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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Trump On Texas Flooding: "Never Seen Anything Like This"; Sources: No. Two At FBI Considering Quitting Amid Epstein Fallout; Trump Predicts "Things Happening" Toward Russia. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired July 11, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:04]

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But Attorney General Ken Paxton, Ken's around here someplace? Hi, Ken. Hi.

And director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, Freeman Martin -- Freeman, thank you very much. You're doing an amazing job.

Texas chief of emergency management, Nim Kidd. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for greeting us, too.

Major General Thomas Suelzer of the Texas military department -- Thomas, great job. Thank you. Really good job.

And many, many other officials and everybody is here. You know, it's amazing I do these things and often you don't have -- you just don't have a turnout like this. Half of government is here. But my administration is doing everything in its power to help Texas.

And I can tell you that. And the governor will be the first to tell you that when the -- when the request was made for the emergency funds, Kristi, I think we gave it within about two minutes, maybe less. And they had everything they needed, right? Right. Immediately. So, we've deployed over 400 1st responders and assisted or enabled more than 1,500 rescues. Amazing, 1,500.

Customs and Border Protection and the U.S. Coast Guard have deployed numerous search and rescue crews. And they're all over the territory and trauma teams.

And beyond this area -- you know, the governor was saying, we have -- we've gone a little bit beyond this area. Oh, there's Dr. Phil. Look at Dr. Phil -- you're looking good, Phil. This is a hell of a situation, isn't it, huh?

FEMA has deployed multiple emergency response units, and FEMA has been really headed by some very good people. We have some good people running FEMA. It's about time, right? We get some good ones. They failed us in North Carolina. But when we got in on January 20th, they fixed it up in no time.

And the Army Corps of Engineers is always around and always strong and brilliant. We're also taking historic action to ensure that such a nightmare never happens again. And we're going to look and see how can a thing like this, they could

say, it's 100 years. Somebody said it's a 500-year event. It doesn't -- we're not going to let a thing like this happen.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right. We have been listening to President Trump in Kerrville, Texas, after he toured the damage from those devastating floods one week ago. He said he spent time visiting with families who lost loved ones, including children, in the floods.

Let's go to Alayna Treene at the White House for more on this. What else do we hear from the president?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, he recounted, Kasie, you know, his first stop in Texas today is he was also in Kerrville, where he met with first responders, you know, towards the debris. He talked a lot and really touted some of the great work that local and federal officials have been doing on the ground.

And, of course, those involved in the rescue and recovery efforts in Texas and in those affected areas. It was moving. When you heard him talking about how him and First Lady Melania Trump met with families, including one family who had lost one child, he said, or maybe two children. And he said, you know, its hard to give. You give them their condolences because essentially, how do you say, you know, you lost a young person a few days ago who was just alive, and now, you know, they were so vibrant. How do you try and console someone after that? So really taking on, of course, a very somber tone.

And then he went on and talked about his great relationship with Texas Governor Greg Abbott, who was also sitting next to him and pointing to a lot of the different officials in the crowd, including Senators Ted Cornyn and Ted Cruz, Rep Chip Roy, whose district was affected by this flood, gave him a big shout out.

But one thing just before we actually cut away from his remarks that I found very notable, Kasie, because I know a big part of his visit here today is in part to show how much the federal government is doing, but also how much the federal agencies that a lot of people are now scrutinizing and questioning whether or not, you know, some of the budget cuts that had taken place in the lead up to this flood could have impacted some of the preparation for it.

He mentioned FEMA, and he essentially said that he believed that FEMA was doing a great job on the ground in Texas. He said that they had failed him. The agency failed the country during the in the aftermath of the Hurricane in North Carolina. Of course, when we first heard the president argue that he would believe that was a time to start considering phasing FEMA out. But he said there's a lot of great people running it now.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because we know that the president has said that his ultimate goal is to try and get rid of, get rid of FEMA and phase it out, essentially trying to put the onus on the states for the job that FEMA does. It's been really unclear in recent days that that's actually something is that is going to continue. Youve heard the president himself, but a lot of his top officials like Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, really sidestepped some of those questions.

So, really interesting that he's praising the work of them today.

HUNT: Right. And we've seen them really take a backseat, relatively speaking. Normally, they -- they tend to be much more front and center from a public relations perspective, in a crisis like this one.

Alayna Treene for us at the White House -- Alayna, thank you very much.

And of course, we did start the top of this hour with that breaking news we were hearing from the president.

[16:05:05]

So welcome to THE ARENA. On this Friday, were going to bring our coverage back to Washington because we have more breaking news coming in. The deputy director of the FBI might be calling it quits.

Sources say that Dan Bongino, remember him, telling people that the fallout from the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files has him thinking about resigning. In a memo that was released on Monday, the Department of Justice announced there was no evidence that Epstein was murdered or that he kept a client list that the DOJ could release.

My panel is here. Well talk about all of this in just a moment. But we're going to start with CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez, who's part of the team that broke this story for us.

Evan, what are we learning about Bongino's thinking here?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, a lot of this today, Kasie, is coming to a head because Dan Bongino did not show up to work today. And that got everyone across the street at the Justice Department, at the White House a little concerned that maybe what he has told people, which was that he was considering resigning, was true, and that he may really be trying to get out.

And a lot of this has come to a head this week. You mentioned the memo on Monday. There was a confrontation at the White House also this week between, you know, Pam Bondi, who's the attorney general. Kash Patel was there. He's the director of the FBI.

And part of it was a discussion of some news stories that have been out there that have indicated that there's some daylight, that there's some -- there's some disagreement behind the scenes between the FBI and the Justice Department. And he denied that he was behind any leaks.

But I'll tell you this. I mean, for months there has been some daylight between the FBI and the Justice Department over this, in part because a lot of people blame Bondi for having this entire debacle sort of like become as big as it has. You remember that back in February, she did that event at the White House where she invited social media influencers, MAGA influencers, to come and get these binders with documents that, it turns out, had been out for years. And so, there's been a lot of resentment about that. The fact that she built up expectations that end the justice department has had to bring down.

And so, we do know, however, that that statement that you read earlier in, in the introduction there just now was signed off on by Bongino, by Kash Patel, by the leadership of the Justice Department.

And so, when you see Todd Blanche on social media today, responding to Laura Loomer, this is the level of fighting we have here. Now, you know, he's telling the truth that everybody was on board with releasing the document that you saw on Monday. What he's not addressing, though, is that there is plenty of daylight behind the scenes between the two sides of Pennsylvania Avenue, the one at the FBI and the other, the Justice Department, over how this entire thing has blown up and the mess that its created for the president and for the White House.

HUNT: Some trouble in paradise.

PEREZ: Trouble in paradise.

HUNT: Whatever you want to call it. Evan Perez, thank you for your great reporting. I really appreciate it.

Our panel is here in THE ARENA. National political reporter for "The Washington Post", Sabrina Rodriguez; White House correspondent for "The New York Times", author of the new book on the 2024 election that we're going to dive into in a bit, Tyler Pager is here. We have CNN political commentator, former DNC senior adviser, Xochitl Hinojosa, and Republican strategist Lance Trover.

We're also joined by CNN national security correspondent and former FBI agent Josh Campbell.

And, Josh, let me start with you here on on sort of your take on the FBI piece of this. And their apparent disagreement with the Justice Department. What do you make of it all? Like, how would you kind of translate Evan's reporting for us from inside that building?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SEECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is really interesting. I mean, one of the criticisms that we heard about Dan Bongino when his name was first floated as deputy director, it was not only the past peddling of conspiracy theories, but also lack of any experience within the FBI.

I mean, for those who don't know, the deputy director in the FBI and my judgment is the hardest job in the bureau because you're literally managing all of the operations on a day-to-day basis in the weeds. You have to know what is going on, but you also have to know how the Justice Department itself works.

And look, it's not uncommon for there to be friction between the FBI and the DOJ. I saw it often on investigations and cases and, you know, major decisions. But at the end of the day, the DOJ is your boss. I mean, frequently in meetings, you would hear people at DOJ tell FBI people, hang on a second, let me get you a copy of the organizational chart of the DOJ. You'll see that we're here. You're down here.

And so, he may be experiencing some of that here with, you know, clashing with others.

[16:10:00]

And then the last thing I'll note also is that, you know, this is a case that it appears to be someone who, you know, is perhaps throwing bricks at the organization outside when he was on the outside, calling the FBI corrupt and saying all of these things. But then when you get in the organization, you actually see how it really works. I think he's probably realizing that a lot of the conspiracy theories we've heard about the bureau, which a lot of people have heard, a lot of people have believed because they've been repeated simply aren't true. And so there has to be a lot of frustration there for him. I would imagine.

HUNT: So you say that that he maybe realized that they simply aren't true. And I do take your point from a broad perspective, and I really appreciate your perspective on the job. But in the case of this, Epstein situation, I mean, isn't this -- I mean, isn't he on the side of MAGA people who believe that the Justice Department is covering something up? Isn't that the root of the problem?

CAMPBELL: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's hard to get inside of his head. I mean, obviously, he was someone in the past who was saying that, you know, this is very suspicious. But then when he was actually interviewed, you know, recently, he said the look I looked at the at the video. Epstein killed himself.

So again, we don't know what he really believes, but he is in a jam here because of the fact that he had been, you know, saying all of these things about the organization kind of spreading some of these, these questions about what was really happening with Jeffrey Epstein. And now he's realizing that the people that were following him that made up this massive audience of, you know, podcast, people that would listen in because of what he was saying and generating high ratings, they're very unhappy that he's not delivering on what he said before.

So again, I don't know what he actually believes about, you know, looking at the information. But from all I've heard from people inside the FBI, what Pam Bondi and others were making it out to be, that there's this massive conspiracy out there simply isn't the case. You're never going to convince all of those folks otherwise, because we're talking about a sensitive investigation here that involves child sexual abuse.

And so, a lot of the evidence itself won't be -- it won't be released. And so those questions are going to linger for a long time.

What Bongino does, whether he actually stays, you know, sticks with it or says, that's it, I'm done. I'm enough of this pressure. We shall see. But you just look at the comments on his social media feed. You have a lot of people that purported to listen to his podcast before who have essentially turned on him.

HUNT: Yeah.

And, Xochitl Hinojosa, you, in addition to working at the DNC, spent a lot of your career at the Justice Department like, this is a wild state of affairs right now that the deputy director of the FBI, who is part of this podcast universe, like, ends up with this job, is now basically threatening to walk or telling people that he's thinking about walking, doesn't show up to work on Friday because he disagrees with what the attorney general has done over the Jeffrey Epstein case.

I mean, what do you make of all of it?

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So being a podcaster is very different than being FBI director. I would say that being a podcaster does not make you qualified to be an FBI director or a deputy FBI director. Being a deputy FBI director, he was right. You have to run the department or the. FBI every single day and deal with the attorney general. The attorney general is your boss.

I will say that the rank and file at the FBI have always had a problem with Bongino, because normally, the deputy director is someone who rises through the ranks of the FBI. In this instance, this is a person who is loyal to Donald Trump, not loyal to the FBI, not -- doesn't understand the way investigations work. I don't actually even know whether he can read a case file, whether or not he understands the rules of the department on when you make investigations public, when you don't, how to open an investigation, how to conduct investigation, and how to close an investigation.

So, you have heard within the FBI, some resistance to bringing on Bongino. They all wanted a career deputy FBI director, someone like Paul Obey, who understood the FBI.

And what I find interesting, it's not only the director of the FBI arguing with the attorney general. It is the deputy director. And it's not even on an investigative step. These are on files that he has access to, that they all have access to. And the fallout. And obviously the political fallout, which the FBI should not be reacting to in instead.

And so, I also find interesting is if you're the deputy FBI director, you shouldn't be out of pocket. I mean, the fact that he knows -- he's nowhere to be found, he's not showing up to work. There are major issues in this country. National security issues. And the deputy FBI director needs to be in a SCIF talking about them, not hiding out.

HUNT: Okay, so let's flash back to why and how Dan Bongino talked about this. Jeffrey Epstein situation before he found himself in the role that he is in now as the deputy FBI director. And it helps illustrate why this is such an explosion inside MAGA world.

Let's watch these comments. Flash back to the winter, February of 2025. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN BONGINO, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: The Jeffrey Epstein case, you do not know all the details of this thing, I promise. There are a lot of really obvious -- obviously powerful people. This part, you know, but the specific names we may not. I'm not ever going to let this story go because of what I heard from a source about Bill Clinton on a plane with Jeffrey Epstein, I'm not letting it go ever, ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[16:15:06]

HUNT: So, I'm not letting it go, ever, he says in February.

So, let's flash forward to May, okay? Dan Bongino is now the deputy director of the FBI. Kash Patel is the director of the FBI, and they're talking to Maria Bartiromo. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS HOST: You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. People don't believe it.

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion. But as someone who has worked as a public defender, as a prosecutor who's been in that prison system, who's been in the metropolitan detention center, who's been in segregated housing, you know, a suicide when you see one. And that's what that was.

BONGINO: He killed himself. Again, you want me to -- I've seen the whole file. He killed himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, Tyler Pager, he now says, okay, I've seen it all. I've seen the whole file. And this is what happens.

Pam Bondi goes out in public and says as much. And now there's this giant blowup. Because the White House thinks that Kash Patel and Dan Bongino are leaking information about the attorney general and this entire case. How did we get here?

TYLER PAGER, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things just to sort of put this in perspective is the difference between being inside government and outside government. And now that these individuals have access to power and information, some of the theories that they have spread before they have gotten into government are coming back to hurt them with their base.

And I think this is something that we have seen across the board when it comes to the Trump administration, and it's not a uniquely Republican problem. It's something that a lot of politicians, when they're outsiders, they can speak openly and freely about their thoughts.

But once you have the power, your base, your supporters are expecting you to deliver what you promised. And particularly for someone like Dan Bongino, who has spent many years talking about this particular case and promising and now not delivering what his base wanted or what he was suggesting he could see and deliver for them, there's frustration.

And so, I think this is something that Trump is going to have to deal with as he's brought in some of these more unconventional characters into his government.

HUNT: Unconventional. I hate that word.

PAGER: And they, you know, part of his appeal to, you know, the manosphere and the Joe Rogans of the world and, and the success he had on the campaign trail derived from his association with some of these individuals. And as they get into government, they're finding it's not as clear cut and easy as they once said it would be outside of government.

HUNT: I mean, Lance Trover, isn't this a monster that Donald Trump basically created for himself?

LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, look, this is not something you want to be talking about the Friday afternoon. I think they'd rather be talking about Texas. Obviously, the FBI did a very exhaustive search on this. They re-investigated and went through this was very exhaustive on their part.

What I find interesting in all of this is there seems to be two different levels of -- there's MAGA world, who's not happy about the results of what they put out there, but it seems to me this Bongino issue is more about the handling situation between him and -- he and Bondi. I've not seen anywhere that said, Dan Bongino disagrees with what he put out there.

In fact, the CNN story says today that when he saw the video, he's like, he liked it because that was definitive proof that he didn't kill himself. And that's what I find interesting, is no one's saying that they disagree with what they put out there. It's more about the handling.

HUNT: It seems to be about them perhaps wanting to release more of the information, Sabrina, and not necessarily a disagreement about what that information would show.

SABRINA RODRIGUEZ, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Absolutely, Kasie. But I think one of the problems here is you can't take it back. You know, when you've been stoking these conspiracy theories for years now, now you're in this position where, okay, you've put out the memo, you have come out on TV, multiple key administration officials are out talking about this, but people don't want to move on. And that's the problem with conspiracy theories in general.

I mean, we're still talking about JFK files today, 60-plus years later. So, this isn't something that is going to be resolved for the president or for these officials just because they come out now and say it, people are going to keep talking about it. This is something that is on TikTok all the time on X. I mean, people have profited off of this and getting to peddle these conspiracy theories. So it's very hard to control the narrative now, once you field it.

HUNT: Entirely --

HINOJOSA: And one last thing on this is that when you were attorney general and talking to several of them dating back -- Garland, Barr, Sessions, et cetera., one of the things I heard, the Justice Department is one of the hardest parts about being attorney general is when your base ends up going after you, and every attorney general in recent history has had their base upset with them for some reason, and that is a reality I don't think that they realize, and Bondi is certainly getting a taste of it now, but it's something every A.G. has had to deal with.

HUNT: Governing is a lot harder than campaigning.

HINOJOSA: Governing is hard.

HUNT: Yeah.

All right. Josh Campbell, I want to thank you very much for your contributions. And of course, we said thank you to Evan earlier as well. Really appreciate you guys both.

All right. Coming up next here, would you call a U.S. president if you happened upon their phone number? One of the people sitting at our table today did just that, and we will tell you what happened when Joe Biden actually answered the phone.

[16:20:02]

But first, what Ukraine's president is now saying about shipments of U.S. weapons after another deadly attack by Russia as President Trump pledges a major statement on the war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Russian drones hit a maternity hospital in Ukraine overnight.

TRUMP: I know. You'll be -- you'll be seeing things happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We've got a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin, if you want to know the truth. He's very nice all the time, but it turns out to be meaningless. He's killing too many people. So were sending some defensive weapons to Ukraine.

[16:25:02]

And I've approved that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So that's surprise announcement came earlier this week. Now, we know a little bit about what he approved.

In an interview with NBC News, President Trump said this, quote, "We're sending weapons to NATO, and NATO is paying for those weapons 100 percent. We're going to be sending Patriots to NATO and the NATO will distribute that presumably Patriot missiles. He also said he was disappointed in Russia and teased that he would make a major statement on Monday".

Joining our panel is Jill Dougherty, CNN's former Moscow bureau chief and the author of the new book, "My Russia: What I Saw Inside the Kremlin".

Jill, thanks so much for being here. So let's start with kind of what this means, big picture. You, of course, also have the sanctions situation working its way through congress.

But does this actually seem like a situation where the president has shifted more aggressively in opposition to Vladimir Putin is actually realizing that it's not working or not?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FORMER MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to obviously jump into his head and know exactly what he's thinking about this. But if you judge by what the president has said, he is angry at Putin, or at least he is disappointed, and he's used profanity to make that point.

So, what he said is that they are going to -- the U.S. will be providing defensive weapons, and now we get the hint in that NBC interview about what he might talk about on Monday.

So, what did he say? Okay. United States sells weapons or gives weapons in some fashion to NATO, and NATO pays for it.

But I think there are a lot of questions. You know, NATO doesn't buy weapons. The countries that are members of NATO buy weapons. And the United States is part of NATO.

So, does that mean that the United States is going to chip in on this? Do you see where I'm going? I mean, if its 100 percent NATO, U.S. is part of NATO. Does the U.S. pay?

This may be clarified, but I think the imprecision that the president often uses on things like this is confusing. So -- but I do think overall, you have the president of the United States increasingly showing that he is frustrated with Putin and that he wants to provide some type of help militarily to Ukraine.

Jill, when -- when Trump says that things are going to be happening toward Russia, which is a very vague statement. I mean, what do you think the Kremlin hears when he says that?

DOUGHERTY: Well, if you judge by the spokesperson for President Putin, they say, you know, they were kind of they were reacting first to the profanity a few days ago. But essentially what they're saying is there's a lot of stuff out there. And in fact, the foreign minister talked about fake news, et cetera. So, I think they look at what Trump says. Obviously, they analyze it very closely. But as I was saying, Mr. Trump is not a precise, legalistic speaker. So, the kremlin has to take that and then look at what concretely the United States is doing.

And there are these two things, weapons and then sanctions, because you also have Lindsey Graham's bill up on Capitol Hill moving forward. It was kind of stuck for a while. And those sanctions could be quite strong against other countries like India, et cetera., who trade with or buy oil from Russia.

So, we'll have to see, you know, concretely what happens and what is released on Monday.

HUNT: So, Tyler Pager, you and your coauthors obtained Trump at a fundraiser. Audio of him speaking at a fundraiser about Moscow. I want to play a little bit of that for our audience and ask you about it. Let's watch.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRUMP: With Putin, I said, "If you go into Ukraine, I'm going to bomb the shit out of Moscow. I'm telling you, I have no choice. The public wants, the public, the public."

So he goes like, "I don't believe you." I said -- he said, "No way." And I said, "Way." And then he goes like, "I don't believe you." But the truth is, he believed me 10 percent. I told you this. He believed me 10 percent.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

HUNT: So, is the president saying there that? Is he basically taking credit for -- for Putin not invading Ukraine until he was no longer in office? I mean, what do you make of that?

PAGER: Yeah. I think it's part of his evidence that Putin would not have invaded Ukraine had he been president. It's unclear the veracity of what he's saying, whether he did actually say that to Putin or is just bragging about it to donors, but it's part of his larger attitude toward foreign policy, where he feels that, you know, he can control what other people do, and he just needs to, you know, sort of issue these bellicose threats. Weve seen him do that in office now.

And it's interesting to see how his relationship with Putin, particularly, has changed over the last several months, as he feels like he has not solved this war that he promised to solve within 24 hours on the campaign trail.

HUNT: Twenty-four hours, indeed.

All right. Jill dougherty, thank you very much for your expertise. I really appreciate it. Thanks very much for being here.

Our panel is going to stick around. Coming up next, behind the scenes of two famous conversations between

some of the world's most powerful people, including what Donald Trump said to Barack Obama during this moment earlier this year. And what the president told Kamala Harris when she called to concede the election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:17]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Biden White House is insisting this afternoon that President Biden is indeed fit to lead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The growing number of Democratic lawmakers call for President Biden to drop out of the 2024 race.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Donald Trump just moments ago, was evacuated from a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: You see him raise his fist and mouthed to the crowd. It seemed the words fight.

BLITZER: President Biden just announced that he's dropping out of the 2024 presidential race and publicly endorsing Vice President Kamala Harris.

TRUMP: Nothing will slow us and no one will ever stop us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Remember that that all was actually real life, like that actually, all happened one year ago. I mean, we were in the middle of what was possibly the single most politically consequential month in recent memory. There was, of course, all the fallout from the president's -- then president's debate performance. President Biden, his eventual exit from the race, then the Republican nominating convention, and then, of course, almost one year to the day ago, that assassination attempt on then candidate Donald Trump's life.

So, three top political reporters, one of whom is on our panel today, are revealing new details from all of those events and more. Their new book, "2024: How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America," is out now.

And of course, Tyler Pager is one of those three esteemed political reporters, friends of the show. All of you.

Congratulations on the book. You really bring us kind of behind the scenes and into places that we didn't have the ability to see, when all of those events were unfolding, kind of one after the other, after the other. And of course, it starts with Biden going to the debate stage.

And you write about a memo from senior Biden aides, essentially arguing to him that he should go. He should step onto that debate stage. Anita Dunn was one of those. She thought scheduling an early -- earlier debate could work to his advantage. They brought the recommendation to Biden.

They said, you'll be able to reach the widest audience possible before were deep in the summer months with the conventions, Olympics, family vacations, the earlier you able to beat, the better so the American people can see you standing next to Trump and showing the strength of your leadership compared to Trump's weakness and chaos.

Now, this, of course, looks like a terrible plan in hindsight. But why does it get written I think is my question in the first place. I mean, is there a division inside Biden world where one side has to convince the other side that this is what they should do? Are they trying to convince the president, like what is going on?

PAGER: Yeah. So, this is a memo that's written because they are making a significant change to the way that presidential debates are conducted. Usually, you defer to the Commission on Presidential Debates, a nonpartisan group that organizes debates for the presidential and vice presidents.

HUNT: Long hated group.

PAGER: Yes. Criticized by all, but they are sort of the convening body for the last few decades of these debates, and they happen in September and October before the election. And given the, you know, changes to early voting and the media landscape, the Biden officials felt that that was too late to participate in those debates.

They also had challenges with the commission from 2020 as it related to COVID protocols. Some might remember Donald Trump showed up to the debate with COVID, and there was concerns that he spread it to Biden. So that was all part of the backstory here. But so what the aides were advising Biden was that he should disband -- he should withdraw from this commission and set up debates on his own with CNN, and in part because they felt they needed to shake up the race.

The Biden argument had long been once it's a two-man race, Biden versus Trump, people, the coalition that Biden won with in 2020 will come back to him, and they felt they needed some early jolt of energy and activity. Partly it was a fundraising thing. They needed to raise more money. They were behind their fundraising goals. And also, they wanted to change the narrative.

And as you read from the memo, Kasie, they felt they needed to expose him to the largest possible audience to convince the American people he was capable of running again. And it was in fact true that he was running against Trump.

The last thing I'll say is, what's interesting is when you talk to voters during that time period, a lot of people just didn't believe it. They couldn't believe that Biden and Trump were actually headed toward a rematch. And so, the Biden officials wanted to prove to the American people that you have a choice here. It's either Biden or Trump. HUNT: You are going to be confronted potentially with Trump again.

But, Xochitl, at the end of the day, this was a huge like, you know, massive miscalculation, right? We don't have to say, you know, we don't have to repeat that. Thats what happened.

But I mean, does it show that that these officials really thought that President Biden was totally up to four more years? I mean, is that, like what this shows like, do they really think that? Like --

HINOJOSA: I don't think so. I was at the Justice Department, so I was not talking to them about their strategy last year. But what I will say is, when I was at the DNC in 2020, when he was running the first time, he was, the Biden officials did not want him to debate.

I mean, a lot of times and the people closest to Biden, they don't want him to go out and potentially have a gaffe. They know that those -- that that is very likely for him to do. And so, I think that they look for these moments that are as controlled as possible to show that he has energy and that they can go ahead and reassure the base that he can run.

That's what they did with the State of the Union following the Hur report. They needed something big to show strength from Biden. They believe that if they could control the narrative and not have it, my guess is not have it as close to the election in case there was a gaffe -- gaffe. There's enough room between June and November that he could potentially recover from said gaffe, is -- that was probably the best strategy, knowing that he would have to debate at some time.

HUNT: Right.

PAGER: And just -- that's definitely part of what some advisers were hoping that they would have more lag time. But also, you know, one of the interesting things based on the book that we found out is that, you Joe Biden's aides, that inner circle of people, the Mike Donilons of the world, they felt there was no choice.

But he had to debate some people outside that inner circle, some donors, some campaign officials did not want Biden to debate. His inner circle felt he had no choice but to do so.

HUNT: So, of course, a big part of this, Tyler, is the level of control that Bidens aides try to exert over him, right? Like they wanted to put him out in this particular setting. They wanted to prepare him for it, but they really wanted to control almost every other piece of his environment.

And one of the more interesting things, and this happened to you because, of course, you all talked to Donald Trump for this book at some length, is my understanding. Here was what happened when you tried to reach out to Biden.

So, Joe Biden's aides declined. You write to make the president available for an interview reached directly on his cell phone on March 25th, Biden said he would be willing to speak for this book the next day. The next morning, he answered, and he said he was running late to catch a train. He said he had a very negative view of Trump's second term. His first public comments about his successor since leaving office.

But after the first call, Biden's aides repeatedly called and texted you. Tyler Pager, who was the reporter on the phone after the second call, his aides blocked the reporters calls to the former president, and two days later, a message from Verizon wireless replaced Bidens voicemail, quote, the number you dialed has been changed, disconnected or is no longer in service.

So, he wanted to talk to you, but you got shut down.

PAGER: I mean, that's what he told me. I -- as you said, Kasie, we had had a -- my colleague Josh Dorsey had an extensive interview with Donald Trump. We thought it was incredibly important that all the principals involved in these campaigns have an opportunity to speak to us for the book, which we sought to write the definitive and comprehensive story of the 2024 election. How can you do that without -- with not talking to the people involved?

Biden's aide said it would conflict with his memoir that he's working on. I didn't think that was a particularly good excuse. So I got in touch with the president, and he said that the former president at that point, again, this is March 2025, and he said he was willing to talk. And it seemed after that brief call, it was sort of a classic Joe Biden moment in which he's waiting to get on Amtrak, that he was open to continuing that conversation later.

Again, he told me to call him back. And so I did. As I tried to follow up. That's when my access was blocked from him.

HUNT: I mean, Lance Trover in a world where Donald Trump, I mean, Donald Trump can often be reached on his cell phone. I mean, many reporters in town have his number, and he seems to speak fairly, fairly freely.

TROVER: Yeah, I know, and as an operative, somebody who's worked on campaigns, it's like your worst nightmare, right?

(LAUGHTER)

TROVER: When you're like, oh, yeah, here's my phone number. Please call me anytime. I mean, that's the worst thing possible. I was thinking about this, though, going back to you were talking earlier about, you know, when you get in government versus politics, there's also when you get in government, you get in the White House and the trappings of power.

And I think that's what we saw with a lot of the people around Joe Biden, because nobody wanted to step up and say what everybody else in America was seeing and saying, you shouldn't run for office again.

HUNT: Sabrina, brief last word.

RODRIGUEZ: I think we can't emphasize that enough, though. I mean, the biggest failure of last year was not listening to voters. We kept hearing in poll after poll anyone who was out in America. I spent the whole year on the campaign trail. Everyone was either in disbelief that he was running or felt like, how do we not have other options? How is this the rematch that we're getting? So, I think that's really a big takeaway. Listen to voters.

HUNT: Yeah, for sure.

All right. Coming up next here, as President Trump visits flood ravaged central Texas, there are new questions about the future of FEMA and its role in disaster response. The former lieutenant governor of Louisiana, Mitch Landrieu, here to discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:49:10]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back to THE ARENA. President Donald Trump set to depart Texas shortly after touring damage from those deadly floods.

To talk more about this, I want to bring in the former Democratic mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrieu. He led the city's recovery from Hurricane Katrina as an official there at the time.

Mr. Mayor, always grateful to see you.

MITCH LANDRIEU, FORMER NEW ORLEANS MAYOR: Good to see you.

HUNT: I'd really like to get your perspective on what exactly is going on with preparedness here in Texas. We have not seen FEMA kind of take the lead the way they often do. The president praised federal efforts in his appearance in Texas today, but I'm just really interested to know what you think could have happened to reduce the seriousness of the -- of the impacts, the number of people who died or are missing, if it would have been possible for that -- for officials to have done anything

[16:50:l0]

LANDRIEU: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Two things. One, we're coming up on the 20th anniversary of Katrina, where we lost 1,800 people. So, the pain lasts a very, very long time, and I can't really imagine the pain that the parents have gone through for the loss of all these precious children.

I'm glad the presidents there. It's a good thing that he is there.

Right away, you think about the difference in how he's treated Texas with North Carolina. And of course, California, and the big message here is that when catastrophic events happen, the federal government represented by the president has to show up and the might and the weight of the federal government that's lean and mean and well connected has to do everything they can to make sure things like this don't happen.

And when they do, they get there and help as much as they can, which is why it's really important that we fund the National Weather Service. It's important that we have a robust FEMA. It's important that the Corps of Engineers and the National Guard are all present and working in communion with the governor and the local officials. That's when it works well.

Something broke down here. I don't know how soon it is to start talking about that, but at some point in time to make sure this never happens again or to make sure that you're better prepared for, again, it's very important that we figure out where the breakdown was. But I can tell you this, that it only works well when the federal, state and local authorities are in constant communication when they're coordinating, when we understand command and control. And something was missing here.

The governor's comments, I think about comparing this to a football game sounded really tone deaf to me, and I'm hoping that they can really kind of come together and try to start to heal in Texas, because up to this point, it sounds like a very, very, very difficult task. And they got to figure out what went wrong.

HUNT: There have been a lot of questions about the red tape that Kristi Noem department of homeland security added she had apparently personally signed off on sending help here. It was a cost saving measure. How much impact do you think that had?

LANDRIEU: Well, I don't -- I don't really know, so it's hard to comment. I can only tell you this that when you're well-organized and when FEMA is working the way it's supposed to, when they're coordinating with the governor's office of homeland security, when the governor's office of homeland security is coordinating with the local county officials, they're in a much, much better chance.

This idea of returning FEMA to the states and then cutting all the funding and then cutting the funding for the National Weather Service because it's waste, fraud and abuse, people should stop that nonsense. when catastrophic events happen, that local communities can't respond to, the federal governments got to be there. They got to be there early. They've got to step up to the plate and they've got to be good partners for a long time.

This is a just an awful, tragic event, and I think that you always do a postmortem on these things to make sure that you don't repeat the mistakes. But one of the things we already know is true is that full and robust funding for the federal authorities is really critically important. So, they ought to stop this DOGE nonsense. And they ought -- and they ought to focus on how to get better faster so that we don't lose more lives.

HUNT: All right. Mitch Landrieu, very grateful to have you here on the show, however briefly. I really do hope you'll come back soon. We'd love to talk more.

All right.

LANDRIEU: Thanks. And God bless all the folks in Texas. Our thoughts are with you.

HUNT: God bless them indeed.

All right. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:58:00]

HUNT: Forty years ago this summer, rock stars Bob Geldof, Bono, Sting and more performed at a landmark event to raise money for famine relief in Africa. A new CNN original series looks at how it came together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was 25 year old kids, working class kids trying to change something so huge intercontinental and that energy was naive in many ways.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's something about pop music, rock music, whatever you want to call it, it is inherently working class because it comes from nothing. I was born in a tenement slum in the outskirts of Glasgow. That element doesn't go away. We have empathy, you know, we feel things. That's why we write things. That's why we create things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: "Live Aid: When Rock'n'roll Took on the World" premieres at Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only on CNN.

I sort of can't believe that this was 40 years ago, but I guess we don't actually -- this is a remarkably young panel, summer Friday.

Do you -- do you remember? I mean, these rock stars, I will say, I mean, Bono has obviously gone on to quite the career in humanitarian work. You know, cool. It's still relevant today.

TROVER: I love it, I love it. I mean, I'm a big fan of music and rock star, and so I love that to keep going. I'm all for it. I love the Stones. Keep touring. I love --

HUNT: It's great.

TROVER: Yeah, they don't stop.

HUNT: Absolutely.

Hey, Jake, are you there?

TAPPER: I'm here.

HUNT: Are you old enough to have seen quiet --

TAPPER: Oh, be quiet. Be quiet. That's mean. (LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: So, I was 16 when this happened. It played at JFK Stadium in Philadelphia. And one thing that that you might not know is that Bob Geldof I think, he was kind of forced to let our local favorite band, the Hooters, play at Live Aid. But they did a fantastic job, and I'm glad. And it's a -- the stadium doesn't exist anymore. 1992 it was destroyed, but yes, I remember I think it's fair to say I remember Live Aid.

HUNT: Amazing. Well, have a wonderful show today, and I'm glad we had someone who remembers it because, you know, I'm 40 this year, just like Live Aid.

TAPPER: That's not nice. And you can always come to grandpa. I'm always here with the memories. Thanks, Kasie. We'll see you back in THE ARENA next week.