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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Just In: Trump DOJ Again Fails To Indict Letitia James; White House Gives Adamant Defense Of Trump Economic Policy; Just In: Navy Submits Recommendations To Hegseth On Potential Punishment For Democratic Senator Mark Kelly Over "Illegal Orders" Video. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired December 11, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's me at every wedding
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Same --
FOREMAN: Exact same look.
SANCHEZ: Looking good.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: I wish I danced that well.
FOREMAN: Yeah, look at that. He's got the big high kick going.
SANCHEZ: Very coordinated. Brianna has been teasing dance on this show --
FOREMAN: Really?
SANCHEZ: -- since it began almost three years ago.
FOREMAN: That's right.
SANCHEZ: And the only one we've ever done was the Tina Turner.
KEILAR: The Nutbush.
FOREMAN: There was some other dancer that you were going to jump into.
SANCHEZ: We've been having to toss for like a while now. They're yelling at us.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: We have breaking news as we come on the air. The Justice Department has failed once again to re-indict Letitia James.
Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. For the second time in a week, a federal grand jury has declined to
bring a new indictment against the New York attorney general. James previously pleaded not guilty to charges of mortgage fraud, calling the case weaponization of the justice system by President Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LETITIA JAMES (D), NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: And I will keep fighting for justice. I will keep fighting for New Yorkers. I will keep fighting the aggressive policies of Washington, D.C., and I will not stop
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right, let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. My panel is here, but we're going to start with CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz and CNN's senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.
Katelyn, first to you, take us through the reporting around this grand jury decision.
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, we are learning from our sources that this was a grand jury sitting in Alexandria, Virginia's federal court today. They were hearing from a prosecutor in that office, because that office wanted to get an indictment of Letitia James off of the ground again. And that grand jury said, no.
We're waiting to see if there will be more out of the court today. It's only 4:00, so there could be a little bit more action there in the courthouse. However, this is a big flashing no for the Justice Department because it's the second time a grand jury has said no to indicting Letitia James.
Here's the quote from Letitia James' attorney, Abbe Lowell. "For the second time in seven days, the Department of Justice has failed in its clear attempt to fulfill President Trump's political vendetta against Attorney General James. This unprecedented rejection makes even clearer that this case should never have seen the light of day."
And Lowell, a lawyer who has been opposing the actions of this Justice Department in several different cases, calls this a stain on the department's reputation. It is highly unusual for any grand jury to reject an indictment presented to it by prosecutors in this situation with Letitia James. This is the second time this has happened, and it only comes after the first time James was indicted on these mortgage fraud charges. After that, went through a grand jury for approval. The case was dismissed because the court found the prosecutor, Lindsey Halligan, didn't have the authority to do it.
And so, Donald Trump, the Trump administration, the Justice Department wanting to see James charged, have tried again and they have failed. There is no indictment pending now against Letitia James. Big question though, will they try again? Kasie? HUNT: Question indeed. All right. Katelyn Polantz, thank you very
much for getting us started.
My panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN contributor, "New York Times" journalist, host of "The Interview," Lulu Garcia-Navarro, CNN's special correspondent Jamie Gangel, CNN political commentator Paul Begala, and CNN's senior political commentator, Republican strategist David Urban.
Elie Honig, let me start with you. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Often a good axiom for life. But is it a good axiom in this case?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right. Perseverance, I guess, can be a virtue in some instances, but I would argue no here.
So, believe it or not, DOJ technically is allowed to try yet again. You can continually try to indict a person. You can go to one grand jury after another. That said, for all realistic and practical purposes, someone needs to get it through the Justice Department's head. This is over.
We have never -- I can point to no case in the last 20 years where you've had a case thrown out by a judge, then you had a grand jury refused to indict it, which is very hard to do. Then you had a second grand jury a week later, refused to reindict it. This is an embarrassment for DOJ. The writing could not be any clearer on the wall. This case is simply not going to happen.
One of the lessons that you learn as a prosecutor is you have to pick your battles, and you have to know when to cut your losses. That time has come for DOJ on this case.
HUNT: Well, I feel like we could honestly just go to break and leave it there because it seems very clear. But just to drill down on that --
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Saying we get a chance.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Exactly. Oh my gosh. But you said that it's very hard to go before a grand jury and not get an indictment. Can you just expand on that and why it means here that these repeated attempts are all the more -- I mean, we're clearly all in agreement here, but help us understand further.
HONIG: Yeah. So, the grand jury is completely one sided. Everyone has heard the axiom about indicting a ham sandwich. I'm here to tell you it's true.
(LAUGHTER)
HONIG: I mean, the only people in the room are the prosecutor, your friendly FBI agent who's testifying for you, the grand jurors and a court reporter. There's no defense lawyer. There's no judge. The standard of proof is just -- is just probable cause. It's not
proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And all you have to do is get 50 plus one, 50 percent. A majority of the grand jury and not unanimity like you would need with the trial jury.
I do want to make this point. I may be stealing David Urban's thunder here. Letitia James did target Donald Trump with her lawsuit politically, and I was critical of that, and I remain critical of that. It was wrong the way she ran for office by saying, vote for me for New York A.G. and I promise you, I will nail Donald Trump.
This is wrong, too. They're both wrong. Let's hope this nonsense ends both ways.
HUNT: David Urban, your name has been invoked.
(LAUGHTER)
URBAN: Yes. So, listen to -- you know, Elie's point there, I think Letitia James now should make some T-shirts up like Letitia James greater symbol ham sandwich and then pass like start wearing those around.
HUNT: Somebody called --
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Yeah. You know, what's interesting here is, Katelyn, I was talking to her briefly before this, and at some point, you wonder what's going on with that, with that grand jury to Elie's point about, you know, you can indict a ham sandwich, is there a certain level of jury nullification in this case where the jurors are saying, look, we know that this is the fact pattern that's being presented to us, but we just don't believe it, right?
And so, even though they may find that there's more likely than not that this happened and they would indict in normal cases, that this has been in the news so much and they see it. And so they're nullifying -- they're not indicting specifically because of that.
So curious. You're not going to pull these grand jurors. They're not going to find out. But I think Katelyn raised that issue with me in the in the green room. We were talking I thought it was very, very valid.
GANGEL: To David's point, they -- it sounds like they're sending a message. I would argue, I wonder if one person is going to get that message. And that's Donald Trump, because even though everything Elie just said is true, in normal times we are not in normal times. So, I think we should wait and see what the Truth Social post looks like when President Trump gets this news. And let's see if he triples down.
HUNT: Yeah. Paul Begala, what do you think this this says about, you know, we do know that the president had put out on Truth Social that he wanted a list of people essentially gone after the system is basically saying, well, nope, sorry, can't do that for you. PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yeah, this goes back
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. Grand juries as a check on the king's powers. Get citizens to take a look before you can charge someone.
And Elie's right. I mean, I'm a lawyer. I don't want to play one on TV. But you always win when you're the prosecutor because there's no defense lawyer. There's no defense witnesses, there's no defense.
And yet here, this grand jury, by the way, I want to note it's in Virginia, where Trump did pretty well. He didn't win, but he did pretty well. Not in D.C. where he lost like 90 percent.
URBAN: It's in the northern Virginia suburbs.
BEGALA: It's in the Eastern District of Virginia, which is the rocket docket. I know about this.
GANGEL: But Norfolk turned it down too. That was the first time.
BEGALA: This is a -- this is a district that they take usually take terrorism cases, CIA cases, Pentagon cases. So, it's a very hawkish district for a prosecutor. It's good for a prosecutor.
So, there's just -- this is a huge -- it's not just an embarrassment. It's a miscarriage of justice. I think I think Elie's right. David's right. I don't think Attorney General James should have campaigned saying I'm going to target anybody, including Mr. Trump. That was a mistake. But this is a miscarriage of justice, too, because she is clearly innocent.
I don't think it's jury nullification. I think this is a case where they're alleging that she committed mortgage fraud because she said a house that she was buying essentially for her niece to live in, or grand niece was going to be a rental property, which it wasn't. By the way, there's been reporting that Donald Trump did the same thing with two mansions in Palm Beach that he bought in the '90s. It's actually a very common thing. And it -- according to this grand jury, according to a lot of legal experts, it's just not a crime.
HUNT: Lulu, do you agree with this sort of broader perspective about -- I mean, the president and Letitia James are -- have been going at each other politically. And Tish James did, in fact run on going after him. Is that something that we should see happening regardless of what side one sits on politically?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: So part of the problem here is that, right, that A.G.s are political animals themselves, they have to run in a partisan way and they have to run an election. And she was running in New York, where that kind of rhetoric gets you votes. And so, while you don't agree with it, you can understand it. This thing of the mortgage fraud we've seen over and over and over again being used by this administration, it's weak sauce.
Let's be honest here, going after a sitting A.G. over something like this. I mean, were not talking bribery. We're not talking corruption. We're not talking that even she took a vacation, when she should have been working down to Cabo. I mean, this is literally something that is -- something that the president himself might have done.
And so it is, by any measure, weaponizing the justice system. And frankly, I got to tell you, this is like I'm bored of the back and forth. Is it Letitia James today? Is it Comey tomorrow? It's like these names like, can we just retire them already?
URBAN: One just quick point just to push back on what Lulu said real quickly. You know, there are -- these people are political animals, right? They do run politically. And but I think that to say somehow it's okay to target Donald Trump. Most people who are running --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't agree with --
URBAN: No, no, no, most people running politically --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm just trying to explain --
URBAN: Most people are running --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- that in the same way that Donald Trump says in the -- in his political capacity, I'm, you know, this person is my enemy. I don't like them, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
URBAN: Most prosecutors say we're going to drive down crime. We're going to root out Republican whatever malfeasance, right.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I wouldn't have done it.
URBAN: Painting with a much broader brush. And raison d'etre is to take down Donald Trump, right? That was Tish James's whole campaign.
HUNT: Elie Honig, I'm going to put up for a second the list of others that the president has put on, basically on a on a target list, right? And it's a -- it's a broader group here. Obviously, Comey and Tish James are the two people Lulu just mentioned as like, can we retire those names already? Perhaps. But these are others who have faced something similar, Adam Schiff, it's been a similar issue with these mortgage questions.
I think my big picture question to you here, and I think it could help tell us, like how much more we're going to see with this group is whether this was a win for Tish James or a loss for the DOJ, right? Like, is this a loss for this whole strategy that the president is trying to push with the with his own Department of Justice? Or is this specifically about the facts of this case?
HONIG: Well, I think it's both, Kasie. I mean, first of all, the Letitia James allegations were fairly thin. The entire amount of the alleged mortgage fraud was $18,000, of which she only ever received a few thousand dollars. I will tell you, I never would have intake a case involving that small of a loss amount when I was a federal prosecutor. So, I think there were problems with the proof. And I'd contrast that, by the way, with John Bolton, where I think the allegations in the indictment against John Bolton are very substantial. And I would sort of put that in a different category.
But bigger picture, Kasie, I think this is an example -- look, our system is certainly imperfect, but it is an example of some of the guardrails and checks that we have in place doing their work. Right. You cannot just say, I want to lock this person up. You have to go through a grand jury.
As Begala said, this is one of our oldest bulwarks. You have to get approval from a grand jury. You have to avoid getting dismissed by a judge.
Then you have to go to trial. The defendant gets all their constitutional rights. And then finally, you have a trial jury.
And if any of those mechanisms rejects the case, then as a prosecutor, you lose. So, I think that what Trump is trying to do through this DOJ is condemnable. And I hope it stops. But I also think this is an example of the system holding up.
HUNT: Elie, how does Lindsey Halligan play into this and how exactly does the president continue with some of this, if that's in fact what we see him say he wants to do? If, in fact, that's been found to be illegitimate and he had to go looking for her in the first place just to get somebody, anybody to bring these indictments?
HONIG: Yeah. Let's remember the origin of this whole thing. This was really strike one. Today was strike three. Last week was strike two. The other grand jury rejection.
But strike one happened when Donald Trump put on Truth Social. I'm paraphrasing, but we've all seen the Truth Social. You know, I want to see Letitia James and Adam Schiff and Jim Comey all indicted. They're all guilty as hell.
A few days later, Pam Bondi says, sure, we'll get on it. The problem was, the U.S. attorney at the time for the Eastern District of Virginia, a guy named Erik Siebert, by the way, a conservative veteran prosecutor who had been put in place by Trump. He basically said, "I don't see it" with respect to the James and Comey cases. Therefore, he was pushed out the door.
The replacement who was then brought in was Lindsey Halligan, who had never been a prosecutor for one day. Before that, she had been Trump's personal lawyer. She takes the job and she goes into a grand jury and manages to get the indictment of Letitia James, the first one. But that gets thrown out because the manner in which she was appointed was unconstitutional. Trump did not get to pick another temporary replacement.
So that was strike one. Lindsey Halligan was unconstitutionally serving as the U.S. attorney. Last week's grand jury rejection was strike two. Today's rejection is strike three.
HUNT: All right. Elie Honig, love having you. Thank you very much for being here.
HONIG: Thanks, Kasie.
HUNT: The rest of our panel is going to stand by.
Coming up here in THE ARENA, Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan, one of the six Democrats in that video on troops and unlawful orders, will be here live as CNN gets new reporting on one of her colleagues.
Also in that video, the report on potential punishments for Senator Mark Kelly now on the desk of the Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.
But first, the White House escalating its defense at the president's economic policies, as a new poll shows Americans increasingly in a sour mood.
[16:15:02]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Every data point and every economic metric does, in fact, show that the economy is improving. And so, I do wish more people would report on those facts. I do wish that more people would remind the American public how we got here, and why. It does not mean this president is discarding the feelings of the American people. He gets it better than anyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: All right. Welcome back.
The midterm elections fast approaching, believe it or not. Right now, it does seem that the economy, as is often the case, will be issue number one. The big question, who are you going to believe when you decide who you're going to cast your vote for, the White House or your own bottom line?
[16:25:06]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: President Trump's pro-growth policies are making tremendous progress to make America affordable again. The economy is back on track and ready to boom over the next three years. Biden's inflation crisis is over. Prices are coming down. Wages are rising. The border is fully secure, and America's best days are to come. Everything I'm telling you is the truth backed by real factual data.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Many Americans, though, are not feeling the so-called tremendous progress.
Let's take a look at this new poll from "The Associated Press". Okay, just 31 percent of Americans approve of the way President Trump is handling the economy. Okay. That is the lowest his economic approval has ever been in his two presidential terms.
Clearly, this is a frustrating reality for the president because at the very same time that the White House was defending his economic record there, you saw from Karoline Leavitt, Trump posted this online. Quote, "When will I get credit for having created with no inflation, perhaps the greatest economy in the history of our country?" end quote.
Clearly, Americans are not ready to give him credit for it, if you look at that poll number.
So, President Trump, of course, at times has managed to convince many Americans to see things the way he wants them to. You can look at how perceptions have shifted on the 2020 election or on January 6th. There are other examples.
But it seems that the president is discovering that it may not work that way when it comes to the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": His strategy, it seems, is to just keep saying things are great, which is the same mistake Joe Biden made, by the way. You can't just tell people the economy is good when they're paying more for everything. We know how much things cost.
SETH MEYERS, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH SETH MEYERS": This is when a president needs to show empathy, demonstrate that he understands the plight of hardworking Americans. And oh no, as I'm saying this, I'm remembering who I'm talking about and realizing there's no (EXPLETIVE DELETED) way he's going to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Joining our panel now, "Shark Tank" investor Kevin O'Leary.
Kevin, let me start with you. I mean, these economic numbers for the president, the toughest they have ever been for him. I mean, this has been -- even when he lost the election to Joe Biden, he still was basically above water with Americans on the economy. Maybe not on other things, but on the economy.
People are not feeling great about where they are. And I'm curious if you think he's running into the exact same problem that bedeviled President Biden and the Biden administration, which is that they kept throwing numbers at people, insisting, yes, no, it's fine. It's all great. People just didn't feel that way and they weren't buying it. It seems the same thing may be happening to Trump.
What say you?
KEVIN O'LEARY, "SHARK TANK" INVESTOR: So, as you know, Kasie, I don't shill for politicians, but I shill for policy. There are some truths in his road show. And let's face it, this is the earliest anybody's gone on the road for the midterms, because that's exactly what he's doing. He's on the road pitching for the midterms.
Yes, inflation has come down from nine to 3.1. The target of the Fed is two. You saw massive dissension on that rate cut yesterday. So there won't be any more any time soon. So here we are.
Inflation is still showing up in consumer goods and services on protein and grocery. Part of it is he hasn't fine-tuned the tariffs yet on things like potash and bauxite. People don't care about that.
But that's what farmers are complaining about. They can't get potash because they're not in America. They got to buy it from Saskatchewan. And it's tariffed right now. So, a little fine-tuning on that.
There's good news and there's bad news. But hey, every politician goes out there and shills on remember he's only been there 11 months, and I have to hold some high marks for some policy.
HUNT: Is a year not enough time to make a dent?
O'LEARY: It's too soon because I don't know if we're going to get anything good on housing, which is a pain point. Softwood lumber still tariffed at 25 percent. I mean, this fine-tuning stuff I'm talking about, nobody cares about, but it shows up on input costs, shows up in inflation. Ouch.
And it's hard. And as everybody's saying, you can't say everything's perfect. It's not yet perfect. And so, more work to be done. But midterms, let's say, are 11 months away. And that's what's going to matter. Rubber hits the road then.
By the way, we'll see. We'll see who's left in the cabinet at Jan 31st. If any whacking is going to occur within the policy cabinet, it'll be happening in January. The team that's going to go to the midterms will be defined on January 31st. And as a policy guy and investor, that's all I care about.
I think, you know, you've got to here's a -- here's a problem. We're only 2 percent off the all-time highs in the S&P. So, the world likes the American economy. Sorry to tell you that, but it's true.
HUNT: I certainly take your point. I'm not sure I think that 25 percent tariff on the wood you need to build houses. If housing costs are your biggest policy problem necessarily is something that's around the edges.
Let me bring the rest of the panel in.
I mean, Paul Begala, I'm reminded of your old colleague's axiom that remains true today, that it is the economy, stupid. And honestly, people don't feel great. I mean, I think everyone at this table, it probably shows up in your -- I mean, I'm trying to buy Christmas presents for my kids. The budget that I had set last year for those Christmas gifts, let me tell you, does not go nearly as far this year.
URBAN: Well, you should know. Your kid only needs one doll.
HUNT: I've heard that. I've heard that.
URBAN: Just saying. Just saying.
(LAUGHTER)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And two pencils and two pencils.
BEGALA: And hamburger, 6.23 a pounds, highest in the history of hamburger. Try raising four boys. Eat a lot of hamburger. Okay?
This is the problem. You know, it's Christmas. We -- I've been watching "It's a Wonderful Life". Just like you know, ZuZu says every time you hear a bell ring, an angel gets their wings.
HUNT: Gets his wings.
BEGALA: Every time Donald Trump talks about the cost of living, five Republicans lose their seats. He is so dumb about this.
HUNT: Quite as poetic.
BEGALA: He is repeating exactly Biden's mistake. By the way, Biden's all time low in the economy was 33. Trump is already below that. And by the way, cost of living croaked Biden's presidency and croaked as vice president's candidacy to succeed him.
So, 31, this is -- this is awful. It's awful. And I just want to say as a Democrat, keep doing it, Mr. Trump, I'm praying for your health. We don't want you to get laryngitis. Go out there every day and keep electing Democrats with your idiotic economic messaging. That's all I want.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, I'm so happy to see Kevin here because I think the last time I was on with him, he was touting how great all these tariffs were going to work out. And instead, what I'm hearing now is that it needs to have some fine tuning.
The fact of the matter is that this is all self-inflicted. He inherited not a terrible economy. He inherited an economy that was actually improving.
And what we see now is an economy that's stalled. It's stalled in jobs. It stalled in housing and prices are still very difficult for people.
And what the real message is, and I'm sure that any economist will tell you this, is that prices don't come down unless you have a recession. So, prices are not going to come down. So, the idea that prices are going to come down is the wrong message to send. That is a fiction.
URBAN: Yeah, inflation -- inflation is coming down as Kevin pointed out. I know Kevin's feeling the pain point on that Swiss tariff on watches.
(LAUGHTER) URBAN: I'm sure. He's suffering greatly. But you know, if you have -- this is like the tale of two economies or maybe three economies.
HUNT: Oh, look at that. Oh my gosh.
BEGALA: Yeah. There he goes. Raise taxes on the rich.
URBAN: There you go.
BEGALA: Somebody raise taxes on the rich.
URBAN: But no, but, Paul, this is the point I'm going to make, right? So, if you have money, if you're a participant in the equities market today you're doing very well. Just as Kevin said the markets going gangbusters. So, if you have a 401(k), if you're participating equities market, you're doing pretty well. You're feeling good.
A lot of people in America don't have money to invest. They're putting money in their tank. They're going to the grocery store. They're taking their dollars trying to figure out what goes where.
And so, those are the people, that bottom third of the socioeconomic spectrum that was the Trump base, the black, brown, white, working class Americans that elected Donald Trump are the ones that are feeling most pain right now. And I think the president needs to figure out how to focus on that and get the message.
Now, listen, come to January 1st, no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, all those things kick in. There'll be more money in people's pockets. Those -- they'll start feeling that a little bit more, a little more money. Walk around with.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Not if they want health insurance.
URBAN: But it's not -- well, that's -- they're going to get a fix. But that's not quick. People want quick. They want quick. They want the president to talk about it.
GANGEL: And to your point, messaging. Donald Trump said it would be quick. It's true, Kevin, its 11 months. But the reality is Donald Trump said, vote for me. I will fix it. I believe he likes to use the expression "on day one".
The reality is he went to Pennsylvania and his White House advisers were like help me, because Donald Trump never likes to admit that he's wrong. And that's not the message.
HUNT: I want to play something that Marjorie Taylor Greene, who, of course, is after having been loyal to the president for many years now, extraordinarily at odds with him. The president keeps calling her a traitor. She's leaving Congress.
But she said something in an interview with CBS this week that kind of made a point that certainly we've talked about at this table, because President Trump, when he was first elected in 2016, was in some ways the everyman's rich guy, right? The person that perhaps if you did well, you applied yourself, you could become wealthy like he did.
Here's how Greene talked about Trump, though. In this moment here in 2025. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I think the president needs to be aware that he's a billionaire, president of the United States, and you can't gaslight people and tell them that their bills are affordable, and you can't tell them that the economy is an A-plus, plus, plus.
[16:30:02]
You just can't do that. And I think it's insulting to people's intelligence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GANGEL: And the Democrats are picking up on that messaging. They're saying, thank you very much, Marjorie Taylor Greene.
You are hearing more and more. The Democrats who have not been very good on messaging. Here are three things you're going to hear them say. Donald Trump doesn't get it. He's living in a billionaire bubble and he is, quote, "out of touch". They're messages that resonate and go through.
HUNT: Kevin O'Leary, do you think President Trump -- I mean, this is someone who, again, took a lot of people by -- I was actually on the campaign trail in 2016. And I will say I was taken a little bit less surprised by some of my colleagues who were here in Washington, in New York, because you could see it every day. Right. But a lot of people were taken by surprise by the numbers of people that voted for Donald Trump, sent him to the White House in 2016 because they were angry, disaffected, disillusioned. They were -- they were frustrated.
And he tapped into and made them feel like he understood their pain, right? That was -- that was then. Now, is Donald Trump out of touch?
O'LEARY: No, I don't think so. You got to remember, in every midterm, the incumbent always gets pressure and loses seats. I mean, that's part of the package.
The Greene story, she's getting her moment. But she'll as I say, I have no disrespect for her, but she's roadkill in the in the Republican Party and she has no implementation on policy. So I don't give a damn what she says. And I hate to be crass, but she's not going to affect how I invest dollars.
I'm more interested to see what the cabinet looks like on January 31st, because that's the team that's going into the midterms on policy. So, a lot of things you talked about no tips and all that stuff, no tax on that.
I'm not a fan of the free $2,000 helicopter money. That's inflationary. But we'll see what it looks like. But right now, the biggest index you've got to give Trump is how the rest of the world looks at the American economy. The number one economy on Earth for the last 200 years is the United States for all of its faults and problems.
Fifty-two cents of every dollar on earth comes here. He is the manager and he should think about it this way of the American Dream. And I invest that way.
Every day, every country on earth puts 52 cents of their money in this economy. So, think about that. I think he's doing a pretty good job on that. And, you know, I'm not shilling for him. I'm talking about policy here.
HUNT: With two watches, one on each hand.
Kevin O'Leary --
URBAN: He wants those -- drop those Swiss tariffs.
O'LEARY: Yes, there are. This is -- this is economic time on both sides. And they're both keeping great time.
I'm loving this economy. I'm sorry. It's pretty good.
HUNT: Well, it has been very good for people like you if I do say so myself, sir. Thank you.
BEGALA: This guy is an in-kind contribution for the Democrats. Keep going.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Kevin O'Leary, thank you very much for joining us, sir. I appreciate your time.
The rest of our panel is going to stand by.
Up next in THE ARENA, the U.S. Navy has now given Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth options on ways to potentially punish Democratic Senator Mark Kelly over his role in a video message to troops.
Plus, the DHS secretary on defense over immigration and deportation policies during a tense hearing on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, DHS SECRETARY: We also have the blessing of having --
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Rather than sitting here and wasting your time and ours more -- with more corruption, lies and lawlessness. I call on you to resign. Do a real service to the country and just resign. That is, if President Trump doesn't fire you first.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:38:15]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back.
Today, the U.S. Navy has submitted its recommendations on potential punishments for Democratic Senator Mark Kelly for his participation in that video that reminded U.S. troops of their duty to refuse illegal orders. Those recommendations have been submitted to the Pentagon's Office of General Counsel, where they are providing legal review and input, according to a Pentagon official. It is not immediately clear what the recommendations are.
But Kelly, who the president has accused of, quote, "seditious behavior," end quote, could face being recalled to active service and potentially court martialed. A retired navy pilot, he could also see his rank and pension reduced.
Joining us now to discuss in THE ARENA, one of the lawmakers who appeared alongside Senator Kelly in that video, Democratic congresswoman from Pennsylvania, Chrissy Houlahan. She is an Air Force veteran.
Congresswoman, it's wonderful to have you on the show. Thanks very much for being here.
Have you in Congress yet seen these recommendations?
REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): No. In fact, this is the first I've heard of the fact that yesterday, I know was the deadline for that to happen, but I had not heard that there were recommendations that came out from the Navy. Let's just pause for a minute, because what it is that we are being collectively accused of is stating the law. And for that, we have been threatened with execution and been told that we are seditionists.
And this particular piece of information that's on the desk regarding Mr. Mark Kelly, he is literally a warrior. He has fought in wars. He has -- he's an astronaut. I mean, the idea that we are going to court martial somebody as honorable, who has served with such dignity as Senator Kelly is beyond the pale.
HUNT: How are you and the group that participated in this video, preparing for thinking about what may come here?
[16:40:09]
I mean, what are the bigger implications? What are the options for you in terms of response?
HOULAHAN: So I think that what is hard for us all to grapple with is the fact that we are literally being accused of sedition for saying the exact same thing that secretary of defense said, the exact same thing that Attorney General Pam Bondi said. And the idea that we have to somehow defend ourselves against that is, I think, very hard for all of us who have all served in one form or another to grapple with. That being said, we are all, you know, aware that these kinds of
charges may come down and we're working to make sure that we can address them. But we've been overwhelmed by the positive response that's come from our community in support of what it is that we've done and said. And also, as you've seen in the -- in the consequential subsequent weeks, a lot of what we said has been validated in many ways.
HUNT: Congresswoman, of course, Mark Kelly is in a category of his own because of his the nature of his status as a retired member of the armed forces. The rest of you who participated in the video not still potentially subject to the UCMJ in this way, but that doesn't mean that the system isn't coming after you. The Trump administration, the FBI has said it wants to interview you and others in the course of counterterrorism investigation.
Have you decided -- are you planning on participating in the interview that the FBI wants to do with you?
HOULAHAN: We have been responsive. We have replied back. Interestingly enough, the FBIs inquiry to all of us was pretty slipshod and literally had no point of contact for us to be able to get back to. So, I don't know who's running the operation over there, but it doesn't seem to be terribly professional.
But listen, we are very much -- we very much honor the law. Clearly, that's why we stated the law. And we are very much able to respond where appropriate to what it is that we're being asked to do.
HUNT: Would they have to compel you to do an interview with them?
HOULAHAN: You know, that remains to be seen. I'm not really sure what -- honestly, what charges they possibly could have to bring against us. And I think that's the struggle. Again, six members of Congress, duly elected members of Congress representing their community, recorded a video together that asked people in uniform -- in uniform, to obey the oath of office that they took and to obey the law and to not follow unlawful orders.
That's what we did. And if that means that we are charged with something, I'll be -- I'll be really surprised.
HUNT: Congresswoman, I also want to ask you about what we've learned in the last 24 hours about the seizure of a oil tanker out of Venezuela -- off the coast of Venezuela that we have reported was heading for Cuba. Do you think this action is potentially appropriate or is it entirely inappropriate?
HOULAHAN: So, I would really like a lot more information about this. I serve on the Armed Services and on the Intelligence Committees. And as a consequence, by the Constitution, by Article One, people like me and places like this in seats like mine should be able to have briefings on this kind of incursion and justifications and validations.
Remember, Congress and Congress alone is the part of the government that's supposed to declare war and supposed to authorize the use of military force. And this particular effort sure looks like a use of military force and has not yet to this moment. Anybody come to the Congress to ask for that permission or to brief us on that.
HUNT: Do you -- do you believe that that this is part of the drug mission, or is it still, in your view, possible that this is legitimate concerning sanctions around Venezuelan oil or potentially Iran? These are some of the explanations we've heard as possible reasons.
HOULAHAN: Sure. It's been really cryptic. You know, your guess is as good as mine at this point in time. The information that we here in the Congress get comes from the same sources that you get information from. There have been exactly no briefings in the intelligence committee, as far as I know, in the Armed Services Committee and in the Foreign Affairs Committee here to justify and validate what it is that is of interest down in Venezuela.
Why are we doing this? We can speculate, just as you have. We can guess, you know, potentially it's about oil, about drugs or about regime change or about money. But we don't have any answers any more than you guys do.
HUNT: Congresswoman, before I let you go, there was a vote today on the House floor to table an impeachment resolution against the president. House Democratic leaders elected to vote present. They didn't take a side. Should they have?
HOULAHAN: You know, present -- the present vote can be used for a lot of purposes. As an example, I used the present vote today because this impeachment vote was about the situation that I'm in right now.
[16:45:03]
And in many cases, when people feel as though they cannot be objective about a vote, they vote present.
And so in my case, I was one of the present votes because this impeachment vote was about the situation we've been discussing. I think it's not necessarily a vote of not yes or not no. I think its a vote of we really have a lot more to do. You have been speaking a lot about affordability, and this Congress has done exactly nothing to address that.
And until such time as we do something about the things that people, the American people really want us to be doing, these kinds of votes are just performative, and we really don't have time for them, which is why I think the leadership voted present.
HUNT: All right. Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan, thanks very much for your time. I really appreciate it.
HOULAHAN: You're welcome. Thank you.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, breaking news coming in from Indiana, state lawmakers just finishing a vote on whether to redraw their congressional maps supported by President Trump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:50:20]
HUNT: All right. We are back now with breaking news out of Indiana.
In just the past few minutes, the state senate, which is run by Republicans, overwhelmingly voted down a plan to redraw the state's congressional districts. The plan was very publicly pushed by President Trump after successful efforts in other states, most notably in Texas. The final vote was 31 to 19, with 21 Republicans joining 10 Democrats in rejecting the proposal.
My panel is back with me.
GANGEL: I want to meet these Indiana Republicans. I want to know what they're eating, what they're drinking, where they -- where they got all this from.
Look, this this is bad news for Donald Trump, but it really echoes what we're hearing from a lot of Republicans, which is never should have gone down, this redistricting path.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, the redistricting path has not been -- borne the fruit that they had hoped it would. In fact, I think it's been a lot more complicated for Republicans than they would have suspected specifically because some of the ways in which these were drawn has actually made these -- these districts more competitive in a wave election. So now the map is really expanded for Democrats in a way that they had not anticipated.
HUNT: David --
URBAN: Look, we just got to win the old fashioned way, right? That's -- that's how we got to win. We got to roll up our sleeves, have a coherent message on the economy, on some other things. The president -- get the president out there, have good candidates running as Paul knows.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Do you think the president out there actually --
URBAN: Well, in certain districts --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- going to help?
URBAN: Well, listen, I -- 100 percent.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm not clear that that's actually going to help for midterm elections.
URBAN: No, no, I think in certain districts it will help a great deal because turnout, the model is turnout, right? And so, you got to get huge numbers in some of these districts.
Look, you're not going to have -- Donald Trump's campaign for Brian Fitzpatrick. And, you know, in lower Bucks County, right? He's not going to go up and campaign for Mike Lawler. That's not a winner.
But there are certain districts where Donald Trump is still 90 percent very favorable. It's going to get people out, pump up those numbers. We've got to take those off the map, and there's going to be a handful of seats. There's 30 competitive seats in America, 40 competitive seats where all the money is going to get spent. And we need to have good candidates, and we can't let Democrats. We can't let Paul and his colleagues keep talking about affordability and losing on that narrative.
HUNT: Paul, quick last word.
BEGALA: They tried to rig these districts in my beloved Texas. Smartest person I know Texas politics, Billy Begala, my son, who helps run "The Barbed Wire". He's a genius. Seriously.
(LAUGHTER)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Oh my gosh!
HUNT: Shameless plug. Shameless plug.
BEGALA: My Baby Billy said, this is going to bite them because Trump's favorable with Latinos now is down from 46 to 19. He's going to lose those districts he thought he was -- Lulu said that a minute ago. I didn't have to repeat it.
HUNT: Yeah.
All right. I could actually keep talking about this all afternoon. But we have more breaking news. And this is about the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia.
CNN correspondent Priscilla Alvarez joins us now with more.
Priscilla, what are we learning just now?
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kasie, I just spoke to his attorney who told me that Abrego Garcia is currently in the process of being released from an ICE facility in Pennsylvania, where his legal team is waiting for him and plan on returning him to Maryland. The reason for this release, of course, is because of a court order that happened earlier today from a federal judge in Maryland who ordered his immediate release from custody and asked for the federal government to provide the status of his release by 5:00 p.m. Eastern today.
Clearly, we are close to that time, and they are currently moving with the process of releasing him from ICE -- from the ICE facility.
Now, the reason for all of this, of course, is this back and forth in this fraught legal battle between the federal government and the federal judge in this case over where he was going to be deported.
The administration has pushed for him to be sent to a far-flung country in Africa. Some of those countries have rejected it. Costa Rica, however, has said that they would be willing to receive him and grant him protections there. But the federal government has not moved forward with that plan, and in the absence of that, the judge in this case ordered for his release.
That is something that judges can do for detained migrants when their -- when the removal is not imminent. Even so, with this release, there are conditions he will be in the custody of his brother in Maryland and will not be able to leave the state, and will only be able to leave the home in limited circumstances.
The Department of Homeland Security and the White House slamming this decision earlier today. But as of right now, what we know is that Kilmar Abrego Garcia is being released from the ICE facility in Pennsylvania and heading back to Maryland.
HUNT: All right. Priscilla Alvarez, thanks very much for the reporting on that breaking news.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:59:33]
HUNT: All right. Thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate all you guys being here.
And thanks to you at home for watching as well.
Here is a programing note. This Saturday, I hope you'll all catch THE ARENA SATURDAY at 8:00 a.m. and noon Eastern. This is a new -- a new venture here.
You can also stream THE ARENA or THE ARENA Saturday live or catch up whenever you want. It's in the CNN app. You can scan the QR code below to find it.
You can also catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcast. Theres a QR code for that, too. Don't forget to follow along on X and Instagram @TheArenaCNN.
Jake Tapper is now standing by for "THE LEAD".
Jake, "THE LEAD" is also on, on the weekends for CNN. I suggest you check it out, too.
