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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Trump Threatens To Invoke Insurrection Act In Minnesota; Tensions Escalate In Minnesota After Another Shooting; White House: Trump "Simply Joking" About Canceling Midterm Elections. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired January 15, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: -- to be speaking outside of Capitol Hill.
[16:00:02]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It will be interesting to see what read she gives of her meeting a short time ago with President Trump. Did she get any assurances? Did he make any commitments, for instance, about democratic elections in Venezuela?
KEILAR: Yeah, we will definitely be watching this closely. And so will Kasie Hunt.
THE ARENA starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday.
Minneapolis once again on edge following a new round of clashes between protesters and federal agents. The situation on the ground is so tense that the Minnesota governor, Tim Walz, is making this plea, writing, quote, "I am making a direct appeal to the president. Let's turn the temperature down. Stop this campaign of retribution. This is not who we are," end quote.
That request comes just hours after President Trump threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Insurrection Act is a tool at the president's disposal. And I think the president's Truth Social post spoke very loud and clear to Democrats across this country, elected officials who are using their platforms to encourage violence against federal law enforcement officers, who are encouraging left wing agitators to unlawfully obstruct legitimate law enforcement operations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: This latest round of unrest follows another shooting in Minneapolis last night. The Department of Homeland Security saying that a federal agent shot a man in the leg while being assaulted by three people who were using a shovel or broomstick. DHS says all three suspects are undocumented immigrants, and that the agent was hospitalized with non-life-threatening injuries. We at CNN have not yet been able to independently verify the details of this incident.
But late last night, as new protests erupted in the streets of Minneapolis, the mayor, Jacob Frey, called on everyone to demonstrate peacefully and to not, quote, "take the bait".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JACOB FREY (D), MINNEAPOLIS: This is not sustainable. This is an impossible situation that our city is presently being put in. We have residents that are asking the very limited number of police officers that we have to fight ICE agents on the street to stand by their neighbors. We cannot be at a place right now in America where we have two governmental entities that are literally fighting one another.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right, let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA. My panel is going to be here.
We are also going to get started with CNN correspondent Julia Vargas Jones. She is live on the ground in Minneapolis, and we are joined by CNN's security correspondent Josh Campbell.
Julia, I will start with you. Walk us through what you've been seeing on the ground there after a very volatile night last night
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Look, usually, Kasie, as you know, these things are very different at night as they are in the daytime. We're seeing basically tensions rise at times here outside the Whipple Federal Building where protesters, about between 100, 150 of them, I would estimate, have been gathering for a couple of hours at least.
There is, you know, something we've seen before. Theres a flare up of tensions, all of that frustration from these protesters in response to these shootings being vocalized here, sometimes more forcefully than others.
And as federal agents come in and out of the building, we see a big flare up in those tensions, and then things cool down for a bit after that. Look, right before we got here, some witnesses who were here that we spoke to said that agents came out. There was some kind of a -- some activity going on, I'll say outside, allegedly. And agents came out and fired some kind of projectiles not at the crowd, but near the crowd that then dissipated.
There was still a little bit of that in the air when we got here. Unclear what that was. Mostly it's been like this, and I think it goes to what you were just saying about what the mayor, Jacob Frey, asking people to remain peaceful, to not play into the hand of the administration, as he said. But this is what we're hearing time and again, expletives and a very vocal discontentment with these agents.
Well, we have been seen, by the way, as these cars walk in, drive in to the federal building is masked agents inside SUVs, darkened SUVs, unmarked as we've seen across the city and in other cities as well. In this discontentment up and down.
Now, again, it's unclear what will happen in the coming hours. Hours as people get out of work and night falls. But so far, it has been just very clear that that discontentment and that frustration, Kasie, people saying, look, I had to take time off to stand here in the cold because this was very important to me.
[16:05:08]
But then there is still some of the elements of playfulness. There was a young woman playing Disney songs and some people trying to keep the atmosphere a little bit lighter and trying to de-escalate this kind of encounters.
But I have to say, just from being here for the past couple hours, it's very difficult. The moment that there are some federal agents that come out. The crowd just erupts, and it will be interesting to see what happens in the coming hours.
HUNT: Julia Vargas Jones, thank you very much for that.
Josh Campbell, I want to play for you something that we heard earlier today from the homeland security secretary, Kristi Noem, about what Americans should be doing on the streets. Let's watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Every single action that our ICE officers take is according to the law and following protocols that we have used for years that this administration has used, that the previous administration used. They are doing everything correctly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So based on you and what you and everyone in the country is seeing right now in some of these videos, are ICE agents doing everything correctly?
CAMPBELL: That is not a view that is universally held even within law enforcement. There are law enforcement experts who have pointed out there have been so many of these videos that we've seen gone viral, showing interactions between immigration officers and members of the public, where it appears that you do see instances of excessive force, where, you know, if an ICE agent is trying to arrest someone, there's that added component, almost of punishment, where you know, someone's tackled or thrown to the ground.
We saw a video recently of a man who was basically thrown into oncoming traffic. And so, it's those kinds of things that are really, you know, serving to fuel a lot of this. I think, as well, when you see those tactics, I think we have to stipulate, though, and we have to say this over and over again, if you impede the actions of an immigration officer, that is against the law, that is a crime, and they will arrest you. They've said as much. That's, you know, part of U.S. law. If people don't like that, they can, you know, write their legislator, try to change the law.
And so, there isn't really a dispute within the law enforcement community that they can arrest people. It's more about the method, the mechanism that they're using. A lot of times to do this, where it does seem, you know, a bit aggressive. I should also note that there's a different category here of interaction.
Now, yesterday what we saw was immigration officers who were allegedly assaulted by people using shovels. One of those agents opened fire. That is a clear under law enforcement policy, if someone is coming at you with a deadly weapon, you can use deadly force. But what we saw after that were these protests just erupting in the street.
And, you know, we heard some of the people that were out there didn't really even appear that maybe they had all the facts regarding what was actually happening, but they came because they heard this was yet another ICE encounter that resulted in someone being harmed.
And so there really seems to be very little appetite here, I think, from, from either side to talk about the nuance. I mean, the fact of the matter is this has already been infused so much with politics. You have some on the left who think that law enforcement can do no right. You have many in the administration who think that law enforcement can do no wrong here. And when you have an excessive force situation that might be questionable, that doesn't really leave a lot of room for nuance and a sober discussion.
HUNT: All right. Josh Campbell, stand by for us. Our panel, and you'll be part of our conversation.
The panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN political analyst, host and editorial director at "Vox", Astead Herndon; CNN political commentator, former White House -- Trump White House communications director, Alyssa Farah Griffin; former Democratic congressman from New York, Max Rose; and CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings.
Welcome to all of you. It's great to see you on set in New York.
But, Josh Campbell, I want to stick with you for a second because I want to play a little bit more of what Kristi Noem said. It's been getting quite a bit of attention, and this is about carrying papers, right? Do Americans need to carry their citizenship papers? Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Why are we seeing Americans being asked on the street to provide proof of citizenship in Minnesota? Is that targeted enforcement? And are you advising Americans to carry proof of citizenship?
NOEM: In every situation were doing targeted enforcement, if we are on a target and doing an operation, there may be individuals surrounding that criminal that we may be asking who they are and why they're there, and having them validate their identity. That's what we've always done, and asking people who they are so that we know who's in those surroundings and if they are breaking our federal laws, we will detain them as well until we run that process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Josh Campbell, can the government stop you and ask you for your papers?
CAMPBELL: Not for any reason at all. And this has been another flashpoint in this whole debate, where we've seen a lot of these encounters, where it appears that immigration agents will just go up to people in their neighborhoods and say, are you an American? Where were you born?
And interestingly, you know, agents do have wide latitude in questioning people. The bar is quite low, but they can't just stop you for any reason. They have to have some reasonable suspicion that there's some -- something else at play here.
[16:10:02]
But this is really fascinating because this is one area where I think we've seen a little bit of common ground between the left and the right. Obviously, you have people on the left who are saying this is, you know, smacks of authoritarianism. You have these heavily armed people walking up to people and demanding their citizenship.
But we even heard recently from conservative podcaster Joe Rogan, who pointed out and said, look, this is kind of gestapo like, right, where you have people essentially demanding your papers. I wonder if that will be throttled back a little bit, that kind of tactic.
You know, it doesn't, you know, at least appear from some of these videos that these are the worst of the worst criminals, that they're just stopping on the street and demanding to know their citizenship. But that certainly raised a lot of eyebrows. We'll see where that goes.
HUNT: So, to this point, we just have some new -- we have some new video. This is just in the CNN. I want to bring the conversation back to my panel. We're going to play this new video and it gives you a sense of what this may look and feel like in real life, to have the government stop you and say, show me, prove to me that you belong here. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am U.S. citizen.
ICE AGENT: Do you have an I.D. on you, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't need an ID to walk around in my city. This is my city. ICE AGENT: Do you have some ID then, please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't need it.
ICE AGENT: If not, we're going to put you in the vehicle. We're going to ID you. Where were you born?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my home.
ICE AGENT: Where were you born?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Minneapolis is my home.
ICE AGENT: Ma'am, that's not -- we're doing an immigration check. We're doing a citizenship check.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is -- this is where --
ICE AGENT: We're asking you where you were born.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is where I belong. This is my home.
ICE AGENT : You belong here, but where were you born?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am citizen, this is my home.
ICE AGENT: Realize that if you lie of being a U.S. citizen --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Minneapolis is my home.
ICE AGENT : -- then you can get federal charges.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I belong here. I'm sorry, I belong here. I'm not going to check out an ID. What the fuck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Pretty remarkable scene there.
Alyssa Farah Griffin, let me let me start with you. Is this -- is this American?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think Josh makes a good point that this is going to highlight some rifts, both on the left, who are obviously deeply opposed to this enforcement, but also on the right, any sort of civil libertarians who care about the First Amendment and the Fourth Amendment, I think are going to be concerned when it feels like you're expected that you have to have your papers on you.
On any given day, if you stop me in New York and ask for my ID, the likelihood that I'm actually going to have that is a U.S. born citizen is also very low. But what I'm nervous about in the coming hours and days ahead is the potential clash that you could have between federal government deployed U.S. troops if, in fact, the Insurrection Act is invoked and then the state and local police, as well as the potential that the governor ends up calling up the Minnesota national guard.
That's where something like this, which already feels like a tinderbox, could get very, very dangerous. You have people reporting to different authorities. The federal force, as well as those reporting to the state, and the questions over what their jobs are and where they come into conflict could very, very quickly escalate and come into conflict with each other.
HUNT: Scott Jennings, do you carry your papers?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I carry an ID, I if I'm driving.
HUNT: An ID doesn't prove your U.S. citizenship. A driver's license doesn't. Do you carry your passport, your Social Security card?
JENNINGS: I do carry my passport, actually. Everywhere I go. Keep it in my backpack. I travel a lot. I use it sometimes.
Look, I didn't hear the resolution to that, by the way. And I didn't hear a direct answer to the question either. I'd love to know how that interaction turned.
HUNT: Are you comfortable with that?
JENNINGS: I'm comfortable with the federal government enforcing U.S. immigration laws and these kinds of distractions take away from the story of the day. You had an ICE agent last night chasing down a Venezuelan national. That Venezuelan national attacked him and fought him. Two other Venezuelan nationals ran out of a house and attacked him with brooms, handles and shovels, which are deadly weapons. He had to discharge his weapon.
Three illegal aliens trying to kill an ICE agent in the street, and were worried about interactions like this. This is outrageous. The state of Minnesota is in a state of insurrection right now. The governor is egging it on. The mayor is egging it on. If they want it to stop, cooperate with the federal government like states and cities are doing all over this country.
HUNT: Isn't the point of using very careful policing tactics and making sure that the use of force is documented and justified, doesn't it protect agents in the situation that you're describing, right, where an agent does find himself in a situation and he does something, he uses force in a justified way? Doesn't an environment that encourages the community to support that agent? Big picture, help?
JENNINGS: I agree with you. If the -- if the community were being encouraged to support the agents, that would be good. They're being encouraged to confront the agents, to blow whistles in their faces, to agitate them.
These police officers are being expected to exhibit superhuman patience that I would suspect none of us would be able to do.
GRIFFIN: But the federal government -- JENNINGS: We're being confronted this way. And again, I just go back
to the story in question. Three illegal aliens beating a man with a shovel. What is he supposed to do?
GRIFFIN: But the federal government also is not coordinating with the state. This investigation that the states been largely left out.
JENNINGS: -- of coordination.
[16:15:03]
GRIFFIN: This -- the state has not been included in the investigation.
JENNINGS: Who is denying cooperation, Alyssa? It's a sanctuary city. They --
GRIFFIN: And by the way, I don't support sanctuary cities. How do --
JENNINGS: You do this on the feds. How do you get cooperation in all kinds of other states?
GRIFFIN: Because how do you deal with a legitimate law enforcement investigation without the local police? How do -- how do you just leave them out?
JENNINGS: What do you mean?
HUNT: It is the FBI and the federal.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: So in the case of Renee Good, initially, they were both involved and then the federal government said, nope, we're not going to include this.
JENNINGS: So the local police are saying and the local politicians say we won't cooperate with you on enforcing the law, but when something happens, we expect to be included? That's not how this works, okay? Because the politicians who run the cops there have already branded this man a murderer. Do you think that's going to be fair? I do not.
HUNT: Scott, I appreciate that we are now having a conversation I think we need I do need to underscore that CNN has not confirmed some of the details. Scott, I appreciate that you're bringing them into the conversation, but it's important for us. We're still working to confirm the details of the incident with the shooting that involved the Venezuelan nationals, that Scott is highlighting. Those details are not details that we as an organization have reported at this point.
And I want to bring the conversation back to whether or not we want to be living in a country where ICE is walking around and asking people for their papers. ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah. I mean, I kind of you
said that because of what allegedly happened yesterday, that means that we don't care about what that scene here. I think we have space to care about both. And I think that's the concern among many in is a Trump administration that has unleashed tactics that the logical result is this chaos.
I mean, I think that we have to put this in context. This comes after months and months of the White House revving up to do these actions and actually embracing Customs and Border Patrol tactics that were meant to be a show. Now, because of that context, I don't think it's actually surprising that has led to these type of clashes. These clashes the federal government have goaded is the clashes the federal government have basically baited folks into. And I think that's the reaction we're really seeing on the ground.
I don't think it's fair to say that Walz or Frey have not tried to lower the temperature. What does Walz doing today except doing that exact thing?
The important part, I think also too, is that the way the White House is trying to rewrite what Americans have seen has not worked with the public. Also, every piece of opinion polling or anything we have seen about Americans reaction to the shooting, my reporting also has seen a universal kind of condemnation.
I think the onus remains on the state and the government to justify the actions that they're taking, to say that they're actually seeking to protect communities rather than this, to put the onus on these communities to work around these violent tactics.
HUNT: Congressman, I mean, you repped Staten Island in Congress, right? It's a district with lots of cops, firefighters, working class people who often are on the side of law enforcement. What say you about this?
MAX ROSE, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, first of all, I think it should be noted that ICE agents are being put by the president of the United States in a deeply unfair situation to them as well. This is an institution that has been dramatically expanded in size. They're just now talking about things like body cameras because they were woefully unprepared for a situation like this, which is not associated with their actual mission set and intent, undertrained and I believe receiving, for all intents and purposes, jacked up by vitriol from the president of the United States and the Republican Party writ large.
So yes, what's happening is tragic, but it's also inevitable because of the situation that they have been put in. We should also take a step back here and remember that for years, law enforcement, local law enforcement were actually supporters of sanctuary city policy because it made it far more likely that undocumented immigrants would participate and support law enforcement during acts of criminal investigations that they would actually coordinate with them, give evidence of things that they were aware of. Now, that has been totally and utterly broken down, leaving the entire public safety of that city and that state degraded. JENNINGS: Should the -- should the Democrats in Minnesota allow DHS
into the jails and honor DHS requests to take illegal aliens that they have picked up in the jails? Yes or no?
ROSE: First of all, I do think that there's consensus around going after violent criminals, right?
JENNINGS: That's because they won't let them into the jail.
GRIFFIN: Ninety-seven percent of Americans support deporting.
JENNINGS: They won't -- they won't let them in to the jails in Minnesota. That's why they have to send ICE agents to get them off the streets. They're not in the jails.
ROSE: Will you please -- just one second. There is -- there is consensus. There is -- there is consensus around going after violent criminals out of the country. Scott --
GRIFFIN: Honestly, I'm fine with them getting due process in American jails. I would prefer that over them being deported without due process. That's the American way.
HUNT: We are running way out of time --
GRIFFIN: In the jails. I'm fine.
HUNT: Very quick last word to you.
ROSE: There is zero consensus for ICE agents approaching law abiding individuals on the street based off of the color of their skin and what they look like asking them to show them their papers. You don't need to do that because of what you look like, and neither do I. The United States of America is not based around those values, and that's what people are opposing here.
HUNT: All right. Josh Campbell, thank you very much for standing by. I really appreciate it.
The rest of our panel are going to be with us throughout the hour.
Coming up here in THE ARENA, one Democrat in Congress introducing a bill today to impeach Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem. We're going to talk with another member of the caucus. New York Congressman Dan Goldman is here live.
Plus, how the White House is responding today after the president again talks about canceling the midterm elections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You said that he was joking about canceling the elections, but Americans for generations have fought and died for democracy, for this democracy. Are you saying the president finds the idea of canceling elections funny?
LEAVITT: Andrew, were you in the room? No, you weren't. I was in the room. I heard the conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:25:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NOEM: We did discuss the Insurrection Act. He certainly has the constitutional authority to utilize that. My hope is that this leadership team in Minnesota will start to work with us to get criminals off the streets
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem confirming today that she did, in fact, discuss the Insurrection Act with President Trump. Noem's comments, coming briefly after the president posted on his Truth Social platform this, meaning, this morning that he would be willing to invoke the Insurrection Act in Minnesota amid escalating protests on the streets in Minneapolis.
Joining me now in THE ARENA to discuss Democratic congressman from New York, Dan Goldman.
Congressman, thank you very much. Very grateful to have you.
REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): Great to be here.
HUNT: Do you think the president is going to invoke the Insurrection Act?
GOLDMAN: I mean, if you're asking me to put myself in Donald Trump's brain, there's no possible way I can do that. But this is something that I saw long ago, and it is part of a clear pattern that he was setting up. You send in violent ICE agents to inflame tension, to incite violence themselves. Then you say, oh, there's so much unrest.
He will say, there's so much unrest and chaos. We need the Insurrection Act so that he can usurp more power and send the military in. Then what he's going to say is, oh, well, we have an insurrection all over our country. We have the military. We can't possibly have free and fair elections.
And it just so happens he mentioned both the Insurrection Act and no election that we can't have an election both today. It's not a coincidence. This is how his brain works. And he's generally says the quiet part out loud. And it is absolutely no coincidence that he says both of those things on the same day.
HUNT: I want to put up what the -- what the president did say, and were going to talk about it in our next block also. But he did this interview with "Reuters", and he did say this quote, when you think of it, we shouldn't even have an election. Now, Karoline Leavitt, the press secretary was asked directly abouts today. She said he was just joking. Do you feel like we can believe the president is joking about things?
GOLDMAN: So this brings me back to when he went and met with House Republicans right after the election last November, and he joked with them about a third term. I've spent a lot of time, studying Donald Trump from the first impeachment to now, and he doesn't joke. And I introduced a resolution to reaffirm the 22nd Amendment, which says you cannot serve a third term.
And a lot of people mocked me for it. Then, of course, what we saw was a familiar pattern where he normalizes it. He gets some members of Congress to introduce resolutions to support it. And now he's been very open about doing it. He doesn't joke. He does not joke. He is laying a seed that then the right-wing ecosphere will start trying to normalize and start trying to say that this is what we need to do. And he has his whole network operating.
And so I don't -- I don't believe he's joking at all.
HUNT: One thing that he's also said about the midterm elections besides from the joke about his -- what they claim is a joke about canceling them is that if Democrats take the house, he will be impeached again by Democrats. Is that the plan? Will Democrats impeach him if they win the House?
GOLDMAN: The plan is for us to do a lot of oversight and accountability. The Republicans in Congress have done none. They have completely abdicated their responsibility in the majority to be a check and balance on this president. And so, you can be sure that we will be initiating a bunch of investigations if they ultimately lead to impeachment, they lead to impeachment. But I'm certainly not prejudging anything. And -- but I am eager to initiate those investigations.
HUNT: Are you going to sign on to the bill to impeach Kristi Noem that was introduced?
GOLDMAN: Yes.
HUNT: A number of your colleagues signed on to it today?
GOLDMAN: Yes. Kristi Noem, it's to me, it is more just a another way of sending a message that Kristi Noem is not only inept and incompetent, she's incredibly dangerous. We cannot wait for an impeachment to play out. She should be fired today.
And next week when we deal with the appropriations, we need to deal directly with Kristi Noem's Department of Homeland Security, which is just completely out of control and has turned into essentially a militia that is terrorizing cities, Democratic cities all around the country.
HUNT: Joe Rogan, the podcaster who supported Donald Trump in the last election, has called the tactics that we're seeing -- he's compared them to the gestapo.
[16:30:07]
Is that a comparison that you would make?
GOLDMAN: Look, I think when you have masked agents who are going around violently ripping people, American citizens out of their cars, who are violently arresting people who are protesting. And worse yet, and I think this is what Joe Rogan was talking about, actually going up to people and demanding to see their citizenship papers. That is so un-American and anti-democratic. That is not what this country is about.
Much of what ICE is doing is really un-American. And so, what you're seeing is an objection not to the notion of making sure that immigrants who have committed felonies are deported. You're seeing an objection to this militarized secret police force that is going in and terrorizing. And it's not just immigrants, it's American citizens. It's everybody.
And that is unacceptable. It's un-American. And that's what the objection is to.
HUNT: Do you carry papers?
GOLDMAN: No, of course not. I mean, were an American in America. Nobody has to carry papers.
But the thing that's, of course, so noteworthy about it, nobody's coming up to me to ask me for my identity. I'm white. They are using racial profiling, blatantly using racial profiling with Brett -- which Brett Kavanaugh initially affirmed that they could do and then tried to roll back in a footnote of another Supreme Court opinion.
But they are literally going up to people who are of Latino descent or Black descent, and they are asking for their papers because they, quote, "look like immigrants". It's disgusting. It's un-American, and it's unacceptable.
And Kristi Noem is enabling this, and she needs to be fired right away.
HUNT: Briefly, before I let you go, I know you've got some complicated New York City politics on your doorstep in your race to get reelected to the U.S. House, how would you grade the mayor's performance so far?
GOLDMAN: I think it's way -- way too early to tell. You know, I hope that he is successful for New York City. And he's certainly identified a lot of problems that we do have here. And that hopefully we can improve, especially on affordability. And I'm rooting for him and eager to work with him to make things better.
But it is a complicated job. It's a difficult job. So we'll have to see how -- how it goes.
HUNT: All right. Congressman Dan Goldman, very grateful to have you here today. Thanks very much.
GOLDMAN: Thank you.
HUNT: All right. Coming up, how members of the president's party are responding to his latest threat to invoke the Insurrection Act in Minnesota. We're going to talk with one of them, Republican congressman Michael McCaul, former chairman of the homeland security committee. He'll be here live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:37:17]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: President Trump has talked twice in recent days, once at the Kennedy Center and then to "Reuters" again last night about canceling the election. Why is he talking about this?
LEAVITT: The president was simply joking. He was saying, we're doing such a great job. We're doing everything the American people thought maybe we should just keep rolling. But he was speaking facetiously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT : That was the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, telling reporters today that President Trump was, quote, simply joking about canceling the midterm elections. Her comments come after Trump's interview with "Reuters" yesterday, where he lowered expectations about GOP wins in November, bragged about his administrations accomplishments by saying in part, quote, when you think of it, we shouldn't even have an election. So, this is an interview today.
I want to play for you some other comments that the president has made in this midterm election year about the midterm elections. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You got to win the midterms, because if we don't win the midterms, it's just going to be -- I mean, they'll find a reason to impeach me. Whoever wins the presidency, the other party wins the midterm. And it doesn't make sense. We have to even run against these people.
Now, I won't say cancel the election. They should cancel the election because the fake news will say he wants the elections canceled. He's a dictator.
We've done a great job. We've done maybe the best job ever in the first year, but they always seem to lose the midterm. There's something down deep psychologically with the voters that they want. Maybe a check or something. I don't know what it is exactly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Is it a joke, Alyssa? Is it a joke?
GRIFFIN : He's -- he's trolling. It's wholly irresponsible. But he is trolling. There are going to be midterm elections. They're administered by the state. That is going to happen.
I think this is were watching the public process play out of the president accepting that the House is very likely going to go to the Democrats. And I think he does have that reflex of knowing what that looks like last time he was in office in 2018, and that there will be investigations. There will be a level of accountability that I think the administration has largely avoided to this point. But there are going to be midterm elections.
HUNT: Scott, are there going to be midterm elections?
JENNINGS: Yes. I'll bet everybody here a steak dinner. We'll have a midterm election.
HUNT: Oh, great.
JENNINGS: I'll bet you a steak dinner. And if we have an election, you can all buy me one.
HUNT: We'll probably be here.
JENNINGS: Of course. This is the new bloodbath, right? I mean, we're going to take this out of context. And Karoline explained it perfectly.
I mean, what he's saying is, my gosh, we're doing so well, we shouldn't even have to, you know, have a question about this. Of course, we're going to have elections and we'll see what the American people want to do. I'm not convinced that the outcome is already predetermined. Historically, the party out of power should do well. They're going to have an economic story to tell.
[16:40:01]
I'm convinced about that in 2026. But the president is a realist. He knows what history tells us about midterms. And by the way, he's right about impeachment. His opponents tell people every day that everything he does is illegal. If they win the House, their base isn't going to forget that. They're going to expect him to be impeached for all of his illegal actions. So, he has good reason to say --
GRIFFIN: And it will die in the senate because they're not winning a supermajority in the Senate.
JENNINGS: But that won't stop the impeachment from happening.
HERNDON: I think that's fair. I think that we really do see a White House that has wrestled, obviously previously in its first term with an oppositional house. He knows the impact of that. And I think that's kind of looming over this midterm discussion.
You know, I think Donald Trump has, whether it's this or the third term joke, he likes this version of ribbing. He wants the kind of media conversation that comes from it. It's all indications, obviously, I think we should expect to have a midterm.
But the -- but the -- I think the larger point is an important one. You know, he says maybe the folks want a check. And that's obviously quite true. Oftentimes, the American people obviously do want oftentimes a limit on kind of power. And I think it's a recognition that sometimes these administrations come in with different ideas than what the public brought them there to do.
And I frankly think we're seeing this with the White House. This is about egg prices. It's about tariffs. And I don't think they've really followed through on the premise of what brought them there. That oftentimes leads to the midterms backlash.
ROSE: If you had told me on January 7th, 2021, that a mere five years later, we would once again be joking about whether or not Donald Trump, you know, is taking our democracy seriously or whether or not he represents an existential threat to our constitutional principles, this is absolutely astounding we are debating this. Words matter. They have consequences. We saw that on January 6th, 2021, and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would deploy tools and resources to disrupt a midterm election. It's something that should be taken seriously, and it's not something you should joke about, and I am looking forward to that steak dinner.
JENNINGS: So after we have the midterm elections, no matter who wins or who lose, when we have the elections as scheduled, you will take me out to dinner here in New York City.
ROSE: I'd love to have dinner with you. I've enjoyed -- I've enjoyed --
JENNINGS: I'll hold you to it.
ROSE: I've always enjoyed --
JENNINGS: I'm not a cheap date.
HUNT: Peter Luger, okay?
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Alyssa, I mean, you were in the first Trump administration, and you also spent a considerable amount of your professional life working for Mike Pence, who, of course, found himself on the wrong end of President Trump's political interests and will. And we did learn just how far the president was willing to take, what the kind of thing that some people had said was a joke.
GRIFFIN: So honest take here. Listen, I still live with the voice of Mick Mulvaney in my head saying, of course, he's going to peacefully leave office. Of course, he's not going to challenge the election if he loses in 2020. And of course, then we saw January 6th.
So, I don't like to say anything too definitively. I see the midterms as very different than leaving office. And what I mean by that, he doesn't want to deal with the headache of oversight, of cabinet officials getting called before Congress, of likely impeachment in the house. That will go absolutely nowhere in the Senate. That's very different than when he was leaving office after losing to Joe Biden.
Now, this time, I think he's learned a lot of lessons and rules of the road preemptively. Pardon some folks. Give yourself a blanket pardon. And I think he's going to go off into the sunset as an 82-year-old man, I'm going to say that today now.
But I think because he's not afraid of what's on the other side, the way that he may have been in 2020.
HERNDON: Also, we've seen Donald Trump have a built-in excuse for midterm or off year election losses. He just blames the candidates, right? He does not --
GRIFFIN: Yeah. He's not --
HERNDON: -- something that reflects on his personal political legacy because he hasn't really shown an interest in having that extend to party broadly.
So I do think the kind of broader question of Republican chances here, whether he's dragging them down is a real one. But I don't think I see -- I don't see the White House as taking that as to Donald Trump's individual legacy, because the track record is they'll just blame the candidates.
GRIFFIN: He's way less emotional when other Republicans lose than when he does.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Well, aren't we, I have to say.
All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, new arrests today at protests in Minneapolis as tensions escalate between demonstrators and federal agents. We're going to talk to Republican Congressman Michael McCaul.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:45:29]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back.
We are continuing to keep an eye on what's unfolding in Minneapolis, where anti-ICE protesters have flared up again after another shooting. That as DHS Secretary Kristi Noem says that ICE may ask people to, quote, validate their identity. CNN just getting a new video of four border patrol agents approaching a woman in Minneapolis and asking her to verify whether she's a U.S. citizen.
Let's watch a little bit of that interaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am a U.S. citizen.
ICE AGENT: Do you have an ID on you, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't need an ID to walk around in in my city. This is -
ICE AGENT: Okay. Do you have some ID then, please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't need an ID.
ICE AGENT: If not, we're going to put you in the vehicle. We're going to ID you. Where were you born?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my home.
ICE AGENT: Where were you born?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Minneapolis is my home.
ICE AGENT: Ma'am, that's not -- we're doing an immigration check. We're doing a citizenship check.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is -- this is where --
ICE AGENT: We're asking you where you were born.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is where I belong. This is my home.
ICE AGENT : You belong here, but where were you born?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Joining me now, Republican Congressman from Texas, Michael McCaul. He's chairman emeritus of the House Foreign Affairs and Homeland Security Committees.
Congressman, always great to see you. Thank you very much for being here.
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): Thank you. Thanks, Kasie.
HUNT: Is that interaction that we just saw? Are you comfortable with ICE doing that -- with asking people walking down the street for papers?
MCCAUL: Right. Yeah. Kind of show my papers allegation. I -- that's not the normal practice I would say. I think in the current conditions they're facing now in Minnesota, and given the violence and the widespread emotions, quite frankly, then I think they're doing this as a security precaution.
[16:50:05] I would urge both sides to calm down in this situation. I was a federal prosecutor for many years. I don't like throwing law enforcement in these kind of situations. You know, we've had 1,000 percent increase in assaults on ICE federal officers just in recent times. And I think it's escalating, not de-escalating.
And that -- I think both sides are to blame for this. I think the rhetoric can be toned down a lot, to be honest.
HUNT: Joe Rogan, the podcast host, referred to the situations where people are being asked for papers for, you know, to show that their citizenship as gestapo like tactics. Would you agree with or use that characterization?
MCCAUL: Well, I think if an officer feels threatened in any way and they are, they are taking a lot of verbal abuse that's gone up like 8,000 percent, I think. Then it is appropriate for an officer to ask for identification if they feel in any way, verbally or physically threatened. And that's happening a lot in this situation in Minnesota. So it's not a normal situation.
I -- again, I think toning down this look, the whole purpose of ICE, in my judgment, is to go after the criminal aliens, the aggravated felons, which, by the way, the prior administration let so many of them in.
The reason as on the Homeland Security Committee, we did impeach Mayorkas because he defied federal law that required him to detain aggravated felons and instead says, you have discretion. And as a result of that, now we have all these aggravated felons, seven out of ten arrests now are criminal aliens.
That's what ICE is trying to do right now. And I think they're really being put in a really bad situation. I would like a cooling off period. I know it's cold in Minnesota and a lot of levels, but I think both sides need to tone it down and maybe take a little breather.
HUNT: Do you see a distinction between someone, an officer asking you for identification? You know, tell me who you are, right? If you have any interaction with a police officer, they ask you, hey, can I see your driver's license? Is there a distinction between that? Right? You being willing to say, this is my name, this is where I live, you know, this is who I am versus an officer saying, where were you born? Where do you come from?
MCCAUL: Right. Well, they're obviously looking at their immigrant status by asking that question. You know, just the average passerby. Theres no reasonable suspicion to, you know, ask that kind of question. I think, if an individual, you know, not to get too legalistic starts in, in a threatening manner, both verbally or physically, the officer is entitled to ask those types of questions.
This is a really heightened emotional setting right now, and I worry that you're going to see perhaps more violence if we don't stop what's happening right now in Minnesota. It's a sanctuary city, and therefore that means a lot of immigrants have been drawn to as magnets to Minnesota. So, you have probably a higher preponderance of illegals in that area.
But again, let's prioritize these arrests and deportations. Let's go after the aggravated felons. Let's not harass the average citizen on the street.
HUNT: Sir, you, of course, also led the foreign affairs committee in congress. And I want to ask you your thoughts on Iran in particular, because there does seem to be a sense that there may be some imminent action from the administration. Would you like to see the Trump administration take advantage of what's going on on the ground to try and initiate regime change in Iran?
MCCAUL: Well, I've wanted this -- advocated this since 1979, when the ayatollah came into power. I've had so many briefings, Kasie, both classified and unclassified on how -- how can we empower the people of Iran to achieve freedom and not be under the theocracy oppression of the ayatollah, and indeed, really three things for that to happen. Leadership, which I don't see any clear leadership in Iran that can do this currently you need you need weapons and you also need adequate communications both inside and outside of Iran.
Some of those programs have been under threat that I fought to maintain funding for Voice of America, Office of Technology Fund. So we have communication capabilities to organize with inside of Iran. I will also say that I -- without divulging anything that I it's my -- as a -- as a -- just a member, not a chairman that I'm sure Israel is in there and their intelligence capacity and that we are working with them in that form.
I think it's in the best interest of the world for us to go forward without the ayatollah in power.
[16:55:04]
But what we don't want to do is provoke some sort of regime change without a plan B after that happens. And we've seen that in our history.
HUNT: All right. Congressman Michael McCaul, very grateful to have you on the show. Thanks very much for being here. Hope you'll come back soon.
MCCAUL: Yeah. Thanks, Kasie. Thanks for having me.
HUNT: All right. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: All right. Thank you guys so much for joining me. Really fun to be in New York with all of you.
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