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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

U.S. Stocks Close Sharply Higher Amid Volatility Over Trump's Tariffs; White House: Trump Admin Is Questioning The Independence Of Federal Reserve; White House Strongly Defends Pete Hegseth As Embattled Defense Secretary Attacks His Critics; Pope Francis' Funeral To Be Held In St. Peter's Square On Saturday. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:01]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: That is music to the ears of the market. Thats exactly what the market wanted to hear.

Now again, it was behind closed doors. And we often get these mixed messages coming from the administration. But these are the kind of little crumbs that you see Wall Street trying to chase. And it's certainly working here for sure.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah. We should point out the White House has not indicated that there have been direct talks with China. So, we'll see where that goes.

Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon.

"THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.

(MUSIC)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: There's breaking news right here on CNN.

Let's head into THE ARENA.

U.S. stocks making gains at the closing bell. Even as the Dow Jones Industrials remain on track for their worst April since the Great Depression. Are the Trump administration's new comments about tariffs giving investors hope in this volatile, fear driven market?

Plus, the White House just issued a new defense of Pete Hegseth as the embattled Pentagon chief responds to his newest Signal chat controversy with deflection and defiance.

And we'll go live to Vatican City as we are learning more about the funeral planned for Pope Francis. And new details about his final words before his passing.

(MUSIC)

HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Tuesday. As U.S. stocks seem to be snapping back from yesterdays steep sell off

in the ongoing climate of fear and uncertainty surrounding President Trump's trade war. The Dow, the S&P and the Nasdaq all sharply higher at the closing bell just moments ago. You can see it there. It erased much of Mondays losses.

The markets were responding in part to new remarks from Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. Sources telling CNN that Bessent told investors the trade war with China is unsustainable, and he expects a de-escalation soon. T

his as the White House just claimed they're making new progress in trade negotiations with Beijing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We're doing very well in respect to a potential trade deal with China. As I mentioned, there have now been 18 proposals and more than 100 countries around the world who are wanting to make a deal with the United States of America. And the president and the administration are setting the stage for a deal with China. So, we feel everyone involved wants to see a trade deal happen, and the ball is moving in the right direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So those remarks from the podium, coming on the heels of yet another warning about the potential impact of the presidents unprecedented trade war, the International Monetary Fund now describing the barrage of U.S. tariffs and countermeasures as a, quote, major negative shock to growth in the global economy.

The IMF forecasting U.S. economic growth will slow to 1.8 percent this year, sharply down from its pre-tariff estimate in January.

Let's get straight to CNN's Jeff Zeleny, who is at the White House.

Jeff, what are we learning from the White House here? Because obviously, today in the markets, a better day than yesterday. But quite frankly, we have seen you and I have talked many a time, many a day in the last couple of weeks here at 4:00 p.m. with exactly this kind of swing back and forth as these questions about the pillars, the American backed pillars of the financial system potentially weakening in the face of this. What are you hearing from Trump administration officials right now?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, one thing is clear. The role of the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, all along has been to calm the markets. That's what we saw again earlier today as -- as you just mentioned. And the president did not weigh in at all today. He may. Coming up this hour, we shall see.

But when the markets were open, the president did not weigh in at all. He did not talk about the chairman of the Federal Reserve as he did yesterday. Of course, he called him a major loser. He called him -- he called on him to lower interest rates, and the market reacted negatively all day long.

The president has been utterly silent on the markets, utterly silent on the Federal Reserve, even as the White House says. The press secretary said today believes that they still believe that Jerome Powell has some work to do.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: I think the president has made his position on the Fed and on Powell quite clear. The president believes that they have been making moves and taking action in the name of politics, rather in the name of what's right for the American economy. The president has the right to express his displeasure with the Fed, and he has the right to say he believes interest rates should be lowered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So the president has the right to express his displeasure with the Fed. Of course he does. But he did not do that today. And the market did not go down. So perhaps there was a correlation to that. We shall see.

But I think the thing that the White House is pointing to are these potential deals that are coming up. They say they're close to a negotiating deals about with 18 different countries or so.

[16:05:01]

We shall see how that plays out.

You'll remember that Peter Navarro said they can do 90 deals in 90 days.

HUNT: They do.

ZELENY: That sounded ambitious at the time. So, look, July 8th is that date that's circled on the calendar when this a pause on these tariffs is supposed to be lifted. So, we shall see how the progress goes.

But for today, at least, the markets seemed to react okay to the White House, largely because the president said nothing at all -- Kasie.

HUNT: I'm just going to say, this is one of those rare times when we see the president, you know, speak so freely in public, so aggressively in public. Normally, there aren't necessarily immediate consequences for that speech, but there sure are in the markets, when he's talking about Jerome Powell.

Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much for that reporting. And we may have some news at the White House. We'll come back to jeff if we do throughout this hour.

But our panel does join us now, CNN contributor, "New York Times" journalist, podcast host, Lulu Garcia-Navarro; journalist, author of "The Red Letter" on Substack, Tara Palmeri; Democratic strategist Adrienne Elrod; and CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings.

Everyone is with us.

Thank you all for being here today. Really appreciate it.

Tara Palmeri, let's start big picture on Trump and how you know, his he has these personal vendettas, right. In many areas of his political life, presumably his personal life as well. But in this case, his political life. And normally, in recent years, he has been able to win essentially all of them, right?

He takes on someone, whether it's, you know, firing somebody in his own orbit. Obviously, he won reelection against Joe Biden. The situation with Jerome Powell seems to be distinctly different in that there are immediate repercussions for him in the markets.

Do you read into any -- like do you read anything into the fact that we didn't hear from him on that today?

TARA PALMERI, JOURNALIST; AUTHOR, "THE RED LETTER" ON SUBSTACK: I think it's really interesting.

So, Jerome Powell is a tough one to touch, right? Like during the first administration, he was constantly bullying him on Twitter as well. He would -- he would say you have to lower the interest rates, you have to lower the interest rates. And that was one of his fights.

But he never went so far as to fire him, even though he threatened to. It was kind of like Mueller -- with Robert Mueller. He kept saying, it's a witch hunt. It's a witch hunt. We're going to get rid of the special counsel. But he never actually did it.

And so maybe he realizes there's a red line. The red line is an economic meltdown. And firing Jerome Powell would lead to that. And I think he's aware. And so, if he's playing bad cop and, you know, Scott Bessent is playing good cop out there and trying to calm the markets, I think he is aware that this is a there is a balance here. There is a dance.

Even if he's dancing wildly. He -- he has to have some restraints when it comes to the U.S. economy.

HUNT: Scott Jennings, how do you see this? Because there are in fact here. Let's play a little bit of what we heard recently from the Goldman CEO, David Solomon. He was asked if it was a candid question. He didn't quite answer it in a in a straightforward way. But it's basically, hey, is the business community kind of wishing for the days of Joe Biden just because it came with a little bit more certainty? Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INTERVIEWER: You know, any CEOs that say they miss the Biden administration in terms of their approach to business?

DAVID SOLOMON, CEO, GOLDMAN SACHS: I think, Joe, what I'm hearing from CEOs, from -- from clients that I'm talking to is they want to understand, they want to have more certainty with respect to what the policy is going to look like. This level of uncertainty is not good. It's not healthy, and its affecting investment spending and planning. And that will have an effect on growth in the economy, and we will see that, you know, in my opinion, relatively quickly, if we can't get to a higher level of certainty around this trade policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Is that a message you think the White House should take on board more aggressively?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, of course, but it sounds to me like they are. I mean, listen to what the administration said today. They've got all these trade agreements that are lining up right now. It sounds like India and Japan are on deck. It sounds like even the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent is talking about getting something done with China here. Separately from all the other allies that we're dealing with.

So it feels like the administration is moving towards a situation where they're going to be able to argue that the president's strong posture on tariffs brought people to the table, created more fair trade agreements, and put the American worker in a better position.

That's my hope. I think if that's where they go, the markets will respond to that. And then hopefully, the president will get the second half of his economic package, which has got to come from the Congress, who still needs to make the tax cuts permanent, do the energy changes and so on and so forth.

HUNT: Lulu Garcia-Navarro, how do you see this big picture? Because again, one of the things, first of all, one of the things that prompted them to reverse course on some of these tariffs were the bond markets, right? Treasury yields, which again, for, you know, obviously these are terms that people don't necessarily throw around every day. But it's the United States dollar being the reserve currency for the world. It's being the safest place for people to park money.

And now questions about whether or not that's going to continue to be the case.

[16:10:02]

How big of a risk do you think that is going forward?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think it's a really big risk. I mean, you're seeing the gold markets. You know, gold is obviously something that people put their money in when they're concerned about volatility. And so, at this point, what you're hearing from the business community, what you're seeing from the international community, all the signals are the same, which is like what are you up to and what does it mean?

I think the administration is trying to calm the waters. This hasn't been good for them. I agree with Scott. I also think, though we don't know what these trade agreements are going to look like, are these trade agreements that are actually going to have tangible benefits for American workers and for the U.S. economy as they as they -- as they promised? Or are these trade agreements in name only, where they're just sort of rearranging the decks?

We really have no transparency into what is actually taking place here. And so, amidst all of this, people in small businesses, people in medium sized businesses and people in large businesses are trying to figure out how they can actually, you know, meet payroll. Go ahead and order things from outside of this country, try and hire.

This is all a lot of uncertainty. And what I am seeing and hearing is people are sort of pulling back and adopting a wait and see attitude, which is not good for the economy.

PALMERI: Yeah. I was just going to say like, well, President Trump repealed NAFTA, right? He created his own U.S., U.S. DMA. I'm sorry -- sorry if I said that wrong. But the new trade deal with Mexico and Canada.

And now he's repealing it again, which makes me think that a lot of this is just talk and show, because why would he be repealing, you know, a trade deal that he already put in place? So, is he just doing something quickly for show? Is this just like a, you know, like you said, rearranging the decks, but it's -- there's really not much substance.

HUNT: Well, I mean, I think I think we do know that he obviously has been committed to the substance of tariffs throughout -- throughout much of his public life.

But, Adrienne Elrod, I kind of want to take this to a kind of real life place because I feel like as time has gone on, right, "Liberation Day", quote unquote, was April 2nd. Right? We're now, it's what, April 22nd. So we've had 20 days of this.

One example and, you know, this is going to be suburban, you know, metropolitan area mom life talking, but there's a woman who has a small business who sells, she sells strollers and baby gear. Right. She usually closes on Easter Sunday. UPPAbaby, which is a big, you know, upscale baby brand, has announced they're going to dramatically raise their prices in May, though what they have in stock is starting to sell out.

So, she said to people, she's like, I'll stay open if you want to come, you know, get your stroller now because the prices are going to go up two, $300. I say that just to underscore that people who are actually having to make decisions in the economy are -- it is starting to affect people in a way that, you know, obviously, we all pay very close attention to politics, ups and downs, the back and forth. But for Republicans, this is something that, like main street, is very acutely aware of.

ADRIENNE ELROD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah, absolutely, Kasie. And look, that transcends politics. It doesn't matter if you are a Democrat or a Republican. Everyone, especially middle class Americans, but even upper middle class Americans and the upper -- upper 1 percent are going to feel the impact of this.

To your point, strollers going up $200 or $300. We're not talking about inflation where maybe something went up, you know, 10 or 20 bucks. Egg prices may be going up $4 more a carton. These are actually real-life goods that people use in their everyday lives that are going up.

Also, Kasie, I want to make a point of somebody who's -- I worked on a number of campaigns and worked in the administration, couple of administrations. When you are actually making major revolutionary changes like Trump says he's trying to do on the economy, you sit down with the CEOs of the of the major funds, you sit down with David Solomon, you sit down with, you know, BlackRock, Blackstone, some of the major CEOs in this country. And you explain to them what their rationale is.

You make sure that you have surrogates out there who are advocating for your policies. One of the reasons why the markets are so chaotic right now is because the top people in the business who understand the way markets work cannot figure out what Trump is doing. Theres never been an explanation. They just keep going out there and saying, trust us, trust us.

That is one of the reasons why there is so much instability. So, in fact, Scott, if there actually is a rationale and a plan here, why are they not explaining it to the very people who helped drive the markets?

JENNINGS: I am not sure that the White House would agree with you that the best surrogates for the president's economic plans would be major Wall Street CEOs --

ELROD: Well, they're the ones --

JENNINGS: -- hedge fund CEOs.

ELROD: They're the ones who the markets listen to his. And that's why the markets are so volatile.

JENNINGS: His entire campaign, his entire reason for being in politics, at least economically, has been I'm fighting for the American working class, not for Wall Street.

ELROD: Well, the American working class is also struggling trying to pay things right now.

JENNINGS: So as a communications person, I mean, surely you would know that somebody who's out here fighting for the working class wouldn't send CEOs from Wall Street out to explain to working class Americans like, don't worry, it's all going to be okay, that's --

(CROSSTALK)

ELROD: OK, best talk to small business owners in Kasie's neighborhood who are literally driving up the cost of strollers. They're about to. JENNINGS: On Liberation Day, you saw what was in the crowd. It was a bunch of people in hard hats. Thats who the policy is for. And I think today they're still putting their trust in Donald Trump.

[16:15:00]

You know, we'll see over time.

(CROSSTALK)

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think -- I think that's right, though. I think Donald Trump, we've seen this over and over again, has a lot of leeway. You know, there was some reporting in "The New York Times" where they went and talked to Republican voters. They -- they asked them, hey, you know, are you feeling the hit? They're like, we're feeling the hit. How are you responding? And they're saying, we're willing to give him some time. We've read "The Art of the Deal".

JENNINGS: Yeah.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: He really has a huge legacy in this country that people identify with, especially his base. And so, they are willing to give him time.

Now, are we -- how much time are they willing to give him? How much money are they willing to spend? That is a bigger question. And, you know, as they're seeing prices go up, I think that is going to be where the rubber hits the road.

JENNINGS: I agree with Lulu. I mean, there will be some leash, how long that leash is, we don't know yet. I don't know what the stroller market looks like back home in Kentucky, but that sounds like a lot for a stroller to me.

HUNT: I definitely buy cheaper stroller, UPPAbaby.

But let's be real, a lot of stroller are made in China, right? And even the cheaper strollers that you know were actually affordable for people before are going to become less affordable.

JENNINGS: But I think the point about his supporters, his base giving him enough time to see this through is absolutely true. And I'm just -- they do not --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't know if enough time, I don't know if enough time, some time.

JENNINGS: They don't want to hear -- they don't want to hear from Wall Street about how they're happy. They want to hear from the president about how they're going to put Wall Street in its place, to the benefit of the working class in this country. That was the dynamics in the election. And I mean, if the Democrats want to be the party of Wall Street, go ahead. Thats not who they want to be. Right?

ELROD: Okay. You're missing my point here, Scott.

JENNINGS: You said to send the Wall Street CEOs to talk to the working class.

ELROD: My point is you're not reassuring the people who run these major funds. That is one of the reasons why the market is so volatile and that is affecting the American people.

HUNT: That is why Scott Bessent has become such a key message for the White House on this, which I think you were on here saying was going to be important a couple of weeks ago.

All right. Coming up next here, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth finds a friendly forum for his attempts to deflect blame for chaos at the Pentagon amid his second Signal chat controversy.

Plus, Catholic cardinals converging on the Vatican as they prepare to lay Pope Francis to rest and select his successor. We'll have new details about plans for Francis's funeral, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:39]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: Do you think there's a lot of people that don't want you there? And there's some type of deep, deep state forces that want to make sure you don't stay there.

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: They've come after me from day one, just like they've come after President Trump. I mean, I've gotten a fraction of what President Trump got in that first term. What he's endured is superhuman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: An animated Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth denying at this old -- old -- old home this morning that he shared classified information in a second Signal group shot, and threatening prosecution of fired offices who he says leaked information to the press.

Hegseth's comments coming after three ousted Hegseth aides denied any wrongdoing with one describing the Department of Defense as, quote, consumed by chaos. The White House, however, continuing to stand by Hegseth today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There's a lot of people in the city who project monumental change and I think, frankly, that's why we've seen a smear campaign against the secretary of defense. Let me reiterate, the president stands strongly behind Secretary Hegseth in the change that he is bringing to the Pentagon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. So, Scott Jennings, let's just recap here, because the defense that were getting from Pete Hegseth is that, you know, these people are out to get me. They've been here forever. We can put up the people who were fired. Chief among them is Dan Caldwell, senior adviser to the defense secretary.

Now, this is someone who came in -- who used to work with Pete Hegseth, the Concerned Veterans for America. Not someone who was in the building for forever. He -- so that's Caldwell right there on the screen.

Now, he went and talked to Tucker Carlson to defend himself. And I want to play that for you because, again, this is -- let's just say he didn't go to those, you know, those legacy media, mainstream media outlets that that the president and MAGA world say that they don't trust to do this.

So, let's watch that and we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, TV HOST: Did you leak classified information against the wishes of your superiors to media outlets?

DAN CALDWELL, SENIOR ADVISER TO THE DEFENSE SECRETARY: Absolutely not. If I actually did some of the things that that anonymous people on the Internet and in the Pentagon are saying I did, I'd be in handcuffs.

HEGSETH: So once a leaker, always a leaker, often a leaker. And so, we looked for leakers because we take it very seriously and we will do the investigation. And if those people are exonerated. Fantastic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: This all taking place as John Ullyot, who was the longtime who -- who was a -- is a longtime Trump supporter. He supported Trump since 2016. Now at the Pentagon also says that Hegseth's department is in total chaos.

Why is the president standing by him the way that he is?

JENNINGS: Well, I think a few things. Number one I think he likes Pete Hegseth. I mean, he picked him for this job. It was a nontraditional pick.

He likes his attitude. He likes the way he conducts himself on television. And he likes his sort of pluck when it comes to discussions about reforming the Pentagon. That's number one.

Number two, I think they spent a huge amount of political capital to get him confirmed in the first place. We haven't even been in office for 100 days yet. I think it would be quite unusual for the president to spend that kind of capital and then throw somebody overboard over, you know, some staffing disagreements and a scandal that they believe is a tempest in a teapot.

[16:25:02]

So that's number two. And number three, I think the president thinks it's actually going

well. He has a different opinion. The attacks on the Houthis are going well. Being executed with precision. Recruitment is up in the military. I think the White House believes that morale among rank-and- file troops is up in the military.

So, they actually look to other metrics to see whether Hegseth is doing well. And in their mind, those things are going quite well. So, I actually think they have a case to make here about why they should leave him in the job.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that that is the case that the administration is making. I also think that for President Trump, they don't like the way that this came out, right? Anything that comes out in the mainstream media, particularly "The New York Times" or other, institutional media, they have this reaction that they say its fake news.

The broader thing into which this sits is that, you know, the defense that some people have been making, that he's learning on the job, that, you know, somehow these signal chat leaks are not that serious. This is the most powerful military in the world, and he is the most powerful person at the most powerful military. And so, a lot of people are deeply concerned about the kinds of actions that he's taking in terms of how he's leading the department.

These are all people who are loyalists of Donald Trump and are Republicans. These are not the deep state, quote, unquote. These are not careerists at the Pentagon. And so, if he can't manage his own team, so the question goes, then what is he doing to manage something that is the biggest department and the biggest amount of money that goes to --

HUNT: And, Tara, "The New York Times" did some more reporting in the wake of the John Ullyot. You know, everything is in chaos --

PALMERI: Right.

HUNT: -- op-ed to try to figure out exactly what that means. And they report this this afternoon, quote, the discord according to current and former defense officials, includes screaming matches in his inner office among aides, a growing distrust of the thousands of military and civilian personnel who staffed the building, and bureaucratic logjams that have slowed down progress on some of President Trump's key priorities.

And they describe one -- excuse me -- where there's you know, something sitting on the secretary of defenses desk, he just needs a signature. The White House keeps calling and saying, is this done? Is this done? Is this done? And no one has gotten his signature on the thing.

PALMERI: Okay, this seems to be a reoccurring issue across the administration, whether its HHS, Health and Human Services where they have to literally set up a parallel press operation because they couldn't respond to journalists who were making inquiries about help. And now you're hearing that the Defense Department, the secretary of

defense can't actually execute the most basic thing as signing a document on his desk. I mean, this is what happens when you make a Fox News host or, you know, journalist, a secretary in your government.

And also, if you actually looked into those two nonprofits that he was running and the way that he ran them into disrepair, he didn't have the resume that got him ready for this role. I don't know why everyone is so shocked that Pete Hegseth is not a great manager.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Are people shocked?

PALMERI: Well, I mean, the way that the right is pushing back on this and it's like these are lies, which, by the way, are all coming from conservatives, including John Ullyot, who you said is a Republican. And these men that that are now speaking out, talking to Tucker, they're all red blooded MAGA conservatives and they are coming out of fear. And they're whistleblowers now, like it's --

ELROD: Yeah, I mean, first of all, yes, I mean, this is one of the most highly, highly coveted cabinet positions in the United States government. So, the fact that Donald Trump went with somebody who was a fox news host, who. Yeah, sure, you can like, you know, say on background or reporters, maybe he's not ready. Maybe he was -- he's still learning on the job.

You were supposed to walk into these jobs, especially the DOD secretary on day one, knowing exactly what to do, knowing exactly how to be a strong leader. So, we're seeing chaos across the board, you know, Signalgate number two. I don't know why he had to share with his baby brother and his wife, you know, these classified plans, putting our -- our American men and women, women and military in danger.

But it's very disturbing. And I guess we'll see how long Trump will stick with them.

HUNT: I mean, if he's sticking with him now, what's your prediction, Scott? All the way through.

JENNINGS: All the way. Well, I don't know -- I wouldn't say that for any cabinet member, people leave for all kinds of reasons. But for right now, in the middle of this Signal gate and all this -- I mean, Trump's made it pretty clear Hegseth is not going anywhere, and I don't anticipate it anytime soon.

HUNT: All right. Still ahead here, more reaction to Pete Hegseth's defiance and whether he'll last. As we were just discussing at the Pentagon when former Trump national security advisor John Bolton joins us live.

Plus, all the new details about the funeral for Pope Francis now set for Saturday. The Vatican revealing the pontiff's final words before his death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:34:12]

HUNT: All right. You're looking now live at pictures of St. Peter's Square where Catholics continue to visit and pay their respects to Pope Francis. Right now, his body lying in an open casket in his Santa Marta residence at the Vatican. And we have learned that the Vatican will hold his funeral on Saturday.

CNN's Anderson Cooper and Clarissa Ward are both live for us from St. Peter's Square in Rome.

Clarissa, let me start with you, just in terms of what the funeral plans are for the pope.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Kasie, we're starting to get a better feel for what the funeral will look like. The funeral will actually be held right behind me in the square of St. Peter's. And there will be thousands of mourners who will pour in.

[16:35:03]

Then the casket of Pope Francis, after the eucharist will be brought into the Basilica of St. Peter's, where it will remain for the rest of the service. And then, once the service is finished, the casket will be taken to Santa Maria Maggiore, which is the beautiful basilica where the pope has elected to be buried very simply in the earth, with just a simple tombstone that will say nothing more than the word Franciscus. Of course, his name in Latin.

We do expect a huge amount, of course, of foreign dignitaries from world leaders, religious leaders. President Trump will be coming. President Zelenskyy will be coming. President Putin will not be coming. A number of European leaders all clamoring to attend an event that promises to be very historic, Kasie.

HUNT: Historic indeed.

And, Anderson, we've learned a little bit more about the popes last moment. Last moments, moving final words apparently spoken to his nurse. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "AC360": Yeah, yeah. Vatican media has just been reporting this. This took place on Sunday. As you as you know, Easter Sunday was very important for Pope Francis to appear on the balcony here at St. Peter's Basilica. He was able to do that.

A nurse that has been by his side for years was with him as well at the time. This is a nurse who had been by his side all during the weeks that he was in the hospital, helping him to recover. The pope wanted to give a surprise to the -- some 50,000 people who were in St. Peter's Square to see the pontiff on Sunday, in that final appearance.

And he asked the nurse if he thought he could make it down into the square. The nurse brought him into the popemobile, and the pontiff was able to drive around, giving those who assembled the last chance to actually see him in the popemobile, as he drove around. And afterward, according to Vatican media, he thanked the nurse, saying, thank you for bringing me back to the square. That would be the last time that he actually appeared here in the square.

So, we're getting more details about the final moments of Pope Francis's life, and we anticipate to hear more in the coming days.

HUNT: Really remarkable.

And, Clarissa, of course, cardinals from all around the world convening. They're going to meet tomorrow in Rome. What do we know about the upcoming pope selection process?

WARD: Well, I think what's really interesting, Kasie, and the question that so many people here are asking is whether this new pope will continue along the path that Pope Francis had really started to map out. And if you look at the math, as it were, Pope Francis actually put in place about 4/5 of the cardinals who will be eligible to vote.

You, our viewers, may already be aware, but only cardinals under the age of 80 are able to vote. And he put in cardinals from countries that never even had cardinals before, Mongolia, Laos, Guinea. So, the complexion of the cardinals who will be choosing this next pope is very different and less traditional, shall we say, than in previous conclaves that we've seen over the years.

Theres a lot of speculation about who might emerge as the next pope. There are favorites from the Philippines, from the U.S., from Canada, from Italy, from the Democratic Republic of Congo as well.

But as you are probably aware, this is a process, millennia in the making, that is shrouded in secrecy. And there's a lot of politicking that goes on behind closed doors throughout the process. And so really, I think at this stage, it's still anyone's guess as to who the new pontiff will be -- Kasie.

HUNT: Indeed.

And, Anderson, as we wrap up here, just you tell us a little bit about what it's like to be there, where you are, what you've heard from mourners, from visitors, and how it feels to be in St. Peter's Square right now.

COOPER: Yeah, it's always an extraordinary experience to be here. I was here in 2005 with John Paul, the II. With -- in the days after his death and the conclave for that. We've been seeing throughout the day more and more people coming up.

A lot of the people earlier today who were here had been in Rome, had been visiting Vatican City in tour groups. So, they had been here. They had made these -- these plans before the pope died. I think it's starting tomorrow.

We're going to see a lot more people who have intentionally come here to take part to, to pay their respects to the pontiff, as they're going to be able to starting tomorrow and for three days as he lies in state here.

[16:40:06] But it's very emotional for a lot of people who are here, and for those coming.

HUNT: All right, Clarissa Ward and Anderson Cooper, very grateful to have both of you on the show today. Thank you so much.

And coming up next here, Donald Trump's former national security advisor, John Bolton, is going to be here, live in THE ARENA to dig into Pete Hegseth's second Signal controversy.

Plus, how the White House is responding to Harvard University's lawsuit against the administration.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: All right. More now on one of today's top stories. The fallout from that second Signal chat, in which Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth is said to have sent the details of a Yemen strike to family members, and also, of course, more broad chaos at the Pentagon.

[16:45:10]

Joining us now to discuss former Trump national security advisor and the former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton.

Mr. Ambassador, I'm very grateful to have you here today.

I think my question for you about the secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, is whether you think -- do you think what he has done is disqualifying for the position that he holds?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I think the second example of a Signal chat group and have no doubt that there are more out there to be found really shows a terrible lack of judgment communicating with the people in this group in particular who have absolutely no need to know about any upcoming U.S. military operation, leads me to wonder what he's doing on the job on a minute to minute, hour by hour basis that he's got time to knock out Signal messages to friends and family, which is what this group is.

I mean, I think Hegseth has sadly proved himself to be a lightweight, and I don't think he's long for the job. I think there's going to be a decent interval here so that the administration doesn't have to appear to be bowing to political pressure, but he's used up his -- his goodwill with the administration. He's supposed to be defending Trump, not Trump defending him. This -- this is wasted energy for the White House at this point.

HUNT: I was going to say, I mean, you've been on the receiving end of, of course, Donald Trump deciding, you know, one day that he wanted someone else in the job that you had held and, you know, a tweet went out at, you know, it looks like just a little bit before noon saying that he had asked for your resignation. You had given it to him.

What about that experience informs how you think about what might happen here with Pete Hegseth? Because we have seen Donald Trump go before cameras and defend Hegseth repeatedly.

BOLTON: Yeah. I had actually handed in my resignation letter about three hours before his tweet went out. My mistake was not preemptively tweeting myself, but leaving that aside, you know, Rex Tillerson was fired when he was in Egypt. Reince Priebus found he couldn't get a ride home from Andrews Air Force Base one day after coming back on Air Force One, when he was fired as chief of staff. This is Donald Trump, a real loyal, superior officer.

So, if I were Hegseth, I'd be thinking of what my next job would be. I'm not sure he will do that, but I don't see his tenure here lasting more than some months into the future. Someone suggested to me that you take the garbage out in August, and maybe that's when there are a lot of changes in the administration.

HUNT: Interesting way to think about it.

Big picture at the pentagon. I mean, obviously there's the Signal chat piece of it. It's important. But we've also had a top longtime Trump loyalist in John Ullyot who you may know. I mean, he's been part of the national security community for many years, writing in public, putting his name on an op-ed that there is chaos at the Pentagon.

Do you believe him, first of all? And what implications do you think that has for national security?

BOLTON: Well, I don't know, Ullyot, but I do know that it now looks like five people that Hegseth himself hired have all been fired or resigned. So, leave aside the chaos that's spreading in the rest of the department. He can't even manage his own personal office.

So, I think the morale effects across the building and across the force here have to be pretty negative. I think, the people in the Pentagon are pretty sophisticated. I think they can see Hegseth as a lightweight, and that has to fill them with concern given the threats to the United States around the world.

HUNT: Briefly, sir, I know Iran is of great interest to you, and Steve Witkoff is very close to president Trump has taken a lead on some of these things. There have been some reports about the Israelis wanting to strike Iran, the United States, instead, engaging in talks. Is that the right move?

BOLTON: No, I think look, I think negotiating with Iran about their nuclear program is a waste of oxygen. This is the opportune moment for Israel or Israel and the United States to solve a worldwide proliferation problem by taking out their nuclear program.

Iran's in desperate shape. They need relief from American sanctions. They need relief from the pounding that Israel has administered their terrorist proxies and Iran itself. They'd like nothing better than drawn out negotiations.

Witkoff seems to have convinced Trump that he can make a deal. Witkoff is another New York real estate developer. He knows nothing about nuclear weapons. He knows nothing about international proliferation or arms control.

[16:50:02]

He knows nothing about Iran. Really? What could go wrong?

HUNT: What could go wrong?

Ambassador John Bolton, thank you so much for being on the show today, sir. I hope you'll come back soon.

BOLTON: Thanks for having me.

HUNT: All right. Let's turn now to the story. The White House continuing to wage war against Harvard University. Their fight escalating to the courtroom.

According to a White House official, the Trump administration reached out to Harvard representatives three times to try to restart talks among the parties. But the official said the ivy league university wasn't interested in negotiating. And on Monday, Harvard filed its lawsuit.

White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt now says they'll be responding in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: The president has made it quite clear that it's Harvard who has put themselves in the position to lose their own funding by not obeying federal law. We will be responding to the lawsuit in court. And again, it's quite simple. If you want federal dollars, obey federal law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, Harvard is arguing that the administration is violating its constitutional rights.

Our panel is back here.

Lulu Garcia-Navarro, there's some reporting in your paper today about the back and forth over this. We at CNN have not matched that reporting. But you, of course, are free to discuss it. But basically, there seems to be considerable conversation around how we got to this point, whether or not this was the path that Harvard ultimately wanted to go down.

Now they're getting a lot of backup. There are 180 college presidents who signed a letter today. Speaking with one voice, we can put up on the screen some of just a selection of some of the logos, right? This is really across America now. None of these other schools have the kind of resources that Harvard does.

But clearly this is a really difficult moment for the university.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You know, the reporting that "The New York Times" has is that, really, Harvard has been caught in a very difficult position. First of all, trying to interpret what the administration wanted, then feeling backed into a corner.

Let's not also forget that the way that Harvard is governed, they've had a lot of pressure internally from big donors who are close to the administration. There was reporting that suggested that Harvard tried to reach out to former alums who are close to Donald Trump, including his son in law, who's married to Ivanka, to see if they could negotiate some kind of a meeting. And that didn't go anywhere.

So, lots of discussion about how exactly it got here. But what seems to have happened is that at every turn, both sides have dug in and now they find themselves in court.

PALMERI: I think it's interesting to see that Harvard is really standing its ground and digging in and serving as a model, because they can. They are one of the wealthiest universities in the country. It's not just a university that's, you know, hospitals. It's entire -- like it's bigger than Harvard.

And it's -- I think it's a model, too, for other universities that decide to dig in. And, and I think, you know, it made Columbia look weak for essentially bowing down right away. And perhaps it will stop the dominoes from falling from all the other institutions that are deciding to fall under Trump's pressure.

ELROD: Yeah. Look, I first of all, I'm glad to see more college -- colleges and universities stepping up. I wish that the ivies had come out pretty quickly, just as Tara mentioned, like seeing Columbia sort of cave and seeing Harvard really take a major stance is important because here's the bottom line, Kasie. I think it's less about, yes, Harvard can defend itself.

It's one of the wealthiest colleges in the country, as Tara just said. But it's the bigger picture. If he gets away with this, he can start going down the road with future universities. And it's also part of a bigger strategy that you see Donald Trump doing where anyone who disagrees with him, silencing "The Associated Press," you know, taking a strong stance against universities you know, trying to take away the C3 status of some of these environmental organizations that he's working on this week. I mean, this is a picture, a broader picture that he's trying to paint of. If you don't agree with me, I'm going to figure out a way to silence you. And that's the problem.

HUNT: Got 30 seconds.

JENNINGS: Yeah. I assume you all know what's been going on on these campuses. They are chasing the Jewish kids around the campuses. They are terrorizing them. They are violating their civil rights.

The administration believes they have violated their federally protected rights. This all goes back to the core issue. The Ivy League schools and a lot of universities did not stand up for Jewish students when they should have, and when they were warned by the U.S. Congress last year, they should have done it then. Now they're locked in these battles. Now, you all say these campuses should fight back against Trump. Who

are they fighting for? The people who are terrorizing the Jewish kids?

I hope that's not what you mean. I think Trump is standing up for these Jewish students in a good way, and I hope he prevails.

ELROD: This is irrelevant from that, Scott.

JENNINGS: It is not. This is the core issue.

HUNT: We obviously need to leave. More time for this conversation next time we have it. I'm sorry that we are out of time right now.

Coming up, something totally different that scientists say you've never seen before.

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HUNT: All right. Welcome back.

So, researchers say they've discovered a new color, one that no human has ever seen before. I'm sorry? What?

Scientists say -- okay, so this right, this shade is the closest to the newly discovered color. They call it Olo. Five of the study's participants, three of whom are authors of the study, had a laser beam flashed into one of their pupils to stimulate cells in the retina. And a blue green color like this is what they reportedly saw.

But researchers say that the true hue of Olo can only be seen using their experimental laser setup.

I guess I'll believe it when I see it, Jake Tapper.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, "THE LEAD": Well, I've been I've been saying that for a long time. That's my -- that's my life motto, Olo.

HUNT: Hey, you know.

TAPPER: Only live once.

HUNT: Oh, you do indeed. Have a great show.