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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
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Aired July 03, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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LAINEY WILSON, SINGER: Thank you. I appreciate that too.
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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: As you just heard there, it is going to be a party. You can see Lainey Wilson perform her new single, "Somewhere Over Laredo" on CNN's Fourth in America special tomorrow night, starting at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
Dana Bash and I are doing it. There may or may not be some glitches there as well.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: I have no doubt if you are involved, that there are going to be glitches involved. Can't wait. Hosted by two of my very favorite people, Boris. That's going to be awesome.
SANCHEZ: Tune in.
KEILAR: Oh, yeah. We will.
And THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
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PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Republicans passed their so-called "Big, Beautiful Bill", now heads to President Trump's desk.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
A major win for Republicans in Congress. Their massive bill to support the president's agenda passes after months of negotiations and fighting. Ahead, what the bill's policies and cuts will mean for Americans across the country.
Plus, is there anything Democrats can do to fight back? After a record-breaking speech by leader Hakeem Jeffries and zero Democratic support, the bill passed anyway.
Representative Debbie Dingell is here to discuss.
(MUSIC) BROWN: Hi, everyone. Kasie Hunt is off. I'm Pamela Brown, and welcome to THE ARENA.
Right now in Washington, the "Big, Beautiful Bill", as it's called, is headed to President Trump's desk. Republicans biggest legislative push of Trump's second term, making it across the finish line after months of negotiating and infighting.
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REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: You guys made an audacious plan. You brought the most comprehensive, complicated piece of legislation, probably arguably in the top 2 or 3 in the history of the Congress, with the smallest margin in U.S. history, which we had for a big chunk of the first 100 days.
And you -- and you put this audacious timeline, you said you're going to pass it out of the House by Memorial Day. I mean, some of you openly laughed at me when I said that back in early February. And then we said we would get it done by July 4th. We beat Memorial Day by four days, and we got this one done a day early. I just want to point out, okay?
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BROWN: The massive bill codifies much of President Trump's agenda, including no taxes on tips, no tax on overtime, increased funding for the military and immigration enforcement. It will also introduce work requirements for Americans who receive Medicaid and food stamps, and it will slash almost $1 trillion in funding for those programs.
President Trump is expected to depart the White House this hour on his way to Iowa. We are, of course, monitoring that, and we'll bring you any comments he makes.
A senior White House official telling us that the president was, quote, omnipresent force behind getting lawmakers on board with the bill.
No surprise that no Democrats voted for it. Here's House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, who said a record speaking for almost nine hours to delay passage of the bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: This reckless Republican budget is an immoral document and everybody should vote no against it because of how it attacks children and seniors, and everyday Americans, and people with disabilities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: My panel is here, along with CNN's Arlette Saenz on Capitol Hill and CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House.
Arlette, to kick it off with you first, a very busy day on Capitol Hill.
What are you hearing after this mega bill passed with a razor thin margin?
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, House Republicans presented President Donald Trump with a victory as they were able to push through his domestic agenda policy bill up here. This vote passed 218 to 214. There were only two Republicans who voted against the president's measure, and now it will head to his desk, beating that July 4th deadline that the president had set to have this signed.
Now, this is really a major feat for House Speaker Mike Johnson and for President Donald Trump, who had pressured GOP lawmakers, some holdouts, to go ahead and support this measure. There were hours of meetings and phone calls, some here overnight at the Capitol, some over at the White House that played out yesterday where they were trying to get lawmakers on board. Sources say that one of the messages President Trump had for these GOP lawmakers was that failure was not an option.
Now, I've caught up with lawmakers over the course of the past 24 hours. One had told me that they believed that the president would be the closer on this bill, and that is, in fact, what has happened.
Now, House Speaker Mike Johnson spoke to reporters shortly after the bill was passed, and he took a bit of a victory lap, saying that this would be a good bill for the American people.
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JOHNSON: I think a lot of the estimations about what this legislation would do in a negative manner to communities in my state or any other, are far overblown. I can tell you that this bill is going to be a great thing for everybody around the country. My constituents, especially.
What's good for Louisiana is good for America. We've got great tax policy here. I think they're going to feel this -- this pretty quickly. We're going to duplicate what we did in the first Trump administration.
Remember, the first two years, y'all heard me say a thousand times, it's objectively true.
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We had one of the greatest economies in the history of the world. And we're going to do that again, except this time much more comprehensively. We did tax cuts and regulatory reform, and that brought about a resurgence of the U.S. economy. That's about -- that's what's going to happen here. It's about to happen on steroids.
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SAENZ: Now, one of the challenges that GOP leaders had faced was trying to ensure that there weren't any changes to this bill, requiring it to go back to the Senate.
They had to stitch together support from those conservatives who were worried about the high cost and spending in this bill, and more moderate members who might have been concerned with Medicaid cuts.
Now, to get to the two Republicans who voted against this bill, that was Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky and Brian Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania.
We caught up very briefly with Massie just after he cast his vote. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Looks like the big bill's going to pass, but it wasn't beautiful enough for me to vote for it.
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SAENZ: Now, Massie had opposed this bill in the first iteration when the House voted back in May, and he's already drawn the ire of President Trump, who has vowed to find a primary opponent to face off against him in 2026.
As for Fitzpatrick, he's quite interesting. He comes from a swing district in Pennsylvania, one of only three Republicans to win districts that former Vice President Kamala Harris won back in the 2024 election. He released a statement after his vote, saying that some of his concerns centered around the steeper cuts to Medicaid, that the Senate bill included.
Now, one big question is how House Republicans are going to sell this bill back at home. Weve already seen Democrats signal that they want to make these Medicaid cuts a big feature of their messaging heading into 2026. That was a lot of what House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries message was, as he held that long speech on the House floor today. But at this moment, House Republicans, Senate Republicans are celebrating the fact that they were able to pass this bill. And now they have the hard work of trying to sell it to their constituents back home.
BROWN: But for today, were seeing a victory lap on Capitol Hill from Speaker Johnson.
And, Kristen, to you. We're going to see a victory lap from President Trump when he speaks tonight in Iowa, right?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Pamela. I mean, he is going to be celebrating. His entire team is celebrating. And just quickly, before we get into the mechanics of how this happened, to Arlette's point, I spoke to a number of White House officials who acknowledged that Democrats have really been ahead on the messaging here, that they have been more focused. These Republicans, the White House officials, on trying to get this bill passed, not so much on the messaging. But there is a belief that once they double down on this public perception, once they start pushing some of the stuff that is in the bill that they believe that their voters will like, that, that could shift. But again, that's the next step here.
But if you look back on how we got to this place, I don't think it is. We can overstate how important this bill is to President Trump and to his White House. They don't just believe that this is going to be the cornerstone of his second term in office. They believe that this is going to be his legacy, that everything in his agenda is wrapped up in this bill, from deportations to no tax on tips.
And that was why they were so adamant that they had to get this done. And talking about how they didn't want this to go back to the senate, they understood how tenuous the ground was that they were on that. If it did go back to the Senate, they could actually lose votes. So that was why they stressed the importance that this had to get done in the house.
And what we saw from these meetings with these House members, excuse me, lawmakers that were at the White House yesterday was promises from president Trump and his team, promises that they would provide executive orders that would help with various issues, including electric vehicles and energy mandates, promises that they could work on Medicaid, that it was going to take three years until this was actually implemented, which would give hospitals time to actually prepare for this, hospitals that rely on Medicaid, and also assuring them that their states that they are all from would still control who actually received Medicaid. Understanding that these social safety nets are one of the biggest issues that anyone is going to have with this bill.
But as you heard there, White House officials, they believe that President Trump was omnipresent in all of this, not just in the sense of threatening to potentially primary various lawmakers, but also in the sense that he was the one making calls. He was the one pushing this. He was also the one trying to sell this through almost a charm offensive at times, and credit where credit is due. He got this through even when at times it seemed like it might be impossible.
BROWN: Yeah, he certainly was on the charm offensive yesterday and seemed to get some of those GOP holdouts on board.
Thank you so much, Kristen Holmes, Arlette Saenz. We appreciate it.
And joining us now to discuss the bill is Alaska's at large Republican Congressman Nick Begich. He voted for the president's legislation.
Congressman, congratulations on the passage of this legislation. I know that we just heard speaker Johnson sort of celebrating what seemed like the potential impossible to do by this point. And it has happened.
What is going through your mind now that this legislation has finally passed and headed to President Trump's desk after several overnight sessions and lots of negotiations in Congress? [16: 10:02]
REP. NICK BEGICH (R-AK): You know, it was a long road to get here. There are a lot of different perspectives in the conference, but I am absolutely thrilled to see this bill pass. You know, there are so many important priorities for our nation here, many that you've talked about already. Nono tax on tips, no tax on overtime, reduce tax pressure for America's seniors, securing our border. The list goes on and on.
In my home state, we're unlocking 30 million acres of mandated oil and gas lease sales for the benefit of the people of Alaska. But really for the entire nation. We want to make sure that we keep inflation pressures down. But the best way to do that is to lower energy costs. And we have the energy that we need to do that. Domestically, Alaska represents nearly half of all the estimated, undiscovered oil and gas potential in the entire nation.
We're unlocking that for the benefit of the people. I'm thrilled to see this bill pass, and I'm looking forward to see the president sign this bill tomorrow on the 4th of July.
BROWN: As you know, Congressman, one of the senators for Alaska, Republican Lisa Murkowski, was a holdout on the president's legislation. But she ultimately decided to back this bill only after securing several carve outs that would lessen the blow of cuts to Medicaid and SNAP, those food stamps is what SNAP is for Alaskans. She told us that she struggled mightily with those components. How is it fair that Alaskans got those carve-outs, but Americans in other states do not?
BEGICH: You know, I think Alaska is a really unique state. When you think about Alaska, just imagine this. We're two and a half times the size of Texas, but have the population of a Dallas suburb. We're very spread out.
Eighty-two percent of Alaskans, or rather Alaskan communities, are not on our road system. When we talk about rural health care in America, Alaska is the most rural state we have. And so, folks can only travel in those communities by boat if available or by plane.
And so, you know, I understand her desire to make some corrections from her perspective for SNAP and Medicaid. That's what she needed to do in order to get to a "yes" on this bill. And she did ultimately vote "yes", and we were able to move this through today on the House side with near unanimous support among the Republican conference.
BROWN: But she had a lot of concern. And even after voting yes, saying that her concern is what it could do to other vulnerable Americans in other states. You know, what do you say to that? Would you have voted for this bill if Murkowski had not secured those carve- outs?
BEGICH: I voted for this bill when it left the House, and I was happy with what we had. I think what's important to recognize when you talk about Medicaid, where there are so many exceptions for the work requirement, which has gotten the most attention, you know, the traditional Medicaid population are untouched in this bill. They continue to be protected under this bill.
Caregivers excluded. Alaskan Natives and American Indians, excluded people who are in counties or boroughs with more than one and a half times the nation's unemployment rate, are excluded, and people who are looking for work or people who want to volunteer for just 20 hours a week, they're all excluded.
And so, this is really been designed to isolate the very small, very small population of folks who are leveraging the system, able to work, but are choosing actively not to, and those folks to them. I say, look, be a part of the solution, be a part of the solution, get a job, look for a job, volunteer, but do something to contribute like the rest of America is contributing to ensure that these programs remain strong and available for the people who truly need them.
BROWN: Critics argue, though, that it's beyond that. It's beyond, you know, the waste and the program that, you know, there's not going to be as much funding for rural hospitals, even with the additional funding in this bill.
You're hearing from hospitals concerned that they're going to have to shut down because of this, that the red tape, the more paperwork people are going to have to fill out, that they're going to slip through the cracks of the Medicaid system. There are those concerns, and they argue that this is taking from the poor, squeezing the most vulnerable to give to the rich.
I mean, there is a analysis done on this version of the bill that the House just passed that found that the top 0.1 percent of earners in the United States, the average annual income gain, would amount to more than $290,000.
When you consider that, how can you argue that this legislation really benefits working class Americans rather than the wealthiest of the wealthy? $290,000 for the wealthiest?
BEGICH: Well, you know, I think that there's there are a lot of numbers that have been flying around from different groups, including the CBO and others.
I think the important thing to understand about this bill is that it increases the take home pay for the average family in America by $10,000, $10,000.
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And that may not seem like a lot to a lot of folks out there, but it's a lot to Americas working families to have that money available to take care of their kids, to make the mortgage payment, to make the car payment. Those things matter to everyday Americans.
BROWN: But do you believe that the 0.1 percent of earners should get a $290,000 in tax benefits here? Are you comfortable with that? BEGICH: Look, the tax bracket for folks in that bracket did not
change. And the taxes from 2017 for every America -- every American did not change, right? If we didn't pass this bill, the average American would see a 68 percent tax increase.
BROWN: I'm not sure if that's accurate.
BEGICH: We need to preserve this to preserve the economy.
BROWN: My producer can tell me in my ear, I don't think it's 68 percent increase. It's a continuation, you're right, of the 2017 Trump tax cuts, for the most part, you know. And of course, there was the addition of no tax on overtime, tips. But I don't think that's right.
And I just want to be clear, the number that I mentioned was from the Penn Wharton budget model that uncovered that statistic. Its' a nonpartisan entity that conducts these analysis. I just want to be transparent with our viewers where that's coming from.
Congressman Nick Begich, thank you so much for your time and happy Fourth to you.
BEGICH: Happy Fourth. Thanks for having me.
BROWN: And my panel joins us now in THE ARENA. CNN contributor and "New York Times" journalist and podcast host, Lulu Garcia-Navarro, CNN political analyst and "The New York Times" White House correspondent Zolan Kanno-Youngs, Democratic strategist Adrienne Elrod, and Republican strategist Matt Gorman.
All right, Matt, I want to get your response to everything happening in Washington today with the passage of this bill and how you heard the congressman there defending it.
MATT GORMAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, first of all, I thought it was notable that the congressman was defending it because, remember, he won by two points in a toss-up district at large Alaska. So that he will be -- if the Democrat who won that seat four years ago runs again, he will be kind of a frontline member. So that's -- that was notable to start.
Number two, step -- stepping back a little bit. It's been a very good two weeks I think for Trump.
BROWN: Absolutely.
GORMAN: I think you look at the Iranian strike. You look at the NATO meeting. You look at also the Iranian -- Iran, Israel ceasefire, down to jobs numbers yesterday and the gas prices lowest since 2021, ending up with this. I think this is probably been the best two weeks he's had of either presidential term.
And so, what does that mean now? The momentum now I think is in his favor. Can he continue? I think he can. But I think in large part this caps a very, very good two weeks for Trump. BROWN: I think there's no question. But how do you think he defended
some of the parts of the bill that Democrats have taken issue with and some Americans? I mean, if you look at the polling, it's not popular for those that know what's in the bill. And that's across the board.
Do you think Republicans have enough strong enough messaging to defend this bill, particularly through the midterms?
GORMAN: Look, I think work requirements, 72 percent of folks favor that. They need a hammer that day in and day out. I think your point was well taken. I think it was Kristen made the point.
I think folks we're far more concerned about passing the bill right now. It's a lot easier for Democrats to attack it. I think their job now is to sell this bill.
And candidly, we know Democrats are energized. We've seen that in special elections throughout the first couple months of this year. Their job now is to sell this to the base, get them out, which they've had trouble doing in elections in the Trump era where Trump is not on the ballot going into next November, that has to be their goal.
And last part of it is we've seen executive orders. They can come and go. Bidens go Trump the first time went. This is extremely important because this puts Trump's agenda into law. It's a lot stickier. Ask Obamacare as the Biden era law, it was more important than anything to get that on the books.
BROWN: Let me bring you in on this, though, because some of the more controversial provisions, like the work requirements on Medicaid and so forth, that's not going to go into effect until late next year.
ADRIENNE ELROD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah.
BROWN: But some of --
ELROD: Conveniently, by the way.
BROWN: But some of the other provisions, like no taxes on overtime, no taxes on tips, that's going to -- that's going to begin soon. So, do you think Republicans, or, I'm sorry, Democrats might have a hard time running against this over the next year?
ELROD: Look, I'll give it to Speaker Johnson and Donald Trump and the Republicans for being masterful in terms of the timing here. But the bottom line is this, I mean, you just laid this out perfectly in your interview that Republicans have had a really hard time messaging on this. They're behind on the messaging because they were so focused on trying to get this passed, whereas Democrats have really had an advantage to go out there and talk about the fact that millions of Americans, 17, roughly 17 million Americans are going to lose health care coverage over this.
And it may not happen imminently, but it will happen, and I guarantee you that it will happen closer to the midterms, even though they're going to try to delay it just because people are going to get ready for it. Hospitals are going to have a hard time getting the funds that they need.
So, you will see these effects before the midterms. Even if Republicans try to design this bill so that you can't.
But the bottom line is what Americans want. They want their health care coverage and anything that impacts health care and their access to quality and affordable health care is something that they're concerned about. And that is something that their ads are being written right now.
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This is -- the one silver lining about this bill getting passed is that we actually Democrats have something to rally around and something to really take in contrast to the American people.
BROWN: Right, because, you know, you can argue about the CBO and its nonpartisan. Republicans are now taking issue with it. But the CBO says that nearly 12 million Americans could lose their health insurance over the next ten years. You know, those stories will be told, right?
How much of a gamble is this? As much of a win as it is for Republicans now, how much of a gamble is it long term?
ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it's definitely a gamble. And also, it's not just work requirements for Medicaid, right? It's also -- in order to enforce and vet those work requirements, you have states that now need to replace their software as well. There's concerns about how actually health facilities will be able to contact different people that are in need of care during that time.
We're already seeing that some health care facilities are closing down in anticipation of these cuts as well. So you could start to see some of the effects of this even before the actual cuts and requirements take effect here.
But, look, I mean, also just the comments that some Republicans have made during these negotiations. I've talked to Democrats that say we already have the content for certain ads that they're going to put out, you know, when it comes to the midterms going on, this does provide a pathway which I think puts even more pressure on House Republicans and the White House sell this.
Thus far, President Trump hasn't really talked about tax cuts as much as the immigration funding that this bill would give here. When I talk to Republicans, they say that really they want to move forward with a focus on the tax cuts to blunt some of the criticism that this will hurt --
BROWN: Is there a danger in that? Because a lot of this is a continuation of tax cuts. And so is there a danger in playing up the tax cuts so much?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: And I mean, I think what you had in that interview is perfect is a perfect example of the problem that Republicans have. If you are explaining you are losing. Is that not the axiom that everyone understands about politics?
Democrats have a very clear message, which is basically there is a number you are going to lose health care. You are -- rich people are benefiting from this. The deficit is going to skyrocket.
What are Republicans saying? Well, there's this number and that number. And actually, I mean, it's a very muddled message. And so, it is going to be hard, I think.
I mean, listen, Donald Trump is a master of political communication. There is no question this is a huge win. There is no question, however, numbers or numbers, people are people, and they see what they see.
KANNO-YOUNGS: And to your point people often feel what they're losing, rather than something that's being extended, right? It's hard. It's hard to resonate that you're gaining something that's actually just a continuation rather than something you're actively losing, that's making your life harder.
BROWN: That's an interesting point. I want to read this little bit from "Washington Post" senior congressional correspondent Paul Kane, and he writes, Congress has lost its ability to focus on basic bills. Once one side thinks its party has full power, an overwhelming amount of attention goes into putting as much as it can into one bill. In baseball parlance, congress now rarely hits singles or doubles, instead waiting to hit a big grand slam.
And what's so interesting here is Republicans have said, we're rolling back some of what Biden did and his in his big legislation during his term. They're rolling back some of this with this -- what they call the big beautiful bill and it does show you just the grip Donald Trump has on the party. I mean, these holdouts went to the White House yesterday and we're so charmed that they came out.
GORMAN: Look, I think two things. I think -- I agree with Adrienne, like this is a big win for Mike Johnson and Trump. And as always, if Trump was going to get this passed, he had to get in the weeds. He had to make calls. He did that.
I think Johnson's been consistently underestimated for his entire speakership has delivered here. But I think I think your point, I think that phenomenon and Paul is a historian of Congress, I think better than almost any reporter out there, you know, starting with the Obama era, you have these larger bills coming together.
And I think with the Obama era, what they saw when Scott Brown won that special election and suddenly, that margin ticked down under 60. You have to get what you can get when you can get it in the margins are there. We saw this again with Biden when you had Sinema and Manchin wanting to do certain things but not other things.
And that carries over to the Trump era. We have a thin margin in the House, the Senate. We have a little bit more, but it's always precarious. You have moderates like Susan Collins and Murkowski and others. You have to get as much as you can when the time is right and your capital is at its highest.
BROWN: All right. Thank you all so much. Stick around.
Up next, inside the Democratic Party, after another big win for President Trump and congressional Republicans. Michigan Congresswoman Debbie Dingell is here live to talk about where her party goes next.
Plus, California Governor Gavin Newsom just added an interesting destination to his summer travel plans. We'll talk about it.
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REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): I have almost 15,000 letters here from -- the governor's office sent me -- of people in Michigan who are scared to death they're going to lose their Medicaid and what it will mean to their families.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That was Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan speaking out against President Trump's domestic policy agenda earlier this week. She joins us now to discuss the very latest on the legislation that just passed today.
Congresswoman Dingell is the chair of the Democratic Policy and Communications Committee. And in that role, leads house Democrats messaging efforts.
Congresswoman, nice to have you on. I know you haven't slept for two days. So thank you. An extra thank you for making the time for us.
What do you think now that that legislation is set to become law?
DINGELL: Well, I suspect the president will sign it tomorrow since he wanted to sign this bill by July 4th. You know, what really scares me, Pam, is that people that are going to be really impacted on this in a very negative way.
I think there's going to be the fear factor of many parents of children who have very serious health care situations, count on Medicaid. Some people that count amidst -- count on Medicaid seniors. It's the longest, largest payer of long-term care in this country, people with disabilities, they don't know what it means.
I think there's a lot of misinformation. People, you know, people who know what's in this bill are opposed to it, 2 to 1. You hear people, I heard it said before, I was right before I was on this show that people support work requirements, except it's not going to -- the work requirements does not impact that many people.
These are very serious cuts, 17 million people are going to lose their health insurance. Millions more are going to pay more when they go to the exchange for affordable care. When they do pay their deductibles, prescription costs are going to go up. Its going to hurt working men and women across this country.
BROWN: Nearly 12 million people will lose their insurance over ten years, according to the CBO. But yeah, there are some serious questions about the real-life impacts here. What is your biggest concern with this bill?
DINGELL: So, Pam, let me just go back to the point you made. Twelve, almost 12 is the Medicaid portion. But there are states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, when the affordable care act passed that the states did wrap around and allowed more people to be able to have access to that exchange, giving them money to support it.
Those programs are being cut. Well, what am I worried about? I'm worried about people are going to lose their health care. I'm worried about people who aren't going to go to the doctor because they simply can't afford it.
We're going to see people back in emergency rooms. We're going to see people die. We're going to see sicker people. I'm worried about kids and veterans and seniors being hungry. We are cutting snap by 20 percent. I'm worried about rural hospitals closing across this country. Some already have.
These are going to impact working men and women's lives across the country. And the other thing I want to say is that many of the tax issues that people are talking about, a senior came up to me last week and said, you have to vote for this bill. I cannot afford to pay taxes on Social Security.
And I said to him, that's not even in this bill. There's a lot of misinformation. The no tax on tips. We want to pass a bill like that, but we want to pass a bill that actually helps the workers. This helps the employers more than it does the workers.
No tax on overtime. These are all issues, but they're complicated and people are not going to see what they think they've been promised.
BROWN: I interviewed Congresswoman McClain earlier from Michigan. I know you know her well. And I asked her about Democrats fears like you just laid out. I mean, you just said, as a result of this legislation passing, people are going to die.
And she said, this is basically fear mongering that Democrats are putting fear over facts. What do you say to that?
DINGELL: Look, Lisa is my friend. We have very honest talks with each other. I have said to her, I want to make sure nobody dies. I want to make sure that nobody's hurt.
So right now, I'm going to -- as this goes into effect, I'm going to be in touch with all of my hospitals, with all of the different social service agencies. When I find somebody that's going to be hurt, I'm going to do everything I can to help those people. So, everybody, I mean, we are just not going to know about a lot of
people that are just not going to go to the doctor anymore. They're going to wait until they're very, very sick and go to an emergency room. And, you know, that's when people are going to die.
And that is real. The Congressional Budget Office is not a partisan group. It is an objective, is a very objective group, and they are the ones that gave that figure of 17 million, which doesn't include the increased costs of the Affordable Care Act or the increased deductibles.
BROWN: I mean, could Democrats have done anything more to prevent this bill from passing? Of course, you had the house minority leader, Hakeem Jeffries, give that marathon speech on the House floor, but that simply just delayed the passage.
DINGELL: What Hakeem did today was to make sure that we didn't have one more night. I have had six all-nighters in the last six weeks where I haven't been to bed, because we keep doing things in the dark of night. So, nobody will see what's happening.
I, you know, I have had I'm not going to give members names away because I want to be able to work with them and still try to help make a difference for people, but they have told me how bad this bill is. They are -- look, I'm going to vote the way I think. I get my leadership mad at me, especially in the committee, when I say I'm going to do this and this is what I have to do.
But when you're caught in that -- when the president is putting pressure on you and breaking your arm and you're having to figure out whether you're going to be in more trouble in a Republican primary without President Trump's backing versus a general election, many of these members really have a hard time.
[16:35:05]
I am just one of those people that thinks I'm going to vote for the people that I represent, and if I -- my leadership --
BROWN: Very quickly. But do you think Democrats have it together with their messaging?
DINGELL: I think we are getting there.
BROWN: Getting there. When do you think you'll get there?
DINGELL: I think that, Hakeem -- well, I think we did very well in this bill. Let's be really honest. We have educated people about what's in this bill and those that know it. It's 2 to 1.
We are trying to get the DNC to coordinate Amy Klobuchar. And I've been coordinating the House and Senate. Hakeem recognizes the role that he plays as the leader, and he's got to be out there more.
We will by the second 100-day roll out a vision of what we need to be doing. We cannot just be anti-Trump. We've got to show people what we're going to do, how we're going to reduce their costs.
By the way, President Trump hasn't reduced the cost in a lot of people's lives or taking care of their insecurities, on housing, et cetera.
So, I'm not going to lie to you and say it's all perfect, but I think we are getting it together between all the different institutions, and we'll win in 2026.
BROWN: Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, hope you get to go and get some sleep now. Thank you so much.
DINGELL: Thank you.
BROWN: And up next, the Supreme Court agrees to wade into the conversation over transgender athletes, setting up a blockbuster ruling on one of the nation's most debated issues.
Plus, the newest indication today that a prominent Democrat is inching closer toward a 2028 White House run.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:41:01]
BROWN: Welcome back.
The issue of transgender rights, now set to appear on the Supreme Court's docket for the second year in a row. The court announcing today that it will take up cases from West Virginia and Idaho over whether states can ban transgender athletes from competing in women's sports. West Virginia's attorney general telling me earlier this morning that he feels confident the high court will uphold his states' ban.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MCCUSKEY (R), WEST VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: This isn't about polling for us. This is about fairness. And the reason is, is so intensely common sense. We're very excited and very bullish on our chances of winning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. The panel is back with us on what is certainly a talker.
I just want to start with looking at the big picture here and take a closer look at some of these cases relating to LGBTQ issues over the last term. The past two months, the court has allowed parents to opt kids out of classes with LGBTQ books, upheld a ban on gender affirming care for kids, and allowed Trump's ban on transgender people in the military.
What does that tell you about the role the Supreme Court is playing in these cultural wars? GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, I think it's right there in the chart which
says that they have a particular point of view on this, and they are willing to basically rule on it. And so, what we're going to see, I think with this case, the very fact that they've taken it is it's just going to follow this exact trajectory.
I think the court's majority has made no secret of the fact that they see these issues as issues of state's rights, in particular, that states will be able to legislate as they see fit. And so, I don't think there's going to be any surprises here. I think the gentleman that you interviewed is right. I think -- I like their chances.
BROWN: Yeah. And the White House is really leaning into this. I think they see it as a winning issue. You saw the administration agree to release those frozen funds to the University of Pennsylvania after the school said it would block trans athletes from female sports and erase the record set by the transgender swimmer, Lia Thomas.
What do you think about that?
KANNO-YOUNGS: It's almost a continuation from the presidential campaign, right? This was something that the Trump campaign was hitting on, right? If you remember during the election, it was hard to escape those ads where they would cite then-Vice President Kamala Harris's answer as well on this issue, attaching her as well to transgender in sports.
And you've seen that even now, President Trump in office has taken that campaign rhetoric and translated it to real policy, too. You're also seeing some universities capitulate, you know, on that issue. And still, you're seeing the Democratic Party rather silent on this issue.
BROWN: So that tease me up for Adrienne.
I want to actually play -- we have some of that ad, that "they them" ad that really became famous during the election. Can we play it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kamala supports transgender sex changes in jail with our money.
AD NARRATOR: Kamala even supports letting biological men compete against our girls in their sports. Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And during the election, Democrats didn't really say much.
ELROD: Yeah, I mean, look, that was, first of all, a little PTSD watching that ad again.
That -- this is an issue that -- this is why it's a problem. This is an issue that every single American, every single parent who has kids in sports, which is a majority I think of parents who have kids when their kids get to a certain age where they can compete in sports, they can all identify with this, whether or not their child is actually competing against a transgender athlete and felt like they were at a disadvantage, or whether or not they think that it could happen.
This is something everyone can identify with. Look, I was obviously, as you know, on the campaign, I think we should have responded more forcefully on that. It was hard to because we were using --
(CROSSTALK)
ELROD: Well, the ad used her word, so that made it difficult. But I think we should at least come back and made it very clear, here's why we're fighting for you. This is not a they/them, Donald Trump is fighting for you. Here's how Donald Trump is not fighting for you, and try to get the focus off the transgender issue and more on working class Americans, and how Democrats are more focused on helping them.
[16:45:01]
I think there are ways we could have done it, because we were just talking about this during the break. That ad was played on NFL football games. It was not just on MSNBC and CNN. It was played on network television. It was on digital. You could not escape the ad. It was on every single day.
And that was a huge problem for us as a close. And it was a smart closing ad for Trump.
GORMAN: Because really, the ad in itself, in its essence, wasn't about they/them. It was about a question of priorities, right? And I think a large part of the criticism of the Biden administration and why I think Republicans see, this is it's a question of who -- what are your priorities? Is it placating certain interest groups, or is it a question of fairness and of women writ large?
ELROD: It's not about that.
GORMAN: Excuse me. But also, you know, Democrats love to tout they're the party of science, the party of truth, the party of facts. And yet they expect, you know, the American people to sit there when a biological man wins a track race or a swim meet by 10 seconds over biological women and expect people to indulge that as fair.
And I think that is where they got crosswise with this. And it's very hard for Democrats to unwind this because let's face it, on the other side, you have Trump sitting there -- and we saw Gavin Newsom try to try to do this earlier this year. You unwind it and suddenly you're siding with Trump. It's a lot harder.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Matt, let me let me just -- I mean, I take your point. I absolutely see what you're getting at.
But if you look at that ad, what is also very clear is that they're showing good Americans, you know, white Americans with a nuclear family, with children, you know, boy and a girl. And they're showing Americans that we should be afraid of that are different in some way. That should be in some way judged. So, there is a lot of subtext to this that isn't --
GORMAN: Wrong.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: There's a lot of --
GORMAN: Watch that ad, there's a lot of Black pastors all around him. So, actually, it's not a white versus black thing. Play the whole ad and you'll see that exact thing, because that was also going towards African American men, Latino men.
That goal of that ad was actually people of color, too.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, I mean, I don't dispute the fact that -- listen, I mean, I think the polling is very clear that most Americans are very uncomfortable with this. But what I will say is that it is also part of the messaging, the reason that Donald Trump is persisting with this, the reason it's become such a big issue for the GOP, even though the transgender community is very small, and that there are not that many people who are in women's sports who are transgender is because it pays such dividends.
BROWN: Yeah, I think the NCAA president said that there were less than ten transgender athletes --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Very animating --
GARCIA-NAVARRO : It's a question of priorities. This is a priority for the GOP, even though it's a really small issue in terms of how it really affects --
ELROD: It's how they try to distract from the real issues that Americans care.
GORMAN: This is a real issue.
BROWN: All right. Up next, you mentioned Governor Gavin Newsom, where he was on this issue. Well, he is heading to South Carolina. So why is that? Could it have something to do with 2028? We'll discuss.
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[16:52:16]
BROWN: 2028 might feel a lifetime away, but for the Democratic presidential hopefuls, it can't come soon enough.
South Carolina Democrats announced California Governor Gavin Newsom will tour across the state next week, making stops and talking to families, the first of many visits.
My panel is back with me.
Hmm, wonder why he's going to South Carolina?
KANNO-YOUNGS: Yeah. That's right. I'm sure it's just for tour, right? No political implications whatsoever.
HUNT: Lovely this time of year.
(CROSSTALK)
GORMAN: I like Charleston.
ELROD: I love South Carolina in the summer.
KANNO-YOUNGS: Yeah. One important thing here, too, South Carolina carries more significance, right, since the last election. And under Biden, it changed in terms of the primary order. So that's why you're probably going to see those who are looking to sort of, you know, get some momentum going for a potential election, go to South Carolina.
But Newsom and really, any Democrat that's looking to emerge as the leader of the party, which is still unclear here, I think needs to figure out something else, which is just what does the party stand for here? What is the unifying message?
Newsom has tried a couple of different strategies, and some of those strategies are at odds with each other, too. You know, you go and you reach out to Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon and try to reach out to the other side, not just moderate Republicans, but really the MAGA wing.
At the same time, other times, you're posing yourself as the main fighter against Donald Trump. I'm thinking of federal deployment to California as well, and standing up to him there.
BROWN: In a lawsuit against Fox.
KANNO-YOUNGS: Right. That's right, that's right.
So -- but what is going to be the message that actually galvanizes a broad coalition of Democratic voters? That's not just a question for Newsom, but the really the broader party.
BROWN: Where does he stand with Democrats right now?
ELROD: No, I think a lot of people like him, and I think in a lot of places, in a lot of to a lot of people, he has sort of been the face of the resistance to Trump. You see, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer here in Washington who are really focused on managing their caucuses, but not being the face of the party, Gavin has stood up. You talked about the National Guard coming into California.
He has really fought back. Look, I think -- I actually kind of disagree. I think it's smart of him to go to South Carolina. I think it's smart of him to have these, you know, divergent conversations, you know, with people he doesn't agree with on most things on his podcast, I look at 2025, Pam, is the year where a lot of Democrats are trying to see what works and what doesn't work. They're trying different things.
I think when we go into the midterms in 2026, we really need to have our act together. We need to have a stronger message. We need to have not just the contrast message. What we're fighting against MAGA extremism, but we also need to have the affirmative message of what we stand for.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think Democrats are a hot mess right now, so sorry, but they are. I mean, it is there is -- no, it is. You know, they do not know what they stand for. It is not clear who is actually the leader of the party. Every senior Democrat that I've talked to feels like a dead man or woman walking. That they have a -- they have --
[16:55:00]
ELROD: I'm not saying to get our act together.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And I'll tell you something else. If you look at what has just happened in New York with Mamdani, that is an absolute warning sign to this party that they are that people are looking for something different. They are desperate for change.
And those old faces that have been around for a while, I'm not sure are going to be the ones to lead Democrats into the next --
ELROD: Can I just push back really quickly on that. I agree with New York, but I also think you have to look at Mikie Sherrill winning the primary in New Jersey. It's not -- we are not just electing, you know, far left progressives in some of these places. We are -- we are electing moderate voters or moderate Democrats who will take us hopefully into victory in the -- in the midterms as well, and the special elections in Virginia.
BROWN: Thank you all for that interesting discussion. Great. All around, all hour.
"THE LEAD" with Dana Bash, in for Jake Tapper, starts after a quick break.
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