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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Trump Venezuela Plan Unclear As He Celebrates Maduro Capture; Just In: Trump Discussing "Options" For Acquiring Greenland; Political Divide Over January 6 Deepens Five Years After Capitol Attack. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired January 06, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: But George Conway spent time there. He lived in New York for years, so an interesting race to watch of many primaries to watch.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Very interesting.

Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much for that.

ZELENY: You bet.

KEILAR: And THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.

(MUSIC)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Tuesday.

Right now, Donald Trump's presidency facing a pivotal moment, one that could potentially define his second term shape the years to come. The question, what is the plan in Venezuela?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, people are saying it goes down with one of the most incredible -- it was so complex, 152 airplanes. Many, many talk about boots on the ground. It's a fearsome military on planet Earth, and it's not even close. You know, I've been saying it for a long time. Nobody can take us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was the president this morning celebrating the capture of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. He says that the U.S. is in charge now, but it is not entirely clear what that means.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): It's clear the administration pulled the trigger on step one of their plan in Venezuela without figuring out how they're going to follow through on steps two to 10.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, deciding to overthrow a foreign leader among the most consequential decisions that any American president can make. And it's one that recent history shows is very risky.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.

(CHEERING)

CHRIS WALLACE, INTERVIEWER: Worst mistake.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Probably failing to plan for the day after what I think was the right thing to do in intervening in Libya.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So that brings us back to today's question. What is the plan?

The president says we, the United States, are in charge. He's not saying what that means. He's not saying how long its going to take.

His supporters -- well, we have heard something like this from them many times before. They say, trust in Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I think the country understands this is a guy who gets results. We trust him. I trust him.

SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL): I don't know how long it's going to take, but actually, here's what I know. President Trump, Marco Rubio, they're committed.

MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Venezuela looks nothing like Libya. It looks nothing like Iraq. It looks nothing like Afghanistan.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: You invaded the country. We went into the country and we seized the leader of Venezuela --

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Damn straight we did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Damn straight we did.

Let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. My panel is here.

We're also joined by CNN's senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes, who's going to get us started today.

And, Kristen, we have some new reporting just coming in.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kasie. So, as we have been asking these questions about Venezuela, the questions have been arising as to what the U.S. plans to do in other countries. And one specifically that President Trump has routinely mentioned and was mentioned in that interview you just played a clip from of Stephen Miller was Greenland.

And now we have an official statement from the press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, essentially saying that the administration is looking at a range of options in order to acquire Greenland and that military action is not off the table. I'm going to read to you this part right here, says, "President Trump has made it well known that acquiring Greenland is a national security priority of the United States. It's vital to deter our adversaries in the Arctic region. The president, his team, are discussing the range of options to pursue this important foreign policy goal. And of course, utilizing the U.S. military is always an option at the commander-in-chief's disposal."

This is obviously not going to go over well with our European allies. We've already seen just earlier today, a letter written by several NATO countries essentially saying leave Denmark, leave Greenland alone. Anything about their future should be left up to the people of Denmark and Greenland.

But clearly, this isn't going away. And this was something President Trump has been talking about since early 2025, when he was sworn into office. Although it seemed to have gone kind of on the back burner, as Greenland has repeatedly said, stop with the threats and we're not for sale.

But now, with this invasion of Venezuela, there are still very much questions as to what exactly the White House and U.S. is willing to do when it wants to acquire or take over certain assets of another country. So, something we'll be watching very closely.

And I do want to just go back quickly to the country we already invaded and captured the leader of, Nicolas Maduro, which is there still so many questions we hear over and over again. And you played those clips from Stephen Miller from these various cabinet secretaries, from President Trump himself, celebrating the capture of Maduro.

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What we don't hear over and over again is what exactly is going to happen next. What does the day-to-day look like? What does it actually mean to take over oil there? What does it mean to rebuild the oil infrastructure?

And we are asking these questions every day to try to get an understanding not just of what is happening, but also what the U.S. involvement in another country in which our United States government is now saying, we are running, actually is and we still don't have those answers.

HUNT: Lots of questions, very few answers. Kristen Holmes, thank you very much for that.

All right. My panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN contributor, "New York Times" journalist Lulu Garcia-Navarro. She was, of course, a foreign correspondent for many years and covered Nicolas Maduro. We're also joined by CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg. And the former communications director at the DNC Mo Elleithee is here. And CNN political commentator, Republican strategist Brad Todd also joining us.

Thank you all for being here.

Lulu, you have a unique perspective here. You also, of course, worked in the Middle East and saw firsthand some of the results of American military adventures in that region of the world.

Now, if you listen to people like Marco Rubio, he'll say, it's not the same, right? The things we learned in the Middle East don't apply here. This is a different situation.

I'm curious if you think that that is the correct assessment, right? What the differences are? And broadly speaking, the White House putting out this statement today, they've said before the president has said he wants Greenland, right? But context is often everything.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah. So, what I'll say is this, I think what the administration learned from the mistakes of the Bush era is that when you topple a dictator and then you get rid of all the infrastructure which they did under the de-Baathification project, you're going to have chaos, which is what happened, because they basically took away the military and they sent all these people who had military training out to become insurgents. They took away all of the infrastructure, which meant that there weren't any kind of any -- anything to deal with the day to day lives of ordinary Iraqis.

And instead, what they've done here is exactly the opposite, right? They've said, everyone stays the same. All these terrible people who have been repressing the Venezuelan people, we're just going to leave them there, and we've cut off the head because we don't want to have happen in Venezuela. What happened in Iraq.

Now, maybe there's a middle ground, first of all, maybe not going in at all. But secondly, like if you talk to Venezuelans, which I have today, they were really happy that Maduro was taken, those that oppose that administration, which is the majority of the country, and now they're like WTF. Because what you're seeing on the streets there is repression. What you're seeing on the streets, there are armed gangs that are allied to the government telling people that they can't go out and protest.

And if the president of the United States says, I run Venezuela, that means he owns that, too. Whatever happens now in that country, whatever repression, these same people that have been repressing the Venezuelan people up until now, that means he owns this.

HUNT: Jonah Goldberg, what do you think the biggest mistake the president could make right now in Venezuela? JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, it's an interesting

question. As I try to think of a good answer for it, I just want to follow up on something Lulu says, you know, this is not regime change. Everyone keeps calling it regime change.

HUNT: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: It's not regime -- it's like saying, okay, we've arrested I know Hitler analogies are not acceptable. We've arrested Stalin, but we're going to leave the rest of the politburo and their infrastructure and the NKVD and the KGB all in place. Right? The regime is still intact.

And, I think the -- you know, the -- I think a lot of things can go wrong here. Going forward, I think trying to strongarm the oil companies into doing something that they don't necessarily want to do or can do could really blow up in his face in a way that make the whole thing, because we found out that all of the stuff about blowing up boats and drugs was really pretextual, and what he really wanted to do was take the oil.

And if they can't figure out a way to take the oil before the midterms in a in a plausible way, and that all goes crazy, I could see Trump trying to order oil companies to do it. I could see him trying to take a golden share. You could see markets freaking out about that. And so how he handles that politically, I think is a big issue. And then I think I agree entirely with Lulu.

Look, I make a big case about Congress and the Constitution all the time.

HUNT: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: One of the reasons why you go to Congress is just a political one. So, you have buy in from the rest of the political system. I have never seen something so consequential, so completely owned by one president before in my entire life.

HUNT: I remember when Barack Obama, President Obama, went to Congress to try to get backing for strikes in Syria, and Congress basically said, we don't want any part of this. They wouldn't even do it for that for that reason, right? They didn't want to co-own it with him.

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And, Brad Todd, I want to play something for you that Megyn Kelly actually said because she is now part of the sort of MAGA media sphere. And of course, there has been quite a bit of support for the president from Jim Jordan was in here yesterday saying over and over again, he trusts the president. Obviously, the strike itself was conducted in an extraordinarily professional.

I mean, it was, you know, awe-inspiring what the American military was able to do. But here's what Megyn Kelly said just in -- it's interesting, considering. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, PODCAST HOST: I'm going to stay on the yellow light for this. I'm not in the green light territory. I'm not in the red light territory either. But I am staying in the yellow light territory for now.

I have seen what happens when you cheerlead unabashedly U.S. intervention in foreign countries, thinking it's for our good and for the national, the international good, only to wind up with what we've called quagmire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Interesting coming from that kind of voice. I mean, to Jonah's point, I mean, the president seems to own this totally.

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You're seeing a lot of what I'm going to somewhat derisively call new right commentators not know which way to go right now. And, you know, the one hand, this is the most strikingly successful American military operation in any of our memories. And I flash back comparing this one to what happened with Joe Biden's exit from Kabul, it's just night and day different and --

HUNT: Which was the beginning of his slide --

TODD: His numbers never recovered from it. His numbers never recovered from it.

HUNT: Yeah.

TODD: Now, the President Trump's goal is to try to make this be the springboard to his numbers recovering in a similar way. I think he's going -- to do that, he's going to have to enunciate a plan for how -- what success looks like next and how we get out.

And to Lulu's point, you know, there are a finite number of people in any country trained to be soldiers. If you don't pay them to be soldiers, someone else will pay them to be soldiers.

And so, I think it's not a stupid idea to be paying them to be soldiers right now that are not overthrowing the government. He's going to have to enunciate a plan by which we have a new democratic, elected government in Venezuela that will be an ally of ours. And at what point? That means we can extract ourselves.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You know what my question is, though? What has he and what has this administration offered the people who are running Venezuela right now? Because we've heard a lot about the stick and the fact that they have indictments against them, that they could end up worse than Maduro. I don't know what that means. I don't know if that means, you know, they get the kaput, but they must be having a carrot, too, because the stick isn't going to be the thing that makes them want to work with the United States.

So, there is another question here as to what deals the United States has made behind the scenes to keep all of this running and intact. TODD: That kind of convincing military operation, though, has a way

of persuading someone inside Venezuela's government, though.

HUNT: Mo, where do you think is the smartest place for Democrats to be on this? Because you have seen some anonymous grumbling off the Hill, you know, suggesting that, well, more Democrats need to be out front saying, it's good this guy is gone, praising the military for, you know, what, what happened. And I'm just curious from a strategy perspective, what do you think is the right way to go?

MO ELLEITHEE, FORMER DNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yeah. Good that Maduro's gone, right? No one is shedding a tear over his being out of office. Amazing, remarkable effort by the United States military. Right? They proved once again why we are the strongest military in the world.

But every other part of this raises questions that should concern us all. This administration, the White House has gone to great lengths to say, it's okay we didn't tell congress because this wasn't a military action. It was a law enforcement action.

Steve Miller comes on CNN yesterday and says --

HUNT: Damn straight, we invaded.

ELLEITHEE: Damn straight, we invaded, and we defeated a nation. Right? And then the president threatened to do the same to Colombia, to Mexico. And now, we're talking about going into Greenland.

This administration then began to own the fact that it was about oil. But to Jonah's earlier point, the oil companies say we don't want it. And even if we did, we can't pay for it. And even if we could, it will take many, many, many, many years for us to be able to do anything with it.

At every turn, every explanation this administration has given proves that they actually don't have a plan for what's next, and that they actually are being completely dishonest with the American people about why we are there.

We have a history of these things going badly, and that history shows that in the immediate aftermath, the nation rallies behind the president until they realize the quagmire that we are in. They're not rallying behind the president right now, right? The poll numbers are not what you saw after Libya, what you saw after Iraq, what you saw --

HUNT: We have seen some movement, I will say, in the immediate, yeah.

ELLEITHEE: It's moved a little bit, but its not the same full throated support of the American people.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Because they didn't make the case that we are under imminent threat from --

ELLEITHEE: Exactly. GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- from, from Venezuela. You know, the case was simply not made to the American people. And certainly, lawmakers weren't involved in it. And the shifting explanations for what has happened here -- you know, has left everyone confused, not actually rallying behind this mission, but absolutely confused as to why the United States and this president feels like they should be running a South American nation of 30 million people.

ELLEITHEE: They even said it was about drugs, which rings hollow six weeks after they pardoned, you know, another former head of state who was a drug lord.

HUNT: Well, it seems like we're going to be talking about this in the weeks and months to come.

Coming up next, though, in THE ARENA, Democratic Senator Chris Murphy will be here live. What he wants to hear from administration officials just hours before the full Senate is briefed on the attack inside Venezuela and whether other countries could soon be next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART, COMEDIAN: President Trump and an elite team of Delta Force special operators removed a dangerous foreign dictator from power. Not that one. They're actually friends. And quite frankly, I think business partners.

No, no, not that. He's -- they're also quite close. That's not -- okay. I believe these two have more of a heated rivalry vibe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:55]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): For two long hours, we heard yesterday from the administration and what we heard was little more than wishful thinking and no real answers. How many troops are we going to commit to Venezuela? Are there any limits? No answer. What country is next? Is Colombia on the table?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, as it turns out, Greenland might be next. The White House now says that President Trump is discussing a, quote, range of options, end quote, to acquire the territory, noting that use of the U.S. military is not off the table.

Another nation that, of course, has been facing threats from the administration is Colombia.

And that's where we find CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward in Bogota. Clarissa, what have you been seeing and hearing amid these escalating

threats?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we have seen today the latest salvo from Colombia's president, Gustavo Petro, in this war of words with President Trump that has been going on back and forth. Today, President Petro lashing out against the Monroe Doctrine, which President Trump has appropriated as his own Donroe doctrine.

President Petro saying that the Monroe Doctrine basically aims to render sovereign Latin American nations as colonies. And he went on to post on X, quote, "That goes completely against international law. It's the same doctrine around living space that Hitler used, and it caused two world wars.

And if you talk to people here, a lot of them, Kasie, will point out it is also the same sort of logic that President Putin used to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and that President Xi Jinping has been using also in terms of making moves on Taiwan.

Now, behind the scenes, I will say, Kasie, that Colombian officials really want to kind of tamp down the rhetoric and take some of the animosity out of the air in this back and forth between President Petro and President Trump. They're very much focused, of course, on securing this 1,400 mile long border with Venezuela. Some 30,000 Colombian troops are now fanned out across it as the situation inside Venezuela continues to get more and more tense.

And while it's calm, we are seeing more reports of journalists being rounded up and detained, 12 of them yesterday. They were ultimately released. But still obviously a concern of these so-called colectivos, these armed gangs that are loyal to the government, going around, combing through people's belongings, stopping their cars, searching their cars.

And we have seen videos being posted online by armed police at night in the capital saying doubting is treason, loyalty is everything.

So, all of that really giving rise to fear -- rise to fears inside Venezuela that there could be a real crackdown on the way. And that, of course, has implications for Colombia.

One more thing I want to add the president here, Petro, has, in fact, asked for people to join him in a rally tomorrow afternoon against U.S. military aggression -- Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Clarissa Ward for us in Colombia -- Clarissa, thank you very much for that report.

Joining us now is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. He sits on the Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, it's great to see you again. Thank you so much for being here. And I'd like to start by asking you about this statement that we just

received from the White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt. And it's about Greenland. So she puts this out. She says, quote, President Trump has made it well known that acquiring Greenland is a national security priority of the United States. And it's vital to deter our adversaries in the Arctic region.

The president and his team are discussing a range of options to pursue this important foreign policy goal. And, of course, utilizing the U.S. military is always an option at the commander-in-chief's disposal.

Now, I realize that he has said similar things about Greenland in the past, but considering what we just saw with Nicolas Maduro, what is your response to this statement about Greenland coming in this moment?

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SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): I think you do have to take these threats more seriously. I certainly was amongst those who 12 months ago or six months ago dismissed his talk of taking over Greenland as an intentional distraction. I think, now, you have to really think about what's in the president's brain.

But what's most important is that the president seems to be spending all his time thinking about Venezuela, Greenland, his new ballroom, and no time thinking about the American people. And this is a month where health care premiums on people in this country are going up by 100 or 200 percent. There's going to be a health care cataclysm all across America. Costs on your groceries are going up. Your kids school supplies. We're going to have kids going hungry in this country. The president is cutting nutrition assistance.

So life is getting harder for millions and millions of Americans, in large part because the president seems to be spending no time thinking about them. He's interested in getting his sort of natural resource friends, his oil friends, and his Wall Street friends' beaks wet in places like Venezuela.

So, this is a crisis for Venezuela. It's a crisis for Greenland, but primarily its a crisis for the American people whose lives are getting harder because this president is very distracted.

HUNT: Do you think that the world is better off without Maduro in charge of Venezuela?

MURPHY: Well, I think the most important reporting that is being done today is what you just heard from Clarissa Ward, the growing instability on the streets of Venezuela. You know, people ask that question after Gadhafi was taken out. Isn't the world a better place because Moammar Gadhafi is no longer in charge of Libya?

And then the country collapsed into a catastrophic civil war that they have not come out of today. And the same thing could be happening inside Venezuela. What did Venezuela get out of this? They got, for the short term, a substitution of one brutal dictator for another. Delcy Rodriguez is not a democrat. She is not going to be opening up the country to elections. And that might be the best case scenario that just one dictator replaces another.

That country might lurch into civil war, into instability, which would -- which would end up in literally potentially hundreds of thousands of new migrants being pushed out of Venezuela and up to the U.S. border.

So, yeah, nobody is shedding a tear that Maduro is in jail. He was a criminal. But for the people of Venezuela and for the world, the situation in the future might end up being worse, not better.

HUNT: What do you think is what is the thing that you want to see the administration do next? Because we heard Chuck Schumer say they don't seem to have a plan for day two, day three, day four. Should the Trump administration be supporting the opposition leader in Venezuela, or should they be continuing on this path with Maduro's number two?

MURPHY: Well, you know, that's kind of an unfair question, right? It's kind of like, you know, you break an egg in front of me, and then you ask me what my plan is to put the egg back together as a whole egg. I don't know what you do now. They have created a mess because they have gone in, deposed a dictator with zero plan for what comes next, and apparently, massive open disagreement in the administration about what the purpose of this whole operation was.

You got Mike Waltz saying, this isn't a war. This is just about executing an arrest warrant. You have Donald Trump saying, no, this is all about the oil. We want the control of the oil.

There seems to be no consensus inside the administration. There seems to be no plan for what comes next. And so, I don't actually have a great answer for you as to how to manage themselves out of a situation that maybe is your own reporting suggests descending into chaos on the streets of Caracas.

HUNT: What do you think is the biggest mistake the Trump administration could make right now?

MURPHY: Well, obviously the biggest mistake they could make is to insert new U.S. ground forces. And my impression is that Trump thinks that he is going to be able to get Delcy Rodriguez or whatever government takes Maduro's place to do what he wants on specific issues and the issues he seems to only care about is making money for his Wall Street and oil friends, under the threat of a second invasion.

So what happens if Rodriguez or whoever topples Rodriguez in the next 48 hours says no to Trump? Are we going to be looking at U.S. ground forces inside Venezuela? That would be truly cataclysmic.

So, the biggest mistake Trump could make is to double down on the military campaign and to put troops on the ground. But I'm not sure that he is left with a lot of good options. He is increasingly, it seems, painting himself into a corner.

HUNT: When you were receiving briefings from administration officials on the boats. And there's, of course, the question about that second strike on a survivor. When you look back on that, do you feel the administration and their officials misled you and other members of Congress about their intentions?

[16:30:04]

MURPHY: Well, I mean, like every day this administration lies, it's just like what Donald Trump does. So, like every day I am misled and lied to every day. The American public are misled and lied to.

Yes, in that classified briefing, the administration made it very clear that this was a targeted military operation against boats off the Venezuelan coast, that they were not interested in regime change. At the very same time, they were literally drilling for an invasion of Venezuela on a life size replica of Maduro's mansion that they had built inside America.

So, yes, they were clearly misleading us. They were clearly telling us that the plan was A when the plan was B, but nobody should be shocked by that because the president lies every single day. Today he is lying about January 6th and issuing a complete rewrite of January 6th that denies the fact that there were violent people beating police officers over the head in the United States capitol in service of Donald Trump's political agenda.

So, every day is a new lie from this guy.

HUNT: All right. Senator Chris Murphy, thank you very much for your time today, sir. I hope you'll come back soon.

MURPHY: Thanks, Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, what Donald Trump is telling House Republicans today about this year's midterm elections. But first, January 6th rioters returned to Washington today on the fifth anniversary of the insurrection, some to apologize and some to gloat.

We'll talk with one lawmaker who was inside the capitol that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA HEMPHILL, REJECTED JANUARY 6 PARDON BY TRUMP: When Donald Trump pardoned us I rejected the pardon. Accepting that pardon would be lying about what happened on January the 6th. I am guilty. And I own that guilt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SCREAMING)

(INAUDIBLE)

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where are they?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While we're here, we might as well set up a government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Five years ago today, that was the scene at the United States Capitol. It was filled with a violent mob of President Trump's supporters. They wanted to stop the counting of electoral votes, confirming Joe Biden's victory.

Right at this hour, five years ago, congressional leaders were being evacuated, while others in the building waited for help that did not appear for hours. Today, five years later, we find ourselves with President Trump back in power and rewriting the history of what happened that day.

This is on the official White House website, quote, "The real January 6th story," it says, "after having already pardoned nearly 1,600 rioters who breached the Capitol, including those who brutally assaulted the brave law enforcement officers there, the Capitol police, who were protecting the historic building, and those of us who were in it that day.

Joining me now, someone who was there that day, Democratic congressman from Colorado, Jason Crow.

Congressman, thanks for being here today.

A lot of our viewers probably know the picture of you in the balcony on January 6th, comforting your colleague Susan Wild. And that takes us to the real story of what happened that day. I'm interested in your reflections on what the White House, what the president is now doing, has done in trying to tell a different story than what we see in that photograph?

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Donald Trump wants America to believe that it never happened. And if it did happen that some very different version of the truth happened. I refused to debate that.

This is not a matter of perspective. It's not a matter of opinion. There is truth. And there are those, like Donald Trump, who want to lie and bend or distort the truth.

But the bottom line is America saw it, right? We all saw it. We lived through it. I lived through it myself. America saw in real time what happened. You just showed the video. So, we know what happened. What's really important right now is we keep the history alive, that we support those officers, 140 of whom were brutally beaten, one of whom was killed as a result of his injuries.

I just met with the family of Brian Sicknick -- Officer Sicknick who died as a result of his injuries. So, we need to support those officers and first responders. We need to keep the history alive and most importantly, we have to understand that the playbook Donald Trump used then is still the one he's using now. HUNT: Why do you think so many Americans are willing to believe the

story that Donald Trump wants to tell about that day?

CROW: Well, I think that's a testament to what's happened to our information environment that people are not gathering information from the same sources, right? The impact of social media, the impact of algorithms. People are in silos, they're in echo chambers. And we have to figure out as a country how we break through that.

And that's a task of elected officials. It's the task of leaders. Its a task, really, of all of us, your friends, your neighbors, your fellow members of your civic organizations.

[16:40;04]

We have to break through those echo chambers in and get back to a point where we all have a common set of facts. We can have civil discourse and debate, and if we can't do that, then we are, as a country, in trouble. So that is one of our most important tasks right now.

HUNT: I want to play a little bit of what the president had to say this morning. He was speaking with Republican lawmakers who are gathered for an event with him. He was joking about canceling elections. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They had the worst policy. We have to even run against these people. Now, I won't say cancel the election. They should cancel the election because the fake news will say he wants the elections canceled. He's a dictator. They always call me a dictator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: What does it say to you? Joking. Not joking clearly says. Well, I'm not going to say that. But what does it say to you that he's bringing it up at all?

CROW: Well, this is Donald Trump's M.O. You know, we've been living with Donald Trump. I've been living with Donald Trump in politics. And as an elected leader for over seven years now, you know, include my campaigns. It's a decade. So I know him well.

This is what he does. It's the normalization of unlawful, and abhorrent behavior. So, he jokes about it.

He floats trial balloons. He tests the waters, and he tries to get people used to it. He tries to get them relaxed and complacent with the idea of terrible things. And then the next thing you know, he's doing them.

So, every time he jokes, we need to take it seriously. We need to be vigilant, and we have to make sure that underneath that joke, we have to understand that underneath that joke is something that Donald Trump is thinking about or testing doing. So, we have to be very vigilant right now. And this is a moment for all Americans to stand up and come to the aid of our democracy.

HUNT: One of the other things that Trump said this morning was that if Democrats win the House in the midterm elections, they would seek to impeach the president, which is, of course, you know, something that he has also used in the context of talking to his supporters about how he has been treated. Is he right that Democrats would potentially impeach the president if they control the House after the elections this year?

CROW: Well, impeachment is something that I happen to know a lot about because I was a prosecutor in Donald Trump's first impeachment trial, one of two. So that is a tool that Congress can use. But there are other tools that Congress can use.

I am not holding my breath that a Democratic controlled Senate and -- I'm sorry, a Republican controlled Senate and a Republican, a Republican controlled House, Jim Jordan or others are going to move and do anything on an impeachment proceeding right now, which is why the midterms are so important. But really, having now battled Donald Trump and Trumpism in this movement for eight years, I'm more interested in structural change. I'm more interested in what we can do to create a movement throughout America to actually impact, change and move beyond the politics of division and destruction of Donald Trump so our country can repair and heal itself.

Accountability is a big part of that. So we have to have a discussion about what accountability looks like. But first we need to win.

HUNT: Very briefly, Congressman, before I let you go, I did want to ask you about this new statement that just came out of the White House, as we were coming on the air, which is about Greenland, and the White House saying that -- the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, saying that the U.S. military not off the table, and that they are looking at options to take Greenland, they've said a version of this before.

But I'm curious, do you think it hits differently after what happened with Nicolas Maduro?

CROW: Yeah, this is another classic example of Donald Trump joking about things and trying to float trial balloons of things that he very well might do. We could wake up next week or next month, and next thing we know, he's done something wild like he did in Venezuela.

So, listen, I was sent to war three times for this country in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know what it's like to be sent to war for oil, to enrich oil executives. Thousands of Americans died as a result of that. We spent over $1 trillion of taxpayer money. We squandered 20 years of lost opportunity.

And when elites bang war drums in Washington, D.C., people like Donald Trump and Stephen Miller talk tough and pound their chest. It's working class kids like me that have to pick up rifles and get into helicopters and do the tough stuff.

So, my job right now is to make sure that our service members and our military are not abused to enrich the elites like Donald Trump and Stephen Miller and the oil executives and the natural resources executives that are padding their pockets as a result of this corrupt administration. And I take that job extremely seriously.

HUNT: All right. Congressman Jason Crow, thanks, as always, for spending some time with us. Hope to see you soon.

CROW: Thank you.

HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, the DOJ misses another deadline related to the Epstein files.

Plus, what's really on the president's mind when it comes to this year's elections.

[16:45:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You got to win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, it's just going to be -- I mean, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached. We don't impeach them. You know why? Because they're meaner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nicolas Maduro captured by U.S. forces.

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": Do you know what this means? Those Epstein files must be crazy.

JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JIMMY FALLON": It turns out Trump's new years resolution was to distract everyone from the Epstein files.

JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!": If you were wondering how bad these Epstein files are for Trump, turns out they're invade Venezuela bad.

[16:50:03]

This is literally the plot of the movie "Wag the Dog".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Late night TV questioning the timing of the U.S. strike in Venezuela. They are not the only ones. The day that Nicolas Maduro was captured, the Justice Department faced another deadline related to the Epstein files. This was a fact that Democrats on the House Oversight Committee were quick to seize on. They said this, quote, "We're sure it's just a coincidence, but today is the statutory date for the DOJ to explain its redactions in the Epstein file productions." Three days later, the DOJ has yet to provide any explanations. And in a new court filing, we are now learning that less than 1 percent of the Epstein files have been released, and the DOJ is still reviewing more than 2 million documents.

That's, of course, just one thorn in the administration's side. Theres also the health insurance premium subsidies that expired just hours before U.S. forces went into Venezuela. So, costs went up for millions of people.

And then today, the president went to what was basically an opening rally for the 2026 midterm elections. This was his simple message.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You got to win the midterms, because if we don't win the midterms, it's just going to be I mean, they'll find a reason to impeach me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. My panel is back.

Jonah Goldberg, is this a wag the dog

GOLDBERG: I actually don't think so. I think, you know, you don't build whole replicas of the Maduro compound planning it as a wag the dog thing for the Epstein thing.

But, you know, not to sound too senatorial. I would like to yield the remainder of my time to Brad, because I know how much he likes to talk about the Epstein files.

HUNT: Oh, it's his favorite subject.

(LAUGHTER)

TODD: I know. Well, we only talked about him 100 of the last 101 days.

So, you know, I think the president has a really good point here. There are two active impeachment resolutions in the hopper in the United States House right now. There have been seven Democrats, eight Democrats have signed on to those resolutions.

He's right. They would impeach him right now if they had the gavel. And Jason Crow on her show here, just told us it's a tool and it's why the midterms are so important. Republicans won't move on it, but that's why we need to win the midterms. They plan on impeaching Donald Trump, and they will make up a reason if they don't find one.

HUNT: Well, and it's politically telling that you started on the Epstein file, said you didn't want to talk about them, and they're talking about impeachment because I think you recognize that it is a tool.

TODD: We're talking about the Epstein files.

HUNT: Do you use? I actually want to play the -- you may recognize this man from January 6th. Of course. This is the five-year anniversary. He became known as the QAnon shaman.

Here's what he said about not supporting Trump and why he doesn't currently support Trump. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: You're still a Trump supporter?

JACOB CHANSLEY, QANON SHAMAN: No, I thought you knew that.

O'SULLIVAN: Why not?

CHANSLEY: The man alone refusing to release the Epstein client list was enough for me. And I think a lot of other people to be like, okay, this is (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: I mean, Brad, does that not just give you a single sound bite? That explains why the Epstein files are such a problem for the president and the MAGA base?

TODD: I got to tell you, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to cobble together 51 percent for Republican candidates. And I spend no time worrying about the QAnon shaman.

And so, it's -- we're going to talk about the Epstein files because Democrats are going to insist on it until they control the Justice Department again, and then we won't talk about them anymore.

There are a lot to go through. I'm sure we're going to all learn more. I hope the victims get justice.

HUNT: It's the MAGA base that wanted this even more than Democrats. Democrats are taking advantage of it, sure, but like, it's the MAGA base that has been beating this drum.

TODD: For sure. But House Democrats are the ones that are trying to keep it in the news every day and are never going to be satisfied with no matter what comes out, until they're back in charge of the files again, like they were for three years.

ELLEITHEE: Half of Donald Trump's administration was trying to keep it in the news every single day until they took office.

TODD: Well, I might share some of that critique.

(LAUGHTER)

HUNT: Look at this.

ELLEITHEE: I mean, we solved it. Yeah, exactly. Bipartisanship.

No, look, I think, the president has had and will continue to have an Epstein files problem as long as they continue to drag their feet on this, as long as they continue to flagrantly violate the law on this. And, you know, I'm kind of with Jonah, like, I don't think that the attack in Venezuela was concocted to distract from Epstein, but I wouldn't be surprised if his team was saying, oh, yeah, that's an added benefit of this, right?

TODD: Oh, sure.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't think people are going to be voting on Epstein. I mean, I just got to tell you, I mean, again, respect to the shaman there. It was very interesting to see his position on things. We all remember his wonderful outfit, and his violent rhetoric.

But, you know, I think, again, what people vote on is their wallets, and especially in this economy.

[16:55:03]

And so the more that Donald Trump focuses on Venezuela, the more the Democrats focus on the Epstein files, the less actually they're focusing on what I think the American people are interested in, which is their pocketbooks.

HUNT: All right.

GOLDBERG: A hundred percent.

HUNT: With that, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: All right. Thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate you guys being here.

Thanks to you at home for watching as well. Don't forget, you can now stream THE ARENA live. You can catch up whenever you want in the CNN app. Just scan that QR code below.

You can also catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcasts. We're also on X and Instagram. We're @TheArenaCNN.

Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".

This is our first live hand-off of the new year, Jake. It's probably for the best that we didn't have one after the Eagles game.