily by 19th century novels that I love.
So, by using the form of the 19th century novel and through my focus, and by the fact that I have the command of English language, I'm able to write
these stories in which I want to talk about and explore Korean humanity and our diversity.
AMANPOUR: The final novel of this quartet is going to be about the Marshall Plan of 1948. It happens to be one of my most favorite things in
the world.
LEE: Oh, really?
AMANPOUR: I mean, just what was achieved --
LEE: Me too. Me too.
AMANPOUR: -- and what turned these horrendous axes, you know, dictatorships, killing machines into some of the strongest democracies in
the world, I think is fascinating. But what is your focus going to be?
LEE: Well, it really starts from that premise. I think that the Marshall Plan was the greatest thing America did in the 20th century. I think it was
very smart. And also, it wasn't just generous, it was good political thinking. So, I think it's very good economics.
My book is called "Marshall Plan" because I'm using it as an organizing metaphor for the remittances and the reconstruction of South Korea. So, in
the 1960s, South Koreans went to West Germany to work as miners and nurses, about 20,000 of them. And they took jobs that nobody wanted in West
Germany. Those remittances and their earnings in Deutschmarks were sent back to South Korea very often. And then those individuals who lived in
West Germany, some stayed, some went back to South Korea and others moved elsewhere.
I'm also writing about South Koreans who went to Europe to become artists because they learned about opera and performance and orchestras and
filmmakers and photographers. They came to England, they got PhDs in literature and classics. And I'm also writing about South Korean women who
married GIs.
So, I'm writing about all these different types of people who left, but they always had a connection to their homeland. And I want to write about
this idea that in the face of devastation, will we respond with generosity rather than punishment?
AMANPOUR: But I guess for me, the parallel, I suppose a little bit is USAID and all that it did after the Marshall Plan and now being rolled back
in such a dramatic way as to almost negate all that trust and goodwill that America had spent so many years cultivating around the world, soft power.
Did you ever think of that when you were --
LEE: I think about it all the time. I think that the damage that has been done to the American so-called brand, I'm not even sure if it can be
repaired because to reach hearts and minds requires not just a one transaction of trust, it's constancy and consistency. And I think that you
know this very well that they must feel deeply betrayed.
[13:35:00]
At the heart of the verb betrayal, what requires is intimacy. And that intimacy and trust, which has been established for a long time, when that's
betrayed, it requires -- that it engenders a kind of not just cynicism, but a kind of hard heartedness. Because once again, somebody has abandoned us.
And I think that's something that we have to really rethink in our current foreign policy.
AMANPOUR: Do you think eventually it can be restored?
LEE: I think we can always restore human relationships, but I think we have to have truth and then reconciliation.
AMANPOUR: So, we have asked you to read a passage that you would like to sort of exemplify the story.
LEE: D.H. was the first to take his mother's hand. Thank you for being our mother. Bo and Mido sat silently, grateful that D.H. could say this for
them. John smiled, our baby lawyer, D.H. is speaking for us. It hurts when I laugh, Helen said. Mido couldn't speak. She had never seen a person die.
And she could not have imagined that the person who had always seemed tireless could transform into the shadowy frame before her eyes. She was
near her mother's feet and she held them in her hands.
Children, Helen said, I will miss your graduations, your weddings, and the births of your children. I will not be here to take care of your wonderful
father who has been my guardian angel. But I want you to know that in heaven, your mother will ask the Lord to protect you and watch over you
every single day. Maybe the Lord will take pity on me for missing so many valuable things with you that he will have to listen to me. I don't know
why I have to go, but I still believe God is fair.
Bo got up from his seat and put his arms around her. Bless us, Amma. Helen reached for her children. I will ask God. I will argue with him. I will ask
the Lord for satisfaction for cutting short my life. The Bible says that God likes a wise servant. So, I will plead for him to take my life in
exchange for the protection of my family.
AMANPOUR: That is so beautiful.
LEE: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: It's so emotional. Wow.
LEE: Who did this to me?
AMANPOUR: You've read it, you wrote it, and it's still as if it's the first time you've thought about that.
LEE: Golly. I just lost a lot of people this year.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, you've given a huge amount of joy to so many people.
LEE: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Through your words, through your writing, through your stories, and through the humanity that you share.
LEE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Coming up after the break, the WNBA finals are in full swing, but what's behind the surging popularity of women's basketball? Author
Tamryn Spruill unpacks the league's checkered history and how it has hit the big time. That's after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: And now, packed out arenas, a billion-dollar team, and viral on- court rivalries, women's basketball is at an all-time high, but how did it get there? Author Tamryn Spruill joins Michel Martin to unpack the WNBA's
history of sexism, racism, and underfunding, and what the future now holds for this growing game.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Tamryn Spruill, thank you so much for joining us.
TAMRYN SPRUILL, AUTHOR, "THE W: A HISTORY OF THE WNBA": It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me here.
MARTIN: You've written this fascinating history of "The W," as the WNBA is called. They're in the middle of their playoffs. I mean, record attendance,
new contract, all the things. But you obviously have been working on this for a while. What gave you the idea?
SPRUILL: Just less than 10 years ago, this wasn't the case. I was editor- in-chief at Swish Appeal, and I was first teaching in academia and teaching college and decided to --
MARTIN: Swish Appeal being what?
SPRUILL: Women's basketball site. And I was the first woman. So, therefore, the first black woman, to run a women's basketball site. And
that was 2018. And in that year, I was speaking to my then eight-year-old niece and asking her, do you even know of any women's basketball players?
And her answer was no. She didn't know Asia Wilson, even though she's living in South Carolina, but she could name LeBron James and Stephen
Curry.
And that really galled me that the women's league had been so pushed into the margins that people didn't know the players, and in this case, that the
league even existed.
MARTIN: Asia Wilson, having gone to the University of South Carolina, powerhouse women's basketball program, you know, the coach, Dawn Staley,
you know, Olympic gold medal winning coach. So, the WNBA tipped off in 1997 with the slogan, We Got Next. Talk about those early years, if you would.
I'm in Washington, D.C. And it was my recollection was that a lot of fan support from the beginning. But that wasn't the case everywhere.
SPRUILL: That's a great point. People felt like in our culture that something major had shifted. You had like Tipper Gore at the first, in
1999, at the first All-Star game. And the soccer team that won the World Cup that year, Mia Hamm and others were there to cheer these women on.
Whitney Houston singing the national anthem. So, there was widespread embrace.
But from the sports world and sports columnists especially, it was a lot of degrading, you know, kind of ruling them out before even game one. And it's
not going to be a slam dunk because women don't dunk the basketball as if that is basketball. And we see today where it's OK, dunking was a thing.
And now, it's the three-point shot. And but still, that's not the full game.
So, a lot of people were -- sports columnists mainly were, you know, pretty derogatory towards the league and its players. And the commentary is very
sexist. And then referring to some players as, oh, they look like these are mugshot pictures and just, you know, racist undertones. And people felt OK
to say this. You know, it's like it's their job to be a columnist for these papers. And this is what they were putting out.
And on the court, the sport act, you know, there was room to grow. The three-point shot wasn't what it is now. The first game and the first couple
of seasons were pretty sloppy. And -- but over time, the game has evolved and the players coming in are much more prepared.
You mentioned Don Staley and we have other former players now teaching in collegiate programs. So, these players now are getting out of college and
are really ready to play at the pro level.
MARTIN: There were some really great players just from the beginning. Would you talk a little bit about them?
SPRUILL: Absolutely. My goodness. Of course, the ones who come to mind that kind of shocked everybody is the Comets, because you have Cynthia
Cooper, who had been playing professionally in Italy for, you know, almost 10 years at that point. She's a mid-30s rookie. And I don't think anybody
expected that a 30 something Cynthia Cooper was going to be as dominant as she was, winning four straight titles. And I believe she was finals MVP
with each of those wins.
[13:45:00]
And of course, you have Sheryl Swoops and Tina Thompson with her and Rebecca Lobo and Vicky Johnson and Teresa Weatherspoon in New York.
And of course, the league originally really wanted an East Coast, West Coast rivalry. They wanted New York, L.A., and that didn't manifest because
the Comets disrupted everybody's plans.
MARTIN: There's just so many interesting structural things that you point out in the book that that I'm not sure a lot of people think about. For
example, there are a lot of gay women in the league. And it seems as though it was not a rush to promote them in the way that they might that they
might have been promoted had they been straight. When did that change or has it changed?
SPRUILL: It's changing. I don't think I would consider it changed until there's somebody like Olivia Miles, who just won Rookie of the Year, is
promoted as the face of the league, the face that you see on the viral commercials when you turn on WNBA League Pass. And the league even
struggled to put Asia Wilson in that position, even though she's straight and in a relationship with an NBA player. She's still a very tall black
woman.
And the league and marketers have not -- again, it goes down to value, have not been able to see the beauty and the marketability in these women and
the women themselves, thanks to social media and their own platforms and getting better agents who are able to put them forth in commercials and
other spaces. And then people kind of catch on. Oh, you know, it is marketable to have two professional basketball players in a secret
commercial, Paige Bueckers and Asia Wilson. Who better to advertise deodorant than professional athletes?
And these are things that have been missing that have not allowed these women to be, you know, cultural mainstream.
MARTIN: But let's just talk about Caitlin Clark for a minute, because this has become like a huge thing this season for lots of reasons. I mean, she's
a great player. She's consistent and making those three-point shots from half court. It's super exciting.
SPRUILL: Oh, yes.
MARTIN: Right? On the other hand, she seems to have been in the minds of some sort of pitted against Angel Reese, who is black, who is from
Baltimore. And the two of them seem to have sort of been cast as these -- as kind of hero and villain. You know, neither of them asked for this. In
fact, Caitlin Clark has said many times, I just want to play basketball. I do not want to participate in this discourse. And Angel Reese is similarly.
She says, I'm here to play. I'm here to win. What's the problem? So, who is it or how is it that this is being sort of placed on them?
SPRUILL: It really does start with media and sports writers and who's in those newsrooms and who's not and what perspectives are being pushed
forward. And working on this book and doing research, I found a study where the 2020 season, when Sabrina Ionescu came into the league, the number of
mentions of her name versus people who were winning had awards, what have you, which is exponentially higher.
And so, when you have two great players coming in and only one is getting the shine, then the fans of the other are, you know, kind of take issue
with it. And of course, online, there's the discourse. But media bias not only impacted individual athletes, but degraded the entire league by not
just showcasing the storylines that are developing from the court and showcasing the players who were doing the amazing things. And letting that
determine the narrative rather than having it imposed.
And because of what Caitlin Clark looks like as a white woman who people can relate to, we have the great white hope where people want to see a
white athlete succeed in sports that are dominated by black people. And I feel like a lot of people put that pressure onto her and that's not going
to allow her to just play.
And coming into a league like this, I feel like the newer players need to understand what these women have been through, especially the ones who've
been in the league a long time and have respect for that position and even want to know what their experiences are, because it is loaded.
MARTIN: So, talk about taking a stand. The 2020 season stands out because after the killings of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd, the Atlanta Dream
players publicly opposed their own co-owner, then Senator, United States Senator Kelly Loeffler, after she criticized the league's support for Black
Lives Matter. So, what is it about that episode that stands out?
[13:50:00]
SPRUILL: First of all, it was a -- the success of their activism was very much a result of the moment when society was at another reckoning point
over race and police violence. I think it was Sue Bird who made the suggestion that we can help force her out by campaigning for her rival in
the Senate race. So, she was up for reelection.
And the players like Elizabeth Williams, who was a big part of the players union. She wanted to sit down with Raphael Warnock and to see if his values
aligned with theirs before they're going to throw their support. And he met with them and the attention they gave his campaign just transformed his
campaign. It just shows the power that this league has to force progress when people really work together.
But we can see how now we have a backlash to that. And I feel like in the 30th season, a lot of the storylines that are coming up are resulting
specifically from that power that was exerted. And then now you're visible. We're going to attack you, you know.
MARTIN: One of the other things that's happened this season is that there seems to be this debate about whether trans women should or should not play
in the WNBA. To my knowledge, there are not any trans women or self- identified trans women currently in the WNBA. But the fact is, this is a thing that has emerged. What do you think it's about?
SPRUILL: I think it's about attacking a league that has been socially progressive and now includes players who maybe don't have those same views
and values. Sophie Cunningham of Indiana Fever, who kind of said something about wanting to protect the locker rooms from biological males, which is a
very dog whistle for anti-trans beliefs. And it's not any current issue that I know of on any team of any player.
MARTIN: Was she talking about in the WNBA, in the W, the professional league, or was she making a general statement about girls' sports at the
lower levels?
SPRUILL: All of sports and at the lower levels. And it's -- you know, there's a movement banning trans kids from playing on various teams. It's
happening all over the country. And it's really her statement was kind of aligned with that movement and what those values and agendas are. And it's,
you know, kind of hijacking a beautiful season, 30th celebratory season, to interject these issues that are not even relevant right now.
There's been one trans player in the league, Layshia Clarendon, who came out first as non-binary and then trans and towards the end of their career,
had -- underwent surgery and is living a great life and doing activism to this day. But it has even been a topic in the league that I am aware of.
But this is the first time there's been a player who's outspoken about issues kind of on the opposite side of, for example, where the league was
in 2020, which is all about equality and justice. So, these are the kinds of internal challenges I feel the league needs to work out.
MARTIN: So, before you go, where do you think this goes next? The current commissioner, Cathy Engelbert, is retiring at the end of this season. As we
pointed out, there's just record attendance and viewership, rapid expansion, rising franchise values, the Golden State Valkyries, the first
billion-dollar team, women's team. OK. So, that's a wow. Where do you think it goes next?
SPRUILL: I feel like the players need to have a common goal that they're going to galvanize around. So, the league was able to survive because
people were just like, we need to keep the league here. We need to grow it. We'll do whatever we can in our communities and to build this thing up.
Now, that there's so much money involved and players are kind of coming in with a kind of privilege because they're getting much more airtime in
college and maybe don't know about the history. So, many of the players now, the stars, were born when the league started. Sabrina Ionescu, Arike
Ogunbowale, '96, '97, they were babies.
And so, I feel that especially around these divisive issues that are kind of being imposed on the league, the union and the players need to work with
the new commissioner to kind of have a hard stance on preserving what it defines as the culture of the WNBA and making sure that that message is in
the world and everything that it does to hopefully tamp down some of these, you know, negative storylines that are creeping up the season.
[13:55:00]
MARTIN: Tamryn Spruill, thank you so much for talking with me.
SPRUILL: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can always find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember,
you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
