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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Rallies In Chicago As Trump Vows Immigration Crackdown; Judge Blocks Trump Administration Move To Deport Guatemalan Children; New: Former CDC Directors Slam Recent Moves By RFK Jr.; Putin, Xi, Modi Try to Signal Unity At Security Summit. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired September 01, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: They last 30 to 40 minutes. Victory is achieved by forcing your opponent on his back. Of course, that can be pretty difficult considering all of that oil.

Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. We're going to be back alongside Brianna Keilar tomorrow. You can catch me on Erin Burnett. She has the night off later tonight starting at 7:00 p.m.

But for now, we're going to send it to THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT.

Thanks so much for being with us.

(MUSIC)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Protests on the streets of Chicago as city officials there resist pressure from the White House on crime and immigration.

Let's head into THE ARENA.

A showdown between President Trump and Chicago's Democratic leader. Sources saying that National Guard troops could hit the city streets this week.

Plus, a stark warning from nine former leaders of the CDC. Ahead, why they say RFK Jr. is endangering the health of every single American.

And then Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping standing side by side as China looks to expand its influence in a world shaken by Trump's second term.

(MUSIC)

BROWN: Hello, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. Kasie Hunt is off. I'm Pamela Brown.

And today in Chicago, Labor Day protests take on an anti-Trump tone as the city braces for a federal immigration crackdown expected to begin in the coming days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MAYOR BRANDON JOHNSON (D), CHICAGO: No federal troops in the city of Chicago. No militarized force in the city of Chicago. We're going to defend our democracy in the city of Chicago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That is Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson. Over the weekend, he signed an executive order affirming local control of the city's police and instructing them not to cooperate with federal officials on law enforcement or immigration matters.

Multiple sources familiar with the planning of this operation tell CNN it's expected to begin by Friday. And the National Guard troops could be involved.

And as that happens, a separate immigration fight is playing out in the nation's courts. On Sunday, a federal judge temporarily blocked the government from sending scores of unaccompanied children back to Guatemala. This order came as some were already on board planes preparing to take off.

Lawyers for some of the children say that they could face abuse if returned. While the Trump administration argues that this is being done in coordination with the Guatemalan government to reunite them with their legal guardians.

My panel is here, along with CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House and CNN's Priscilla Alvarez in our Washington bureau.

Kristen, let's kick it off with you. Take us through the president's plan for Chicago.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Pamela, we're still learning more details about this. What we have heard from the governor is that there's been no communication between the White House and any officials in Illinois, the governor said in an interview that he believed they should be coordinating with him.

But one thing we're hearing from the White House is that they're saying this is all about immigration. They're trying to find the line. They're saying it's not all the things that he said about crime, President Trump has said about crime, but this is about immigration in particular.

Now, this is what we know is being planned for this Chicago operation, that the preparations are underway and that includes potentially sending armored vehicles in the coming days. That ICE border protection and surge of federal agents is expected by Friday. And the National Guard is going to be on standby.

Now, the reason I point out that White House officials are trying to make this distinction between what we've seen in Washington, D.C., and what we are going to see in Chicago is likely because of the fact that there are rules that the federal and laws that the federal government has to abide by when they are dealing with a state, unlike when they are dealing with D.C. and home rule. Now, this is what we heard the Department of Homeland Security,

secretary say over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We've already had ongoing operations with ICE in Chicago and throughout Illinois and other states, making sure that were upholding our laws. But we do intend to add more resources to those operations. We will continue to go after the worst of the worst across the country, like President Trump has told us to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: So, clearly, they're trying to make this just about immigration, saying they are expanding on programs they already had in place, not about the fact that they were coming in here and dealing with crime, which, of course, is not what we're hearing from President Trump, who has been posting over the weekend, last several days all about the crime rate in Chicago, not necessarily tying it to immigration.

So, we'll see how this plays out. Again, the administration, the federal government is going to have to jump through a lot of hoops. They're going to face a lot more pushback with these states as they try to expand what they're doing in Washington, D.C., than they did here in the district.

BROWN: Yeah, no, that's a very good point. The district, they have more authorities than these other states.

Priscilla, to bring you in on another immigration issue. You have been covering the administration's plan to repatriate hundreds of Guatemalan children. Tell us what is behind this and the federal judge's decision to block their removal.

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, the Trump administration has been fixated on unaccompanied migrant children for months now. They say that the Biden administration mishandled these children and their cases.

[16:05:02]

And it is something that they have issued multiple policies on. But this move to repatriate them to Guatemala is unprecedented, according to my sources.

What we know from today is that the Justice Department confirmed that 74 children who were placed on planes yesterday to be sent back to Guatemala have been returned to U.S. custody as these proceedings are ongoing. We also heard from the Guatemalan president, who said that his country is prepared to receive these minors on a weekly basis as soon as the legal dispute here in the United States is resolved.

But to rewind here, what happened was late Saturday into the early morning hours of Sunday, attorneys who represent these children were notified that their clients were going to be repatriated to Guatemala. Meanwhile, the shelters where these kids are being taken care of were told to prepare the children for discharge within a matter of hours, collecting their personal belongings. Any medications that they were on, as well as snacks for the flight.

Now, all of this caused alarm among attorneys who were blindsided that their clients were going to be returned because they are still in immigration proceedings in the United States. The children we're talking about here, pamela, are children who arrived to the United States southern border alone. They are waiting in custody to be reunited with U.S. based family members, where they continue through these proceedings to determine if they have protection in the United States.

So, a lawsuit was filed early on Sunday. In fact, the federal judge said herself during proceedings yesterday that she was awoken at 2;30 in the morning as all of this was ongoing and she ultimately blocked their removal for now.

Now, the Trump administration is pushing back, saying that this is being done in coordination with the Guatemalan government and that they are being reunited with their parent or legal guardian in country. The reason, however, this is so complicated is because for some of these kids, being returned home isn't the best option for them because that is what they were fleeing. In fact, in the lawsuit, a 10- year-old says that her mother is deceased and she was fleeing abuse and neglect from family members at home in Guatemala.

And finally, note that there are cases where children do choose to go back to their country of origin. But even in those cases, Pamela, they have to go before an immigration judge so that the judge can unpack why that is and to determine whether they truly are better off in their country of origin than in the United States.

So, this is a vulnerable population, one the administration is focused on. And now, we'll have to wait to see what happens in proceedings in the days to come.

BROWN: All right. A lot of information there.

Priscilla Alvarez, Kristen Holmes, thank you so much.

And my panel joins me now in THE ARENA. CNN contributor and "New York Times" journalist and podcast host Lulu Garcia-Navarro, CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg, Democratic strategist Adrienne Elrod, and CNN's senior political commentator Scott Jennings.

Great to have you all with me on this Labor Day. Thanks for coming in on the holiday.

So, Jonah, I want to start with you on what Illinois' governor, J.B. Pritzker, said yesterday in his latest back and forth over the president's plans.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D), ILLINOIS: It's clear that in secret, they're planning this -- well, it's an invasion with U.S. troops if they, in fact, do that. And the other thing is, you know, they ought to be coordinating with local law enforcement, but they don't want to do that either. And I must say, it's disruptive. It's dangerous. It tends to inflame passions on the ground when they don't let us know what their plans are and when we can't coordinate with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: His use of the word "invasion", is that how you see it?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Invasion? No. Look, I don't like these National Guard deployments. I think that they're -- they should come with an invitation from the governor, as historically the case. In the case of D.C., it's a little more complicated because it's within the president's power to do it here.

But you know, what's going on in Chicago is very bad in terms of crime. It's not a crisis. And I think that the problem is it's one of these, you know, sort of Baptist and bootlegger problems where you have -- this is great for Pritzker politically, and it's great for Trump politically to argue about crime, to argue about invasion and all these kinds of things. I just don't think it's a -- it's a wise policy.

BROWN: You were smirking when you were listening to him.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, surging federal agents, ICE, CBP to a state that has over a half a million illegal immigrants in it, many of them live in Chicago -- I mean, the federal government is going to enforce federal law. I hear Pritzker complaining that there's no coordination. But I also heard the mayor say he's ordered the police department not to cooperate with federal officials on this immigration crackdown. So how are you supposed to cooperate if the mayor is ordering his own police force not to do so?

The fact is, you have people in this country illegally. The president has promised since he was running his campaign last year, that he planned to crack down on illegal immigration. He's sending federal agents to Illinois to do that.

[16:10:00]

I'm not entirely certain why everybody is so angry or surprised about this. I mean, we're here enforcing federal immigration law in a city that you can argue about, whether it's a crisis or not. But there were 53 shootings over the weekend. It's pretty violent.

GOLDBERG: We should also be clear. They were talking about sending the National Guard in long before they were talking about this ICE operation. These two things have now been merged.

(CROSSTALK)

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I was saying -- I was literally about to say this.

JENNINGS: He's saying they're on standby.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You know, what is it? What is happening here in Chicago? First, it's about crime, if you listen to Trump. Now, apparently it's about immigration enforcement.

I mean, when you are talking about -- no wonder people are confused. No wonder people are alarmed because if it is not clear what the purpose of these kinds of operations are, people are going to assume the worst. I mean, here in D.C., apparently it's about crime, except most of what we've seen has been immigration enforcement.

Now you're going to move to a U.S. city, Chicago, where apparently it is about immigration enforcement if it's the president. But it's not. It's about crime. Like, what are we talking about?

JENNINGS: Are they one and the same?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, no, people --

JENNINGS: If you're in the country illegally, you're a criminal.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's not the same thing.

BROWN: I mean, it's a civil offense if you cross the border.

JENNINGS: Oh my gosh.

(CROSSTALK)

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But wait a second. You are trying to make here. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You are trying to make -- you are trying to say that anyone in this country illegally is some kind of murderer, murderer or killer.

Crime --

JENNINGS: No.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Crime is a different thing. Shootings, muggings. The president talks about are different than immigration enforcement. Those are two different things. They've been there. They're dealt with by different groups of law enforcement. They are two different things.

To conflate them is disingenuous.

JENNINGS: I don't know why they wouldn't all need to be dealt with.

BROWN: Let me just jump in because you talked about immigration and then you brought up what happened in Chicago over the weekend. Those are two different things. The 53 shot in Chicago over the weekend. That is true.

And on that note, ABC News had this headline, 53 shot over the weekend in Chicago as governor rejects Trump's threat to send in National Guard.

If you look at it through the crime prism here, what do you say to people, Adrienne, who see that headline and say, well, maybe this isn't such a bad idea.

ADRIENNE ELROD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I think look, here's -- here's what's happening. I can at least speak to what's happening here in Washington, D.C., where I've lived for the past 30 years.

You know, yes, crime is an issue here, but sending in the National Guard is not the way to solve for this. Put more cops on the street. Give the federal government, the Washington, D.C., more funds to hire more cops, so you actually have more community policing. So, you have police officers who are integrated into the community that are that are helping to solve these issues of crime.

Instead, you're sending in the National Guard, which is causing intimidation, which is causing a lot of discord among communities. Weve all seen the viral videos of people being yanked off of their scooters and thrown into cars with people in masks that you're like, are these actually National Guard members? Are they ICE members? Who are these people?

So, the end of the day, I do agree that, yes, it's politically good if we're going to talk about politics, politically good for Pritzker and I guess politically good for Trump. But at the end of the day, Trump is trying to use the National Guard in a way that's not being received well in communities. And I think he is going down a very dangerous path. If he's using the National Guard for this, is he going to decide that he doesn't like the way the elections are being run?

BROWN: And let me ask you, Scott --

ELROD: Is he going to use the National Guard for that?

JENNINGS: Can I just respond to the National Guard? You told me. Haven't been here all month. I've been here every week this month since they've been deployed.

ELROD: I've been here all summer, Scott, except for the last few weeks. I live here in Washington.

JENNINGS: Since National Guard has been deployed.

ELROD: Yeah. You cannot sit here and tell me that. I don't know how its affecting my community, that I've lived in for a very long time.

JENNINGS: Here's what I'm telling you, I've been walking around here all weekend and every week for the last several weeks since they've been deployed. Here's what I've seen. I've seen extremely friendly National Guard members having extremely friendly interactions. I've seen them pose for numerous pictures.

Other than a few sore heads out doing protesting, who tend to protest everything. I think they have been extremely well received from my observations, and they've been quite a bit. I've been here for most of the last month.

ELROD: Is that a good use of our National Guard --

JENNINGS: Yeah.

ELROD: -- to come into communities?

JENNINGS: We've arrested thousands of criminals taking illegal guns off the street, picked up illegal aliens, and gotten some pretty --

(CROSSTALK)

ELROD: And intimidated people in communities and created a discord across --

(CROSSTALK)

GARCIA-NAVARRO: The numbers don't back up the contention that this has been hugely effective. What you've seen absolutely is a huge diminution of crime going down, as you one would expect, when you have a huge surge of law enforcement. But obviously, you can't sustain that, right? That isn't policing, that isn't looking at the long term, you know, kind of plan for community. That is a surge of forces which happen in many places. And it just shows that there really aren't any policies in place here.

But what you've seen in terms of arrests, actually not much. Many more arrests than you have seen at other periods of time here.

So, you know, what is the actual effect of this crime surge? I think you'll look back and say, sure, crime went down for a very limited period of time.

JENNINGS: The mayor says that.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: The mayor, the mayor -- very limited, limited period of time. What does that mean for the actual safety and security of Washington, D.C. long term, what are the policies here?

National Guard on the streets, you would have to admit, is not a policy proposal.

ELROD: I want a mayor of Washington, D.C., which is give me more law enforcement, give me more funds so that I can hire more police officers so that we have a very, very effective community policing strategy.

[16:15:05]

HUNT: Right. Let me --

ELROD: Instead of sending in the National Guard who doesn't know this community, who doesn't know, you know, who doesn't have these relationships in these neighborhoods?

HUNT: Let me get to this other topic before we run out of time, because I think it's really important. Its on the immigration front about these Guatemalan children who were woken up in the middle of the night, put on planes without seeing a judge.

Jonah, what do you make of this?

GOLDBERG: Yeah. Look, I think it points to the schizophrenia of this issue broadly that we've already been talking about. You ran a clip of Kristi Noem saying we're going to continue to go after the worst of the worst, and then the other part of this story is, okay, so you're going to send a bunch of these kids back to Guatemala. Are those the worst of the worst? I think the messaging is sort of all over the place on this.

On the merits, look, I am willing to believe that pretty much everybody is trying to be a good faith actor to some extent on this. It sounds like the Trump administration followed what a judge told them to do. It sounds like the judge said, you're not dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's. Sending some kids home who shouldn't be sent home or sending some kids home who should be sent home. It's complicated and difficult.

I just don't like the sort of, oh, it's Labor Day weekend. Let's get these kids on the plane as quick as possible.

BROWN: The judge said, the judge, for her part, said she was surprised by the timing of this.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, when I talked to immigration attorneys, I've covered immigration for a very, very long time and what they will say about this iteration of the Trump administration is exactly this what you are seeing is the flouting of procedures, people being sent to places without due process, lawyers trying to get in touch with their clients, and being absolutely unable to. It is a black hole of a system, whereas before that was simply not the case.

You need due process, especially when you're dealing with children. You cannot have children suddenly being put on a plane in the middle of the night on a weekend and not have their lawyers being apprised of this, not having any kind of sense of them having oversight by a judge.

BROWN: Are you comfortable with how this was done, Scott?

JENNINGS: So, we're for child separation from their families now. We used to be against that. Now I guess we're for it. Here's what happened --

(CROSSTALK)

GARCIA-NAVARRO: These children have family in this country.

JENNINGS: And their parents are in Guatemala. And the Guatemalan government.

BROWN: Well, not all. Not all. And so, ten-year-old little girl who lost her mother and then she said she was abused in Guatemala and came over. It's more complicated than just clear cut they all have parents in Guatemala.

JENNINGS: These children were abandoned here, somehow. They've been, you know, sent here for some period of time. They're trying to reunite them with their families where they're from, with a government that has asked for their return and wants to facilitate their return. This all happened under the Biden administration. Now, a Biden judge is trying to keep them here and to further this policy of keeping them separated from the families that they have in Guatemala.

I don't -- again, everybody is upset about this, and I don't know why they're trying to reunite them with their families.

BROWN: But are you comfortable with how it was done, right? I understand you're taking the administrations line on this, but woke it up in the middle of the night over a holiday weekend, not having a chance to go before a judge to contest this or explain why they want to go back to Guatemala or anything like that and put aboard these planes. And then, you know, then the lawyers step in, a judge steps in, and here we are.

JENNINGS: My general view is that there are families in Guatemala, and the Guatemalan government want them back. We should send them back.

BROWN: But then why do why not do it during business hours?

ELROD: Yeah, Labor Day weekend.

BROWN: Why do it in the middle of the night or in the morning?

JENNINGS: Does it matter?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, it sure does.

ELROD: Seems a little fishy to me. You don't think it's a weird time to do this?

JENNINGS: Just a way to keep them separated from their families?

ELROD: No, I want to, I think children, I think lulus exactly right. There is a due process system in place in our -- in our government.

JENNINGS: We're not saying they're criminals. We're just saying they should go home.

ELROD: And children deserve to be able to go in front of a judge and defend why they're here. These are children, Scott, that we're talking.

JENNINGS: Do you think they made the conscious choice to come here on their own, or were they sent here for some other reason?

(CROSSTALK)

GARCIA-NAVARRO : None of us know that we're dealing with some of these children. None of us know the stories of these children.

JENNINGS: I know their story. They've sent here --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Their lawyers know the stories of these children and that is the point. That's why we have due process in this country, because --

JENNINGS: They're not criminals.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- lawyers know their stories. And the only other thing I'll say is that we don't have Biden judges and Trump judges and Bush judges. We have the legal system of this country that everyone needs to follow.

BROWN: All right. Up next, a unified front from nine former CDC leaders. What they're now saying about recent decisions by Health Secretary RFK Jr. We're going to talk with someone who served as the assistant health secretary and the president's first term.

Plus, Congress is on track for a vote as soon as this week to force the release of the Epstein files, as victims prepare to meet with lawmakers on Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): What will be explosive is the September 3rd press conference that both of us are having with 10 Epstein victims, many who have never spoken out before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:24:10]

BROWN: Nearly a week after the ouster of CDC Director Susan Monarez set off a wave of high-level resignations, there is a new rebuke today of Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s leadership of the agency. Nine former directors and acting directors of the CDC have come together to pen a searing opinion piece, writing, quote, what Kennedy has done to the CDC and to our nation's public health system over the past several months is unlike anything we have ever seen at the agency, and unlike anything our country has ever experienced.

The directors who collectively spent 100 years at CDC site, among other things, Kennedy's firing of thousands of health workers, his cancellation of investments into promising medical research, his dismissal of an expert advisory panel, and the termination of U.S. support for a global vaccination program. All these things, the directors say, should quote, alarm every American, regardless of political leanings.

[16:25:04]

Joining us now is Admiral Brett Giroir, the former assistant secretary for health at HHS. He helped lead President Trump's COVID-19 response as a member of his White House coronavirus task force. Thank you so much for coming on, Admiral. Let me just start by getting

your reaction to that op-ed. Do you think that Secretary Kennedy is on track to make America wealthy again, as promised?

ADMIRAL BRETT GIROIR, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR HEALTH, HHS: Well, thank you, Pamela, for having me on.

What I think America needs is MAHA without the mayhem. But, unfortunately, Secretary Kennedy's unsupported anti-vaccine opinions are really poisoning the president's ability to get the scientific part of the MAHA agenda passed. And it's even threatening incredible programs that were done during the first term, like the mRNA vaccines that saved millions of people.

So, I do think this is a critical time. And thus today, I wrote very openly my opinion about the cancellation of mRNA vaccine programs, which I think puts our nation at risk of pandemics and our national security.

BROWN: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit more about that op ed that you wrote. You criticized the decision, as you point out, to shut down the 22 federally funded mRNA vaccine programs.

If you could just explain to us why these programs, in your view, are so important and why taking them away really sets America back in your view?

GIROIR: Well, it's very clear. And I have no vested interest in any mRNA programs or any vaccine programs whatsoever. And mRNA is not a silver bullet to solve everything. But mRNA vaccines have the incredible advantage of being able to make a candidate vaccine within a couple of weeks, and that we can have guaranteed production of them with at large scale within a couple of months.

There's no other vaccine program that can do this, and this is why Operation Warp Speed focused on mRNA vaccine. And you saw those vaccines come out and save millions of people. If we cancel these contracts, and more importantly, if we continue to provide disinformation about mRNA so that people don't trust them and they will not take them, we are putting ourselves at great risk for the next pandemic, whether its influenza or an unknown agent.

But we're also canceling important research into things like HIV vaccine or personalized vaccines against cancer. So, mRNA is not the solution to everything, but it is a critical component of our national security, our economic strategy to beat China on biotechnology. And it's certainly something I want to have around for my grandchildren as they grow up.

BROWN: And you mentioned the coronavirus program that you helped lead for President Trump. He actually posted about that on Truth Social, saying it is very important that the drug companies justify the success of their various COVID drugs, with CDC being ripped apart over this question. I want the answer and I want it now. I hope Operation Warp Speed was as brilliant as many say it was.

Why do you think he is questioning the efficacy of the drugs produced by his own program?

GIROIR: To me this is classic President Trump. I've been in the Oval Office with him many times, that he wants to hear all the opinions there and make a decision. And he's obviously been hearing from people from the Secretary Kennedy camp and the people who are anti-vaccine, anti-drug company, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And he really wants to understand that. Look, when we had the opportunity to ban kid friendly flavors of cigarette, of e-cigarettes, he had the American Academy of Pediatrics and tobacco-free kids there with Juul and R.J. Reynolds. So, in my opinion, this is what the president does.

But I can tell you there is overwhelming evidence, as incontrovertible that Operation Warp Speed and the mRNA vaccines that came out of them saved millions of lives. And it is still our best chance to respond to a pandemic or something that could be on us, like avian influenza.

So, I am confident that if the president gets in the room with the right people, he will understand that what you're seeing from Secretary Kennedy, his advisers and the fully replaced advisory committee at the CDC does not represent science, and it does not represent our nation's best interests.

BROWN: So, are you concerned that he is falling prey to what you view as misinformation from Secretary Kennedy?

GIROIR: You know, I don't know what's in the president's head, but I am -- I am very concerned because, look, Secretary Kennedy is -- has really stacked the deck, right. He came in not with an open mind, as he said in his hearings. But it's very clear that his anti-vaccine sentiments are almost an obsession in my mind.

[16:30:02]

And this MAHA with mayhem that's going on is exactly what we don't need in the country.

When you replace all the scientific people at the advisory committee, when somebody like the CDC director, who I don't know well, but I spent several days with very impressed with Dr. Monarez. I know Dr. Houry, the CMO. Dr. Dan Jernigan, former captain.

These are people with incredible experience who are nonpolitical. They are completely working on behalf of the United States. Could have jobs making ten times as much money. When this kind of brain trust leaves, our country is at risk. There's no doubt about that in my mind.

BROWN: All right. Admiral Brett Giroir, thank you so much for your time and for all of your public service and the health space. We appreciate it.

GIROIR: Thank you.

BROWN: Coming up, a small gesture with the potential for some pretty big ramifications. Who Vladimir Putin was seen holding hands with and why the world is taking notice.

But first, Congress gearing up for what one lawmaker predicts will be an explosive week, a long awaited vote to force the release of information related to Jeffrey Epstein is finally expected as lawmakers return from August recess.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:38]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): We're bringing in the families and the attorneys of the victims Tuesday afternoon to talk to the House Oversight Committee. This will be Republicans and Democrats, because we're going to make this information public. That's what the American people want. When we travel around all of our districts, that's one of the things that people ask, when -- when are we going to see the Epstein files?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, tomorrow, Congress returns from their summer recess, and the House is set to pick up where it left off, debating release of the Epstein files.

Well, the House Oversight Committee will meet with victims' families and attorneys tomorrow. As you heard, Representatives Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie are set to host ten victims on the steps of the capitol on Wednesday. The pair introduced a discharge petition that would force the DOJ to release the files.

All right. My panel is back with me.

First to you. So, Speaker Johnson called for an early recess to avoid voting on the release of the files. And I just want to play what he said to my colleague John Berman on Friday about Ro Khanna's and Thomas Massie's discharge petition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: If they do get the signatures, will you allow that to come to a vote on the floor?

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We might not even wait for that. We have our own resolutions to affect this same thing. But the process is playing out as it should. And very soon, the American people will have that information, and they should have had it all along. That's my view.

BERMAN: But you can't guarantee there'll be a vote on the discharge petition.

JOHNSON: There probably will be a vote of some sense, but we've got to get everybody collected again and get -- build consensus around that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: How do you see this playing out? Do you think there's going to be fireworks on Capitol Hill?

ELROD: Boy, I mean, Pam, I got to say, watching speaker Johnson try to walk this tightrope where he's like, I know what the base wants. I know what the MAGA base wants. They want this to keep going. They want they want more answers.

And then trying to also, you know, protect his guy, Donald Trump, just watching him try to strike this balance is really --

JENNINGS: Protect him from what?

ELROD: Because Donald Trump doesn't want the information released. He doesn't want -- he doesn't want.

JENNINGS: You said protect him. Protect him from what.

ELROD: Donald Trump wants this to go away. But the MAGA base does not.

JENNINGS: I just want to know what you think he needs to be protected from.

ELROD: From this information coming out.

JENNINGS: What information?

ELROD: From the information from DOJ.

JENNINGS: About what? What would he need protection from?

ELROD: You know exactly what im talking.

JENNINGS: No. I want you to go and make the allegation in front of the American people here.

ELROD: Okay. The bottom line is -- the bottom line is Donald Trump would like.

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: You do not have the guts to do it.

ELROD: He would like to for the Epstein drama to not be in the news every single day. Which is why he's deflecting by, you know, putting the National Guard in different cities and trying to get in fights with governors and mayors across the country, when the bottom line is, this is what the MAGA base wants. Speaker Johnson can adjourn Congress, you know, way too early. Then they should have been adjourned to try to avoid this. But now they're coming back and they have to face, you know, this this challenging fracture within the MAGA base that we've seen happen over the course of the last few months.

JENNINGS: There's no fracture in the Republican Party over this. And I don't know what they're going to do. I will say this. If I were the president and I were the administration, I would trust and want to work with Jamie Comer on this, apart from having this spill out into a larger issue that continues to chew up floor time. So, my advice work with Comer and get all the information out you can through the House Oversight Committee. I think that's the best thing they could do.

BROWN: Yeah. So I mean, you say that there's no fracture. I just want to go to this really quick. According to a recent Quinnipiac poll, 44 percent of Republicans approve of how the Trump administration is handling the Epstein files. But 34 percent disapprove. 22 percent had no opinion. So, I mean, there is a -- there is a fracture.

JENNINGS: Do you know what Donald Trump's approval rating is among Republicans right now? Ninety-three percent.

BROWN: But on this issue in particular, is there any concern that this could come back to bite Republicans at the polls?

JENNINGS: No, I have 0.0 concerns because no one -- the larger group of American people, the electorate of this country, this is one of the lowest rated issues for them. Look at all the opinion polling on this. Nobody brings this up as their top issue. This is a completely manufactured issue among a handful of people.

BROWN: Well, there are some members of Congress, and I believe we have a graphic of all the Republicans. A lot of the MAGA -- very strongly MAGA Republicans who have been pushing for the release or co-sponsors calling for the release of the Epstein files. And some of them say, look, they are getting a lot of calls from their constituents saying they do want all of these files released. How do you see this playing?

GOLDBERG: Yeah, I don't normally come to the rescue, Scott. He can handle it himself, but I agree with him pretty much entirely.

I think that the only place there is a divide, but no one's going to vote on this. And the what -- you're really seeing is a handful of people, I think mostly grifters and weirdos and podcast bro people, they -- they're looking at a world post-Trump, and they don't want to let go of this issue because it is so monetizable for a -- for a hardcore people group of people who believe in it.

[16:40:11]

And I also don't think, I think if there was any chance that there was actually any criminal behavior by Donald Trump in the Epstein files, whatever, those actually are. I'm pretty confident that Merrick Garland and Joe Biden would have seen a way to get them out to public scrutiny much earlier than this.

I do think there's probably embarrassing stuff in there, whether it's terrible or horrible or just like dinner invites or whatever, I have no idea. But there's a reason why he doesn't want it out there and doesn't want people talking about it. I just don't think there's any evidence or any reason to believe that there, you know, that Trump secreted away under an assumed name. John Barron went down to Epstein's island or anything like that.

BROWN: John Barron was his pseudonym for PR guy.

GOLDBERG: Yes.

BROWN: Okay, so Wednesday's when were supposed to hear from ten of the victims, I want to play how Ro Khanna is characterizing the event.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KHANNA: This is the first time that ten victims are coming to the steps of the Capitol to tell their story, and all that matters is what they want, and they're going to say they want the full release of the Epstein files. Massie and I believe that after their testimony, after every American hears from them, that it will be very hard for anyone to not sign that discharge petition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Do you think this press conference will have any impact?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I do. I think at the heart of this, this is about the victims. It's about women who were abused, underage girls who were trafficked. And you know, in the political back and forth in the discussions about Donald Trump and what his administration are doing or not doing.

Frankly, it is really the victims who deserve justice. And this is what this is all about.

I don't care about the podcast bros. And I am not terribly concerned about the fate of Ghislaine Maxwell. The reason that this matters is because this -- there was an injustice committed here. There was something that was hidden and these women never got a fair day in court.

And I think that it is important for Republicans, for Democrats to make that known, to shine a light on it. And I think that's what they're doing.

BROWN: All right. Up next, call it limousine diplomacy. Why a car ride becomes much more than that when one of the passengers is, you know, Vladimir Putin.

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:46:47]

BROWN: President Putin has just arrived in Beijing ahead of a huge military parade on Wednesday that will also see North Korean leader Kim Jong Un and dozens of others. Foreign leaders attending. It follows China's Shanghai Cooperation Organization Summit, where Putin met with Chinese President Xi and India's Prime Minister Modi.

The Russian president sent an unusual but strong message with Modi. The pair held hands. In India, men hold hands as a sign of loyalty, trust and friendship. In 2019, Modi and President Trump held hands at an event, as you see right here.

Jill Dougherty, adjunct professor at Georgetown University and former CNN Moscow bureau chief, joins our panel.

All right, Jill, nice to see you.

Let's start with that hand-holding. Look, Modi and Putin have always been friendly, right? But Putin is always very calculated with every move when he knows the cameras are around. What was the message he was trying to send with this? And why now?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, in that he not only held hands, but they had a car ride for apparently 45 minutes. And remember, in Alaska, Putin only had about five minutes with President Trump. So, this is another symbol.

But essentially what they're doing at this SCO and they meeting about 20 countries, they're sending a message that they think that the old world order as one propaganda channel from Russia put it, is over. And the old world order was run by the United States.

So Putin now sweeps in and tries to make friends with the people that President Trump recently has imposed sanctions against. That is India and Modi.

So, Putin is trying to, let's say, exacerbate tensions and -- between the United States and India. And then also show that he is the person, you know, on the side of these other countries that are joining together to end the dominance of the United States.

BROWN: And, of course, it comes at a time when President Trump has imposed these 50 percent tariffs on India that have pushed the country to accelerate normalizing ties with China. You know, as you well know, Jill, India is a key American ally that has served as a counterweight to Beijing's influence in the region.

I just want to play something. President Xi said in his bilat with Modi yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

XI JINPING, CHINESE PRESIDENT: It is the right choice for both sides to be friends, who have good neighborly and amicable ties, partners who enable each other's success, and to have the dragon and the elephant dance together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Are the tariffs worth the price of isolating a major security partner?

DOUGHERTY: Well, that is the question I think. You know, there is a price for those tariffs because they're really -- it's really a geopolitical price, more than an economic in that sense that the United States and India had quite a good relationship. And now with these tariffs, it really has exacerbated tensions between the United States and India.

So, Putin will take advantage of that. I mean, look at the other countries that are at the SCO, you know, India, Iran, China, Russia, all of the people who have been gathering together and actually helping Putin, not India per se, except for the, you know, buying energy.

[16:50:15]

But the other countries are directly helping Putin prosecute the war in Iraq, in Ukraine. So, this is -- this is a big deal for the Kremlin. They're making a very big deal of it. And China also is very interested in coming in and showing that it is the stabilizing force in the world. They juxtapose themselves to President Trump, and they would say he is the unstable force.

But here we are, China, Beijing. We are the stable force. And you can trust us in the world. A lot of this is posturing, but there really is, you know, they have, I think, more ammunition for that communication strategy than they did before.

BROWN: And you have to wonder -- to bring in our panel -- Lulu, to kick it off with you, how President Trump is watching these events unfold in China without him there.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm a former foreign correspondent. I have dealt with looking at the world and foreign policy for a long time. And what I can tell you is when you think about spheres of influence, you're constantly trying to figure out as, as the United States, who are our allies, who can we influence, who are the people that we are going to hold close, and who are we trying to take away from our enemies?

And so, when you see that grouping there together, that is a very troubling grouping because United States has worked quite hard to bring India into the sphere of influence of the United States. And what Trump has done with these tariffs, and also the personal conflict with Modi, there's been some reporting that it has to do about the Nobel Peace Prize and other things, he has pushed India into the arms of our strategic enemies. And so that cannot be good for the United States.

That is the -- that is the major concern. In a more macro sense, the big question with these tariffs has always been, who are America's allies now? Who are they?

BROWN: And with the tariffs, it is worth noting that so far President Trump has only imposed them on India as sort of the punishment for buying Russian oil, not some of the other countries that do that, such as China. How do you think the White House should respond to this?

JENNINGS: Well, it's a good question. I think it's a stretch to call them an ally. I think they've been a defense partner. But ally, I mean, they tend to try to keep relations with lots of different countries.

It's interesting you said they pushed India into the arms of Russia. Who pushed them into the arms of Russia in 2022, when that's when they started buying Russian energy. That was during the Biden administration. Apparently, we looked the other way.

I thought part of the issue here is were trying to punish Russia for what they're doing to Ukraine. And so, India is supporting Russia by buying energy. President Trump swoops in and -- I mean this, this, this attacks on Trump's foreign policy are schizophrenic.

On the one hand, it's like he's too pro Russia. On the other hand, we punish one of these Russian customers, and now, it's also a problem.

So, what should they do? I don't know. I don't know how much longer you could consider India to be a defense partner when they're out hanging around with the league of terribles or the legion of doom out there.

So I guess I'd be pretty careful about what information I was sharing with these guys. But I don't like seeing these people together. But let's not pretend it started five minutes ago. They started dealing with Russia back in 2022.

GOLDBERG: Yeah, but, I mean, look, I was in India, met with a lot of government leaders, right after the election here in the States, they really thought that there was going to be this new strategic partnership relationship with the United States. During the Cold War, there was this debate who lost China? If we have the same debate about India, that is really bad in terms of our supposedly making the competition with China the guiding post of our foreign policy.

BROWN: All right. Thank you all so much. Jill Dougherty, thank you.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:58:37]

BROWN: Well, President Trump has made some surprising claims about tariffs, but what does history actually say about this economic sledgehammer? In his latest documentary special, Fareed Zakaria looks back at America's past experience with tariffs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" (voice-over): April 2nd, 2025 America's so-called liberation day as President Trump unveiled new tariffs on countries spanning the globe.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Jobs in factories will come roaring back into our country.

ZAKARIA: He wanted to return America to its glory days.

TRUMP: We're going to produce the cars and ships, chips, airplanes that we need right here in America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We make steel. We make steel and talk steel.

ZAKARIA: Trump was tapping into a powerful nostalgia for an economy that used to make things and for the bountiful middle class manufacturing jobs that came with it.

TRUMP: This will be indeed the golden age of American.

ZAKARIA: A century ago, America had a longing for another lost era. It led to massive tariffs designed to help one industry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Depression, fear and failure stock the nation.

ZAKARIA: Which then damaged the entire economy. This is the story of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, a law that carries dire warnings for America today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That's tonight at 8:00 Eastern, right here on CNN.

Thanks to my panel. We appreciate you all.

And Phil Mattingly, who knows a thing or two about tariffs, is standing by for "THE LEAD".

Hey, Phil, I hope you have a great show.