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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

U.S. Stocks Plunge As Trump Again Bashes Federal Reserve Chair; Now: Prayers And Mourning In Rome After Death Of Pope Francis; Trump Defends Hegseth, Claims "No Dysfunction At All"; Trump To Attend Funeral Of Pope Francis. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Thanks so much for being with us here in THE ARENA.

You're looking at live pictures from St. Peter's Square in Rome, where mourners have been gathering throughout the day to honor Pope Francis. We're getting new reaction to the breaking news of his passing at the age of 88. And what's next for the Vatican and the Catholic Church.

But right now, we do want to start with another major breaking story. U.S. markets plunging today. The Dow Jones industrial down nearly 1,000 points just ahead of the closing bell.

Let's get to CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the White House as we listen for that bell, just about to ring here shortly (AUDIO GAP)

This nosedive has been prompted, at least in part, by President Trump's ongoing criticism of the chairman of the Federal Reserve. What unfolded there today?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Kasie, you can almost set your watch to it every time the president lashes out at the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, and talks about either firing him or calls him a name. The markets have responded very negatively.

And that's what we saw all day long today, the president putting out a message about ten minutes after the markets open. And let's take a look at that. I'm -- I'm told that this is one of the things that drove the selloff throughout the day. The president says this: There can be a slowing of the economy unless Mr. Too Late, he's talking to Jerome Powell, a major loser, lowers interest rates.

Now, Europe has already lowered seven times. Powell has been (AUDIO GAP) when he lowered it to help sleepy Joe Biden. Later, Kamala, get elected. How did that work out?

[16:00:01]

So, as we hear the applause, they're not applauding at what happened in (AUDIO GAP) again, I was talking to a top investor in New York who's been asking me, what is the president doing? He explained it to me like this, Kasie. He said the market is fixated on Powell being fired.

So that is one of the things that is really driving all this. Now. Theres very much an open question. Is the chair of the Federal Reserve able to be fired? It's an independent branch.

But the president says if I want him out, I'll be out as or he'll be out as fast as I say so. So, look, there's a big division and conversation going on still inside the administration about Jerome Powell's future. And the markets are reacting to that every single day that happens. It's an unforced error in the eyes of many market watchers here. But the president clearly is fixated on Jerome Powell, who we should point out he appointed him to this position during his first term -- Kasie.

HUNT: Yes, we absolutely -- we absolutely should point that out. And, you know, worth noting that the Federal Reserve chair, just after Donald Trump was declared the winner of the election in 2024, was out saying that he would not step aside in the event that President Trump were to push forward with firing him. This is something that came up in Trump's first term as well.

Powell learned he would have to pay for his own legal challenge to such a firing if it happened. He said then that he would -- he would spend every nickel on that. I guess well see if it's going to come to that for him.

Jeff Zeleny, thanks very much for starting us off today with that reporting. Really appreciate it.

All right. Let's turn now to the other big story we've been covering all day, the death of Pope Francis and the legacy he leaves behind. The Catholic Church, beginning their millennia old rituals that surround the passing of a pontiff, the funeral and the eventual conclave to choose his successor.

Let's start with CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward. She is with us from St. Peter's Square.

We also have with us, CNN chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour.

Clarissa, I want to start with you because you are on the scene there in Rome. Set the scene for us and tell us what were now hearing from the Vatican about the pope's death on this easter Monday.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, it's -- it's an interesting mood here because you're just starting to see more and more people flooding in, paying their respects.

I would say, what strikes you when you first get here is the sense of shock because although Pope Francis had been in the hospital for five weeks earlier this year with double pneumonia, although people understood very well that he was so ill, the fact that he had been continuing his daily duties in a somewhat diminished capacity, but nonetheless, even yesterday, meeting Vice President J.D. Vance, delivering that Easter blessing, although he was not able to deliver his full or to be or to be speech himself, an aide delivered it. But the very fact that he was on the balcony and was able to connect with his followers, people really, I think, took as -- as a mark of hope that he was recovering, that obviously he may not live much, much longer, but still a sense of shock that suddenly this morning, 7:35 a.m., Pope Francis passed away.

The Vatican has now said the cause of his death was heart failure. It was also a stroke, although compounded by those respiratory issues as well as type two diabetes, and the scene that you can just see behind me now, St. Peter's square with dozens, maybe possibly hundreds spread out, that is going to be very quickly. Thousands and thousands of people who will be pouring in to pay their respects. The Vatican announcing that the pope's body could lie in state as early as Wednesday. The anticipation is that then there would be a funeral and burial, potentially as early as Friday or Saturday or Sunday.

We learned also today from the Vatican that the pope had been very specific in terms of how he wanted to be buried, where he wanted to be buried in a tomb in the ground. And he said that he did not want any inscription, just the word Franciscus. And I think that really speaks to the appeal of this pope. This pope was not about the trappings and the luxury and the opulence of these rituals that are centuries old. He was very much about building a church that is more inclusive, more welcoming, more open, and really focused on the needs of the poor.

HUNT: It -- you're right that it is a really remarkable thing that symbolizes so much about who this man was.

And, Christiane Amanpour, you actually met the pope in 2014? Tell us a little bit about that and your reflections today.

[16:05:00]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, Kasie, like everybody, you know, even if you're a Catholic or a Christian or not, the pope was considered a moral voice, an increasingly lonely moral voice. In our world today, there's about 1.3 billion Catholics around the world, but even more people really look to him as a moral authority.

And I think that when he first came into -- into office as pope, it was because of the unprecedented resignation of his predecessor, Pope Benedict, that had never happened before. And so, the whole way he came into office was completely different in terms of papal history. And the first things he did was really, really go and minister to the poor and the dispossessed. One of his first trips was to Lampedusa, which is the island south of Italy, where a lot of if you remember at the time, there were a lot of migrant boats coming from North Africa.

So many people died, so many people drowned. The prime minister at the time called the mediterranean a massive graveyard, and Pope Francis went there. And it also said mass on an altar that had been made out of the wood of the some of these boats that had washed ashore.

So, he really was somebody who -- who put his essentially his -- his mouth where his spirit was. And one of his first, in fact, his first encyclical, which is a big papal authored paper, was for the climate, for protecting our environment. So, he's done a huge amount.

And when I actually went to Rome to see him in this environment in 2014, it was at a gathering of different church leaders from all sorts of different faiths, different countries, who had come together around the idea of trying to identify and abolish modern day slavery. So, I had this little, you know, it wasn't totally spontaneous. You don't get to interview the pope. But I was able to ask this question, and he answered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Holy father, you played a key role in establishing the global freedom network. You were the first person to call modern slavery and human trafficking a crime against humanity. As you appeal for this scourge to be eradicated once and for all, tell us what exactly motivated your passion about this particular scourge?

POPE FRANCIS, CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): On behalf of all of us and our beliefs and persuasions, we declare that human slavery, in terms of prostitution, organ exploitation, and also human trafficking, is a crime against humanity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So, the pope was known to have been the first of the Catholic popes to have, really accepted gay people. He was famously asked about gay marriage and homosexuality, and he said, who am I to judge? Those were unprecedented words from a pope.

He did more than any other pope to try to give women more of a position in the church. They are not priests at all, but try to raise their status in the church.

And he was absolutely determined to pray for peace. He always did that. And, you know, he called the little Catholic enclave in Gaza every single night from the beginning of the war to the end of his life. And that was just unbelievable. So many people there spoke about it, and it's being reported again today.

HUNT: Really fascinating.

All right, Christiane and Clarissa, please do stay with us as we continue this conversation with Elizabeth Dias. She is the religion and politics reporter for "The New York Times". Kim Daniels, the director of the Initiative on Catholic Social Thought and Public Life at Georgetown University.

Welcome to both of you. Thank you so much for being here.

We do want to mention here, we're just learning here at CNN that President Trump will attend Pope Francis's funeral. That just in posted on his social media platform.

But, Kim, as you know, the person who's really enmeshed in the Catholic Church specifically, can you talk a little bit about how the Catholic Church is different now that Pope Francis has served the way he did?

KIM DANIELS, DIRECTOR, INITIATIVE ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT AND PUBLIC LIFE, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Pope Francis really has put his mark on the church over the last 12 years of his papacy, and I think he's had this legacy. He will have a legacy of spiritual renewal on the one hand, and structural reform on the other. Talks about building a better kind of politics, talks about having a church that's not a fortress, but a home with open doors.

And I think he's created that spirit. He's appealed to and reached out to the poor and the vulnerable. He calls for a poor church for the poor. He's really left a church that is both rooted in tradition and also forward looking.

It's a sad day for Catholics, and at the same time, we look forward with hope.

HUNT: Yeah, absolutely. A sad day for so many who are members of the church.

Elizabeth, I read with interest some of the reporting you've done about Pope Francis's impact on the church here in the United States, as well.

[16:10:02]

And he, of course, and Christiane and Clarissa both touched on this, but he really had this progressive way of being, right? But you wrote that it actually led in some ways to divisions here at home. And you write this it was the same transformative vision that ultimately fueled the rise of an energized, conservative Catholic resistance, which further divided the church in America.

Pope Francis' cardinals had a minority voice, excuse me, among U.S. bishops. And in the final years of his papacy, powerful conservative lay Catholics once again made ending abortion their dominant priority. Conservative Catholic backlash to values like Pope Francis has helped return President Trump to the White House, with Vice President Vance, a Catholic convert, by his side, advancing priorities that conflicted with Pope Francis. And of course, we saw, you know, the president will talk about this later in the show. The president clashed with Pope Francis at various points, right?

ELIZABETH DIAS, NEW YORK TIMES RELIGION AND POLITICS REPORTER: Many times. That's part of one of the defining features of their relationships was the opposite sets of Christian values that they each sought to elevate. And I've been reflecting today on just what the moment of Pope Franciss elevation to the papacy was like more than ten years ago now, and how different America was at the time. I mean, this last decade was one of such radical transformation in politics and society over such controversial and essential issues like immigration and climate change. And we watched the Republican Party radicalize, along with President Trump. And it's hard to even remember the time when Pope Francis visited and came to Congress.

And everyone on both sides of the aisle was just so happy to see him. There wasn't that sense of division, but were really in a different place now, and the partisan elements are -- are absolutely a defining legacy of where we are. So, it will be interesting to see where the church goes from here. But it is it is also true that I think Catholics do come together on a day like this and remember their shared values that he -- he offered for them in leading the church.

HUNT: Of course, Clarissa Ward, Christiane mentioned this. We also are addressing it here. I mean, that question of migrants and embracing, you know, those less fortunate people who are coming to our shores. Frankly, that sort of pattern in politics across the board is what's driven many Western societies to rightward turns in elections. But it was something that Pope Francis never wavered on.

WARD: He never wavered on that at all. He was absolutely committed to what he believed was important, what he believed brought people closer to God. He talked about this idea globalization of indifference, which really struck me as a concept, the idea that people, through the course of life, their hearts become hardened. They stop caring about the suffering of the poor, of the marginalized.

He was so committed to trying to galvanize that awareness, to trying to open people's hearts. And I just spoke to a woman earlier from Argentina, and she was standing very quietly, just looking at St. Peter's. And I asked her, you know, what does it mean to you to be here today? She said, of course, as an Argentinian, the pope was very special to us, but also for me as an individual, because the church had started to feel so distant to me. It had started to feel like it was speaking a different language than the language of my life and my existence.

And yet, Pope Francis was somebody who really tried to kind of cross that bridge and extend a hand and shift the conversation away from all of these divisive issues, whether it be divorce, whether it be abortion, whether it be homosexuality, and try to center the conversation on some kind of a shared humanity, which so many people, religious or not, found very powerful and compelling.

HUNT: Yeah, it really, really a fine way to -- to put that.

And, Christiane, I mean, as we wrap up our, our conversation here, Pope Francis, to Clarissa's point, I mean, this was a man who before he was pope, but and, you know, he couldn't really do this when he was, but he took the subway, right? Clarissa mentioned he wanted to be buried in this simple tomb. He didn't live in the ornate papal apartments.

And if you think back throughout the centuries of the history of the Catholic Church, there have been times when the Catholic Church has in many ways become more distant from the flock that it was supposed to serve. And oftentimes, it was -- it was in those kind of ornate symbols, all of the money, the trappings that sort of led it a little bit astray.

I mean, Francis, clearly, wanted to get back to the simplest version of what it meant to be a member of the faithful. AMANPOUR: Well, 100 percent, from the very first day when he said he

wasn't going to live in a Vatican apartment, to now, when he says he's going to be buried in this beautiful church called Santa Maria Maggiore, but it's not in the Vatican at St. Peter's, where most of the popes are buried.

[16:15:07]

But look, he really, really believed in that. And he took the name Francis as the first ever pope to have done that. St. Francis of Assisi was known for his love of animals, his ascetic lifestyle, and that was a very deliberate choice. The pope did simple things like you were like you were saying he loved football. You can imagine being -- being from Argentina and Messi and all the rest of it. He had half a lung, which was contributed to part of his of his illness.

And he was also, though most importantly, the son of a family who fled Italy, Mussolini's fascist Italy, to go to Argentina. And he throughout his papacy has inveighed against nationalist populism. He has been speaking increasingly towards the end of his life about protecting democracy, human rights, and all those kind of values which have been so threatened for so long in our recent history.

HUNT: Yeah.

AMANPOUR: So he really had a major voice on, on all those issues.

HUNT: All right. Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much. Clarissa, thanks to you as well.

Kim, Elizabeth, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I really appreciate it.

All right. Coming up next here, the pope's progressive message to people of all faiths. The episcopal bishop of Washington, who has had some pointed words for President Trump from the pulpit, joins us live as our coverage of the death of Pope Francis continues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS: We, the people of this continent, are not fearful of foreigners because most of us -- because most of us were once foreigners.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:20]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS: If a person is gay and accepts the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge them?

(END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: "Who am I to judge them?" he said.

Pope Francis leaving behind a legacy as a man who dared to push the Catholic Church to question long standing doctrine, expanding the historically traditional institutions acceptance of LGBTQ people and emphasizing compassion for marginalized communities. Francis, ultimately emerging as one of the world's most vocal progressive leaders, even as many countries have recently gravitated to the political right.

The pontiff shared this message about immigrant families during his visit to the United States back in 2015.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS: As the son of an immigrant family, I'm happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families.

I look forward to these days of encounter and dialogue, in which I hope to listen to and share many of the hopes and dreams of the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Joining us now, the Episcopalian bishop of Washington, Mariann Edgar Budde, who, of course, has become you've become a national religious leader in your own right.

I'm very grateful to have you here, as we remember, Pope Francis. And I know this is just an incredible day of mourning for people of all faiths, and especially your Catholic colleagues.

BISHOP MARIANN EDGAR BUDDE, EPISCOPAL DIOCESE OF WASHINGTON: Absolutely. And I simply wanted to extend deep condolences to all in the roman catholic church, and especially those in our communities. Cardinal McElroy, who has just taken his post. Cardinal Gregory before him, all the congregations who are gathering and around the country, and as you saw around the world.

And we join them in their grief. He felt like he was our pope, too. We loved him so much. And he was such an inspiration, but also for the Roman Catholic World, such a such an inspired and beloved leader.

HUNT: Talk a little bit about the way that Pope Francis lived his own life and ministered to people and what that said about the kind of church that he wanted to be leading?

BUDDE: When -- when he was named pope. It was one of the first things that was immediately clear that this was a man who lived his Christian life and leadership in such a way that you would recognize him as a Christian if you weren't a Christian, because he was dedicated to the teachings of Jesus in the most practical, hands on way.

The way he interacted with people, the way he enjoyed people, the way he cared, especially for the poor. The way he chose a simple life. And he signaled from the beginning that that was the kind of pope he was going to be.

HUNT: I feel like sometimes he would use the word. He would talk about what it would mean to be Christian in that kind of very nostalgic way that sometimes the word Christian would be a synonym for kind. You should behave in a Christian way.

BUDDE: Right. That that seemed really sad, actually, to me. But, yeah.

HUNT: Well, but I think the reason I fixated on that is because I -- part of me wishes that that that could be true in our daily lives.

BUDDE: Me, too.

[16:25:00]

And it's actually one of the biggest sources of grief.

Now, to be honest, Christians have a lot to answer for. We haven't always been kind. Of course, we aren't always kind. The history of our church and the pope was always very quick not to criticize other traditions. He was open and curious and respectful, but he was willing to take a critical look at his own church, and to apologize for the ways that the church had failed.

And -- but as he lived his life and as he sought to live and emulate from -- from the beginning of his leadership, he sought to -- to be the kind of person that would be recognized as one (AUDIO GAP) the teachings of Jesus.

HUNT: One of the things that, of course, Pope Francis did a number of times, including fairly recently, is criticize the political leadership, of course, in in this country. He, you know, obviously weighed in in other places as well. But you've been in a position a similar position of being a religious leader who offers a message to a political leader in a way that is probably, I imagine, quite difficult to deal with.

But it seems that he felt it was a responsibility. How did how did you view the way he handled that?

BUDDE: His concern and his focus was always on the people. And I heard someone say to him, say it about him this morning, something I will -- will carry with me forever is that he refused to pursue. He refused to see any human being as a problem, that every human being has worth and dignity.

And if immigration, for example, which was his clearest, most perhaps incisive criticism of the policies of our country now, he was always focused on the person that was making his or her way or their way in the scores and thousands of people who are -- who are desperate to seek a better life. And he would never falter in his plea for those of us who are on the desperate circumstances, to receive them, as we would receive -- as we would receive Christ himself.

HUNT: What do you think we need from our religious leaders, from the next pope? BUDDE: Well, I would hope that there would be a continuation of that

outward focus and that curiosity about the ways that the spirit of God is at work in the world, and that there would be an unfaltering commitment to the principles of Jesus that we would recognize in the next pope, the same kind of life and leadership and love that we've been so blessed with by Pope Francis here.

HUNT: We're so blessed, of course, with you as well.

BUDDE: Thank you.

HUNT: Thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.

All right. Coming up next here, President Trump's public defense of Pete Hegseth. There is some other news today, as the former Hegseth aide argues that the Pentagon chief's days are numbered after reports that he shared military details in a second Signal chat, a chat that apparently included his wife and his brother.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:42]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED SATES: Are you bringing up Signal again? I thought they gave that up two weeks ago.

REPORTER: It was a different report this weekend that he used in a separate chat that included some family members.

TURMP: It's all -- it's all -- just the same old stuff from the media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was President Trump earlier this morning, asked about reports that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared detailed plans about a military operation against the Houthis in Yemen, in a second Signal group chat.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand joins us now. She did much of this reporting for CNN.

Natasha, so we learned that Pete Hegseth spoke on the phone with the president after this story broke. What's the latest?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kasie. Our Kaitlan Collins reported that last night after the stories broke in "The New York Times" and CNN that Hegseth had used signal a second time to discuss sensitive military plans against the Houthis, Donald Trump and Hegseth did speak by phone. It's not clear exactly how that conversation went at this point, but it did apparently touch upon these stories as well as, of course, the firings of three top officials at the pentagon just last week. And kind of all of the drama that has ensued from that.

But Trump, he's standing by Hegseth, at least publicly at this point. He said that he believes Hegseth is doing a great job. Quote, everybody's happy with him. And he said its fake news. Also attributing a lot of the stories to disgruntled former employee, something that Hegseth is saying as well as a reason why all of this is coming out right now.

Here's a bit of what he said earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. Not going to work with me, because we're changing the Defense Department, putting the Pentagon back in the hands of warfighters, and anonymous smears from disgruntled former employees on old news doesn't matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERTRAND: So, we should note here that two of those former disgruntled employees, as he describes them, were actually hired by Secretary Hegseth, brought in by him to the Pentagon for these senior roles. They are not staying quiet. They released a statement over the weekend saying that they were being slandered, denying that they had leaked anything.

And of course, the Pentagon's former top spokesperson, John Ullyott, also released a very scathing op-ed in "Politico" last night, saying that there has been a, quote, total meltdown at the Pentagon over the last month because of Secretary Hegseth -- Kasie.

[16:35:01]

HUNT: Yeah, worth underscoring there, Natasha, that that was not anonymous as Pete Hegseth was just saying there.

Natasha Bertrand, thanks so much for your reporting. Really appreciate it.

And of course, in the wake of all of this, one Republican member of Congress says Hegseth is acting, quote, like he is above the law. In an interview with "Politico", Congressman Don Bacon said this, quote, if it's true that he had another Signal chat with his family about the missions against the Houthis, it's totally unacceptable. I'm not in the White House. I'm not going to tell the White House how to manage this, but I find it unacceptable, and I wouldn't tolerate it if I was in charge.

So even some of Hegseth allies are speaking out against him or former allies. I suppose this is what Natasha was referencing. Trump still publicly standing by Hegseth, as the White House denies a report that its looking to replace Hegseth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REPORTER: Mr. President, are you concerned about the level of chaos and dysfunction that's being described at your Pentagon?

TRUMP: There's no dysfunction. Go ask the Houthis how much dysfunction. There is none. Pete's doing a great job. Just fake news. They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees.

You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people. And that's what he's doing. So, you don't always have friends when you do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Our panel is here, CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams, CNN political commentator, Republican strategist Kristen Soltis Anderson, former Democratic New York Congressman Max Rose, and CNN's senior political commentator Scott Jennings.

Welcome to all of you.

Scott Jennings, this one's for you.

The secretary of defense putting his family on a on his personal phone on a Signal group chat. Don Bacon, of course, one of the most endangered Republicans in Congress. This, of course, as the spokesman, the former spokesman, who, by the way, had argued for Hegseth to get the job in the first place, says like this is a total mess.

Should President Trump be standing by Hegseth the way he is or should he not?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, a couple of things. One, on the Signal issues. I mean, I think the White House initially, when the story first came out a few weeks ago, acknowledged it was a mistake to use Signal. So that's number one.

Number two, based on the people I've spoken to in the White House today, there is no way they are going to throw Hegseth overboard over this. They will double down on this. They will dig in. That's not the way things work in Trump world. I spoke to someone who'd spoken to the president today, and what you saw publicly is what you're also hearing privately that he is not interested in giving the media or the Democrats a win here over this Signalgate issue.

So, my expectation is they're going to stick with Hegseth, at least for now, and double down on the fight over these signal issues, which they consider to be over with and not that big of a deal.

HUNT: Okay. So, they think that they don't want to give Democrats a win. But, Elliot Williams, my question is like if, you know, this is what we're reporting, right, that it was a Signal chat, personal phone, members of his family. So again, separate from like the national security officials who all had security clearances, right. And were like allowed to see a lot of the information presumably.

Did he break the law?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He certainly violated the standards for handling information and maybe broke the law.

Now, the question is, what do you do about it? And I just, you know, and picking up on your point, Scott, I just when it comes to the questions of his competence to serve the question, it always goes quickly to, well, they don't want to give Democrats a win or -- well, we came out of Joe Biden and Lloyd Austin.

Therefore, somebody else should be secretary of defense. No one is making a compelling argument for Pete Hegseth competence to be secretary of defense.

HUNT: And the choice is not necessarily Lloyd Austin or Pete Hegseth, but Lloyd Austin. Not any Republican, right?

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: That's how it's framed. But these people don't just exist like in a pod, and you pop the pod and put the next one in. There's a confirmation.

They spent an enormous amount of political capital on getting Hegseth confirmed to bail on that now, I think would be just. And I just don't think it's in their DNA to do that.

WILLIAMS: But you're kind of confirming my point, though, which is that it's a question of what it would take to get someone else in the job, not is this person who appears to be manifestly unfit to be running a multi-billion dollar agency with hundreds of thousands of employees --

JENNINGS: They don't agree with that.

WILLIAMS: I know -- I know they don't, and I don't think they're taking advice from me on this. But -- but the point is, it always gets to, well, it would be difficult to put somebody else in. Well, well, the other guys were worse and not. We actually want this person to be running one of the most cabinet departments in our government.

MAX ROSE (D), FORMER NEW YORK CONGRESSMAN: So, every opportunity gets Secretary Hegseth talks about returning to the Department of Defense to the warrior mindset. I've served in the military for 15 years. I can tell you the number one issue with the warrior mindset is leaders don't always follow the rules that lowest level service members are held to.

I can promise you that a service member on day two with a security clearance would not only be fired for doing what Secretary Hegseth did, but would also be potentially imprisoned, according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. This is not only reckless, this puts the lives of service members at risk.

And it shows once again another piece of evidence in a long story now, that Pete Hegseth is not qualified for this job, and I don't think we've ever seen this as a nation where the secretary of defense is on a weekly basis, endangering the lives of our troops.

[16:40:15]

HUNT: Kristen, at what point and what do voters tell you about how much this matters to them and how they perceive it?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, I think if this is an inside the beltway story, right? Somebody who's a principal in a communications war with people who are their former staff, that is a playbook that has been run frequently during the Trump era, both Trump 1.0 and now Trump 2.0, where you have people who leave they say you will not believe what I saw on the inside and it becomes this, he said/she said problem.

However, if the Department of Defense actually does melt down, as some of these folks have been saying, that's the point at which I can see voters beginning to say, oh, maybe this isn't.

JENNINGS: What is the evidence for the meltdown, though? I know this argument has been made. We are pounding the Houthi rebels. Morale is up. Recruitment is up in the military. I mean, some of the things that I think we're going wrong in the military are clearly being corrected. So, the idea that there's a meltdown in progress, I think the -- I guess there's --

ANDERSON: Yes, that is why -- it would have to be something voters would have to feel that there is a meltdown in progress rather than it just be bickering in the press. We unfortunately are going to have to take a break. I will just say that John Ullyot, who wrote this opinion piece, who called it a meltdown -- I have known him for many, many years. He is no liberal. Okay?

So, I -- if he's out there saying publicly that there is some evidence, I guess let's just wait and see, find out what exactly it is he's talking about.

All right. Up next here, we're going to turn back to our other top story today, a prominent Catholic voice here in the U.S. on the death of Pope Francis and the future of the church. The president of the University of Notre Dame in Indiana will join us as bells toll around the world in memory of the pope, including at Notre Dame in Paris.

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[16:46:24]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back.

The late Pope Francis in leading the Catholic Church through a period of scandal, fundamentally reshaped the institution with a series of structural reforms that were aimed at modernizing it and adapting it in his image. He appointed 108 cardinals who shared his more progressive vision for what the church should be. And now, those very cardinals that he appointed will embark on the millennia old process of picking a new pontiff -- the man who will choose whether to carry on Francis's legacy of reform. Joining us now to discuss, the president of the University of Notre

Dame, Father Robert Dowd.

Father, I'm so grateful to have you on the show. And my condolences, of course, to you and the millions of Catholics around the world who are mourning him today.

I was just hoping to hear your reflections on his legacy.

FATHER ROBERT DOWD, PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: Well, first of all, thank you, Kasie. Thank you for having me. It's great to be together.

Certainly, there's some sadness. We will all miss Pope Francis, but there's also a great gratitude for his amazing life.

He was a great pastor. And he's somebody who was very focused on the needs of -- of all people, but especially those who are most vulnerable and those on the margins. And I think we can -- we'll always -- will be inspired for a long time by the amazing example of Pope Francis.

HUNT: I'm interested to know your sense of where the church is likely to go from here, certainly after the movie "Conclave", I'm sure there are a lot more Americans who feel like they know a little bit about the white smoke and the process that goes into all of that. But one of the things that Pope Francis did, of course, was appoint cardinals who shared his view of the world. When the cardinals come together, what's your sense of what direction they may choose for the church? Do you think they'll follow in Francis footsteps?

DOWD: Well, Kasie, one thing that Pope Francis did do is he -- he appointed cardinals from various parts of the world, including the Global South. And so, I think the college of cardinals is more globally representative of the church. And who knows what they will do. We really believe that the holy spirit is at work and will be at work during the conclave. But, but, you know, no doubt that the -- the next pope will be somebody who will build on the legacy of Pope Francis.

We trust that the next pope will be a servant leader like Pope Francis, focused on meeting people where they are and focused on mercy and on forgiveness and on justice and peace.

So, we're hopeful that the next pope will build on Pope Francis's legacy, and also the legacy of his predecessors.

HUNT: Father, this, of course, is a very divided time here in America, also around the world. What do you hope? What role do you hope the next pope might take in ministering to that division? And what do you think that that can mean here in the United States?

DOWD: Well, I certainly think that the pope is to be a bridge builder. Pope Francis was a remarkable bridge builder, and he's inspired us here at Notre Dame to be about the work of building bridges across differences. And, you know, differences are nothing new to the Catholic Church. They are nothing new in our society.

But certainly, if differences become deep, deep divisions, that's a big problem.

[16:50:03]

I think Pope Francis is inspiring all of us to do our best to be bridge builders. And certainly, my hope is that the next pope will be a bridge builder who will help to bring people together across differences, help people to recognize what they have in common. So, I have a great deal of hope that the next pope, like Pope Francis, will be a great bridge builder. That's what the world needs. That's what the church needs.

HUNT: We all could use some more bridges in our own lives.

Father Robert Dowd, very grateful to you for spending some time with us today. Sir, thank you very much.

DOWD: Thank you, Kasie. Thank you very much.

All right. Let's turn now to this. President Trump says that he and First Lady Melania Trump will, in fact, attend the funeral of Pope Francis in Vatican City after telling reporters earlier in the day he wasn't yet sure of his plans. The two men, Trump and Francis, who met in 2017, were both elected, selected as outsiders but sparred from afar over their vastly different views of policy and the world.

And our panel is back.

And to that point you know, one of the things, of course, that is often remembered here is what Pope Francis had to say. This was in February of 2016, when Donald Trump was running for president, and he was talking about building a wall. This is what Francis had to say at the time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS: A person who thinks only about building walls wherever they may be and not of building bridges, is not Christian.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Is not Christian.

And of course, here was how Donald Trump, on the campaign trail a few days later, responded. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The pope is hitting me hard. And he said things about the border. And you can't have a wall. And I said, wow, but I've seen the Vatican. Thats the biggest, strongest wall I've ever seen, right? I've never seen a wall like that. In fact, I want to use that as my model for the wall we want to build.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Pretty remarkable moment in what was a very remarkable campaign, Kristen. And of course, this is how Trump reacts to anyone who criticizes him. But it was really kind of remarkable. And this is not the first -- I mean, just, you know, a few months ago Pope Francis was he called the deportation plans that Trump had a disgrace.

ANDERSON: I'm very glad that President Trump will be attending the funeral. I think of this as much, much, much bigger than politics. You have a billion believers around the world who have been very moved by Francis and what he did as pope. And, of course, when it comes to U.S. politics, there are going to be some issues like immigration, where the Catholic Church's position is perhaps going to be to the left of where someone like Donald Trump is. On an issue like abortion, it's going to be the other way around.

This is, I think, what is so interesting about the Catholic Church is that as an institution that has been around for so long, it has had to find ways to modernize as issues like climate change have come to the forefront, et cetera., while also staying true to the core tenets of Catholic belief, still being there, something that people who are conservative and progressive alike can find meaning in.

And I think that Francis's legacy is going to be one where he did an incredible amount to both modernize the institution as well and lead it into the future, while staying true to much of what has made it important over the millennia.

WILLIAMS: I would say two things. One, I think we're denying or kidding ourselves if we don't think that a pope is a political leader. He -- and it's always going to be a he -- is a head of state for not necessarily for a billion people, but for, you know, a major institution. And if you think about some of the issues that he's waded into, Ukraine abortion, China, borders, immigration, migration --

HUNT: Gaza.

WILLIAMS: -- Gaza, these are all volatile political statements.

Now to Kristen's point, you know, he -- it's challenging this question of modernizing the Catholic Church because you're attempting to liberalize an inherently conservative institution and a lot of things that the pope did and said were trying to be all things to all people, and both conservatives and liberals in the church were just sort of unhappy with what they got.

HUNT: Yeah.

All right. Unfortunately, we are out of time for this conversation. We'll be right back.

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HUNT: All right, before we go, we want to leave you with this. Pope Francis visited our nation's Capitol building back in 2015. He shared with Congress his golden rule. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS: If we want security, let us give security. If we want life, let us give life. If we want opportunity, let us provide opportunities. The yardstick we use for others will be the yardstick which time use for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Pretty remarkable message.

Jake Tapper is standing by for THE LEAD for us.

Jake, a really remarkable life and a remarkable legacy indeed.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, "THE LEAD": Indeed, indeed. Yeah, it's a -- it's a sad day, but he -- he affected so many people's lives for the better. So, it's really quite a legacy. Thanks, Kasie. Appreciate it.

HUNT: Have a good show.