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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Trump On Immigration Tactics: Maybe We Could Use "Softer Touch"; Police Probe Possible Ransom Notes In Nancy Guthrie Disappearance; Bill Gatese: Regret "Every Minute" Spent With Epstein. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired February 04, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: -- have carcinogens in them, so this is a valid concern.
[16:00:02]
But that has not led to population wide problems over the last several decades now.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: All right. We'll be looking. It's important to follow up on that.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you.
And THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Wednesday.
Right now in Minneapolis, the Trump administration is withdrawing hundreds of federal agents as the president himself acknowledges the need for a, quote, "softer touch".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM LLAMAS, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Mr. President, speaking of Minneapolis, what did you learn?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I learned that maybe we can use a little bit of a softer touch, but you still have to be tough. These are criminals. We're dealing with really hard criminals.
But look, I've called the people. I've called the governor. I've called the mayor, spoke to him, had great conversations with him. And then I see them ranting and raving out there, literally, as though a call wasn't made.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: This morning, the White House border czar Tom Homan announced that effective today, the Department of Homeland Security will withdraw 700 personnel from Minnesota, leaving about 2,000 in place. In just a moment, I'll speak with the Minneapolis mayor, Jacob Frey, who says that although this is a step in the right direction, it is not deescalation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LLAMAS: That big change on immigration, 700 officers leaving Minneapolis, did that come from you?
TRUMP: Yes, it did. But it didn't come from me because I just wanted to do it. We have -- we are waiting for them to release prisoners. Give us the murderers that they're holding and all of the bad people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: This drawdown comes after weeks of outrage following the killing of two American citizens, Renee Good and Alex Pretti, by federal agents.
Amid the protests, state and local leaders have called for a complete end to federal operations in the city. Homan today said that's possible, but only if things change on the ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, BORDER CZAR: My goal, with the support of President Trump is to achieve a complete drawdown and end this surge as soon as we can, but that is largely contingent upon the end of the illegal and threatening activities against ICE and its federal partners that we're seeing in the community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right, let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. My panel is standing by.
But first, let's get right to CNN's senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes.
Kristen, this was a pretty remarkable admission from President Trump, essentially unprompted, he was just asked, what have you learned? And he said that it needs a softer touch.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it's a rare concession when it comes to President Trump. He often doubles down on anything that he's doing. And in the past, when he's been asked what he's learned in various situations, he certainly doesn't admit to any kind of wrongdoing. However, the term softer touch obviously implies that things could have been done differently.
And while this goes against the rhetoric we've heard from President Trump, even just as recently as when he was at the "Melania" film premiere, and he said that he wouldn't be drawing down agents in Minneapolis, it certainly aligns with what we were hearing was going on behind closed doors, which was the administration was looking for an off ramp when it came to Minneapolis. And they were understanding, as President Trump among them, that this didn't look good, that this wasn't playing well for the administration.
It certainly wasn't going well either. President Trump has seen all of the polling numbers when it comes to his immigration tactics. So, the fact that they're actually drawing down numbers of agents there, the fact that they understand, at least to some extent, at least President Trump does that this situation got out of control. That goes, again, with what we've been hearing happening behind closed doors.
And so, what you're seeing now is Tom Homan doing exactly what he was slated to do, which was go into the into Minneapolis, into Minnesota, work with these various officials and turn the temperature down. They are very much aware that right now things are incredibly heated. And that's why you've seen Homan in these back to back meetings with these local officials trying to again, turn the temperature down and find an off ramp for the administration when it comes to the immigration crackdown in that state.
HUNT: All right. Kristen Holmes kicking us off this this afternoon -- Kristen, thank you very much for that.
And joining me now is Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey.
Mr. Mayor, thank you so much for being in THE ARENA. I really appreciate your time today.
And I'd like to start by just asking what you would say back to President Trump. President Trump said in an interview that a softer touch is required.
What do you say to President Trump?
MAYOR JACOB FREY (D), MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: He's right that a softer touch has been required. The drawdown of both federal agents, as well as the implementation of body cameras, is obviously a step in the right direction.
[16:05:08]
That being said, the continued presence of 2,000 federal agents in a city that only has 600 police officers is still not de-escalation. So, we have been very clear that operation metro surge needs to end the restoration of peace of safety, the rejuvenation of small local businesses throughout our city depends on one main thing, which is for ICE to leave. And so, that continues to be our position.
HUNT: Sir, how would you characterize. You say it's not a de- escalation. What is it? What does it mean that 700 of these agents are leaving?
FREY: Well, obviously, there is a de-escalatory element. If you are decreasing the number of agents that are on the street, that being said, when you have 2,000 agents that are still here approximately 20 times that which we had prior to operation metro surge, that relatively speaking, no, is not a de-escalation.
And so, we need to understand where we have been and then where we were just a couple of months ago. You know, look, we've had ICE operate in our city for decades. We've had ICE operate in our city even during a Trump administration.
And this is not about ICE doing normal ICE stuff. The objection is to ICE pulling people off the street indiscriminately. It's these roving bands that were walking through Minneapolis and targeting both Latino and Somali people without regard for whether any crime had been committed at all. The frustration, of course, comes in the way and the how people in our city have been treated. I think, you know, you've got tens of thousands of people in Minneapolis that are standing up and speaking out and delivering food to those that would be terrified to go outside and stand and watch at a daycare, and they're doing it for the right reasons. They're doing it because they care about their neighbors. And that is a beautiful Minneapolis sentiment.
HUNT: Sir, of course, this coming from Tom Homan, the border czar who was sent in to replace the border patrol head who had been in Minneapolis. You've now had a number of meetings with Homan behind closed doors.
Do you trust Tom Homan?
FREY: The meetings that we've had with Border Czar Homan, the meeting that we had with Trump was a positive meeting. It was affable. It was collegial. And at the same time, we continue to have very clear asks. Those asks are, end Operation Metro Surge.
You know, obviously they have talked about wanting to improve safety in a number of cities throughout the country. And if this is about safety, hey, you know what? We're on board to catch offenders of violent crime. We've worked extensively with a number of different federal agencies, from the DEA to the ATF to the FBI and the U.S. attorney's office, to successfully drive down crime in Minneapolis, to where, you know, we're seeing record lows in some areas right now. And we have been for quite some time.
But again, that is not what this has been about over this last month and a half. What this has been about is not about safety. It's not about even immigration. This has been about creating some sort of political narrative and seeking political retribution on people that don't agree with the president
HUNT: Sir, one of the policy pieces that conservatives keep returning to that has become a flashpoint is the jails, state and local jails. And whether or not they will be required to follow ICE detainers, right, to turn people over to ICE when they are released. Why don't you want to do that?
FREY: Well, we don't have any jails under our authority in Minneapolis. And so that's not even a question that is posed to us. Well, the question is posed to us --
HUNT: Well, Hennepin County has jails, correct?
FREY: Correct, correct. Hennepin County has jails.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: Would you urge -- is there a reason why you would urge them not to follow these detainers?
FREY: I don't know all of the logistics associated with the Hennepin County jail. What I do know is that both at the state level and corrections and also at the county level, we have worked pretty extensively with federal agents from a number of different departments to make sure that violent offenders have been apprehended.
[16:10:02]
You know, there are a number of pretty technical logistics as to how those offenders are handled and where they are ultimately sent. But, you know, look, in Minneapolis, we got to make sure that due process is achieved. We got to make sure that somebody isn't held accountable for a crime that they didn't commit.
But where they've committed crimes -- yeah, of course, you investigate, you prosecute, you charge, you arrest. And then yeah, ICE they have, the role that they've been delegated through Congress as well. But that is not what we're talking about here.
Again, what we have seen are all sorts of constitutional violations that have been carried out on our street. It's been largely indiscriminate pickups. And that is not okay in Minneapolis. That's not okay in any city in the entire country.
And by the way, what we're also seeing, and this needs to be made clear is coercion. It is compelling local officials to change their policies and their practices to meet an overarching national or federal agenda. You know, saying, hey, hand over the voting rules or else were going to continue this Operation Metro Surge that is wreaking havoc on your city.
You can't --
HUNT: I mean, look, I take your point about the voting rolls for sure, but it is worth noting that during the Obama years, the Hennepin County jail actually had a policy where they let an ICE agent keep an office there and allowed them to talk to immigrants. So, the policy has clearly been under a Democratic president. What now? The Trump administration is asking for?
I mean, big picture. Do you think it's good policy for the jails to follow an ICE detainer and hand someone over if they've committed a crime? And again, this only happens after they've served their time you know, to, for, for whatever crime they may have committed against the people of Minnesota.
FREY: I mean, look, you're asking all the right questions here. And while I don't have full expertise in how the operations at the jail are conducted, again, that's not our jurisdiction. What I would say is that there are mechanisms to do this lawfully, you know, the federal, the federal government could seek some form of federal warrant. That warrant could run part and parcel with the warrant that already
exists at the state level. And if they were to do that, there would be a legal mechanism for detention after bail has been posted. And so, again, we're getting pretty technical here. But what we can't have from a legal perspective is a second detention after the obligations under the first detention have been met.
HUNT: Okay. Fair enough. I understand that we've gotten down to the weeds. I want to move on.
But again, I think we're talking about people who've been convicted of crimes, who've served their sentence and who ICE says they want to detain and then deport.
But, sir, I want to play for you something that our vice president --
(CROSSTALK)
FREY: Look, these are convictions.
HUNT: Okay, let's move on. I want to play for you something that the vice president said in an interview today with "The Daily Mail". He was asked whether or not he planned to apologize to the family of Alex Pretti, who was, of course, shot on the street by federal agents.
I want to show you what the vice president said and then get your reaction. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERVIEWER: Have you apologized or do you plan to apologize to the family of Alex Pretti?
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For what?
INTERVIEWER : For, you know, labeling him an assassin with ill intent?
VANCE: Well, again, I just described to you what I said about Alex Pretti, which is that he's a guy who showed up with ill intent to an ICE protest.
INTERVIEWER: But if it is determined --
VANCE: He's the guy --
INTERVIEWER: If it's determined that his civil rights were violated by this FBI investigation, will you apologize to that?
VANCE: So, if this hypothetical leads to that hypothetical leads to another --
INTERVIEWER: It's a real case --
VANCE: --if I do a thing, and again, like I said, we're going to let the investigation determine. We're going to let the actual law come to the surface and figure out what happened. (END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Mr. Mayor, does Alex Pretti and his family deserve an apology from the vice president of the United States?
FREY: I apologize to the family of Alex Pretti because he did not deserve to be killed. So, obviously, I -- we all dictate our own conduct. We determine what we decide to do. And, you know, he should not have been killed.
And so, I am sorry to the family of Alex Pretti because that should not have happened at the hands of a government.
HUNT: And what about the labeling of him as an assassin? That's what some in the administration did. Does he deserve an apology for that?
FREY: Yeah. Of course. I mean, this was one of my biggest frustrations from the very first moments following the killing of Renee Ggood. You know, before I went out there to do that very first press conference. I learned that, you know, head officials from the federal government were saying that the ICE agent was acting purely in self-defense, and, I don't know, an hour or two later, Renee Good herself was labeled as a domestic terrorist.
That does not signal a full and fair investigation. That does not signal that there is a lack of conclusion being jumped to prior to the completion of a neutral investigation. Not to mention it runs counter to what I think we're all seeing with our own two eyes.
And so, this is an instance where, yeah, you can believe what you're seeing. And at the same time, we need a fair investigation to be carried out. And we have called for that investigation to be carried out by the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension at the state level.
HUNT: And, sir, before I let you go, kind of big picture looking at your own career, obviously a major moment in the national spotlight for, of course, very difficult and tragic reasons. But you took a lot of heat from the left in your party for how you handled what happened on the streets of Minneapolis in 2020. It seemed to age well with voters.
Obviously, you're sitting here today. You were reelected. Now there are a lot of progressives who are praising the way you're taking on the Trump administration.
How would you say that you approach these incredibly thorny, difficult problems? And how do you explain how, especially the left of your party has felt about you?
FREY: Look, I won't put words in anybody else's mouth as to how someone has felt, either positively or negatively about me. And certainly, I've experienced both over the years. Look, every morning I get up and I tell myself, I'm going to tell the truth. I'm going to try to do the right thing, which is often up for debate. And I'm going to work my tail off and do my very best. And in 2020, yeah, at times that meant telling one segment of the
party what they didn't want to hear, and that I know I was not going to defund and abolish the police. And obviously now, it involves trying to defend the endurance of our republic and stand up against an administration that is involved in political retribution and conduct that hurts the underpinnings of our democracy.
And certainly, I get people coming at me from maybe the opposite side on that one. But you try to do the right thing. You do your best. And, you know, you sleep soundly at night if you do those things.
HUNT: All right. Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey, thanks very much for your time, sir. I hope you come back.
FREY: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, our panel will be here to react to our interview with the mayor and those new comments from the president about his immigration policy.
Plus, new details coming in on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, including what officials are now saying about purported ransom notes
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It may or may not be of value, but it is still considered evidence. It is still considered a lead. Those particular things need to be verified and determined if it's authentic or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:22:50]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOMAN: We're not surrendering the president's mission on a mass deportation operation. If you're in the country legally, if we find you, we'll deport you. But this is about targeted enforcement operation, and that's what we're going to be doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. More now on the breaking news. That's 700 law enforcement personnel will be withdrawn from Minnesota effective immediately.
As you just told me, the Minneapolis mayor, Jacob Frey, says the continued presence of 2,000 federal agents is still not de-escalation and that the operation needs to end.
My panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN political analyst, investigative reporter for "The New York Times", David Fahrenthold; CNN contributor, host of "The On" and "Pivot" podcast, Kara Swisher; CNN political commentator, former DOJ official Xochitl Hinojosa; and CNN senior political commentator, former Trump campaign adviser David Urban.
Thank you all very much for being here.
Kara Swisher, big picture, what was your reaction to how Jacob Frey is handling this? I mean, he clearly is having a strong moment in the national spotlight, threading a difficult needle.
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, he is. I just interviewed him a couple weeks ago about this, about what happened just before Alex Pretti was killed. I think he's handling it pretty well. I think he's, you know, he's very smooth, obviously, as you can see from his appearance.
At the same time, I think he's a mayor of a city that that feels like it's under siege. And he has to react for the citizens of Minnesota -- Minneapolis.
HUNT: Yeah. David?
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. Listen, he did a great job. My old boss used to say, he provided great answers to completely different questions in the past.
SWISHER: Because you've never seen that.
URBAN: He's like, you know, you'd ask him a tough question like, you know, in case you're answering all the right questions, but I'm not going to -- I'm not going to give you an answer to --
HUNT: Good advice from the political consultant.
URBAN: So, you did a great job. Listen, he knows why. There's a difference between why he cooperated in the Obama administration and not cooperating now. Right? It's a D and an R thing, right?
So he's very slick, as Kara said. He's very, very polished. But he knows what he's doing. He can -- he can provide answers to those things. And they make a choice, whether they're sanctuary city or not, a sanctuary city.
You know, the president called them. Tom Homan's there. They're talking about targeted enforcement operations, right? To me, that sounds like we're dialing it back. We've learned a lesson.
The president looks at the polling 80-20. He hates the -- he wants to be on the 80 side, not on the 20 side. So he said we could do things softer.
By all accounts, you know, they've learned a lot here. And the mayor should be a little bit like look, we got a W, we're -- the White House is working with us. We're going to deescalate as well.
HUNT: Were you surprised the president was willing to say that a softer touch was required?
URBAN: Absolutely. Absolutely was. I think that, again, I think the president recognizes that Americans -- if you look at the polling, Americans still overwhelmingly support the agenda of deporting the bad hombres, get rid of the bad guys. Right? Overwhelmingly.
The way it was done, if you look at the polling, terrible numbers, right? So, the president recognizes through the polling, I mean, this is how he lives, right, as a politician, the numbers on that suck for him. And so, they realize they've got to adjust it. And that's what this recalibration is.
I think Tom Homan, they're making it more professional. You heard that, targeted enforcement operations. That means something completely different than you saw what was happening in Minnesota before.
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, but I'm not sure that you're seeing targeted enforcement operations already. I mean, they're still -- in Texas, there are people who are trying to figure out whether there are U.S. citizens that are being sent there, that are detained, and how do they get them back to the states that they came from, because he still is detaining U.S. citizens. He's still outside of schools.
There -- ICE is still outside of churches. And now, Steve Bannon just recently said that he would like to see ICE outside of polling locations. And so, I think the big debate that you're going to see in congress right now is like, what are the steps in the reforms that need to be taken, whether or not Republicans are going to agree to those will be something else. But I think that a place to watch here is ICE outside of polling locations.
We are heading into a number of elections and that's quite scary if you have ICE outside of polling locations.
DAVID FAHRENTHOLD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: We'll step back for a second. Just think about the difference between Trump the first year of this administration and the second year. The first year, there was so much focus on targeting one person at a time.
Let's bring the whole force of the federal government on one law firm, one university, one set of people. And that worked. It worked so well that so many people bent the knee immediately.
What's happening in Minnesota shows the limits of trying to apply that to a city, right? They're going to try to make a whole city bow down. When they didn't, they put more people in there. What you're seeing is the limits of that approach.
And Trump pulling back from that and going, okay, brute force isn't going to work. Intimidation isn't going to work in the same way with a group like that. And I think they're starting to be scared. That is spreading to other parts of the country, and people are not as frightened of them as they were.
SWISHER: You also can't just say, oopsie, did the killing of two American citizens, and you just can't do that and act like, oh, political. He needs to go back on it. I mean, I think -- I think one of the things that Frey said very
clearly, there's 600 police officers and 3,000 troops from ICE. That's a very different situation. And by the way, that didn't happen during Obama. There weren't 3,000 troops surged in.
So, there is a difference. And I'm sure, you know, Frey is an actually interesting person because when there was the defund the police, he resisted and still won. So, he certainly has shown himself to be someone who is reasonable and can be worked with, right? You can't put point a finger at him in that way.
URBAN: No, no, no, I'm not saying that. What I would say, though, is that in this instance, like take the win. He should -- he should -- the president saying nice things about him, he should say, listen, we're working together with the administration. We want to deescalate things. Right?
He has a -- he has an opportunity and an obligation on his end to try to turn it down as well, I think a bit. And I think he could.
HINOJOSA: Well, yeah. And on the Democratic side, there was an absence of leadership in Minneapolis. I think a lot of people on the ground felt that Governor Walz should have been more aggressive at the start, more like a Governor Pritzker or Governor Newsom whenever their cities were overrun and ICE was sent in. And there wasn't leadership there.
And Mayor Frey rose to the moment, he stood up to the administration. I think people really respect that.
HUNT: Kara Swisher, the sort of tech community which you spent so much time with --
SWISHER: Yes.
HUNT: -- and have, have for so many years, you know, very much about.
SWISHER: Yes.
HUNT: How about we put it that way? They have kind of been wrapped up in the sort of nationwide protests against what we have been seeing going on in Minneapolis, whether it's boycotts or other things. Why is that? And has have they responded to it.
(CROSSTALK)
SWISHER: Wrapped up in helping? No, no, as in like wrapped up surveillance? Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: Right from a --
SWISHER: Well, they deserve it. They deserve it because I think a lot of people feel tech has created a polarized situation and they haven't taken responsibility for their platforms the way other media companies like this one or any others had to. That's one.
Two, a lot of their tools are being used for surveillance. A little creepy. We don't live in China. We live here in the United States. And the uses of surveillance are really disturbing.
A third thing is they're living high on the hog. When you rent Venice for your wedding, as Jeff Bezos did, that doesn't look great when people are troubled and are suffering. And when you don't respond to stuff like that, as they did before on very sensible things, you look -- you look like a quisling, I think, you know?
HUNT: Well, and let's bring it back to, to, of course, the two people that were shot and killed by federal agents, Renee Good, Alex Pretti.
We heard from Renee Good's brother yesterday on Capitol Hill, and it was a pretty emotional day of testimony.
[16:30:00]
I want to play a little bit of what he had to say. We'll talk about it either side. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUKE GANGER, RENEE GOOD'S BROTHER: The completely surreal scenes taking place on the streets of Minneapolis are beyond explanation. This is not just a bad day or a rough week or isolated incidents. These encounters with federal agents are changing the community and changing many lives, including ours, forever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: I mean, Kara, this speaks to the point you were just making that -- I mean, these events are impossible to ignore.
SWISHER: No, absolutely. And Minneapolis is such a -- it's a real community place if you go there. And what's really interesting, is it happening against tech is now you're starting to see communities form, people reaching out to each other.
Now they're using tech. Alex Pretti did that. The last moment of his life was recording something with his cell phone, invented by Silicon Valley.
But what's happening is there's sort of a shift toward the analog in that city, which I think is very powerful, much more so than people in politics realize.
URBAN: Look, I think there's going to have to our country still needs to grapple with this. What are we going to do on immigration writ large, right? So, we have many people here in society, right, in our society, that have been paying taxes, been a part of our society forever, that many of their neighbors don't want to see him go. But at the same time, we have people break the law to get here.
And so, we need to grapple with comprehensive immigration reform, real reform that makes a determination. Do we issue guest worker visas? Do we -- how do we get to a place in America? Because we're not going to deport everybody, right?
And so this, this kind of whack a mole policy on were going to deport some. We're going to -- look, Barack Obama did his best to deport as many as he could. And he only got, you know, five million people. We've got another 15 million people embedded in our nation that, by all accounts, aren't going anywhere.
HUNT: We've been trying to do it for the entirety of the two decades that I've been in this town, and --
URBAN: We're going to have to figure it out as -- we're going to have to figure out.
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: We're going to have to figure it out as a country, because it's going to divide our country forever.
HUNT: You're right.
All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, what police are saying today about possible ransom notes in the search for Nancy Guthrie and what were now learning about her pacemaker and how it fits into the timeline of her disappearance.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:36:41]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF CHRIS NANOS, PIMA COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: You've taken her away from her home, her safest environment, and you've placed her at great jeopardy without giving her the meds that are critical to her. Again, like I say, could be fatal if she doesn't get those meds. So, yes, I believe she's -- I believe not only has she been, she's being harmed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: It's now been more than 72 hours since Nancy Guthrie was reported missing. And right now, every minute, every second is critical. At least three news outlets, including two CNN affiliates, say that they've received possible ransom notes. Chillingly, those notes are said to describe specific evidence from inside the home where authorities believe Guthrie was abducted.
The Pima County sheriff has so far declined to say whether the details match the crime scene, but he did confirm that he shared the purported ransom note with her daughter, "Today Show" host Savannah Guthrie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERVIEWER: Is there anything in that note that seems credible at this moment that you are giving weight to?
NANOS: The entire note, that's what I would --
INTERVIEWER: Take the entire note?
NANOS: When the note comes to us, it's like any piece of evidence. You give it to us, you give us a lead. We're going to look at every aspect of that lead and work it as a lead.
INTERVIEWER: So, you're not dismissing this note at this point. It is potentially credible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. CNN's security correspondent Josh Campbell joins us now.
So, Josh, walk us through how authorities handle situations like these with ransom notes.
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, the sheriff there said they're working to determine the credibility. And they want anyone with information to provide that. They're going to try to determine whether this could actually be from someone who had the means and capability and intent to actually you know, be involved in an abduction like this.
I will tell you, in these types of cases, a note of caution is always warranted. You know, police are flooded with tips. Some of them turn out to be credible. Some of them turn out to be not related. Some turn out to be simply disinformation by people who will try to, you know, kind of gum up these investigations.
But nevertheless, they're running it to ground. I can tell you that if it does, they determine this is credible or if they're able to get some type of other ransom. You know, having worked these kidnapping investigations, that is not something that they will then be detailing step by step because if there is an actual open line with an abductor that is treated so sensitively as authorities work to that final resolution to try to get her back.
We're also learning one other new detail that is a bit of a timeline. We're learning that the pacemaker that Nancy Guthrie had at last synced up with her phone at 2:00 a.m. on Sunday, which is important because there was this 12-plus hour window between the last time she was seen and when she was actually reported missing. Authorities were working to determine when may she -- might she have been taken. This could prove a good data point there, because we know her cell phone was left behind at the home.
If that was a moment of separation when she was then taken away again, that just kind of gives authorities additional information. But they're working a lot of leads behind the scenes right now, Kasie, as they continue to appeal to the public for tips.
HUNT: All right. Josh Campbell, thank you very much for that report. I want to bring in now, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence
analyst John Miller, and former FBI agent Bryanna Fox. She's also a professor of criminology.
Thank you both for being here.
John, I want to start with you and just, you know, the way that you think about these things, I think always helps us clarify and kind of look for what may happen next.
[16:40:02]
How do you interpret the sheriff's comments around these notes, what may or may not be in them, and what kind of credence they're giving to it?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, I think the sheriff is being prudent, which is we take every lead seriously. So, whether they think these notes are of high credibility or low credibility, they're accounting for the fact that, you know, as they investigate it, that could change.
And when you have a note that claims to be a ransom note that's making a demand, there's two directions you're going to focus on here. One is, what if it's from an abductor who has Nancy and needs to be communicated with, how do you get back to them other than just paying the money?
The second thing is, if it is not the abductor, that's not a free pass. That's still an extortion, and that is somebody that you're going to want to try and track down and catch and arrest for trying to shake the family down, you know, for money at this difficult time with a ransom demand.
So, either way, they need to know, are these letters that went to these media places coming from the same place? Are they identical? Are they coming from different places? Are they different? And who are the people behind them?
HUNT: Bryanna, as a professor of criminology -- I mean, what would you point us to here and what do you think they're not saying.
BRYANNA FOX, PH.D, FORMER FBI AGENT: Yeah, that's a great question. I think the -- I mean, all of the commentary about why the police keep their cards so close to their vest oftentimes, I mean, as we said, one thing in that ransom note could be either legitimate because only the person who sent it, who's the person who was inside that home would know about it. If that's widely reported on the media, we lose that ability to sort of siphon out, you know, the people that are being extortionists or the people that are the real captors.
Second, we want to make sure that obviously anything that's being reported to the family and to the public is accurate. And that takes, you know, sometimes double and triple checking, even if we think we have a good lead. HUNT: John, 72 hours out in a case like this, I what does that mean?
I mean, how much longer do these -- could this stretch out while still being able to hold out hope for finding her alive?
FOX: Well, in the Los Angeles Police Department and the New York Police Department, I was involved in multiple kidnap investigations. And this is not out of the realm of the normal pace of things. You have someone who may be taken from the home. We don't know if that person drove ten miles to a place where he is or she is holding or keeping them, or whether they drove 100 miles or 200 miles.
Remember the Elizabeth Smart case. You know, she was kidnapped from her home in Salt Lake City, but ended up at one point in San Diego and then traveling back. So, it could be the time it took for an abductor to -- who may have had a -- an intricate plan to cover the distance from where they were going to do the abduction, to where they were going to hold the person. Or it could be that they are waiting for the right portal or the right way to communicate.
HUNT: All right. John Miller, Bryanna Fox, thank you both very much for your insights. Really appreciate your time today.
And we should note that anyone with information is encouraged to contact the Pima County Sheriff's Department. That number is on your screen, 520-351-4900. The FBI's tip line is 1-800-CALL-FBI.
All right. Ahead here in THE ARENA, new comments from Microsoft co- founder Bill Gates on why he's named in the latest release of the Epstein files and what his former wife is saying about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELINDA FRENCH GATES, BILL GATES'EX-WIFE: Whatever questions remain there of what I don't -- can't even begin to know all of it. Those questions are for those people and for even my ex-husband. They need to answer to those things, not me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[16:48:24]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL GATES, MICROSOFT COFOUNDER: That email was never sent. The email is, you know, false. So I don't know what his thinking was there. Just reminds me, in every minute I spent with him, I regret and I apologize that I did that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates today denying claims made in the latest release of the Epstein files, specifically around some 2013 draft messages that were found in Epstein's email. It's not clear who wrote them, but they mentioned feelings of betrayal toward Bill Gates, business deals and a suggestion of problems in Gates's marriage to his then wife, Melinda. There's also a mention of Gates having concerns about a sexually transmitted disease.
Gates has never been accused of wrongdoing related to Epstein, and in more of that interview today that you just heard, Gates says he had hoped Epstein could help solicit donations for his global health philanthropy and adds that he was, quote, "foolish to spend time with him," end quote.
Melinda French Gates, who divorced Bill Gates in 2021, saying this last night about her ex-husband.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. GATES: No girl should ever be put in the situation that they were put in by Epstein, and whatever was going on with all of the various people around him. For me, it's personally hard. Whenever those details come up, right? Because brings back memories of some very, very painful times in my marriage. But I have moved on from that.
Whatever questions remain there of what I don't -- can't even begin to know all of it.
[16:50:01]
Those questions are for those people and for even my ex-husband. They need to answer to those things. Not me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Kara Swisher, there's a lot here.
SWISHER: I don't know what to say. I mean, look, Bill Gates was foolish. That's an understatement. The judgment is below -- is the lowest you can get in hanging out with someone like that. Everyone knew what Epstein was at the time.
I can tell you. He was floating around technology like you couldn't believe. He'd show up at TED. He'd show up at various things, and. But everyone did know who he was. They just dismissed it in that during that time period.
In the case of Melinda Gates, I don't know why she has to put up with this for so long and have to answer this question. They have kids together. She has had to endure a lot of terrible things, and she continually gets asked about it.
And I get it. And she did answer pretty well. But it is a question for Bill Gates. And --
HUNT: She had a lot of grace.
SWISHER: She had a lot of grace. She had a lot of grace. But here was, you know, this led to the end of her marriage 100 percent, this kind of behavior. And so, who knows what happens. And again, Epstein was such an oily
figure who knows what was true or not. What this guy said, he always he was a gossip and everything else. And so -- a sort of a heinous gossip in that regard.
But it's a bad look. And by the way, it's a bad look for all of technology. They're all in there. They all either went to the island or they hung out with them, or they did these.
They used to do all these conferences that they all got together and stuff. It was all -- it was all bad.
HUNT: Kara, why did they do it?
SWISHER: You know, if I -- not everybody is the same. But I think they were coming up in the world. They were getting a lot of attention. And so, they wanted to be -- people in technology want to be more than that. Oh, we're all so smart and we're intellectual. And he was part of that, you know, of funding all those people.
And so, I don't know, you know? Their parents didn't hug them enough as children. I don't know what happened to them, but it was sort of this chasing, chasing what they thought was glamorous, which was heinous, actually.
URBAN: You know, some of the stuff. So the Bill Gates stuff laughable. He's trying to raise money. I think it's a joke. The big -- the big thing that these this document dump raises me. There's a lot of, you know, these side stories.
But the underlying issue that I still and I'll pound on this until the end of the day, our colleague Elie Honig brought it up the other day, is that what is missing here is the deliberative documents that are required to be turned over from the Department of Justice, internal deliberative memos that Alex Acosta and his colleagues had on the non- prosecution of Jeffrey Epstein.
HUNT: The sweetheart deal.
URBAN: The sweetheart deal. There are -- there are names redacted, coconspirators. Ms. Maxwell's one of them, presumably. And then there are, I think, two or three others that are still redacted. And those memos which are required under this law to be turned over, have not been turned over yet.
And so to me, that is -- that's the -- that's the $64,000 question, not whether Bill Gates, who went there, I could care less. Why was this man let off the hook by the Department of Justice, by career prosecutors, by Alex Acosta? That -- why are we having these people come to the Hill? That's -- if we find out that, that's the answer.
SWISHER: Critically, there's levels of people here, the criminally, the people who are criminally liable, who did terrible things. Then there's a group of people that had incredibly bad judgment and that goes up and down -- worse, medium, just stupid. You still can focus on those people. URBAN: No, no, I'm not saying that.
SWISHER: The criminals are the ones we should get, speaking --
URBAN: I'm just saying that the real issue behind all these documents in this dump, we can go. We can look at more people and who's there, who's not in, who should be ashamed. If we want to understand what's going on and why -- I mean, why was Jeffrey Epstein let off the hook? We have -- the law requires these memos to be turned over.
These deliberative internal documents, department of justice, where people go back and forth and discuss this. Those have not been produced yet. And the Congress needs to do their job and demand those.
HINOJOSA: Well, Congress should be asking for them in a SCIF, if they are --
URBAN: Take them in a SCIF or whatever.
HINOJOSA: Whatever they should be -- .
URBAN: But they should -- they should have it. Where are you got to do it? There needs to be a review.
SWISHER: There is a law. And so, the Justice Department should be doing that.
URBAN: That's what -- this is what I'm saying here. Until the American public hears about that, or finds out, there's no amount of who's there, what parlor game, there are real people who are affected here. And Americans deserve an answer.
FAHRENTHOLD: I just think about like 10 or 15 years ago we believed our lives. The next few years are going to be defined by billionaires. The power of tech billionaires.
There were all these people who had gathered so much power to themselves, and I think we were right, but not in the way we expected that so much has been defined by the sort of personal failings of these billionaires, people who let their midlife crisis dictate the way they run their company, the people who let their own insecurities change the way they ran their big technology companies.
And we see sort of inside the lives of these folks now and think maybe we were a little bit misplaced in sort of putting our hope in these folks.
SWISHER: I didn't put my hope in them. But one of the things that I will say is Melinda Gates was so graceful there. And by the way, other -- let me tell you, during that time, a lot of those tech people went and the only people who ever said things to me were the often the wives of those people. Now the ex-wives.
[16:55:00]
But I had someone say to me, a wife of a very prominent technologist, they had gone to the island. She landed, looked around and said, we need to leave here. Something terrible is going on here. Why are we here?
And the husband was like, why? What's wrong? Like that kind of --
URBAN: Again, we should know why the Department of Justice did not prosecute these people.
SWISHER: Yes, yes.
HUNT: Yeah. We absolutely do need the answer to that.
All right. We'll be right back.
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HUNT: All right. Thanks very much to my panel for being here today. Really appreciate all of you.
Thanks to you at home for watching as well. We really appreciate you.
Don't go anywhere, though, because Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".
Hi, Jake.
