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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Source: NYC Gunman Held On Psychiatric Hold In 2022 & 2024; Ghislaine Maxwell Demands Immunity To Testify To Congress; Trump: Employees Epstein Poached From Mar-a-Lago Were Young Women; New: Senate Republicans In "Active Conversations" Over Weather To Change Rules To Speed Up Trump Nominees. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired July 29, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: But they're still delicious.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Let's find out if these are delicious.
KEILAR: Okay I mean, they are because they're like chicken breast nuggets.
SANCHEZ: What do you think?
KEILAR: So good. Amazing.
SANCHEZ: Head over to Instagram. Vote on the poll. Tell us what you think.
KEILAR: I can't really talk.
SANCHEZ: Boneless bone in.
KEILAR: It's a totally scientific poll. Definitely go there and do it.
SANCHEZ: Yeah.
KEILAR: THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
SANCHEZ: Cheers.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Breaking news right here on CNN. We have new details on the gunman and the weapon used in yesterday's mass shooting in Midtown Manhattan.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
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HUNT: A source tells CNN that the man who shot and killed four people has been placed on two psychiatric holds in recent years. We're also learning more about how he assembled his rifle, using a part purchased by an associate by someone else.
I'll speak exclusively with former New York governor and mayoral candidate, Andrew Cuomo.
Plus, Epstein accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell tells Congress she's willing to testify, but she's got a list of demands, things she wants in return, including immunity.
And then, new comments from President Trump about Jeffrey Epstein. Ahead, why he says the convicted pedophile was, quote, stealing employees from the spa at Mar-a-Lago.
Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA.
We do have some breaking news here. The man who shot and killed four people in a Manhattan office yesterday has been placed on psychiatric hold twice in recent years. We have learned this. According to a law enforcement source briefed on the situation.
One incident occurring in 2022, when Las Vegas police found Shane Devon Tamura on the street, exhibiting behavior that made them think that he might be a threat to himself. He was taken to a hospital, placed on psychiatric hold for an unknown period of time, and the second incident occurred just last year. We don't have details quite yet about that second psychiatric hold.
We're also getting new details here about the gun that police say Tamura used to kill four people and then himself. This afternoon, the NYPD announced that Tamura had assembled the AR style rifle using a federally restricted component that was purchased by someone else that might have allowed him to evade a background check that would be required when buying that piece of equipment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: The weapon used an AR-15 style assault rifle was assembled by M. Tamura using a lower receiver purchased by an associate. We have located that associate and others and we'll be questioning him about that purchase. This is part of a larger effort to trace Mr. Tamura's steps from Las Vegas to New York City.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. CNN's Brynn Gingras is live in New York City near the scene of the shooting. And we're also joined by CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller.
And, John, I do want to go first to you, because you do have this new reporting on the gunman's mental health history. What are you learning?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: A couple of things. He was stopped twice by Las Vegas metro police in the last couple of years. And in each of those cases, they used a Las Vegas L2K law. It's called Nevada Legal 2000, L2K process.
What it means is, if you're a police officer and you observe someone who is acting out or exhibiting behavior where you think they're a danger to themselves, or they may be a danger to others, you can remove them to a hospital for mental observation, and after that, it's in the hands of the doctors. Now, typically, and we don't have the records in this case as to what the medical decision was because of the medical privacy laws that come into play.
But typically, when they get you to a medical facility, they'll ask, are you thinking of killing yourself? Have you thought about killing yourself? Are you thinking of killing anybody else? And when the answer is no to those questions, they may issue you a prescription, but they'll generally let you go in a very short amount of time.
Having two of those encounters at the same time, you know, begins to show us about an individual who's becoming unglued. At the same time, we see that purchase in June of a 357 Magnum revolver, and we see, as the police commissioner mentioned. And let's go a little deeper into that.
Sources tell CNN that that purchase was made by another individual, an individual named Rick. Now, when we go back to the suicide note, one of the last lines, the gunman signs is tell Rick I'm very sorry. Investigators believe those two Ricks are one in the same and that this is a former supervisor he worked with in one of his security positions who purchased the -- what they call a lower receiver, which is the main mechanics of that gun that he then assembled by attaching a stock and a barrel, a scope and a flashlight, and turning it into an assault weapon before he used it yesterday.
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HUNT: Yeah. So, John, just to put a finer point on this, this particular piece, I mean, if you were to buy an assault weapon already assembled, that would require a background check. You can purchase these other pieces minus this one thing that Rick purchased for him without that background check. And it's this one that would have triggered it?
MILLER: That's where these laws can get complicated. On one side, you know, you have ghost guns where you're actually buying the parts online and assembling it at home. In this case, you have someone who actually is purchasing the lower receiver, which at that point is legally considered a firearm because once you add the other pieces to it, it becomes an inoperable firearm. And that person had to fill out the 4473 form where, you know, you assert that you're not under any court order or order of protection or restraining order or, you know, mental hold.
And, in Nevada, and I'd have to check the law on this. It's possible that an individual who bought it legally, like Rick did, could then sell it in a private sale to a friend without creating a lot of records. Each states laws are different, and I'll go back and check that. But either way, they're looking at why did he buy it and why did he then allegedly give it to the gunman?
HUNT: Fascinating.
Brynn Gingras. Let me ask you, what more are we learning at this hour about the victims of this horrific crime yeah.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, you know what, Kasie? We are just learning now the fourth victim's name. We had known at this point, it was an unidentified woman, but we've -- now she has a name. Her name is Julia Hyman, and she worked for Rudin Management. Of course, that is the company where Tamura was able to get up to on the 33rd floor of the building here behind me.
She graduated from Cornell University in 2020, living here in Manhattan and studying hotel and restaurant administration in college. Now, of course, we are just learning so many heartbreaking details about all of these victims who were caught in this horrible, brazen attack that police say Tamura conducted yesterday during the evening rush hours.
We've learned about Wesley LePatner. She was executive here at Blackstone and believed to be possibly in the lobby of this building when this attack occurred, hiding behind a pillar. She was a graduate from Yale, a mother, a wife, having, I believe, two children.
We've also learned about the security guard. His name was Aland Etienne. He was actually hiding behind the security desk as Tamura approached, and was trying to actually hit the button. That would make all the elevators in the building stop, hoping that he would possibly save other people.
And finally, we know about the officer that died here who was serving an off duty job, a security job, who again, though, was on the force for three and a half years of the NYPD, Didarul Islam. He has a wife, two sons, and was expecting a baby on the way.
I could tell you here. It's very solemn here. Weve been seeing a lot of flowers that have been put out in front of the building, balloons. People coming here to pay their respects, and really just reflecting on how this changed this area of Manhattan. Very busy area of New York City, where a lot of business is happening and it's devastating.
We're starting now to actually see some people come and possibly replace the windows that were shattered as Tamura approached that building and started firing that AR-15. But as you talked to John, there was so much more that we also learned about tomorrow investigators saying they are now trying to piece together exactly how he got from Las Vegas to New York. What were the steps that were taken? They believe the last time he was in Las Vegas, he didn't show up to his job. And that is when he started to make the trek here to carry out this attack in New York City during the rush hour.
HUNT: Yeah.
All right. I want to bring in now CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, it's always great to see you. Thanks so much for being here.
I would like to explore because we know that was this note where the shooter essentially diagnosed himself with CTE. This brain disease that we know has afflicted some professional athletes who have had a lot of head trauma. Can you explain what that means? Whether he could have self-diagnosed himself with this?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESEPONDENT: Yeah. So, first of all, CTE, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a lot of people have heard about this. It is very, very much associated with repeated blows to the head, although they don't necessarily have to be concussive blows to the head, even just milder blows to the head over time can do it.
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You can't diagnose yourself with this to your question, Kasie. In fact, to definitively diagnose this, that's really done at autopsy, when someone's brain is examined. And I can show you some of these images. I mean, it's quite striking in someone who has CTE compared to normal brain. Those top images, Kasie, that's CTE. These protein sort of build up in the brain in response to those repeated blows, and it causes this neurodegenerative disease. And this has been pretty well- established just over the last couple of decades.
There are pretty, pretty classic symptoms that are associated with this. Behavioral symptoms, cognitive symptoms. So, memory loss, for example, difficulties with impulsivity, depression, even people feeling suicidal at times. So, this is associated with it.
So, there are a lot of people, Kasie, who say look in my life I've had repeated blows to the head. I now have these symptoms. Could there be a link between the two? A lot of people do think that.
But you can't, to your question, make that diagnosis. Nobody can really, while the person is still living.
HUNT: Sanjay, this was not someone who played professionally, didn't play college football. Is this something that's a risk for someone with the kind of career that this man had at the high school level?
GUPTA: The answer is possibly. Yeah. I mean, you know, we do think of this in professional athletes like Aaron Hernandez, for example. But, you know, there was an interesting study that came out in 2023, which I found really interesting because it basically suggested there may be some people who are just more vulnerable to having a brain that can develop CTE. So even with a shorter career and fewer hits, they may still develop CTE, whereas somebody else who had more a longer career and more hits did not.
But in this study, they actually looked at people between the ages of 17 and 29. They had all died, obviously under the age of 30, but there were people as young as 17 that were included in that study. A lot of times they may have different symptoms, like the symptoms in a younger person with CTE, may be more behavioral, more mental health, whereas when you get older, people can even develop almost like a Parkinsons like syndrome, where they have difficulties with their movement and gait and things like that.
But the answer is yes, it is -- it is unlikely statistically, but it is possible to develop at a pretty young age. Remember, Aaron Hernandez was 27, Kasie, when he died in prison.
HUNT: Indeed. All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks very much for that. It's always great to have you on the show, sir. Thanks very much for being here.
John Miller, Brynn Gingras, thanks to you as well.
And now, we want to bring in the former governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo. He's, of course, also currently running for mayor of New York City.
And, Governor Cuomo, this, of course, very difficult day for New York City. And I'd like to start there.
Have you spoken with the families of the victims? And of course, there was one NYPD officer who was killed.
ANDREW CUOMO, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Thank you. Good to be with you, Kasie.
It is -- it is a very sad day here in New York. And as your reporting points out, 345 Park Avenue, and that location is really in the heart of Midtown Manhattan. I've been in that building many times. I visited that floor many times.
So, it is -- it's especially poignant for New Yorkers who are in Manhattan. They know that location and everybody can relate to it. Our heart breaks for Officer Islam and his family. A pregnant wife, two sons and the other victims.
Of course, people are giving them privacy today, as it should be. But all New Yorkers, all New Yorkers, feel this. It resonates with everyone.
HUNT: Do you plan to attend Officer Islam's funeral?
CUOMO: Yes, depending on what the family wants and what arrangements they make, if appropriate. Yes.
HUNT: And have you spoken with Mayor Eric Adams about this?
CUOMO: No, I have not spoken with him about this, about this event.
HUNT: You are, of course, running for mayor challenging Mr. Adams as well as Zohran Mamdani, who, of course, won the primary.
Let's start with the mayor. How would you evaluate how he's responding to this tragedy?
CUOMO: You know, I think the mayor, the NYPD, is doing everything they can. I mean, you look at the incident and what happened. To me, this nation's law on assault rifles, assault weapons is just bizarre, Kasie.
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We've seen it over and over and over again.
When I was governor, I passed a law that bans assault rifles. Nothing more than ten bullets in a clip. The nation at one time had a law that banned the sale of assault rifles. That law lapsed. They've been unable to reenact that law.
I don't understand it. An assault rifle poses a tremendous risk. It can have a clip of 20 or 30 bullets, doesn't even allow the law enforcement an opportunity to intervene while they're changing magazines.
And then you put mental illness together with an assault rifle. And that is a -- that's TNT, that is dynamite. And listening to Mr. Miller talk about the laws in Nevada, it's -- it's too easy to buy an assault weapon or get around different state laws. It's frustrating in New York because you couldn't do it in New York.
And I believe the law that we passed actually saved lives. And by the way, I passed that law with Democrats and Republicans. We had a Republican Senate at the time but you cant stop someone from driving into the state with that weapon, which is what happened here. And it's happened on several other occasions.
HUNT: Well, and to that point, I mean, this man was able to get into this building. This is not the only building of its kind in New York City. Midtown is full of them. What does the city need to do to protect those places?
CUOMO: Yeah. Well, the specifics of how we got the gun into the building, that has to be looked at and researched and how we got past the security that was there. That's going to have to be looked at. And it's been a wake up call, I think, for New Yorkers in general.
You know, policing has become a very politicized topic in this city, as it has in many other cities across the country. We went through the whole defund the police movement and the demonization, if you will, of policing and the NYPD and this is a real reality check, and it brings you back to Earth that the NYPD, God bless them and God bless the job they do. They are heroes. They put their lives on the line every day.
And New York is the big stage, for better or for worse, for good or for bad. You have people who come here to make a statement. You had the Mangione case where he came in to kill a leader in the health industry, because he wanted to make that point and that is particular to New York.
But it happens. It will continue to happen. And if you don't have a strong police force, the best in the country, then you're going to see these types of incidents continue. You can't stop everything, but you have to do the best that you can.
HUNT: If you were to be elected mayor, considering as you've laid out, the importance of the police force, would you keep the current NYPD commissioner, Jessica Tisch? Would Jessica Tisch be your NYPD police commissioner? CUOMO: Yeah, I think she's doing a very good job. And I think there's
been a dramatic turnaround. Theres been a lot of change and corruption in the police department here in New York City over the past few years.
And she came into a very difficult situation. She stabilized the department and has gotten good marks across the board. I think it's now about adding police to the force, because I mentioned before this whole defund the police, actually reduce the police budget in New York.
I think you have to add -- I have a proposal to add 5,000 police officers to the force, which would bring it up to the level that it was in in the '90s, and they have to have more support. They've come under a lot of scrutiny, a lot of demonization. They've been called horrific names.
It's gotten to the point where the NYPD has trouble recruiting officers, and that's a totally different situation. The NYPD had the reputation as the nation's finest. I believe they still are. You had many people who wanted to get onto the force. There was a waiting list, years long.
And now, the morale is so low. You have record attrition, and you have not enough people actually to fill a recruitment class.
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So that has to be changed. More, more police officers. And then change the morale of the force where they get the respect that they deserve.
HUNT: Do you think your opponent Zohran Mamdani -- would a Mayor Mamdani help or hurt the morale of the NYPD?
CUOMO: Well, look, if you look at his prior statements, I think it would definitely hurt. Literally, he has said -- he was part of this defund the police movement. He has said that the police are a threat to public safety, that they are racists, that he would dismantle the police department.
So, these are all very harsh statements. I think it would be very hard to recruit police who would want to work for a mayor who basically called the -- not basically, did call the police officers racist. I think he would aggravate what is already a bad situation, and I don't think he understands the importance of the NYPD and the importance of public safety, you know?
And something like this happens, and then it really is a reality check for all this political theory and political hype that we have going on in this country with the extreme left postulating these theories that have no connection to reality.
HUNT: How would you evaluate Mr. Mamdani's response to this tragedy?
CUOMO: Well, first of all, he's in Uganda on vacation and I'm sure he suggested that he feels remorse. How can you not? Police officers killed, young family.
But again, he's -- he has a consistent record that has gone back for years where he has been highly critical, not just of the police department as an institution, but of the individual police officers. And you can't take back ten years of public statements and very harsh public statements and expect anyone to take you seriously.
HUNT: Worth noting he is on his way back now from Uganda in the wake of this.
The other framing you've used for your opponent, Mamdani, you've called him a threat who would be dangerous to the city. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?
CUOMO: Yeah, I think when you don't understand and you don't appreciate that, you need to ensure public safety, if you don't appreciate that in this city, on any given day, anything can happen.
You know, I was governor for 11 years, Kasie. And every morning it could be, God forbid, another 911. It could be a Hurricane Sandy. It could be a COVID pandemic.
And this city is very diverse, very concentrated. It is a delicate balance. And public safety is job one.
And when you talk about defunding the police, dismantling the police department, that they are racists, that they are anti-queer and you demoralize them to the point where they're quitting at record levels, you can't hire new police, that is -- that is a dangerous situation. You're creating a dangerous situation.
And in New York City, that's not something that you fool around with. Frankly, you don't play politics with public safety, in my opinion. And I get, you know, the slogans of the far left and I understand the politics of that. But, you know, there's politics and this government, and public safety is a fundamental governmental responsibility.
And that that line between political rhetoric and governmental responsibility is very important. And I don't think he respects it.
HUNT: You mentioned slogans, obviously, defund the police is one we've talked about today, another one that's come up in the course of his bid is globalized intifada. Now he's changed the way he's spoken about that recently.
But I'm interested to know your perspective. Do you think the way he talks about that -- again, many Jewish people believe that that's essentially a call to violence. Hence related to public safety. Do you think that that's fundamentally antisemitic?
CUOMO: I think it fuels antisemitism. You know, when somebody says, well, is he antisemitic?
HUNT: That was my next question.
CUOMO: You know, is somebody's antisemitic, is somebody's racist, is somebody a bigot? You have to have the ability to look into their soul. And that's above my pay grade.
But does it fuel antisemitism? It certainly does. Globalized intifada is understood to mean kill Jewish people globally. That's what it is understood to mean. He said he discourages the use of that term, but he's not the word police. He doesn't police words.
But as mayor, you do police words, right? We have hate crime laws in this state. I passed the strongest hate crime laws in the United States of America.
Hate speech that incites hate crimes, you do police. And it's not just the anti -- issue of antisemitism, which in and of itself -- look, you can disagree with what Israel is doing vis-a-vis Palestine. That's your right.
But you don't have a right to be antisemitic to the point where you then harass or disparage Jewish people in New York because you disagree with Israel's policy. That's the distinction.
But whether it's antisemitic or its anti-Italian, whatever it is, you need to be advocating tolerance in New York City and acceptance in New York City. We have 180 different languages spoken in our public school system. It is incumbent on the mayor, incumbent on the governor to constantly try to find tolerance and keep groups together. If you start dividing people and if you start hammering wedges into this society, you will fracture this community very quickly.
There's already tensions that are out there, racial tensions, religious tensions, ethnic tensions.
So, the leader, the mayor, the governor find a way to bring people together. They're finding their own ways to separate and divide. You want to find commonality and make diversity -- diversity a strength. And that's -- that's what this antisemitism and his harshness on the topic really says to me is he is a divisive personality.
And that just does not work in this city.
HUNT: Governor, before I let you go, worth noting. Obviously, you were out front with the covid pandemic. Then you, of course, got some criticism for how the nursing homes were handled. You then resigned from the governorship in the wake of sexual harassment allegations and a loss of support in your party. You lost the primary.
It's reasonable to ask, why should New Yorkers be wanting to give you another chance? I'd like to know, what do you think was your biggest mistake?
CUOMO: Well, look on COVID, for example, the allegations that were made against me, by the way, were made at a very heated time of the #metoo movement. I believe they were politically motivated and nothing has come of them, and they've been investigated by a number of bodies for a number of years.
On COVID, we had COVID first and worst in the United States. I did the best with the information we had, and the information changed, and we followed all the federal guidance and the federal guidance changed. If we could do it over again with what we know now, we would do it differently.
I take -- people died in this state. People died across the country. I take full responsibility for the fact that people died in New York during COVID. I wish we could have come up with a solution where nobody died from COVID.
I wish we knew then what we know now about COVID and how it spread, et cetera. But we didn't.
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And we had to learn the hard way. And the quarantine periods kept changing. And how COVID spread kept changing, hopefully we're better informed for the next time, but I take full responsibility for that.
At the end of the day, while New York was focused on intensely at the end of the day, the rate of death in nursing homes in New York was number 38 in the nation. New York was the 38th state in the rate of death in nursing homes in the nation.
So, 37 states had a higher rate of death in nursing homes than New York. Only 12 states had a lower rate of death.
I wish nobody died, but I think it's a tribute to the women and men of health care that although New York had it first and worst, we were number 37 because the first responders just did a phenomenal job.
HUNT: Governor, last and final question, the mayor, Eric Adams, had disclosed that you had your team interacted with him, suggested he drop out of the mayoral race.
Have you talked to him? Has anyone in your team talked to anyone in his team about that since then? And do you think he should drop out of the race?
CUOMO: No, that did not happen. What has happened is Governor Paterson, former governor of New York, Democrat, has put forth a proposal that in September, the stronger candidate against Assemblyman Mamdani should go forward. And the candidate who is not as strong, should defer on the theory that the best case to defeat Mr. Mamdani is a one-on-one race, rather than a multi-candidate race.
I have accepted that pledge that if I'm not the strongest candidate in the general against the assemblyman, that I would step aside. And the same proposition was posed to Mayor Adams. Both Mayor Adams and I believe that the assemblyman would be a major negative for New York City if he were to become mayor, that he doesn't have the experience that his philosophy of socialism wouldn't work in New York City.
You know, we don't do a lot of farming in New York City. We're about businesses. Were about economic opportunity, economic growth.
So, we both believe that he would be a negative for New York City. And then the question would be, if you really believe that, then put your ego aside and let the stronger candidate go forward. And I think that's right. And I've accepted that.
HUNT: All right. Former Governor Andrew Cuomo very much enjoyed the conversation.
Appreciate, of course, your remarks about the shooting. I'm sorry that that's what brought you on today, but I do appreciate your time very much, sir.
CUOMO: Thank you very much. Thank you, Kasie.
HUNT: All right. And, of course, Zohran Mamdani has an open invitation to join us here in THE ARENA as well. We'll be right back.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): I don't think there are many Republicans that want to give immunity to someone that may have been sex trafficking children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That was the chairman of the House Oversight Committee, James Comer, one day before he subpoenaed Jeffrey Epstein's associate, Ghislaine Maxwell to testify before Congress.
But his remarks aren't stopping her from trying to get immunity anyway. In a letter sent to Comer today, Maxwells attorney's offered to cooperate with Congress if they agree to major conditions, including immunity. Well, that was swiftly rejected by a committee spokeswoman.
Our panel is now here in THE ARENA, CNN contributor, host of the podcasts "On" and Pivot", Kara Swisher; CNN political analyst, national political reporter for "Axios", Alex Thompson; CNN political commentator Ashley Allison; and the former acting homeland security secretary in the Trump administration, Chad Wolf.
We also have with us CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.
Paula, let me start with you. Walk us through what are the conditions she is demanding. And let's be real, this feels like a negotiation. Like, where is this headed?
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It does. It feels exactly like a negotiation because initially, through her lawyer, she said she was not going to cooperate with lawmakers on the Hill. But now, in this letter from her lawyer, she appears open to coming up with some sort of agreement. But she laid out a long list of conditions. Now, it's clear that they are not open to this August 11th date that Comer has floated.
But among her conditions are that she wants the questions in advance. In the letter, her lawyer said to prepare adequately for any congressional deposition and to ensure accuracy and fairness, we would require the committee's questions in advance. Surprise questioning would be both inappropriate and unproductive. They're also asking for a grant of immunity. But as you noted, Comer's office has already said that is not going to happen. And these lawmakers need to appeal to their constituents who could see any grant of immunity as problematic.
Now, Maxwell's lawyer also says the interview cannot happen at the correctional facility where she's serving her sentence, and the interview would be scheduled only after the resolution of her Supreme Court petition and her forthcoming habeas petition. Now, just when it comes to the Supreme Court, if the Supreme Court takes up her appeal, that could maybe not be resolved until next June.
[16:40:04]
Now, if these conditions are not met, lawyer says she will invoke her Fifth Amendment right.
The other thing that's not really clear here, Kasie, is how public this would be, because, of course, as you know, depositions usually happen behind closed doors. But there's some concern that doing anything behind closed doors will increase distrust across constituents. Yes. But they're not really making it clear where this is going to happen.
But what's interesting is at the end of the letter, the lawyer sort of offers a fast track, if you will, to get her in front of lawmakers to answer questions. And that is clemency. So through a pardon or commutation, he writes, of course, in the alternative to all these conditions, if Ms. Maxwell were to receive clemency, she would be willing and eager to testify openly and honestly in public before Congress in Washington, D.C.
She welcomes the opportunity to share the truth and to dispel any misconceptions and misstatements that have plagued this case from the beginning.
Look, Kasie, I get he's doing his job. He is zealously advocating for his client. But this is a convicted sex trafficker. Teenage girls testified that she recruited them, groomed them, and in some cases, sexually assaulted them.
So, any effort to try to recast her as a victim will do nothing to quell this political firestorm.
HUNT: All right. Paula Reid for us. Paula, thank you very much.
Kara Swisher --
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think we should get our cup of cocoa and a warm blanket. This is insane. She's in jail, this woman. And she shouldn't get any immunity. She had plenty of chances to answer these questions before. She was -- she almost was -- had a perjury allegation against her. They took that back after she was convicted. But she's a -- she's a monster in so many ways. And so, she should
either talk or not talk and do it for the right reasons, which she obviously won't. But this is a nobody should give her any immunity, and anyone who does is part and parcel to the problem here.
HUNT: Well, it seems like House Republicans know that.
ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, but Donald Trump hasn't ruled it out, which is actually what makes this such a fascinating. It's the first time in Trump's second term where his own members, his most loyal members, have turned on him and have a significant disagreement. And there's a real split between his base. Is the base more loyal to, you know, the belief that Jeffrey Epstein was part of a much larger conspiracy? Or are they more loyal to just whatever Donald Trump wants on any given day?
HUNT: Yeah. Well, and to that point. Chad wolf, I mean, there is extraordinary real tension here. I mean, just on Friday, you know, you can really see this in a lot of the podcasting space, right, where some of them had been Bernie Sanders supporters. And then they went all in for Trump. It's people like Joe Rogan.
This is part of Rogan's podcast, an interview he did with a former CIA officer, Mike Baker, on Friday. Just listen to how he put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE BAKER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: The mob wants to eat, right? And they've been throwing red meat to the mob about Epstein files now for, for years.
JOE ROGAN, PODCAT HOST: It's part of how they got elected.
BAKER: Right. And so, whoever in their communications group or in their strategic thinking arena, in the administration thought, you know, that we can get away with just saying there's nothing to see here, they should be fired, right? Because there's no way you can satisfy this, this mob. And now the mob is oddly bipartisan because it's got the Dems and it's got, you know, part of the base of Trump in there.
ROGAN: Yeah.
BAKER: And they're all, you know, screaming to have this, goddammit, just released this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And, of course, the president was forced to talk about it on his trip to Scotland, suddenly saying, you know, trying to explain that, well, Jeffrey Epstein was hiring away women, girls in some cases from his spa at Mar-a-Lago.
I mean, is there a head that's going to roll in the administration over this? I mean, what should the president be doing? CHAD WOLF, FORMER ACTING SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, look, I
think that the president's been pretty clear about this. He wants more accountability. He's asking the Department of Justice to unseal some of these files. I think it's really important --
HUNT: Is it though?
WOLF: I think he is. Yeah. I think -- look, and -- because what the American people want, right, they're concerned about a couple of different things. They're concerned about the human trafficking, the child sex trafficking component of this.
HUNT: It's all very concerning, which is why Joe Rogan and others are saying, look, this is what you campaigned on. This is in part what you want on. We want to understand really what happened here. That's why, you know, they want Maxwell to answer questions. And I agree, no immunity, right, to do that.
So, they really want the truth to come out. And the question is how do you get that out? And I think that's what they're struggling with. I would say that overall, the administration has maybe misstepped here a little bit on how they communicated this to the American people.
But the American people -- they want some accountability and transparency all at the same time. And they've been -- they've been talked to by President Trump, his team and others about how this -- the truth will eventually come out. And I think the American people are saying, now is the time. We're seven months into this administration. Give us, give us some facts.
HUNT: You promised this, you promised this, right?
And so, Ashley Allison, the president's actually flying back to Washington from Scotland, basically, as we are sitting here talking and we don't have the sound of it yet because it's not been transmitted. But the president went to the back of the plane. He talked to reporters at some length.
[16:45:01]
And we do have a transcript of some of this. And again, this kind of underscores, just the longer this sits out there, the less we know, the more the president of the United States is saying things like this, right?
People were taken out of the spa, hired by him. Epstein, in other words, gone. And other people would come and complain. This guy is taking people from the spa. I didn't know that.
And then when I heard about it, I told him, I said, listen, I don't want you taking our people, whether it's the spa or not spa. I don't want them taking people. And he was fine. And then not too long after that, he did it again and I said, out of here, this is his new explanation for why he had a falling out with Jeffrey Epstein.
And then he's forced to, you know, he's talking about Virginia Giuffre, who is, of course, one of the prominent victims, accusers here, who took her own life. But he says that he thinks that she worked at the spa. I think that was one of the people. Yeah, he stole her. This is where we are.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I mean, well, first, you can't steal people because people aren't owned by anybody but their own selves. So that language in and of itself is troubling.
There are --
HUNT: The way that Jeffrey Epstein treated people arguably --
ALLISON: It could be -- it could be like he treated them as though they were trafficked slaves basically.
A couple of things. One, Ghislaine Maxwell should be under the prison. There's no -- there's no -- there's no place for even her voice in this moment. She had an opportunity to speak. She chose not to. She needs to serve out her sentence.
I don't even think Congress needs to hear from her. There are victims that are still available that probably could give them more information. We are -- I'm glad you talked about one of them, but many of their voices haven't been centered at all in this story, which is highly problematic.
And now this administration is reaping what they have sown. They pushed this as an effort to demonize Democrats. I'll be honest, whoever is in the Epstein files, if they did something to women and children, they all need to go down.
I am with that. I don't -- this is not a political statement one way or the other, but there are many components of this. And Donald Trump is actually having to deal with some of the conspiracy theories that he has pushed, and his supporters have pushed, and what he will do with it. I don't think he's been as explicit as you are suggesting, but there's always an opportunity.
SWISHER: The problem is, if you -- when this first happened, everyone was like, oh, it'll be -- it'll move on. Like most of the Trump stuff happens. And I was like, this is a pillar of the online movement, especially the MAGA movement, especially that branch, the QAnon movement. This is -- if this this is a bearing wall for everything.
And so, I think -- Trump is actually very canny when it comes to social media, when it comes to these conspiracy theories. Actually, he's used them well for himself in various ways.
In this case, he does. I don't think he quite understands how much of a pillar it is of this group of people and how, how, how much a part of it, not just the QAnon people who are largely crazy in a lot of ways, it's even the Joe Rogans and others. It's this idea of the deep state. Things are being kept -- things are being secret.
And it's made problematic by the fact that he was friends with him for a very long time, and now we don't even know why they broke up like we don't know, was it -- because he employment poaching was the reason? Not because he was before he was creepy.
So that's the problem is all this messaging is all over the place.
HUNT: Well, here is my question on that though, Kara, is, I mean, is the fact that he is refusing to release these files, evidence that he understands how damaging his name being in them would be?
SWISHER: I don't know, none of us know. And some of the stuff he can't -- the autopsy report, there's all kinds of things that can be released. And so, this is a beast that needs to be fed, which he has kept in the basement. That's the problem.
And it will not -- it will not listen to him anymore. And it wants things. And the more confusion online, the more it creates online confusion and conspiracy. That's how conspiracy theories work. And that's the real problem for him, is it's not going away in any way.
WOLF: This is about attacking Donald Trump. Let's -- let's just be clear about this. If there was anything in these files, the Biden DOJ would have released it. It would have been leaked. It would have been leaked years ago, right?
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: Well, here's the thing. Donald Trump can put them all out tomorrow, period.
WOLF: And so he has been he has been sued, deposed more than any other individual. And I think that, I mean, that's why he wants to turn the page because he's like, there's bigger issues at play here.
But I do agree, the American people are less concerned about Trump in this, but they're more concerned about what really happened here.
ALLISON: And I never want to talk about Epstein again. But this is not about attacking Donald Trump. This is about people who were victimized.
HUNT: And we unfortunately have to -- we have been having this conversation for weeks now. We can have some more of it tomorrow.
Coming up next, new reporting on a possible effort by Republicans to change Senate rules and speed up some of the president's stalled nominees, like this man, Emil Bove. We're going to talk with one key Republican, Senator John Kennedy, will be here, live in THE ARENA.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:54:09]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): I want you to look me in the eye and swear to your higher -- higher being when you answer this question. You make a deal, a political deal to dismiss the charges against Mayor Adams?
EMIL BOVE, TRUMP JUDICIAL NOMINEE: Absolutely not.
KENNEDY: Did anybody else that you witnessed make a political deal to dismiss the charges?
BOVE: Absolutely not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. That was Emil Bove, Trump's nominee to a lifetime federal judgeship, testifying last month about the Department of Justice's decision to drop corruption charges against the New York City mayor, Eric Adams.
Now, as the Senate prepares to vote on Bove's nomination as soon as tonight, "The Washington Post" is reporting that a whistleblower has come forward with evidence suggesting that Bove misled lawmakers during that testimony about his role in the Adams case.
[16:55:01]
Separately, two other whistleblowers have said that Bove told DOJ subordinates that they may need to ignore court orders.
Joining us now is Republican Senator from Louisiana, John Kennedy. You saw him on that clip -- in that clip, because he sits on the Senate Judiciary Committee. He did vote last month to advance his nomination.
Senator Kennedy, thanks very much for being here.
So, I got to be like straight with you. Did you believe what he said there, that --
KENNEDY: Yes.
HUNT: -- at all?
KENNEDY: Yes. I did.
The biggest charge against Bove, Mr. Bove, is that supposedly he was willing to advise his clients to defy a court order. He denies that, of course. I asked him about it in committee. I've said repeatedly in the judiciary committee in front of God and country, that if you disagree with the federal judges' order, you don't have the right to ignore it.
You can cuss it, you can discuss it, you can criticize it within the bounds of judicial and legal ethics. You can appeal it. But if your client tells you to ignore it. Then you quit. That's what I was taught, and I think that's the law.
And I have repeatedly examined Patel, Bondi, all of President Trump's nominees. So I asked Bove about it and he said I didn't do it.
The other point I'd make, I know we have a lot of whistleblowers, but let me see how I can put this case. If everyone is a racist, no one's a racist. If everyone is corrupt, no one is corrupt. If my Democratic colleagues are going to trot out whistleblowers two and three at a time, every time we have a nominee that they don't agree with, you know, they sort of lose their efficacy. And that's the situation we're in right now.
HUNT: Well, I mean, your Republican colleague, Senator Collins said this, quote, Mr. Bove's political profile and some of the actions he's taken in his leadership roles at the Department of Justice caused me to conclude that he would not serve as an impartial jurist.
Would you include Senator Collins in that group of people you were just talking about?
KENNEDY: Well, look, Senator Collins is in a reelection campaign, and --
HUNT: Fair enough.
KENNEDY: Unless you're God's perfect idiot, you know that Maine is not, for example, Louisiana. I don't mean any disrespect to Susan. She's a wonderful person, but she's not going to vote for Bove under any circumstances. I get that. I understand.
HUNT: Fair enough.
All right. Let me ask you about something else. Of course, at the forefront here, we were just talking about Jeffrey Epstein at some length.
The president has in recent days shifted his story about why he decided not to be friends with Jeffrey Epstein anymore. Now, talking about women who worked at the spa at Mar-a-Lago, who Jeffrey Epstein apparently hired, or the word the president used was stole. Does this raise any red flags to you?
KENNEDY: Well, here's what I think about the Epstein mess. First, it's not a political issue. It's a -- it's a moral issue.
Epstein was a pig. P-I-G. Pig. And this is no country for creepy old men.
Epstein trafficked young women, some of whom were minors. The American people want to know, and they are entitled to know who, if anyone, he trafficked these young women to besides himself. And if such people exist, why they weren't prosecuted.
Now, that's the bottom line. And the Justice Department, sooner or later is going to have to answer this. They haven't done a very good job so far. I think even the Justice Department would admit that. And they've lost a lot of -- a lot of credibility.
So, them saying, well, trust us, there was nobody else. The American people aren't going to believe that. Justice is going to have to show us the receipts. Now, how they do that, that's above my pay grade, but they're going to have to do it.
HUNT: Are you confident that Donald Trump is not one of the people to whom, as you say, there, these women were trafficked?
KENNEDY: I don't believe he was. I think he knew Epstein many years ago. They were running buddies. I don't know the details of it, but my own personal opinion is that he's not involved. But it sure does. I don't, and I don't know this for a fact, but it certainly does appear.
Or one could marshal a persuasive argument. I'll put it that way, that there's some very important people involved, and the American people are curious and they're entitled to be curious. And justice can't just say, well, you've got to trust us. You know, that's -- that's their -- they've dug up more snakes than they can kill. By, by some of the things they've mishandled. And they, they've just -- they've got to show the receipts.
HUNT: Fair enough. I don't want to cut you off, but unfortunately, it is time for me to hand over to my colleague Jake Tapper. So thanks to you.
And hi, Jake.
KENNEDY: Tell Tapper to pay his taxes.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: I hope that -- he did. Yes.
