Return to Transcripts main page

CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Handling Of Epstein Files Pits Trump Against His MAGA Base; Trump Threatens Russia With "Severe" Tariffs; Obama: Dems Need "To Just Toughen Up" To Fight Trump. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired July 14, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: So really, the sky's the limit here. It could be a lot more.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: What do you do with a Martian rock? You put it in glass in your living room so people can admire it. I don't --

KEILAR: Yeah, or you can admire it. Just walk by it every day and say, wow, that's awesome that I own this thing.

SANCHEZ: Also a meteorite. Like, how did it wind up here? Did somebody like an alien drop it? Like who knows?

KEILAR: Yeah, let's hope that's exactly what did not happen.

THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.

(MUSIC)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's Donald Trump versus MAGA.

Will anger over Jeffrey Epstein split the president from his base?

Let's head into THE ARENA.

President Trump fumes at FBI leadership as Vice President Vance tries to play mediator. All of it over Jeffrey Epstein, the story dividing MAGA like no other before it.

Plus, President Trump promises new weapons for Ukraine and teases new sanctions for Russia. Senator Chris Coons of the Foreign Relations Committee is here to discuss.

And then, as Democrats struggle to find their footing in a second Trump era, Barack Obama has some advice ahead. Why the former president says his party needs to toughen up.

Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Monday.

Right now, the Jeffrey Epstein MAGA monster that President Trump himself created has turned on him. The MAGA media universe is simply not buying what the Trump Justice Department is trying to sell them. In that memo sent last week that says there's no evidence Epstein was murdered or that he had a client list that could be released, trying to douse this particular conspiracy has created an unprecedented credibility crisis for the president with his own supporters.

And it has Attorney General Pam Bondi at odds with her own FBI director, Kash Patel and Deputy Director Dan Bongino. He, of course, the hugely popular podcaster whose own supporters have turned on him for essentially failing what's become a MAGA warrior loyalty test.

And now sources tell CNN that President Trump spent much of the weekend fuming at FBI leadership over their handling of the story, even as Vice President J.D. Vance fielded calls from everyone involved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did, I spoke to him today. Dan Bongino, very good guy. I've known him a long time. I've done his show many, many times, and he sounded terrific, actually. No. I think he's in good shape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was President Trump this weekend defending Bongino. Sources say that his relationship with the White House has become untenable.

Bongino didn't show up to work on Friday, and sources say that he's implied that either he or Attorney General Pam Bondi would have to go. In a very lengthy post on social media, the president urged his supporters to, quote, "let Pam Bondi do her job". She's great, he also basically begged for the story to go away, writing, quote, "Let's not waste time and energy on Jeffrey Epstein. Somebody that nobody cares about."

Well, that is a switch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, HOST, THE MEGYN KJELLY SHOW: Make some noise if you care about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.

(CHEERS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He promised them, so he needs to do it. No matter who's on them. We need to release the Epstein files.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they're going to maybe give us pieces and maybe not the whole thing, and think that that's going to suffice. And I don't think people are going to be quiet about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I say, come on, Donald, give us those files.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: How many of you are satisfied? You can -- you can clap satisfied with the results of the Epstein investigation? Clap.

(BOOS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That all at a conservative conference that played out just this Friday.

Now we do have just in to CNN, sources say that Dan Bongino is back at work today. So we'll have to dig into what that means with our panel.

Our panel is here along with CNN's senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes.

Kristen, what are your sources telling you about how the president is feeling about all of this and how he's dealing with -- you know, it's his own house and its divided.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right, Kasie. And one thing to keep in mind here is that even though the president was upset with FBI Director Kash Patel and Dan Bongino over the weekend, I am told by a number of sources that they don't want this to be the end of Dan Bongino.

Does anyone believe that Bongino is going to be in the administration in this role for a long period of time? Probably not particularly given the fact that Bongino himself has said in various interviews that he actually doesn't like this job all that much. We know he had a lucrative career with his podcast before he joined the administration, and so the idea is that he -- right now, he is back at work.

But what President Trump, I'm told, doesn't want, he doesn't want this to be the ending. He doesn't want it to look as though his team is fractured.

[16:05:001]

He doesn't want his team to be fractured.

And what he really wants out of all of this is that all three of them, Kash Patel, Pam Bondi, and Dan Bongino, kind of present somewhat, if they can, a united front on this issue. Now, it seems like that's easier said than done. But one thing we do know is that the vice president spent much of the weekend on the phone with all three of these leaders having conversations about how exactly they could make it work, trying to be a peacemaker, trying to figure out how to get Dan back into the FBI on Monday, which it appears he was able to do.

And I talked to a number of sources this morning who said they believe that Dan's mindset between Friday and Monday shifted significantly, that he kind of seemed like he was coming on board with this idea that he was not going to resign because what he had done is he had threatened to resign. He had told people he was considering leaving his post over a blowup that he had with the attorney general.

Now, it's been very clear. One thing is certain, President Trump is standing at this time by Attorney General Pam Bondi. He made that clear on social media, but he's also made that clear privately. He has said that he thinks she's a great attorney general, that he supports her. So, all of this is playing out in real time. And to be clear, the fact that Bongino showed up for work here, that doesn't mean anything in terms of his future as part of the administration.

But what it does mean is that President Trump wanted him there. He wanted this not to be a Dan Bongino angrily resigning over the attorney general, Pam Bondi, and her handling of the Epstein files. And it appears that he got that, at least thus far.

HUNT: All right. Kristen Holmes at the White House for us -- Kristen, thank you very much for that.

Our panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN contributor, "New York Times" journalist and podcast host Lulu Garcia-Navarro, CNN political commentator, Republican strategist and pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson, CNN senior political commentator, former Trump campaign adviser David Urban, and former South Carolina Democratic Congressman Joe Cunningham.

Thank you all for being here. Great to see you.

David, I got to start with you on this because, wow, there was a lot over the weekend. The president now basically trying to convince everybody, don't worry about it. You don't care about it anymore, after he spent a year getting people to care about it.

DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm not so sure that's going to work out for him, but we'll see. He does have the ability to kind of control the narrative. What I do think in the story, what Kristen was talking about, there, Bongino may have woken up and realized that he wasn't in the box at the World Cup, right, with the president. He wasn't mentioned in the lengthy tweet that the president, a lengthy truth posting. The president put out and maybe the vice president reminded him that he is so successful in his podcasting career because of the current president.

And you know, you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you. And so, if I was Dan Bongino, I would have been, you know, he's not really negotiating from a place of power when you're kind of taking a whack at the boss on something like that.

And so, listen, I think people the base, the MAGA base, rightfully so, they, you know, the president and this administration campaigned on transparency and, you know, you know, breaking up the grip of the deep state, the FBI and DOJ on lots of these types of investigations. And so, you know, now they're called to kind of answer for it and put out everything that's in this file.

And I think the problem is there's nothing in the file or the things that are in the file are classified or they're, you know, kind of, you know, underage sexual predator kind of things. You can't put out. Theres triple hearsay. There are lots of things in there that aren't fit for publication.

And they've got this big mess on their desk and don't know what to do with it. I think that the attorney general, when she passed out those notebooks at the beginning, may have stepped in it a bit by leading on that, there's something else to follow when I don't think there's a lot more to follow here.

HUNT: Yeah, I mean, she was so definitive that. Right. Like, I have this list on my desk and then they turn around and do this. Let's watch a little bit of what. So Charlie Kirk, of course, of Turning Point USA. Most of what we saw at the beginning, there was people who attended this conference booing or cheering. When asked, et cetera.

So, Charlie Kirk came out today singing a slightly different tune than what we had heard from him even late last week. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE KIRK, HOST, THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW: I'm going to trust my friends, Kash Patel, Dan Bongino, my friend Pam Bondi, all these guys. I'm going to -- Todd Blanche. I'm going to trust them to solve it. Ball's in their court I think that there was plenty of, let's say, speeches that were directed towards this topic this last weekend, so we don't need to spend our valuable time on this program relitigating it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Interesting.

URBAN: He probably got a call from the president saying, hey, what are you doing? You exist because of me, right? I don't think Charlie Kirk's a unique generational talent, I think he's a creation of Donald Trump and Donald Trump can, you know, like the old bill, he said, I brought you into this world. I can take you out, right?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You can switch it on and off, though. I mean, this is --

URBAN: But, Lulu, I think they got him wound up, the base wound up. This is the thing. I mean, when you spend so much time talking about an issue.

[16:10:01]

And by the way, this is an issue on the left as well. I mean, this is a guy who was a bad guy. And I agree that if there's more to be known, we should know it. He was a bad, bad dude.

But the right has spent so much time talking about this Donald Trump and all of these figures here. Now that it is very hard to say, like, oh, I trust them, you know, now they've got the keys to the kingdom. And if you're not going to show us what it is that you've got, then people are going to rightly ask, why not?

URBAN: Show your work, right?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah.

URBAN: Like many professors. HUNT: Well, and let's watch. There was an attendee and, Kristen, I'm

interested to hear you weigh in on this. An attendee at Turning Point who spoke with Steve Bannon about this. And you can -- you can hear exactly what Lulu was just laying out in this exchange. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTENDEE: In 2016, we trusted the plan with Trump. But now Trump has become the deep state. The exact thing he -- we voted him in.

BANNON: Why -- why -- why do you say -- why do you say he's -- why do you say he's become the deep state?

ATTENDEE: What is more deep state than covering up for pedophiles?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: I mean, Kristen, what do you make of that?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, Donald Trump has a very significant hold on the Republican Party. And I think anybody that thinks this is like the end of Donald Trump's hold on the GOP is wrong. I have been over the last 10 years asked constantly, is this going to be the thing? And it's never the thing.

The reason why I hold out the idea that this could be more significant than any of the other sort of ideological things Donald Trump has done, where he has pushed his party into uncomfortable territory. Oh my goodness, he wants them to pass this bill former Republican Party of days gone by would never have passed it. Well, they do anyways. Those kinds of things. The ideological piece is never enough. Donald Trump is able to push people to uncomfortable places there.

But because this is about this attribute of trust, and Donald Trump always thrives as the outsider. And this issue has him as the insider --

HUNT: Covering --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: That very pictures of him with this man in many different settings. And you have his former ally, Elon Musk, going full bore on his very powerful platform X talking about this relationship that Donald Trump had with this man.

And so, you know, there are legitimate questions. Is Donald Trump doing this because there's no "there" there? Or is he doing that to protect himself?

URBAN: Lulu, do you believe Elon Musk now, all of a sudden? I -- listen -- I'm saying --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: No. I'm just saying that this is the problem that the president is facing.

HUNT: Well, so speaking of this dynamic that you've just underscored, let's watch what Hakeem Jeffries had to say today. And this one, congressman, is for you. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): The American people deserve to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as it relates to this whole sordid Jeffrey Epstein matter. Democrats didn't put the Jeffrey Epstein thing into the public domain. This was a conspiracy that Donald Trump, Pam Bondi and these MAGA extremists have been fanning the flames of for the last several years. And now the chickens are coming home to roost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Now, all of a sudden, Democrats would love to know what are in those Epstein files.

JOE CUNNINGHAM, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: I mean, he is definitely capitalizing on it. And I agree, it's not the end of the president, but its self-inflicted damage. You know?

And, you know, in politics, my dad always had a Shakespeare quote for everything. And he said, politics, you know, not a furnace for your foe so hot that doth singe yourself, and Republicans been --

URBAN: Shakespeare.

HUNT: I think this is Shakespeare --

CUNNINGHAM: For years -- mark it down. But for years, you know, for a long time we've been -- we've been hearing Republicans bang on this and bang on this and cooking this thing up. And now, it's come home to roost, just like Hakeem said.

HUNT: So, so, David Urban, I mean, do you think that Trump has put an end to this base? I mean, we clearly are seeing things shift in the wake of the weekend.

URBAN: Now, listen, there's going to be more, you know, there's the narrative that we've got a new story today in the Oval, weapons for Ukraine. Right. Good. Good story there. Tomorrow, he's going to Pennsylvania $70 billion in investment for A.I. and energy. This is going to be -- they're going to be story after story this week.

So, it's not going to be an empty news. You know they're not going to be a day that goes by with an empty news cycle to kind of give it legs. But listen, the Twitterverse, the MAGA verse, the people out there, the Charlie Kirk's Turning Points, the Steve Bannons, their listeners, their readers, the people that that give them power are still going to want to know because they want to hold the powerful accountable. That's what this is about.

This is about accountability. And the Trump campaign ran on let's hold the deep state, right, accountable for their actions. This looks like the Republicans are now covering up for the rich and powerful, something which they ran on. And I think you have to kind of you have to show the work. If there's

nothing there, put it out. Say we have nothing. This is all -- there's a whole bunch of nothing. I -- what Hakeem Jeffries said, I think is true, right? We should, we should -- we deserve to all here. And maybe -- maybe he'll keep that for the -- we can show that quote again we're talking about Biden and the autopen. Maybe that too.

HUNT: We are going to touch on the autopen later in the show. But speaking of this, so this idea of trust that Kristen was talking about as well, and are you covering up for the rich and powerful who's being held accountable for this?

I want to show you a little bit more of Steve Bannon's war room podcast, which he did from the turning point conference on Friday. He talked about the potential electoral consequences for the Republican Party, for Trump's MAGA base, if, in fact, they don't do something differently in this scenario.

Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, HOST, BANNON'S WARROOM: It's not about just a pedophile ring and all that. This is about who governs us, right? And that's why it's not going to go away. For this to go away, you're going to lose 10 percent of the MAGA movement. If we lose 10 percent of the MAGA movement right now, we ain't -- we're going to lose 40 seats in '26.

We're going to lose the president. We don't even have to steal it, which is going to try to do in '28, because they're going to sit there and they go. They've disheartened the hardest core populist nationalist. That's always been who governs us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: What do you think of that, Kristen?

SOLTIS ANDERSON: Yeah, I do think when you're headed into a midterm election where things like base turnout are more important than they are in general elections, where turnout is very high, you don't want to lose any portion of your base. I think it's unlikely that there are pieces of this MAGA base where suddenly going to decide to go vote for Democratic candidates, but interestingly, we've been talking about the Elon Musk of it all.

I asked voters in some recent polling who would you vote for in the midterm, Republican or Democrat? Republicans actually slightly ahead on that question, even though we've talked about, oh, the Big, Beautiful Bill is going to doom Republicans. They're still in good shape, I think, heading into that midterm over a year from now.

But when we add the America Party in as an option, it doesn't do very well. But suddenly, Republicans lead is gone. Just a couple of points here and there on the edges. But if this is a game of inches to try to win the House or hang on to the Senate, I mean, those are the --

HUNT: So you started polling Elon's third party idea.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: We have.

HUNT: Oh, that's fascinating. We're going to have to talk more about that. We have to take a break. But I would really like to know more.

All right. Coming up next here, President Trump says that Ukraine is going to get a new batch of American weapons as he threatens Russia with new sanctions. Senator Chris Coons will be here to discuss.

Plus, former President Barack Obama has some new advice for his party. And let's just say it sounds different from when he said this at the DNC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: There's the childish nicknames, the crazy conspiracy theories, this weird obsession with crowd sizes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:56]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm disappointed in President Putin because I thought we would have had a deal two months ago, but it doesn't seem to get there. So based on that, we're going to be doing secondary tariffs. If we don't have a deal in 50 days. It's very simple. And they'll be at 100 percent. We're going to make top of the line weapons and they'll be sent to NATO.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: President Donald Trump announcing the United States will send billions of dollars worth of military equipment through NATO and to Ukraine to use in the country's war with Russia and threatening Russia with, quote, very severe tariffs if it doesn't agree to a ceasefire within 50 days.

Let's bring in CNNs chief global affairs correspondent, Matthew Chance, live for us from Moscow.

Matthew, thanks so much for being here. How significant is this announcement? And I mean, is there anything left for the United States to tariff coming from Russia at this point?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: No. You know, I'm not sure, Kasie, that the tariff threat, which will be imposed in 50 days if there's not a peace deal. Of course, to end the Ukraine war, you know, is going to be that significant for the Russians?

I mean, first of all, you know, Russia doesn't do a lot of trade with the United States anyway. I mean, I briefly looked at the figures. It's just over $2 billion in the past year, which, you know, is really just a tiny fraction of Russia's trade with other countries and the U.S. trade with Russia. And so, that's not important.

The secondary sanctions are much more significant because that could mean sanctioning countries that do trade with Russia, notably India and China. That buy a lot of their energy, their oil and gas from Russia. I mean, that would obviously be massive if it were to be 100 percent sanctions on India and China, but it wouldn't just disrupt Russia. Of course. It would disrupt the global economy if the United States did that.

And so, the reasons that those countries haven't already been sanctioned for their trade with Russia are the same reasons that they may not be sanctioned in the future as well.

I think there's a broader problem with sanctions and Russia, the country is already one of the most sanctioned countries in the world. You know, going back before 2014 and the annexation of Crimea and other issues as well. It's, you know, had to deal with raft upon raft of international sanctions from the United States, from others as well. But it's got a very resilient economy, and it's managed to sort of survive despite of all that.

And more importantly, Russia hasn't changed its policies, whether it's in Ukraine, whether it was in Syria, whether it was in other places because of sanctions.

And, you know, there's very little reason sitting here tonight to think that Russia would, would, would back off Ukraine because of another U.S. threat of yet more sanctions against it -- Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Matthew Chance for us -- Matthew, thank you very much for that.

And the Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelenskyy now thanking President Trump for striking this agreement with NATO and saying that Ukraine is also working on major defense deals with the United States.

[16:25:08]

Joining us now to discuss Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, who is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, very grateful to have you here on the show. Thank you very much for coming on.

I want to start with --

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Thanks, Kasie.

HUNT: Of course, with these Patriot missiles, because that's part of this deal that the president has announced. You have obviously been a vocal supporter of Ukraine in this conflict with Russia. Do you think President Trump deserves credit for doing this? It's been at the top of the Ukrainian wish list for quite some time. COONS: Absolutely. Look, I am hopeful that President Trump is finally

getting clarity that it is Putin who is the major barrier to peace, not Zelenskyy. I'll remind you, Trump campaign promising he would end the war in Ukraine on day one. And here we are, six months, almost seven months into his presidency. And frankly, he's been on again, off again on whether he will continue to support Ukraine.

We just had a freeze in recent weeks on sending additional weapons that were approved and funded under the previous administration, so I'm relieved if, in fact, president Trump is now going to support selling weapons to the Europeans who are going to invest the money to then transfer them to Ukraine.

Night after night after night, Putin and the Russian military are pounding civilian targets deep inside Ukraine. So this couldn't come any sooner. And it's desperately needed. And I'm hopeful that the bipartisan bill in the Senate that I co-sponsor, along with more than 80 others, that would threaten additional sanctions on the countries who are fueling Russia's war machine by buying its cheap oil, will also move ahead in the weeks coming.

HUNT: Well, so speaking of that, senator, and I want to be clear, this is reporting that's coming in from "Politico". Although its reporters on Capitol Hill, I'm sure Manu Raju was in the in the scrum somewhere. But apparently the majority leader, John Thune, said that he's going to hold off on advancing that sanctions bill for now. He says it sounds like the president is going to attempt to do some of this on his own, and he seems to want to get -- give some space for that. He says if at some point, the president concludes it makes sense, he needs it in the negotiations to move the bill, we'll do it. We'll be ready to go.

Do you think this is the right move?

COONS: Well, Kasie, look, there's very few things in the senate today that get more than 50 or 60 votes. There are 84 co-sponsors of this bill. A reminder that support for Ukraine in their ongoing war against Russia's aggression is broadly bipartisan. So, I hope that Leader Thune will reconsider and put the bill on the floor, give us a chance to show that we support Ukraine and give President Trump another tool that he can use to threaten President Putin.

We've seen a tragic pattern here where Trump shows some resolve, says he's going to toughen up and strongly support Ukraine. And then he has a call with Putin and he backs down. I think it's important for all of us in Congress to show that we continue to support Ukraine.

HUNT: Fair enough. Sir, I do want to I want to change gears because there also was some additional breaking news from the Supreme Court this afternoon that I wanted to get your reaction to the court said this afternoon that President Trump can proceed with plans for mass layoffs at the Department of Education. What's your reaction to that?

COONS: Look, just last week, there were 1,300 laid off from our state department, both foreign service officers and civil service officers, folks who have dedicated their careers and their lives to serving in dangerous places, to protecting the American people and protecting our national interest.

This further action by the Supreme Court, clearing the way for President Trump to go ahead and slash the department of education, is a disheartening, disappointing ruling. There are millions of Americans with disabled children who count on the federal department of education to be the guarantor of civil rights.

There are tens of millions of Americans whose student loans are managed by the department of education. And in my home state of Delaware, like so many others, it is federal department of education funds that help with quality education where there are racial disparities. So, this is not an encouraging development.

HUNT: Sir, finally, President Biden gave an interview to "The New York Times" where he defended his use of the autopen.

Do you think it's productive for him to be talking about that at this stage?

COONS: Look, I missed the story today, but my folks just updated me on it.

[16:30:00]

Apparently, there were Republicans suggesting that somehow President Biden didn't make the decisions, didn't sign off on all the pardons that happened at the end of his administration. I think squabbling over whether he personally signed every single one or knowingly approved every single one isn't particularly constructive. He clearly made those decisions. I would have to ask whether President Trump signed every one of the hundreds and hundreds of pardons that he issued for folks who used violence against police officers in the Capitol on January 6th.

HUNT: All right. Senator Chris, thanks very much for the time today, sir. I really appreciate it.

COONS: Thank you, Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Coming up here in THE ARENA, six months into Donald Trump's second term, former President Barack Obama has some tough talk for Democrats. The former Obama chief strategist, David Axelrod, will be here to discuss.

Plus, Trump administration vows to widen its immigration crackdown even as a federal judge orders them to stop arresting people in L.A. without probable cause.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, BORDER CZAR: And Tom Homan isn't going anywhere. Tom Homan isn't shutting up. Tom Homan going to run the biggest deportation operation this country has ever seen. Take it to the bank.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:45]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back.

Former President Barack Obama has a blunt message for his fellow Democrats, quote, "just toughen up". Stepping out for his first fundraising appearance since the Democrats 2024 election loss, the former president had some tough love as his party continues to struggle to counter President Trump's agenda.

He told donors this over the weekend, quote, "I think it's going to require a little bit less navel gazing and a little less whining and being in fetal positions," Obama said, according to excerpts of his remarks exclusively obtained by CNN. "And it's going to require Democrats to just toughen up."

CNN's chief political analyst, former senior adviser to President Obama, David Axelrod, joins us now.

Axe, it's always great to see you. Thank you so much for coming on.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you.

HUNT: What do you make of the former president doing this in this way and doing it now?

AXELROD: Well, it's telling that he did it at a fundraiser for the Democratic National Committee, that was set up to support candidates, particularly the two gubernatorial candidates in New Jersey and Virginia, Mikie Sherrill and Spanberger in Virginia.

And so, I mean, if you read through all of it, I think part of what he's saying is the way that you the way you resist is by electing people who are going to pursue a different policy. And, you know, so toughen up and you know, stop navel gazing and so on means focus on the task at hand. And, you know, he talked very specifically about that.

The thing I found most interesting about it, Kasie, was there were a couple of lines in there. He said, stop looking for the quick fix. Stop looking for the messiah. You have great candidates running races right now. Support these candidates.

And, you know, there's been a lot of discussion about why isn't he out more? I think his view and I've had these discussions with him in the past, is that there are always new leaders, and you need to lift up these new leaders, and these new leaders have to lead. And it is not -- it is not appropriate or wise to look back and say, well, you come back and do it again, or you be the and that, you know, in a sense that was to me an explanation for why he's picked his shots and why he has sort of he's been a little circumspect and not out there constantly because he believes that there are voices within the Democratic Party who can step up and lead at this point and into the future. HUNT: Well, you know, David, it's interesting you picked up on on that

because that that also really stuck out to me, especially the use of the word messiah. I mean, because Obama himself was often treated like that, right, in the Democratic Party. And we've increasingly seen that our politics are driven by singular figures more than they're driven by a party. Or, you know, people don't trust the parties as much. Right?

Obama had a hold over the Democratic Party in a way. He was able to bring voters in to the Democratic Party in a way that others have simply not been able to.

Is there a world where, well, it's kind of easy for him to say that?

AXELROD: Well, there is -- I mean, I think that's a fair commentary, but I think it's also instructive to look back at that race in 2008, because one of the great appeals of Barack Obama was that he was willing to be flinty eyed about criticizing the politics of Washington writ large. And he didn't excuse Democrats from that.

And I think we're in a similar period now when what people are looking for are leaders who are willing to square up with the -- not just the failures of Donald Trump, which are, you know, very well-known and, you know, current. But also the things that led people to Donald Trump, the fact that so many working people voted for him, including Black and Hispanic voters.

[16:40:00]

And they're looking for someone to say, how do we build something better? How do we build something that's actually more responsive to the needs of working people? How do we build something that is resistant to the influence of the money and special interests? And yes, identity politics, and build something around the things that we all share, the concerns for our families and how we make a living, and how our kids are going to do better than we do.

And, you know, I think that's what people are looking for. But, I mean, I get your -- I get your criticism and I think what he's saying is don't do that. I think what he's saying is look at -- look to the leaders you have and support them and lift them up and leadership will come.

HUNT: David Urban, what say you?

URBAN: Who am I to question the wise Axe? Right?

I would say this. What I think is very instructive is who he is holding up and who he's not mentioning, right? So, he's holding up Spanberger. He's holding up Sherrill, two pretty moderate Democrats, blue dogs, almost Democrats. But yet, we didn't hear any mention of Mr. Mamdani who -- was really kind of captured the Democratic Party like Obama did before '08, right? So, I think that is very instructive.

HUNT: Well, New York may or may not be the same as like, you know, Iowa and Maine.

URBAN: No, no, but, but if you look at -- if you look at who is, who is fired up the base the most, right? I think at this point I may be wrong, but Mamdani, right?

CUNNINGHAM: Those are the most critical elections right now statewide, and Abby and Mikie are dynamic leaders.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'll also say from having read that speech that he gave, he was pretty scoldy. He is very scoldy these days. And he talked a lot about how people are not stepping up and doing their part, and how people have been folding and not really standing up tall.

And I just don't think that that goes down very well anymore. We saw that in the run up to the election, where he was sort of telling Black men that they needed in solidarity to vote for a black woman. And I think that that kind of scoldy Obama really doesn't play to the Democratic base anymore.

HUNT: Axe, can I get you to weigh in on that?

AXELROD: Yeah. Look, I mean, I half agree that -- I mean, I applaud those people, those law firms who had the courage to stand up, universities that are standing up to protect academic freedom. I also am aware that there are responsibilities to the institutions that people are leading that cause those to be difficult quests. So, it's not as easy as one might say.

That said, there may have been people in that room last night who were there to support the Democratic Party, but had questions about whether they wanted to stick their neck out, if they were part of a big law firm, and so on. And for them, maybe the message was appropriate.

HUNT: Axe, can I get you to also weigh in on what David was just saying about who and where the excitement is coming in? I mean, it's a good point. You know, Abigail Spanberger is the kind of candidate that certainly, if you think about the Bill Clinton model in the 1990s, you know, someone from the south, she's got national security experience appealing to a broader coalition, very different profile than the Democratic nominee for the mayoralty in New York.

AXELROD: Yeah, we're also a big, diverse country. I don't think David Urban, my buddy, I don't think he supports everything that every Republican officeholder around this country has said. He's way too sane for that.

And I would say this -- Mamdani has -- he has especially excited young people in New York. And it is instructive to see how he has done that. He has done that by single-mindedly focusing on the issue of affordability, which is huge in New York and across this country. So you may not agree with his prescriptions on some things, and you may not agree with some of his positions on other issues, but he -- I think that is a through line for Democrats across the country, whether it is Mikie Sherrill in Jersey or Spanberger in Virginia or candidates across the country. This -- we have an affordability crisis in this country. It's one of the reasons why Donald Trump was elected. He -- despite the fact that he says that he has done a tremendous job in dealing with that. I think people know the cash register doesn't lie. The rent check doesn't lie. This is a persistent problem. And I think it's one that Democrats can unify around rather than splintering into other issues that are much more divisive.

HUNT: All right. David Axelrod, always grateful to have you on the show, sir. See you soon, I hope.

AXELROD: Great to see you, guys.

HUNT: All right. Thank you.

All right. Coming up next here, a judge rules that the DHS must stop arresting people without probable cause. Ahead, what it could mean for Trump's mass deportation agenda.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:49:23]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: What we have always done is built a case and done investigative work in who we go after and who we target. And so, this judge is ridiculous in the fact that he put forward a decision like this. We will appeal it and we will win it, because over and over again, when our ICE officers are out there, getting the worst of the worst off of our streets, they're using the investigative backgrounds and information that they have from either criminal records or what they have for charges, or individuals who are breaking our federal laws that need to be brought to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Trump administration officials are defending ICE's detention process after a federal judge in California ruled late Friday that ICE agents need to stop detaining people based solely on race, spoken language, accent, location or occupation.

[16:50:09]

This is what Border czar Tom Homan had to say hours before the judge ruled.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOMAN: ICE officers and border patrol they don't need probable cause to walk up to somebody's briefly detained and question them. They just need the totality of the circumstances, right? They just got through their observation. You know, get our typical articulable facts based on the location, the occupation, their physical appearance, their actions, like a uniformed border patrol agent walks up to them, and, for instance, a Home Depot. And they got all these articulable facts, plus, the person walks away or runs away.

You know, agents are trained what they need to detain somebody temporarily and question them. It's not probable cause. It's reasonable suspicion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. David Urban, the tactics that the administration are using here have been very in-your-face, especially in L.A. and you're starting to see some of the numbers change for President Trump on immigration. Let's look at the Gallup poll, okay. Only 35 percent of people approve, 62 percent disapprove of the president's handling of this.

I mean, this is just Trump's arguably his best issue in the election. What's going on here?

URBAN: If you look at the narrative, if you look at the actual, the language from the pollsters there in that poll, where the president, the Trump administration did too good a job initially they closed down the border. People were very concerned about the porous border under the Biden administration. The administration came in and closed that border down, did a really great job.

And what we're seeing now, I think is a little bit of a backlash as you as you correctly point out, and that people don't want to see people detained or swept up in a -- in a home depot parking lot and shipped out of the country.

There's a real tension in this country, right? We have 11, 12 million people here who are here illegally. They're not all going home. They're not all going home in this administration. The next administration, the administration after that.

So, we need to come as a country to grips of what we're going to do with them, right?

SOLTIS ANDERSON: Yeah. We have a what a pollster -- call a thermostatic backlash here, where essentially the American public acts like a thermostat. They say it's too hot in here. We want it to get cooled off. The crisis around immigration is too much. We need to bring in Donald Trump to fix it.

And then he begins to fix it. And then they go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now, maybe its a little too cold in here. Let's -- let's go back to the thermostat. Let's readjust. And that's what you're seeing. I think you're also seeing that in the Gallup numbers around openness to legal immigration, that in just the last year there's been a really big increase in the number of Americans who think that legal immigration is a good thing, that we need to have.

So, this, this dealing with the problem at the border has actually allowed for a liberalizing effect on the public opinion around other pieces.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, I agree with David Urban here, 100,000 percent. Let me just reiterate that because we as a country have not dealt with our immigration system. And so, what has happened is that different presidents come in and unilaterally take measures that do not have the backing of the American people through Congress and through the voters. And so, what you are seeing now is an administration that is taking a very aggressive stance, unprecedentedly aggressive.

I mean, people are showing up with masks, ICE people showing up. You know, you could argue racially profiling Latinos, especially in California and other places. But you're also, to Kristen's point, seeing TPS being canceled, legal immigration. These are people who were given legal status here, and their status is being taken away.

HUNT: Right. All right. Coming up, he is too young to buy a beer, but he's old enough to be the Nats' number one pick. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:58:29]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON MANFRED, MLB COMMISSIONER: The first pick of the 2025 MLB draft, the Washington Nationals select Eli Willits, a shortstop from Fort Cobb-Broxton High School in Fort Cobb, Oklahoma.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: The number one overall draft pick in the 2025 MLB draft goes to a player who is just barely old enough to drive a car. I'm sorry. What?

The Washington Nationals surprised the baseball world yesterday by selecting 17-year-old and class of 2025 high school grad Eli Willits as their number one pick. A switch hitting shortstop, Willits is expected to develop a power swing that could help beef up the Nationals' struggling offense, shall we say.

The curveball pick comes after major changes to the team's leadership, and it makes Willits the youngest player taken number one since Ken Griffey Jr. back in 1987 with the Seattle Mariners.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELI WILLITS, NO.1 PICK IN 2025 MLB DRAFT: I wrote down two years ago in my bible that I wanted to be the first overall pick, and just to see this come true, come true -- it's just the power of God and everything he's done for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Well, that is incredibly, incredibly sweet.

Jake Tapper --

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, "THE LEAD": Kasie, are you an Orioles fan? HUNT: I am an Orioles fan, yes, I am.

TAPPER: Yeah. I mean, you guys should be taking like 12-year-olds, 13- year-olds, whatever you guys can get, honestly.

HUNT: Oh, come on. Come on.

TAPPER: You should be -- you guys should be trolling middle schools at this point.

HUNT: Well, you know what you should call up our the friend -- the friend of the outfit that just bought the team and let him know that.

TAPPER: Mr. Rubenstein?

HUNT: Yes, that's the one. You know, it's -- whatever. We're used to it. All right. It's going to be fine.

TAPPER: All right. Kasie, we'll see you back in THE ARENA tomorrow.

HUNT: Bye. Have a good one.