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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Stocks Make Gains After Trump Shifts Tone On Trade And Powell; Sources: Pentagon Shakeup Going "Better Than We Ever Expected"; Now: Pope Francis Lying In State In St. Peter's Basilica. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired April 23, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: -- the way that humans often get drunk.
[16:00:03]
They add that this behavior suggests that one way that chimps form and strengthen social bonds is through the sharing of the fermented fruit.
BRIANNA KEILAR,CNN HOST: So, it's like a fruit spritz, right?
SANCHEZ: Yeah.
KEILAR: Sort of like a light spritz. And they just get a little bit of a buzz.
SANCHEZ: Yeah.
KEILAR: And then they tell each other
SANCHEZ: They brunch. They chit chat. They yap as they say. They have a good time.
KEILAR: Chimp brunch. Totally. Right?
SANCHEZ: Thanks so much for joining us.
KEILAR: THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: There's breaking news right here on CNN. Let's head into THE ARENA.
U.S. markets making gains at the closing bell, but down from investors' early exuberance after the president shifted his tone on China tariffs and on the Fed Chairman Jerome Powell.
Plus, more defiance from the Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth now claiming things are going better than expected at the Pentagon, even as his wife's constant presence there is under scrutiny. Sources tell CNN he is feeling paranoid.
And huge crowds lining up to pay their respects to Pope Francis. His body now lying in state. CNN is on the scene in Vatican City.
(MUSIC)
HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. Wonderful to have you with us on this Wednesday as we track wild swings in President Trump's trade and economic policies and their impact on volatile markets.
Moments ago, U.S. stocks closing in the green for a second day. But that big rally from this morning has mostly evaporated. The Dow ending up more than 400 points after surging for more than 1,000 points earlier today.
So, let's walk through what happened here. Investors were initially very enthusiastic, shall we say, after President Trump appeared to try to repair the self-inflicted damage on two fronts. There's his threat to fire the Fed chairman, and of course, his trade war with China. On the trade war front, the president suggested to reporters last night that he's prepared to reduce his unprecedented 145 percent tariffs on products from Beijing. He expressed optimism about a possible deal.
Here's what he said about it this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are going to have a fair deal with China. It's going to be fair.
REPORTER: Are you talking to them actively now?
TRUMP: Actively. Everything's active. Everybody wants to be a part of what we're doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And these remarks from the guy Wall Street sees as their would- be savior, the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, speaking to the International Monetary Fund this morning, hours after he told investors that he expected a de-escalation of trade tensions with China soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: There is an opportunity for a big deal here. If China is serious on less dependance on export-led manufacturing growth and a rebalancing toward a domestic economy. This is an incredible opportunity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So how wild is -- are these swings? Just one day after Trump said that the Fed Chairman Powell couldn't be fired fast enough. He said this in the Oval Office last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I have no intention of firing him. I would like to see him be a little more active in terms of his idea to lower interest rates. But no, I have no intention to fire him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Okay. So why is this all happening at once? After the president has dug in for weeks, insisting that the market will go up, the market will go down. Well, sources tell CNN that the president was warned against trying to oust Powell, with some of his top advisers fearing legal and financial turmoil. Fair.
But get this, we are also reporting today that a group of CEOs of the top American retailers, Walmart, Target, Home Depot and Lowes had a private meeting with Trump on Monday. They had plenty to say, but there was one warning that stuck out -- empty shelves, they said. Empty shelves in American stores, as soon as this summer because of Trump's actions.
Okay. So, the administration calmed the markets initially today, but since whiplash has become the norm and is a huge part of what's unsettling the economy, we saw it, of course, lose some of its momentum.
And late today, the White House press secretary perhaps contributed to that. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Let me be clear: there will be no unilateral reduction in tariffs against China. The president has made it clear China needs to make a deal with the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Lots of use of the word clear. Is it clear to anyone?
The treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, is also now warning that China negotiations are going to take time. He told reporters after his IMF remarks today that it could take 2 to 3 years to fully rebalance trade with China.
[16:05:01]
It's worth noting that the midterm elections are just over 18 months away.
Let's bring in CNN's Jeff Zeleny to get us started. He is live for us at the White House.
Jeff, I'd love to hear your reporting, because quite honestly, it all seems clear as mud.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, Kasie, one thing is clear. That's the president and the White House have gradually shifted their tone and posture on many things on the economic front. First of all, the idea of Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell not
being fired when the president said after the markets closed last evening in the Oval Office that he has no intention of firing him, he blamed it on the press. We, of course, have seen him say many times. He said, if I want him out, he'll be out as fast as -- as I say so. He posts on social media that he wanted him to be fired.
So, look, the reality is the president is responding to really the uncertainty in the markets by shifting some, at least of his language. But it is that meeting in the Oval Office on Monday that we learned about, and other reporters did as well, that really apparently caught the president's attention.
And I'm told that business leaders, the business roundtable and others have been reaching out to White House chief of staff Susie Wiles and other advisers here trying to get a meeting with the president, trying to convey to him in real terms the real fallout of some of this uncertainty, some of these tariff policies. And it was that empty shelves comment we are told, that really caught the president's attention. Of course, you can see why.
The whole idea that we would have an interruption in the supply chain, sort of like we all saw in the pandemic simply because of his policies, is something that would be difficult for the White House to endure. So, that is one of the reasons we are told that he changed his posture.
It's interesting, Kasie, virtually every day, the president is not scheduled to speak until after the markets closed. He did pop out of the White House a little bit earlier today to look at a place where he wants to put a new flagpole right here on the north lawn of the White House. And he talked a little bit.
But for someone who talks consistently, they've been keeping a close watch on him to speak after the markets. So, we'll hear from him in the next hour here. But something is going on and it's clear that they're changing their posture at least, or tone on the markets and the economy -- Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Jeff Zeleny for us at the White House -- Jeff, thanks very much for that.
All right. Our panel is here. CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams, the host of "The Chuck Toddcast", Chuck Todd, CNN political commentator Xochitl Hinojosa, and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Brad Todd.
Thank you all for being here. Really appreciate it.
Chuck Todd, it seems very clear to me that this is an enormous mess with repercussions beyond where even many people in the White House felt they risked real repercussions. They don't necessarily want to be seen as publicly walking it back. You could hear kind of the pugnaciousness there from the White House press secretary.
Or do you think Wall Street's going to buy that, hey, they actually are going to make some moves away from this. Does anybody feel like they can believe him anymore?
CHUCK TODD, HOST, THE CHUCK TODDCAST: I think until you see pen and paper, until you see trade deals happen with India and Japan, do you actually see these things happen? I think the markets are going to have a hard time taking words right to the bank on this front.
But this is the trap he's put himself in, right? He's got some long term goals. And in order to get to those long-term goals, there's going to be -- there's -- there's potentially short term political pain. But he can't handle the short-term political pain as we have found out, right? He keeps -- he's essentially trying to manage -- he's managing the economy right now with his news cycle brain, and he's trying to fix the news cycle.
Let's see if I can buy a day, buy a couple of days. Get this off the front page. Buy some time.
We all get this. A lot of people in their lives, you juggle things. Boy, this is something I don't want to deal with. Maybe I can push it off another week, right?
He is trying -- and this is the trap of doing of essentially because again, you know, the long term goal here is something that there is support for. But his path to do it is becoming less and less popular, and people are more and more. So, I think that's the trap he's in. He's today. He's worried about his political, the political side of things.
And -- and this is what's made, I think, decision making uncertain. Is he making a political statement today or is he making an attempt to redefine long term economic policy?
HUNT: How's he going to feel when he wakes up in the morning?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And I'd say even the way in which he's speaking about Jerome Powell is itself injecting a fair amount of uncertainty into the global economy. Just think about it. You know, global markets are stabilized based on the idea that the Fed is independent.
Even when President Trump says, look, I have no intention of firing Jerome Powell, but I think he sucks and he's terrible. And -- and he's been doing a horrible job and he's too slow, even that is the sort of uncertainty that Chuck was talking about. It's just -- he's playing to the news cycle and ultimately no one is comforted by the fact I think that he has said that he's not, in fact, firing the Fed --
[16:10:02]
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But he's, in fact, doing what Joe Biden did with Jerome Powell in March of last year, where he tried to coax a rate cut out of him. It's just the difference between Bobby Knight throwing a chair across the court and Jim Boeheim saying, golly gee, Mr. Ref, you know?
(CROSSTALK) C. TODD: By the way, they're both bad ideas.
WILLIAMS: They're all bad --
C. TODD: Messing with the Fed is a bad idea.
B. TODD: But everybody works the ref. Every president works the ref.
WILLIAMS: Sure, it's different -- I would just say, one, Joe Biden is not president anymore. And two, we've been seeing three weeks of extreme volatility in global markets, not even just the U.S. stock markets.
And so, it's a fair point. Everybody works the refs. But we have a problem now that is only getting worse the more the president is --
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's also -- I think it's also one thing to be angry at the Fed chair, you have many presidents that are -- there are parts of the federal government that are independent, that they are very present, are very frustrated by, because they think that they need to control everything.
Donald Trump is one of them. Donald Trump thinks that he should be able to control everyone -- the FBI, the attorney general, the fed chair. I think that's what's happening with him right now. And the harsh reality for him in the next few weeks is that this trade war with China, right now, it is in the news, it is in the markets. But soon enough, and I think what the real retailers are telling him is the American people are going to feel it and we are not there yet.
And I think that it's coming. And that is a harsh reality for Donald Trump, because once the American people feel costs go up and see that the shelves are empty, that is a huge political problem for him.
B. TODD: What's any athlete do when they have a problem? You do the thing that you do best. And what Donald Trump does best is make deals. And as Chuck says, he's three deals away from a big market rally. I mean, as soon as these things start going, they'll go by dominoes. Every trading partner we have has higher barriers than they do, they all need a deal.
HUNT: Well, and so, here's the thing about that, Brad. I mean, look, I take your point, art of the deal. People are willing to buy that about Donald Trump. Certainly, people who believe in him.
But there are big questions. I mean, it was Donald Trump who struck a new version of NAFTA in the USMCA with Mexico and Canada. And look what he's done to that.
I want to play -- this is the Citadel CEO and a longtime Republican donor, Ken Griffin. And he was talking about the sort of the underpinnings of our global financial system, something that is based and rooted here in America, and what the Trump administration is actually risking with their economic policy.
Watch this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNETH GRIFFIN, CITADEL FOUNDER & CEO: The financial markets -- no brand compared to the brand of the U.S. treasuries. U.S. treasury market, the strength of the U.S. dollar and the strength the creditworthiness of U.S. treasuries. No brand came close.
We put that brand at risk. The president and the secretary of treasury and the secretary of commerce need to be very thoughtful that when you have a brand, you need to behave in a way that respects that brand, that strengthens that brand, because when you tarnish that brand, it can be a lifetime to repair the damage that has been done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Ken Griffin has incredible credibility on this. And U.S. senators, particularly Republicans, are really going to listen to him. And I think they're going to pay attention to whether foreign investors are staying in U.S. treasuries. And are they doubling down on U.S. treasuries or are they getting cold feet?
I think you're going to see that. And I think the president will be keen to that. But it starts with making deals. I mean, he's already -- he chose this strategy. He -- he's now on the hook to make deals.
WILLIAMS: The one challenge with the deals. And -- and I think you're right. The presidents core competency is cutting deals. I think.
HUNT: He certainly wants you to believe that.
WILLIAMS: He wants you to believe that.
Here's what China says right now. This is from the spokesman for the Chinese foreign ministry. Engage in dialogue with China on the basis of equality, respect and mutual benefit. He goes on and says, talking about reaching an agreement with China while constantly pressuring China to the maximum is not the correct way to deal with China.
B. TODD: I think they're the last deal.
WILLIAMS: Sorry?
B. TODD: They're the last deal.
WILLIAMS: My point is, not all countries or deals are created equal.
B. TODD: Right.
WILLIAMS: This is not Vietnam or Sri Lanka. China is the one company -- the one country that has that kind of power to make a statement.
C. TODD: Well, they're forcing -- they've already got him negotiating with himself, right?
WILLIAMS: Yes. C. TODD: Donald Trump's already violating one of his own rules. Right. Don't negotiate with yourself. And he's already negotiating with himself because he was trying to please the markets.
But I'll tell you this, the empty shelves -- I mean one thing --
HUNT: That's what I wanted to --
C. TODD: -- people do, this is how you can actually move Donald Trump, right? Everybody's trying to figure out how do you convince them, he understands visuals and he does get that. And so, you know, the -- here's the real trap he's in. I don't -- if he's afraid of empty shelves, he's not going to be able to stand his ground and wait for China to come to the table.
HUNT: Yeah.
C. TODD: Right? So he's in this box where he does have to negotiate with themselves because he's worried about the short-term pain. This short-term visual. You could just see you guys making these ads.
HINOJOSA: Yes, absolutely.
C. TODD: Look at Donald Trump. You know, you thought it was bad under Joe Biden's economy.
HUNT: I mean, absolutely. We all have memories of empty shelves.
C. TODD: You know, right, at least a Joe Bidens economy, the product was there, may have been unaffordable, but it was on the shelf. Now, it's unaffordable and not on the shelf.
[16:15:01]
B. TODD: The answer is putting points on the board, though. That's what he has.
C. TODD: And that's and he hasn't --
B. TODD: And there are some easy ones out there.
C. TODD: And this is where, you know, you look at this pew poll today. And what's interesting about it is they've lost faith in Donald Trump's ability to do the job in many of these cases. But they want they actually still are favorable to the goals he has.
Like they want him what he campaigned on. They want him to succeed at. And they're sitting there going, this guy doesn't know how to execute a strategy to get to the goal he set. And that's his big problem.
HUNT: And here's the potential rating, by the way, that Chuck is talking about.
C. TODD: This is to me the biggest problem he faces is this idea that, hey, he's got good ideas. He just doesn't know how to execute. B. TODD: Donald Trump's base is in places that have been really
affected negatively by trade deals. Those people know that we have to reset it. Those people I grew up in a place like that. They're going to give him rope because they've felt the pain.
C. TODD: But what happens when Tennessee's economy, which has benefited from a globalized economy?
B. TODD: So, it's where you live, you know. Are you in Nashville or are you in Rowan County?
C. TODD: But this is where it's not a zero sum, right? Yes. Ohio and Iowa and Michigan were hurt. Tennessee, South Carolina and Alabama gained. So yes, he's got one constituency that he's trying to appease over here, but he's actually going to undermine the solid Sunbelt South that --
B. TODD: You got to give people credit though, they want to take on China. And they realize it's a national priority.
HUNT: But if they're facing -- if they go to home depot because they need to, you know, replace the light in their -- in their kitchen or, you know, buy some lumber off the shelves. That's I guess -- that's probably a Canadian or possibly Canadian. But if they can't find that stuff -- I mean, aren't they going to punish the people in power for that?
B. TODD: Well, it depends if deals are happening with other countries. If he's cutting deals with the EU and making progress, the place, they're going to blame China. China is the bad actor. Let's keep the focus where it is.
HINOJOSA: I'm not sure they're going to blame China. I think that we saw in the last election, Joe Biden lost for a lot of reasons that we're not going to argue about here. One of the --
B. TODD: Let's do.
HINOJOSA: One of the reasons is because the economy was doing well. And he, you know, they felt like costs were too high. And Donald Trump promised that costs would come down.
The trajectory of this is that if there is not a deal anytime soon, and if there is -- if we continue down this road, we are getting closer and closer to the midterm elections, where folks in red states and the combination of that and with empty shelves and with people hurting, is going to be really problematic for Republicans.
Trust me, as a Democrat, I -- we want everything. And then we lost it all. And I totally get that.
And that's my warning to Republicans is, listen, they elected you for a reason. Now bring down the cost.
B. TODD: I consider myself warned, but -- but 18 months is like 25 dog years in Donald Trump time like we have a long -- C. TODD: Yeah, the American voter has a lot of patience on the
economy. Good luck with that.
HINOJOSA: Exactly.
HUNT: Oh, boy.
All right. We got a lot more to get to today. Coming up next, we've got new reporting on Pete Hegseth state of mind as he puts a positive public face on the fallout over his second Signal group chat and the ongoing turmoil at the pentagon.
Plus, we're live in Vatican City as mourners say farewell to Pope Francis.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:22:27]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": Our secretary of defense is defenseless. But it's not his fault. The ones who get the blame for this are the leakers.
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Those very same people keep leaking. There were a series of serious leaks. And so, we looked for leakers. The leakers know who they are. When we had leaks, leak investigation, leak investigation, leaking, leak, leaking, leaker leaking, leaks, leaking, leaks, leaking, leaking leakers.
Once a leaker, always a leaker. Leaking is not okay. I don't have time for leakers.
KIMMEL: You don't have -- you don't have time for leakers. You are the leaker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So based on that, it should come as no surprise. One source is telling CNN that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is in, quote, full paranoia back against the wall mode.
So, let's take a little month long walk down memory lane. Signalgate kicked off March 24th. There were fired officials, a damning op-ed from the former Pentagon spokesperson, John Ullyot. Revelations of a second Signal group chat where Hegseth shared military plans with his wife, brother and lawyer, and new CNN reporting today on his wife's prominent role at the Pentagon.
Hegseth says everything's going great.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: It's a lot of change very quickly. Now, as you may have noticed, the media likes to call it chaos. We call it overdue.
How are the men and women responding to this, to this call? Well, I can tell you personally, it's going better than we could have ever expected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Just -- just to be clear, it was John Ullyot, the OG Trump supporter back in 2016 who was until recently working for Pete Hegseth, who says that there's chaos at the Pentagon. Not just the media.
But anyway, in a sign that all may not be well for Hegseth in Trump world, CNN is reporting the president has been soliciting feedback from the people around him about Hegseth. That's according to two people familiar with the conversations.
Still, the vice president said this today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have 100 percent confidence in the secretary. I know the president does. And really, the entire team does.
It's one of the most bizarre things about the Hegseth nomination. From the very beginning, the media seemed to want to take it, and when they failed and it got confirmed, they decided they wanted to keep on that effort to destroy Pete Hegseth as a man, as the secretary of defense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Chuck Todd, is there ever a more straightforward sign in Trump world that you are on your way out the door, than the president suddenly starting to ask the people around him about you?
C. TODD: By the way, for some of us in the press who have had a -- on again/off again relationship with the president, I've been on the receiving end of that myself.
[16:25:03]
What do you think of so and so? I'm thinking about getting ready -- you're just like, really? You know, it's the strangest thing when he does because he'll reach out to anybody on this stuff, right? Like, not just, you know, supporters. He -- because he wants to know what press thinks wants to know what he is one of those.
The point is that's a very bad sign for Hegseth because to also translate what J.D. Vance wants to say, the media can't make up a story without sources. What's really the issue for Pete Hegseth is there are a lot of Republicans who never thought he was qualified, aired their dirty laundry. A lot of Republicans and a lot of people in the Pentagon who are just military folks who do not believe he knows what he's doing, airing their dirty laundry, and then have some people who even go on the record and write op-eds. And I have to say, there's a lot of shocking things. That was one of
the more shocking. Wow. Like within 48 hours of leaving the pentagon, you decided. And can you imagine politico? Really? You want to do this on the record?
Okay. You know, here you go. We'll give you a byline and everything.
This has all the hallmarks of Trump doesn't want to give a scalp to the media. Pardon me. I know some people don't -- but that word. So, I apologize for using that but doesn't want to, quote, give the media a win. So, it's not going to happen probably within the next 96 hours. But you know, I'd be on a month to month lease if I worked for him right now.
HUNT: Brad Todd, you obviously are very familiar. You spend a lot of time talking to Republican senators. You followed his confirmation process. Chuck's correct. There were a lot of reservations behind the scenes. Ultimately, everybody kind of got it together and got on board.
How long do you think Hegseth --
B. TODD: I predicted he could get confirmed the first day when he was under fire the first day. I think that if Donald Trump fires Pete Hegseth right now, the Democrats and the media will own his successor. And if he doesn't get fired right now, Donald Trump owns the secretary of defense. And I think that means something to Donald Trump.
If I were Pete Hegseth, I'd stay on the road. He was at the war college in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, today. I would stay on the road talking to majors and captains and colonels, the people who are his.
C. TODD: Go visit bases.
B. TODD: Go visit bases. Keep doing the job out in public. Keep doing a good job on television. And I think that's the path -- that's the path forward for him.
He -- he needs to have fights with the media. That's good for him with Donald Trump.
HINOJOSA: The worst part about this is we're talking about the politics around all of this. The reality is, is that if they're not going to fire Hegseth, who's going to get fired for sharing classified information ever in this administration?
We had Petraeus share classified information with his lover. He pled guilty. We had an army reservist sent information out, classified information to ten of his buddies. He got 15 years in prison. This man shares classified information with his wife and his brother.
HUNT: Actually, yeah.
HINOJOSA: Has not denied it. It's only said it's a leaker, that is -- has called out a leaker. But the reality is, is that just shows that it's true. He's never said that it is false. He has never proven otherwise. And that is just of grave concern.
C. TODD: Is this a technicality that he's arguing, by the way? Which is -- because he's the secretary of defense and he has some declassification power. Is this one of those things that once I put it in the Signal chat, I've declassified?
WILLIAMS: Absolutely not. One, any briefing he would have gotten at the time he came into the job would have made clear you can't be using Signal for any such --
C. TODD: You're assuming they got those briefings. They did not do those briefings.
WILLIAMS: I would hope they --
HINOJOSA: I actually agree with you. They did not because they also didn't get those briefings.
WILLIAMS: So, okay, problem, strike one. Number two, no, it's the reckless sharing of information that he knows to be sensitive. So, of course, it's wrong.
What I find remarkable about this debate, that every single person on this panel, including our friend Brad, is touching on here, is that no one seems to be defending his competence or fitness for the job. All of the questions about Pete Hegseth are, well, it would be a pain in the ass to put a new one in or will the media or Democrats would win if we put a new one.
No -- no one is really jumping to this.
B. TODD: No, I want to -- I want to correct that a little bit. The -- his job is to be disruptive and it's to transform the Pentagon and wipe the Obama imprint off of it. And that was always going to be a job that was still.
HUNT: But, Brad, some of the reporting around this, I get your -- I take your point that that some of this is what he promised he was going to go in there and do. But the times was reporting yesterday that the Trump White House kept calling the Pentagon because there was something Trump wanted done sitting on Hegseth's desk that needed his signature and the incompetence in his office was so high that nobody could get him to put pen to paper and sign the thing.
WILLIAMS: He doesn't have a chief of staff. The Penta -- at least I believe as of right now, the Pentagon literally does not have someone running the office of the secretary of defense. That is just basic malpractice for running not --
HUNT: It just seems like it's going beyond the disruption that you're talking about.
B. TODD: Well, he needs to disrupt competently, that's for sure. And it doesn't matter if he irritates Democrats and if he irritates the media, he obviously does have to do with the White House wants. Every cabinet secretary is going to figure that out. There are no independent cabinet secretaries in this administration.
C. TODD: But let's go back to something you sort of implied, which is once Donald Trump concludes that somebody is no longer helpful to him, they're out.
[16:30:05]
And I think we're getting awfully close to his pain threshold.
HUNT: May not be there yet, but we are potentially on the way.
All right. Up next, we're going to change gears. Well take you live to St. Peter's Square. Thousands of people have been lining up for hours just for a glimpse of the late Pope Francis.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: All right. Welcome back.
You are looking at live pictures from St. Peter's Basilica. Mourners have been lining up for hours just to spend a few seconds saying goodbye to Pope Francis. His body will lie in state until his funeral on Saturday.
CNN's Anderson Cooper and Clarissa Ward are joining us live from St. Peter's Square in Rome.
[16:35:05]
Anderson, first to you, tell us a little bit about what you've been seeing throughout the day as people have lined up to pay their respects.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "AC360": Yeah. It's extraordinary being here. It's -- this is, I think, the third time I have been here after the death of a pope or a former pope. And there's this communal feeling, and you see it. I mean, there's, you know, it's 10:00 something at night. People have been lined up for hours. The line right now. I just talked to a lady from New Jersey. She expects to be in this line for another four hours.
But there's this communal feeling. People are meeting each other from all over the world. I just met two family from -- from Ireland who also lived in New York. And now they're here and people are talking. You hear people singing, applauding at times.
It's really a remarkable thing. There's no -- there's sadness, yes, but there's also joy because so many people here have faith. And they -- they believe, as Pope Francis believed, that he -- that this is not the end, that that he is starting a new beginning, a beginning on something that is, he said he never experienced, fully experienced before, which is eternity.
Here's some of what we've heard from people waiting on line throughout the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me personally, it was really a beautiful experience to see our Holy Father, and I think that even the people also are very happy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The trip to Italy was planned months in advance. Now, we're in the middle of a historic you know, every, what, 40 years or something? Or the passing of the pope. So pretty, pretty lucky to be here. The timing was almost perfect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His life -- he visited so many countries, kissing the floor, kissing the feet of everybody. When I got in there today, I was the one giving him that kiss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And as you know, he's going to be lying in state for two more days.
HUNT: All right. Clarissa Ward, you're actually standing in line at St. Peter's Square right now. And you were able to go inside the basilica earlier? What was that like?
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It was an extraordinary privilege, Kasie. I just wanted to give you a sense of the line. As Anderson said, it's 10:30 at night. You can see people are lining up these lovely nuns from Mexico told us that they've been waiting for just over an hour. Buenas tardes.
And the line goes all the way back, back, back, back, back over there. And people are very excited for the opportunity to go and pay their last respects. And having had the privilege of spending some time in the basilica earlier, I can tell you that I understand why it's a truly extraordinary moment. It's a historic moment.
While we were there, we saw some people clearly very moved people down on their knees praying. People there with their children, babies hoisted up on shoulders, people trying desperately to capture with their cell phones this moment in time, and this quiet, this quiet as this long column of people slowly filed in to catch just a glimpse of Pope Francis lying in this open casket and red and white robes to pay their respects.
So interesting to see how many different ethnicities and religions and countries and nations represented among the people here today, and all of them hoping just to have that glimpse, to have that moment, to have that quiet time for reflection in this historic moment. And, you know, I will say, I didn't know what to expect. Pope Francis has been so emphatic in his life about wanting to be humble and simple.
But when you walk in to that majestic basilica, it truly is not simple. It is incredibly beautiful. And for many people, Kasie, incredibly moving.
HUNT: Indeed. And you know, one of the other things, Anderson, that was really
remarkable about today is when we actually watched the pope's coffin being moved through St. Peter's Square into the basilica, and we heard you call it a moment that no one alive today has ever seen before.
Can you explain why that is?
COOPER: Yeah. Well, it wasn't even so much. I mean, yes, in the square, but it was also in the streets we haven't seen. There has not been a pope who lived in the -- the Santa Marta in the residence there, as this pope did. He wasn't living in the -- in the papal apartments here. He was in the official papal apartment.
And so, to see the pope move from the small chapel in the building where he had lived his entire papacy in an open casket through the streets just to get to the basilica. Pope John Paul II was carried in a coffin in in St. Peter's Square, briefly.
But to see the pope through the streets was just -- I don't think it's ever happened before in that way.
[16:40:02]
And it was just -- it was so beautiful and so solemn. We were broadcasting it live. It was 3:00 a.m. in the United States when -- when it happened, and it was just you could hear the church bells ringing. And there was this the sound of the footsteps of the Swiss Guards and the papal gentlemen who were carrying the coffin on the cobblestone streets. It was truly a remarkable moment.
HUNT: Really fascinating.
Anderson Cooper, you, of course, have your show there tonight. Again, really remarkable work. Clarissa Ward, thanks to you as well. Really appreciate you both.
Coming up next here in THE ARENA, no cards to play. President Trump accusing Vladimir Zelenskyy of prolonging Russia's war. What the White House is saying about the president's thinning patience.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:45:09]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. The prospect of a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine this week looking increasingly uncertain, Vice President Vance repeating the administration's threat to abandon negotiations if the two do not agree to the American proposal. President Zelenskyy, already firmly rejecting said proposal, which would recognize Crimea as part of Russia, of course, after Putin seized the peninsula from Ukraine in 2014.
Trump putting the onus on the Ukrainian leader to accept the deal, writing on Truth Social, quote, the statement made by Zelenskyy today will do nothing but prolong the killing field and nobody wants that. We're very close to a deal, but the man with no cards to play should now finally get it done.
When asked by CNN's Jeff Zeleny what Trump's timeline meant for a deal, the White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: Not by the end of the day today. But the president has maintained that his frustration is growing, and he needs to see this thing come to an end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Joining us now to discuss is Ambassador Richard Haass, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations.
I'm so grateful to have you on THE ARENA, Richard. Thank you so much for being here.
Let's just start with -- I mean, you heard what the vice president said there at the beginning when we came in about what he wants to see from these parties and what America should do.
How do you view the way the administration is handling this?
AMBASSADOR RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT EMERITUS, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Look, I think it's fine, Kasie, that they want a ceasefire. Everybody should, even if Mr. Putin doesn't. But they've got it wrong, fundamentally wrong in two ways.
First, when you go for a ceasefire, you should simply go for a cessation of hostilities. Maybe you have some type of a peacekeeping force. But think of the ceasefires that have held over history. The one on the Korean peninsula, the one in Cyprus.
They were simple ceasefires. They didn't try to settle the big so- called final status issues. So that's the first mistake, throwing things like NATO and Crimea into it.
Secondly, the things they've thrown into it are totally one sided. This is a pro-Russian position. Let's just call it out for -- for what it is. So it's wrong methodologically, by introducing final status issues upfront. And then secondly, it exacerbates that by introducing positions that are very much what Mr. Putin wants to hear on NATO, Crimea and so forth.
Thirdly, it's not explicit, but it worries me when the vice president and the president talk about walking away. What worries me is not simply they're thinking about walking away from the peace process or negotiations. I worry they're setting Ukraine up to be the fall guy, and they're talking about abandoning, not simply negotiations, but abandoning, abandoning Ukraine. And I think that would be morally and strategically, deeply, deeply wrong.
HUNT: What do you make of the fact that were learning that Steve Witkoff is going to go back to Moscow? How do you look at his role in all of this and how it plays into kind of that scenario that you laid out, or the prospect of America abandoning not just these negotiations, but Ukraine?
HAASS: Look, all I know is that ever since Mr. Witkoff's been involved and been doing his shuttles to Moscow, the U.S. position is increasingly pretty much the same as the Russian position. And so, again, I'm not privy to those negotiations. Obviously, all I can look at is the result and what is said publicly, but so far at least, I don't see anything constructive that has come from as many hours of sitting face to face with -- with Vladimir Putin.
HUNT: Let's -- let's talk a little bit more about I mean, honestly, when I sat down to make a list of things I wanted to talk to you about, it got it got way longer than the time that were going to were going to have together. But we started the show with these trade negotiations, right.
And the way that the administration is talking about specifically China, and I'm really interested to know what you think about how the Chinese have been taking all of this in, because obviously they have, you know, responded in kind to the president. We have seen them escalate as opposed to attempt to de-escalate.
How do you think they're going to react to what we've heard? I mean, it's been a pretty significant shift from the administration in the last 24 hours.
HAASS: Let's talk about both that and the first subject, Ukraine. In terms of the trade negotiations, I think the Chinese are going to feel vindicated. The Americans imposed you know, we impose tariffs on China. China pushed back with large tariffs of their own. And it looks to be the United States that is backing down. So, from China's point of view, this was how they hoped it would play. It would play out.
[16:50:01]
And then secondly, you add that to the Ukraine negotiations, where the United States seems to be siding with Russia against Ukraine. Well, from China's point of view, again, that's a really good precedent. They're going to look at this through the prism of Taiwan and say, wow, maybe it's just a matter of time before we can persuade the Trump administration to act towards Taiwan, the same way they seem to be acting towards Ukraine.
So, I expect right now in Beijing, people are pretty happy with the flow of things.
HUNT: What is your sense that we played earlier? Some sound from the CEO -- that the citadel CEO who essentially said that the American brand -- he was talking about money, specifically, the American financial brand, the U.S. treasury, the U.S. dollar that has been the strongest brand in the world. And he said that this administration has been, you know, messing around with it, risking that brand.
How do you see the stature of America right now, at this moment, as compared to where we stood when Trump came into office the second time?
HAASS: Well, I'm glad to see he and other people are beginning to speak out. Better late than never. But obviously we've tarnished our reputation almost. What you say about people. It's a lot more -- it's a lot easier to destroy a reputation than it is to build one.
So, the United States has done real damage to international comfort with our ability to manage not just our own economic affairs, but because we've got such a big, big footprint, the world's economic affairs, given the role of the dollar and so forth.
So, I think what we've done way beyond the immediate question of tariffs and all that, Kasie, is we've accelerated trends in the world away from both trade with the United States, investment in the United States, and essentially the role of the dollar and the centrality of the United States. It's not going to happen overnight. You're not going to flip a switch.
But people are going to look back on this and they're going to say, this is where the movement away from American-centric, dollar-centric world, which is, by the way, given us, I would argue, enormous advantages, including the ability to run up this colossal debt of ours. I think they're going to look back at this and say, this is where the tectonic plates really began to shift.
HUNT: All right. Richard Haass, so grateful to have your expertise here, concerning, though, the picture that you are painting may be, I do hope you'll come back. I really appreciate it.
HAASS: Thanks, Kasie.
HUNT: So, Chuck Todd, I wanted to kind of take that idea that we were just looking at because, you know, I do feel this obviously covering the Trump administration is like drinking out of a fire hose all the time. You know, we did the whole first Trump administration. It was like that.
But it does feel this time like there is something historic happening that that we are we are trying to watch it through a straw and that when we pull back afterward, this will have been a moment in time when something pretty dramatic shifted, not just here in the in America, but in the world.
C. TODD: Look, I wish I could, you know, quickly go 50 years in the future. So I understand everything that's happening because I do think you're right, we're just -- we're at a moment. Some of it is has to do with the fact that we're shifting globally from a from an industrial based economy to this -- to this new global economy that I think, you know, we're not settled yet. And I think Donald Trump's learning the hard way that you can't sort of undo the global economy, that that you're not going to put that toothpaste back in the tube.
But, you know, in hearing Richard talk about it does look, Donald Trump views the great -- views of the world with the great powers, right? And he -- I think he believes there are three and that that's how he's viewing the world.
The question I have is this is this a Donald Trump thing or is this become -- does he leave this mark on the American presidency and the next president, no matter who it is, D or R, sort of accepts that this is how the world works? I'm not so convinced of that. But that doesn't mean this doesn't do the damage he's talking about, whether it's making trade deals, you know, creating trust in the world, whether its security or economic.
But I do think is -- I don't know if Donald Trump is doing this, that's something that's going to survive him.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, something totally different. Katie Perry, I-E, versus Katy Perry with a Y. We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:55:04]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back.
Australia's high court has a major case on their docket. Katie Perry versus Katy Perry.
I'm sorry. What?
So, Katie Perry, that is Katie spelled K-A-T-I-E, is apparently an Australian designer with a fashion label under her name. And she claims that Katy Perry, the pop star, is infringing on her trademark. The designer says she started her label back in 2006, registered its trademark in 2009. If you're my age, you may remember that that was around the same time that Katy Perry released her debut hit single, "I kissed a girl".
Over the years, this trademark case has made its way through Australia's legal system and designer Katie won in 2023. But an appeals court reversed that ruling in favor of pop star Katy in 2024. Now, their high court will decide who gets to claim the name Katy Perry in Australia.
On her shop's website, Australian Katie Perry calls this a David and Goliath case.
Okay. Fair enough.
Jake Tapper standing by for "THE LEAD" right now.
Hi, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, THE LEAD: You always bring the firework, Kasie. HUNT: Oh, look at you. I gave you a whole minute to come up with
that. I'm very impressed.
TAPPER: It's actually firework. I was corrected by Gene Sperling. I was going to say fireworks, but the economic expert corrected me. Firework.
HUNT: Thank you.
TAPPER: Singular.
HUNT: Thanks so much, Kasie.
We'll see you back in THE ARENA tomorrow.
