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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Stocks Stumble As Trump Clarifies Higher Tariff On China; NYPD: Helicopter Has Crashed Into Hudson River; Harris Has Been Laying Low While Evaluating Political Future. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired April 10, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: I just want to update our viewers before we hand off. We are watching a helicopter crash in the Hudson River near New York City. This is near Jersey City as well. We are going to continue to monitor this.
Peter, thank you so much, Peter Goelz. Mary Schiavo, thank you so much.
And thank you for tuning in here.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT picks up right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Breaking news right now on CNN.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
Red across the board on Wall Street, seconds away from the closing bell. Stocks in a freefall on President Trump's decision to further escalate his trade war with China, and on fears that any tariff deals between the U.S. and other nations won't be enough to prevent a global recession.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's good to have you with us on this Thursday.
We come on the air this Thursday, just like last Thursday, Wall Street preparing for another historic drop across the board. The Dow, S&P and the Nasdaq all in the red, just a day after making record gains.
We also should note we are monitoring a helicopter crash in New York City. The NYPD says a chopper has crashed into the Hudson River off of Manhattan. So, we're going to be keeping a close eye on this story this hour. We'll bring you any developments.
But first, let's start with the economic news. As the markets close, our chief domestic correspondent, Phil Mattingly, is here. And our chief national affairs correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, standing by at the White House. Jeff, I actually do want to start with you, because we saw the
president today at a lengthy cabinet meeting. It was a relatively sober assessment. He conceded there may be some, quote, problems.
Obviously, the markets have not had a great day. What else unfolded there today?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Kasie, the president was convening his cabinet, obviously a day after that dramatic reversal on his sweeping tariff plan. There is much to discuss going forward. There is indeed a trade war to deal with, to work through.
Obviously, the United States and China have been. Escalating their -- their rhetoric and their tariffs as well. But the president was asked about really all of that one day after his big reversal. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We had a big day yesterday. There will always be transition difficulty, but we had a -- in history, it was the biggest day in history, the markets. We think we're in very good shape. We think we're doing very well. Again, there will be a transition cost and transition problems. But in the end, it's going to be -- it's going to be a beautiful thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENY: A transition cost and transition problems, that is the translation for the trillions of dollars lost in the market. But then the president was asked directly about the market decline today, he punted on that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I haven't seen it because I've been here for 2-1/2 hours. So I'll be -- I'll be seeing it. I think Scott went out. Scott, do you want to have a statement on that?
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: Sure. Look, the up two, down one is not a bad ratio. Or up ten, down five. And I think as we have talked about, as we go through the q and settle with these countries who are going to bring us their best offers, we will end up in a place of great certainty over the next 90 days on tariffs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENY: So, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent there being essentially thrown the football, if you will, to explain the markets up two, down one, up ten, down five. Simply trying to make the best out of what was simply not a good situation there. But the treasury secretary saying that there would be certainty after the 90-day period.
So, the president, we've learned, likes to talk about the markets when they're up, when they're down, he has not seen them. But the treasury secretary was handed that task in the cabinet room live today, Kasie. HUNT: Very, very enlightening the way you kind of lined up the
choreography there, I think it says a lot about kind of where we are.
Jeff, always a pleasure to have you. Thank you.
ZELENY: You bet.
HUNT: Phil, so the markets down. They're off -- they're off the lowest point of the day. Can you walk us through kind of what happened with this market and help explain why yesterday was so euphoric, and today just wasn't?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Reality, and I'm not being kind of snarky when I make that point. I think there was a view that any push of a pause button, any willingness to step back from what clearly had put the global economy on the brink on some level, was just a massive step forward for market participants desperate for any sign of moderation.
And I think once they recognize the reality where things actually stand, it was very clear that this is more significant, even in the wake of pulling back on those reciprocal tariffs, as President Trump has called them, than anything that we've seen or has a historical analog.
[16:05:08]
The point I mean by that is this, even in pulling back on those reciprocal tariffs, Kasie, the U.S. average tariff rate actually went up over the course of the last 24 hours. That's just how enormous the scale of the tariffs are that are on China. And this isn't just the average bilateral relationship. These are the world's two largest economies, the world's two biggest geopolitical rivals. The also for the world economic system, they have been the essential bilateral relationship over the course of the last 15 to 20 years.
There has long been a view that they're kind of tiptoeing towards some type of conflict, moving competition into an escalation toward conflict. It seems very clear that on an economic basis, that is very much happened, where there's no longer getting close to it, sort of getting close to the line. No, they're over it right now.
And I think the real concern that you hear from market participants, besides the fact that, you know, in the course of 24 hours, Donald Trump increased tariffs by 50 percent on the second largest economy in the world.
Keep in mind, the 2018, 2019 trade war between Trump's administration and China really the only analog of the last 70 years took place over 14 -- 14 -- 15 -- 14 months. Sorry. The history. Theres a lot of numbers.
Over 14 months, they ramped up to an escalation that wasn't anywhere near within the same zip code of where they're at right now. There is no off ramp that anybody sees at the moment. And I think that is the real concern. When you listen to what U.S. officials are saying, particularly
economic officials on the team who believe very deeply they can win a trade war, and Chinese officials have shown no sign of backing down, market participants looked around today and said, oh, wow, this is actually still pretty disruptive.
HUNT: Pretty disruptive indeed.
Phil Mattingly, thank you for that. Very sort of clear, clear-eyed assessment of where we are and the counting. It's always hard to do on TV. So, thank you. I really appreciate it.
All right. Joining us now in THE ARENA, perhaps one of those officials that Phil was referring to, President Trump's senior trade adviser Peter Navarro.
Sir, thanks very much for being here.
PETER NAVARRO, SENIOR COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT FOR TRADE & MANUFACTURING: Thank you, Kasie. Yeah.
HUNT: My -- my first question to you here, the bond markets got queasy here, according to the president of the United States. And it seems the treasury market still shows some signs of queasiness.
Has what's unfolded here fundamentally altered for the worse, the foundation of our global financial system?
NAVARRO: Look, just -- in a joking matter, I think CNBC is going to sue CNN for intruding on their financial analysis and -- and all of that, and what I just heard in terms of the market analysis.
I mean, like that to me is pure spin. You had the highest rise in stock market history yesterday. Of course, there's going to be a little pullback. The question is what spin are you going to put on it back? It's just a normal retracement after a big day. It's no big deal.
Let's look at where we are. And this is what's the good news for the American people. If you simply look where we are now, we've got a 10 percent global tariff in place and we're taking in about probably $4 billion a day, where we're losing $4 billion. We're taking in about 2 or 3 billion now.
So, that's all to the good. We're clawing back some of that dangerous trade deficit. And we've said a 90-day negotiation in motion where at least 90 countries now want to come in and see us. And what they're going to do is literally offer us collectively, hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars of opportunity to bring manufacturing here, to sell energy there, and do all sorts of things to balance our trade. We are in a beautiful place.
And look, folks in the media keep trying to stir people up, panic people, when yesterday, we had the perfect result from the kind of negotiation Donald Trump does. Now, the bond market -- I don't know what you're upset about the bond market. We have yields coming down, which is great news for people who want to get a mortgage and home builders and all of that market. And for people who have consumer credit debt, that's good news. For people who want to go out and buy a car --
HUNT: We've seen the selling of U.S. treasuries, which, again, is the foundation.
NAVARRO: The auction went fine yesterday, to be clear. The auction went fine. For your viewers, what they had, the treasury opens up a window for, I think, something like 15 or 30 minutes. And there's a bid and we had a lot of participation in it. It went fine. And because the rest of the world, it's the best place to be. So, what's the --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: But at the same time, sir, I think --
NAVARRO: I'm trying to figure out what's the problem? We've just -- we've set in motion this beautiful negotiation schedule.
[16:10:04]
We're going to have India, Australia, Great Britain, the E.U., Japan, South Korea. They're all coming in.
I want to -- they've all been cheating us and were all going to get good deals from them to help the American people. I wish you'd be cheering. I mean, it's supposed to like good news.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: I want -- I want to get to the timing on that in just a in just a moment. But you said that what happened yesterday was beautiful with the stock market going up. It was clearly a reaction to what President Trump decided to do.
Were you in the room? Were you a voice advocating for this pause? And just in a straightforward way, were you in the room with the president when he made this decision?
NAVARRO: So -- so, that's the wrong question to ask. Was I part of the process?
HUNT: No, were you in the room?
NAVARRO: Hang on.
HUNT: Were you in the room?
NAVARRO: It's -- you don't understand how this works. You don't have to be in the room --
HUNT: Well, with President Trump, actually, you often do.
NAVARRO: Hang on, hang on. I never talk about -- and I went to prison for this. I never talk about what happens in there, what happens in the Oval. My point is --
HUNT: I'm not asking what was said, sir. I'm asking, were you there or were you not?
NAVARRO: Let me tell you about the process, okay? The process is we've got Scott Bessent, Howard Lutnick, Jamieson Greer, Kevin Hassett, J.D. Vance, myself, Steve Miran at the CEA.
We all discuss all these things and we provide advice to the president, and he ultimately makes the decision. Everybody was on site and everybody was in the loop on this except for poor Jamieson, because he was up on the Hill doing his job.
HUNT: He was on the Hill testifying.
Let me play a little bit of what --
NAVARRO: People who criticized Jamieson Greer for not knowing about it when he's sitting in front of a congressional hearing. I mean, that's not fair to the guy. I love Jamieson.
HUNT: Well, it's not necessarily fair to send him into the hearing without -- without some heads up here.
But hold on a second. I just want to play for you.
NAVARRO: Sure.
HUNT: What Kevin Hassett, one of the people on this team that you just outlined, had to say earlier today about this watch.
NAVARRO: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR: The person who right at the final minute was with the president when the president decided to do the pause that we had been talking about all along, was Secretary Lutnick. Secretary Lutnick and Secretary Bessent were in the room for the final call with the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Now, is there daylight?
NAVARRO: Yeah, what I heard Kevin Hassett say was the people who were in the room were, were -- were the ones who had been talking to the rest of it.
It doesn't matter who's in the room. The boss calls it, whatever. Thats not the point. The point is that this team is the best team in history.
We provide him the appropriate set of advice. Every one of us on the team has a different skill set that combines to the collective wisdom of the group, and the boss makes the decision. And look, it -- Kasie, please would you give us some -- some kudos here for what happened? We're on a path now -- we're in over 90 days. We're going to have every country come in who's admitted? They cheated us, given us hundreds of billions of dollars back for the American people and bringing investment here.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: I mean, that's what happened. I don't know how you spin it any other way. What's that?
HUNT: So, we've got -- we've got a graphic that shows other recent trade deal negotiations. Okay? We can put it up for viewers with Central America, 16 months. The USMCA, 15 months. South Korea, 14 months.
NAVARRO: Ah, ah, ah.
HUNT: Australia, 14 months. We tried to do it with the U.K. Our strongest allies. It was paused after three years and seven months.
NAVARRO: You're missing -- Kasie --
HUNT: How can you do any single one of these in 90 days, let alone all of them?
NAVARRO: Hang on, you're missing the whole point.
HUNT: Am I --
NAVARRO: Those kind of deals -- yes. Let me explain. Let me explain. The kind of deals like the renegotiation of NAFTA and all of that, that's governed by -- by a set of rules and laws that will make -- take time to do that. What we're going to do is --
HUNT: Right, but like the U.S./U.K. one is not under that.
NAVARRO: Hang on, hang on, we have the capability.
HUNT: It's bilateral and direct.
NAVARRO: Kasie, Kasie --
HUNT: Continue.
NAVARRO: I'm telling you, we -- I'm telling you, we have the ability to come up with a deal. Jamieson Greer, Howard Lutnick, Scott Bessent, whoever is sitting in the room with Japan or South Korea, the boss is going to be the lead negotiator and we can get that done.
And one of the things we're going to were going to do is -- you're seeing all those law firms that are giving us like $100 million at a crack, a free legal advice. We're going to hopefully have them very much involved in all of this. And we do stuff in Trump time, which is to say, as quickly as possible. So, do you think we can get a deal done? Yes, we're going to get those
things done very quickly. We will do that. And it's not going to be USMCA taking 18 months to do it. It's not that kind of deal. It's a different framework.
HUNT: Okay. I guess we're going to -- we're about to put that to the test.
NAVARRO: Let's see what happens. Okay? Ninety days, we're going to have announcing deals and we're going to get them done. That -- take that to the bank.
HUNT: So let me ask you this. You ran through the list of people that are part of this kind of brain trust, right? One person you didn't mention was Elon Musk, who of course, was out there, said that he would like to apologize for bricks -- to bricks, for saying that you were dumber than bricks because it was insulting to bricks.
[16:15:12]
My question to you is, have you patched it up with Elon Musk?
NAVARRO: Elon and I are fine. We're great. It's no problem. I said that earlier. It's like it's no problem. It's like it's no problem. Look, he's -- he's got a job to do. I got a job to do. The president of values -- Elon, he's doing a great job on DOGE. And he's paying a very heavy price. And I feel sorry for him on that.
Nobody should have their -- their cars firebombed by crazy people. That's just wrong. And nobody should be doing the kinds of things they're doing.
But, look, the amount of waste, fraud and abuse. I hope CNN will at least acknowledge that a lot of that waste, fraud and abuse hurts Democrats as well as Republicans.
HUNT: Yeah. Look, let's just stay on trade, though.
NAVARRO: My job is trade, Elon does DOGE.
HUNT: I see.
NAVARRO: And the train doesn't meet. And it's s -- it's great. I mean, there's -- that's a -- that's a tempest in a teapot and it's in my rearview mirror and it's in his. And we're fine.
HUNT: Okay. Fair enough. Finally, before I let you go, sir, there's been the president when he -- before he put out his decision to pause these tariffs, he wrote, on his truth social platform that it was a good time to buy stock. There were a lot of people who traded stock in between when that happened and when the pause was announced.
Do you think that there is the possibility for insider and inappropriate trading in that?
NAVARRO: I saw that -- I saw like -- like people try to make a big deal out of that and come on, that's just such, such a stretch. I mean, come on, that's just a stretch.
I -- I won't even dignify that with any analytics on that. That's just silly.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: Did you trade any stock in the last 48 hours?
NAVARRO: No, I don't trade stocks once I get in here. It's not what I -- it's not my job to trade stocks. Okay?
Nancy -- Nancy Pelosi does that. Her husband did that. I mean, the amount of insider trading that has happened on Capitol Hill is stunning. I've never seen any of that done in in this administration or the previous administration when Trump ran it. That -- we -- we don't do that.
HUNT: Okay.
NAVARRO: I've never been accused of it.
HUNT: All right.
NAVARRO: Nancy Pelosi has.
HUNT: We -- I was asking about you. She comes on. I will absolutely ask her.
Peter Navarro, very grateful to have you on.
NAVARRO: Hey, Kasie. I love the tough questions and always happy to talk to CNN. This is -- these are not partisan issues. These are American issues. And I hope we can find some common ground.
HUNT: Well, I appreciate you being willing to come on the show and answer the questions, sir. Thanks very much for being here.
NAVARRO: Any time.
HUNT: All right.
NAVARRO: Any time. Bye-bye.
HUNT: Okay. Coming up next here, our panel here to weigh in on what we just heard from Peter Navarro and where the president trade war -- trade president's trade war goes next.
Plus, we're going to bring you an update on that helicopter crash in the waters off New York City news coming in on an ongoing search for the people who are on board.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:22:31]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back. We do have breaking news this hour. The New York Police Department
says a helicopter has crashed into the Hudson River.
Let's go to CNN's Gabe Cohen.
Gabe, I know this just happened. What -- what do we know? What don't we know? Bring us up to speed.
GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So, Kasie, this is really a developing breaking news story. Minute by minute getting updates here.
Our colleague John Miller is there along the Hudson at the scene, and he is being told by authorities that three people have been pulled out of the water either from the helicopter or the area surrounding it, and have been taken to the hospital at this point, including at least one child.
We don't have an update yet on their condition, but we do know that they have been transported to get medical attention. Authorities also telling John Miller that they were told at the scene that at least one person is still missing, either in the water or inside that helicopter, and it is possible that others could be there as well.
And so, you can see that -- that massive response there on the water, what looks like several up to a dozen first responder vessels, dive teams are in the water trying to determine where that individual or others might be at this moment, Kasie. We don't know, of course, what caused this crash, but it appears to be in that area between Jersey City and the Hoboken area, and Lower Manhattan.
So, we're going to keep following this and bring you updates.
HUNT: Okay. And, of course, we will. And Gabe will be back with any more information. We do get on this unfolding difficult story.
All right. Let's go back now to our other story that's breaking this hour. And that is, of course, the markets. President Trump reiterating this afternoon that the pause in tariffs is, in fact a pause and that his original reciprocal tariffs could return in July if these deals are not made.
The president also not ruling out an extension of the 90-day pause. How's that for certainty?
Now, Trump's former vice president telling the Hill that Trump's tariffs are not only having a significant economic impact, but also a political one, and that the administration runs the risk of hurting Republicans in the 2026 midterm elections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I really believe that when people voted to send President Trump back to the White House, what I heard traveling across the country in the last four years was people wanted to see us get back to the policies of the Trump-Pence administration. I don't think the American people were voting for what would amount to the largest peacetime tax hike in American history, which the --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[16:25:03]
HUNT: All right. Our panel is here. Former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, CNN contributor; Jamie Gangel, special correspondent, I believe; Xochitl Hinojosa, Democratic official of the DNC, formerly in the Department of Justice; and Brad Todd, longtime Republican strategist.
Welcome to all of you. Thank you all for being here.
I honestly kind of like to start with what we heard there from the trade adviser, Peter Navarro, about this.
Congressman, why don't I go first to you? Because I realize, obviously, the Republican Party is not your -- under Trump is not your home, but the free trading version of it sure was. And now here we are with the president's advisor standing on the lawn telling us all of those things. What's your reaction?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, this was an amazing -- I was sitting here thinking about because, you know, people will call me a RINO, right? And that's fine. And -- but I realized, like, I still believe the same stuff I believed ten years ago in Congress and I didn't change.
But the party's position on free trade has completely gone out the window. It's one thing also to take on China, and I think probably everybody would say, you know, tariffs have a place when it comes to pushing back against unfair trading practices, but you are hurting yourself as well.
But when you talk about the tariffs that are being levied now, how is that defensible? I mean, a $20 toy that you buy from China is now like $43, just on the basis of that. If you buy something $100 from China, it's now $220.
And of course, we are close to having a labor shortage. That takes five years for factories to get built in this country. And it just doesn't make a ton of sense.
So, I don't know what the obsession is with trade imbalances. Like I have a huge trade imbalance with Arby's. Like I've never given them food. I only give them money, right? And they give me food.
But you know, this is what the president is focused on. And I think the issue real quick is not going to be the stock market up and downs. That's all emotional. It's going to be the stuff that starts setting in now, which is the real economic heartache, the inflation and everything else. That's where people are going to feel it.
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hold on. Inflation actually is down. March is inflation was lower. Month over month.
KINZINGER: Before all this, yeah.
TODD: Month over month for the. That's the first time that's happened in five years.
KINZINGER: Yeah.
TODD: More mortgages are now dropped. They're not as cheap or cheaper to buy a home than it has been in five years. So, there are positive indicators out there.
I looked at Peter Navarro's comments today, and there's no country song. It said, mom has come around to daddy's way of thinking and I halfway wondered to -- to listen there to Peter Navarro talking like Scott Bessent the secretary of the treasury, which says we're going to have really tough actions on China and we're going to negotiate with everybody else.
That's a little bit of difference from what Peter Navarro had said previously, and there is a strong path there. Tariffs on China are popular. I mean, Bernie Sanders sponsors one of those bills every year on the Democrat side.
So, we can wage a trade war with China. We probably can't wait to trade war with the whole world at one time. And that's what I heard him say there.
HUNT: Yeah, well, Jamie Gangel, it seems to me that -- I take Brad's point on China. I think there is sort of broad support as well among many Americans that the United States should take on China.
The question seems to be, did by waging this war, trade war globally, is it impossible to undo the damage that's already been done? And is part of that pushing the rest of the world toward China, viewing them as a more stable place to do the business that they want to do?
Then, I mean, that was what part of what made America so strong for so long is like, this was the place where you could you could bet your money here because we were a country of laws and rules and norms, and it was a safe place to be. And now it seems like it might be. Not anymore.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: And we also have to worry about treasuries, which we've seen disaster. Look, Peter Navarro said all of this is, quote, beautiful. Phil Mattingly described today as reality. I am going to go with Phil Mattingly for -- for reality.
The word that I think answers all of this is uncertainty because the business, the markets, everybody hates uncertainty. And that is not going away. The reality is that 90-day pause may be maybe not. Nobody knows what Donald Trump is going to wake up and decide tomorrow. And that is a real problem for the economy long term.
HUNT: Yeah. So, Xochitl, Janet Yellen did an interview with one of my colleagues today. And she had a pretty stark way of explaining what -- what has happened here. Let's watch what Janet Yellen had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANET YELLEN, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY: We had a very well- functioning economy and President Trump has taken a wrecking ball to it. I'm afraid I could not give it a passing grade.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: A wrecking ball.
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's right. She also said during that interview, it's the worst self-inflicted wound. And I think that's right. And I think that the White House is finally realizing it, which is why you have that 90-day pause, which is why they might extend it even more.
[16:30:01]
But you're right. I mean, there is so much uncertainty in the economy right now. If you are a business owner and you are trying to make plans, you cannot make plans right now because you don't know what's going to happen in a few months, right? You don't even know what's going to happen in the next year. And that's not how businesses work.
So, what happens? That's bad for workers and that's bad for our economy. And so, I think right now, you're seeing a White House that is struggling. And I think that the interview earlier with Pence is spot on.
It is going to hurt Republicans in the midterm elections if they don't figure out a concrete strategy where they can tell the American people exactly, okay, there might be short term pain. How long? They still haven't told us how long, and they haven't told us what that pain will look like.
And so, if the American people continue to feel that pain, continue to see the chaos, it will be terrible for Republicans in the midterm elections.
TODD: Well, pains -- never pains never a politically powerful message. And I would always argue that you should sell pain relievers and not pain if I'm -- if I'm arguing.
But I do want to push back on one thing, though. Janet Yellen, talk about the self-owned mistake she oversaw the Biden administration policies that pushed U.S. inflation to record levels. The self-owned that administration was driving energy costs up on purpose. So, I don't think we ought to be giving lessons to anybody.
HINOJOSA: Inflation also happened because of the COVID pandemic.
TODD: Well, also when you spend zillions of dollars out of the government and drive up energy costs, it will go up.
KINZINGER: And let me just say -- you know, and this is kind of my conservative viewpoint on the economy, which is all the economy is, it's not even a real thing, right? It's just how we measure human interactions. That's all it is, how we measure. I buy, sell, you know, trading of goods, that's it.
And as conservatives, we always believe that that kind of naturally shook itself out in a good way. And it made us stronger, more wealthy when people were allowed to do what they want to do. Anytime the government comes in, particularly, a government doesn't really know what it's doing and tries to tinker with those human interactions. You always cause damage.
And I think that's the big concern right now. Again, you can pause this for 90 days all you want. All that means is we at least have at least another 90 days of uncertainty, which means nobody's investing. Nobody's bringing their capital home either, because they don't know. Maybe they don't need to. So that's --
TODD: I want to go to uncertainty real quick if I can, though. Donald Trump has always said that he believed we had to reshore manufacturing here. In fact, in 2019, he said businesses should immediately start looking for an alternative to China.
One of the problems here is corporate America did not hear him, and corporate America to medium didn't make alternate plans. They didn't move production to Brazil or Mexico or back here to the United States.
He's been very clear. It was item number five in the Republican platform. Item number five. They didn't -- they didn't see how he was predictable.
KINZINGER: I agree with you. But since COVID, the amount of reshoring or nearshoring to the United States has been record breaking, this has been natural, including Canada and Mexico, who we are now penalizing, who have had companies that reshored from China. A lot of this happened naturally.
TODD: I'm with you on the Canada tariffs. I think they're a little odd, but businesses it is time to get out of China. That's just it.
KINZINGER: I agree.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, new comments just coming in from Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. What she's now saying about her appearance in the Oval Office with President Trump and the criticism around it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:37:31]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're honored to have Gretchen Whitmer from Michigan, great state of Michigan. And she's been -- she's really done an excellent job and very good person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer defending her visit to meet with to the White House to meet with President Trump. She made a surprise appearance in the Oval Office yesterday as the president signed executive orders.
Whitmer defended herself, saying its part of her job for the people of Michigan.
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GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D), MICHIGAN: I was going in for a meeting and they walked me into a press conference. It was not where I wanted to be or planned to be or would have liked to have been. I disagreed with a lot of the stuff that was said and the actions that were taken, but I stayed in the room because I needed to make the case for Michigan, and that's my job.
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HUNT: Michigan is, of course, going to be deeply affected by Trump's tariffs over the course of the next 90 days. Earlier in the day, though, before her Oval Office appearance, Whitmer went out of her way to not criticize the president in an economic speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHITMER: I understand the motivation behind the tariffs, and I can tell you here's where President Trump and I do agree we do need to make more stuff in America. I'm not against tariffs outright, but it is a blunt tool. You can't just pull out the tariff hammer to swing at every problem without a clear, defined end goal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right.
Joining us now to discuss Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan.
Congresswoman, thank you so much for being here.
Do you think that it was the right thing to do for Governor Whitmer to go to the Oval Office under those circumstances?
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): Look, Kasie, she did not -- look, the governor's job is to fight for the people of the state of Michigan. I do not believe she knew. I know for a fact she did not know she was going to be walked into a press conference that were executive orders that she did not agree with or other things that were going to be said, to the press were going to be said.
But people do not know that we have had devastating ice storms up north Michigan. People are going to be without power for 3 to 4 weeks. We need FEMA. We need aid desperately. Her job is to go in there and fight for that.
She went in there to fight -- we've got Selfridge Air Force Base here, which is critical. It's in John James' district. It's critical to the state that that stay here.
She has been fighting with everybody, with the Biden administration, Trump administration, to keep that viable. She also is trying to protect the Great Lakes and from carp and has been trying to get federal assistance.
So, you got to work with people across the aisle sometimes. And when the man is president, you got to ask him for that help.
I think she got backed into a corner. She didn't plan on being backed into. And it's a very complicated time when you have responsibility to deliver for the people of your state.
HUNT: Do you think it will impact -- we know she probably wants to run for president in 2028 -- considering how the base might react?
DINGELL: You know what? First of all, it is a lifetime between now and 2028. And let's get through 2026. It's a lifetime before those elections next year.
The base is upset with a lot of Democrats, and they're upset with a lot of Democrats in Michigan. I am not hiding from them. I'm doing regular town halls. I'm talking to people. I know how they feel.
But I'll tell you something that we all need to be talking about right now is our freedoms. And start with freedom of speech. The threats that are being held over university, law firms, institutions should scare all of us and they're real. So, there are a whole lot of people trying to figure out, how do you make sure that organizations, institutions, states that need help, get the help they need and still make sure you're fighting for the things that matter and the values, and we all need to be talking and fighting for freedom of speech.
HUNT: Yeah. Let's talk for a minute about the tariffs and how they are affecting your home state of Michigan, because clearly, what the governor was trying to say in that speech is something that I've heard from voters in Michigan when I visit the state.
You know, they say this offshoring, the changes that have happened over decades have really, really hurt Michigan. What are you hearing when you go home and you go to union halls? How are people feeling about this?
DINGELL: So, I make a point, according to union halls right now because of this, and I'm someone who understands this issue because I've lived it for years. I worked for the auto industry for 30 years.
Here's a reality: NAFTA was one of the worst trade policies we saw in the history of this country. And it is a fact that we saw jobs shipped overseas, particularly to Mexico, because of NAFTA.
President Trump, I told you -- many people didn't believe me -- President Trump was going to win in 2016 over NAFTA and other trade issues. He renegotiated NAFTA. We have USMCA.
We do need to bring things like steel production, pharmaceutical production back to this country. But what we've witnessed in the last few weeks has been total chaos. It has not made sense. You've seen the market totally crash.
Every company needs certainty. And there's no certainty. I was listening to the program before I came on. None of these companies have certainty. And I'm also going to tell you, I think we need to stop treating Canada and Mexico the same way. If you're in Michigan, Canada is our friend.
What they are doing to Canada is not making sense. And quite frankly, could in the end really threaten things like nurses coming over from Canada. There are 2,000 nurses working in the Detroit hospitals a day. If they don't come, our hospitals aren't going to be able to operate.
So, this chaos isn't helping anybody. We need -- we need certainty. We need a strategy, an effective strategy.
HUNT: Before I let you go, Congresswoman, I do want to ask you for an update on the -- there's going to be an open senate seat in Michigan. Obviously, Democrats have been working to recruit candidates into the race. And today, Congresswoman Kristen McDonald Rivet said that she was not, in fact, going to throw her hat in the ring.
Were you surprised by that? And are you confident Democrats have the kind of candidate they need to keep that seat?
DINGELL: So, Kasie, I'm going to be really honest. Michigan's ground zero is going to be a very competitive state. I'm very blunt with all of you when I say we're going to have to fight to keep those seats.
We have a lot of people that are interested in running for that Senate seat. I think it's going to be one of the most competitive primaries, and whoever comes through that primary, we want to make sure can win the general. I think there's another candidate that people don't talk about that's an African American, former speaker of the Michigan legislature that's looking at this as well. People don't talk to her as much.
I was not surprised by today's announcement, but this is we got strong people running for the seat, and it's going to be one of the most competitive races you've seen in a long time, primary and general.
HUNT: Right. For sure.
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, thank you so much for being here today. I hope you'll come back soon.
[16:45:02]
I really appreciate it.
All right.
DINGELL: Thank you, Kasie.
HUNT: Of course. Up next, what former Vice President Kamala Harris is thinking as she
nears a decision on whether to run for governor of California.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Because, you know, there were many things that we knew would happen. Many things -- I'm not here to say I told you so.
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HUNT: Not here to say I told you so. That is one of the very few times that we have seen Kamala Harris step into the political fray since she lost to President Trump back in November.
[16:50:00]
It actually is a pretty sharp contrast to others in her party, including her running mate. Tim Walz, he's been out there, he's been very vocal about why they lost, and he responded to that moment that I told you so moment here on CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D), MINNESOTA: When I criticize, I'm criticizing myself. I own this. I'm part of the ticket. And somebody has to come up with a strategy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, questions are now swirling about Kamala Harris's future. So -- and for months, we've been reporting she's considering running for governor of California and plans to make a decision by this summer.
Today, "The New York Times" is reporting this, quote: Some of her closest allies say she's leaning against another White House run in 2028 and instead toward a campaign for governor of California in 2026.
Her political choice is binary. She has told people she can run for governor or president, but not both.
My panel is back.
Jamie Gangel, I have to say, the sort of reporting conversations I've had line up with how, you know, Kamala Harris has been thinking about this. She seems to be nearing a decision.
Part of this is about how the run went and how she might be viewed if she were to run for president in 2028. What are you hearing about?
GANGEL: So, I spoke to someone very close to her today, and they said, at this moment she does not know what she is going to do yet. And that makes sense. It's -- look, it's going to take some time to process. She was just vice president for four years. That was a pretty grueling 107 days, a very brutal loss.
So, we can all remember al gore when he lost also, a bruising loss, grew the beard, went off into -- into the wilderness. A lot of people want her to run for governor. But I think at this moment, people close to her say she has not made a decision yet.
HUNT: Xochitl?
HINOJOSA: That's right. I'm one of the people who wants her to run for governor and not for president. I will say I think she would make a tremendous governor.
I think what the party needs right now is they need a competitive primary process. In 2016, when Hillary Clinton lost, there was a brief period of time where people started talking about -- well, what -- would Hillary Clinton run again? Everybody was like, God, no, you know, we love her. She is wonderful. She should be out there.
But we need a fresh start. And the reason that we won in 2020 is because we had a competitive process with dozens of candidates and lots of debates, and we were able to talk about the issues and vet everyone and have that process. And we ended up winning.
We didn't have this process last time, and I think voters really wanted it. And what we saw is she had 107 days to run an amazing campaign. It was flawless for what the situation she had -- was put into and for inheriting Joe Biden's staff that she didn't even get to pick.
But the reality is, is that there needs to be a fresh start. And I'm not sure -- if she should run for governor, I'm not sure she should run for president.
HUNT: Camera didn't catch your reaction to the word flawless.
TODD: Well, it wasn't a flawless campaign.
HINOJOSA: It was flawless --
TODD: But -- but I also think that she should absolutely run for president. And we should not have a primary again. Kamala Harris is the best thing --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Run for president. Kamala, run, run, run.
HINOJOSA: Don't listen to anything he does.
HUNT: Go ahead.
KINZINGER: Well, I was just going to say I personally if I was advising her, I would say governor of California. Seems like it'd be a pretty cool job.
And I think -- I'm of this belief and I don't have any names. I don't know, but I think whoever the Democratic nominee in 2028 is, is absolutely nobody we're talking about right now. I think it's going to be, you know, it's Bill Clinton in 1992, I guess, when he came out of nowhere. That's what I think it's going to be.
And it's not going to be Gavin Newsom, because Gavin Newsom has tried to pivot too much. Having Steve Bannon on his podcast and saying, well, let's just understand what this insurrection thing is about and let's get to know each other. And it's not going to be him.
But if I was her, I mean, she's probably a shoo-in, I would guess, close -- as close to a shoo-in as you can get for governor of California. Seems like it'd be a pretty fun job.
HUNT: Yeah, that's -- that's certainly part of the calculation.
Jamie Gangel, we were talking, of course, with Debbie Dingell about Gretchen Whitmer and her chances here. I actually tend to agree with the congressman. I wonder if it's going to be someone that's just not on the radar. You know, you have people like Stephen A. Smith suddenly considering they're going to, you know, the role of celebrity in our politics is in a different place than it ever was before.
But what is -- what's kind of your view of what Whitmer did, for example? I mean, I could see that landing in plenty of ad in a Democratic primary.
GANGEL: Look, I don't ever disagree with Debbie Dingell. We went to college together. I actually think that what she said is true.
Look, that was clean up on aisle six. She did not want to be there. That's also the chance you take when you walk into Donald Trump's White House that you can find yourself. She knows it wasn't good. Her staff knows it wasn't good. Her allies know it wasn't good.
But I do agree with Congresswoman Dingell that the presidential election is a long way off.
[16:55:00]
A lot can change between now and then.
HINOJOSA: Yeah, absolutely. I think that the Oval Office visit actually ended up being a distraction. She gave a very good speech yesterday on tariffs, and that was getting a lot of coverage. And now, we're talking about how she was sitting in the back sort of hiding during this Oval Office.
HUNT: Oh, I asked for the Homer Simpson gift.
HINOJOSA: So --
TODD: I got some hard news for Democrats -- to win in 2028, in the general election, your nominee is going to have to move toward where Donald Trump is, not all the way, but toward him some. And you better start admitting that right now. KINZINGER: I think -- I tend to agree, not necessarily to what Donald
Trump believes, but I think Democrats have to show fight and they have to moderate, by the way, like radical moderates. Thats what this country needs.
HUNT: Radical moderates.
KINZINGER: Yeah.
HUNT: It's not an oxymoron.
KINZINGER: No.
HUNT: All right. That does it for us today. Thank you, guys, all for being here.
Thanks to you at home for joining us as well.
Don't go anywhere. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right after a quick break.
