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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
FBI Arrests Judge On Charges Of Obstructing Immigrant's Arrest; Trump: "Pretty Close" On Peace Deal Between Russia & Ukraine; Trump Tells Time Magazine He's Made "200 Deals" On Trade; Vatican: 250,000 People Paid Respects To Pope Francis. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired April 25, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Saving time and saving money. What do you think about it? There are ethical considerations.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Fascinating, fascinating.
I was preparing for us to close the show on the huge news that Gwyneth Paltrow is eating carbs again. This is like a seismic --
KEILAR: And cheese.
SANCHEZ: And cheese.
KEILAR: Some pasta.
SANCHEZ: Seismic stuff.
KEILAR: Sourdough bread.
SANCHEZ: Yeah.
KEILAR: It is big news. It's important you mention it. I'm glad you did.
SANCHEZ: Breaking news, I haven't stopped eating carbs and cheese.
KEILAR: I know, it's surprising, but I as well have not.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
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KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's justice versus the judge.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
A Wisconsin judge is arrested by federal law enforcement and charged with obstructing ICE agents from apprehending an undocumented immigrant. New details on the case and the political fallout.
Plus, a day after venting frustration, President Trump tries to put an optimistic spin on his effort to end the Russia Ukraine war as he heads to the pope's funeral. And as his go-to envoy meets with Vladimir Putin.
And the president moving the goalposts on tariffs again, laying down new markers as he talks of making more trade deals than there are countries on the planet.
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HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA.
It's wonderful to have you with us on this Friday. We did make it to Friday, I think.
We're going to begin with today's dramatic escalation in the Trump administration's conflict with judges. A protest getting underway in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, this hour after FBI agents arrested a county circuit judge this morning.
The Justice Department accusing Judge Hannah Dugan of helping an undocumented immigrant avoid arrest after he appeared in her courtroom last week. This appears to be the first time the Trump administration has charged a sitting local official with obstructing immigration enforcement. At least that we know of.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: That's her picture up on the screen, Hannah Dugan, who is now in custody. You cannot obstruct a criminal case. And really shame on her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That, of course, the attorney general, Pam Bondi, on Fox News touting the judges arrest after the FBI director, Kash Patel, first broke the news in a post on the platform formerly known as Twitter. It was later deleted. Patel wrote this, quote: We believe Judge Dugan intentionally misdirected federal agents away from the subject to be arrested in her courthouse, Eduardo Flores-Ruiz, allowing the subject an illegal alien, to evade arrest.
Let's get straight to CNN's Whitney Wild. She is live outside the federal courthouse in Milwaukee.
Whitney, what more are you learning about this arrest?
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: These unsealed court documents give quite a bit of detail about what federal law enforcement thinks led up to this, what they felt was their obligation to eventually arrest this judge. They say this all stemmed from an incident that happened April 18th, when Flores-Ruiz was due in court in front of Judge Hannah Dugan. He was there to appear on battery charges.
Through the course of the morning, Judge Dugan learned that federal agents were there to arrest him. There were about six federal agents there from multiple agencies the FBI, DEA, and ICE among them. And when, according to the complaint, when Judge Dugan learned that they were there to arrest Flores-Ruiz, she became very upset. She actually pulled some of those agents aside and had a phone call with the chief judge, in which the chief judge insisted that any arrests would have to take place in the public area of the courthouse.
And this is crucial, Kasie, because what they say happened next was that Judge Dugan went into her courtroom and as Flores and his attorney were set to leave through the public door, the door that would have led to the hallway, she, according to the complaint, said, wait, come with me and then ushered them through the jury door, which took them to a private area of the courthouse. That made it obviously much more difficult for these agents to arrest Flores-Ruiz. They were able eventually, through the course of the morning, to arrest him.
But what the FBI makes clear in that complaint is that they believe that was an obstruction of justice. And so, they've moved forward with this arrest. And while, as you point out, it is a major escalation, it is not altogether surprising given that they have said from the outset that they are prepared to bring the full force of the law against anyone that includes elected state and local officials, if they perceive them as blocking their duty to, as they say, enforce these immigration laws across the country -- Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Whitney Wild for us outside that courthouse in Milwaukee, where, of course, you can see and hear people gathering in reaction to what we have seen.
Whitney, thank you very much.
I want to go now to CNN law enforcement analyst, former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe.
Sir, thanks so much for being on the show today.
This played out pretty unusually in that we first learned about it in a post from the FBI director himself that was later deleted.
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Can you just give us some insight and help us understand how unusual it is or isn't for federal officials to do something like this, and what your view is of the role that the FBI played in what we know happened here?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, sure, Kasie. And this is an absolutely bizarre situation on many levels. Not the least of which has been the Department of Justice's crowing about this arrest in light of in the aftermath of its exposure today. You know, a department that used to pride itself on, letting the legal filings speak for themselves and not actively getting out on the media and essentially convicting someone in the court of public opinion.
But nevertheless, the FBIs involvement here is also somewhat odd, and I think it's a reflection of the fact that the bureau has been dragged into immigration and enforcement by this administration in a way that it has never seen and in fact, has avoided in administrations past. The FBI received authority to -- to make -- to conduct immigration enforcement not long after September 11th.
But there was a deliberate decision by FBI leadership, not to authorize agents to actually use that authority and instead officially deferred all immigration matters to DHS. FBI agents aren't trained on immigration law. They aren't used to executing arrests without federal court warrants, things like that. So, it's something that is beyond their purview.
Today, you see them doing it routinely and ending up in situations like this. I should also add that by spending their time enforcing immigration laws, there's a lot of other things, FBI things that agents are not doing because they've been drawn away from those priorities.
HUNT: Andy, will you stand? Stand by for me. I want to come back to you kind of throughout this broader panel conversation, because, of course, this all means that the political battleground state of Wisconsin is now the backdrop for this highly unusual and aggressive legal action against this judge from the Trump administration.
Of course, the Trump administration, led by a president who has been free to express his feelings, hostility towards the judiciary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Radical left judges.
Radical left lunatic judges.
He's a nasty judge, extreme far left judges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Joining our panel, CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, CNN political commentator Jamal Simmons, and CNN senior political commentator and Republican strategist David Urban.
Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here.
Katelyn Polantz, I want to start with you on our latest reporting around this, because this, of course, a very sensitive area for state and local officials, their interactions with the federal government, of course, always highly scrutinized, as a general matter. Clearly, this judge is in a difficult position now.
What do we know about what her plans are to try to fight back against this, and what the administration's next moves are?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they have a case, and that case is going to go on in court. She hasn't entered a plea yet. She was released after her appearance. But one of the things that I think should really be highlighted here is not the case against the judge.
It's unusual, but it's not unprecedented. There has been a case like this before. In 2019, during the first Trump administration charging a judge in Massachusetts who was accused of something very similar, trying to usher someone out of that courtroom as ICE officials were waiting for that defendant in that case that ended up being resolved, those charges were dropped in the Biden administration against that judge in Massachusetts. But she ended up cutting a deal. So, it was a legitimate case there as well.
We don't know how this will go for Judge Dugan, but the thing I really want to highlight here is how this was done today. The attorney general wants to make an example of this. And boy, are they, Kasie. I mean, it's not just the Attorney General Tom Homan coming out and saying doesn't matter who you are, we'll go after you. We'll charge you criminally with obstruction.
They apprehended this judge on courthouse grounds at 8:30 this morning, and then held her in a holding facility at the federal courthouse until her initial appearance, which happened mid-morning in Milwaukee on these federal charges. It's an obstruction charge. Yes, but often people who are upstanding members of the community who aren't a risk of flight, who aren't a danger to the community, they're not put in a cell. They're contacted and said, come in later whenever you want to face your charges when you negotiate this.
And so that situation, the apprehending of the judge and then using the federal government's spotlight to point at this case, it just shows you how much of a hard line the administration wants to take here.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Everything Katelyn said and Andrew McCabe said before her about the way this is being handled, the way the arrest is being handled, the way that DOJ is publicizing this is spot on and correct.
However, looking at the complaint, lets strip the politics out of it. This is a crime. If they can prove what happened here, it is a crime.
This judge -- let's -- let's strip the Trump of it all out. Let's strip the immigration of it all out. Let's say law enforcement shows up at a building with an arrest warrant. They're looking for person A, person B then says, hey, there's a secret escape door out back. I'm going to show you the way, and then ushers that person out the back door.
That is textbook obstruction. That said, I think there's a fair debate to be had that I guess you two will be having in a moment about whether -- whether prosecutors should have brought this case.
And let me tell you, I've been in both state and federal side. If I was at DOJ and someone brought me this case on these facts, I would say I get it. I get that robotically, this is a crime. But I don't know that this is the right move here.
Can't we just call up the state courthouse, see if there's some way we can work this out with the judiciary? How are we going to make arrests? I did this, where are we going to make arrests? What are the protocols we're going to agree on? Jumping, right -- not everything that's a crime must be indicted or charged by complaint. And so, I think this is a crime on paper, but there's a very fair debate about whether it should have been charged.
HUNT: Well, prosecutors make choices.
HONIG: Exactly.
HUNT: And allocation of resources.
But, David Urban, you have been looking like you want to jump in on this. So please, your floor is yours.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: McCabe, I was waiting since McCabe was talking. Oh my god.
Listen, I hear these people chanting no justice, no peace. Let's not forget this. This person, Mr. Ruiz, committed two crimes. He entered the United States illegally. Well, I don't know about the second crime.
He's in court there today for domestic violence charge. Okay, so it's not like he's there because he's, you know, he's an upstanding citizen. Somebody brought charges against the guy to show up in court for, for allegedly domestic, you know, hitting somebody in some, in some circumstance. So, so two strikes against the guy to begin with.
The judge in this case knows what's going on, sees the ICE officials in the back to, you know, to Elie's point, makes the conscious decision, I'm going to break the law. I'm going to break the law. And let me just make it clear, this president was elected overwhelmingly to seal the border and close down immigration loopholes. We had a poll recently.
Harry put out 60 percent of Americans today want to deport every one of the 11 million plus illegal aliens. They want to deport them. So, for Trump, for the Trump administration, politically, winner, winner, chicken dinner.
Every time you get somebody in this case, this judge, you know there's -- there's that -- remember when the Colombian president had the did the you know, the plane shuffle and Trump put out the tweet with the with the face and the FAFO, same tweet here today.
HUNT: Jamal, floor is yours.
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, there's another poll out today from "Washington Post" that says that 52 percent of Americans no longer agree with the president's approach on immigration. So, we can find polls all over the place.
Listen, what baffles me, really, I got to say, I can't believe the attorney general of the United States is like a Fox News pundit will only really go on Fox News and is announcing cases on a cable news network. God bless cable news network. You know, I love one right here.
HUNT: Very happy to be here.
SIMMONS: I'm very happy to be here.
HUNT: Yes.
SIMMONS: But then you've got the FBI director who's sending out notices in tweets. Again, as Andy McCabe said, this usually happens in the filings. Someone finds it out, reporters report it. Instead, we've got government officials acting like political pundits. God bless political pundits, but they've got government officials acting this way. And that's just improper. And -- and they're spiking the football in the end zone. Nobody really likes it.
URBAN: But again, I think the message this is everyone points out this is a messaging moment, right? This is a messaging moment that were that this administration is not going to tolerate. Obstruction.
SIMMONS: Amateur hour.
HUNT: Well --
SIMMONS: Amateur hour.
POLANTZ: It's the messaging of it's Trump versus our courts, right?
URBAN: No, no, I don't think it's Trump versus the court.
POLANTZ: It's Trump, the ultimate authority in immigration, and that's the pattern.
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Listen, I disagree with you. I think it's -- I think it's anybody -- if you're -- if you're a local law enforcement, if a police officer did this, I think this is just a court system. This woman just happened to do this today in front of the world. I mean, she broke the law in front of the world today and she should be punished.
HUNT: I will also say that I mean, to your point, David, we are not sitting here talking about China, tariffs and the economy, which is where you do see, I mean, 64 percent of Americans.
URBAN: We're going to talk --
HUNT: We are, but we are obviously starting with this.
I actually -- Andrew McCabe, I just -- I have one question about kind of Kash Patel's conduct today that I'm really interested to know, kind of your thinking about it, the fact that he put up this post and then felt the need to delete it. What does that tell you about what may have happened behind the scenes? What was appropriate or inappropriate about him doing that?
I mean, it's -- it's rare that we see Trump officials, you know, walk back things he clearly felt he needed to like what was going on there.
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MCCABE: Yeah. Well, so, FBI directors traditionally do not speak about arrests in this way. They certainly don't gloat or pound their chests over them in the way that he did, here today.
I hope that he pulled the message down, because somewhere on the seventh floor, he actually has an advisor with some common sense who he listens to. And that person said to him, you know what? You should take that down. It looks horrible. And it further inserts the FBI into kind of first place on what will be a very volatile and political issue. And that is the last place they need to be.
So hopefully, he took that advice and took the post down. But (AUDIO GAP) see more from him. And I should also say, Kasie, I absolutely agree with Elie. This indictment is strong on its face. They have numerous witnesses. They have a lot of facts that will support this prosecution.
But to quote David, yeah, this is a messaging day. And the message here is treating this judge like she just committed some sort of a violent crime, which she didn't. And publicly humiliating her. That is the message to the rest of local judges, local sheriffs, local officials who may feel uncomfortable now being on the on the pointy edge of the government's immigration efforts.
This is a -- this is an effort at intimidation. Theres a clear message being sent by the administration here today. I'm just not so sure it's a good one.
URBAN: And again, Kasie, just one quick thing that keeps irking the hell out of me. The -- this is -- Mr. Ruiz in her courtroom for domestic violence charge. Wasn't a speeding ticket. Wasn't like the guy who had parking tickets that were overstays.
He abused somebody. This was allegedly abused somebody. And this woman felt in her power to spit him out the back door because she's some, some, you know, some warrior.
HONIG: Just one quick point about the way this is being handled by the AG, by Tom Homan, by the administration. I was at times sharply critical of the prosecutions and prosecutors going after Donald Trump for just this reason.
I objected to Fani Willis making inflammatory public statements. I objected at times to some of the things Jack Smith did because I thought they were over the line. The same analysis goes here.
I think having Pam Bondi crowing about this, having various administration members waving a flag like it's the greatest case in law enforcement history, make your case in court. The case on paper, on the complaint is there. Do your talking in court.
SIMMONS: Kasie, it may be possible this is like a civil rights infraction. And this judge saw this as a way for her to stand up against what she thinks is unfair use of the government power against immigrants. We saw this also in the 1960s and '50s, when people were sitting down at lunch counters where kids were standing outside. They were being hosed down with fire hoses.
Yeah. Were they breaking the law? Perhaps. Was the law also wrong in the way they went after them? Absolutely.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, we're going to dig into new details on the meeting today between a top U.S. official and Vladimir Putin while Russia defies President Trump's plea to stop deadly strikes on Ukraine.
Plus, Wall Street finishing another wild week as a new economic report and poll shows Americans growing even more grim about how the president's tariffs will impact them.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's what my aim is. I want to save 5,000 young men. They happen to be mostly Ukrainian, Russian, 5,000 young Ukrainian and Russian men. And that's -- that's a big honor if I can do it. I think -- I think we're pretty close.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: President Trump once again describing a Ukrainian ceasefire -- Ukraine ceasefire deal as pretty close, even though were yet to see any indication that may be the case.
Trump, currently, en route to the pope's funeral, where he will navigate a diplomatic minefield. One key leader, one potential mine in the field, though, may not be there anymore. The Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, says he might not be able to make the funeral in time due to scheduled military meetings in Kyiv. This all comes as president Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff, met with President Putin in Moscow for the fourth time earlier today, and follows another night of Russian bombing despite President Trump's appeal to Putin to stop.
Joining our panel, senior political correspondent for "The Wall Street Journal", Molly Ball and CNN senior political analyst Ron Brownstein.
Welcome to both of you.
David Urban, I hear you over there talking in response to what we're reading about. So you go first.
URBAN: I think, at some point, you know, Trump's going to have to say, screw it, right, and walk away. And I don't know what point that's going to happen.
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Walk away mean though? You mean no more aid to Ukraine.
URBAN: No, no, no. BROWNSTEIN: They're allowed to run through it.
URBAN: This is the point that's going to say you're going to make a decision whether you're going to continue to arm the Ukrainians and let them fight it out. When Putin just continues to say, you know, pound sand to Donald Trump.
I think Trump's going to get, you know, PO'd at some point and, you know, say have at it, boys. Go back at it. You saw it last night or this afternoon. I'm quite sure the timing of it.
But one of the leading Russian planning generals and one of their joint chiefs of staff kind of person was -- was summarily departed from this earth. And so, the Ukrainians have a -- they're having a pretty good run on it. And the Russians may be maybe pretty smart to sit down at the table, because I don't think there's a -- there's a great ending for them here.
We saw sanctions before in the Biden administration -- threatened sanctions in the Biden administration. I think the Trump administration could crank them up again. But doesn't look like Vladimir Putin wants to wants to get a deal done anywhere.
BROWNSTEIN: Right, it doesn't look like Putin wants to take yes for an answer, right? Because, I mean, Trump's secret plan to end the war, at least as outlined this week, turns out to be give Russia essentially everything it wants. Pressure Ukraine to accept it at basically the point of a gun, which is what we're going to take away the aid you need to defend yourself, and call that a deal.
[16:25:05]
I mean, like I was talking about the other day. I mean, the word deal doesn't even really apply to what -- what we're talking about here. And that is still not enough for Putin. For Trump to say that, you know, Putin's concession is that he's going to give up trying to take over the whole country, as long as the U.S. continues to do what it's been doing, he can't take over the whole country. But if the U.S. walks away, you might see significantly more destruction.
And I continue to believe that that is not a risk-free option for Donald Trump, that we saw what happened in Kabul with the American public. Pictures of Kyiv like we have seen in the last two days, are not going to look good on the resume of Donald Trump.
HUNT: So, here's one, devil's advocate to -- Ron, I mean, I think what you're articulating is certainly a view that a lot of people in Washington hold. However, David Ignatius over at "The Washington Post", who is, of course, a longtime chronicler, molly ball of our -- our foreign policy, national security across the world, had a little bit of a different take in a column.
Here's how he started it, okay? Let's get the e peace deal done. President Donald Trump posted on Thursday. He's obviously impatient, but U.S., European and Ukrainian officials all report some signs of progress in hammering out an agreement that could end the war in Ukraine.
Now, here's a couple of the people that Ignatius quoted: William B. Taylor, a former U.S. ambassador to Kyiv. This is in the zone of the negotiable with some work. They could get it over the line.
There is some optimism to be felt right now. That was a senior European official who remained anonymous, and Wednesday's discussions in London were, quote, positive, according to Lieutenant General Keith Kellogg, who is Trump's special envoy to Ukraine, he seems to have less influence than Witkoff, of course.
And then Ignatius wraps up the sort of kicker paragraph of his column. Is this the challenge for Trump has been how to couple the hunger for a ceasefire with security guarantees for Ukraine that are strong and credible enough to stop Putin from invading again? Trump isn't there yet, but he's getting closer? What do you think of all of this?
MOLLY BALL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: I think, you know, I would never question David Ignatius, his insight or his sources --
HUNT: Who are we to.
BALL: -- on this matter. I think this is probably the most hopeful way you can look at what is happening right now. And I think there are certainly, as Ron was saying, a lot of more pessimistic views.
And to Ron's point, I think the political peril for Trump is. Not only that you know, there could be these distressing pictures, which I think is a little bit different from Kabul, where so many American service members actually recall having their boots on the ground, which isn't the case in Ukraine.
HUNT: Thirteen Americans.
BALL: But still -- right. That being said, I think the other political peril for Trump is that this is something he promised to do, right? He didn't say, I'm going to make a deal if everybody agrees to it and if my ultimatum is successful. but if not, I'll just say it's not my fault.
He said he would get this done. He -- this was a big part of what he promised to accomplish on foreign policy. So, I think it's very difficult for him to walk away from this politically. And who knows if that's even real or if it's sort of a negotiating tactic. I had some conversations about this with the White House today, and they're saying, well, it's obviously sort of a negotiating tactic here to say were ready to walk away. When you put an ultimatum on the table. But I think if he did walk away under whatever terms, that would also be a potential political problem for him.
SIMMONS: You know, I was in the White House in 2022 and Russia invaded Ukraine. And I remember when the vice president went to Munich and she met with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and there was great concern at that period that Zelenskyy wasn't going to make it to the spring. Right. That that we had pretty much seen the end of Volodymyr Zelenskyy. They're still there. They're still fighting. The reason why they're
still there is because the Americans showed up and the Americans showed up with troops and the American -- not with troops, but with arms. Americans showed up with intelligence. The Americans showed up to keep Russia at bay.
And if we don't keep Russia at bay, I think a lot of people in the foreign policy community are worried that he's not going to be satisfied with Ukraine, and he'll keep going forward, and NATO will be at stake. And the minute that Russia goes after a NATO country, then the United States is obligated to get involved. That is a very serious global issue, and I think we have to keep it seriously up front.
URBAN: It is big, and Ron, to your point, you know, how do you negotiate with somebody here, Putin, who doesn't appear to want to negotiate, who doesn't want to take yes for an answer? I mean, they're there. They're trying. The Trump administration is trying its damnedest to get this done. And Putin is saying no.
I mean, at some point, Molly, I think you say, you know, you do walk away from the table and say, good luck. The Europeans can keep arming, and we're going to keep arming them and let the Ukrainians. The problem is --
SIMMONS: You get mad, you get mad at Russia and you're never going to empower Russia? That's the answer?
URBAN: You're never going to be able to push militarily. You're never going to be able to extricate the Russians from where they are right now. Thats the problem, right? From a military perspective, you can query anybody --
SIMMONS: Can you keep them --
HUNT: Hold on. MAGA is not going to let him --
URBAN: No, no.
HUNT: -- continue to fund Ukraine.
URBAN: That's the point. And Jamal's very valid point.
[16:30:00]
You can't allow the Russians to continue with their, you know, unchecked aggression because it does threaten the entire -- the entire notion of NATO and the entire Western, you know, Western Europe, you know, European alliance. And so, it is perhaps might be the defining moment of the Trump administration.
HUNT: All right. You heard it here first, straight -- straight from his mouth to God's ears.
All right. Coming up next here, President Trump says that he's negotiated 200 trade deals but is refusing to give any details or make any formal announcements. So, what's going on? Try to find out. Plus, the striking new comments from a vulnerable Democratic senator
just in.
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[16:35:00]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back.
President Trump telling "Time Magazine" in an interview published today that he's already made, quote, 200 trade deals in the two weeks since he announced a 90-day pause on reciprocal tariffs. That, of course, is a number that's higher than the 195 countries that exist in the world.
But when pressed by "Time" on the number, Trump confirmed replying 100 percent but providing no additional details about the supposed deals.
Other numbers out today, however, show that Americans do not feel so great about the state of the U.S. economy. Consumer sentiment dropping 8 percent in April in what was the steepest three-month decline since the 1990 recession. And a new Post/ABC/Ipsos poll shows that 64 percent of Americans disapprove of the presidents handling on tariffs.
Ron Brownstein, that number is like an overwhelming majority in our 49/49 country.
BROWNSTEIN: You know, in Trump's first term, the economy was a floor underneath him. Like no matter what else was going on, the public's confidence that he could effectively manage the economy bolstered him, lifted him up.
HUNT: It was always higher than his approval.
BROWNSTEIN: It was higher than his approval rating every time CNN, CNBC and Gallup asked. Now, we're in exactly the opposite situation. His economic approval rating is consistently lower than his overall approval rating. His economic disapproval rating is higher than at any point in his first term, running around 56 percent now, in polls closer to 60 percent on inflation, even higher on the tariffs.
And in particular, I've been tracking two groups. If you look at the most important gains Trump made in 2024, it was Latinos and it was young voters, especially men. And his economic approval rating among Latinos has cratered. 70 percent disapprove. On inflation, his economic numbers among young voters, one last poll thing that really jumped out at me that I thought was an early warning sign for Biden has reappeared for Trump. Both CBS and Economist polls have asked, do you think his policies are making you better off or worse off? It's at least 2 to 1 worse off now, 4 to 1 among Hispanics, which, again, were his most important gains.
Yeah, there may have been some cultural, you know, things that were part of it. Mostly, it was that Biden had mismanaged the economy and now they feel the same way about Trump.
HUNT: I mean, David Urban, that's pretty damning.
No, I'm sorry, Molly, you can jump in.
BALL: Go ahead. I was just going to say, I think what's interesting here, speaking of Biden, is that, you know, my colleague Greg had this fascinating column last week pointing out that the actual concrete economic indicators are still quite stable. Inflation hasn't gone up, unemployment hasn't gone up.
The economy, if you shut your eyes and forget there was a presidential inauguration, basically looks the same as when Biden was in office, except for the vibes. And so, it is possible that Trump is facing a similar situation that Biden did, where the White House was constantly complaining, hey, the economy is great. Why aren't people feeling it? Why don't people notice how good the economy actually is?
Now, there's clearly an expectation that prices are going to go up. There was the expectation in the markets that things are going to get worse. But I do think it's interesting just to notice that on those actual concrete economic indicators, things are have not yet started.
BROWNSTEIN: I would just say that that whole line of argument from the Biden people ignore the fact that prices were 20 percent higher on the things that people cared about once they stabilize, you know, I thought Trump's problem on the economy initially was that people did not see him as prioritizing the problem. They thought he was ignoring the problem of inflation.
Now, I think he is at a different level of risk where they think he is compounding the problem of inflation. People overwhelmingly believe that the tariffs are going to raise their daily costs on things they care about. And this was the issue above all, he was elected to deal with. Initially they thought he wasn't dealing with it. Now they think the way he's dealing with it is making it worse.
URBAN: I'd say, listen, there's a huge messaging issue here, right? So, the administration looks at this and says we're going to do tariffs. We're going to continue deregulation. We're going to do energy independence. We're going to pass this big tax cut bill. We're going to do all these things that's going to stimulate the economy.
HUNT: Except they're going to raise taxes on rich people. But that's another thing.
URBAN: We may --
(LAUGHTER)
URBAN: But we're going to do all these things in the economy is going to, you know, kind of hum along and it's going to be great and it's going to be packaged together, but it's not being presented that way. So, it's being presented individually. Each of these things is painful individually, right? And so on. This tariff portion, you know, as Ron said, you know, Trump in the first administration, it's the barometer of how well he's doing. So, he's looking at Wall Street. Numbers are great. He feels good. But
at the same time, Donald Trump is as long as he's been going to doing television, he's felt that the American worker has been a sucker, been just overrun by bad trade deals. Time and time again. So, there's this tension. Theres this tension internally, the White House of I want to have good numbers on Wall Street, but I want to protect American workers.
How do we reshore jobs? How do we get these things done? And so, he, you know, Wall Street hates fair trade. They love free trade. They don't like fair trade.
BROWNSTEIN: Can I just have one thing real quick? I'm sorry. Theres a category error here, though. You know, there are 12.7 million people who work in manufacturing. The post-World War II high is 19.7 million. In the best of all possible worlds, this tariffs add like 3 million, maybe at the outside manufacturing jobs.
[16:40:00]
Three hundred ten million people own smartphones. Everybody buys clothes and sneakers and toys. The number of -- the number of, you know, voters in Las Vegas who can't afford daily essentials, they didn't care when Joe Biden opened a new Honda and Intel plant in Ohio, as long as their daily prices were too high. Trump is in the same situation.
SIMMONS: Yeah, here's the problem. The problem is it's not about the trees. It's about the forest. And the forest looks like it's on fire. And these guys don't know where the hoses are, right? It's like amateur hour in the White House.
And so, I think what's happening to people is maybe you can make the argument that if we have a little bit of pain on tariffs, things will be better later. The problem is you've got Signal-gate happening. Youve got people worried about people getting fired. And oh no, wait a minute. We fired the FAA people. We got to bring them back to keep the planes in the air. We fired the people. Weve got to bring them back to stop that.
All these things wrapped up together feel to people like amateur hour. The place is in disarray. This team doesn't know what it's doing. How can you have confidence that the economy is going to be okay if they don't know what they're doing?
URBAN: One quick thing on tariffs. I do think, Ron, on the manufacturing front, we need to make more things in America, right? And so the fact that people can buy dollar tube socks now at Walmart versus dollar 50 when they're made in Annapolis, North Carolina, I think we need to rethink that as a nation and determine is it a value for us to make things in America again, washers, dryers, things like that.
Do we care about that? Do we care about cheap goods and no and no manufacturing? You know, there are mutual --
SIMMONS: We are Americans. Wewe want both. We want it all.
HUNT: We're about -- we're about to find out if people are voting, how they're voting exactly. Because a lot of times its with their wallets straight up.
All right. Up next, breaking news just coming in. Something Senator Jon Ossoff saying today. We'll show you what it was and talk about the reaction.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:46:03]
HUNT: All right, welcome back.
We have new comments just coming in from a, shall we say, lively town hall this afternoon in Georgia. We're going to let you watch. Listen to this.
It was a question that was posed to Democratic Senator Jon Ossoff about President Trump. Here was Ossoff's reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are there no calls for impeachment? This is unacceptable. I will not live in an authoritative country, and neither will any of these people. You can do more. I like you and I will vote for you if you are brave and you do what we need.
We need him impeached. We need him removed.
SEN. JON OSSOFF (D-GA): There is no doubt that this president's conduct has already exceeded any prior standard for impeachment by the United States House of Representatives. I agree with you but as I said at the beginning, I also have no choice but to be candid with you about the situation that we face and the tools that are at our disposal. As strongly as I agree with you, ma'am, and I regret if this is an unwelcome response. But my job is, to be honest with you.
The only way to achieve what you want to achieve is to have a majority in the United States House of Representatives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So Ossoff is up for reelection next year. You may remember he won by just a point in a runoff election in 2021. He could potentially be facing MAGA firebrand Marjorie Taylor Greene, who President Trump has said should run for that seat. She has hinted that that is also what she is interested in doing.
Our panel is back.
Molly Ball, what is your initial reaction to how he handled that? Because, I mean, clearly, he was trying to tell her like, yes, what -- what -- what the president has done is impeachable conduct. But I also heard in there a politician who was trying to explain why that was never going to happen.
BALL: That's right. And we have seen that Democratic members of congress are under a lot of pressure from their base, as you saw in that clip, to show that they are fighting to show that they are doing something, to show that they are, you know, taking to the battlements to resist President Trump.
I think the question is whether that's going to be good politics, politics for Ossoff, a year and a half from now, when he is up for reelection and probably the most important Senate race in the country, probably the most difficult Senate race in the country, depending on who his opponent is.
As you mentioned, if he's up against Marjorie Taylor Greene. It may be a little bit of an easier fight, but if he's going to be up against the very popular Republican governor, Brian Kemp, that would be --
HUNT: Kemp in a walk, probably.
BALL: That might be a much more difficult in a state that that that Trump won pretty easily.
SIMMONS: Well, and also remember, this will be his first election without Raphael Warnock also being on the ballot, who generated a lot of enthusiasm among African Americans to show up.
HUNT: Yeah, that's a really, really good point.
And Ron Brownstein, Manu Raju was actually covering this race back at the end of March. And here's what he wrote about how Ossoff is looking at this race. Ossoff is making a starkly different and potentially riskier calculation that swing voters will be alienated by Trump's dramatic push to expand his power, target his foes and dismantle federal government, and that the 2026 elections will ultimately be determined by the party that can bring out its base. I mean, you probably did see a little bit of that strategy in that clip.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, first of all, I agree with Molly. I mean, it's a completely -- Marjorie Taylor Greene is a very different thing than Brian Kemp.
I do wonder if there's kind of an inverse relationship between Brian Kemp's interest in the Senate versus president in '28, running for president, based on how well Trump is doing, and whether the idea of continuing to go down a MAGA road, as opposed to reverting to a more traditional Republicanism, might be attractive to voters.
Look, you know, the midterm elections are fundamentally about the incumbent president. The biggest single factor in a midterm election is what is the incumbent president's approval rating? It was 45 percent for Trump in 2018, and they lost 41 seats in the House.
[16:50:04]
There was big variation on his approval rating state by state in that that year, you know, it was below 50. In places where Democrats won, it was above 50. In places where they beat Democratic senators like Missouri, Indiana and North Dakota at the same time, they were losing those 40 house seats. I think, however, Ossoff positions himself vis- a-vis Trump. Whether Trump is over or under 50 in Georgia is probably going to be the most important factor.
HUNT: You think the rest of it just won't matter.
BROWNSTEIN: I think it will. I mean, all these things do matter, but I think that the presidential, you know, were at a point where presidential approval in the midterm really is a driving factor.
URBAN: And I think this administration is going to focus on that. Very quickly. I know Mat Brasseaux, who's the White House political director, who's focused on it every day because they realize.
HUNT: What a tough job, because they realize what happens.
URBAN: Listen, when I worked in the Senate, I worked when I was Arlen Specter's chief of staff during the Clinton impeachment. You know, I was I was pretty opposed to the Clinton impeachment because I think its impeachment is designed for a much different -- for high crimes and misdemeanors, right? And in the Clinton impeachment was a bad precedent. And the Trump impeachments were worse precedents.
And so now, if we view it as like were just flossing our teeth when we impeach --
BROWNSTEIN: January 6, worst precedent?
SIMMONS: Yeah, January 6th.
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: No, no, no. Listen, I think I do. I mean, you could disagree. I think I do -- I do and I think that if we just continue to like, want to impeach everybody, it's going to be an impeachment no matter who's in there. Republicans are going to do it. It's a pox on everybody's house.
You can argue on the January 6th stuff, but --
HUNT: I mean, look, I take your point about like Americans view the first impeachment of Donald Trump eventually as a very political exercise. I think you should set aside by January -- I mean, January 6th. It was a knife's edge whether Republicans were going to be willing to actually convict in that case. And it was for good reason. It was because those windows were smashed. There was blood everywhere. Very different.
URBAN: I'm not -- I'm not saying there wasn't a violent riot at the capitol, and the bad people did bad things and should go to jail. I'm just not sure there's a complete -- I can draw the nexus and complete line of between Donald Trump's actions and the actions. If you're a 50-year-old white male and you're breaking a window, I don't want you to say, go to your mom and say, Donald Trump made me did it. You're responsible for your actions. The America that I live in, you're responsible for your actions, not
Donald Trump.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, Donald Trump should be responsible for not responding. I mean, those were his actions.
HUNT: Right.
URBAN: You know, Ron, you can criticize it for not responding more, more, more quickly and doing more forcefully. But the people who broke those windows and assaulted those police officers should serve time. And I don't disagree. I don't disagree with that.
BROWNSTEIN: They've all now been pardoned.
SIMMONS: They went at his instigation, he said, you know, he did not -- he did not send the troops to go stop them. And he was going to benefit.
HUNT: Let's bring it back to this moment, because, again, this is Jamal. We were talking about this because it the reality is the perception of impeachment has become a very political one. Thats why that question is difficult for Jon Ossoff, because what his base wants is different from potentially what swing voters in Georgia are going to want.
SIMMONS: Yeah, and it's not going to happen. And so that's the problem for a lot of Democratic politicians who are in this conversation is, you know, you're not going to get impeachment because Republicans aren't going to vote for that at this point.
So, the question for the Democrats is, what is the Democratic offering for what they want to do with the country if they win the Congress back? And I think we don't know yet what would happen with Democrats.
URBAN: I would just -- I would just say that may be beneficial to Ossoff, because if there wasn't impeachment, Ossoff would have to vote. He may lose, right? It may not be popular in a very swing state.
HUNT: All right. We are unfortunately up against a hard break.
Coming up, we're going to get a live report from Rome. Of course, the funeral for Pope Francis is now just hours away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:58:11]
HUNT: All right. Live pictures of St. Peter's Square the night before Pope Francis is set to be laid to rest.
CNN's Clarissa Ward is live there for us.
Clarissa, set the stage. Tell us what we're all going to see unfold. Will be, of course, basically the middle of the night here on the East Coast. But I'm sure there will be many American Catholics who will be tuning in to watch.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kasie.
Well, we've been here all week, and I can honestly say this is the quietest I have seen St. Peter's Square, 250,000 people, according to the Vatican, passed through the. Basilica over the course of the last three days to pay their last respects, as the Pope Francis was lying in state. But I want to give you a sense of what it looks like behind the scenes, because there's a lot more action over here.
You can see ambulance workers, volunteers, municipality workers, and right over there, this large scaffolding is where the majority of journalists will be broadcasting live from throughout that funeral. It promises to be truly, Kasie, a historic event, according to the Vatican. There are at least 150 government delegations, 51 sitting heads of state, 12 reigning monarchs.
So, you can imagine the level of organization, the level of security. Everybody here will be working through the night to make sure that this historic moment goes off without a hitch, Kasie.
HUNT: It's going to be quite, of course, a historic moment since we get to see this so rarely. And of course, we'll kick off quite a process to pick the next pope.
Clarissa Ward, thank you.
And do be sure to tune in Saturday morning at 3:00 a.m. That's tomorrow. CNN's special live coverage of the pope's funeral.
Jake Tapper is standing by for THE LEAD, which I think is going to have much more coverage from Clarissa Ward and a look ahead to the funeral -- Jake.
