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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Sen. Van Hollen Speaks About Abrego Garcia Visit In El Salvador. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired April 18, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Making his way down to Florida parkway.
[16:00:04]
Why? Well, perhaps see the bride in the passenger seat there. He had to get her to her big day last week. Police in Port Saint Lucie, Florida, sharing this video of the traffic stop. And frankly, not one they likely encounter every day.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE: Whose wedding is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's mine.
POLICE: What time is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's 2:30.
POLICE: Where at?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The courthouse.
POLICE: You're already late.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Whoops. Already late.
The good news is, you can see here the bride did ultimately make it to the altar to tie the knot. Her friend, though, ended up with a court date.
Thanks so much for joining me. I'm Erica Hill.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's the sit-down versus the spin.
Let's head into THE ARENA. Senator Chris Van Hollen about to share new details about his meeting
in El Salvador with Kilmar Abrego Garcia as President Trump uses the case of the wrongly deported Maryland man to hammer Democrats.
Plus, team Trump now threatening to abandon their efforts to end Russia's war in Ukraine, with the administration so far unable to make good on the president's promise to quickly broker peace.
And new reporting on why Trump's acting IRS director is out only days after he was appointed. What, if anything, does Elon Musk have to do with it?
(MUSIC)
HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Friday. We did make it to Friday, I think. Still some to go.
Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland just landed here in the Washington, D.C., area, and we expect him to speak at any moment about his visit to El Salvador last night with his wrongly deported constituent, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, amid questions about whether his trip and Democrats' defense of Abrego Garcia is playing into Republican hands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, he's a fake. I know him, I know him all. They're all fake and they have no interest in that prisoner. That prisoners record is unbelievably bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Let's take a closer look at the pictures from the visit between Senator Van Hollen and Abrego Garcia. As you can see, he's conspicuously dressed in street clothes. The photos seem to have been taken at a hotel. It is quite a contrast with the grim scenes that we have seen from inside El Salvador supermax prison, where Abrego Garcia is incarcerated.
El Salvador strongman President Nayib Bukele posted this, quote: Kilmar Abrego Garcia miraculously risen from the death camps and torture, now sipping margaritas with Senator Van Hollen in the tropical paradise of El Salvador. He added that now that Abrego Garcia has been confirmed healthy, he gets the, quote, honor of staying in El Salvador's custody.
So, as we wait to hear from the senator, the bottom line remains this: Abrego Garcia was denied due process. He was denied the right to argue in court about his own fate, raising the question of who else might get the quote/unquote, honor of being removed from this country to an El Salvador prison without a day in court.
Our panel is here, but let's first start with CNN's Lauren Fox. She's at Dulles International Airport, where, as we understand, Senator Van Hollen has just landed. Lauren, we expect the question the senator to take questions. And I
obviously understand you may have to jump here because we may see him soon.
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's exactly right. We are waiting for the senator to arrive any minute at this press conference. And this is going to be the first opportunity that we have to press him back here in the United States about what exactly transpired over the course of his trip in El Salvador, and specifically what transpired in that meeting with Abrego Garcia, how it came together after he was denied a visit to CECOT earlier in the day, that maximum security facility where we thought that Abrego Garcia was being held.
Now, obviously, there's still a lot of questions about what exactly transpired so that he could meet with him, what he thought of the circumstances surrounding that meeting, whether or not he has any hope that things are going to change, to bring Abrego Garcia home, given the fact that the White House has repeatedly made clear that he is not going to be returned to the United States. So there's still a huge amount of questions out there, and we are waiting to see what exactly Van Hollen says when he arrives at this press conference. And we expect that in mere moments -- Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Lauren Fox, I know you'll be staying close. We're going to come back to you as soon as the senator appears there before our cameras.
But our panel is here. CNN contributor, host of the podcasts "One" and "Pivot", Kara Swisher, the host of "The Chuck Toddcast," Chuck Todd, former communications director for the DNC, Mo Elleithee, and Republican strategist Erin Maguire.
Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here.
Chuck, let me start with you on what we've seen transpire here. What we're going to hear from Van Hollen. It strikes me that the optics of this were controlled by the president of El Salvador and potentially President Trump, and not by Senator Van Hollen, because it certainly doesn't send, you know, the message that we've all been hearing of someone who has been incarcerated in an absolute hellhole.
[16:05:12]
What are -- how do you view this, this story in a big picture way?
CHUCK TODD, HOST, THE CHUCK TODDCAST: Well, it certainly, you can see what that there seems to be a lot of politics being played here, particularly I think, from the White House's point of view in that I don't understand, for instance, why if they believe -- if they believe they have the law on their side, that they could deport him somewhere else, that they've mistakenly done this, why they're so afraid of bringing him back, going into court and making their case, and the fact that they not it feels as if this seems to be. It's almost like they're relishing the opportunity to have this showdown. And this has been, frankly, I think, a pattern in this administration
where instead of doing something that you could do it under the umbrella of constitutional, whether we're talking about doge or something like this, it's almost like they're intentionally saying, no, let's have the showdown, because the fight is good politics for the base. And it feels as if that's what all this is about, that if they have the optics right for the base, they don't care about the substance because they think swing voters in the middle, it's like they're almost it feels that cynical.
And again, I go back, its like I do think this is overtime going to give them more problems, not less. But this feels like a White House that's constantly thinking about how do we win the day, how do we win the moment and own the libs or whatever you want to talk about it? Because every other angle to this doesn't make any sense to me. Unless that's your motivation.
HUNT: Kara, do you see it that way?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah. It's showdown emphasis on show, right? Because it's playing for social media. It's playing for very quick snackable bits. You can see how they're doing it. They want those pictures to come through.
Look, he's having -- and then he they coordinate with the president of El Salvador, who himself is a showboat, essentially by saying, oh, they're having margaritas at this hotel, when in fact, Kristi Noem has given us a lot of pictures of what that place looks like in her poses in front of those -- those prisoners.
And so show is what's -- it's about the momentary thing and winning the day versus the truth really.
HUNT: Mo Elleithee, how do you see this here? Because obviously the White House is also -- like they're trying to make it about this man, his character, right? His -- whatever ties to miss 13th may exist. We saw -- we've seen a little bit of evidence around that.
But obviously it's confusing because of the way the court records are and the fact that that wasn't actually an issue in some of these court hearings. Whereas of course, the big picture issue here is due process and the lack thereof.
MO ELLEITHEE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, GEORGETOWN INSTITUTE OF POLITICS & PUBLIC SERVICE: Yeah. Look, I think there are two issues, one, and piggybacking on what Chuck and Kara were just saying, I'm old enough to remember when the Republican Party was the party for limited government, and now it seems to be the party for --
HUNT: That era remembers --
ERIN MAGUIRE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: That era as well.
ELLEITHEE: The party for consolidated government. Everything under the White House roof, no real separation of powers. The legislative branch has completely abdicated its responsibility, and they are now trying to systematically neuter the judicial branch. And so, it's -- it's a very, very different day. It is sort of a strongman approach.
In this particular case or on this particular issue, it is completely about due process. And Democrats actually have an opportunity here that I'm not sure they've completely nailed. I think its great that Chris Van Hollen went down there, but I think pointing out the fact more forcefully, look, this guy could be a bad dude. We don't know. They haven't shown to us that he's a bad dude yet, but he may be. So, let's put him in front of a judge and let the judge tell us if he's a bad dude or not.
Chris Van Hollen could say, I will escort him back to the United States in handcuffs and leg irons until he has that day of court. Judge says he's good. I'm going to take him back home to his family. If the judge says he's bad, I'm going to put him on the next plane to anywhere but El Salvador. And that's the way I think Democrats can point out that this is about the lack of due process. And the president, who is trying to do everything under the auspices of the White House.
HUNT: Erin, you know, I understand where the polling is on immigration, that the president's approval ratings are very high on immigration. And, you know, when this is cast as an immigration issue, which is, of course, what the White House is trying to do, the base, to Chuck's point, is really with him all the way.
I do struggle to understand how Republicans get on board with something where there's clearly a violation of due process. I mean, considering I've covered the Republican Party for a long time, this is like, you know, a core part of it, or at least it used to be. The Republican Party has changed under Donald Trump. I think that that is the easiest statement to make in the country. And I don't think that that shocks anybody at this table, no.
MAGUIRE: However, in this case, Democrats are just giving Donald Trump everything he wants every single day.
[16:10:03]
And most of the media is as well.
Right now, they are either chasing Elon Musk from agency to agency to try and say, federal bureaucrat jobs, or they're arguing due process about someone who is illegally in the United States.
Donald Trump was very clear throughout his time in public office that illegal immigration is something he wants to tamp down, and he wants to provide sovereignty to the United States borders in that he is pursuing that in this way. And what are Democrats arguing, instead of arguing something that feels more real to people like the Maryland man, they're arguing due process, and Donald Trump remains on his consistent message that he is always had, which is this is a bad guy. We don't want illegal immigrants in our country, and we have to get them out.
Democrats have yet to be able to get past that. Donald Trump mirror blur that they have been obsessed with for almost ten years to be able to more effectively argue that, right? Maybe he is a good guy. Maybe he's not a good guy, but the adjudication for him, they're arguing adjudication in the court process here, and Donald Trump saying that guy is not supposed to be here.
They're making it too complicated. And let me tell you, that's not what the American people are tuning into.
TODD: I totally get it. But if we can't sit here and say we ought to follow the law, like that, that's -- he's not following the law.
MAGUIRE: But that's not what Democrats are saying either.
TODD: Look, I'm with you. Look, the Democrats don't know what they're doing on immigration, and they haven't. Okay. That's -- it is a complete and utter, a complete and utter failure. The -- you know, there's no doubt.
Look, I was a part of that debate when the when they all raised their hands about open borders, except with decriminalizing crossing the border, except Joe Biden, which is arguably why he probably survived that debate process.
So, look, this is not about the Democrats, but it's like -- you've I sort of struggle if the media doesn't point out that they're not following the law, then what's the point of having a meeting?
MAGUIRE: But there's a difference between pointing it out and endless exacerbation about it.
TODD: Well, that's every story. Well, that's every story.
But that's what Donald Trump is doing. And people keep like, I feel like everybody. We've tried to starve Donald of attention. That didn't work.
ELLEITHEE: But look the president you say Democrats keep giving Donald Trump what he wants. The president doesn't make it easy on himself when the next day he comes out and says, maybe we ought to do this with American citizens, too.
MAGUIRE: Oh, he does not make it easier for himself at any turn, ever.
ELLEITHEE: And people say, oh, there's no way he's going to do that. And then they do.
HUNT: Well, and so speaking of -- of that question, because, you know, I think that, you know, certainly for me, this is why a huge part of why this story has resonated with so many people and has generated fear is that with Donald Trump, he often does float these ideas. Right. And you think, oh, that's very outside the realm of possibility. That is not a normal thing.
And then we watch it, like happen right before our eyes. So, there was a man. And I'll just read from our CNN story about this. Juan Carlos Lopez-Gomez, 20 years old, was arrested on Wednesday by Florida highway patrol when the car he was riding and was pulled over for speeding, according to an arrest affidavit. And his attorney, the American citizen born in Grady County, Georgia, where he lives in the city of Cairo, was crossing into Florida for his work in construction in Tallahassee about 45 minutes from his home and uncertainty stemming from a language barrier filled out or customs paperwork filled out as a teen, maybe factors in his Florida detention.
This man was detained as an American citizen for two days in Florida. A judge basically threw up her hands and said, I can't. Theres nothing I can do to get him out.
Kara, this -- this is -- and then he's, you know, raising in the Oval Office this idea of like, well, homegrown criminals. We're just going to send them to prison.
And I think I'm going to have to hear -- this is -- this is Chris Van Hollen. He's embracing Kilmar Abrego Garcia's wife who is there. Jennifer Vasquez is her name. And, of course, we heard her speaking outside of the courthouse at a hearing about this earlier in the week.
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): It's good to be home. Now, we need to end the illegal abduction of Kilmar Abrego Garcia and bring him home, too.
We're joined by his wife, Jennifer, by his mother, Cecilia, by his brother Cesar, and thank all of the rest of you who are joining us in solidarity with the Constitution and Bill Maher.
Look, I'm a little sleep deprived and I want to be as clear as possible about what this is about and what it's not about. So, I'm going to read the remarks that I wrote on the plane ride home. As the federal courts have said, we need to bring Mr. Abrego Garcia home to protect his constitutional rights to due process.
And it's also important that people understand this case is not just about one man.
[16:15:05]
It's about protecting the constitutional rights of everybody who resides in the United States of America.
(APPLAUSE)
VAN HOLLEN: If you deny the constitutional rights of one man, you threaten the constitutional rights and due process for everyone else in America.
CROWD: Yes.
VAN HOLLEN: The Fourth Circuit put it very clearly in its strong opinion yesterday, and I quote, it is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter. But in this case, it is not hard at all. The government in this case, the Trump administration, is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process. That is the foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims, in essence, that because it has rid itself of
custody, that there is nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from the courthouses still hold dear. They summed up the issue at stake perfectly.
And that's why the Supreme Court, in a nine to nothing decision, ordered the Trump administration to facilitate the return of Mr. Abrego Garcia.
Now, the Trump administration wants to flat out lie about what this case is about. They want to change the subject. They want to make it about something else, and they are flouting the orders from the federal district court, the Fourth Circuit Court and the Supreme Court to facilitate his return. Thats why I traveled to El Salvador, leaving here on Wednesday. And I want to express my gratitude to members of my family and members of my staff who agree that we all must be prepared to take risks because of the current risk to our constitution itself.
In addition to doing a variety -- having a variety of discussions on bilateral issues between the United States and El Salvador, I had two main goals. One was to urge the government of El Salvador not to be complicit in the illegal abduction and detention of Mr. Abrego Garcia, and to release him.
I made that request directly to the vice president of El Salvador. The president was out of country at the time and I previously reported on that conversation. My principal mission was to meet with Kilmar Abrego Garcia. I told his wife, Jennifer, and his family that I would do everything in my power to make that happen.
And last night, at about 6:40 p.m., El Salvador Time, 8:45 p.m. here on the East Coast, I called Jennifer to tell her that I had met with Kilmar, and I told her what he said to me, which was first and foremost, that he missed her and his family. And as he said that you could see it here.
Now getting a meeting with Kilmar was not easy. On Wednesday, I met with the vice president of El Salvador and asked if I could meet with him. The answer was no.
I asked if I returned the following week whether I could meet with him. The answer was no.
I asked if I could call him on the phone. The answer was no.
I asked if his wife, Jennifer, could call him on the phone. The answer was no. No to his wife. No -- no to his mother. No to his lawyers.
So, the following day, which was yesterday, I decided to give it another try by driving to CECOT. CECOT is the notorious prison where Kilmar was taken when he was abducted.
I was accompanied by a lawyer for Kilmar's wife, Jennifer, and mother, Cecilia, Chris Newsom (ph). About three kilometers outside of CECOT, we were pulled over by soldiers. [16:20:04]
You could see the rest of the traffic was allowed to go by. We were pulled over by soldiers and told that we were not allowed to proceed any further. When I asked why, I was told that they had orders not to allow us to go any further. When I asked them if they knew anything about the condition of Mr. Abrego Garcia, they said no.
And so much later in the afternoon, I was actually getting ready to catch a plane out of San Salvador back here later yesterday evening, and all of a sudden, I got word that I would be allowed to meet with Kilmar Abrego Garcia, and they brought him to the hotel where I was staying.
And after that meeting, as I said, I called his wife, Jennifer, to report on some of the news of that meeting. And now I'm going to report to all of you about our discussion.
When I told him that his wife and family sent their love and were fighting for Kilmar, return home every day, he said that he was worried about all of you. That was his response. How are you dealing with this horrible ordeal and nightmare for the family?
He said that thinking of you members of his family is what gave him the strength to persevere, to keep going day to day, even under these awful circumstances. He spoke several times about your five-year-old son who has autism. Five-year-old son who was in the car in Maryland when Kilmar was pulled over by U.S. government agents and handcuffed his five-year-old son, was in the car at that time.
He told me that he was taken to Baltimore first. I assume that was the Baltimore detention center. He asked to make a phone call from there to let people know what had happened to him. But he was denied that opportunity.
He said he was later taken with some others from Baltimore to a detention center in Texas, and at some point thereafter, I don't know whether it was a period of hours or days. He was handcuffed, shackled and put on a plane along with some others where they couldn't see out of the windows. There was no way to see where they were going in the plane. They didn't know for sure where they were going.
They landed in El Salvador, and he was taken to CECOT prison. He was placed in a cell with, if I recall correctly, and don't hold me to it, of about 25 other prisoners at CECOT. He said he was not afraid of the other prisoners in his immediate cell, but that he was traumatized by being at CECOT and fearful of many of the prisoners in other cell blocks who called out to him and taunted him in various ways.
He told me, and this was yesterday, that eight days ago, So I guess nine days ago from today, he was moved to another detention center in Santa Ana, where the conditions are better. But he said despite the better conditions, he still has no access to any news from the outside world and no ability to communicate with anybody in the outside world. His conversation with me was the first communication he'd had with anybody outside of prison since he was abducted. He said he felt very sad about being in a prison because he had not
committed any crimes. When I asked him what was the one thing he would ask for in addition to his freedom, he said he wanted to talk to his wife, Jennifer. I told him I would work very hard to make that happen.
[16:25:04]
I told him that in addition to his family, that all of you who were here today were fighting to bring him home. I told him that his brothers and sisters in his union, the sheet metal workers union, were fighting to bring him home. That brought a smile to his face.
I told him that millions of Americans understand that what is happening to him is a threat to their own constitutional rights. I told him about the decisions of the federal courts, the district court, the Fourth Circuit Court, the Supreme Court. And I think that in addition to knowing that his family was fighting for him, all of that gave him strength. The fact that all of you here were fighting for him.
I want to say something about the Trump administration's efforts to change the conversation about what this case is about. This case is about upholding constitutional rights for Abrego Garcia and for every American. The president, President Trump, and the Trump administration wants to say that those who are fighting to stand up for our constitution don't want to fight gang violence.
That is an outright lie. That is a big, big lie. I, for one, have been fighting against transnational gang violence, especially MS-13, for over 20 years, probably for longer than Donald Trump ever uttered those words, MS-13. Over 20 years ago, I worked to establish a anti- gang task force, a regional anti-gang task force in the Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Virginia area.
I did it in a bipartisan way with then-Congressman Frank Wolf and Tom Davis, and we have made substantial progress in this region. We have a long way still to go, but those efforts have resulted in progress.
So, I say to the president and the Trump administration, if you want to make claims about Mr. Abrego Garcia and MS-13, you should present them in the court, not over social media.
CROWD: That's right.
VAN HOLLEN: Not at press conferences where you just rattle stuff off. Because here is what the federal district court judge said about exactly this issue. This is Judge Xinis. So, she is the federal district court judge in the district of Maryland, where the case first appeared. This is a quote from her opinion.
Defendants, and in this case, this is the Trump administration, she's referring to, have offered no evidence, have offered no evidence linking Abrego Garcia to MS-13 or any terrorist activity. And vague allegations of gang association alone do not supersede the express protections offered under the INA, unquote. She emphasized this point, and I'm quoting, no evidence before the
court connects Abrego Garcia to MS-13 or any other criminal organization, unquote. In other words, put up in court or shut up.
(APPLAUSE)
VAN HOLLEN: What the Trump administration did admit in court was that Kilmar Abrego Garcia has been mistakenly detained. They called it a, quote, administrative error, unquote. An administrative error that has resulted in him being abducted off the streets of Maryland and put into prison in El Salvador, that has deprived him of his personal freedom and liberty.
But rather than fix this grievous error that they agreed had been made in court, what did the Trump administration do? They -- they upbraided and fired -- fired the lawyer who told the truth to the court. Thats what they did. They didn't fix the error. They fired the lawyer who told the truth about this awful egregious mistake.
And now, despite the fact that the Supreme Court has ordered the Trump administration to fix that error, they and that has deprived Mr. Abrego Garcia of his liberty.
[16:30:06]
They are flaunting. They -- the administration -- Trump are flaunting the court order to facilitate its return. And the government of El Salvador is complicit in that illegal scheme. So, we need to hold both of them accountable, and we can talk more about how to do that.
But as I said at the beginning, this case is not only about one man as important as that is. It is about protecting fundamental freedoms and the fundamental principle in the Constitution for due process that protects everybody who resides in America. This should not be an issue for Republicans or Democrats.
This is an issue for every American who cares about our Constitution. Who cares about personal liberty. Who cares about due process, and who cares about what makes America so different, which is adherence to all of those things. This is an American issue.
Now, I just want to take a moment. I hadn't planned to do this, but as I was landing on the airplane, I got a transcript of some questions President Trump was asked at the White House today about what I would call Margarita-gate. I don't know if you guys have been following this, but President Bukele, you know, after I met with Kilmar, did this tweet showing us at a table with these two glasses.
So, here's what happened. When I first sat down with Kilmar, we just had glasses of water on the table. I think maybe some coffee.
And as we were talking, one of the government people came over and deposited two other glasses on the table with ice. And I don't know if it was salt or sugar around the top, but they looked like margaritas. And if you look at the one they put in front of Kilmar, it actually had a little less liquid than the one in me in front of me to try to make it look -- I assume like he drank out of it.
Let me just be very clear. Neither of us touched the drinks that were in front of us. And if you want to play a little Sherlock Holmes, I'll tell you how you can know that. So, if you look at the video or the picture I sent out from the beginning of our meeting, you'll see there are no glasses on the table. So, you'll see in later videos they are on the table, but they made a little mistake, for some people are very careful. Right?
If you sip out of one of those glasses, some of whatever it was, salt or sugar would disappear. You would see a gap. There's no gap. Nobody drank any margaritas or sugar water or whatever it is.
But this is a lesson into the lengths that President Bukele will do to deceive people about what's going on. And it also shows the lengths that the Trump administration and the president will go to, because when he was asked about a reporter about this, he just went along for the ride.
So, the White House and the president have been lying about this case from the beginning. They've been trying to change the subject from the beginning. As I said, and the courts have said from the Supreme Court to the fourth circuit to the district court, what this is about is adhering to the Constitution, to the right of due process. And that's why we say bring Kilmar home so he can be afforded his rights under the Constitution. That's what this is about.
(APPLAUSE)
REPORTER: Does Kilmar have any idea the firestorm his deportation has caused here in America?
VAN HOLLEN: So, I told him this was the first he'd heard.
REPORTER: You can address the camera.
VAN HOLLEN: Sure. The first he heard is that after I told him that his family was fighting for him, I told him everybody else that was fighting for him, including his union members, but also people from across Maryland. In fact, across the country, who recognize that depriving Kilmar of his constitutional rights is a threat to everybody who resides in America. He had not heard that. I believe that gave him additional strength.
REPORTER: Senator, what is the -- what did Abrego Garcia say that the officials in El Salvador told him about why he was sent to that prison and how long he would be there?
VAN HOLLEN: They haven't told him anything about why he was sent.
REPORTRER: Or how long he would be there.
VAN HOLLEN: They didn't tell him anything about that.
REPORTER: Have you been -- VAN HOLLEN: In fact, I asked the vice president exactly that question.
You know, why is he here? Is he violating any laws in El Salvador? Does he -- do you have any proof that he's committed a crime?
[16:35:02]
No.
Why? Why are you. Why is he here? Because the Trump administration is paying us to keep him here.
REPORTER: Did he learn from other migrants that were also there that were also deported to that prison?
VAN HOLLEN: Did what?
REPORTER: Did he say what he had heard from others who were also deported to that prison?
VAN HOLLEN: He only -- he did not know about what was happening in the outside world.
(CROSSTALK)
VAN HOLLEN: Let me just say -- at CECOT, I want to be really clear, at CECOT. They don't' let any of the prisoners have access to the outside world. That's one of the conditions. One of the notorious parts of that prison, which, by the way, is a blatant violation of international law, as I said, when I was --
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: The first person that can see a person that was in CECOT and that left CECOT even for a few minutes, what did he say about how it is being there? Because he's the first prisoner from CECOT that was outside ever.
VAN HOLLEN: Oh, I -- as I think I said, I mean, he said the -- what he said was that he -- it was his best guess that most of the cells were packed with about 100 people. I asked him why. He said when they take roll call, in during the day, people have to call out their names from different cells.
As I said in his cell, I believe there were about 25 people until he was -- he was moved. But as I said, while he wasn't fearful of the other prisoners in his own cell, he was fearful about the taunts that he received from other prisoners in CECOT.
REPORTER: Senator, can you walk us through?
VAN HOLLEN: Go here and then here. Sorry.
REPORTER: Okay. What do you think you've achieved with this trip and what's next in terms of getting him actually released and sent back to the United States? VAN HOLLEN: Well, the first thing was to accomplish what his mother
and family were really desperate to learn, which is that he's alive and heard a thing about him. That for someone who's, you know, he's obviously in a terrible situation. As I said, he's experienced trauma. He said he's sad every day.
But I think this persistence resulted in having this chance to meet with them, to begin to get a little bit of his story. And I think it is the first step to ultimately bringing him home, as the Constitution requires.
REPORTER: Senator --
VAN HOLLEN: Go here --
REPORTER: Did you have a sense of his -- of his health, his well- being? Did you sense did you get any indication that he'd been abused at CECOT?
VAN HOLLEN: I did not get that, that sense. Look, you never know, but I asked him if he was okay. He said yes. He said he has a blood pressure condition. He has seen a doctor.
So, you know, on a cursory, cursory examination, he appeared okay. Now, I will say, just to be clear, there was some negotiation about the terms of this meeting, and he was -- we were kind of surrounded by video cameras. So, I do want to -- I do want to say that that was the setting he was in.
I should also just say, you know, I mentioned the fake margarita scandal. They actually wanted to have the meeting by the side of the pool, right in the hotel. Just right. I mean, this is a guy who's been in CECOT. This is a guy who's been detained.
They want to create this appearance that life was just lovely for Kilmar, which, of course, is a big fat lie.
REPORTER: Senator, can I ask you, have you been having any conversations over the course of the last 48 hours -- I know you've been busy in El Salvador -- with Trump administration officials? Was there any indication, maybe with the administration, that they were more flexible than what they were saying publicly?
VAN HOLLEN: I have not. I did have a meeting with folks at the American embassy there, and I really want to applaud them. And every member of the foreign service and State Department in El Salvador and everywhere around the world. I co-chair the foreign service caucus. And I have a deep appreciation for what they do.
I asked them if they had received any instruction from Washington to help facilitate the release of Kilmar. The answer was no. I asked them if they had made any attempt to reach out to him. The answer was no.
So, it's very clear that the president and the Trump administration are blatantly, flagrantly, disagreeing with, defying the order from the Supreme Court. (CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: Senator, why were you allowed to meet with --
REPORTER: Talk about who from the Salvadoran government contacted you to facilitate this meeting?
[16:40:04]
You mentioned that there were terms associated with the meeting. Were you told not to reveal any details from the meeting until you came back to the United States? And were you at all concerned for your safety in and around this meeting taking place, or at any point during your time in El Salvador?
VAN HOLLEN: So, I was not concerned about my safety at this meeting. And I will say, you know, obviously there's a lot of uncertainty when you're approached by soldiers and have your car pulled over to the side of the road and told you can't go any further. But I will say that the soldiers acted professionally, okay, in their encounter with me. They had their orders. They implemented their orders.
In terms of -- I'm sorry, what was --
REPORTER: The meeting, how the meeting came to be? Who contacted you --
VAN HOLLEN: So, the meeting, they reached out to say they would meet, the Salvadoran government. I -- look, in El Salvador, everything happens because Bukele says it could happen. And if you look at the video he sent out right afterwards with the fake margaritas, you could see that all of that was a setup, okay? So that's why as to how I was notified, it was -- their message was transmitted to me through the embassy.
REPORTER: Senator --
REPORTER: Senator, can I -- can I ask? There's been a -- Senator --
VAN HOLLEN: Right here, and then I'll go right there.
REPORTER: Okay. So, the response from Republicans to your visit is that you. Care more to meet with Abrego Garcia than you do with Rachel Morin, who is the mother of a woman, a Maryland woman who died in your state.
What is your response to that criticism specifically?
VAN HOLLEN: Well, my response is that my -- my heart goes out to the family of Rachel Morin. As I said at the time, my heart breaks for what happened to them. That should not happen to any family in America. And I am very glad that a court of law convicted her killer and is going to punish her killer in a court of law.
The reason we have courts of law are to punish the guilty, but also to make sure that those who have not committed crimes are not found guilty and arbitrarily detained. In other words, everybody has due process.
So, the effort by the Trump administration to try to conflate these two issues goes to the heart of what I was just talking about, their effort to change the subject, but again, to the to the Morin family, I -- you know, we have three children. I cannot imagine losing a child in the heartbreak that caused. It should not happen. And my heart breaks for everybody in Maryland or America who has lost a loved one to violence, regardless of the perpetrator.
REPORTER: Senator, in your meeting with the vice president, were you able to glean any information about the United States agreement with El Salvador related to the detention facility? The terms, how much we pay, if the government has any say whatsoever, what happens inside?
VAN HOLLEN: So, I didn't learn that directly from the vice president, but I have learned about the commitments that have been made. So, the Trump administration has promised to pay El Salvador $15 million to detain these prisoners, including the illegally abducted Kilmar. My best information, and I'm pretty good indicates that to date, they've paid out more than $4 million of that $15 million.
As to the terms of an agreement, I've not seen an agreement. I don't know whether there is an agreement that specifically spells out the terms and conditions here. I am aware that there was some document that memorialized the payments, but again, I do not know in any way if it goes through the details.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: Senator, what's the next step here in light of the defiance of -- defiance from the Trump administration? What does Congress do?
VAN HOLLEN: So, you know, everybody asks those of us who are Democratic senators whether there's any bottom line where Republican senators will say enough's enough and wont simply become wont simply continue to be rubber stamps for the Trump administration.
So far, we haven't hit bottom. In this case, we have what I believe is an outright defiance of the Supreme Court. People still may want to hang their hat on the fact that it hasn't been completely adjudicated. As you know, the federal district court judge has ordered depositions of the administration officials.
[16:45:03]
The Trump administration appealed it. That's what the fourth circuit decision was all about. That may well go to the Supreme Court. I don't know if the Trump administration is appealing that.
So, the question is, is there any point when the president is violating the Constitution of the United States that Republicans will stand up for the Constitution rather than just continue to do the bidding of the Trump administration?
Well, when it comes to Congress. But let me say something on that. Not totally powerless because appropriations need to go through the Congress, and that $15 million, you can be sure we're going to be looking for where it is, because that wasn't authorized in previous appropriations. We're operating under a continuing resolution.
Now, they may try to pretend they can transfer that, but there's some indication that they were planning anyway until now to make that as part of their request. And you can be sure that I won't support the use of one penny of taxpayer dollars to keep Abrego Garcia illegally detained in El Salvador. And so, as part of that process, yes, Democrats, at least in the Senate, have some sway.
Now, I will say I want to say something about the government of El Salvador. They are making a huge mistake. You know, they want to brand themselves as a country for technology. You know, the president said, you know, bitcoin is legal tender.
But now what they're branding themselves as, as the place for these huge prisons where people who are illegally deducted, excuse me, illegally abducted, are warehoused. That is not a good look.
There are also other things Americans can do with respect to economic pressure on El Salvador. People can stop traveling there. Actually, tourism has been going up. They can stop traveling there.
There may be states that decide, you know, they don't want any of their pension funds invested in companies that invest in a place like El Salvador.
So, there are many things that can be done. And I just urge the president of El Salvador, the vice president of El Salvador, to rethink whether they want to become the place that just gets paid off for being complicit in this illegal scheme.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: Senator, have you talked to your colleagues? Have you talked to your colleagues who plan to go down? What do you -- what do you hope for?
VAN HOLLEN: Two more. We'll do two more right here.
REPORTER: Why did the Salvadoran government reverse itself on allowing you to meet with Mr. Abrego Garcia after telling you no? And also, do you have a sense of why the government transferred Mr. Abrego Garcia from CECOT to this other prison in Santa Ana?
VAN HOLLEN: Yeah. Well, I think the reason they relented is pretty clear. They were feeling the pressure. I mean, they were feeling the pressure because while I was in El Salvador, we had two major press conferences that included the local press who reported on this. And I think that they decided that it was not a good look to continue to detain Abrego Garcia without anybody having access to him.
There's no other explanation for the fact that they said, no, no, no, no, no, and then prevented us from going to the prison. So that's why.
I'm sorry, what was the second part of your question? REPORTER: The second part, why? And welcome home. Why did they
transfer him from CECOT to the other prison?
VAN HOLLEN: Oh, well, I mean, number one, I will say my main request was to meet with him. And as I said, he's no longer at CECOT, so he's at a different prison, which is pretty far outside of San Salvador. But in addition to that, I didn't even know that.
I mean, so, as we all thought, he was at CECOT. I mean, until I met with him. That's why I tried to go to CECOT. So, I think that's why they brought him. He wasn't brought him to see me.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: Do you think -- do you think that the White House -- do you think that the White House -- do you think that the White House was involved at all in facilitating this meeting? Do you think that the Trump administration --
VAN HOLLEN: I do not.
REPORTER: Do you think --
VAN HOLLEN: I have no basis for that.
REPORTER: Have you spoken to any of your colleagues who say that they plan to go down now that the president has seemed to shut the door? He lets you meet with him, but he said he's going back to detention and will not return. Have you spoken to them? And what do they hope to accomplish going forward?
VAN HOLLEN: So, I've told the vice president of El Salvador that I may be the first senator or member of congress to be in El Salvador to come down to El Salvador. But I won't be the last.
[16:50:01]
And there are others coming. I have got to give them a call after this meeting to brief them on my trip. But this goes back to the fact that, you know, El Salvador is making a big mistake. President El Salvador is making a big mistake in being complicit in this illegal scheme.
REPORTER: How long did you meet for? How long did you sit down?
VAN HOLLEN: We met for over half an hour. There was -- there was no -- an hour.
REPORTER: What else can you do and your colleagues do to prevent future illegal deportations like this?
REPORTER: Is there anything that --
REPORTER: The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Do you think that -- and El Salvador is a party to that? Do you think that you're mentioning that as part of what facilitated -- VAN HOLLEN: I think it could have been a factor because they are in
blatant violation of that requirement, that international law requirement, not only in this case, but actually in all of these cases, because I said the policy at that prison CECOT is to have no communication, not with your lawyer, not with your family, with nobody. That is a violation of international law. And as I mentioned, El Salvador is a signatory to that.
Thank you all very much for being here and --
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And most of all, thank all of you.
HUNT: All right. We have been listening to Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland, who has just returned from El Salvador. We actually learned quite a bit from the Senator. This, of course, his version of events, based on what he says, he talked to Kilmar Abrego Garcia about.
One of the top headlines here is that he says Abrego Garcia is no longer being held at CECOT, which is the abbreviation for that notorious prison that we have talked so much about. He had initially been held there. He has reportedly, according to Van Hollen, since been moved to a facility that is a little bit the conditions, apparently a little bit better there.
Van Hollen also relayed a story about how images of him and Abrego Garcia across the table from each other, with what appeared to be margaritas on the table, how that came to be that they were placed there by El Salvador. Government aides. He says that they did not drink out of them, and that he wanted the public to understand how they were trying to manipulate that imagery.
He also used the phrase when he was talking about Abrego Garcia illegally abducted, and he said as well, that this is about not just one man, but about anyone who might find themselves in this situation.
Our panel has been here watching alongside with me.
Chuck, your takeaways.
TODD: Look, I mean, he first of all, he seemed exhausted. You could sort of tell, I think, on that front. But --
HUNT: That sometimes brings out authenticity.
TODD: No, I was just going to say I feel like that that's, you know, it clearly -- I thought it was interesting what he didn't say is he wasn't sure whether the Trump administration was working with the Bukele administration to essentially orchestrate that meeting, but the fact that he's not in CECOT tells me the Salvadoran government is a little bit nervous. The Trump administration is a little bit nervous. They don't want anything to happen to him.
So, I think that to me, I take away that there they know that maybe they're going to actually have to facilitate his return in some way, or I don't think he would have gotten that kind of treatment.
HUNT: Yeah. Kara, really remarkable details in terms of describing. I mean --
SWISHER: Yeah.
HUNT: Let's be honest, those photos were first consumption on social media, right?
SWISHER: Sure, that's what they're designed --
HUNT: Which you are, of course, an expert on. He said, look, they made a mistake. If wed actually taken a drink of those margaritas, there would have been a little indentation in that line of salt.
SWISHER: Right. Well, this is where we are, right? Chuck and I were just saying that. And the thing is, this is where we are. Because everything is done in these narratives and these reductive narratives. Look, they were drinking and hanging out and partying.
And so, it's really important that he did say that, that we did not drink these. One of the things the Democrats don't do, as well as Republicans understand the reductive nature of information right now, and therefore they have to push back. We didn't drink the drinks. This is not Margaritaville. Et cetera. Et cetera.
And so, I thought it was good for him to explain what the situation was. It doesn't matter. There will be a conspiracy theory about it anyway.
HUNT: Yeah. And -- and so, yeah, here you can see and he this is why he was referencing it. It's a little hard to even see. But it's the --
TODD: But I see what he's talking about. You see --
HUNT: Right, the cherry --
TODD: And there's no --
SWISHER: Yeah. This is what we're doing. And they're experts.
HUNT: We need to say that Bay Buchanan (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: I'm sorry.
TODD: It is Friday.
HUNT: If we could get the whole -- yeah, there we go. And you can kind of see. And again, Van Hollen was saying that rim, he wasn't sure if it was salt or sugar. The President Bukele referenced them as margaritas. They don't really appear to be that way, at least the way we know them here in the U.S.
But again, Van Hollen noting, you can't see this. I mean, Mo, to this broader point, I mean, this is where we are. I will say there are some criticism of Van Hollen for these optics. He clearly felt like he needed to clear it up, right? What's your view of how -- what he did just now?
ELLEITHEE: He could have cleared it up much more concisely, didn't have to spend as much time talking about margaritas as he did, but.
[16:55:01]
TODD: He was tired, I will say that.
ELLEITHEE: Fair, right? But --
TODD: Kind of rambling.
ELLEITHEE: Look, I think everyone in the White House are giving each other high fives and everyone who supports the guy in El Salvador are giving each other high fives, right? Both sides have kind of gone to their corners and are saying, this is the fight we want to have, whereas I don't necessarily know it's the conversation the rest of the -- that would actually resonate with the rest of the country.
Again, I go back to what we were talking about earlier. It's less about him as it is about all of us. And if he were to have focused on that, he did it a little bit. He did a little bit there about a third of the way through, right where he said taking away his constitutional rights takes away all of our constitutional rights. That is the place to take this.
We don't know all of the details about this guy, so let's not make him a martyr. Let's make this about the fact that Donald Trump and his administration are chipping away at our rights on a daily basis. He's making our lives harder economically, and now hes making our lives harder on issues like this.
SWISHER: Using the word abduction was good. Abduction. You should say kidnaping is what the word is. An even easier word, a simpler word.
MAGUIRE: But then again, I've heard Republicans that have been on TV saying, well, you can't go back. You cannot -- this judge could not force the federal government to go to El Salvador, abduct that man and bring him back to the United States. He's not a U.S. citizen. That would be egregious.
I've heard Republicans say that, but Mo and I were talking about this during the presser. The more Democrats make this about the, quote/unquote, Maryland man, and less about the adjudication of the process, they are going to lose that argument. His wife did request a restraining order against him, that will be continued to be brought up. There are questions about his affiliation with gangs.
They are not arguing what they should be arguing. If they think they can win this. Instead, they are trying to make it about the man who is illegally in the United States. Hard stop. At the end of the day, they will lose that argument every single time in the court of public opinion.
TODD: I will say that I didn't think it was a good idea to have printed signs there that said, thank you, Van Hollen.
HUNT: Yeah.
TODD: That just made it look like a political event. Rather than he gets off the plane. I mean, really. Don't -- if you believe the other side is engaging in propaganda, which it's pretty clear Bukele is and Trump isn't here, be careful playing into it like this and I so in that sense, making it look like a rally and all of that was a little uncomfortable as far as the optics are concerned.
But you know, again, let's -- I'm sort of exhausted from debating optics. I understand Trump is made all politics optics. Right. We don't really deal with the substance. Ultimately, this is still about whether the rule of law applies to anybody in this country or not.
MAGUIRE: I think it's all substance. Yeah, Republicans are going to be able to continue to hit Van Hollen, Rachel Morin was a constituent of his who was murdered, and he didn't call her mother. He did not do this level of outreach. But for a man who was illegally here in the United States, he is pouring over himself, flying abroad to make sure that this man is taken care of.
But his actual constituents, the citizens of the United States, those people didn't matter to him. So, Republicans will continue to win this argument because Van Hollen and Democrats just don't get it.
SWISHER: Well, I -- actually no, I think it's a great story if you're saying people grabbed off the street without due process -- scare, I think --
HUNT: But he's illegal, that's all Republicans are going to have to say.
SWISHER: Yes, but --
ELLEITHEE: To a Georgia-born U.S. citizen --
MAGUIRE: And that's a problem.
ELLEITHTE: That's where this matter.
SWISHER: That's the story. If it could have -- could happen to you. It could happen to anyone.
HUNT: But they're not drawing that. That's not what they're doing. He did it very --
SWISHER: There's a thing.
HUNT: He did it very briefly because they're not good at this.
SWISHER: There's a thing in local news where whenever they have any topic, whatever, they're a friend of mine who does marketing for it said the line we use is it could happen to you. So killer bees, it could happen to you. Illegal abduction, it could happen --
TODD: Murder hornets
SWISHER: Murder --
HUNT: Margaritas, it could happen --
SWISHER: Margaritas, it could happen to you.
HUNT: I'm definitely terrified.
SWISHER: Conspiracy margaritas.
TODD: I tell my daughter at college, don't accept a drink from somebody you don't know if they poured the cup.
SWISHER: Right.
MAGUIRE: There you go.
SWISHER: All the ladies know that one.
HUNT: That's true.
SWISHER: But really, it could happen to you is a really good. All of us. It's all of us. He's all of us. And not focus on him. Because, again, you don't know his history.
MAGUIRE: That's the thing though, right? They are focusing on him and you can't even say he is one of us because again, he's an illegal -- he's not supposed to be in the country. He entered this country illegally and broke the laws to get here.
So, at the end of the day, he isn't one of us. And that's where Democrats are really struggling with --
SWISHER: Except he does have American --
MAGUIRE: He's got.
SWISHER: He's got a family.
MAGUIRE: And a wife who tried to put a restraining order on him, right? Like the more we go into him --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: I'm having Elian Gonzalez flashbacks because we were having that similar debate. This was the Cuban war and all of this stuff. And I don't -- I know this is 25 years old now.
HUNT: I remember.
TODD: But it is a -- in that, there's one of these, this is one of those. It's tough to find out what the there's no right answer. There's simply sort of it depends on how you're interpreting the moment here that were in and what you view a migrant in this country versus whether they're illegal. All -- all of those things, a lot of it has to do with your own view of America.
HUNT: And that says so much about where we are as Americans. Period. The end.
Thank you all very much for being here with us to do this today.
Thanks to all of you for being with us as well.
Don't go anywhere. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.
