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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Salvadoran President Says He Doesn't "Have The Power" To Return Wrongly Deported Maryland Man To U.S.; Soon: Suspect In Shapiro Arson Attack Will Be Arraigned; Katy Perry, Gayle King Aboard First All- Female Blue Origin Flight. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired April 14, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: The maker of jet-puffed marshmallows is now offering this sweet alternative, $2 marshmallow dye kits. Each one comes with jumbo egg sized marshmallows, six colors tongs decorating pens.

It's a fun, mess free twist. And let's be honest, who wouldn't rather eat a marshmallow than a raw egg? I'm glad we just didn't ad for them.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: That's true. That's -- you're welcome. They do look better than just eating an egg. And if you lose one, it's not going to go as bad, you know.

SANCHEZ: Good point, good point.

DEAN: Yeah.

SANCHEZ: Hey, thanks so much for joining us.

"THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.

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KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's the presidents versus the prisoner.

Let's head into THE ARENA. President Trump hosts El Salvador's strongman at the White House and appears to welcome his claim that he's powerless to return a wrongly deported Maryland man to the U.S.

Plus, new CNN reporting on the arson attack at the now charred and gutted home of Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. Stand by for details and reaction from fellow Democratic Governor Katie Hobbs of Arizona.

And the politics surrounding a star studded all female space launch. Pop star Katy Perry, the journalist Gayle King and others briefly venturing beyond Earth's atmosphere.

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HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Monday. We'll check in on the market close and tariff turmoil in just a

moment. But first, President Trump and his allies are making it clearer than ever that they have no plans to pursue the return of a Maryland man mistakenly deported to El Salvador's brutal mega prison, despite a Supreme Court ruling that the administration must facilitate his return.

The president getting back up from El Salvador's authoritarian leader Nayib Bukele, as they sat side by side in the Oval Office along with top administration officials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAYIB BUKELE, SALVADORAN PRESIDENT: How can I return him to the United States like I smuggle him into the United States? I don't have the power to return him to the United States.

PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: That's up to El Salvador if they want to return him. That's not up to us. If they wanted to return him, we would facilitate it. Meaning, provide a plane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: It's like a twisted game of not it with life and death stakes.

So, if the president of El Salvador doesn't have the power to return, someone held in his notorious prison who does have the power. According to team Trump, it is not the Supreme Court or any other court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: No court in the United States has a right to conduct the foreign policy of the United States. It's that simple. End of story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Well, it's certainly not the end of the story for Kilmar Abrego Garcia or his family. It's not the end of the story in the courts, either. The president's deportation of hundreds of alleged gang members to El Salvador is facing multiple ongoing legal challenges.

President Trump seems unmoved by that. And in fact, today he went farther than he's gone before in saying he might deport some people who are U.S. citizens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If it's a homegrown criminal, I have no problem. Now, we're studying the laws right now. Pam is studying. If we can do that, that's good.

And I'm talking about violent people. I'm talking about really bad people. Really bad people. Every bit as bad as the ones coming in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, our panel is here.

But first, let's get started at the White House, where we find CNN's Jeff Zeleny.

Jeff, good to see you.

The president there are a number of things that made headlines out of this appearance today. There was, of course, what's happening to this one person, but also this bigger picture question about what they're looking at in terms of who they can deport.

What did you learn?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I mean, Kasie, it was an extraordinary scene there. Yet another leader in the Oval Office. But this was so different from every other leader we have seen, and this was because this is someone who President Trump has a transactional business relationship with. In fact, that prison in El Salvador is a central part of what has become the Trump immigration plan.

But extraordinary to see both leaders there, the president of the United States, as well as the president of El Salvador, essentially passing the buck a hot potato, if you will. A man's life, of course, is on the line. The Maryland man who was deported and the administration, you know, called it an error. They admitted wrongly deporting him.

But yet one administration official after another from the Attorney General Pam Bondi, to the Secretary of State Marco Rubio, basically were, you know, defending the administration, doing very little to bring him home. Of course, if President Trump would say President Kelly, it is time to bring home Mr. Garcia, that would almost certainly happen. You could see the power dynamic in that relationship.

But you're right, Kasie, it was at the end of this extraordinary session when the President Trump was talking about homegrown criminals. Of course, U.S. citizens who are convicted of heinous crimes. Well, no matter how heinous they are, incarceration in the United States has always been suitable for any type of criminal, never deporting them to El Salvador.

[16:05:03]

So that was something else entirely. Now, of course, he said, if the laws allow us to do this. So, he walked right up to the line. Didn't cross it necessarily.

But for all the meetings we have seen in the Oval Office, for all the ones we have watched, Kasie, it was extraordinary to watch these two young -- young leader and, of course, President Trump, really solidifying their relationship there. One that is going to be central for the immigration plan, and many deportations likely to come. HUNT: That was -- I was also struck by the youth of El Salvador's

leader, sitting there next to President Trump.

Jeff Zeleny, always great to have you start off. Wow. Start off the show for us. Thank you very much.

All right. Our panel is here, CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams, CNN political commentator, Republican pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson, former New York Democratic congressman Max Rose, and the former Republican House speaker pro tem, Patrick McHenry.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you all for being here.

Elliot, I do want to start with you, because we did have this other piece that that Donald Trump said about this question about whether or not he is going to deport people who are citizens of the United States. And he says, we always have to obey the laws. But we have also had homegrown criminals. And he walks through a series of crimes they may have committed.

He says, I'd like to include them in the group of people to get out of the country, but you'll have to be looking at the laws on that. So, what are they?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you would have to -- well, Donald Trump is really only constrained by who tells him no. And if Congress and people around him will tell him that he can't engage in unconstitutional behavior, then he can't.

Until that point, even stating these blatantly unconstitutional statements is more of what we've seen from Donald Trump.

Now, where would he run into the law here? Number one, the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution, which bars cruel and unusual punishment. Anyone who is removed from American prisons and put in a prison in El Salvador, that is not up to the standards of the Federal Bureau of Prisons or how we incarcerate people in America, would have an easy on its face, plain as day, Eighth Amendment challenge.

Then, the Constitution also has -- we've heard the terms from high school, habeas corpus. Someone can challenge the terms of their confinement. They'd be able to sue to protect their rights.

So, there's all kinds of laws. Not even these rinky-dink federal laws passed by Congress. Literally, the Constitution says clearly how people ought to be incarcerated. And it's language that we've relied on for 250 years or however many it is.

So, yes, Donald Trump's almost never bluffing, I think. And I and we have plenty of evidence.

HUNT: There are plenty of examples where he floats something and then he does.

WILLIAMS: and normalizes it and people it gets in the water and then people say, oh no, he's just kidding. But also the law is remarkably clear on this going back centuries.

HUNT: Kristen Soltis Anderson, can you help us understand where you think or see the politics on this being? Because obviously, immigration was an issue that Donald Trump won on, right? Americans were unhappy with what was going on at the border. They responded to his message that he was going to stop people coming illegally.

It's also a very clear question when you say to people, if you're in America illegally and you've committed a crime, you should go back to where you came from, right? Voters will say, yes, we want that. What is your understanding of what they might say in response to this, this idea that you could be a U.S. citizen and this could happen to you?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. So, on the one hand, Donald Trump does have a fairly long leash from American voters because of the perceived failures of the last administration. When we asked, which party do you trust more on immigration Republicans win by double digits. And even in data that I've seen as fresh as today, Donald. Trump's job approval on immigration remains higher than his job approval on almost any other issue.

With that said, it's not as high as it was a month ago, and I do think that it's a kind of issue where if it was clear cut and if the folks he were deporting were clearly criminals, I think he would still be getting very, very, very high numbers for this. I do think when you now have so much attention being put on this one story of this one man who the administration itself initially said this was an administrative error. It's sort of putting the focus on the least popular pieces of this deporting somebody by mistake, and then saying you don't have the power, claiming to be powerless is not normally Donald Trump's M.O.

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, Patrick McHenry, where -- where do you come down on this? Because, you know, it does seem to me to be there's probably some people out there that that look around and think like, could this happen to me? You know, I live here. I'm from here.

PATRICK MCHENRY (R), FORMER SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE: Take the L. That's what you do, and move on because the immigration policy of this administration is broadly and deeply popular with the American people. But when you see a due process fail, you think about a family member. You don't think about somebody who is in prison. You think of somebody in your family.

And so, these are the constitutional norms that have to be rightly checked by the courts, that over time, the party out of power recognizes those norms actually are really powerful and important, those checks and balances. And when you're in power, you're frustrated by them. But on something like this, take the L, move on.

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This is clearly a case of -- of an administrative mistake.

HUNT: And you think they should be bringing the guy back? MCHENRY: Yeah. Get over it. Like move on. Now, they're holding -- a

couple of things can be true. Like this is the complex thing, right? You can -- there's clearly a case of administrative failure. There is a due process failure here that that people are rightly concerned about. Theres also this really complicated piece of -- of law on who has responsibility. Did they -- did the Supreme Court direct them to bring him back?

Well, that's a different standard than facilitating. And so, not to get into the weeds on this stuff, but if you're getting in the weeds on immigration policy, when you have such a dominant position as President Trump does, you pass this on to somebody. He screwed up. He's going to fix it, and you move on.

WILLIAMS: One more thing. The magic of what Donald Trump did in that statement is, is he talking about immigration policy or is he talking about criminal law? I hear what he said there as talking about people who have committed crimes in the United States, who were grown in the United States, being sent to prison in foreign countries solely to lighten the load.

Now, if he's just talking about immigration, you're absolutely right. It is blurry.

MCHENRY: And what I would say is that debating of semantics, he welcomes every day and he steamrolls all of his opponents because they're getting into semantics.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

MCHENRY: Take the L on this. Go back to the dominant winning position that Kristen just outlined that he has, and go back in your wins.

HUNT: Where are your constituents on this, your -- your prior constituents?

MAX ROSE (D), FORMER NEW YORK CONGRESSMAN: Well, look, it seems that the panel is united in terms of its opposition to Donald Trump's extremist policy right now. I would say that my former constituents are exactly in line with actually principled Democratic messaging right now on this issue, which is that there's a false this is a false choice between justice, safety and fairness. And you see that really with leading candidates are doing right now, take Maura Sullivan, who is set to become the first female marine veteran to be elected to Congress when she wins her campaign in New Hampshire next year.

She was asked about this last weekend and she openly said, look, I want strong borders. I want convicted criminal gang members who are undocumented to be deported. But on the same hand, I believe in our Constitution and due process and that it applies to all Americans.

That's a matter not just of believing in this country, but it's also something that helps put people at ease. And so it's really -- it's unfortunate for this country, but also, you see, as you just said, Donald Trump and the MAGA party are losing this issue, that they were so strong on. ANDERSON: But what I also think, I hope the president keeps in mind is

I think he's very sensitive to his base and the people who elected him, and he doesn't want to back down from a fight where he thinks he's caving and he's failing the people who put him in office.

And I would encourage him to realize that his base is not going to view him as weak I don't think for backing down on this. He has such strong support from his base to do what he wants on this issue and to implement his agenda. I think he absolutely has the power to say, you know what, we're going to fix this. We're going to make this right, because I'm Donald Trump and I fix things.

WILLIAMS: And even more so, the more times he says MS-13 or Tren de Aragua, people think, well, of course nobody wants these folks rampaging the streets of the United States. The problem is that he's losing some of the narrative, because it's not clear that the people who are getting removed from the country actually are members of these gangs.

HUNT: Elliot, can you also -- he says that he's looking at the law on homegrown people, right? Is there a distinction in the eyes of the law, if he starts to try to deport people with U.S. citizens with U.S. citizenship, between someone who's like a dual national versus someone who is a natural born citizen of the United States? Like, is that -- does that distinction exist?

WILLIAMS: And I'll even -- breaks my heart to this. I'll even correct Congressman Rose here. It's not due process. It's not -- you said that due process is extended to American citizens. Due process is extended to anybody who enters the court system in the United States, regardless of their citizenship status.

So, whether someone is a lawful permanent resident unlawfully present in the country or an American citizen, if you enter a courthouse, you're entitled to basic protections of American law that have existed since the country's founding. Full stop.

MCHENRY: But when you have criminal gangs --

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

MCHENRY: -- the person who's putting them behind bars is popular.

WILLIAMS: Yes, I agree.

(CROSSTALK)

MCHENRY: Look, all these U.S. attorneys -- look at all these U.S. attorneys --

WILLIAMS: A hundred percent agree.

MCHENRY: And look at all these attorney generals. Now look at the president sitting next door, sitting right next to the president of El Salvador, who is doing that in El Salvador, is bringing safety to his people. That safety message is a winning message for the president. So, get on with this, fix this problem, move on to the bigger narrative.

WILLIAMS: That's why.

MCHENRY: That's why the first sentence I said was the more times he says the letters and numbers MS-13, he wins, the more time he's talking about these questions. Well, it was facilitate -- not effectuate. Then, it gets more complicated.

HUNT: All right. Well, I guess we're going to -- we're going to find out how far he's going to take this. It seems. New details coming up next in the investigation into an arson attack on the home of Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro.

[16:15:01]

Just awful.

Later, Arizona Democratic Governor Katie Hobbs will be here live in THE ARENA. What she thinks about the president's comments today on immigration and the possibility of deporting U.S. citizens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D), PENNSYLVANIA: This type of violence is not okay. This kind of violence is becoming far too common in our society, and I don't give a damn if it's coming from one particular side or the other, directed at one particular party or another, or one particular person or another.

[16:20:03]

It is not okay, and it has to stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Really strong words there from Governor Josh Shapiro.

We are learning new details this hour about the shocking political attack in Pennsylvania, the home of Governor Josh Shapiro set on fire early Sunday morning while the governor and his family were inside sleeping.

Today, investigators revealing new details about the suspect, including plans that he had if, in fact, he had come into direct contact with Shapiro.

Let's get right to CNN's Danny Freeman. He's live for us in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Danny, these pictures are just so hard to look at. Governor Shapiro, obviously you know, has been someone who is has a very straightforward and pragmatic messaging on many a political topic. And I think you could really hear in, in his voice the conviction that he has around this. What more are we learning about the person who did this, why they did it, and how we ended up here?

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kasie, you could hear the conviction in his voice and also the genuine concern for his family and others who were inside the house when this fire started. Like you noted, we got a lot of new details today about exactly what happened. So, let's start with the suspect here and how police believe he got inside of the residence behind me.

We're talking about 38-year-old Cody Bomber. And police say that on Saturday night, overnight into Sunday morning, they believe that bomber actually jumped this fence right over here. Got access to the governor's residence grounds. And on him, he was carrying a bag with beer bottles filled with gasoline inside of them.

Now, this is all while the governor and his family were sleeping. This man, bomber, according to police, then went over to this building behind me. It's in the southwest corner. Not, thankfully, where the governor and his family were sleeping. He broke a window, threw a makeshift Molotov cocktail into the building, then broke another window with a hammer that he brought with him, climbed into the residence himself, and threw a second incendiary device inside of the building as well.

He then, Kasie, was able to escape by jumping back over the fence. But this is where the story kind of takes a remarkable turn. On Sunday, he actually turned himself in to police. He went to Pennsylvania state police headquarters. It's a massive conflict complex right here in Harrisburg. And he essentially, according to court documents, confessed to the crime and admitted that he was the one who set fire to this particular building.

But this is perhaps the most chilling part about that. When he was speaking to investigators again, according to court documents, police asked him, as you noted, what was your plan if you had encountered Governor Shapiro inside of his residence and he told police he would have, quote, beaten him with his hammer.

But, Kasie, one of the troubling parts also about this case is that when it comes to motive, we still really don't have a ton of information in those court documents, he told investigators that he had a general hatred toward Governor Shapiro. But still, there's no more larger evidence as to what made him come jump over that fence and set fire to the governor's residence, no less on the first night of Passover on Saturday -- Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Danny Freeman, we are just learning in here as well that Cody Balmer the suspect here that you've been reporting on is going to be arraigned at 5:00 p.m. tonight. We're just that just in to CNN here.

Danny Freeman, thank you very much for that.

And we did hear from President Trump briefly on the arson attack when he spoke with reporters in the Oval Office as he sat with the president of El Salvador. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The attacker was not a fan of Trump. I understand just from what I read and from what I've been told. The attacker basically wasn't a fan of anybody. He's probably just a whack job, and certainly, a thing like that cannot be allowed to happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. And joining our panel as well is CNN senior national security analyst Juliette Kayyem.

Juliette, let me start with you just on, you know, obviously were still getting new details in terms of what this man was, was up to. Clearly, he wanted to be known to police because he turned himself in. Clearly, this was a political target.

Again, we don't know what role antisemitism may have played in this. We don't know exactly what role politics may have played in this. Donald Trump seems to be trying to say, well, he didn't do this because he loves me, which, of course, is often how Donald Trump, you know, talks about the world is how it how it impacts or references him or doesn't.

What does it say to you? I mean, this is the latest in a string of violent incidents aimed at politicians. What does that tell you?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It's -- we're -- we're in a stage where there's sort of this normalization of political violence or the threats of violence against political figures. And I want to talk about motive.

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We tend to think -- well, this person is a Democrat and hates Republicans. This person is a Republican and hate Democrats.

What we're seeing now, certainly with the Trump assassination, assassination attempts, is a very mixed, confused motive. People who sometimes are political or not political at all, but who are using -- the target is now a political person. It's not a sports person. It's not an entertainment person. It's not even a family member.

And I think that can be blamed for the heightened threat levels that we see in the political discourse. The -- the threatening of violence as a response to, a political disagreements, even. In fact, I just have to say, like even the Oval Office meeting you all were just talking about, like, there's this tinge of if we don't like you, were going to, like, throw you to El Salvador. Theres a sense of the discourse.

So, I don't know if these motives are as pristine as -- as they used to be. And that is a challenge because then they're harder to stop.

HUNT: Well, one thing I will say, Patrick McHenry, is that and this is part of why, you know, I'm struck by Governor Shapiro, who of course, has been, you know, a rising star in the Democratic Party. He was considered to be the number two on Kamala Harris's ticket.

This is what he said when somebody tried to assassinate Trump, also in Pennsylvania. And it sounds pretty similar to what he said when, you know, something terrible happened to him as well.

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAPIRO: Political disagreements can never, ever be addressed through violence. This is a moment where all leaders have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity. We're all leaders need to take down the temperature and rise above the hateful rhetoric. We continue to wish for a full and speedy recovery and pray for the former president.

(END VIDEO CLIP

HUNT: The right thing to say, then, the right thing to say now.

MCHENRY: Correct.

HUNT: Why is it so hard for some of our leaders to come out and say this? And why also are, you know, I get the sense that some people who hold positions like the position that you previously held, feel like sometimes their constituents are demanding of them things that they previously did not, that the mood in the country is driving this.

MCHENRY: But that's petty and small. And in moments like this, you have to be big. You have to be big. Even if it doesn't feel good, right? You especially have to be big in these moments.

We've seen this with congressional leaders being targeted. Weve seen this with President Trump's assassination attempts. But you see, stars like this rise in moments of severe stress. And I think we saw that today. I think we saw that today that Governor Shapiro has the makings of a national leader.

You see this in Vice President J.D. Vance's response. He was immediately out. He immediately said the right and big thing in condemning this violence and offering prayers for -- for Governor Shapiro and his family. The right thing to do. Absolutely tone pitch perfect for both of these leaders.

But absolutely, we've got to condemn violence. This is -- this is gotten way out of hand, that's for sure.

HUNT: Max Rose, I do want to make sure that we are very careful and clear to say that as of right now, the reporting in CNN does not make a connection between antisemitism and what happened. That said, Governor Shapiro is a very publicly Jewish leader, and in fact, we can put up the before and after of his seder table from, of course, the beginning of Passover. He posted it online.

And you can see you can't quite see the chairs, but that the table, the table ends up completely charred. And you can see those you know, the -- what the remnants. And this just really struck me as very stark, because we do know that antisemitism broadly is rising throughout the country. I mean, how is this being received by people who are Jewish as they look at these images?

ROSE: It's absolutely frightening. And just to put this in context, you know, his family were all asleep at that point. And you could sense it in the tone of his voice. This was deeply personal. This was not just about his own safety, but about the safety of those he loves the most.

And I'm Jewish. Every Jewish person, or at least most, could identify with the fact that we were all with our families over the last few evenings, just as he was.

But I particularly appreciate and respect the fact that he is making this much larger than his own story and his own personal identity, and bringing it back to the fact the importance of unity and respect for all Americans and us moving beyond this moment of political violence that has been particularly heightened over the past few years, particularly since January 6th.

HUNT: Yeah, well, I mean, Kristen Soltis Anderson -- also, yes, his kids, his children were asleep. And just as a parent as well. I mean, I know I would think, oh, my gosh, the thing that I am doing here is what is putting my family in danger.

[16:30:03]

This is the kind of thing, and I think you have had I've spoken to some of your colleagues who have decided they don't want to serve anymore because of some of this, right? It discourages really good people from being in public life, because really good people also want to protect their families, in addition to serving the public.

ANDERSON: One hundred percent. And, you know, it's so often turns out that in the cases like the case of the shooter in Butler, that these motives wind up being. Opaque, that their investigation sometimes doesn't turn up things that are clear. But it is clear that even if there's not direct political rhetoric targeting you, you can still be caught up by somebody who's going through mental challenges.

And I just -- I think there's so much justified criticism of a lot of people who are in public office, but I don't think there's as much thought about what kind of things are you giving up and what kind of potential harm are you putting in your family's way. And it will be a real shame for this country if people continue to opt out of running for public office or being in public office because of things like this.

HUNT: Well, and, Juliette Kayyem, you've obviously studied this kind of, you know, from a big picture and data-based perspective. How often is this just about people who, quite frankly, want to be famous? You know, we saw it when what little we do know about the butler shooter, there seemed to be an element of that there. And in this case, the guy got away. He had gotten away with what he was trying to do, and he shows up and turns himself in? KAYYEM: Yeah. It makes you wonder whether he. He was shocked that he got away. So, we have not talked about the security element of this. This is a state-owned mansion. Most governors have -- have a state- owned mansion.

There has got to be an accounting by the state police as well to not only be able to throw something in, but then get in and get out is just that they did not have the kind of perimeter protection that that they ought to have. And every governor needs to do an assessment. So that's the first thing.

The second is, is, you know, in this -- in this world of what I call sort of performative violence, it's not just the violence. It's -- I have to be seen. We have to be careful that it's because the target is -- is a big deal, the politician, rather than a particular motive that is going to make more politicians vulnerable.

HUNT: All right. Juliette Kayyem, thank you very much, as always, for your analysis and expertise.

Coming up next, there is new reaction from Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer today about this photograph. What she is saying about her now infamous visit to the Oval Office last week.

We'll get into that and more with one of her fellow governors. Arizona's Katie Hobbs will be here live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:37:10]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MODERATOR: You've been in the news a lot lately. You've been busy. Yeah.

How was -- how was Washington? Did you --

(LAUGHTER)

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D), MICHIGAN: You asked me -- what was going through your mind at that moment, and it was -- I don't want my picture taken. That's all it was. I kind of wish I hadn't put my folder up in front of my face, but whatever.

You know, I was there. I mean, I just wrote a book about learning to laugh at yourself, so I'm -- I'm pretty good at it. And we all make, you know, we all have our moments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: We all have our moments, she says.

Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer speaking out today about her controversial meeting with Trump last week and that now infamous photo that captured the entire situation around her Oval Office visit, showing Whitmer shielding herself from the cameras with her shoulders.

Joining us now to discuss Democratic Governor of Arizona Katie Hobbs is here with us.

Governor, I'm so grateful to have you on the show. My question to you is whether you would have done what Governor Whitmer did. Would you have gone in to the Oval Office under those circumstances? And how do you think she handled it?

GOV. KATIE HOBBS (D), ARIZONA: Governor should be doing what's best for their states. I know as governor of Arizona, that's what I'm focused on. And if I had the opportunity to meet with the president, I would go there and advocate for what Arizona needs. I don't want to speak for -- for Governor Whitmer. I wasn't in the situation, but I'm sure that's what she was doing.

HUNT: If an invitation was extended to you to meet with Trump in the Oval Office, would you take it?

HOBBS: Absolutely. I have been focused from day one of my time as governor on doing what's right for Arizona, and I will work with anyone to do that. In a state like Arizona, I've been able to deliver a lot of bipartisan wins. And those wouldn't have been possible if I wasn't willing to work with anyone because were, you know, have a Republican majority in the legislature.

I worked with the Biden administration, and I stood up to them when they were doing things that weren't right for Arizona. And the same is true now with the Trump administration.

HUNT: Speaking of working with the Trump administration, you have been willing to work with them in some areas of immigration enforcement, including around fighting crimes like human trafficking. We heard him in the Oval Office today float the possibility of deporting people who are citizens of the United States. He called them homegrown.

Would you be interested in partnering with President Trump on that or not?

HOBBS: What I'm focused on is real border security. And so, obviously, if someone commits a crime, they should pay the consequences of that crime. But in America, we have a process that includes due process.

[16:40:05]

And, that is what is missing in this equation. And so, deporting someone who is here legally, who hasn't committed a crime or we don't have evidence of that, that's what due process helps to figure out. That is an attack on our Constitution. It's an attack on our freedoms. And, no, that's not something I'm willing to partner on.

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, just -- just to be very clear, is it ever acceptable to deport a U.S. citizen, in your view?

HOBBS: Oh, absolutely not. HUNT: All right, fair enough. Let's also talk for a moment about

Governor Shapiro. We were just having a conversation about what had happened at the Pennsylvania governor's mansion when a man set fire to it. He actually got away, but then he went and himself in and said, this is what I did.

You, of course, also a public servant, a fellow Democratic governor. What went through your mind when you learned that someone had done this?

HOBBS: Yeah. I mean, it is obviously a horrifying thing to have happened and to think about someone, a colleague experiencing, I'm extremely grateful that he and his family are safe and that law enforcement were able to identify and apprehend the suspect as quickly as they did.

I'm someone who has experienced death threats. I've had a mob of armed protesters outside of my house. But we cannot respond to political disagreements in this fashion with violence.

We live in a democratic system where we settle these kind of differences with free and fair elections. We certainly shouldn't normalize this kind of political violence. And -- and it is horrifying. I'm very glad that Governor Shapiro and his family are safe.

HUNT: Has --will this incident cause you to reevaluate or evaluate the security apparatus that does protect you? Because clearly, there was a dramatic failure here.

HOBBS: Yeah, and I don't want to comment. I'm sure they're looking into what could have been done differently. I'm sure my security team is doing the same thing right now. With my security.

But, you know, I mentioned the death threats, the armed protesters, those happened when I was secretary of state, and I stepped up and I ran for governor. And we need leaders who are going to stand up to this kind of violence and work to bring us back to normal political discourse, where we focus on solving our -- our disagreements with the election process.

HUNT: Yeah. And it's a -- it's a good reminder for our viewers that you served in that role at a particularly heightened time. I mean, to that point, are you satisfied with how President Trump has responded to this?

HOBBS: To be honest, I haven't seen the presidents response.

HUNT: He was asked about it in a brief gaggle, and he said that he doesn't think that the person involved was someone who was focused on Donald Trump, but he hasn't said much beyond that.

J.D. Vance, his vice president, did condemn the violence.

HOBBS: Look, until we have a full investigation, we know what this was about. We shouldn't be questioning people's motives. We should just focus on the fact that the systems who are -- that are

designed to go after suspects worked in this situation. We need to focus on how we make sure something like this doesn't happen again or in other states, for sure. And, you know, look at the reason it happened when we have more information, facts.

HUNT: All right. Arizona Governor Katie Hobbs, thanks so much for spending some time with us today. I really appreciate it.

HOBBS: Thank you.

HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, the newest turn in the modern day space race between two billionaires.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Liftoff. New Shepard has cleared the tower.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oprah watching her best friend go to space.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a very soft, soft landing, despite the sporty perception.

There it is.

(CHEERING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Katy --

GAYLE KING, JOURNALIST: I just have to have a moment with the ground. Let me just -- let me just appreciate the ground for just a second. Thank you. Jesus. Oh my god.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Happy to be home. Journalist Gayle King and pop star Katy Perry both kissing the ground after they launched more than 340,000ft off the ground. They were among the six women who traveled on board Blue Origin's all female suborbital space mission.

For all the headlines surrounding those six women, today's flight, lets be real the latest public face off between these two men, Jeff Bezos, the Amazon co-founder, is locked in a pretty competitive modern day space race with the world's richest man, the Trump confidant and SpaceX founder Elon Musk.

[16:50:05]

Blue Origin has launched less than a fourth of the amount of rockets that SpaceX has over the past few years.

My panel is here to talk more about this, and we're also joined by CNN aviation analyst Miles O'Brien.

Miles, it's wonderful to see you.

This is the sort of thing that I know --

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Thank you.

HUNT: -- you know, at one point you had had been on tap to do. It is clearly a remarkable moment. But at the same time, it's -- it represents a lot more than just what we're seeing, especially when, you know, Elon Musk is often at political rallies wearing an Occupy Mars shirt. And these millions and billions, really, of dollars in government contracts are also at stake here.

O'BRIEN: Yes. It's quite an interesting competition to watch. Clearly, Elon Musk has the inside track. He's got, soon to be sworn in NASA administrator Jared Isaacman, who's a three-time customer of his and has flown a couple of times on his spacecraft.

Jeff Bezos, on the other hand, has moved in a more deliberative fashion, hasn't had quite the level of NASA support that SpaceX has all throughout these years. SpaceX would not exist without a lot of NASA funding.

And Bezos has moved more slowly, but now is getting into the orbital world and may actually provide reasonable competition to SpaceX eventually. Right now, though, it's not much of a contest.

HUNT: Yeah, for -- for sure.

And, Kristen Soltis Anderson, one of the things you're hearing at two, Olivia Munn this morning was on she -- she called it gluttonous. She said people can't afford eggs. This has actually been a long running criticism of some of the funding for -- for space programs. I am admittedly, like, really wished I could have, like, been good enough at math to be an astronaut instead of sitting. I'm happy to be here, don't get me wrong. But you know, I love seeing -- seeing this kind of -- kind of thing.

But, you know, Gayle King actually was forced to address it. She said that, you know, they've had some cranky Yankees and -- Yankees and haters about this.

ANDERSON: Yeah. Look, if you want to tag me as anybody in that scenario, it's Oprah with her hands over her face, like terrified as her friend goes up into space. Thats who I identify with the most in this situation.

When I think of astronaut, I think more of, say, the woman who was stuck on the International Space Station for an extended period of time because she was unable to come home. I mean, I don't necessarily think of this as that, but I don't have the guts to do it, so kudos to them.

And you know what? Look, there's never going to be a time where we say, you know, the economy is great enough. Let's do these sorts of things. So I don't have that criticism necessarily. MCHENRY: We've had more than three times the launch of any other

country on the planet. This is driven by the private sector. We have billionaires competing to go to space. How cool is that? Right? This is great competition of a capitalist economy, trying to launch stuff into space, whether its celebrities or like stuff that we actually use, which is mainly what SpaceX is doing. Either way, it's super cool.

HUNT: Would you do it?

MCHENRY: Yeah, but I'm not invited. I don't think I rate as like one of those celebrities. Which one of these is not like the other? Like Max and I on that -- on that.

HUNT: Would you go? I mean, if I didn't have two little kids, I'd be like the first one in line.

ROSE: I'd go in a second. But let's just be clear here. That was a PR stunt. They didn't go to space. They just went to, like, the tippy top of, you know, whatever you call it. And they had no training.

So, what you actually see here is this was an act of desperation because Bezos is so nervous that at this point, NASA is a fully owned subsidiary of Elon Musk. And that that -- that's a shame.

HUNT: Very, very briefly, Miles O'Brien, are we going to make it to Mars?

O'BRIEN: Wow. Good question.

I think, you know, Elon Musk seems quite determined and he seems to have an awful lot of say so in this current administration. But there's an awful lot of technological challenges to solve, including just simply the exposure to radiation that the human body can take over the course of a long journey like that.

Space is hard on people, you know? Ask Suni Williams, ask Butch Wilmore after their long stint. It takes a long time to come back. There are astronauts walking around with permanent eye loss because of being on the space station. We don't know if that would continue out to blindness on the way to Mars.

HUNT: Oh my gosh. Okay, that's a conversation for another day.

Miles O'Brien, I do hope you'll come back and continue to be our guest. Our guest. I really appreciate it.

O'BRIEN: Anytime.

HUNT: Coming up next here, something totally different, a reunion, 40 years in the making.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:59:30]

HUNT: All right. It's been exactly 40 years since that fateful Saturday morning detention. I'm sorry. What?

Yes. For the first time since the 1985 premiere of "The Breakfast Club", all five members of the cast reunited in person. This is for all you Gen Xers out there.

That includes a brain, an athlete, a basket case, a princess, and a criminal all getting together to celebrate the films milestone over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOLLY RINGWALD, ACTRESS: I feel really, very emotional, and moved to have us all together. This is the first time that Emilio has joined us. We -- we don't have to use the cardboard cutout anymore. So, because he's here.

EMILIO ESTEVEZ, ACTOR: I skipped all of my high school reunions. So, so -- this just was something that, finally, I felt I needed to do for my -- just for myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: You love to see it.

Jake Tapper, Molly Ringwald does not support remaking it. Over to you for "THE LEAD".