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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Ceasefire Teeters As U.S., Iran Fire Shots In Strait Of Hormuz; New Strikes Test Iran Ceasefire As Gas Prices Hit Wartime High; Spirit Airlines Cites Recent Geopolitical Events" For Closure. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired May 04, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:03]

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Yeah. And it raises money. Correct me if I'm wrong. I know were almost out of time, but for the Costume Institute at the Met, correct?

RACHEL TASHJIAN, CNN SENIOR STYLE REPORTER: Of course. Yes.

HILL: Yeah.

TASHJIAN: Yes, of course. This is primarily how the Costume Institute pays to preserve the clothes in its collection.

HILL: I'm sure that we can petition our bosses to buy a table next year for such a good cause.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah.

HILL: So, Rachel, you can lead the charge on that one.

TASHJIAN: Of course. Good to see you.

SANCHEZ: I'm excited to see the outfits.

Thanks for being with us, Erica.

"THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.

(MUSIC)

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. Great to have you with us on this Monday. Kasie Hunt is off today. I'm Dana Bash.

Right now, new military strikes are testing an already fragile ceasefire. Both the U.S. and Iran launched attacks in the Strait of Hormuz. President Trump is saying that the U.S. shot down seven Iranian boats in the strait. That's after Tehran launched missiles and drones at American naval ships earlier today.

This afternoon, the president is telling Fox News that Iran will, quote, "be blown off the face of the earth if U.S. vessels are attacked". The new strikes and the questions over the future of the war, it's all creating new economic anxiety across the U.S. today. The average price of gas is $4.45, up nearly 30 cents in just a week and up nearly a dollar and a half since before the war.

White House officials are still insisting the war and the prices are worth it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, FOX NEWS HOST: If we were to go to $5 a gallon, is that like a psychological mark that we and you would rather stay away from?

SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: And I again, we are cognizant that the that this short-term blip up in prices is affecting the American people.

KELLY LOEFFLER, ADMINISTRATOR, SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION: There's no question, Maria, that there is a short term impact to this.

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: The rise in gas prices is having a real effect. So what would you say to those Americans? We see no end in sight yet of that war.

SEAN DUFFY, TREASURY SECRETARY: Well, listen, the -- that point is why the president has focused so hard on energy price -- pricing and American energy dominance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: As prices continue to go up, the president's approval numbers are going down. A new poll from "The Washington Post" and ABC News shows his overall disapproval is now at 62 percent. That's the highest level of disapproval this poll has ever recorded for Donald Trump in either of his two terms, two thirds of Americans disapprove of the way he's handling the overall economy and the war, and his numbers are worse on inflation.

And with the November elections just six months away, the president doesn't look to be changing his message.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Democrats start screaming affordability, affordability. They're the ones that caused the problem. I'll tell you one thing. They got one good line of bullshit. That's one thing I'll say about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. My panel is here, along with CNN senior White House reporter Betsy Klein.

Betsy, I'm going to start with you. What are you hearing from your sources there about where things stand at this hour in the Strait of Hormuz?

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORITER: Well, Dana, there's a lot of uncertainty right now, but I think there are two paths for the president at this stage. Number one, he could resume strikes against Iran, or he could downplay these skirmishes and continue to pursue a diplomatic path forward.

But you laid out all of that economic uncertainty. The president, acutely aware of the political risk here and the status of these peace talks, is incredibly fluid. The U.S. and Iran trading proposals back and forth over the weekend in an intensifying pace. The president, in a post to social media last night, said that he believed they were having, quote, "very positive discussions". The president also announcing yesterday that U.S. would be guiding ships through the Strait of Hormuz that critical oil thoroughfare, and what he described as a humanitarian mission.

Now, major questions for the status of that ceasefire. As you laid out, the U.S. and Iran have been trading shots in the strait, the U.S. blowing up six small Iranian boats after Iran launched multiple cruise missiles, drones and small boats at U.S. Navy and commercial vessels. And that is according to U.S. Central Command.

The president also ramping up his rhetoric, telling Fox News in an interview that if Iran targeted U.S. ships, quote, "they will be blown off the face of the earth." He also reacted in this post to social media. I want to read part of it to you, he said, quote, "Iran has taken some shots at unrelated nations with respect to the ship movement, Project Freedom, including a South Korean cargo ship. He goes on to say, we've shot down seven small boats or as they like to call them, fast boats. It's all they have left. Other than the South Korean ship, there has been at this moment, no damage going through the strait."

So, this might be a little confusing because to recap, Central Command says Iran has targeted U.S. Navy ships.

[16:05:03]

The president says that if Iran targets U.S. Navy ships, he will blow them off the face of the Earth. And then the president posting that Iran has targeted other countries.

We'll see if the president addresses this. He's currently speaking at a small business roundtable, where he briefly referenced this and said its all, quote, "working out very nicely" -- Dana.

BASH: All right. Betsy, thank you so much. We're definitely going to monitor the president's event right now.

My panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams; Puck's new -- Puck News's chief Washington correspondent, Leigh Ann Caldwell; Democratic congressman from Maryland, Johnny Olszewski. And he also sits on the foreign affairs committee, I should add. And we're joined here by former Republican Congressman Peter Meijer.

And former NATO supreme allied commander, retired General Wesley Clark, is also here.

General Clark, I want to start with you and just kind of give your assessment of where things really do stand in the Strait of Hormuz and pick up on where Betsy left off about what the president posted earlier today, clearly, still trying to call on U.S. allies in the region to come and help their in this case, it's South Korea, because he said that the South Korean cargo ship was the one targeted.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, tactically, we're still in the fog of war. Early hours after reporting. So, we don't know exactly who fired first at what and what was hit. What we know is there's been an exchange of rockets, missiles, drones, et cetera., and the U.S. has guided a couple of ships through, and we say destroyer got through, but its fog of war time. So, you can't exactly know tactically who shot John.

But what we do know is strategically, the United States has made a move. And that move is to say that we're not going to wait forever on this. While the Iranians send documents back and forth, were going to go ahead and were going to address the heart of the problem, which is the Strait of Hormuz. We're going to put the onus on Iran. We're going through the strait. We're going to help others go through the strait. If Iran wants to restart the war, go ahead. If you do, you'll be the loser in this.

So, I think it's a smart strategy, both from the public information side and from the military side. It's step by step going forward. We'll have to see where it emerges tomorrow, the next day and so forth. But it's a toward resolving the issue.

BASH: And bringing it here to the table.

Congressman, you do sit on the foreign affairs committee. What's your sense of what's happening and what needs to happen? It's a very fragile time.

REP. JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI (D-MD): Yeah. Well, first, I'm struck by the fact that we have multi-millionaires and billionaires telling everyday Americans it's going to be fine, $4.50 gas is okay. But as it relates to the war, I'm struck by the fact that this administration has yet to have one public hearing with the Foreign Affairs Committee. And so, as a member of Congress, I'm still learning in real time watching your show or reading the newspaper as to what's happening out there, I don't think that's a good way for our government to conduct business.

And so, I'm deeply concerned that this is going to be a re-escalation. It sure seems like the ceasefire is broken regardless of who shot first. And so, we continue to pay the price with American lives at the pump. And with the billions of dollars we're being asked to use to fund this war.

BASH: And Peter Meijer, you are a mid-Westerner. So, let's just put up some of the specifics from the region where you are from, Michigan, your home state. It's $4.86 a gallon. That's the average price of gas. Illinois is closer to $5 a gallon. Indiana, $4.81. Ohio, $4.87.

PETER MEIJER (R), FORMER MICHIGAN CONGRESSMAN: Yeah, it's higher than it should be. The Midwest has also been affected by some refinery closures, have been down for maintenance. So that's added on additional cost and supply restrictions to what was already elevated. And we're getting much closer to where we were back in 2022 after Russia invaded Ukraine in terms of gas prices. You know, I hope that we have a much steeper climb down than we saw in 2022, which lasted right around until the fall of 2023 at those elevated prices. But it's certainly something that's having an impact.

BASH: And if you were on the ballot this year as a Republican.

MEIJER: I think any time you have your party in power in the White House and it's a midterm, that is not a fun place to be, it is just a thermostatic snapback that the American electorate expects. Obviously, elevated gas prices are not something that anyone in the White House or anyone on the Republican side of the aisle wants to see. But I also think that there's a lot of time between now and November. Whether or not this will still be the dominant issue remains to be seen.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And yeah, and I bet there are many Americans who can get their head be -- heads behind the rationales for why -- for the war.

[16:10:07]

The problem is that when gas is as expensive as it is, they're not going to hear any of that, any of the -- any of those reasons. And just beyond gas, even the markets are down today. I mean, theyre volatile and of course, lots of things make them go up and down. But the Dow took a big hit today. And I just think even if people in their hearts could support the, you know, getting, you know, a non-nuclear Iran or whatever else, I just think the economic questions, particularly in an election year, are really tough for many Americans to swallow right now.

BASH: And then you have just another series of examples of where the president is right now. And that's in a position of big challenge. And that speaks to where the Republicans on the ballot this year are. I'll just put an example up, four of them, actually, from the ABC News/Washington Post poll.

On the economy overall, 34 percent approval, taxes, 38 percent, which is about the highest on this subject. Inflation, 27 percent. Cost of living, 23 percent.

That is very low.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, PUCK NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Very low. And I'm actually going to go into numbers that you didn't put up, which is also really interesting to me on issues of immigration. Donald Trump is underwater, which he has been for a while. But now in that same "Washington Post/ABC News poll, he is also underwater on the border. The one issue he actually fixed, only 45 percent of respondents approve of the presidents handling of the border, which is arguably the strongest issue heading into the midterms for Republicans.

Obviously, that's not much of a priority for voters at this moment, perhaps because it is fixed. And so cost of living is still ever present. I was talking to a person close to the administration today, and they said, we just have to hope that these gas prices in a couple months are down. And I said, well, you know, do you think it will be? And they just have -- speaking honestly, had no idea.

OLSZEWSKI: Hope isn't a strategy. And this is a president who promised on day one to lower costs. I know he panned Democrats in that earlier clip you showed, but affordability is real. Americans are struggling. They are suffering under the tariffs, under the gas prices, under the loss of health care and food supports.

And so, I think that the president would be wise if he said, yes, I hear you, Americans. I want to do something about this affordability and not pretend like it's not a real issue.

MEIJER: And I will also say, this is the one time well say this is also where I think he could -- he could use Congress more in terms of passing legislation. I'm skeptical --

OLSZEWSKI: I love that.

MEIJER: I'm skeptical that the that under a Democratic administration, anything positive would happen because I lived through the Biden years. But this is an opportunity for him to cement in some of those gains. And I think there's a lot of room for permitting reform to elements around the housing market where you can actually drive some good bipartisan legislation.

BASH: General Clark, you're still with us. I do want to ask you, because this whole conversation, particularly about oil and gas -- gas prices, it all stems from the way that Iran is retaliating, which is using the economic power that it has with the Strait of Hormuz there and blocking the ability for tankers to get out and order to supply the 20 percent or so of the world that it supplies oil with.

So militarily, if you were the head of SOUTHCOM or CENTCOM, or you were maybe even, you know, leading as the supreme allied commander as you once were, and the president said, what's your recommendation? What would your answer be?

CLARK: Well, obviously, you're going to continue to do diplomacy, but you're going to try to incentivize the diplomacy by showing your military strength. So, the softest way to begin this is what the U.S. has done, which is to say you're going to escort vessels in.

Now, did we get a destroyer through? Apparently, we did, but that was the early report. We haven't seen a picture of it in there. Maybe we have some unmanned vessels that have gone through and cleared the mines. Maybe we did it by helicopter. We're not sure.

But this is the softest way in. And then if the Iranians respond and its necessary, then you may do escorting by ships. And in the same time you're doing strategic reconnaissance. So you're figuring out exactly where the caverns are or the hidden missile launchers, et cetera., that are guarding the Strait of Hormuz.

Now, they can always fire a long-range cruise missiles, but its the short range that you're worried about that are coming right in for a mile or five miles away from the ship. So where are the launch points? So presumably were looking at aerial overhead. I'm, I shouldn't say this. I mean, but we do have people who go

underwater. And maybe theyre underwater looking at things right now. We have unmanned undersea vehicles that might be doing strategic reconnaissance.

[16:15:03]

So, we should be preparing for the next step on this. And this is, to my mind, a much smarter step than, say, launching a big air campaign to go after energy infrastructure all over Iran. Let's focus in on this. It's going to take a step by step effort. It may take a week, two weeks, four weeks until the Iranians realize they can't hold on to the strait at a cost they can afford.

And while doing this, we keep the negotiations going. And maybe the offers become better.

BASH: General Wesley Clark, thank you so much for being here.

The rest of my panel is going to stay with us.

Coming up, how todays strikes will impact any chance of the diplomatic solution that General Clark was referring to, one potentially between the U.S. and Iran. We're going to talk to a veteran U.S. diplomat.

Plus, what Tucker Carlson says he told the president about the Republican Party amid their very public split on the war on Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST: The neocons hate Trump, have always hated Trump. I had a first row seat to this, and -- and now, they've destroyed him. And I told him that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:35]

BASH: More now on the exchange of fire in the Strait of Hormuz, as the ceasefire between the U.S. and Iran reaches its most fragile point since it began nearly a month ago. In a phone conversation with ABC's Jonathan Karl, President Trump stopped short of saying that Iran has violated that ceasefire agreement.

Joining me now in THE ARENA to discuss is the president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Ambassador Richard Haass.

Thank you so much for being here.

What do you think about what I just reported that the president told Jon Karl that he is not saying the cease fire is over. How does that play into where you think we are right now, politically and diplomatically, never mind militarily? AMB. RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT EMERITUS, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS:

I mean, the truth is we don't quite have a ceasefire. We have a blockade. In effect, a blockade is traditionally seen as an act of war. Iran, for its part, is also carrying out a version of a blockade on the strait. Then you had the incidents you just talked about.

On the other hand, you know, we clearly do not have all out combat. So, we have something that's, low level. I think you used the word fragile, tenuous, any of those words apply.

I take this -- two things. One is I'm glad the president had a restrained reaction, because I don't see how escalation would help us. I don't see how it help anybody at this point. I don't see the logic of military escalation at this point.

And -- but secondly, this is a warning. This shows just how things could head south in a hurry. So, to me, that makes the argument that we, the diplomats better get busy because this is not a stable situation.

BASH: On that note, how realistic. I mean, we all want to be optimistic that there is a diplomatic solution here. And at the end, when there is an end, it's got to be done diplomatically. But given the sort of imbalance when it comes to the level of patience between the U.S. president and the American people, which is not a lot. And the Iranians, which historically is a lot. How do you get to that diplomatic solution?

HAASS: Well, first of all, I'm not sure it's that much of an imbalance, as you say, because the Iranian economy was in terrible shape before the war, and now it's terrible times two or three. And the blockade is really added to that.

So, I don't think time at the moment particularly favors either side. It's almost who can stand the pain longest a game of chicken. So that seems to me that both sides have, at least in principle, an argument for, for diplomacy. And I could see outcomes that would help both sides.

And also, I can see outcomes that make a lot more sense for the United States and Iran than a new round of fighting. We've had, you know, a lot of fighting. We've almost run out of targets. What's left to destroy the energy infrastructure of Iran or its neighbors? It's hard to see how anybody would be better off with that.

So, I think there's a certain logic of transitioning from where we are to diplomacy, even though, again, negotiating a deal, I don't for a minute underestimate the difficulties.

BASH: I want to go back to something that the president put on social media earlier today. He was talking about South Korea, that he reported in this platform that he believes that Iran was aiming at a South Korean vessel. And then he said, perhaps it's time for South Korea to come and join the mission. This is kind of the latest in the president making pleas, entreaties, call it what you will to get countries in the region and those who have skin in the game to come and help in the Strait of Hormuz.

Do you see that happening at all anytime soon?

HAASS: Look, there's a lot of reluctance. These countries were not consulted before this happened. So, we violated that rule of diplomacy. If you want countries in on the landing, they've got to be in on the takeoff.

But I think you've got it right. They've got skin in the game. So, what I would like to see are the Europeans and the Asian partners and others, you know, who are so dependent on energy from this part of the world, get involved potentially diplomatically. I think we could set up a new authority to help govern or run or administer the Strait of Hormuz. It cannot be Iran alone.

[16:25:00]

And then second of all, I can imagine a security dimension that once you have an agreement, you would want to have some ships not just to deal with mines and the rest, but to going down the future. You want to again have a situation where we don't have a repeat of what we have. And South Korea, given how dependent it is on regional energy, would be a natural country to think about.

BASH: And of course, just this reminder, as I like to do often, that this whole crisis in the Strait of Hormuz did not exist before the U.S. and Israel launched this war in Iran. So, you know, we're talking about getting out of the crisis again in the strait, but how much do you think Iran looks at this? I understand what you're saying about them being choked economically. The U.S. definitely hit them hard militarily on some key strikes. But if at the end of these negotiations, we're talking about some kind of coalition to help with the strait, how is that victorious for the U.S.?

BASH: The answer is it won't be if you mentioned victory by having brought about a situation that's better than what existed before. Quite honestly, we'll be lucky if we can get back to something in the same zip code as what existed before. Iran's going to have more of a role than it had. It's discovered. It actually has this powerful weapon, this control of the strait.

So, the question now is, how do we limit that? And we come up with terms, we and the neighboring countries and the those like South Korea, that import can live with. That's the challenge we have to.

But we're not going to go back to where things were before. We're going to end up in a situation, lets be blunt, where were slightly worse off. I think the critical question is, can we can we keep it to only slightly worse off?

BASH: Richard Haass, that's very candid and blunt and obviously quite true about where we are right now. Let's see what happens in the future. Thank you so much. Good to see you.

HAASS: Thank you, Dana. BASH: Coming up in THE ARENA, three little words with a big impact.

What spirit airlines is now telling a court about why it suddenly went belly up. But first, what some of the most loud voices on the right now say about where the political movement started by Donald Trump actually stands now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSWOMAN: Today, we're in a time where many Americans are realizing MAGA is dead, but MAGA died actually quite some time ago. It really did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:02]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: The neocons hate Trump. Have always hated Trump. I had a front row seat to this. And now they've destroyed him. And I told him that I said, these are people who hated you from day one. They couldn't control you. They hated you for that reason.

What you said about the Iraq war, inflamed them. It humiliated them. And they want to destroy you, and this war will destroy you.

I said that point blank, right to him. And it's true. And it's, I think, proven true now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: That's Tucker Carlson revealing what he says is a private conversation, a plea, really, that he made to President Trump before he launched the war against Iran. Carlson sat for a lengthy interview with Lulu Garcia-Navarro of "The New York Times", who pressed Carlson on some of the controversial things he has said, and also about the rift that now exists between Carlson and other members of the wing that he is a part of, maybe former MAGA wing in the Republican Party. That rift over Iran, one that speaks to that chasm. My panel is back now.

I'm going to start with you, former Republican congressman. Can you just kind of give an assessment of where you think your party really is on this war?

MEIJER: Yeah. And I'll say former congressman, not former Republican, present Republican.

BASH: Yeah, exactly. That's why I said your party.

MEIJER: Yeah. No, I think there's a number of elements of the coalition, especially those that came in more recently that are -- that see this as an opportunity to have their worst fears confirmed. I mean, you hear their voices being amplified by Marjorie Taylor Greene, by Tucker Carlson by others.

The -- to be frank, a lot of those were voices that were just kind of latching on from one thing to another. These are not folks who have a strong ideological mooring in any one place. And I think that's where you see opportunists trying to speak to that audience and trying to get out ahead of where potentially they see the party going after 2029.

The vast majority of Republicans today and this is still upheld in polling, they support Donald Trump. They, you know, they maybe wouldn't have supported the Iraq war in a vacuum. But just like there's a lot of Americans who oppose the president's efforts in Iraq or in Iran because they oppose the president, because they support Donald Trump, they support his actions.

I think the challenge is going to be the folks who are going to make the decisions and potentially swing the results of close elections in November. You know, they theyre going to be responding to rhetoric. They're going to be responding to, in some sense, the overwhelming media negativity, but they're also going to be responding to what they see and hear on the ground as that election.

BASH: He went as far in this interview with Lulu as to say that the president is a hostage. It's a word he used and that and that, you know, he was he had his basically his hands tied behind his back. He couldn't really do anything other than launch this war in Iran because of the pressures that he was feeling.

[16:35:01]

MEIJER: Which is a handy way of both playing into a lot of antisemitic tropes about puppetry, and then also absolving the president, who these folks supported or at least used to, of any responsibility. Donald Trump is absolutely nobody's puppet. This is a guy who gets for his inauguration ball plays "My Way" by Frank Sinatra.

I mean, he is the most high agency individual in the country at the moment, and he is somebody who also believes that you can just do things that may not always work out well, but this is not somebody who is sitting there bashful, as much as Tucker Carlson may want to just continue criticizing without offering any, you know, idea of what should happen.

BASH: And kudos, I know you want to jump in on that, but kudos to Lulu because she pressed him on that idea of, of feeding into antisemitic tropes by saying, you know, that he's a puppet of the -- of Israel, basically. And he claimed, oh, I don't -- I don't know anything about that. I just believe in the United States of America. And I want to do what's right for America.

WILLIAMS: No, that's all I wanted to add. I mean, that that sentence after he is a hostage specifically mentions Benjamin Netanyahu and his agents in the United States or something like that, which was, I think, not a dog whistle. I think a vuvuzela, sort of speaking to --

MEIJER: Not just on the right, but across the spectrum. WILLIAMS: Oh, I'm not -- I'm not saying --

BASH: It's time --

WILLIAMS: -- to the right. There's no question about that.

I think what I find so fascinating about this, and what seems like this bit of a rift is what took so long about it. Like, I recognize that the president is immensely popular with a big portion of his. Maybe you can speak to this too, Peter, but immensely popular with a big portion of his base. But a lot of what made Donald Trump the candidate the first time around was this aversion to many in the right to endless wars and Iraq and endless spending and so on.

And I'm just surprised it took until 2026 deep into his second term for that to sort of become a big voice among Republicans.

OLSZEWSKI: Not a puppet, but a salesman and a hell of a salesman, probably more of a snake oil salesman. And what you're seeing, though, is that he promised to not take us into wars. He promised to lower costs. He promised to release the Epstein files.

And I think what you're seeing is people are realizing those promises are being broken. And so, I feel like that's one of the things that we're witnessing with MTG, with Tucker Carlson, with parts of that base. Granted, there are large elements of the Republican Party that still support this president, but I think people are really seeing that they were sold a bill of goods that this president is not able to fully deliver on, as he was trying to return to the White House.

BASH: Well, you mentioned MTG. Let's listen to a little bit more of what she said over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREENE: Today, we're in a time where many Americans are realizing MAGA is dead. But MAGA died actually quite some time ago. It really did.

MAGA went from being words, words and promises. But when it came time to put it into real action, the actions is what killed it. And do you want to know who took the actions to kill MAGA? It was the creator and the founder himself, Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: I'm not so sure about that because one of the most true things that President Trump has said recently is I am MAGA and MAGA is me.

CALDWELL: Yeah.

BASH: And I don't know that that's changed very much.

CALDWELL: It doesn't seem to have changed in polling. I really appreciate the polling that kind of separates the Republican respondents and the MAGA respondents and -- or the self-declared MAGA respondents. BASH: Say as much as that's even separatable.

CALDWELL: Right. Yeah, but the people who identify as MAGA seem to be fully in line still with the president. And because they do believe that the president is MAGA, as the president says. So, whatever, as the former congressman was saying, he says goes.

But what's interesting is, you know, everyone for years has said Trump will always have that 33 percent approval in support of the base, which is polling to be absolutely true. He still does have that faction of the base. What's interesting is what's happening to young people who did identify with this kind of MAGA, pro-Trump manosphere movement seem to be kind of pulling away from the president in this moment.

And I think even though were having a conversation about MAGA right now the people who elect, people into office are independent voters as well. And that Washington Post/ABC News poll showed that just a quarter percent -- a quarter of independent voters are still with the president right now.

BASH: That was fascinating.

WILLIAMS: Isn't -- isn't the true test of what MAGA is and its longevity, 2028, not 2026. When Donald Trump is no longer a candidate for president, presumably and, and is just -- whether it's a movement or whether its a movement tied to one man, I think you can only really answer that question in 2028, even -- even this year, it's still an open question as to whether, as a MAGA, whether MAGA movement tied to Donald Trump, because he's still around, he's still president with an election going on.

[16:40:02]

MEIJER: Yeah. I mean, we say MAGA as if it's some syllables. I mean, it's Make America Great Again. It's a forward-looking vision. It's something that places a primacy on self-sufficiency, on kind of economic flourishing, on reindustrialization, on a lot of things that the president has been working pretty hard on.

And frankly, a lot of successes that don't get talked about because they're about Pax Silica. And what Jacob Helberg is doing over there, or it's about the, you know, critical mineral stockpiles that we're building with our allies. Like there's a lot of good things going on that aren't being talked about. But I want to touch on what Marjorie Taylor Greene was saying.

I mean, these are not folks who have a set stock of policy commitments that they want to usher in. It is folks who see a great slogan and want to try to commandeer that and define it going forward.

BASH: Right. But just to kind of push on that, one of the arguments that Tucker Carlson is making, which I think has some resonance, is that on the issue of foreign policy, one of the reasons why the young people and others really even maybe some who otherwise would consider themselves Democrats 10 years ago or even, you know, six years ago was that they like the fact that he said, no more wars.

MEIJER: No, because in their conception, the wars that were talking about, endless wars, I mean, it's Iraq, Afghanistan, wars that last for decades. And what do we get at the end except a loss of a lot of blood and a lot of treasure?

I mean, I still think back to the president's successful operation in Venezuela, you know, the approval of that in the U.S. tracks Trump's approval. It's around 40 percent. The approval of that operation in Venezuela is at 80 percent.

So just because the approval may be low domestically, that doesn't necessarily have a bearing on the ultimate success, nor how history will remember it.

BASH: I do, before we end this conversation or leave this conversation, I want to play another part of Lulu's interview, and that is pushing Tucker Carlson on whether or not he really thinks President Trump is the antichrist.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You've been talking on your show about whether Trump is the antichrist.

CARLSON: I have not said that.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: On your show, the day after Easter, you noted he did not put his hand on the Bible during his swearing in ceremony as president.

CARLSON: Correct.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You said and I'm quoting maybe he didn't put his hand on the bible because he affirmatively rejects what's inside that book. And then on a recent show, you went further, saying, here's a leader who's mocking the gods of his ancestors, mocking the god of gods and exalting himself above them. Could this be the antichrist?

CARLSON: I actually did not say, could this be the antichrist?

CARLSON: Could this be the antichrist? Well, who knows?

CARLSON: I don't know where that comes from, but I know that those words never left my lips because I'm not sure I fully understand what the antichrist is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: And then he continued to be, you know, sort of theoretical and theological and saying, nobody knows really what the antichrist is. But he said it, and that was something that, you know, we all heard and we all remember. We replayed it over and over again.

It's interesting that some of the people who he really criticized, who oftentimes fight back, like Ted Cruz didn't say a lot, but on this, he retweeted some of the comments that people were making like this one. Tucker Carlson caught flat out lying about calling Trump the antichrist on his show.

CALDWELL: Yeah, there was that moment with Ted Cruz on Tucker Carlson's show about six months ago after the bombing of the Iranian nuclear sites, where -- where Ted Cruz, they got in an argument over Iran, which I thought was a really defining moment not only for Tucker Carlson, but also for Ted Cruz and his perhaps future political ambitions, depending on where everything is going. But, there's a huge rift in this party right now, and that is exemplary of it.

BASH: Yeah. And also a lot of personalities and personal --

CALDWELL: Yeah.

BASH: Personal rifts.

Don't go anywhere. Ahead in THE ARENA. Something you really don't see every day. Look at that. A completely empty airport terminal. There was a shutdown of that airline, Spirit Airlines.

We'll talk about it after the break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The airline stranded thousands of passengers at airports with no employees manning any of the check in desks. Spirit said they were proud they were still maintaining their normal level of service.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:48:49]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's horrible, you know, and I thought they will have a deal. Trump said that. And in the end, nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope the people who have created this inconvenience for people like myself, you know, they should ask God for forgiveness. I mean, this is terrible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you're purchasing something cheaper, it comes at a cost. And the cost is, I guess also that the airline might shut down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: In the middle of the night, Spirit Airlines did just that -- shut down, leaving passengers like those you just heard from stranded. Thousands of employees without jobs. Spirit Airlines has been in serious financial trouble for a while now. The company filed for bankruptcy twice before announcing in February it had reached a deal with its creditors.

But three days later, the war in Iran started sending the price of jet fuel soaring. The Trump administration was in talks to bail out the budget airline, but ultimately decided to pass. Its the first time in 25 years a major U.S. airline has gone out of business due to financial problems.

CNN aviation correspondent Pete Muntean joins the panel now.

Pete, what do you think the impact is going to be?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, the impact here is a bit broader than Spirit Airlines. This is kind of the end of the ULCC, the ultra-low cost carriers that came about in the early aughts and really ushered in a change that was everything is extra on the airlines, as so many airlines want up brand Delta and United got great success with charging folks for premium seats on better routes.

Spirit went the other direction, and I just looked up how long it has been since Spirit posted a profit. Seven full years, it did not show a profit. So, this was doomed for a long, long time. And there's been a lot of pushback from the Trump administration here, essentially deflecting with some red meat, putting a lot of blame on transportation -- then Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and the Department of Justice under the Biden administration for not approving a merger with JetBlue and Spirit Airlines.

That was announced back in 2022. It fell apart because of DOJ pressure back in 2024. This is really interesting that they keep bringing this up. Some revisionist history here and something that the Biden administration -- the Trump administration, really wants to pin on the Biden administration.

We will see here, though, you know, there's so much pressure now on employees trying to figure out how they'll continue to get their benefits, their retirements. A lot of passengers left in the lurch. Thankfully, many major airlines stepped up and made it so that so many passengers were talking. Tens of thousands, if not more over this weekend, at least in the immediate were stranded because of this last minute, 3:00 a.m. shutdown early on Saturday.

So many people have gotten to where they need to go. Thankfully, due to the other airlines, we will see if other airlines will also step in and take over some of Spirit's routes. A lot remains to be seen here, but there is a pretty big void now left by Spirit Airlines, often the punching bag of late-night comedians.

BASH: Yeah. All right, Pete, thanks. Don't go anywhere because our panel is still here.

Congressman, was that the right call for the Trump administration to say, no, we're not going to bail you out.

OLSZEWSKI: We know this is a troubled airline. And so, I'm not going to second guess the Trump administration for not bailing them out. But they wouldn't need the bailout if it weren't for the war that doubled the cost of jet fuel. That has 17,000 employees and related individuals who are now out of work and scrambling for their livelihoods.

We wouldn't have, you know, thousands of Americans trying to figure out how to get to their destinations. And so, I won't second-guess that. But, you know, not only should we not be in this position, we also I have problems with the Trump administration criticizing the merger because if that had gone through, we could be in a situation where we lost two airlines and even more routes, you know, had the JetBlue infrastructure been merged with Spirit.

So, I -- again, I don't want to second-guess the decision not to bail them out, but what I can say is this is a situation that Trump administration absolutely created. And now Americans continue to deal with the outfall of it.

MEIJER: I take issue -- well, I take issue with a lot of that, but I take issue, especially with the idea that looking back to that failed 2024 merger and the Biden administration stepping in, specifically Lina Khan stepping in along with state A.G.s to offer a lot of pressure and to push that, you know, past the brink of sustainability, that that is somehow revisionist history.

I mean, yes, this was clearly the last nail in the coffin. They were financially struggling. They weren't doing the fuel hedging that other airlines do, and for cost controls. And that was something that caught them unawares when this war kicked off in Iran. But the idea that being that -- not being able to combine with a similar airline back in 2024, that could have strengthened their balance sheets, that could have given them more flexibility. That is not revisionist history in any way, shape or form. That is, that is analyzing and doing an autopsy of bankruptcy.

BASH: Here's something that is in history. It's current events, and that is where the jet fuel prices are right now. And were going to put up on the screen. You're going to see in very vivid terms the spike that I think we all know. But this actually puts data on it, Elliot.

WILLIAMS: No, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, this is we've talked -- this is the third block of this program in which we've talked about the real impact of jet prices, the fuel prices. And it sort of is one of the many factors, along the ones that you're talking about that led to Spirit Airlines going away.

You know, I would caution everyone who might be joking about or celebrating the end of Spirit Airlines to recognize that fewer airlines means more problems for more higher costs for Americans.

You know, this --

MEIJER: Less competition.

WILLIAMS: It's less competition. Had they frankly, and ill say, had they merged back in 2024, that would have been probably worse for Americans as well, because it's fewer airlines. And you are -- we all know you, just -- it's basic economics. Prices are going to go up in airfares when you take an airline away and it's going to happen.

CALDWELL: Yes. This is probably something that Congress is going to look into and see where it goes next.

[16:55:04]

It's ultimately a decision by the administration not to -- not to interfere. And there will probably be some post-mortems about it.

BASH: All right. Everybody, thank you so much.

Pete Muntean, thank you.

Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.