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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Trump Cites Progress In Iran Talks While Threatening To Resume War; Soon: Israel-Lebanon Ceasefire Set To Take Effect; Trump: "I Have A Right To Disagree With The Pope"; Artemis II Crew Discusses Moon Mission, What's Next. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired April 16, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Be sure to catch the latest episode of the CNN original series, "EVA LONGORIA SEARCHING FOR FRANCE." It airs this Sunday night at 9:00 Eastern and the next day on our CNN app.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon.
Jessica, we'll see you again tomorrow?
DEAN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Excellent.
DEAN: Close out the week.
SANCHEZ: THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
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KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's great to have you with us on this Thursday.
As we come on the air, one ceasefire about to start, another getting closer to the end.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's looking very good that we're going to make a deal with Iran, and it's going to be a good deal. If there's no deal, fighting resumes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Right now, President Trump expressing new optimism that the U.S. and Iran are inching closer to some kind of agreement on ending the war. However, he also says if the two sides don't reach a deal by the time the ceasefire ends on Monday, all bets are off and the fighting will start up again.
At this hour, there's still no confirmation from the White House that a second round of face-to-face talks with Iran will happen, but the president is saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Maybe over the weekend.
REPORTER: Mr. President, will you send the vice president?
TRUMP: Make sure you understand, the blockade has been incredible. It's been -- it's held. They're not doing any business. They're unable to do any business because of the blockade.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: In the meantime, we are now less than an hour away from the start of a 10-day ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon, something that the president is already hoping to make more permanent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think we're going to have a deal. We're going to have a meeting first time in 44 years, and Lebanon will be meeting with Israel, and they're probably going to do it at the White House.
REPORTER: When -- Mr. President, when do you think they will --
TRUMP: Over the next week or two.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA. My panel is here.
But we're going to get started with CNN's senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes, and CNN Jerusalem correspondent Jeremy Diamond.
Thank you both very much for being here.
Kristen, let me start with you. What more are we hearing from Washington, from the administration about the Israel-Lebanon ceasefire?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kasie, I just got off the phone with a U.S. official who kind of walked me through a timeline of how exactly this happened, essentially starting with that meeting on Tuesday that was led by Marco Rubio, the secretary of state at the State Department, with leaders from Lebanon and Israel. That then prompted a call between President Trump and the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, in which Netanyahu agreed to certain terms. We still don't know exactly what they meant by certain terms of a ceasefire.
That prompted another round of calls. Marco rubio, calling the head of the president of Lebanon and then President Trump today calling both leaders. They have outlined what the ceasefire would look like. And in this outline, one of the points that I do want to note, it says that they both have the right to take all necessary measures in self- defense.
Now, President Trump has said that he's hoping to have these talks with the leaders for this ultimate peace deal at the White House. Here's what he said about those talks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Israel and Lebanon tried to make peace before. What's going to be the difference this time?
TRUMP: Me, I'm the difference -- big difference. Me
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Obviously, they're saying that he is the difference that can bring peace between Lebanon and Israel, or at least long term peace throughout the ceasefire.
And one other thing to note, President Trump mentioned that these negotiations, these in-person conversations with Pakistan and Israeli -- excuse me, and Iranian and U.S. officials would happen or could happen as early as this weekend. And then he said that he himself could be going to Islamabad, which was very striking, specifically, given what the conversations we had had around even the vice president going because of security concerns.
But of course, we'll see how that plays out.
HUNT: Indeed.
So, Jeremy Diamond, an Israeli official, told CNN Israel's cabinet hadn't even voted on the ceasefire before President Trump announced that this deal had been made. I mean, are all the parties here, including Hezbollah, on the same page?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. You know, Kasie, that moment was really quite striking. We had just learned that the Israeli security cabinet was hosting a holding a phone consultation to discuss the ceasefire. And moments later, President Trump tweeted out that this ceasefire would go into effect at 5:00 p.m. Eastern Time. Now, the cabinet hadn't yet voted on it, but shortly thereafter, a few hours later, the Israeli prime minister came out to the Israeli public and delivered remarks, a three-minute video statement that he released, where he really tried to make the case to the Israeli public for why he had agreed to this temporary ceasefire. And he did indeed emphasize the temporary 10-day nature of this ceasefire. He framed it as a chance to make a historic agreement with Lebanon, and that that was why he was pursuing this ceasefire.
But make no mistake, it followed days of relentless pressure from the White House, including from President Trump himself, on the phone with Prime Minister Netanyahu initially last week, urging him to scale back strikes in Lebanon to engage in negotiations with Lebanon and then ultimately to pressure him into this very ceasefire agreement altogether.
[16:05:07]
And now, as it relates to Hezbollah, we haven't yet seen an official statement from them. But a member of parliament, the Lebanese parliament, a member Hezbollah, a member of that parliament, said that if Israel stops striking inside Lebanon, then Hezbollah will also cease its attacks. And what we have seen tonight is that that fire hasn't ceased yet. It will go right up until that very moment that that ceasefire goes into effect, maybe even spilling over after that ceasefire is announced.
And indeed, Hezbollah rocket fire has been continuing relentlessly tonight in northern Israel.
Another note, the Israeli prime minister making clear that even though he has agreed to the ceasefire, that doesn't mean that Israeli troops will leave southern Lebanon. In fact, he made clear that they will remain up to ten kilometers inside Lebanese territory, maintaining a security buffer zone there. We'll see what that means for the potential of Israeli prime minister and the Lebanese president sitting down together at the White House. In the past, the Lebanese government has, of course, objected to the presence of Israeli troops inside Lebanese territory -- Kasie.
HUNT: Indeed.
All right, Jeremy Diamond, Kristen Holmes, thanks very much for starting us off with your reporting.
Joining me now in THE ARENA, CNN global affairs analyst Brett McGurk. He's a former Middle East adviser to four different presidents.
It's always great to have you, sir. Thank you very much for being here.
Can I first get your perspective on the ceasefire? Seems like a necessary piece of a bigger picture. What do you make of how it fits in and whether you think it's going to hold?
BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Exactly, Kasie, what I see -- and again, this can still go either way as we count down to Tuesday at the end of the main ceasefire with Iran. But I see you're setting the table, trying to set the table for what might be a second round of talks between the U.S. and Iran to try to reach some sort of framework agreement that can extend the ceasefire and really deal with the nuclear issue, which the president's been talking about. That's basically what's happening. So, two big moves today.
Asim Munir, who is the Pakistani defense chief, is still in Tehran his second day in Tehran. He is the most powerful figure in Pakistan. Pakistan, of course, borders Iran, 600-mile border, nuclear armed power. He can have real influence. I think it's very good that he's there and he's leaning on the Iranians to try to get to a deal. And then you now have this ceasefire that President Trump just clearly basically pushed through to quiet down the Lebanon front, which Iran has been saying is a precondition to a second round of talks. So, if you back up, the blockade seems to be holding the ceasefire
with Iran is holding, we might now have a ceasefire in Lebanon here in about an hour, and the table seems to be set for another round of diplomacy. But I would just say, Kasie, diplomacy with Iran has kind of two speeds -- slow and slower. The Iranians always try to slow it down, and I think it's pretty good here. The White House is basically saying, hey, we have until Tuesday to get something done.
And, so let's try to do it. So hopeful. But you know, you never know in these things.
HUNT: Yeah, slow and slower. You say that as there are these suggestions that the president himself may travel to Pakistan, or at least that's what he is saying, to try to close the deal with the Iranians. I mean, considering the pace that they usually go and the pace that the president is clearly interested in, which is fast or faster, is that a good idea?
MCGURK: I would not send the president United States to a negotiating room unless you really have it precooked. So that would basically mean Munir, the Pakistani defense chief, after he's in Tehran, he calls us and said, we got it locked and lets now go and kind of close it down.
But that would be, Kasie, a framework deal. And what are we talking about there? I think it's important to keep this in mind. And that's why I think everybody should be supporting this. I don't care if it's our allies. I don't care like it's about the nuclear issue.
Iran has about 440 kilograms of highly enriched uranium that's buried. That's enough for about 10 weapons. They've got to get that out of their country. That's demand number one. I think everybody should be supporting that.
And then demand number two is on enrichment. Because if you can't enrich uranium, you can't move towards a weapon. Iran insists on enriching uranium. They might say they can pause for a period of years.
And, you know, this is a big problem because they don't need to enrich uranium. They want to enrich uranium because they want to have a weapons program.
I mean, the UAE is a country near Iran. They have a world class civil nuclear program. About 20 percent of UAE's electricity, they don't enrich uranium. Iran has spent almost $1 trillion, their nuclear program provides almost no electricity to the country.
So, enrichment is a real issue. So, I think these two demands are very legitimate. Get the stockpile out of your country. And we got to deal with enrichment. And you can -- you can frame that in a framework agreement that Iran might agree to some things that that we can back up. But longer term, Kasie, a real deal. You need verification. You need inspectors. It's complicated.
[16:10:00] And to get that done by Tuesday, I think it'll be very difficult. So I'd be looking for hopefully some sort of a framework agreement that we'd be comfortable with, and that could at least extend the ceasefire. And maybe importantly, open up the Strait of Hormuz. So that's kind of where we are.
HUNT: So, yeah, I mean, speaking of the strait and of course, there is this blockade that the White House, the administration has put into place here in recent days.
I want to play for you what the president said about that during his trip today out west. Let's watch, and I'll ask you about it on the side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have a very good relationship with Iran right now. As hard as it is to believe, and I think it's a combination of about four weeks of bombing and a very powerful blockade. The blockade is maybe more powerful than the bombing, if you want to know the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: How would you translate that?
MCGURK: I think the blockade on Iranian ports, I think was a smart play, Kasie, because the Iranians believed their leverage is the increasing economic pressure on the world and particularly on President Trump. That is what they believe. And time is on their side. And to flip the script and say, actually, if you're going to shut the Strait of Hormuz, you're not going to benefit. Your ships are not going to get out. That is going to bite the Iranians.
And if it goes on for another week or ten days, they have to shut down all their oil production. And that's going to really have an effect on them. And importantly, this gets the attention, Kasie of China, you know, China, all of -- almost all of Iran's exports go to China. It's about 15 percent of China's imports.
But the Chinese have an interest here, too. And the UAE had a delegation in China. And I'm told the Chinese are also putting pressure on Iran.
So, the blockade is a military tool, which is also reinforcing the diplomacy, again, to try to set the table. The Iranians will try to weasel out of this. They will try to slow the clock. They will try to not commit to anything. Extended talks.
And I think you got to keep the pressure on. But hopefully we can get something that allows the ceasefire to be extended, because I think the worst case here would be the war reignites after the 21st and that deadline. So, it's going to be a really dynamic four or five days here coming up.
HUNT: Dynamic. It's a word that covers a lot of ground and makes a lot of sense in this -- in this context. I'm glad you raised China because there was this "Financial Times" investigation yesterday that says that the IRGC, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, used Chinese satellite technology in their targeting of U.S. military assets across the Middle East.
Do you have a -- do you feel like you know where the Chinese are in all of this? Because it does seem like there are some mixed signals.
MCGURK: That is deeply concerning report. I hope it's not true, but this is -- and this gets to the broader backdrop for what's happening in Iran. We've talked before about the CRINK, China, Russia, Iran, North Korea. So, take North Korea out -- China, Russia, Iran, they cooperate. It's adversarial cooperation.
The Iranian drone and missile program proliferates to Russia. It basically allows Russia to sustain its campaign in Ukraine, and the Iranian missile program has been dependent upon Chinese technology. This is why this is so kind of important for the future of the world.
Look, if we had any indication that the Chinese were sharing information or allowing access to satellite information to target U.S. troops, president of the United States has to get on the phone with Xi Jinping and say, we know this is happening. This has to stop, Trump said he did that yesterday, and that's not going to happen, I hope so.
That is a very serious thing. I have -- I had in my time, the Russians and the Chinese were very careful in those sorts of things. They have deep cooperation. But when it came to something actually targeting us, we could kind of see them step back.
But this is a big -- this is why the future of the world, Kasie, that China, Russia, Iran alliance and the sharing of technology is a real problem. And if this can end with Iran's missile and drone, industrial base degraded for a period of years, allowing defense systems to catch up, that -- that is a good thing because these missiles and drones have been targeting U.S. troops. They've been targeting U.S. ships. I lived through this before any of this happened, you know, over two years ago. So, we'll see.
But that report is concerning. And I think the U.S. presidents right to raise it. And remember, the presidents going to Beijing here in the middle of May -- on May 14, 15. And I assume he wants this Iran situation to be wrapped up by then. But the Iranians have a vote.
HUNT: Indeed, they do. Brett McGurk, thank you, as always, for your expertise. Really appreciate your time today.
MCGURK: Thank you.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, the growing political headwinds that Republicans are warning could cost them more than just control of Congress. And what the president is doing today to try and get things back on track.
[16:15:00]
Plus, the latest development in the president versus the pope. It's been a saga. And if there might be a meeting in store between the two leaders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This is the real world. It's a nasty world. But as far as the pope and saying what he wants, he can do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REPORTER: Why are you fighting with the pope? And are you worried it's upsetting your --
TRUMP: No, no, I don't. I have to do what's right. The pope has to understand that.
Very simple. I have nothing against the pope. Pope can say what he wants, and I want him to say what he wants. But I can disagree.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: New comments today from President Trump and his ongoing back and forth, shall we say, with Pope Leo. Asked today if he wanted to meet with the pontiff to try and smooth things over, the president said no.
And it's not just the pope or those multiple Jesus memes. Other members of the administration are also invoking religion when discussing the war with Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: In the passage, Jesus entered a synagogue and healed a man with a withered hand. The pharisees came to watch, but their hearts were hardened. They were only there to explain away the goodness in pursuit of their agenda. I sat there in church and I thought, our press are just like these pharisees
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Now the president is heading west. He is starting a swing through Nevada and Arizona. His first visit to a swing state in more than a month. While his party feels new, headwinds, especially on the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: How much longer will Americans continue to see these high gas prices?
TRUMP: Well, they're not very high. If you look at what they were supposed to be in order to get rid of a nuclear weapon, with the danger that entails. So, the gas prices have come down very much over the last three, four days.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: He is right, sort of. The average cost of gas has dropped about 7 cents over the past week. You know, you decide how much that matters in your wallet when you compare to where it is since the start of the war with Iran, which is up more than a dollar.
The timing of today's campaign stop, no coincidence. The headlines basically all in sync, all citing new and growing fears, anxiety, concern, unease among Republicans and inside the White House that some of the president's recent, shall we say, distractions are becoming more than that.
But even if everything could fall apart for Republicans in the midterms, as one GOP aide tells CNN, the president, of course, can still bank on considerable fervent support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TROY NEHLS (R-TX): I believe that Donald Trump is better than sliced bread. I think he's almost the second coming, in my humble opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Okay. My panel is here in THE ARENA, the editor of "The Dispatch" and CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg; the co-host of "The Interview" podcast from "The New York Times", CNN contributor Lulu Garcia-Navarro; former communications director in the Biden White House, Kate Bedingfield; former special assistant to President George W. Bush, Scott Jennings. Of course, now both CNN political commentators.
Welcome to all of you.
Where to start? There's almost an embarrassment of riches. Jonah Goldberg, would you like to select from, the pantheon of things that we have lined up from this president today?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know, I mean, like, it's difficult. It's like drinking from a fire hose. I think that the religion stuff is a real dead end politically for these guys because I don't think it, I think it turns off more people than it activates the way they're talking about it. As a general rule, not getting into a fight with the pope is just a good idea.
J.D. Vance saying --
HUNT: Who doesn't want to meet the pope?
KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.
GOLDBERG: Yeah.
HUTG: Especially the American pope.
BEDINGFIELD: That struck me as such an odd -- I interrupted, Jonah. That struck me as such an odd response. I mean, why wouldn't the president of the United States want to meet with the pope just as a global leader who has influence over a billion plus people.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Because he's weak on crime.
BEDINGFIELD: Oh, my. All right. I'm sorry. Weak on crime and terrible on foreign policy. My fault.
HUNT: So -- the -- you mentioned, Jonah, how this administration talking about religion and I want to play something that Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, you heard him at talk about, you know, comparison -- comparing the media, which, you know, let's note the press, freedom of the press is enshrined in the Constitution, for those of you who aren't as familiar or who may not be familiar with the pharisees, right? He's essentially saying that the press betrays the country, right? The pharisees betraying Jesus Christ.
It's a pretty significant statement he was making there. But I want to draw your attention to something that played out actually at a prayer service at the Pentagon, which is something that the defense secretary is now doing. He offered what he pointed to as a prayer, one -- this drew attention online.
You could figure out where the prayer actually originated. We want to kind of play for you what was pointed out as far as whether, you know, did this come from the bible or did it come from Hollywood? Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: They call it Caesar 25:17, which I think is meant to reflect Ezekiel 25:17.
SAMUEL L. JACKSON, ACTOR: Ezekiel 25:17, the path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
HEGSETH: The path of the downed aviator is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
JACKSON: I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
HEGSETH: And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother. And you will know my call sign is Sandy One when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Scott Jennings, who gets the Oscar, Pete Hegseth or Samuel L. Jackson?
JENNINGS: Well, if somethings been written in such a dramatic fashion, why rewrite it? Why reinvent the wheel? You know, look, I can't speak to any of this. Don't write any of the speeches. And not involved in the in the planning of these events. My view is this. It's not uncommon for U.S. presidents to appeal to
the heavens for the success of the U.S. military. George Washington knelt in the snow at Valley Forge and asked God to help us win the revolutionary war after all. So that is not an uncommon thing.
HUNT: Humility was the thing that defined that, though.
JENNINGS: That is not -- it is not uncommon.
HUNT: Did humility define this, do you think?
JENNINGS: I don't know, Kasie. Look, I mean, it -- look, it is not uncommon for the United States political leadership --
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You don't have to defend it. You don't have to do it.
JENNINGS: -- to appeal to the heavens for, you know, victories for the United States of America.
I mean, our last president, Joe Biden, often cited his own Catholicism to justify certain decisions that he made. So, this is not an uncommon thing.
My personal view is, as a communications matter, what I want to hear from the secretary of war, how many ships are we sinking? How many missiles are we destroying? How much of the enemy are we, you know, defeating in our military targets and so on and so forth.
So, to me, I think as Americans look at the overall project here, they want to know, are we winning militarily and are we getting close to meeting our goal of keeping these people, these fanatics, from getting a nuclear weapon? That's basically the information that I think needs to be communicated.
HUNT: And what would you say about the productivity of picking a fight with the first American pope?
JENNINGS: I agreed with what the president said today. He's welcomed his statements. And he says, you know, he's more than welcome to do that. And the presidents more than welcome to disagree.
I mean, the pope has a job to do in his role as pope. The president has a job to do in his role as the president. And he has said, we're not going to let Iran get a nuclear weapon. And frankly, my understanding is the pope doesn't believe in nuclear weapons either.
So he should look at this as an opportunity to say, hey, we're all in alignment on at least this one goal. Let's keep these fanatics that hate Western civilization from getting a nuclear weapon.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Can we -- can we just back -- can we just backpedal here, though, just a little as to how this all started? This all started because the president of the United States went on social media easter Sunday and the day after, basically saying that he was going to destroy the civilization of Iran. And that has -- and that prompted backlash because people not only saw it as war crimes, but immoral. And so, the debate started with actions that the president took and not really about whether or not Iran should have nuclear weapons.
This is really about what this president has said he will do to the people of Iran in order to get that outcome. And I think that is what has brought in the pope.
JENNINGS: You're living several days ago. Where do we stand today? We have a ceasefire.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Oh, sorry. I'm so sorry, to give context. You're right.
JENNINGS: We have a ceasefire. We have a blockade that's working. Basically, no bombs are falling right now. And we are on the brink, hopefully, of a diplomatic solution that will take away nuclear material from these fanatics and make the region and the world a safer place. Is this not an acceptable outcome?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: If this happens, I think everyone will be absolutely thrilled.
JENNINGS: But you'll still be arguing about the memes and the tweets.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, no, no, I think the context was we were talking about religion. And so, therefore, and the -- and the -- and the fight with the pope. And so, therefore, I was giving the context of how this all started. You know, it's not -- it's not --
JENNINGS: It's okay to cheer for a good outcome. It's okay to cheer for a good outcome.
(CROSSTALK)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Nothing starts, you know, two minutes ago, this has context. I was giving it, I did, but.
BEDINGFIELD: Also -- also, why can't -- so why can't Donald Trump say some version of what you just said? Why is Donald Trump's sort of egotistical, frankly sacrilegious response to criticism from the pope, which, by the way, is consistent historically, at least in terms of modern popes? It is -- it is historically consistent that Popes John Paul II was very involved in pushing back the Soviet Union from --
JENNINGS: Yes.
BEDINGFIELD: -- Poland. You had pope -- pope who came to the White House to talk to LBJ about ending the war in Vietnam. It is -- there is historical consistency with the pope -- in the pope making a statement of morality when it comes to issues of war and peace.
Donald Trump is the difference here. Donald Trump's reaction is the difference here.
JENNINGS: But you would agree -- you would agree it's not uncommon for presidents of the United States to disagree with popes, right?
BEDINGFIELD: Sure.
JENNINGS: I mean, your old boss didn't agree on abortion or gay marriage. Correct?
BEDINGFIELD: He was also a very devout Catholic who went to mass --
JENNINGS: Who happened to disagree with the pope on abortion, gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
BEDINGFIELD: Let's not inflate Joe Biden's Catholicism with the way Donald Trump talks about --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: He's off the theology on abortion and gay marriage.
HUNT: Jonah?
BEDINGFIELD: But I think that sort of touches on the real problem for the Trump administration. I thought J.D. Vance's allusion to just war theory was really problematic because according to just war theory, the war has to be legally authorized. And according to just war theory, it has to be a last resort.
And Vance is the guy who's leaking about how he didn't think this war was necessary, which is kind of problematic.
But the real political problem, I think, for the Trump administration on this is that the conservative Catholics in America really disagree with the pope on immigration.
JENNINGS: Yeah.
BEDINGFIELD: They don't disagree with the pope about this war. And so, Trump is trying to figure out how to square that circle.
JENNINGS: What do you -- how do you know? How do you know that conservative Catholics don't think it's a good idea to take nuclear weapons away from Iran? I think -- I know some conservative Catholics who think it's a great idea.
HUNT: It is you that is setting it as take nuclear weapons away from Iran.
JENNINGS: That is the red line.
HUNT: And, you know, fair enough. The president has said that. But he also said --
GOLDBERG: He's talking about JCPOA plus, right?
HUNT: And he's talking about ending civilization at one point, right? I mean, that to Lulu's point, I mean, there's a big -- even you can acknowledge, Scott, there's a big gap between saying, I want to end a civilization that's been around for millennia, and we don't want them to have a bomb. I mean, those are two very different things.
JENNINGS: Look, the president had strong language for the regime in Tehran. The problem in Iran is not Donald Trump. The problem in Tehran is this regime that is repressing 80 or 90 million people. They are the problem. They are the civilization's problem.
GOLDBERG: I agree with that entirely. The problem is that Donald Trump now says that the regime is much more reasonable and it's changed. It hasn't. The real threat isn't the nuclear program --
JENNINGS: It's changed because most of them are dead that we were.
GOLDBERG: Yeah. And the ones that got promoted up are actually, by a lot of accounts, more fanatical.
JENNINGS: Well, they're -- but they're at the table. They're at the table. They're at the table.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Do you know who they do you know who they were? They were the people that fought the Americans in Iraq, where I spent a lot of time.
So, these are people who have bear the United States no love.
JENNINGS: I agree with that.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And I guess my question, I guess my big question about all of this, I mean, I hope that this ends up to be a wonderful deal. And there is peace and prosperity for all.
My concern about this is what exactly is this deal going to be? Because we've heard what the president wants. But Iran has to get something too. And it's not clear to me what it is that they are trying to get out of this.
JENNINGS: They're trying to stay alive, would be.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: That -- that not only that.
HUNT: We're way out of time. Go ahead.
BEDINGFIELD: Just quickly, just quickly, the domestic outrage around this is not about a legitimate foreign policy disagreement between Donald Trump and the pope. It is about the tenor and tone of Donald Trump's attacks on the pope and the way that he is conducting himself. That is what people are rightly, in my opinion, upset about.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, the crew of Artemis II is back on earth. What they're saying today about their historic journey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REID WISEMAN, ARTEMIS II COMMANDER: When the sun eclipsed behind the moon, I think all four of us -- I turned to Victor and I said, I don't think humanity has evolved to the point of being able to comprehend what we are looking at right now, because it was otherworldly. It was amazing
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WISEMAN: We would also be remiss if we didn't thank the media. If we didn't thank the content creators, and if we didn't thank the world for just tuning in for a second and getting hooked on this mission. We were certainly hooked on this mission, but when we came home, we were shocked at the global outpouring of support, of pride, of ownership of this mission. And really, I think at the beginning, that's what the four of us wanted. We wanted to go out and try to do something that would bring the world together, to unite the world.
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HUNT: Today, the crew of Artemis II, fresh from their bold and historic mission to the moon and back, reflecting on what they saw, what they experienced as they ventured the farthest any humans have ever gone into space.
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WISEMAN: When the sun eclipsed behind the moon. I think all four of us. I turned to Victor and I said, I don't think humanity has evolved to the point of being able to comprehend what we are looking at right now, because it was otherworldly. It was amazing.
CHRISTINA KOCH, ARTEMIS II MISSION SPECIALIST: When my husband looked me in the eye on that video call and said, no, really, you've made a difference. It brought tears to my eyes and I said, that's all we ever wanted.
JEREMY HANSEN, ARTEMIS II MISSION SPECIALIST: All kind of struck by these things that make us feel small, and that the sense I had was the sense of fragility and feeling small, infinitesimally small. But yet, this very powerful feeling as a human being, like as a group.
VICTOR GLOVER, ARTEMIS PILOT: Tomorrow will be one week. And I just was trying to live in a little hole for one week, been off social media, not on the news. We did what we said we were going to do, and now we've got to step out and just face that reality.
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HUNT: All right. Joining me now in THE ARENA is former NASA Astronaut Mike Massimino.
Mike, thank you so much for being here. I know you have some personal connections to Victor Glover, who we saw
there. And perhaps the other astronauts.
Have you talked to any of them since they splashed down? What would you -- what have they said?
MIKE MASSIMINO, FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: Uh-huh. I have not talked to them, although I've texted them and I've heard back from them. And I think they're very busy, of course, with their debriefs, they're looking forward to getting together. I can't wait to see them. Hopefully I'll get a chance to see them in the -- in the coming weeks. But they are very much appreciative.
And I did get some email as well during the mission from them.
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They're just really appreciative of everyone supporting them. I think they -- it's hard for them to understand what was going on down here, that there was so much coverage and so much interest and so much talk going on about it. It was able to break through the news cycle and stay there that I think they're really -- really appreciative of that and they want to tell their story.
But for the past, the past week or so, they've been back. They've been really busy with debriefs and medical checks and, I think we're going to be hearing more and more from them as long as there's interest to hear from them. And I think there will be in the coming weeks.
HUNT: No, of course. I mean, it is -- it's interesting in that, you know, it's been a minute since, you know, astronauts names were widely known. You know, the people, people knew them really well.
I mean, it takes so much work, so much preparation to be able to go into space. And yet it's not been something that's really been front and center for us until now. And what can you give us any insight into what that feels like? Because I mean, they really are famous overnight, and yet they are the faces of thousands of people it takes to put them up there.
MASSIMINO: Yeah. I think, you know, one of the -- I -- it depends on your point of view, but I always felt, and I think most of us felt like one of the great things about being an astronaut. You had this great job title. I remember, Alan Bean, a moonwalker, said that you have the best job title in the world. Everyone wants it.
And -- but you also have a bit of your personal life. You know, were generally not recognizable. People might not know our names, but they very much respect what we do. And so that's -- that's one part of it.
As far as like owning it to all these people, I think it was great the way they emphasized the team part of it, not just with the four of them, but with the thousands of people that have been dedicated to this mission. And the ones -- it was hundreds of them that they had personal contact with the instructors and the flight controllers and the designers of the mission who put a lot of time in. And it was mentioned, I think Christina mentioned, you know, they put
maybe more time than the crew has and they probably have. I always felt that about the folks who were supporting my missions that they were, they were working harder than I was. They were making a lot of sacrifices and not getting any recognition for it, really.
So I think that it's important that the crew stressed that and that we should realize that it's not just those four crew people, but it's thousands of people behind them who are so dedicated to their jobs and making so many sacrifices and their families as well, to pull a mission like this off.
HUNT: One thing that really struck me watching this press conference and is you heard, and we played a little bit of it at the top, them talking about the grandiosity, right, of this, of, you know, feeling small of the bigness of being human. But there's also a lot of the small pieces of being human.
And we were just showing pictures of, you know, the Nutella flying around the cabin. They were describing how one of the things they learned on the mission was don't bury lunch underneath a whole bunch of other stuff, because if you -- and also, there seem to be some issues with -- they had a very technical term for basically peeing in space.
What did you take away from that? I mean, the sheer humanity of it.
MASSIMINO: Yeah. Those are the things, you know, you always worried about using the toilet and where's my food? And you know, the same things we have on earth. Those are the things that are important in space. And there's going to be a lot of debriefs.
We call that habitability is what it's called, you know, and that is where do you stow the food? How do you stow it? How do you keep the Nutella jar, maybe off the camera next time if it's going to cause an issue with advertising, people you know, things like that are the little things that you learn.
And for them, what a brand new spaceship, you know, how do you, where do you store things? How do you keep it under control? What's -- the finding the food? Believe it or not, it's just like you want those things. People pack those for you. You want those things in the right places. It sounds nutty, but it also is going through a drawer to find the right socks.
You know, you don't want to spend a lot of time doing that, you know, it's -- and it's -- it affects the mission. So, they're not being, you know, they're not being silly about it. It actually is a way to, to make things run more, more efficiently. And, and that's the thing, you know, you take with you some of the things you take from home. We talked about his daughter's bracelet.
You know, these are very meaningful things. These are people that go to space. And I think that they brought that out just so all of us could relate to it. HUNT: Yeah. And I mean, just all of -- all of that and what it means
to be human, both in the small ways and the biggest ones in this universe of ours.
Mike Massimino, thank you so much for sharing some of your reflections. I really appreciate your time.
All right.
MASSIMINO: My pleasure.
HUNT: Of course.
Ahead here in THE ARENA, new CNN reporting debuting this hour with the president has been asking people about Vice President J.D. Vance ahead of a potential second round of talks with Iran.
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TRUMP: So, if it doesn't happen, I'm blaming J.D. Vance. If it -- if it does happen, I'm taking full credit.
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HUNT: That was President Trump earlier this month, seeming to joke about Vice President Vance's work in the Iran talks. Now, sources tell CNN that President Trump has been closely monitoring Vance's progress in these negotiations, even asking friends and advisers how they rank his performance and wondering aloud how they think Vance compares to Secretary of State Marco Rubio, of course, a potential rival for the 2028 Republican presidential nomination.
Earlier this week, Vance was heckled at a Turning Point USA event in Georgia when the war was the subject of conversation.
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J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that one of these issues here is that there has been -- is -- again, hey, random dude screaming, I told you I'd respond to your point. I just want to respond to this question first.
And by the way, not only was our administration like the administration that solved the problem, but the president -- the president --
(HECKLING)
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VANCE: Excuse me, sir.
(HECKLING)
VANCE: Right -- right now, right now, you -- right now, you see more humanitarian aid coming into Gaza than it has any time in the past five years, because we have taken that situation seriously.
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HUNT: All right. My panel is back here.
Scott Jennings, where is the shadow campaign today? Has the president asked you what you think of J.D. Vance and compare it to Marco Rubio?
JENNINGS: No. But look, I --
HUNT: Not out of the realm of possibility.
JENNINGS: I'm happy to comment on it. I think they're both doing great. And I'll tell you why. Because J.D. Vance has been tasked with a bunch of complex issues. He's obviously in the middle of the Iran peace talks.
He's also dealing with his fraud issue. He's running the anti-fraud task force. They just suspended over 400, you know, possibly fraudulent hospice providers in California to the tune of $600 million in possible fraud.
So, he's dealing with the assignments that the president has given him. And Marco Rubio has got the Israelis and Lebanon at the table brokering a ceasefire and getting those parties together, which is a miracle. And he's also dealing with Cuba and Venezuela and the issues in the Western Hemisphere.
So, my view is I think they're both doing well. I also think, you know, like any good manager, I would also be, you know, assessing the performance of the people who work for me. I'm not surprised to hear that one bit.
HUNT: Well, it's fairly classic Trump, Jonah, to kind of ask everyone around him what they think of, you know, the political kind of question of the day.
While I appreciate Scott's effort to make this seem like everyone's singing kumbaya, it's politics. That's not actually what's going on. What do you think? Who's up and down in this?
GOLDBERG: I think the way the war has unfolded has taken a bite out of both of them to a certain extent, but more out of Vance.
And look, I just think there is this cottage industry in Washington sort of among a lot of people, a lot of Vance fans, that he's this generational talent. And I just -- I don't see it. And regardless, we've only had two sitting vice presidents since 1800, essentially ever elected straight to the White House.
Martin Van Buren, who had five opponents. It's always nice to have.
And George H.W. Bush, who had the gift from the gods to run against Michael Dukakis and the record of Ronald Reagan.
This idea that Vance is the shoo-in to succeed Trump misses the fact that Trump needs to get his approval ratings much, much, much higher. And I think Rubio is just a much more seasoned and serious politician than Vance is.
BEDINGFIELD: I think it's also worth remembering that I think that it's true that there's not anybody whose name isn't Trump, who has been in Trump's orbit consistently for four years without a spectacular falling out or without Trump deciding that he has no use for him.
So, we are still at the -- we're not even at the midway point yet. And so to sort of build a little bit on what Jonah was saying, I mean, the idea that Vance or frankly, or Rubio is sort of the shoo in at this point, given everything that's going to happen, you know, relative to the political landscape between now and 2028 and Trump's popularity, the administrations popularity, but also just the personality of Donald Trump and kind of his inability to remain consistently supportive, shall we say, of the people who are.
HUNT: Anyone except himself?
BEDINGFIELD: Oh, anyone except himself and perhaps his children, I think is a factor here, too.
HUNT: A classic Washington parlor game, Lulu, is to figure out who is trying to shape stories behind the scenes. And of course, Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan at "The Times" writing this book, put out a ticktock of the decision to go to war with Iran, and they wrote that in front of his colleagues, Mr. Vance warned Mr. Trump that a war against Iran could cause regional chaos and an untold number of casualties, and also break apart Mr. Trump's political coalition and would be seen as a betrayal by many voters who had bought into the promise of no new wars.
The speculation, of course, that Vance -- team Vance really, really wanted the world to know that that is what he did in front of his colleagues as this decision was being made.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes. I can't speak to that. Obviously, my colleagues know best, but it is clear that whenever you have something that speaks to your own sort of fortitude behind the scenes, you're the one who leaked it. I think we can all agree with that. True story, true story.
And so, you know, Vance is in a tough spot actually is what I'll say because he has been consistently against these kinds of foreign interventions. And he also has to be a loyal deputy to the president of the United States. So, he is caught having to sort of do two different messages at the same time. And one of the ways that you do that is leak behind the scenes and in front of the cameras, you do something else.
Besides that, though, you know, leaving aside the Rubio-Vance parlor game, which everyone is obsessed with, there is a big fight over what the future of the Republican Party and MAGA is anyway. And that, I think, goes far deeper than just these two men. That goes to, you know, once Trump is no longer the sitting president and he can bring together this very diverse coalition, who exactly can do that?
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And who exactly can be the person that they see as the heir apparent? And I don't think that that is clear. Whether it's Rubio or Vance, I think there's a fight right now happening over what that exactly is going to mean.
HUNT: We honestly don't talk enough about the charismatic leader theory of American politics and the way it holds together coalitions. You saw it with Barack Obama. You see it now with Donald Trump unclear who's up next.
All right. We'll be right back.
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HUNT: All right. Thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate you all being here.
Thanks to all of you at home for watching as well.
Don't go anywhere. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.
