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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Stocks Mixed As U.S. Economy Shrinks Amid Abrupt Trump Policy Shifts; Trump Blaming Biden As Economy Shrinks For First Time Since COVID; Sources: Rubio & Bukele Have Been Directly In Touch About Man Mistakenly Deported; Harris Hours Away From Speech On Trump's First 100 Days. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired May 01, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And while they may be stuck on each other, each head does try to get its own way, according to staffers. They say Angel often wins out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGEL HAMILTON, EAST BAY VIVARIUM EMPLOYEE: But you can see they're both thinking different things. You know, you sometimes you see them fight like one wants to go right, one wants to go left.
ALEX BLANCHERD, EAST BAY VIVARIUM OWNER: Typical king snakes' lifespan can be anywhere from 20 to 30 years. We think these guys will be here just as long.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: This rare reptile occurs only once in 100,000 snake births.
Thanks so much for joining us this afternoon.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
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KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: There's breaking news right here on CNN.
Let's head into THE ARENA. Mike Waltz is ousted as national security adviser, but gets a consolation prize. The president now saying he'll nominate Waltz to be U.N. ambassador. We'll get a first read on how this is all playing out on Capitol Hill, where senators have to decide whether to confirm Waltz to his new role in the wake of Signal-gate.
And amid protests against the mistaken deportation of a Maryland man, a Trump appointed judge issues a first of its kind ruling, saying the presidents use of the Alien Enemies Act to speed deportations is unlawful. Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland will join us with his reaction this hour.
Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt, welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday. As president Trump is shaking up his national security team, it's a
story that's been unfolding in, shall we say, twists and turns all day. Surprise, surprise.
Here's what we know. Some of this is not terribly surprising. Mike Waltz is out as national security advisor. Not surprising because there have been weeks of speculation that he would be the one to get the ax for his leading role in the Signal group chat debacle.
But surprise, the president revealing this in a truth social post just a little while ago. Quote: I am pleased to announce that I will be nominating Mike Waltz to be the next United States ambassador to the United Nations.
I would be willing to bet that Senate Republicans who will have to confirm him didn't see that one coming. A source tells CNN that it had been made clear to Waltz earlier this week that his time as national security advisor had come to an end. Still, he showed up to yesterday's cabinet meeting with a gushing tribute.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE WALTZ, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Mr. President, the last four years, the world experienced a total lack of leadership under -- under Biden. And then we had 100 days of your leadership with -- with respect, with strength.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Another twist this afternoon, the president says he is tapping his secretary of state, Marco Rubio, to do double duty, at least temporarily, and also serve as national security advisor.
Guess who was surprised by that? The woman who speaks on Rubio's behalf at the State Department. She got word of all of this from CNN's Kylie Atwood in the middle of her briefing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMMY BRUCE, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: It is clear that I just heard this from you. I had -- I -- this is -- the magic --
REPORTER: No heads up that this was --
BRUCE: I -- so that is the miracle of modern technology and the social media. So that is an exciting moment here. I think that, as I know, Secretary Rubio, this is a man who is, I think you all know, has worn several hats from day one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Several hats. Just got another really big one.
All right. Our panel is here, and we're also joined by CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the White House. Michael Scherer of "The Atlantic". Jeff Zeleny, let me start with you, because there is some new
reporting that we have here about how all of this came to be. What have you learned?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I mean, it's clear, as you said, Kasie, Mike Waltz has seen his influence wane ever since the scandal broke out. There was no immediate firing, of course, because the president, as we have understood, did not want to sort of give the satisfaction to what he viewed as -- as a magazine, "The Atlantic", and the news media that was out to get them. But it was clear that his influence had waned, not only because of that, but because of some outside agitators as well. Some, loyal MAGA core supporters of the president, Laura Loomer, and others, a conspiracy theorist, essentially went after Mike Waltz.
So that also led to his effective demise, at least inside. And by sending him to the United Nations, at least nominating him for that position, if he is confirmed by the Senate, it certainly takes him out of the proximity of the West Wing and also puts him in a position where the Trump administration and certainly the president, thinks very little of the United Nations, thinks very little of -- of that role.
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But I think the Rubio piece of this, Kasie, is so interesting because it's the latest, example or sign we are seeing of his real ascent inside Trump's inner circle. Their relationship begins about a decade ago right now. They were both running for president, of course, in 2016. But Marco Rubio has gone from being a rival to one of the most trusted advisers in this White House.
Of course, that can always change. But now this is something that he will be doing for the first time since Richard Nixon more than a half century ago, wearing the dual hats of national security advisor as well as the secretary of state.
But those jobs also are at conflict in a sense, the national security adviser is intended to be here at the White House advising the president, coordinating all the agencies, whatnot on threats that we know about and threats that we do not know about. And the secretary of state, of course, is supposed to be the diplomat for the world, the president's envoy, if you will.
So, certainly, more than just wearing several hats, as well as USAID and the acting archivist. He's also wearing some conflicting hats, if you will.
But the president clearly wanted to move this along quickly. The biggest staff shakeup that we have seen. So that's why he announced the Rubio and Waltz departures and arrivals I guess at the same time this afternoon, Kasie.
HUNT: We can't forget that -- that national archivist role of course, jeff extraordinarily has actually a really important job. So, thank you for mentioning that. Thats additionally another hat he wears. Jeff Zeleny at the White House, thank you.
Our panel is here. White House national security correspondent for "The New York Times", David Sanger, Republican pollster, CNN political commentator, Kristen Soltis Anderson, Democratic Congresswoman Sara Jacobs of California, and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Brad Todd.
And of course, we also mentioned Michael Scherer at "The Atlantic".
And, Michael, I want to talk to you. Just big picture. Before we really dig into some of the details here, because of course, it was your editor, Jeffrey Goldberg, who was accidentally added to the group chat on signal. That has led to a lot of this unraveling.
What is your understanding of how it is that Mike Waltz is standing really unraveled? Within the White House here? Because certainly many people I talked to on the hill, including Republicans, will privately say that they thought Pete Hegseth was actually the one who did more damage in this context. But of course, Waltz had the original sin.
MICHAEL SCHERER, REPORTER, THE ATLANTIC: That's right. I mean, both -- both of those men have some responsibility for what happened in that Signal chat, but the difference is that Mike Waltz was on shaky ground with some in the White House even before the Signal-gate scandal took place. You know, he had -- he had sort of alienated other staff members inside, treating himself more like a principal than a staffer. He had -- he had tried to block some people from meetings, had imposed himself on other meetings.
And then he had on top of that this concern from mainly outside the White House, people in the in the MAGA activist world, that he was too hawkish, that his foreign policy vision was not the president's foreign policy vision, and that he had hired people into the National Security Council, who -- who weren't loyal to the president. That was the Laura Loomer visit.
Then Signal gate happens, and that just magnified all these problems. I think his initial spin wasn't his initial response to that wasn't great. You know, by last week when he came into the oval office, I came with Jeffrey Goldberg to meet with the president.
One of the notable things of that encounter was the president had sort of put Signal-gate behind him. He sort of admitted fault of his administration. When we asked him about Waltz, he said, he's fine, he's fine. He was just here. He got beat up over it.
He wasn't really defending him. He acknowledged Hegseth had had some missteps. It was a real contrast to how the president and the administration handled the initial disclosure of those Signals, which was to attack us at "The Atlantic" and to attack Jeffrey personally.
So I think once enough time passed, the president sort of was able to acknowledge the mistakes of his own administration. Waltz's time was -- was just sort of a -- you know, he was he was on the clock.
HUNT: Yeah. It was a really, really remarkable exchange that you all had with him in the oval office.
David Sanger, let me go to you on the second big piece of this, which is who's going to replace Mike Waltz, who's clearly being exiled to New York, right, to go be the U.N. ambassador. And that is Marco Rubio, Jeff Zeleny mentioned the last time this happened was the Nixon administration, of course, and Henry Kissinger.
How did that go? And what do you anticipate here?
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST : Well, it didn't go well. It was in a different era, of course. And Kissinger and Nixon had developed a really close relationship. And one of the big analogues right now, Kasie, is that I think that, as you heard Marco Rubio and the president have actually managed to get along really well and I think this reflects that.
So, there are two problems with holding this job, simultaneously.
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The first is just a physical one. The secretary of state travels around the world, frequently gone for the whole week to Asia or Europe or Africa or Latin America.
And the national security advisor basically lives in the Situation Room running a constant stream in most administrations, not necessarily in this one of policy processes to debate out issues. So the first question is he can't be in two places at one time even with the wonders of using secure video.
The second problem, though, is the one that Jeff alluded to, the national security advisor's job and what makes it one of the most important jobs in Washington is to sort out the competing and frequently different interests and advice of the Pentagon, intelligence analysts, the State Department. So if you're representing the State Department and also playing the arbiter there, there's a sense from all your colleagues that you've constantly got your finger on the lever here to weight the State Department, even if that's not the case.
HUNT: David, is there a sense or do you have the sense that, you know, if he's sending -- he's going to give Mike Waltz another job, but he's clearly sending him away. If Rubio can't be in two places at the same time and he is on the road all the time, does that simply put, open up a vacuum that will allow someone else in the White House to step in, that perhaps the president is more interested in hearing from.
SANGER: Well, it can. Rubio apparently said that he would take this job for up to six months. There had been speculation about other people who could fill it, including Steve Witkoff, who is doing the negotiations with the Middle East, with Russia, with Iran. We're told that Witkoff didn't really want it. He wanted to sort of be at the spear end of the dealmaking here, which I can understand. He's got no national security background. Rubios got lots. He ran, of course, the Senate Foreign Relations committee and served on it for -- for some time.
So there's lots of reasons that Rubio could be a good choice. But there are problems that you are inheriting when you do both. Be interesting to see who Rubio picks as his deputy, because gone in this as well is the number two at the at the National Security Council, Alex Wong. And so we're -- so we are told it is not yet been announced. And if that's the case, Rubio is going to need somebody who can really represent his interests and have the ear of the president.
HUNT: Yeah. So, let's rewind just a little bit and look at how we got here, because there was some writing on the wall ahead of today that Mike Waltz had shall we say, fallen out of favor. There was this video we have yesterday of the president boarding, his -- his plane -- yes, boarding Air Force One. And you can see highlighted there is Mike Waltz walking with other officials and then not getting on the plane being shown to the side, of course.
And then in the Rose Garden today, this was before the announcement came from President Trump on Truth Social that Waltz was being nominated for this U.N. ambassador post. He thanked basically everybody else on his national security team except for Mike Waltz. Watch the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mike did. He took responsibility for it.
Hegseth is doing a great job. He had nothing to do with this. Hegseth -- how do you bring Hegseth into it? He had nothing to do.
Look, look, it's all a witch hunt.
Who's doing a fantastic job, Pete, thank you.
Marco Rubio. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Marco, when I have a problem, I call up Marco. He gets this solved.
I was casting a movie for the CIA, I put this guy in it. Director of the CIA, John Ratcliffe.
Director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard. Tulsi, thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, Brad Todd, obviously you saw that long list there of others. Pete Hegseth, of course, the one who's come under the most fire from the hill and elsewhere for his role in signal gate, among other things. What does this tell you about where the presidents head is and what has the reaction been among Republicans on the Hill?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Mike Waltz is quite popular with Republicans on the Hill. You know, he is one of the few people that sort of transcends that boundary, right? Between the old sort of Cold War Republicans and a newer sort of new right populist Republican that has been Donald Trump has attracted. And that's a pretty big skill. He's a former Green Beret himself. He
has a lot of in-depth knowledge on it. And I think that Mike Waltz remaining in the administration and in the president's orbit is going to be reassuring to people on the Hill.
HUNT: Congresswoman, I -- you know, enlighten us. If you knew Mike Waltz at all when he served with you before he took this current role. B
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But also, I mean, what concerns do you have? I mean, I heard one of your colleagues, Jim Himes, who, of course, a longtime chairman of the intelligence committee, essentially make the argument Brad was making and saying he's a defender of Ukraine, saying it's -- it's not great that we don't have this in this position anymore.
REP. SARA JACOBS (D-CA): Yeah. I served with Mike Waltz on both the armed services and foreign affairs committees. And I agree, he has a lot of respect. In the Republican conference and also across the aisle. But my biggest concern is that Donald Trump thinks this is enough to respond to Signal gate, like I represent the biggest military community in the country, I have to look every day at these military families faces and tell them, look in their eyes and tell them that I'm doing everything I can to keep their kids safe.
When Pete Hegseth literally disclosed operational details before an attack that is really, really concerning to service members safety. And so to me, it's not enough to just move Mike Waltz to the U.N., like Trump needs to fire Pete Hegseth. This is a real slap in the face to our service members and their families.
HUNT: Kristen, how are you looking at all of this as it unfolds today? I realize your perch is of one -- as a -- as a pollster.
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. So, what I'm still trying to discern is how much of this is a direct response to Signal-gate, Trump, sort of not wanting to deal with that fallout. And how much of it is really about where is today's Republican Party on foreign policy? One of the things that I'm always seeing in my data is that you do have older Republicans tend to have more of that Cold War type approach. They believe in a very strong, robust role for America around the world.
And frankly, I think Rubio is another one of those folks that has bridged that divide, we should say, has been of that perspective within the party for some time and yet has gotten in the good graces of Donald Trump, who especially his younger supporters in base, take a much more. We need to be America first. We need to look inward. We should not be out trying to police the world kind of approach.
And so, I'll be curious to see. Does this reflect an actual, real sort of elimination of the more kind of Cold War mindset oriented old school Republicans, or is this more just about Signal-gate?
HUNT: Michael Scherer, before I let you go, can you weigh in on what the point Kristen is making there? And I would also add one of the things I've started to hear as I, you know, I mean, because 2028 is never too far away to be talked about in real time, some of my campaign sources are starting to talk about an emerging kind of how to put it, rivalry, I guess, between J.D. Vance and Marco Rubio. And of course, a lot of this has to do with the very divide that we're talking about.
SCHERER: Well, all this stuff is always very fluid. I mean, it was just a few weeks ago. There were stories about Marco Rubio being sidelined by Witkoff and Elon Musk and other people who are sort of shaping foreign policy and what's going on at the State Department. I do think it was clearly a factor here, but it wasn't the factor. If Mike Waltz had had a better relationship with White House staff and the president, it's very possible you would see the president talking about Mike Waltz like he's talking about Pete Hegseth right now. I mean, both those men obviously have culpability in how that series of events transpired, but the president is fully behind one of them and is sending the other one up to New York City.
So, I do think it's -- the tensions within the president's inner circle around Waltz preexisted that Signal chat and I think were worsened afterwards. I think there was a break in trust. Then you saw Waltz basically lose control of his own personnel. You know, Trump was firing people from the national security staff at the White House without his -- without Waltz's consent. And as of weeks ago, I mean, we wrote a story that published Monday. And we said that Waltz was expected to be out by the end of the year, if not much sooner. And, I mean, it was sooner than we expected, but the writing was definitely on the wall.
HUNT: All right. Michael Scherer, always a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for being here. I hope you'll come back.
And our panel will be back as well. But coming up next here, new CNN reporting from Capitol Hill on whether Mike Waltz can be confirmed by the Senate to be U.N. ambassador. We'll have a live report, and we're going to talk with a lawmaker on the committee that would oversee any confirmation hearings. Senator Chris Van Hollen is here live in THE ARENA.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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HUNT: All right, more now on our breaking news. Mike Waltz, who was reported to leave his role as national security advisor in the coming days, will now be nominated as United Nations ambassador. That is a position that requires Senate confirmation.
Let's get to CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.
Manu, I can only imagine how a confirmation hearing for Mike Waltz might go, considering Signal gate and the public fight over that. What is your sense of the appetite for doing something like that? And how else has this day been playing out for the president's Republican allies, shall we say, on the Hill? MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Look, it's
been a whiplash day for Republicans. And these top members of the Senate Republicans really were blindsided by all this news, including Senate Majority Leader John Thune, who told me he was unaware that Mike Waltz initially was stepping aside for the national security advisor role. He's -- and they certainly weren't aware that he would be installed or nominated to be the next U.N. ambassador for the United States. His confirmation prospects is just too early to know, but given the fact that the Republicans control the Senate, probably very good chance that he gets confirmed unless something comes up.
But what it does do is it brings the discussion about Signal back into the forefront, not just on -- Mike Waltz's use of signal, but also Pete Hegseth. And that's what I heard from so many Democrats in particular, given that it was Hegseth who was talking about military strikes against a Houthis on that unsecured platform.
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And many of them said that the shakeup involving Trump's national security team should not involve Mike Waltz necessarily, but should involve Pete Hegseth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): They're holding the wrong guy accountable. The intentional piece of this was sharing incredibly sensitive information about a strike off of an aircraft carrier, putting pilots at risk.
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): The question is whether the right person is being held accountable. I think there has to be accountability for the mistakes and the errors that have been made. But I think the secretary of defense ought to bear that responsibility.
RAJU: Should there be an accountability for Hegseth?
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-NC): The real problem with it, of course, to your point, is the sharing of at least confidential, if not classified. Information on a -- on a insecure platform or at least a less secure platform than it should have been. I don't know that Mike Waltz is the last person to lose his job.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: What do you think of his confirmation hearing would be like? I mean, considering what we know about Signal gate.
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): I think it would be pretty brutal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And that last comment coming from Senator Mark Warner, really indicating where it's going to be a brutal confirmation hearing for Mike Waltz. He will undoubtedly face a number of questions about his own use of Signal and the like.
But Republicans, for the most part, no one is really raising any alarms at this point. They're -- they've left town, Kasie. We'll see what they have to say when they return on Monday.
HUNT: I was going to say, aren't they lucky that this happened on a Thursday? Smell those jet fumes.
Manu Raju, thanks very much, as always.
Our panel is back.
So, Brad Todd, how thrilled are Republicans or aren't Republicans about spending the next however much time talking about Signal-gate if they have to get this guy confirmed?
TODD: Well, I think Mike Waltz, they're probably thrilled its Mike Waltz is going to be in the chair. There has to be somebody nominated for the U.N. post.
And Mike Waltz is as good as anyone will be on that. He will do a great job at it.
I don't think he'll have any problem getting confirmed. Most Republican senators would rather have Mike Waltz in the Trump administration than a lot of people who might get nominated for the Trump administration. They have a lot of confidence in him.
I think the president still has confidence in him. Thats why he's moving him to this job. I don't really foresee this being very dramatic.
Congresswoman, you were a foreign policy adviser to Hillary Clinton. You worked at the State Department as well. And I want to dig into some of these policy fights as well that have been illuminated here with -- with David sanger. But how do you see? I mean, clearly, Democrats Mark Warner says this hearing is going to be brutal. They're going to be focusing on Pete Hegseth and Signal-gate. You made your point about that.
Do you see any value to having someone like Mike Waltz in this U.N. ambassador post?
JACOBS: Look, I think there are many worse options. He could have chosen, obviously. Given who is currently the secretary of defense, for instance. But, you know, I think to an earlier point that was made, it's not just the Republican Party that is having a generational divide on on foreign policy. It's also the Democratic Party.
And I think for a lot of us younger folks who grew up in the shadow of the forever wars, I was in middle school when September 11th happened. I think a lot of younger people don't want to go back to the Cold War days, when there was fear of nuclear conflict almost all the time, right? Like I think there is a rethinking of what our foreign policy should be on both sides of the aisle. We're seeing it play out in a much more vivid way on the Republican side, because they're in power right now.
But I actually think these are kind of important conversations we need to be having about what our security interests actually are, how we should be playing a role in the world, that this is a multi-polar world now, and we don't just have to play the hegemonic role that we don't really have any more. What kind of multi-polar world do we want, and how should we be shaping that?
HUNT: We talk a lot, actually, about how it tends to come up in other areas more aggressively. But like on health, for example, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And how there is a meeting between the left and the right in this sort of you know, MAHA circle. Do you think there's something like that going on with foreign policy, too? Is that what you're saying?
JACOBS: I mean, I think in many ways, yes. Now, I don't think we exactly agree, like on the left and the right, but I do think there is this new generation of both Republicans and Democrats who really want to rethink some of the sort of things that have been taken for granted as core tenets of our foreign policy.
TODD: I think -- I think the meeting of places that a lot of Democrats want the United States to be a lot less important in the world because they feel guilty about the United States being successful. A lot of Republicans want the United States to be less significant in world affairs, because they're inward-looking, and they -- and they think maybe we spent too much money overseas, that that's almost two things coming together back to back.
But I think on the Republican side, the vast majority of Republicans still want a very strong United States. They want a United States that crushes its enemies, and they want the United States that leads free nations of the world. I think that consensus will come out in a --
ANDERSON: And I think Republicans on the Hill still are very, very, very much behind President Trump. And I think the fact that it's already somebody that they've already voted to confirm, they may not be thrilled with Signal gate, but. I'm with Brad. I don't foresee this being a contentious process.
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SANGER: Just argument a little bit with, some of the premises we've been dealing with here.
First of all, no one wants to go back to the old Cold War, but we are in something now that is so much more complex. And many ways, so much more dangerous. And the old cold war had an element of rhythm to it and understanding. We had two major players to it. And this has many, many. And you saw Waltz, basically take up some new and different positions on that, particularly on Iran.
HUNT: We'll dig into that a little bit later, I hope as well.
All right. Coming up next here, key lawmaker here to react to the breaking national security shakeup in the White House. Senator Chris Van Hollen standing by, live for us. He's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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HUNT: All right. We're back now with more on that major shakeup in the White House. Mike Waltz out as national security advisor and in perhaps as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, he will need to be confirmed by the Senate in a post-Signal-gate world.
Joining us now, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee, which, of course, would oversee the confirmation hearing for the U.N. ambassador nominee, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland.
Senator, I'm very grateful to have you on the show today. Thank you for being here.
I, first, like to just ask you for your reaction to this move -- to Mike Waltz being basically sent to New York, no longer being the national security advisor, and what that says about where we are.
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Sure. Kasie, it's great to be with you.
Look, what we've been seeing in the economic policy space from the Trump administration is total chaos. Tariffs up, tariffs down, the economy going down. And what we're witnessing in the national security space is the similar kind of chaos. This administration just doesn't know where it's going.
Of course, candidate Trump promised that he would end the war in Ukraine on day one. He would end the war in Gaza on day one. Instead, he's thrown the Ukrainian people under the bus. And in Gaza, the hostages have not been returned and we have a humanitarian disaster.
So, this administration, it's not America first, it's America in retreat. And we're just seeing the results of that chaos both at home and abroad.
HUNT: Your colleague Mark Warner used the word brutal when he was asked by my colleague Manu Raju earlier today about a potential confirmation hearing for Mike Waltz.
How do you think a confirmation hearing for Mike Waltz might go? And would you vote for him for that position?
VAN HOLLEN: Well, I look forward to the hearing, but count me as a skeptic. Based on the positions he's taken in the past and also the fact that a lot of these nominees say one thing at the hearing. But when they get into this administration, they do entirely the opposite.
So, for example, Secretary Rubio, when he was here in the senate, he supported a U.S. foreign policy based on values, on human rights, on democracy, on freedom of speech. But as secretary of state, he allowed Elon Musk to mow down AID. And he's essentially become the student- deporter-in-chief, violating students' First Amendment rights simply because they -- they -- they believe in the First Amendment for speech that they like, but not other speech.
So I've been extremely disappointed in what happens to these nominees once they get into the administration. And so, it's -- it's hard to trust what they say at the hearings.
HUNT: Senator, I want to turn to another issue that, of course, you have been so focused on. You traveled to El Salvador to speak with Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the man who was mistakenly deported from -- you, of course, represent him as a senator from Maryland. And now it has been acknowledged by -- or it has been reported, I should say, that there has been a request for him to come back. And El Salvador has said that they couldn't.
Do you believe that the president Trump could get him back if he would just ask for him back?
HUNT: Of course he can. I don't believe a word you say -- you hear about, you know, the Trump administration trying really hard to get them back. And the government of El Salvador saying, no. I met with the vice president of El Salvador.
They said the ball is in America's court. They said the only reason they're holding them is that the Trump administration is paying them. And if you had any doubt about the answer to your question, just ask Donald Trump. Within the last 48 hours, he said he could pick up the phone on the Resolute Desk and call El Salvador to bring Abrego Garcia home.
So, the president of the United States has admitted this. The administration admitted in court that this was a wrongful detention and deportation to this terrible prison. And I do want to emphasize, and I've said this before, this is not all about one man, Abrego Garcia. It's if you violate his constitutional rights, you threaten them for everybody who lives in America.
HUNT: There also was a ruling today from a federal judge, a Trump appointed judge, actually, that the use of the Alien Enemies Act to deport people from Venezuela, who the administration alleges to be part of a gang, is not allowed.
What was your reaction to that? And it only applies to a small slice of the country. It doesn't apply nationwide, this ruling. Should it?
VAN HOLLEN: Well, the logic applies equally no matter what part of the country you're in.
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And the idea is it's a total abuse of the Alien Enemies Act to claim that what we're experiencing here in the country is an invasion, right? Like from a foreign government. And this was a judge who just looked at the facts and said, no, you can't do that.
Look, the Trump administration is trying to dredge up these old laws and misapply them across the board. I mean, they've also done the same thing in these cases where they're detaining students for their speech. It's not a question of whether you like their speech or don't like their speech. They have a right to free speech.
And the Rubio has dredged up this McCarthy era law, the McCarran- Walter Act, trying to claim that these students exercising their speech is somehow a threat to U.S. foreign policy. And it's clearly a ruse simply to squash their free speech rights. So, no matter where you look, this administration is violating statutes and the Constitution, including, by the way, when it comes to tariffs, right?
Abusing their authority under the Emergency Economic Powers Act to do things they're not legally empowered to do.
HUNT: Of course, if you put all of this to Republicans, particularly, you know, strategists or others who are trying to win elections, they will say that in some cases, Democrats are falling into traps they think the Trump administration is setting for them defending illegal immigration. You know, this has been an issue that the Trump administration has been strong on. In polling, people have said they support those policies.
Do you think Democrats are falling into those traps in any way?
VAN HOLLEN: It's never wrong, Kasie, to defend due process and the Constitution, right? It's -- it's Donald Trump who's trying to change the subject while he's facing a 9 to 0 ruling from the Supreme Court to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia.
And again, I want to stress, we're not defending the person. We are defending their rights to due process. And all the surveys I've seen, all the polling I've seen recently shows that the American people stand for protecting people's constitutional rights because they very well understand that it could be them next who sees their rights violated.
So, what I've seen, Kasie, is actually a lot of public support to stand with the Constitution. I'll tell you, my -- many of my Republican Senate colleagues will quietly tell me they're very disturbed about the fact that the Trump administration is thumbing its nose at the federal courts, including a 9 to 0 decision by the Supreme Court.
HUNT: All right. Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you very much for joining us today. I really appreciate your time, sir. I hope you'll come back.
VAN HOLLEN: Of course. Thank you.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, new CNN reporting on who might become the next permanent national security adviser. Sources tell us this man that you see right here is in the running. So, who is Steve Witkoff? What does he believe? We'll dig into that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:47:32]
HUNT: All right. We have been covering May Day protests across the country. Demonstrations against Trump administration policies, including on immigration. They are playing out across the United States.
CNN's Danny Freeman is joining us from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, clearly, amid the crowd there.
Danny, what have you seen?
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kasie, today here in Philadelphia and across the country, a lot of lively crowds were right here in front of city hall and we're actually watching Bernie Sanders, who's been speaking at the microphone for a number of minutes right now. He has been rallying folks here. This event here in Philadelphia, sponsored by the AFL-CIO. He's been speaking very strongly in favor of unions, in favor of workers rights as well, and then the past, I would say, 5 to 10 minutes.
He's been returning to the refrain that we've heard him and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the congressman from New York, speaking about for a number of weeks now. He's talking about the perils and dangers of the oligarchy. And that really tells you a lot about what the tone of these rallies have been, not only here, but across the country. A lot of people here, not just to support unions and labor movements, but also a lot of people here clearly voicing their frustration at President Donald Trump and the Trump administration.
I won't go too far out just because there's a lot of profanity on the signs here, but I'm seeing a lot of signs. I'm a history teacher. This is fascism. I'm seeing signs for due process. Stop Trump and stop the oligarchs.
These are the kind of scenes that we're seeing again, not just here in Philadelphia, but all across the country today, in honor of May Day.
I'll just tell you right now, there are a couple thousand people out here. This is a pretty big crowd when it comes to Philadelphia rallies. I've been to a number of them. Clearly, Bernie Sanders, one of the main draws here, and a lot of people were telling me earlier that the reason they came here is not just to support Bernie Sanders, not just to make their voices heard against the Trump administration, but also to show that they are here. They are not afraid, and they are willing to take to the streets specifically to make their voices heard when it comes to again, protesting the Trump administration.
So, this rally, like I said, you just saw Bernie Sanders. He just walked off the stage. The rally here is going to continue, likely for about an hour or two more. A lot of people here at the moment, and we're expecting more rallies and protests throughout the evening and afternoon again. Not just here, but also across the country, Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Danny Freeman, with whom I have stood in countless crowds listening to Bernie Sanders speak.
[16:50:00]
Our viewers probably don't know that, Danny, but we covered the 2016 Bernie Sanders campaign together.
Thank you to Danny.
Congresswoman, this, of course, at your party. Theres a lot in that crowd, you know, flags for Palestine, but also, of course, anti-Trump. As Danny noted, a lot of people out there for Bernie Sanders.
Which leaders in the Democratic Party do you think have it right, right now in terms of pushing back against Donald Trump?
JACOBS: It's a good question, and I'll be honest, I'm really proud of House Democrats. I think that we have done a really like a -- making sure that were talking about all the issues, holding them accountable in the markups were having for this budget resolution. I like to tell my constituents that were playing zone defense, not man to man, right? So, it's not necessarily each individual Democrat doing everything, but all together. We're pushing back on every front.
HUNT: Of course, the numbers, Kristen Soltis Anderson, in our poll for congressional Democratic leaders not great. It was like 72 percent don't approve, 62 percent don't approve of Republican congressional leaders. It's kind of a mess all around, but really, really bad for Democrats.
This, of course, as you know, one of the things that's a struggle for any party out of power, especially in the wake of a loss, is finding a messenger, especially in our celebrity driven politics. I want to show you something at Wes Moore, who's a much talked about potential 2020 presidential candidate, the favorite of George Clooney. We learned when George Clooney talked to Jake Tapper.
Here's what he had to say this morning on "The View".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST OF "THE VIEW" : Are you going to run?
GOV. WES MOORE (D), MARYLAND: I am -- I am a -- I -- I am not running.
BEHAR: You're not?
MOORE: I'm not running.
BEHAR: It's saying that. You're saying that for sure?
MOORE: I'm not. I'm not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's saying he's not --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Do we believe him?
(LAUGHTER)
ANDERSON: That's the thing you have to say.
HUNT: Barack Obama said it before he ran in 2008.
TODD: He's not running now. But, you know, I'm fine if they all wait and nobody runs. We keep showing footage of those protests. You know, when you're an old hippie, the 1960s never end. And that's what you see when you see these Democrats.
They protest for the same reason college kids like keg parties, because it's cheap fun. And so, I hope they keep doing it. Independents hate protests. They hate Hamas. They hate Bernie Sanders. Bring it on.
ANDERSON: I do think that Democrats are in a tough spot right now, because their own voters are saying, we want more aggressive pushback against the Trump administration. And when you're the party out of power, what does that look like? Does it look like more aggressive tactics? Does it look like an ideological move to the left to fire up the base?
These are the challenges any party out of power is trying to sort through. And Democrats really are.
HUNT: Messy right now.
All right. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:57:19]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back. This just in.
Let's take a look at this picture. This is actually a "Reuters" photograph. That is Mike Waltz, the now outgoing national security advisor on his phone at the cabinet meeting.
Which app do you think he's using underneath the table? You guessed it.
Signal may have played some role in what has happened to him. Although we have discussed at length at this table today, David Sanger, that there was actually a lot more to it. And CNN is now reporting that the person who may be in line, or that the president may want to replace Mike Waltz as Steve Witkoff, who has been his adviser, his emissary multiple times to Russia at this point.
Not clear if Witkoff wants the job at this point, but can you help us understand a little bit of the -- it seems like there's some real policy conflicts between Waltz and Witkoff that may help explain what we saw today.
SANGER: Well, first, one second on Signal, which is the Chinese are so inside our normal phone system, as we learned last year with the Salt Typhoon attacks that government officials have been told, move your unclassified conversations, chats, whatever to Signal. So he's kind of following the National Security Agency's advice.
HUNT: OK, fair enough. Appreciate it.
SANGER: Whether it's rude to go use it in a cabinet meeting is another question.
HUNT: I would just say put a privacy screen on your phone.
SANGER: Yeah.
HUNT: Probably not that complicated.
SANGER: Second -- second lesson he's learned out of this.
Okay, so Waltz and Steve Witkoff.
Mr. Waltz went on face the nation a couple of weeks ago, and he said, when you're dealing with the Iranian nuclear program, we need to get to a position where they can never again move toward building a nuclear weapon. And that means destroying the infrastructure, destroying their missile systems, making sure that that is physically removed.
Wittkopf looked at this and said, Iranians are never going to go along with that. He's a very practical negotiator. He said, I need to actually do something that will result in a deal, and so, he went the other way.
And this has been a continuing argument. There's been an argument over Russia, where again, Waltz is trying to come up with a deal because the president clearly wants a ceasefire. So, he gave Putin just about everything. Putin wanted no entry to NATO for Ukraine, number one. You know, number two, you're going to give up the territory.
So, these are all cases where there have been big differences.
HUNT: And. of course, we will -- we will see as this process continues to play out, you never know the next Truth Social from the president may have someone entirely different in line for this job. One never knows.
Thank you all for being with us today.
And Jake Tapper is standing by for THE LEAD.
Hi, Jake.
