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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Trump Fires Attorney General Pam Bondi; Trump Signals U.S. Will Intensify Strikes On Iran, But Offers Few Details On Strategy For Exiting The War; Oil Prices Jump After Trump's Iran Speech Fails To Calm Jitters. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired April 02, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:01]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Colonel Terry Virts, thanks so much for the time. Appreciate you.
COL. TERRY VIRTS (RET.), FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: Thanks for having me on.
SANCHEZ: Of course.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Breaking news, President Donald Trump has fired Attorney General Pam Bondi.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. Kasie Hunt is off. I'm Pamela Brown.
And as we come on the air, Pam Bondi is out as attorney general, the second firing of a Trump cabinet official in less than a month. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, now the acting A.G.
In a social media post this afternoon, President Trump writes, quote, "We love Pam and she will be transitioning to a much needed and important new job in the private sector," end quote.
In her own statement, Bondi says she is grateful to the president and describes her tenure as, quote, "easily the most consequential first year of the Department of Justice in American history," end quote.
Well, sources tell CNN that President Trump has grown frustrated with Bondi on multiple fronts. For one, he believes that she's not investigating or prosecuting enough of his perceived political enemies. But our sources also say the president is especially disappointed in Bondi's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS HOST: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients? Will that really happen?
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's sitting on my desk right now to review.
You're grilling me on President Trump and some photograph with Epstein? Come on.
Sifting through evidence that had been sitting at the FBI with the Biden administration for four long years.
None of them ask Merrick Garland over the last four years, one word about Jeffrey Epstein. How ironic is that? You know why? Because Donald Trump -- the Dow, the Dow right now is over -- the Dow is over 50,000.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): I told you about that, Attorney General, before you started.
BONDI: Don't tell me.
RASKIN: Oh, I didn't tell you because we saw what you did in the Senate.
BONDI: Washed-up loser lawyer, not even a lawyer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. So, let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA.
My panel is here, along with CNN's senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes.
Kristen, let's start with you. I know you've been talking to White House sources. What are they saying about Bondi's firing?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, I do want to point to the statement that you just read, particularly this part about the private sector, because this is the first time we have seen President Trump just not give a soft landing to somebody that he is ousting from his cabinet. We saw Kristi Noem got this job as a special envoy, and we had heard that in this conversation that Pam Bondi had with President Trump last night, that was described by one source as a tough conversation that President Trump had floated other jobs for her, that he had said maybe a potential judgeship or a job within the administration. Clearly, he did not land on that, instead saying she's going off into the private sector.
Now in that conversation, Pam Bondi was allegedly told that she would likely be replaced and it was less than 24 hours later that she was fired. The deputy attorney general, Tom Blanche, will fill in, in the interim. He'll be the acting attorney general. But that won't really happen for another month. Pam Bondi herself posting that she would be in this job helping with the transition, thanking President Trump.
This is a huge turnover and it comes at a time where we have to look back at the last year, President Trump and Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, did not want a lot of turnover in the cabinet. Now, just in the last month, we've had two high profile positions ousted by President Trump.
Clearly, we are entering a new phase of President Trump's tenure, one where they don't care so much about the narrative around these kind of firings. Remember the reason they didn't want to see this turnover was because the first term of President Trump seemed like a revolving door where no one was in control. Clearly, they don't feel that way anymore.
BROWN: That is very true.
Kristen Holmes, thanks so much.
All right. So, let's get back to our panel here in THE ARENA. CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams; CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg; Democratic strategist and former senior advisor for the Harris and Biden presidential campaigns, Adrienne Elrod; and senior advisor for the Trump 2024 campaign, Bryan Lanza.
We are also joined by CNN's senior law enforcement analyst and former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe.
All right. Andrew, so, tell me how you're looking at this? Big picture, what does this mean for the future of DOJ?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yeah. Well, that's -- that's really the most important question here, right? Because we know that Pam Bondi presided over essentially the gutting of the Department of Justice, firings of dozens upon dozens of attorneys. Many others quit because of objections to the directions that their work was being pushed.
She basically gave up the notion that the department should be committed to the rule of law and should be independent of the White House completely sold out. One of the most important tenants of the Department of Justice. And ironically, it seems that she has been fired for not doing that effectively enough, for not making the department enough, enough of an effective tool for the president and his campaign of retribution and politically driven investigations.
[16:05:15]
So, I think it says a lot about what it takes to survive in that kind of game of thrones atmosphere around President Donald Trump, but also, we should be wary that the next person who comes in is probably going to be committed to that, that same agenda and an even more ferocious way.
BROWN: And we don't know who that next person will be yet. For now, Todd Blanche will be stepping in as the acting attorney general. And of course, he right now is the deputy attorney general.
One source I spoke with today told me that this was death by a thousand cuts for Bondi. What do you see as the final nail in the coffin?
MCCABE: Yeah. Well, you know, obviously the boggling of the Epstein files release was, really, I think kind of set these -- set this play in motion. Now that's been a slow burn for months and months and months. I actually think that the bigger factor here was her department's inability to deliver on these blatantly politically motivated investigations, things like the investigation of Jim Comey, Letitia James, Adam Schiff, the list goes on and on.
You know, she hasn't been able to deliver what the president would define as success, which is an indictment for someone who he doesn't like. Now, I think it's important to point out that the problems that she and her department have run across in that effort is that there are no cases, there's no actual legitimate cases in against these people.
So, but that's not a consideration in this White House. It was, it is not a consideration has not been a consideration under Pam Bondi's Department of Justice. And I doubt it will be in the next one.
BROWN: Yeah. I'm wondering how you're looking at it. You know, you mentioned whoever is going to be nominated next as Trump's attorney general will be under the same kind of pressure, maybe even more what do you think they should be taken away from this, whoever that might be.
MCCABE: It's a really strong message that Trump is sending not only to the next attorney general, but really to anyone at that cabinet level. And I mean, to the message that, you know, from my perspective is if you think that you're going to be able to take one of these positions and you're going to be able to execute your duties faithfully according to your own understanding of the law and your own morality and ethics. You are sorely misled. The only -- the only standard here among people at that level is to satisfy the presidents whims, whatever those might be for the Department of Justice, is that the teeth are removed essentially from federal prosecutors. And what remains is only an effort to targeting political enemies.
That path ends for everybody in the same basic way that people will find themselves ultimately embarrassed, you know, degraded and, and fired. So, you know, it's -- it really makes you wonder what's going through the minds of the person who's volunteering or raising their hand to step into that job next. It's a tough gig and working for that guy can be a very tough thing.
BROWN: All right, Andrew McCabe, stand by. We're going to bring in the panel here.
Bryan, I want to start with you on this and just go back to the beginning, shall we, and replay that moment when Pam Bondi went on Fox News and it was a pivotal moment.
She probably at that time, you know, never realized that this would be replayed so many hundreds of times. But let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS HOST: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients? Will that really happen?
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Was she doomed from that very moment? Back in February 2025?
BRYAN LANZA, SENIOR ADVISOR FOR THE TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: It certainly appears so. I mean, you gave the media the impression, you gave Trump voters the impression that there was a list ready to be released, and it was all dependent on her. And then when she came out months later, said nothing, you know, that basically sealed her fate.
BROWN: Well -- and, Susie Wiles, the White House chief of staff, kind of indicated that in this, as we all recall in that "Vanity Fair" article last year where she said Bondi whiffed when it came to the Epstein files.
Jonah, how are you looking at this?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, in her statement, Pam Bondi says she's honored to serve in the most consequential first year for the Justice Department ever. And, you know, I like the phrasing of that because even her harshest critics can agree, right? It's sort of like that was the most consequential boat launch in the history of the world, talking about the Titanic. I mean, it was consequential, to be sure.
And look, I mean, I think this is one of the problems that I think Trump gets into with a lot, not all of his cabinet picks, but when you have the first criteria being blind loyalty, you have to go down several names on the list of qualified people before you find someone willing to sort of suspend their ethics and their integrity for the sake of the boss.
And so, he gets some quality people who then don't display particular expertise or quality, and they come across as not the best, which is what Trump wants. And so, then he gets embarrassed by these people and he can't hire the people that he would love to have a Bill Barr, someone with that kind of reputation to do the hatchet work that he wants. But those kinds of people will not do that kind of work.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Let me add to that, just a point there. President Trump has been president for just over five years between, you know, the first time around and this time. Ten people have served either as attorney general or acting attorney general. Maybe the problem is not the people who are serving in the role, but the of the United States and the demands that he's putting on these folks, including, you know, some of the things that Andy laid out right there, which is that, number one, placing such a premium on going after his opponents. And number two, this, you know, gutting the Department of Justice and so on. And so, yes, there's a lot to be frustrated with Pam Bondi about in
terms of her competence, her handling of Epstein and so on. But really, this goes to the top and we should not lose sight of that.
BROWN: Just -- I mean, you know, she had the credentials.
WILLIAMS: Yes, yes, oh, I know.
BROWN: Let's not forget Matt Gaetz was the first pick, right? And then that fell through. And when Pam Bondi was picked by Trump, lawyers like yourself are saying, well, she has the --
WILLIAMS: Absolute -- and I stand by that and still do. She was an elected official who had served as a prosecutor in a major jurisdiction in a major state, having served as Hillsborough County, Florida, or Tampa, Florida. So, of all the human beings in the United States, this was perhaps a person who could have distanced herself from the president and run a prosecutorial department in an effective law enforcement first way. But she, like so many others before her, chose to follow the president of the United States down this awful road of disrespect for the rule of law. And here we are again.
And the next person is probably going to do the same thing, as long as this president keeps down this road of what he wants in that role.
BROWN: And we all know when they go up before, you know, Congress and these hearings that they're trying to impress the boss, right? It's an audience of one. And we saw -- we saw a snippet of that during this moment when she brought up the Dow. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: None of them ask Merrick Garland over the last four years, one word about Jeffrey Epstein. How ironic is that? You know why? Because Donald Trump -- the Dow, the Dow right now is over -- the Dow is over $50,000 -- I don't know why you're laughing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Why are you laughing?
ADRIENNE ELROD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I mean. I -- yeah, I think it's why we're all laughing. It was first of all, a very awkward moment, a very awkward attempt at correlating, you know, the two.
But look, I think this is a long time coming. I think I'm not certainly going to try to pretend that I know what is in Trump's head, but I think even Trump saw something in her that just felt a little awkward at times. I mean, she would go in front of Congress. She had she had this opposition research book.
He certainly wants his top surrogates, like she was to go out there and defend him. But it just felt like she was taking it maybe a step too far.
And speaking of surrogates, I saw that my friend Xochitl Hinojosa said on the text chain earlier that Pam Bondi was effectively a surrogate as opposed to an attorney general for the administration, for the United States government. Let's not lose sight of that.
And I do agree that perhaps anyone that he puts in this job next is going to have the same type of role, because that's what he wants, someone who's protecting his interests as opposed to the United States.
But he's lost a little bit of juice in Congress, and it's going to be very interesting. The Senate, especially some Republicans, to see how they handle whomever he puts forward, as this next nominee, if they'll even, you know, he'll get the same votes that he got with Pam Bondi. It's going to be interesting.
BROWN: Yeah. I mean, what is your thought on that? Who could be picked as a replacement and the position they'll be in?
LANZA: You know, you hear -- you hear a lot. EPA Administrator Zeldin. You hear what is it? The acting attorney general related to human rights, Harmeet Dhillon. You know, there's certainly plenty of people on that list. Certainly, people qualified.
But I think Adrian says it the best way is, is when they have to testify. That's where it gets tricky. And that's where it gets really hard, right? That's either razzle dazzle or that's, you know, they're, you know, bedazzling a very bad product.
And, you know, Bondi's -- Bondi's testimonies have been rough, have been bad where other testimonies, you know, Marco Rubio certainly Secretary Marco Rubio has been better. I think that's the line that all these cabinet members have to dance. And that's where, you know, that's where the real judgment comes by that audience of one.
BROWN: I know attorney general obviously is a prestigious position, but I mean, who would want it? I mean, we saw we saw the true social post when Trump called out Pam Bondi about not going hard enough after his perceived political enemies.
(CROSSTALK)
LANZA: I mean, there's -- listen, it's a -- it's a very powerful position. There's a lot you can do. I think most people decide, you know, let me see what I can do and try to manage the president at the same time. And that just the managing the president at the same time is just -- they're untenable most of the time.
[16:15:03]
BROWN: And will this -- putting a new person in this role as the attorney general, will that solve any of the president's Epstein problems?
GOLDBERG: I don't know, look, president's Epstein --
LANZA: Epstein's over now.
GOLDBERG: Yeah.
BROWN: Is it?
GOLDBERG: The Epstein thing is going to have --
BROWN: Half of the survivors will tell you that.
GOLDBERG: -- half-life that endures past the heat death of the sun. We're not going to stop hearing about Epstein for 20 years, and we haven't stopped hearing about the Kennedy assassination.
BROWN: You just said it's over. You just said it's going on for 20 years.
GOLDBERG: That's wishful thinking. He's making the wish, the father of the thought there. Look --
BROWN: Okay.
LANZA: I'm an optimist.
GOLDBERG: But I think in particular, it's a -- it's a -- it's a rough job to ask somebody who wants to have a good reputation in the law, which a lot of lawyers tend to want. It's even harder if you, if you expect, which is reasonable, the minimum the Democrats are going to take back the House and being Trump's -- a frustrated, increasingly lame duck president, being his attorney general, when you're going to have Democrats with subpoena power, that's just -- like a lot of these. A lot of the candidates have nice jobs now. And I don't see it being too attractive to a lot of people.
WILLIAMS: Just all -- virtually of the 10 people who have served as the attorney general, many of them were loyalists to the president, but still met a very unfortunate fate because it's a very, very hard job to do to serve this president. And you know, whoever it is, no matter whether politics are, even if they're loyal to the president, they're going to meet the same fate she did.
BROWN: That's why I asked. Who would want this, knowing how it's likely going to play out?
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
BROWN: All right. Stay with us. Lots to discuss today.
Andrew McCabe, thank you as well.
The rest of the panel, stay with us.
Up next in THE ARENA, we're going to talk live at the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, Congressman Robert Garcia. His committee has been leading their own investigation into the Epstein files.
Plus, another wild day on Wall Street. Socks and the price of oil on shaky ground after President Trump's primetime speech on the war in Iran. It seems to be doing little to calm global jitters.
We'll be back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you feel like the president's address added any clarity?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. They've got more confusion than clarity. There's no -- no -- he never has any clarity at all. He says one thing that's completely opposite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:21:33]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): She has to comply with the subpoena. Chairman comer has put the subpoena out. Remember, there was a united Democratic committee that voted for that, as well as several Republicans that actually joined. We all joined together in that. She has to comply to that if she's going to try to get out of that. That's going to be a big problem for us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So that was the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, Congressman Robert Garcia, leaving a closed door meeting two weeks ago with then Attorney General Pam Bondi, during which she refused to commit to testifying under oath before the panel.
Today, he is demanding the same thing that Bondi, even if she is no longer attorney general, is still legally obligated to appear before the committee as part of its probe into Jeffrey Epstein.
And Democratic congressman of California, Robert Garcia, joins us now to further discuss.
Nice to see you.
So, what do you expect will happen with the subpoena now?
GARCIA: Well, she has to comply with the subpoena. And after that appearance from a couple of weeks ago, Chairman Comer reaffirmed the subpoena was still in place. It's legal. It was voted in a bipartisan way. All Democrats, a handful of Republicans.
And that subpoena, by the way, is very clear that Pam Bondi is to appear in front of our committee in just under two weeks, whether she is attorney general or not, the subpoena is for her. And so, she now has an opportunity, which is incredibly important to address the committee about the Epstein files, about the failures of that investigation. But she also has an opportunity now to give us 100 percent the truth and the facts under oath. I think that's going to be an important moment. We look forward to her testimony.
BROWN: Do you know where Chairman Comer stands on all of this? Have you spoken with him?
GARCIA: So, Chairman Comer, and of course, our teams communicate often. Chairman Comer said earlier that they are evaluating the subpoena and that he's going to be talking to the members of his of the committee. We've already talked to members of his committee, many of them also want the subpoena to go forward. And so, we expect that.
There is no justification for not having the attorney general in front of us. We have had a major, major, in our opinion, White House cover up from day one. The files were on Pam Bondi's desk, and they were not. They called this investigation a hoax. The president wanted it to be over.
And Pam Bondi has completely botched the release of even what files they put forward. I mean, only about 50 percent of the files actually ever ended up getting released. And of those, they included survivors and names and photos causing harm to the actual survivors. And so, we have a lot of questions for the attorney general.
Look, I'm glad that she is moving on from this position, but we've got to ensure that the truth with this investigation still gets out.
BROWN: What about Todd Blanche, who is the deputy attorney general now the interim head of the DOJ? Do you expect him to appear before your committee with a subpoena?
GARCIA: We absolutely want to hear from Todd Blanche. Look, Todd Blanche, by the way, is -- was Donald Trump's former personal lawyer. I want to remind folks of that. And this is the same person that moved Ghislaine Maxwell from a secure facility to this kind of, you know, club -- Club Fed facility where she has roaming around, she's able to communicate, talk to pets, having secret meetings with god knows who.
And so why Ghislaine Maxwell was actually moved by Todd Blanche and by Pam Bondi, I think is a really important question. And Todd Blanche has a lot to answer for because he also has been involved in the Epstein files and the way they've been -- they've been released and the files that have still yet to be sent to the public and to the Congress.
[16:25:07]
And so, we want to hear from Todd Blanche. But right now, Pam Bondi has a real unique opportunity to come forward and give us the truth. She doesn't work for Donald Trump anymore. She's not going to be the attorney general. Let's get justice for the survivors and tell us exactly what's going on with the Epstein files.
BROWN: What do you believe was the final straw for Attorney General Bondi?
GARCIA: Well, I think it's clear that, one, Donald Trump always feels that if someone begins to speak to Congress, someone's about to actually have to testify in front of the Congress. He likes to step away. He likes to cut and run. He likes to turn his back on his on his own people.
I think you realize that Pam Bondi has been quite ineffective. He probably wants an even more loyalist person to be in that position, which it would be hard to find in my opinion.
But look, Donald Trump doesn't like the way that I think Democrats and the American public have been effective in demanding the release that we've pushed on the Epstein files. Those survivors have been front and center, and I think he realizes that on the Epstein files, he is massively underwater. The American public believe that there's a cover up going on. They don't believe in the attorney general.
And I think he sees and understands that. But if he thinks that letting her go is going to stop us or stop us from getting her testimony, he's gravely mistaken.
BROWN: One of the names being tossed around to replace her is Lee Zeldin. The EPA administrator.
What is your sense of how might he be different or similar to Bondi in this role?
GARCIA: Look, obviously, Lee Zeldin is a loyalist to Donald Trump, a personal friend of his, obviously, someone that he knows well. What we want is someone that's going to follow the law. That's what we want. That's the most important thing is follow the law, stick to the truth and actually meet with the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, which Pam Bondi has refused to do. That's what our ask is.
And to follow the law and to follow the Oversight Committee subpoena and release the rest of the files. 50 percent of the files have not been released to the public, and the survivors and the public deserve to know the truth.
BROWN: What lessons will you take away from your experience overseeing attorney general Pam Bondi to whoever the next attorney general is?
GARCIA: Look, I think -- I think a lesson for everyone across this country, including Democrats, is you got to fight like hell to get the truth and you got to push hard and you can't give up. And you got to continue to fight to get truth and transparency in this government. I think we've shown from day one that we weren't going to let Pam Bondi, the A.G., off the hook. We weren't going to let Todd Blanche off the hook.
We fought and really scraped our way to getting subpoenas out of not just the DOJ, but of the Epstein estate. And we got that big subpoena for Pam Bondi to come under oath and testify exclusively on the Epstein files. I think we've got to continue to fight for that truth and for the survivors. I think that's a lesson for all of us, is that Donald Trump may think or may want to be some authoritarian king in this country, that there is a check and balance system, and that includes congress, and that includes the courts. BROWN: Before you go, I -- this is random, but I heard today that
you're a "Real Housewives" star and there's a connection here because the former Bravo star Jen Shah did this "People Magazine" interview following her release from the same prison where Ghislaine Maxwell is held. You brought her up. And the fact that Todd Blanche had moved her to this other facility.
This is what Shah had to say about Maxwell. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEN SHAH, FORMER REALITY TV STAR: Her experience there is -- is very different from anyone else's, even Elizabeth and I. She is treated very differently there. She made it very publicly known -- well, at least to, you know, Elizabeth and I, that there's no remorse there.
And again, I obviously don't know all the details of, of the case or whatever, but -- I mean, we know enough. It was a lot when the victims would be on TV and talking. She was just -- complete disregard for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, what is your reaction to that, given what she said there about Maxwell's treatment and attitude? Would the House Oversight Committee ever seek to subpoena Jen Shah?
GARCIA: Well, I never thought that my interest and love for "The Real Housewives" franchise and my work on Oversight would collide.
But actually, we reached out to Jen Shah yesterday. I'm not sure if that's been reported or not or that, but we actually reached out to her through a representative. We actually want to talk to her.
Look, at the end of the day, she is someone that's interacted with Ghislaine Maxwell in that prison. She clearly has information about what Ghislaine Maxwell was saying to others, and we have not had access to folks in that prison that have been interacting with Ghislaine Maxwell.
[16:30:00]
So, we think that Ms. Shah might have important information.
And so, if she is watching, please respond. We definitely want to talk. I think she's got critical information.
BROWN: What's your indication about whether she would talk to your committee or not, just from talking to her representative?
GARCIA: I think that we are -- we're engaged in a -- in a -- in a communication with her representatives. And were hopeful that she'll come and speak with us.
BROWN: Two very different worlds colliding here.
Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you so much for coming on.
And coming up in THE ARENA, we're going to talk with someone who, like Pam Bondi, served as a personal attorney for Donald Trump. Bill Brennan, who was part of the president's defense team in his second impeachment trial, he is here live with us.
But first, European leaders expressing their frustrations with President Trump over the war in Iran, with one major U.S. ally saying the president cannot be taken seriously.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And we blasted the hell out of him out of Iran. And the last thing I needed was NATO stepping in our way, because they're not -- they're a paper tiger, but -- so we didn't need them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:35:28]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Iran has been essentially decimated. The hard part is done, so it should be easy. And in any event, when this conflict is over, the strait will open up naturally. It will just open up naturally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: President Trump's first prime time address since launching the war with Iran did not calm the markets. Instead, oil is now over $110 -- $110 a barrel, and gas prices are only rising.
Last night, President Trump provided a new timeline for the end of the war, and it doesn't exactly fit his original assessment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We've already won in many ways, but we haven't won enough.
You know, you never like to say too early you won. We won.
Most people say it's already been won.
I don't think it's going to be long.
It'll be wrapped up soon.
It won't be much longer. It's moving along fast.
Oh, I think we've won.
I don't like to say this. We've won this. This war has been won.
We had to take a little detour. It won't be long going to end soon.
We've already won the war. Militarily, we've totally won the war.
We'll be leaving very soon
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. Retired Major General James "Spider" Marks joins our panel as well.
We're going to get to you in just a minute. But first I want to go to Bryan, a Trump ally, to get your assessment of the speech last night and the reaction to it subsequently.
LANZA: Yeah, listen, I think the reaction from some people that I heard wasn't necessarily any new information. These are things that the president had said for the last five weeks, and it sort of didn't break any new ground. The place where ground was maybe broken a little bit further was the potential of ground troops. And that has the MAGA base freaking out.
Now, whether they put all the blame on President Trump, I don't think I've seen that yet. I've seen the MAGA base sort of lashing out at Secretary of State Rubio, who's also a national security advisor. They're being critical of there. They're lashing out to J.D. Vance not necessarily being, you know, you know, raising enough red flags saying maybe we you know, he should have been louder in his opposition to it early.
But that tends to be the MAGA bases. They're always as upset as they get as Trump. They're looking for another target. And it appears right now that Rubio tends to be that target.
BROWN: Would you like to have seen that speech at the beginning of the war?
LANZA: Yeah, absolutely. I would have liked to have seen sort of a more defined speech. I mean, you know, I was listening to the hour earlier when you had Steve Moore.
You know, he said the exact same thing I want to hear. It is clear that that this is a radical regime. The minute they get nuclear weapons, they will have a radical vision of the world. And it could be a short world for the rest of us.
And creating that urgency with around the nuclear weapon component that we have to go in and seize these -- these uranium rods to make sure that this regime can never have access. I think that is that one consistent cell probably could have worked as opposed to early on you had several messages that were just sort of splattered everywhere and hoping one of them stuck.
WILLIAMS: And I think a problem there is that the president started off by saying that the war would be four to six weeks long. We're now at week five, and last night, he's saying, well, maybe it's another two or three weeks. Now, that we've all talked about this on this program, that that two
week figure is something that the president has used for the last ten years. Basically, when talking about whenever something is of an indeterminate time, it's just going to be two more weeks.
So, I mean, frankly, I'm curious about how the MAGA base really, you know, that is quite skeptical of open-ended wars and open ended troop deployments as frankly, they should be takes hearing that and how, you know, we don't know when this is going to end.
GOLDBERG: Yeah, I do agree with Bryan in the sense that there's a thing that runs through MAGA world, which for a long time, which is the president can't fail. He can only be failed, right? So that's why Pam Bondi is going. That's why Marco Rubio is the problem.
The problem -- and I've said this a million times, but the problem isn't that Trump and the administration haven't offered an explanation for why were at war. It's that they've offered every conceivable explanation for why we're at war.
And that speech was an example of it. He wants to do this thing where he tells the markets one thing and the MAGA base another thing, and skeptical independents another thing.
And the problem is you do it all in one speech and you contradict the things that you're saying. Everyone hears the whole thing and it's -- ends up just being confusing rather than a straightforward argument for why we went in and why we need to stay a little longer.
BROWN: It does make you wonder if this is just like, you know, the conclusion of him wanting to do this for all these decades, he's been talking about Iran and wanting to go in for decades, right? Now, it's final term as president.
It has been a problem for decades, and that is true. But the fact that he hasn't outlined that clear objective, as you just said, and has been kind of all over.
GOLDBERG: Right, and also just psychologically, if you offer a million -- it's sort of like that scene in the Blues Brothers where, Jim -- where John Belushi says, I had a flat tire, my car broke down, the dry cleaners were closed.
[16:40;06]
And he just runs through a thousand different excuses for what he's doing until you realize he's just groping for all these things.
To do that after you've already committed the country to war does not move people.
BROWN: And it also -- in terms of the timeline, you know, they have been saying they were ahead of schedule. But if you do the math --
GOLDBERG: It's not.
BROWN: It's not.
GOLDBERG: Literally not.
BROWN: It's not ahead of schedule. It's behind schedule. Based on the numbers that the administration has put out.
And you're talking about voters and what they're thinking. We actually spoke to some voters in North Carolina today, and here's what they had to say about a speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I supported that guy. I was -- in the beginning, I was all up for him, like, okay, no, great. What he's saying is right -- maybe that was my mistake there.
REPORTER: You don't feel like he's followed through on --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought it was a lot of back and forth and not giving a truthful answer or a clear answer, being that I was a veteran and I spent about ten years over in the Middle East. He deserves to give the people clarity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: How do you respond to that, Bryan?
LANZA: Well, he absolutely needs to give people more clarity. I mean, you always, constantly have to communicate to the people when you're committing American troops. So it's just not clarity. You know, six weeks ago, you know, or clarity today, it's going to be more clarity in two weeks.
But I think the challenge that this administration has is what Jonas says is there's too many messages flying around, and it's not that one that's scary enough. I'm sorry. I grew up in an era where the threat of nuclear, you know, of bad guys getting nuclear bombs and sent it off, scared the hell out of me.
But there's so many things that that are out there now that you just don't have that one thing that is scary. And let's be clear, everybody here believes Iran is a -- is a terrorist regime and wants to cause nothing but maximum harm to the United States. Well, if they have unrestricted access to building a nuclear bomb, that unrestricted harm comes to our borders pretty fast. And that's what I think the president should have. And his team should have articulated much louder from the very beginning. And I think that's the only message they should be using.
BROWN: But instead, there's different messages were getting, including one that came out of this easter lunch from the White House yesterday. Let's take a listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I actually said to them, I said to Russell, don't send any money for daycare because the United States can't take care of daycare. That has to be up to a state. We can't take care of daycare.
We're a big country. We've got 50 states. We have all these other people. We're fighting wars. We can't take care of daycare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: How much will Democrats be seizing on that for the midterms?
ELROD: I mean, we're going to seize on a lot of things, but yeah, we're certainly going to seize on something like that. I mean, but going back to the way that Trump has handled the situation with Iran, I mean, Pam, you remember 108 minutes, State of the Union Address. He spent three minutes talking about Iran.
He could have primed the American people for this. He could have said what he said last night in a larger context, when you had a captive audience. Instead, people are like, wait a minute, I voted on Trump because prices were too high. I voted for him because I was frustrated because I felt like the Biden administration wasn't listening to my problems in doing something about it.
I didn't vote for him because I thought we were going to go to war. And when you said putting boots on the ground, that is very alarming. That is something that I think is going to -- if that gets to that point, which it feels like we're moving in that direction, that is going to cause major problems for him in the midterms.
BROWN: Let's bring Spider Marks in.
Does it feel to you, General, if that its moving in this direction to put boots on the ground?
MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, I certainly hope not. But first, I feel like I may be on the wrong panel. We're talking Belushi and daycare, so --
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: You're on the right path. I can assure you. I can assure you.
MARKS: Dialed in.
BROWN: You are dialed in, and we want to get your military perspective, especially when it comes to the boots on the ground, because that is something that obviously would be a big escalation and would put a lot of American soldiers in harm's way.
Do you see that happening?
MARKS: Yeah. Pamela, the deal is, is we've got two marine expeditionary units showing up in the course of a few days. You'll have about -- that's about 5,000-plus. Then you have the 82nd Airborne elements of the 82nd that are on call. Some elements have already been in theaters.
So, let's just give them a round number of about 10,000. That would be an insignificant number of troops, in order to either go ashore north of the straits and try to clear out that element of the Zagros Mountains. Could it be done?
Oh, yeah. I mean, the marine corps and the look, I grew up in that space. We can do that. We can do that. But is that what you want to do? And that type of an environment with the risks of the Iranians maybe turning that into a, what we call a dirty battlefield with chemicals.
I mean, nobody has ever lined up. And I was Mr. WMD when we went to war in Iraq, and nobody has ever dialed down what Iran's capacity is to deliver either biological weapons or chemical weapons. That would be a nasty, dirty, environment.
CENTCOM is playing through all that. They are planning for that. But boots on the ground would be for what particular purpose.
[16:45:01]
And what I hear is securing the highly enriched uranium.
My first question is how much do they have? Do we have a good sense of that? I grew up in the intelligence community, and we can get it wrong. And oh, by the way, where is it? It's just not necessarily in Isfahan, Natanz or Fordow. It could be in somebody's backyard or on the back of a truck migrating through the countryside.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Actually -- on that note, I want to play this the sound from Trump on that note, just hold your thoughts and then talk about it on the other side really quick. Let's listen to this.
Oh, actually, this is what he said. This is what he told, I believe Reuters. He said in terms of the enriched uranium that's so far underground, I don't care about that. We'll always be watching it by satellite. And he said Iran was incapable of developing a weapon now.
What do you think about that?
MARKS: Let me go to the second part of that statement. I agree, they're probably incapable of doing that based on the damage that they've suffered over the course of last summer's strikes and what they're -- what they've been on, what they have had to suffer through, which is a good deal for them to suffer through it. I think over the course of the last month.
So, what the United States, I can -- I can say with certainty we've delayed their ability to develop a nuclear weapon. We will never know with certainty until you can start to open doors, put boots on the ground and do it. That's the challenge.
BROWN: All right. Retired Major General Spider Marks, thank you so much.
And the rest of the panel, stand by.
Coming up next, new reaction to President Trump's firing of Attorney General Pam Bondi. We'll talk with one of the president's former personal attorneys. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:50:56]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: I will not politicize that office. I will not target people simply because of their political affiliation. Justice will be administered evenhandedly throughout this country.
No one will be prosecuted, investigated because they are a political opponent.
There will never be an enemies list within the Department of Justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So that was the now fired attorney general, Pam Bondi, promising lawmakers, as you heard at her confirmation hearing, that she would not politicize the Department of Justice. Sources are now telling CNN that one reason President Trump was frustrated with Bondi was her failure to do exactly that. Bondi had not investigated or prosecuted enough of his political opponents, they said.
Former Trump attorney Bill Brennan joins us now for some more perspective.
And I'm wondering what you think about all of this, because you worked with president Trump in the past. Can you start by talking about what it's like to try to meet his expectations and what you think Bondi could have done differently, in your view?
WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: Well, hello, Pam. Thanks for having me.
When I had interactions with the president during the second impeachment, in the Senate and then some other matters that we tried a case in the Manhattan court for the Trump Payroll Corporation, the dealings I had with the president, were very similar really any other client. He's, you know, a demanding guy as most people who are in positions of power are. But I didn't personally experience any issues of him putting his thumb on the scale or not listening to reason.
And, you know, I've heard a lot of speculation today that, General Bondi was fired because she wouldn't do his bidding. And that's been a theme, with respect to this particular attorney general in this president. But, you know, it's important to remember, if we look back at different administrations and the relationships between presidents and attorneys general. In the early '60s, in 1961, President John F. Kennedy appointed his brother, Robert Kennedy, 35 years old, as the youngest attorney general ever. In 1981, President Reagan appointed his personal lawyer, Ed Meese.
So, the comments I've heard today about, well, you know, he picked one of his lawyers, general Bondi was one of the lawyers in the first impeachment, I don't think that's unusual. I think that's what you do in any organization. You pick the people you feel you know, and you can trust.
As far as the comments that were just made earlier about an enemies list, there's been, the failed indictments of Director Comey and attorney general, the attorney general from New York. But if we look at that situation. If we look at the attorney general from New York, when she ran her entire campaign was, I'm going to get Trump, I'll get Trump, let me in, you know, elect me, let me in there. Let me do what I got to do.
So, you know, this, this ad hominem attack issue seems to really apply to both sides from time to time, but I think General Bondi did the best she could for the year that she was in office, and, you know, in tough circumstances, and it would appear to me that it's not a personal thing. If we look at just yesterday, General Bondi and the president attended the birthright citizenship argument. So, you know, these things happen and she served her year and she'll move on.
BROWN: Given what Trump's expectations are, though, because I think many of his allies and even critics would argue that Pam Bondi did a lot of his bidding, right? How do you -- how are you successful as an attorney general under President Trump?
BRENNAN: Well, I've never been in the position, but as a lawyer who's represented him personally and his corporation -- for me, I mean, I can only speak to my own personal experience. I did what I would do with any client. I gave good advice and I did the thing that I thought was best. And frankly, I took the clients' input, but I pretty much did what I wanted to do. And I think that's -- that's what you have to do to be successful.
BROWN: You said he was demanding. How so?
BRENNAN: Well, I mean, the guy has been a successful businessman for years, a huge real estate empire, casinos, all types of other business. And he's been the president of the United States now for two nonconsecutive terms.
So, I think if it's Donald Trump or Donald Duck, that person is going to be demanding, but he wants what he wants when he wants it. But the lawyer has to draw the line between respecting and listening to the client and doing what the client wants. Unless what the client wants is in line with what the lawyer should be done, I think should be done.
BROWN: All right. Bill Brennan, thank you for your time. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: All right. Thanks to my panel.
And Jake Tapper is standing by for THE LEAD.
And, Jake, I just learned that you adopted a dog. Your family adopted a dog.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, "THE LEAD": My son did a rescue, a rescue. I'll have -- I'll have more information when I'm allowed to share it but --
BROWN: Breaking news.
TAPPER: He's a sweet boy. He's a hound dog rescued from a bear trap in West Virginia.
BROWN: Wow.
TAPPER: So, yeah, we're really happy. We're lucky to have him. Thanks, Pamela.
BROWN: Absolutely. Have a great show.
TAPPER: We'll look for more on THE ARENA tomorrow.
BROWN: Sounds good.
