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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Trump Slams "Stupid" Republicans Focused On Epstein Probe; Will Trump Fire Powell?; Obamas Addressing Divorce Rumors. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired July 16, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:02]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: It's also notable this couple, a power couple, undoubtedly has gotten so much criticism, so many weird things made up about them over the years. And yet they're so classy in the way that they handle it.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yeah, certainly. But I love how they're basically saying people are just making stuff up, reading into things. She's addressed her nonattendance, which is also an interesting story in its own right.
SANCHEZ: It is, indeed.
KEILAR: But people draw conclusions.
SANCHEZ: Always.
KEILAR: All right. THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
SANCHEZ: Thank you so much for joining us.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's Donald Trump versus his own supporters.
The president calling some Republicans stupid and weaklings.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
The Jeffrey Epstein case, the story that has President Trump so frustrated, he's lashing out at MAGA. Could a special counsel be the answer to this headache?
Plus, a wobbly day for U.S. markets as President Trump flirts with firing Jerome Powell. He says it's highly unlikely, but he won't rule it out.
And then you've heard the rumors. Maybe they're separated. Maybe they're divorced. Now you can hear what President Barack Obama has to say about the state of his marriage to Michelle.
Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Wednesday.
Donald Trump still -- does this sound familiar? Because it was the same as the story yesterday. Donald Trump would really, really, really, really like for everyone to just move on from the Jeffrey Epstein story.
He would like his supporters to stop tweeting about it. He would like reporters to stop asking about it. And it seems like he wants to talk about anything else.
Jerome Powell, immigration, inflation, you name it. He'd rather talk about that. The president has become so desperate to change the subject that he is all but giving MAGA his make America great again movement the middle finger.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know it's a hoax. It's started by Democrats. It's been run by the Democrats for four years. You had Christopher Wray in these characters and Comey before him. It's all been a hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net. And so, they try and do the Democrats work.
People that are really doing the Democrats' work, they're stupid people. The Republicans, certain Republicans got duped by the Democrats, lost a lot of faith in certain people. Yeah, I lost because they got duped by the Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That was the president basically at war with his own party. And let's be honest, in this case, it's really more than his party. It is -- it's his people that he's at war with over a story that he was happy to promote when he thought it was politically useful.
But, of course, now that Trump's back in the White House actually has the power to release more information about Jeffrey Epstein and all of the things swirling around him, the people swirling around him -- well, the whole thing is now a hoax.
The president even posted this morning, quote, my past supporters have bought in to this BS and he didn't -- I'm being a little more polite hook, line and sinker, he said. Think about that, Donald Trump basically saying anyone who still has questions, well, they're not MAGA.
And in case there was any uncertainty about the depth of the president's feelings here, he added this quote, let these weaklings continue because I don't want their support anymore.
Just remember, it was a couple of months ago that the very people that Trump is now calling weaklings were invited to the White House to receive giant binders that were labeled the Epstein files. Phase one. And it was just a couple of months ago that Attorney General Pam Bondi said that a list of Epstein's clients was just sitting on her desk waiting for her to review it. That list was never released, and last week, Bondi and the DOJ said it never existed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Pam Bondi, I really think that she's done a very good, she says. I gave you all the credible information and if she finds any more credible information, she'll give that, too. What more can she do than that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Okay, our panel is going to be here to weigh in.
We've got quite a news day, guys. This story again.
But we're going to start with CNNs senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes, who is on the North Lawn.
Kristen, those are some really harsh words from the president to his own base. I mean, that that word "weaklings", right? Calling someone weak is like the ultimate insult for President Trump.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. And also, there's so many different things going on here. I mean, look, first you play that clip of him saying these people were duped and I'm disappointed. And my opinion of them has changed.
Well, some of those people who were allegedly duped by what he's now calling the Epstein hoax were given some of the most prominent positions in his cabinet.
[16:05:03]
I mean, we're looking at the attorney general herself, Pam Bondi, who perpetuated this, the head of the FBI, Kashe Patel, the deputy director of the FBI, Dan Bongino, all people who said that they believed that more needed to be released and that was something that they were going to do if President Trump won and came back into office for a second term.
Now, of course, they are here. We have been reporting extensively on the friction between all of them, but that is a separate story. The other part of this, him saying this kind of idea here, that he doesn't know why people care about this, these are not just low level supporters. You have to remember that part of the reason that President Trump won this campaign was on people who had never voted before. The way he got those people is that he tapped into a group of people who had podcasts and YouTube shows.
A lot of them perpetuating these conspiracy theories about these Epstein files. Those people reached out to their bases. They brought their bases into MAGA. And now he is telling those people, I don't care about you.
Now, I do have a little bit of news here, because the big question has been on going on is what is actually going to happen next? And our White House producer, DJ Judd, was able to just catch the president as he was leaving this event and asked if he would be willing to appoint a special prosecutor to look into the investigation of Jeffrey Epstein. He said, I don't have anything to do with that. Now let's just remember here, this is a Department of Justice that has
everything to do with the White House. They don't make any single move without consulting the White House. So, if there is to be a special investigator, a special counsel in this case, it is likely that that's going to be a conversation that the attorney general has with President Trump beforehand. It is something that we are seeing now really getting louder and louder, the calls from his own base to have this special counsel. So, we'll see where this goes next.
HUNT: Everything to do with it, indeed.
Kristen Holmes, thank you very much for that.
All right. Our panel is here. CNN's senior political commentator, former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, CNN political analyst and White House correspondent for "The New York Times", Zolan Kanno- Youngs, Democratic strategist Meghan Hays, and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist, Brad Todd.
Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here.
Who would like to take this one, Congressman?
(LAUGHTER)
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is amazing. This whole thing has been amazing to me. So he's now calling it a hoax.
Jeffrey Epstein was in jail, let's keep in mind. His associate is in jail or was in jail. I don't know if she's out. Keep in mind. So, obviously, there were clients involved. This isn't fake. If this was fake, I mean, they were the ones that actually arrested Jeffrey Epstein in 2019.
The other thing to keep in mind is he built a political movement on this. So, one of two things are possible here, either they lied about this conspiracy over and over to win an election, or they're covering something up.
There are only two options in that. And even Don Jr. himself, I found an old tweet. He says, show us the Epstein client list now. Why would anybody protect those scumbags? Ask yourself this question daily and the answer becomes very apparent.
This is not going to go away for Donald Trump. They are going to have to release these files. And every Republican is going to come under pressure to vote for this and release it.
HUNT: Why do you think that they won't do it? Are they actually trying to cover something up now?
KINZINGER: Look, I didn't think so. Now this makes me wonder because if he's not, if he's not associated with that at all, when is Donald Trump ever been concerned about ruining anybody else's reputation but his own? And he's claiming that that's that. So, look, I don't know. But I've seen two giant Truth Social screeds
that scream at me that he's worried about something.
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, let me go back and backwards one step.
HUNT: Fair enough.
TODD: Donald Trump -- Donald Trump's base are hairdressers and welders in places like where I grew up in Harriman, Tennessee. That's his base. It's not a bunch of talk show hosts here in Washington, D.C. I don't care if they call themselves an influencer or what. Steve Bannon and those folks who make their living off clicks are not his base. His base are blue collar voters. That's number one.
Number two, I sat in the studio with you a lot in the campaign last year and said, oh, I wish he would be more on message. I wish he would focus on the thing that really helps him.
Guess what? He's the guy on message. He's the guy enforcing message discipline on the Republican Party right now. We have a big, big tax bill to sell about how the American people are going to be spared the tax increases. Democrats are going to get them. That's the work we have to get about doing. And Donald Trump knows it.
MEGHAN HAYS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You're not wrong about him being on message. The problem is, is it's going to be a death by a thousand cuts. This is not going away. To your point, to all the past tweets, to all the past people who are out there, the Kash Patel, the Dan -- the Bonginos that are out there on record talking about this.
So, this is literally going to be death by a thousand cuts. He will not be able to change the message until these are out there, until they've released.
ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't know also if it's on message to post something criticizing, you know, at least some of his own supporters who are calling for more information about this when the vice president is going to Pennsylvania today to talk about this bill. It creates a split screen that would not seem to benefit the administration that's trying to sell this package at this point.
[16:10:05]
He's the one, you know, pushing back on this Epstein issue, and reef and put -- maintaining the focus on this Epstein issue at this point. That doesn't seem to be what many Republicans would want.
TODD: He's trying to push focus on other things.
KINZINGER: I was going to say, the "on message" thing. I mean, look, he's never on message. He's on message right now because he's scared to death of this. I mean, let's just be honest.
You can't read those Truth Social screeds and not see a guy who was scared to death of whatever's there. Look -- TODD: There's zero chance anything in there would have embarrassed
him because the Biden administration would have released it during the campaign.
KINZINGER: No, no, because the Biden doesn't play the kind of politics that Trump plays. Merrick Garland actually took his job seriously and wouldn't just release it to embarrass somebody. And the Democrats weren't the ones that promised over and over and over and over and over in a campaign for transparency and to release those files.
TODD: No Republican believes that. Merrick Garland was the one that said Catholics who use the Latin mass were domestic terrorists. I mean, Merrick Garland's political attorney general --
KINZINGER: What does it have to do what we're talking about now?
TODD: He's the most political attorney general we've ever had. Of course, he would have done it to her.
KINZINGER: He could have jumped on the January 6th -- one of my frustrations with him is he waited until our first hearing to jump on the January 6th thing. Democrats are ticked off at him about that. If the guy was playing politics like Pam Bondi does, it would have been a much different case. Trust me.
HUNT: I will say, brad, that one thing that did stick out to me was Trump saying in that post, I don't want your support anymore, right? I mean, it's not -- usually, I mean, you're a political consultant, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: He's not running again.
HUNT: -- addition, not subtraction.
TODD: He's not running again. So, he can say that. He can say that.
HAYS: He doesn't need their support. And also, there's decades of photos with them and there's audio saying that Epstein was a great guy. So if you're not in the files, everyone assumes you're in the files because you're being so defensive.
And also, there's all these photos with you in them. So, it's just -- it's weird to me that they just don't release something.
HUNT: So let's watch this moment because I'm being told that the sound that Kristen Holmes was talking about there.
So, our crack White House producer DJ Judd, apparently caught up with the president at the conclusion of this event that he was just holding at the White House, and he put this question to him about whether he would appoint a special counsel to deal with this. Epstein investigation.
Let's watch this moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DJ JUDD, CNN WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: President Trump, would you consider appointing a special counsel to investigate the Jeffrey Epstein investigation?
TRUMP: I have nothing to do with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Congressman, you see that I have nothing to do with it. I mean, doesn't Donald Trump make it his business to have everything to do with.
KINZINGER: He has everything to do with everything. I mean, anything happens in the world. He claims he's part of it. Anything that good, good that happens, of course he can.
I mean, there's nobody -- and by the way, I really don't even think there's anybody in the base that believes that he has nothing to do with this or actually that it was a Democratic thing. He's just giving talking points for the for their side. He's just giving them something to say because everybody's going to close their eyes and pretend this is a Democratic thing.
He could appoint a special counsel in a second, either release the files because you have nothing to hide and there's not a cover up, or you were lying about the fact that this was a conspiracy all along. It's literally one of the two just pick because it's not going away. People are going to stay on this.
HUNT: Let's watch what Charlie Kirk had to say today. We've been -- we've been following Charlie Kirk evolution on this throughout the week. He, of course, the young conservative behind Turning Point USA. He was a big part of President Trump's campaign. He's very tied into the president's circle. And this is something he was very focused on. And you can see you know, we've been able to watch his tune change over the weekend as the president has been grappling with this.
Here's his latest response to what the president said earlier today, calling it all a hoax. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE KIRK, FOUNDER, TURNING POINT USA: They're not trying to fall for a hoax but the way that you taught us is that we need to go after the rogue intel agencies to lance the boil that has been festering. We are your students in dismantling the deep state. President Trump was elected primarily to go after the deep state. We want to go after the deep state. A lot of this is largely just a misunderstanding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, he -- Zolan, he says, oh, this is just a misunderstanding, but you can also kind of see the umbrage there. It's a little bit measured, but basically saying, look, we're not -- like we're your students. We're not dupes. What did you see in that?
KANNO-YOUNGS: Well, it's becoming a little bit difficult to track Charlie Kirk's stances on this because he also the -- before this also was saying, I trust the people in the government who are telling me about this today. It seems that --
HUNT: Yeah, that was Monday. And then there was another reversal on Tuesday, that he definitely backed off again. And then here's a little more of that.
KANNO-YOUNGS: This seems to almost be a nudge to tell the administration that criticizing some of these folks that are calling for more information here is not -- that criticizing your own base isn't the best option here, and actually almost pleading for more information. I mean, look, there's a -- there's kind of a consistent playbook that the president has used when he's facing pressure, blame the media, blame political opponents, blame Democrats and blame his predecessor.
[16:15:03]
He's tried all of that with this issue, including just today. This -- this issue is different, though, because it's through the campaign. He brought in people into his administration that sort of made issues like this. The foundation of the MAGA movement, in a way.
So, now, you have to face your own supporters, not political opponents, not people who are criticizing you. And it's left many of his own supporters, including Charlie Kirk and other podcasters searching for answers to give to the base at this point. And they haven't seemed to figure out what that message is yet.
HUNT: Yeah, Brad, I take your point about, you know, welders and blue collar people as being a distinct thing from this sort of MAGA media universe that is very online. I take that point, but I think the big picture here and, you know, obviously, we've been willing to laugh at this table. You know, we are trying to handle this story with a kind of the raised eyebrow that it deserves.
But in seriousness, this really comes from a place where these conservatives MAGA some of them are Republicans, some of them are just conservative MAGA people have basically been saying that the other party is a party that supports pedophiles, that they are deeply evil and awful people.
And I just -- I'm interested to know what you think that says about the state of our politics.
And, Congressman, I'd like to get you to weigh in, too, because in a world where that's the case, there is no working together.
TODD: Jeffrey Epstein has no supporters. Epstein island has no supporters. Zero.
Everyone thinks that anyone involved in this illegality should be prosecuted. That doesn't mean that this isn't the low calorie, high sugar shark week kind of summer content in Washington.
And there are many more important things. I think that's what the president is trying to say. There are many more important things we ought to be doing. And he also has delegated this job to Pam Bondi, and he's trying to let her do this job.
I think you're right that cooperation is an all-time low if you can't even all cooperate to agree on something as basic as this. But I really do think we're going to look back on --
HUNT: Well, I think everybody agrees --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: -- we wasted a month.
HUNT: Everyone agrees that Epstein is horrible. Nobody is defending that. But there was one election, one side in the election that ran on the other side being a defender of people like him.
KINZINGER: Totally. This is -- here's the thing. Like, you know, brad said, and I and I appreciate it, he said. Everybody that was associated with this should be in jail.
There's only one person in jail with this, and people were -- the MAGA was saying, we want it. We want to get the answers of who that was. And on top of that, Elise Stefanik -- one of the first people that disappointed me to break this barrier. She said she called him Democratic pedo-grifters is what she says.
They always call their opponents pedophiles. They accuse them of pedophilia. I've had people accuse me of pedophilia on X because they don't like a political stand I take, and then all of a sudden, there's a real issue of pedophilia in Epstein. Half of them are actually very serious about wanting the answer. The other half are like, don't look here. It was actually a Democratic conspiracy.
And yeah, there's much more important stuff. Theres a war in Ukraine which is way more important than this. But Donald Trump thrives on the cheap sugar highs. That's his stories. Thats where he came into power. And he came into power on this.
HUNT: All right. Well, we'll see how long this sugar high keeps going because as this table has pointed out, it's the president of the United States who keeps talking about it. And that's why we're doing the same thing.
All right. Up next, will President Trump fire Jerome Powell, the chairman of the federal reserve? The president says it is highly unlikely, but that he won't rule it out. Senator Tim Kaine will be here to discuss.
Plus, more on the MAGA revolt over the Epstein files as Donald Trump continues to try to make this story just go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Thank you, press.
TRUMP: Thank you. It's another day in paradise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:23:19]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are you completely ruling out the idea of firing Jerome Powell?
TRUMP: I don't rule out anything, but I think it's highly unlikely, unless he has to leave for fraud. I mean, it's possible there's fraud involved with the $2.5 billion -- $2.7 billion renovation. So, you know, there could be something to that. But I think he's not doing a good job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That was President Trump today pushing back, sort of, on reports that he plans to fire Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell. He notably did not rule out the possibility entirely. That comes after a series of stories that really rattled the markets earlier this morning, saying that the president told a group of Republicans on Capitol Hill yesterday about whether he should fire Powell.
One person in the room telling CNN that Trump gestured toward a document he says was a letter firing the Fed chair. Trump, also refuting that account.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You didn't show a letter to Republican lawmakers last night?
TRUMP: No. I talked about the concept of firing him. I said, what do you think? Almost every one of them said I should.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Almost every one of them said I should, he claimed.
CNN's Phil Mattingly joins our panel.
Phil, this has consumed your day. Explain what's going on here. We -- we can show our viewers what happened when the president was talking about this, when the spate of stories came out. Basically, the market right about noon -- yeah, just plunges.
And then, you know, the president comes out and says, well, it's still it's very unlikely, although he, of course, left open the door that he could use this report from the OMB about this renovation that Powell has apparently undertaken to fire him for cause.
[16:25:07]
What do you know?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I like that chart because that divot is what you need to -- think about like Zolan on the golf course, right? Like just a huge divot without a -- without an outcome necessarily that's satisfying for anybody.
HUNT: A divot and a ball in the water basically.
MATTINGLY: And that's -- yeah. That's a -- that's essentially where we are.
It's actually -- I was listening to Trump's initial response of not taking it off the table. Highly unlikely, except for this one thing that may happen, which then maybe would make it likely, but I'm not totally sure yet.
And my frustration as a reporter listening to that who had just gone through about a 35-minute, oh, wow, this might actually be happening, despite everything his advisers had been telling me behind the scenes for the better part of 5 to 6 days, think about how Jay Powell hears that comment.
And I think that is a good way to capture the intent here because the intent here is not to actually fire Jay Powell, something that he does not have statutory authority to do in and of itself. If he finds cause, which clearly they're trying to find a pathway for that now, even the effort that they're undertaking is tenuous at best from a cause basis. And the ultimate arbiter here is the market and the market response back to Zolan's divot there tells you why he doesn't want to pursue this.
What he does want is to escalate the pressure. And his advisors have really given him a lot of air cover over the course of the last couple of days to do that, and I think that's going to continue going forward.
HUNT: Yeah. Well, so let's -- I mean, Jerome Powell himself has also been very definitive in ways that have been different from, say, the way Christopher Wray handled the fact that the president clearly wanted to show him the door.
This was Jerome Powell. This was November of 2024. So, remember what happened? There was an election. This is like within days of the election.
This is what we hear from Jay Powell. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: If he asked you to leave, would you go?
JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: No. REPORTER: Can you follow up on -- do you think that legally, you're
not required to leave?
POWELL: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Two days after the election, he says no.
Do you think that if they tried, he would fight it?
MATTINGLY: No. Oh, wait. No. Yes. Yes. Sorry.
Believe it or not, Jay Powell is like the more expansive and conversational Fed chair that we've had in a very long period of time, maybe ever. You didn't really show it there.
Yes. I think it's unequivocally the case that he would fight it. And I think that plays into kind of the thinking behind the scenes right now.
Look, he's up in May. The president is in the midst of a process to select his replacement. Whoever the replacement is will have basically pledged their firstborn and 7,000 rate cuts to try and get the job to begin with.
Markets are pricing in kind of the longer term rate cuts when Powell leaves on kind of a top line basis at the moment, that's coming right now.
There's just no reason to make this play because it's not going to get you what you want. Powell doesn't make the decision unilaterally. It is the Federal Open Market Committee. He and his vote are one vote. None of the committee members in the last meeting wanted a rate cut.
There may be a couple who do in July, but probably not a majority. If you throw out Powell, if you start that legal process, which will be a mess. If you throw the markets into turmoil, the result is not going to be, hey, let's cut rates. The result is going to be, we're in an economic crisis right now. It's the last thing we can do as we try and figure out the process going forward.
So I think that's the reality here is important to keep in mind as we kind of go through this squirrel shiny object process all over again.
HUNT: Yeah. Well, and I mean, Congressman Kinzinger, Phil lays out all the reasons why this would be a bad idea.
KINZINGER: Yeah.
HUNT: But Donald Trump clearly wants to do it anyway. Will he?
KINZINGER: No. I -- I mean, I really don't know, but I'm going to say since his -- since his term is up in May, probably he will keep throwing this line out there getting people concerned and stick it out. But here's -- this what I think is really important for people to remember. Why doesn't he like Jay Powell? Because he won't cut interest rates. Why are interest rates high? Because inflation was out of control.
People were complaining about high prices. We know prices are high. What happens if you just cut interest rates? You have too much money in the system. You have inflation skyrocket, and you're going to have to have far higher rate increases, or you're going to have to just deal with the fact that cars are now $100,000 apiece.
So, there's a reason interest rates are high because the Fed is trying to take control of this inflation. They've done a decent job so far. And if you just come in with politics, we're going to throw that into a tizzy.
TODD: But inflation is flat, inflation is flat. And if you watch Jay Powell's press conferences after the Federal Open Markets Committees, they basically have the economy is hitting all the marks, he said. He's just not doing this to punish Donald Trump for tariff uncertainty.
And meanwhile, the tariffs are pulling money out of the money supply. They're actually working in concert with what Jay Powell's objective would be to hold down inflation.
[16:30:01]
Every Western country has had a rate cut. The markets are asking for a rate cut. Now Donald Trump's not unreasonable in wanting a rate cut.
HUNT: All right.
KANNO-YOUNGS: I was just going to say, look, in terms of whether or not the president will do this, my colleagues have reported that he did draft a letter. Markets have in recent weeks responded to these threats, any threats by the president, but really not taking them altogether that seriously when it comes to the economy. For this one, we have to see if they do.
The markets have proven themselves to be one of the few guardrails on this administration.
And, Phil, I did play mini-golf this weekend, and actually, I came in second place with my friend. So, you know --
HUNT: It doesn't mean there's no --
KANNO-YOUNGS: -- I'm making improvements.
MATTINGLY: Zolan, I'm proud of you. Just keep grinding. Just keep grinding, Zolan.
HUNT: Phil Mattingly, thank you very much, sir. Really appreciate it.
Our panel is going to stick around. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, are they separated? Are they divorced? Do they even talk to each other? Rumors. All rumors. And Barack and Michelle Obama have now addressed them in public. We'll talk about that.
Plus, will President Trump appoint a special counsel to investigate the Epstein files? Senator Tim Kaine is here to discuss this story that the president can't seem to shake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Instead, they want to talk about the Epstein hoax. And the sad part is, it's people that are really doing the Democrats' work. They're stupid people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:35:45]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Well, I think what you should feel badly about is dozens and dozens of teenage girls, middle schoolers who were preyed upon by this character that President Trump knew. I mean, if he was going to express any concern about somebody, he should have expressed concern about all these victims who didn't get justice because of the sweetheart deal that Secretary Acosta cut with Jeffrey Epstein.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That was Senator Tim Kaine in 2019, criticizing the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal by President Donald Trump's first administration. Six years later, nearly to the day, the senator arguing that Trump and his cabinet are still concealing information about the Epstein case from the public.
And joining us to discuss this and more is Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia.
Senator, very grateful to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here.
KAINE: Thanks, Kasie. You bet.
HUNT: So, you know, I think my question to you is a pretty basic one. Why do you think it is that President Trump won't put out more of these files?
KAINE: Kasie, I'm very puzzled by it. As you pointed out in the first Trump term, he made the bizarre move, in my view, of appointing to be a cabinet secretary, the federal prosecutor, Alex Acosta, who had cut a sweetheart deal with Jeffrey Epstein. I criticized it at the time. I tried to convince colleagues, don't vote for this guy. I was not successful, but it ended up blowing up in his face and he had to resign two years later.
Now, here we are in the second Trump term. He appoints an attorney general from Florida. She invites everybody to the White House and does this big kind of staged theatrical event in the winter, suggesting that they're going to release all the Epstein files. She gives people one binder and says, more to come. A client list on her desk.
And then all of a sudden, this cabinet member and Trump term two does a 180 and says, there's nothing to see. And Donald Trump is sticking up for her. I don't get it. I don't get why he would have appointed the Epstein prosecutor who did the sweetheart deal. And I don't get why he's supporting an attorney general who's trying to sweep this thing under the rug.
HUNT: One question that the president was asked today was about whether he would support a special counsel to investigate what's going on here. He said he doesn't have anything to do with that. Is that accurate? Would you like to see a special counsel in this case?
KAINE: I tell you, let me just make it even simpler. Just release all the information. Just do that. Do what you said you were going to do.
If the information is out there, there might be a need for there to be a special prosecutor to see if other people are implicated in it. But the simplest step is just to do what you promised you were going to do a couple of months back. And frankly, during your campaign, you said you were going to release all of the Epstein information.
HUNT: Do you think that President Biden should have put more of this out there?
KAINE: I actually -- it's the Trump team that has made a lot of out of this. Remember, we wouldn't even really be talking about this, I don't think, Kasie, at all, if Attorney General Bondi hadn't had this big theatrical event at the White House.
She doesn't get to do a White House event on her own. She didn't sneak in there. She did that event because President Trump and the team wanted her to do this event and invite these conspiracy theorists there. So, they are the ones that gave oxygen to this story, and now they're ones trying to kill the story.
HUNT: Yeah, I think I'm asking because there are plenty of Democrats who some more gleeful than others, but many who are willing to say, oh, you know, look at this. This is a mess for Republicans. And to really seize on it. So, it just does seem like the question is, well, there was a Democratic president who could have done more about it.
KAINE: Yeah, I mean, you're right. Could have done something about it. But remember, who is the -- who is the group that's been making the most out of this? It's been Donald Trump and his followers. Donald Trump's vice president, J.D. Vance. The day that Pam Bondi had that White House event and said that all the files were coming out, I had Republican colleagues up here in the senate who were salivating at the notion, we're finally going to get what we've been asking for.
Why would they then do a 180? It just doesn't add up. HUNT: While I have you, I also want to ask you about another story
that we were just talking about at some length, and that is the Federal Reserve chair, Jerome Powell.
[16:40:00]
The president seemed to suggest that he may be looking at -- we're reporting that there was a draft letter around redecoration that Powell undertook. What is your reaction to what we've seen from the president in terms of his willingness to potentially fire the Federal Reserve chair?
KAINE: Well, it's like this tariff stuff. I'm going to impose a tariff. I'm going to delay a tariff. I may give you an exemption on the tariff. Let's talk more. I've got a deal. I don't have a deal.
Anything in the economic space. Donald Trump is just backing and forthing, careening all over the deck. And that's why you start to see inflation creeping up. That's why you see great economic uncertainty.
Donald Trump inherited the strongest economy in the world at the end of 2024. Not a perfect economy, but a very strong one. And his chaotic backing and forthing is hurting folks in Virginia, nationally. I don't think he's going to lay off Jay Powell, because if he did, I think the markets would go nuts. And that's one thing Donald Trump understands.
HUNT: All right. Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia -- sir, I know, I know, you got to go get to a vote on the floor. I don't want to keep you any longer. Thank you very much for being here.
KAINE: Look forward to talking more. Thanks, Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Talk to you soon.
All right. Still to come here, former First Lady Michelle Obama's latest podcast had a very special guest. Ahead, Barack Obama's response to rumors about the state of their marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: These are the kinds of things that I just miss, right? I don't even know this stuffs going on.
CRAIG ROBINSON, PODCAST HOST: Right.
OBAMA: And then somebody will mention it to me and I'm all like, what are you talking about?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:46:07]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBINSON: Wait, you guys like each other?
MICHELLE OBAMA FORMER FIRST LADY: Oh, yeah. Really? That's the rumor mill. I It's my husband, y'all.
B. OBAMA: She took me back.
(LAUGHTER)
M. OBAMA: Now, don't start. I can't --
B. OBAMA: It was -- it was touch and go for a while.
ROBINSON: It's so nice to have you both in the same room together.
B. OBAMA: I know.
M. OBAMA: I know, because when we aren't, folks think we're divorced.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: President Obama and his wife Michelle publicly acknowledging the rampant rumors that their marriage has been on the rocks. The whispers about that got a lot louder in January, after the former first lady did not attend Jimmy Carter's funeral or President Trump's inauguration. The couple is now trying to put the issue to bed in the latest episode of her podcast, "IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson".
It comes days after Barack Obama made headlines for telling Democrats at a private fundraiser to toughen up as the party struggles to find an effective messaging strategy.
Meghan Hays, Michelle was also very direct about this. I want to watch. She basically said that she never entertained the possibility of divorce. Let's watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. OBAMA: There hasn't been one moment in our marriage where I thought about quitting my man, and we've had some really hard times that we had, have had a lot of fun times, a lot of adventures, and I have become a better person because of the man I'm married to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Well, so that was very heartfelt and nice. But that sort of beginning, interesting. Clearly they did that on purpose, or at least it certainly felt that way. What do you make of the fact that they felt compelled to do this in public?
HAYS: I mean, I think there's a few things. I think they are tired of the rumors. It just is -- it's gotten out of control of who's having an affair with who, and it's just all over the tabloids. But I also think it's extremely smart. She has a podcast. They are
driving people to her podcast. We are all now talking about it and talking about her podcast. So, I mean, she is doing what everyone else is doing in the news and driving people to their platforms to hear information that everyone is kind of obsessed with them and the state of their marriage. Apparently.
HUNT: Adam Kinzinger, you're a public figure. I mean, you've had -- I don't know that you've had rampant rumors in the tabloids about your -- the state of your marital life, but you certainly have experienced a version of what they're -- of what they're going through.
What do you make of it?
KINZINGER: Look, I feel bad for them because it's like, you know, particularly after once you're out of office, I think really, you shouldn't be the subject of that rampant. I mean, I get it, it's going to happen. Why didn't she go to the, you know, the inauguration? Because she didn't have to, right?
And plus, if you're going to get divorced, I think you can still go to the inauguration if you want to kind of keep things up. If you want to keep up appearances. I think she's just been clear. It's kind of a post-political life.
But yeah, I mean, I can tell you, like, you know, you look through social media and you see rumors about yourself all the time, and you have to learn to get thick skin about it. But it does bother you. It can get there, and bother you after a while.
And so, I can see how for them being hit over and over and over again, they're like, let's just talk about it.
HUNT: Zolan?
KANNO-YOUNGS: I mean, that last point, let's just talk about it. It seems like a sort of 101 for comms is if there's a void of information, others will fill it, right? Whether that's people on social media or people coming in with their assumptions.
And here you see them trying to fill that void of information with their own conversation, even if it is their own podcast as well, and not an interview with a reporter.
HUNT: Yeah.
Brad, I'm curious what you make of that, that idea, right, because the classic old school PR strategy would be to just ignore it, right? If you're doing this, you're adding fuel to the fire. You're causing people like us to sit around and talk about it.
But, you know, Donald Trump in politics certainly pioneered a different way of doing things, which is to fill -- you know, flood the zone, take it head on.
[16:50:07] What do you make of this? As I mean, yes, they are. He is out of office. But it doesn't mean that they're not -- that they don't have any skin in the game.
TODD: Still seek influence.
HUNT: Yeah.
TODD: They still want influence. I think it's a great example of narrow casting. The people that they care about, whose opinions they care about, of this are people who listen to her podcast. That's the base of the base for the Obamas. And so, they wanted to address it for those people, but they don't feel a need to go on television and address it or do it in print, because that's the broadcast.
This is a narrowcast world we're in right now. And I also think, I think they're entitled to their privacy. I mean, I think the sharks are going to get jealous because instead of shark week, we're talking about another -- somebody's personal life. But I think they're entitled to their privacy. And if they want to tell us, good or bad, what's going on with them, they can.
HUNT: Meghan, the other piece of this, of course, Barack Obama has been very careful in how he's involved himself in politics in his post-presidential life, and he did address a bunch of donors for the New Jersey and Virginia races. And he someone was on our set earlier this week saying that he basically was scolding Democrats, telling them to toughen up.
Whoopi Goldberg weighed in on this on "The View". Let's watch what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, CO-HOST OF "THE VIEW": When we had the giant marches that went on, it was the people. The people went out. They were not navel gazing. It was older people who were saying, why are you touching my Social Security?
It was not people whining. It was about people saying, why are you taking these rights from my child when my child was born here? This has not been about Democrats laying back. This has been about y'all.
I believe you are pointing the finger at the wrong person when you say Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: What do you make of that?
HAYS: I think we keep pointing the finger at each other all the time, and I -- the Obamas and the former president has been very clear that he is stepping back because he is not in leadership and he wants leadership to be making these decisions and be the leader and whoever is going to be the nominee in '28 needs to become the leader of the party, and it's not going to be him. So, I think he's providing private advice behind the scenes, which I
think we've all heard about. But I also think she's right to the extent of Democrats are out there fighting, and they're the ones who win on those marches, the no king rally, and they're the ones that are out there, and those are the ones that are continuing to fight. And so, it's not just leadership that's in charge here that should be fighting.
It should be everyone. Everyone should be concerned about what's going on in our country right now.
HUNT: All right. Still to come here, it is almost time for one of my favorite annual traditions, the congressional women's softball game. Weve got an exclusive tonight with the star pitcher. We'll bring you that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:57:22]
HUNT: All right. Before we go, we absolutely have to discuss the congressional women's softball game. It is tonight. It is the 17th annual faceoff between journalists where the bad news babes and members of congress. It's all to benefit women with breast cancer, young women with breast cancer, especially.
The tradition began in 2009 after Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz was treated for the disease. I'm actually very sad I'm not going to be playing in this year's game. It's the first time since this game started in 2009 that I am not a part of it.
But lucky for us, we have tonight's pitcher, Brianna Keilar here. She, of course, anchors "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" when she's not on the diamond.
Brianna, you and I did this. You were part of one of the very early games. This has been a really longstanding and beloved tradition. And of course, a big part of it is who we play for, because we all pick often survivors of breast cancer to play for. Tell us about tonight.
KEILAR: That's right. Okay. So very excited. I don't know how it's going to go, but I'm --
HUNT: Pitching is very hard.
KEILAR: It's tricky. I hope I'm going to do all right and not let my team down as we take on the lawmakers. But I'm actually going to be playing for Sara Sidner as we all pick someone that we play in honor of or in memoriam of. And so, Sara has been very up front, of course, with her battle with breast cancer, talking about it, which is so helpful to so many people to hear her tell her story.
So yeah, she threw out the pitch actually, last year we had the -- you can see the joy on her face for this game.
HUNT: Yeah. KEILAR: And it raises a ton of money too. So last year raised over
$600,000 for the Young Survival Coalition to help people who are going through this battle.
HUNT: Yeah. No, it's an absolutely amazing cause. And of course, they do pull cards together.
And for anyone who doesn't personally know someone who has been affected by this, they will match you up. I've gotten a chance to meet some of these incredible survivors over the years. I played for family friends as well.
I will say there's --
KEILAR: I'll of miss you, dude. I have to say
HUNT: And Kathy Hochul. Okay, so that was the year Kathy Hochul played. Look at that. We used to have just plain T-shirts and we've come a long way now. We played first base.
KEILAR: Now we have jerseys.
HUNT: I know. It's a huge upgrade.
KEILAR: Okay, so this is the first off, the -- you know, there's the congressional baseball team baseball game. That's where the guys play. And its Democrats versus Republicans. That's not very original, I have to say.
What this game does is it pits the lawmakers, Republicans and Democrats together because as you're aware, Kasie, there aren't as many women in Congress as men against us, the reporters. And so where do you get to take on a lawmaker like you did there?
But that happens sometimes. People just lay in each other out flat. It's very competitive. There's a lot of trash talk.
HUNT: There is.
KEILAR: Speaking of trash talk, Jake Tapper is standing by.
Jake, have you been to the game?
