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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Rubio Meets Pope Leo As Trump Continues Attacks On Pontiff; Source: Iran Expected To Respond To U.S. Proposal Today; Court Leans Toward Kelly Over Hegseth In Free Speech Fight. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired May 07, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: -- you beat that?
[16:00:01]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: What are we going to do for the next 10 seconds that we got?
KEILAR: I'm going to dream of butter.
SANCHEZ: Butter.
KEILAR: Butter with my name on it. Butter with some herbs in it. Compound butter, they call it.
SANCHEZ: What do you do with the cone?
KEILAR: I don't know. You just -- you eat it.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. I'm Kasie Hunt.
It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday.
Today, Marco Rubio takes center stage. But can he end an historic feud between two of the most powerful men in the world? The secretary of state meeting with Pope Leo today at the Vatican after weeks of open tension between the pontiff and President Donald Trump over the war with Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not -- I'm not a fan of Pope Leo.
POPE LEO XIV, CATHOLIC CHURCH: I have no fear of the Trump administration, nor of speaking out loudly about the message of the gospel.
TRUMP: Pope Leo said things that are wrong. He was very much against what I'm doing with -- with regard to Iran. POPE LEO: Woe to those who manipulate religion and the very name of
God for their own military, economic or political gain.
TRUMP: As far as the pope is concerned, it's very simple. Whether I make him happy or I don't make him happy, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That public back and forth unavoidable today, as Secretary Rubio, who's a devout Catholic, met the first American pope. But some progress may have been made. In a statement following the meeting, the Vatican said this, quote, "The shared commitment to cultivate good bilateral relations was renewed," end quote.
As a sign of goodwill, the two men exchanged gifts. Rubio gave the pope a glass football paperweight. I assume it was an American football. The -- Pope Leo's gift? Well, it was pretty on the nose. It's a literal olive branch carved into a pen.
This high-stakes mission comes following another moment in the spotlight for Rubio. You may remember his handling of the White House press briefing earlier this week. That was on Tuesday.
One piece of it particularly stood out. It was his answer to a question about his hope for the country and how he answered it underscored that one big question -- is Marco Rubio, the shadow frontrunner for the 2028 Republican nomination for president?
The video his team uploaded to social media sure makes it look like he wants to be.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What is your hope for America at a time such as this?
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: My hope for America? My hope for America is what it's always been. I think it's the hope I hope we all share. We wanted to continue to be the place where anyone from anywhere can achieve anything, where you're not limited by the circumstances of your birth, by the color of your skin, by your ethnicity. But frankly, it's a place where you are able to overcome challenges and achieve your full potential.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA.
My panel is here. CNN contributor, host of "The New York Times'" "The Interview", Lulu Garcia-Navarro; managing editor of "The Cook Political Report", Carrie Dann; CNN political commentator Paul Begala; and former Trump White House communications director, Mike Dubke.
Welcome to all of you. Thank you so much for being here.
Lulu, I couldn't help but notice in that video, which is a campaign video, I'm sorry, if Paul has made many, I think --
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Donald Trump is at the center of it.
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, yes.
HUNT: Right? Which perhaps, you know, good internal -- good personal politics.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Good personal politics, and also good, good politics, full stop, I think, right? Because Donald Trump is the head of the party and Donald Trump still has the base. And so, if he wants to be the heir, the thing that he is inheriting is presumably Donald Trump's voters. And so therefore, that makes sense.
Very stirring. I saw a lot of commentary on it specifically because those aren't words that Donald Trump himself would have used, right? That this is a place where any race, any ethnicity can come and make, you know, make a, you know, get -- they'll be able to capture the American dream. So, it was interesting. It was an interesting thing to put out I thought.
HUNT: For sure. And I mean, Carrie Dan, one of the things that of course, his visit to the Vatican underscores in as we have this whole kind of broader conversation about where he stands in the political landscape, is that Catholic voters, right, have shifted dramatically away from President Trump as this feud has continued.
And can you talk a little bit about kind of the data that you see, the information that we know about, where those voters who for years voted Democrat and have recently swung to be more conservative, have responded to, you know, a president with a 36-something percent approval rating, attacking a pope with a 60-plus percent approval rating?
CARRIE DANN, MANAGING EDITOR, COOK POLITICAL REPORT: Yeah. And Catholic voters are a very complex bloc. They're not like white evangelicals who have been with the president since day one.
[16:05:03]
They are voters who broke for narrowly for Joe Biden, himself a Catholic, in 2020. Then they broke for Donald Trump by a significant margin in the last election. And then that support has swiftly eroded. There was some "Washington Post" polling this week showing that white Catholics who broke for Trump by 20 points are now about even.
So, he's lost a significant amount of ground with a group that used to be his base. And the reason that this bloc is so complicated is there's two main issues that I think there's a big difference on the faith-based beliefs of American Catholics and the president. The big one is immigration, right? There's a lot of Catholic teaching around Jesus as the stranger and
treating him as a refugee and reaching out to these communities. Donald Trump has certainly not exactly embraced that kind of idea.
HUNT: Right.
DANN: And also on abortion is another place where Catholicism is very complicated. Church teaching is that abortion is wrong. But 6 in 10 American Catholics still think it should be legal. The president is in a very gray area.
So, I think it's very interesting that Marco Rubio was the person he chose, not J.D. Vance, also a Catholic, to go to Rome.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, I think Marco Rubio, though, because Marco Rubio is Latino. And of course, one of the biggest groups in the American Catholic community are the Latinos. And that is the group that has really swung hard against the president that in 2024 went towards the president.
So that particular group, you know, Rubio has a lot -- not just the Cubans, my community, but, you know, writ large. Rubio is popular with the Latino community.
HUNT: Mike Dubke, what's your assessment of this? In fact, here, let's play Donald Trump. This is something Trump himself encourages right behind the scenes, right? He'll ask people that are close to him.
MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: All the time.
HUNT: Who's up? Who's down? Do you like what he's doing? Do you like what that guy is doing?
DUBKE: What do you think about this?
HUNT: Yeah.
DUBKE: You know nothing about Ukraine, but what do you think today? Yeah.
HUNT: So, let's watch how the president has answered when he is asked about J.D. Vance being the heir apparent, because that has sort of been a widespread operating assumption, kind of out there in the ether since he was selected as Trump's vice president in this second term. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: Do you view Vice President J.D. Vance as your successor, the Republican nominee in 2028?
TRUMP: No, but he's very capable. I mean, I don't think that it -- you know, I think you have a lot of very capable people. So far, I think he's doing a fantastic job. It's too early. BAIER: Right.
TRUMP: We're just starting.
REPORTER: Do you agree that the heir apparent to MAGA is J.D. Vance?
TRUMP: Well, I think most likely. In all fairness, he's the vice president. I think Marco is also somebody that maybe would get together with J.D. in some form.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: I don't know about -- I don't know about that right now.
DUBKE: I mean, you know, six months ago, I think that was August of '25. I mean, there was this kind of buddy shtick that was going on between Marco Rubio and J.D. Vance because they weren't going to run against each other. And they talked about this.
I think they are two likely frontrunners for this -- for this race. In terms of the -- in terms of the, of American Catholics and getting back to that, I mean, the fastest growing group that's joining the Catholic Church is the Latino community. But the second fastest growing group are these conservative men, converts like J.D. Vance, who are looking for, what's the quote, objective truth? Well, no, there's like --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Objective truth, right, yeah.
DUBKE: Objective truth. So, you've got both of these communities kind of verging on the on the Catholic Church. So, it is a little interesting.
I believe J.D. Vance did meet with the pope earlier -- earlier this year. And now, you've got Rubio.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And it was chilly and it wasn't warm.
DUBKE: Right.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And with Rubio, it was.
DUBKE: It seemed to be a bit.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'll also say Rubio is America's top diplomat. So, one would hope that it would be a little warmer than J.D. Vance.
HUNT: Yeah. Paul?
BEGALA: You think. But Rubio, he does embody the war. He's our national security adviser as well as our secretary of state. The Holy Father has spoken out very powerfully against that war. I think that's a problem.
And I think -- I think President Trump, he -- you're right. He won all Hispanics by 20 points. Hispanics have been with the winner of every presidential election in my career. Okay? I'm Catholic.
We swing and go with the winner. And they went larger for Trump than anybody I've ever seen. And he has squandered that. I think he just doesn't understand what he's gotten into by picking a fight with the Holy Father.
Catholics revere their holy father. I -- wait here, I can do it. I carry John Paul, who was a conservative pope. I carry his image with me all the time on my keychain. It also opens beers. But --
HUNT: Wait, I'm sorry. You have a --
BEGALA: The Holy Father --
HUNT: -- a bottle opener Holy Father keychain on your pocket.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And that is very Catholic.
BEGALA: It's very Catholic.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: That is very, very Catholic. We drink wine at our ceremony, right?
BEGALA: As a liberal, I revered this conservative pope. I name my son after him, got to meet him twice. And many, many conservatives revered this more liberal pope. Trump doesn't understand this at all.
And Marco does. And Secretary Rubio and be respectful and good for him. But the president has squandered this enormous gift of support with the war, with his stance on immigration, with his savage cuts to foreign aid and feeding the poor.
[16:10:05]
It's essential to Catholic social teaching. So it's been a political tragedy for Mr. Trump.
HUNT: Yeah. So, let's get -- let's bring in CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb. He's in Rome for us.
And, Christopher, thank you so much for being here.
I was hoping you might be able to weigh in from your vantage point on some of the aspects of this conversation that we've been having here. It's been noted that J.D. Vance had perhaps a chillier meeting than Rubio did with the pope, even considering all of the back and forth between the president and the pope in recent weeks and months.
What stood out to you? What did you see play out today?
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, thank you.
Yeah, I think it was interesting that, you know, the pope and Secretary of State Rubio had quite a long meeting. It was more than 45 minutes, we're told. And Rubio was in the Vatican for, you know, 2-1/2 hours, which is a long time by Vatican standards. And you should point out that, the popes normally meet heads of state or heads of government. They don't normally meet the top diplomats or foreign ministers of a country.
So, the Vatican made an exception to for the pope to meet for such a long time with Secretary Rubio. I think that does underline the concern the Vatican have about the tensions between the Trump administration and the papacy.
And, of course, you know, there are still a lot of disagreements. The Vatican communique said, you know, we had an exchange of views, which is diplomatic code for, you know, we didn't agree, and also talking about trying to, you know, essentially rebuild or renew the relationship between, the administration and the papacy, which suggests, you know, things had gotten bad in terms of how they saw things.
So, I mean, I think this was, broadly speaking, a positive thing for the Vatican and for the Trump administration in terms of their relationship. But it all depends on what happens next. Will the president continue to criticize the pope?
One thing that is really kind of extraordinary to me is that we have the first American pope in the Catholic Church's 2,000-year history, and there has been, as far as we are aware, no contact between the president of the United States and the first American pope. There hasn't even been a phone call, at least as far as we know.
And I think that is why the Vatican was so keen to have this meeting with Secretary Rubio to establish some form of diplomatic channel. You know, my question is, could there be some kind of contact between Trump and the pope? That -- that I think is still outstanding.
HUNT: It is wild when you put it put it that way, especially because, you know, I mean, we know that the pope is a baseball fan. I keep getting corrected because I've accidentally said he's a Cubs fan. He's not. He's a White Sox fan. Just to put a finer point on it before anybody starts sending me emails.
But, Christopher, I guess my question for you as somebody who's seen this for a long time, I mean, we've talked a lot about how from a political perspective here at home, in many ways, Pope Leo is in the catbird seat, right? Not the president of the United States. He's the one who's popular, as opposed to the president. Does the Vatican view this as a problem that they have to solve, that they have this tension with the American president, or is it something that they feel they can tolerate?
LAMB: Well, I think there are two things happening. One, I think the Vatican is perturbed that the president of the United States is criticizing Pope Leo so openly. I think the Vatican doesn't really know what to do about that, bluntly speaking. And, you know, we heard from Cardinal Parolin, the top diplomat, saying this is all very strange. These criticisms that are being leveled against the pope.
At the same time, I think they recognize that the attacks by President Trump on Pope Leo have elevated the pope in a way. They've put the world's attention on what the pope is doing and what he's saying. Look, in the first few months of Leo's papacy, he was quite low key. There wasn't a huge amount in terms of initiatives or things that he was saying that were breaking through to people.
But it was the war in Iran. And then the president's criticisms of him that have kind of raised Leo's profile. So, there is, I think, a plus side for the Vatican in all of this, too.
HUNT: Perhaps, you know, I mean, Donald Trump has certainly lived by the axiom all press is good press, no matter what is being said about you.
Christopher, thank you. Stand by, if you will.
I want to bring our political panel back here because we just have this new sound in from Kevin McCarthy, former speaker of the House, had a lot of up and down in his political career on his own, but also, of course, in terms of his relationship with Trump.
But he was asked about this question about Marco Rubio and who exactly is the frontrunner right now in 2024? We thought his answer was interesting. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MODERATOR: Where are the brains in the administration on whom you two are relying for advising the president on what to do about the future? Start with you, Speaker.
KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Look, I think Jamieson Greer is fabulous, and he's been around before. He's brilliant on this.
I think Bessent has impressed everybody, has he not? Youve got to use that mechanism.
And I'm going to give two people or I do three more. You may know one -- Marco Rubio. That guy can do anything. The memes are right. The press conference.
But when they asked him the question, there's -- he answers it from the soul of America, I think really captures it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Soul of America. What do you think?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, if you're betting Marco Rubio is the establishment candidate -- I mean, I've sat on this panel many times and all the people to the right are always sort of talking up Marco Rubio and looking at J.D. Vance a little less enthusiastically, why?
Marco Rubio is a known quantity. He's been a senator. He has you know, deep relationships not only with Susie Wiles, but, you know, with that whole Florida cabal. I always say that --
HUNT: There's the word for it.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: A lot of -- yeah. I get to say it because they're my people.
But, you know, so he -- he really understands the way Washington works at the same time, you know, he speaks to, I think, a new, friendlier face of the right. He is Hispanic.
HUNT: Paul Begala, the question or the thing I keep coming back to about Marco Rubio and I have covered him for years. I covered his 2016 campaign on the ground in Iowa. I interviewed him many times. He -- not every political candidate or, you know, athlete of whatever type gets better, right? Like not all of them show a capacity to improve.
And it seems like Rubio has really, you know, the candidate that he was in 2016, his campaign was actually pretty good. It obviously had some flaws. He had a lot to learn. But the, the, the, the place to which he has come now seems like a markedly different one in a way that shows perhaps he could be a threat to Democrats in a presidential.
BEGALA: Oh, yeah. As a Democrat, I'd much rather run against J.D. Vance than Marco Rubio. Okay, J.D. -- I'm sorry. He's charmless. He's an oaf. He's not getting any better.
He got into Yale up on some kind of Hillbilly DEI or something, but he doesn't impress me. Bring it on.
Marco? Very different. And believe me, he's running. My partner, Carville has this wonderful saying. Maybe not appropriate for afternoon television, running for president.
HUNT: You have a bottle opener.
BEGALA: Yeah, I do, I -- running for president.
DUBKE: It's a opener. Let's just be clear about that.
HUNT: I'm sorry. Says what?
BEGALA: Running for president is like having sex. You don't do it just once and say I'm good no more. He's running again.
HUNT: Okay.
DUBKE: You're right. That wasn't appropriate for television.
HUNT: On that note, we are going to thank our Vatican correspondent, Christopher Lamb. Thank you, Christopher.
The rest of our panel is going to stand by. We'll see if we can -- I don't know -- top that moment as this hour goes on.
Coming up in THE ARENA, new developments on several fronts in the president's campaign for retribution, a court battle with a senator pushing to prosecute a leading Democrat, and new comments from former special counsel Jack Smith and what he thinks will happen to him if the president gets his way.
But first, Iran keeping the U.S. on hold. The latest on the war, with Tehran expected to respond today to the latest peace proposal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, LATE NIGHT HOST: Reportedly, Trump is ready to sign a one page memorandum of understanding that sets a framework for a more detailed nuclear negotiations later. So, it's a single sheet of paper, which is a letter of intent to eventually outline the idea of what you might agree to some other time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:23:17]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back.
The waiting game continues. Iran says it's still reviewing a proposal from the U.S. that, if agreed to, could end the war. One source in the region tells CNN that mediators do expect to hear back from Tehran sometime today. In the meantime, traffic in the Strait of Hormuz has essentially stopped after Iran released new rules for ships that want to travel through that waterway.
Joining us now in THE ARENA, CNN's senior military analyst, former supreme allied commander of NATO, Admiral James Stavridis. He has a new book out "2084: A Novel of Future War".
Having read the first in this series, I have to say I'm excited to read this one, Admiral. I commend the previous one, although, I mean, I found that it would keep me up at night if I focused too much on it. Congratulations on the next installment.
Can you tell us a little bit about your view of this, this proposal? It's this one-page memo. Does it, would it if signed, represent progress. Do you think they are going to get where they need to go on it.
ADMIRAL JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), CNN SENIOR MILITARY ANALYST: Well, life is compared to what and compared to missiles flying two three weeks ago before the current ceasefire, this is good. And at a minimum, it would kind of memorialize a 30-day ceasefire. And I thought Stephen Colbert had it exactly right to get to the next step to get to the conversation, to finally open it up.
Winston Churchill, world's most quotable man, said, it's better to talk, talk, talk than war, war, war. So, in that sense, it's good.
But what I worry about, Kasie, is this at the same time, the Iranians, you can kind of feel them really getting their grip into the Strait of Hormuz.
[16:25:04] As an international community, we can't permit that to happen. They can't be allowed to have veto rights over this strait at any time. So those are two quick thoughts.
HUNT: So, the strait itself, "The Washington Post", is out with a story today. And this afternoon actually, and the headline says this U.S. intelligence says Iran can outlast Trump's Hormuz blockade for months, a confidential intelligence community assessment delivered to the White House also finds that Iran retains a substantial missile and drone arsenal.
What do you make of this intelligence assessment, and what does it tell us about what the administration needs to do?
STAVRIDIS: Well, first, if that's accurate, that is good on the CIA speaking truth to power. That is not welcome news in the White House. But that's what a good intelligence agency does. It tells the truth no matter consequence.
If it's true it's kind of discouraging that the Iranians still have that much combat power left. I would have put that number at 50 percent at the max, maybe left here, that they've got still, 70 or 80 percent is discouraging.
In terms of how long they can last out the blockade, they're an authoritarian state, to say the least. They don't care about if their population is starving, they can last a long time.
On the other hand, there are real economic and geological consequences to shutting down their oil. That's what I continue to watch. I think that's the real pressure point for the Iranians.
But bottom line, Kasie, I -- I think you and I talked about this a few weeks ago. I continue to believe there's kind of a two in three chance called 65 percent, we get to a negotiated conclusion here. We'll park in a sidecar, the nuclear conversation for later. That's okay. It's at the bottom of a shaft.
And let's get the strait open. The Iranians will extract some resources to do that. But that at least will get us back in the game of moving the global economy. I think that's how this lands.
HUNT: You have a new opinion piece out today, and you argue this, that Gulf tankers will need protection, peace deal or not. And you walk through some of the experience you had, which I know we've talked about here on this show in the 1980s. And you say partway through this op-ed that we would need to realize that this mission that we're going to have to undertake would not be a bloodless mission.
What do you mean by all of that?
STAVRIDIS: Mines principally. There are going to be mines floating in those waters. Even if the Iranians come to the table and say, yes, the strait is open, you still have to worry about the mines, and then you've got to worry about Iranian duplicity, kind of backing on the engagement, sabotage, terrorism against tankers. So, the bottom line is we're going to have to plan on escorting
tankers and continuing to mine-sweep the main channel, I would say, for months to come, to keep the confidence of the mariners up.
As you know, I've been through this strait on warships, dozens and dozens of times. Its a tricky navigational passage when you add in worries about all the potential things that could go wrong, you're going to need escorts.
Final thought, Kasie, here's something good. The French have moved their nuclear powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle down into the Red Sea. They're bringing escorts. I think the Europeans are warming up to the idea of participating. That's one way we could put less burden on our very stretched navy.
HUNT: Yeah. All right, fair enough.
Admiral James Stavridis, always great to have your expertise on the show, sir. Thank you so much for being here.
STAVRIDIS: Thanks, Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Come up next here in THE ARENA, President Trump going after more Democrats today, including the Party's leader in the House. Why he's calling for Hakeem Jeffries to be prosecuted?
Plus, Senator Mark Kelly says he expects his free speech court battle with the Pentagon to go all the way to the Supreme Court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): This administration has bullied and coerced the press, private companies and universities. The list goes on. But in this case, the president and the secretary of defense picked the wrong guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:33:56]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: According to them, anytime a retired veteran says something that the secretary of defense doesn't like, they can be punished. So, the people who have given the most in service to this country wouldn't be free to say what they believe. It's absurd and it's outrageous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Democratic senator and retired navy captain, Mark Kelly, pushing back against the Trump administration outside of a federal appeals court today where a panel of judges heard arguments in defense -- Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's bid to demote Kelly and reduce his pay over the senator's role in that controversial video posted last fall, where he and five other Democratic lawmakers reminded service members they can refuse to follow illegal orders. The Pentagon says that message amounts to, quote, "counseling disobedience."
The majority of judges in this did not appear to be buying it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JUDGE FLORENCE PAN: These are people who served their country. Many of them put their lives on the line.
[16:35:01]
And you're saying that they have to give up their retired status in order to say something. That is a textbook example taught at West Point and the Naval Academy that you can disobey illegal orders.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz joins us now.
Katelyn, what else did we hear today?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, this was largely Kasie, about what someone like Mark Kelly, the senator, Democratic senator from Arizona, a former navy captain, can say publicly about the military and does his First Amendment rights have limits now that he is a retiree when he's commenting publicly. This is all about he and five other members of Congress putting out a video statement back in November saying that members of the military could and should disobey unlawful orders coming from above, where there's been a lot of criticism of the Trump administration.
In court today, though, this was the Justice Department arguing that actually they should have executive power. The Pentagon should have a lot more authority, and there should be not the same level of protections for retired service members that there are for the rest of the general public. The government lawyer, the lawyer for the Justice Department, his name is John Bailey. He argued at one point in the hearing that the First Amendment, he said it's going to function differently whenever there is a retiree of the military speaking in a way that could impact the discipline or how troops are following orders.
So, they're trying to say this is an issue squarely that Mark Kelly could be censured for. Here's a little bit more from the exchange between John Bailey and Florence Pan, one of the judges on the three- judge panel.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DOJ: Your Honor, I've said several times that context matters. If he wants to go teach a course at Annapolis and deliver abstract legal education, we encourage that.
PAN: OK, I think you're just evading my question. DOJ: Well, Your Honor, context matters, so I can't answer this.
PAN: Okay. This very context.
DOJ: Okay.
PAN: If Senator Kelly wants to tell active duty officers do not obey illegal orders -- you think he has to separate from the military, give up his retirement pay, give up his rank?
DOJ: The pattern of conduct that were talking about here? Absolutely. Again --
PAN: So your answer is yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
POLANTZ: Now, Judge Pan's a Biden appointee. There's also an Obama appointee on that panel. Both of them were pretty skeptical of the Justice Department's arguments here.
There's a different judge who was appointed by George H.W. Bush, who was a little bit more receptive to some of the government's arguments. But this is a case -- it's not just about the Constitution and the First Amendment. Mark Kelly's attorney said in court, this is about retaliation against people who are criticizing the president, especially if they're members of Congress -- Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Katelyn Polantz for us -- Katelyn, thank you very much for that reporting. Our panel is here to weigh in.
Lulu, I mean, this -- it seems like first of all, clearly, Mark Kelly is also running for president. Just to continue the theme of today's conversation.
DUBKE: I think only the pope is not.
(LAUGHTER)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Although the pope could run for president.
HUNT: I mean, the pope would probably win like -- but I mean, this is -- this is a case where you're seeing a lot of the threads tie together, right? Donald Trump continuing to campaign against his opponents using the system, right, taking these arguments kind of as far as he can possibly push them. And, you know, frankly, in some ways, handing Kelly a way to, to campaign for whatever it is he wants to do next.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, to continue the theme, it has raised Mark Kelly's profile as it has the pope's. So, it is beneficial for Mark Kelly to be seen as a victim in this.
I'll also say, Mark Kelly is not just, you know, a combat veteran, a member of Congress. He's also a former astronaut. This is one of our real American heroes. Whether you agree with his politics or not. So it is, as I often say here, baffling to me as a political matter,
to choose him as the avatar for this, when quite frankly, anyone looking at this will say, you know, maybe I don't agree with what Mark Kelly said there. Maybe I thought it was in bad taste, but take away his pension sort of absolutely censure him when he's no longer, you know, part of the military anymore. That seems extreme.
DUBKE: Well, the setup, the setup of the original video that was done by the -- by the members of Congress was done exactly to pick at the president and pick at Secretary Hegseth. And it worked to perfection because they bid on it. And not only did they raise everybody's profile, although I think the other four are really upset. They haven't raised as much money as Senator Kelly.
But the fact that it's been going on for this long, they've dragged it out. And Secretary Hegseth has really dragged it out with trying to take away their rank.
[16:40:06]
Do you think it's dumb, though?
DUBKE: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I'm sorry, that was a direct answer to your question. I-- maybe I was too shocked. I'm new to this program.
HUNT: It's actually perfect, Mike. You fit right in. It's great.
Paul, what do you think?
BEGALA: It elevates Senator Kelly as a Democratic candidate against Mr. Trump. I -- for all my life or all ten years I've been trying to see a strategy behind President Trump. I don't think there is one. I think there's sort of vengeance and impulses and emotion. But all he's doing is helping Kelly and all that. Those former military and national security leaders did in that tape, people should know is repeat, as the judge said in that tape, you showed -- repeat what the uniform code of military justice says. The troops are obligated to not obey an illegal order.
And what I didn't know because I've never served in military. I talked to one of those members who made that film, who was an officer, and he told me, we trained our guys from basic training in our troops, from basic training about what is and isn't -- is not an illegal order. These troops know that. So, they were repeating something, I think good, but that every soldier, sailor, airman, marine knows and they're trained on that from day one, because our military is great. They put the Constitution ahead of anything.
DUBKE: But they were doing it -- they were doing it in a context that was trying to elicit the response that they got. Yeah, okay.
BEGALA: I actually don't think --
DUBKE: You are a political commentator. So put that hat on and you can say, that was brilliant on that part. BEGALA: Right, it was great. I don't -- I know I talked to a couple
of them and they didn't expect this kind of success from -- political success from --
DANN: Thirteen million dollars in the first quarter for Mark Kelly. He has $22 million cash on hand.
BEGALA: Yeah.
DANN: I do think it also speaks to Republicans looking when you watch a lot of political ads, Republicans are still trying to figure out exactly who their boogeyman is going to be for 2026. When you see sort of this melange and like that sepia tone of like, these are the bad guys, it's Hakeem Jeffries who, with all due respect to the leader, isn't particularly well known. He's not a Nancy Pelosi-type figure.
You see AOC, you see a little bit of Bernie. But I do think that there are Republicans are still figuring out who is going to be the bad guy that were going to tie, you know, every -- every moderate Republican to -- or every moderate Democrat to. AOC is probably the only one who you see consistently. You see Biden, who's a story of the past. You see Harris, who may or may not be in the picture.
So, this elevation of person after person is a little bit of spaghetti at the wall, I think.
DUBKE: Well, in my playing card deck, I've got Elizabeth Warren. I've got Chuck Schumer. I've got a few others. So, I mean, there --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, do people really care in that way? Like, I mean, is Chuck Schumer or Elizabeth warren going to be the boogeyman in sort of the Midwest? I don't think so. These people aren't particularly well known. And also where they stand on things isn't something that people would be like, oh my goodness, let's run for the hills. You know, I just don't think that that's --
HUNT: I'm glad we turned this conversation this way because Donald Trump today is trying to make Jeffries -- Hakeem Jeffries, who Carrie mentioned -- the boogeyman and he put this on his Truth Social profile, called him a lunatic.
This lunatic Hakeem low IQ Jeffries should be charged with inciting violence. The radical left Democrats actually want to destroy our country. President DJT.
Now low IQ is something that this president often levels at Black people specifically. So, it's worth just kind of underscoring that. He has a lot of nicknames for a lot of people. But that's something that you see with, with some level of regularity.
Now he was talking about the pictures in this post are about whether Hakeem Jeffries should be charged with inciting violence. And there's a picture of the White House Correspondents' Dinner at the moment of the shooting. And then there's this photo of Hakeem Jeffries at a news conference earlier. Now, the -- what you see on that billboard, maximum warfare appears to
be referring to a comment that a Trump, an anonymous Trump confidante, gave to "The New York Times" when he was talking about redistricting, of all things, where they said maximum warfare everywhere, all the time. Again, talking about the White House's political strategy.
I mean, in some ways this underscores the point you were making about how like, does anybody know with, again, respect to the leader who Hakeem Jeffries is and is this, you know, in some ways, it's a little bit hard for them to post attacks that are going to stick.
DANN: I think that's completely correct. I mean, I do think that the strategy for Republicans, if they are going to have a prayer of taking control, of keeping control of the house has a lot to do with tying Democrats, even moderate Democrats, to the most progressive people that they possibly can. The most progressive issues, the most social issues that they possibly can.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's an old playbook.
DANN: Right. It's a classic playbook. Democrats are -- seem very committed to keeping on message and talking about cost of living all the time.
HUNT: Well, and it also, I think, underscores that that video was put out by members of the Democratic Party who have a lot of national security experience. So, by focusing on them and elevating them in some ways, you're actually making your own job harder if you're a Republican.
[16:45:03]
All right. Ahead here in THE ARENA, more on that meeting today between two top Americans, one, the secretary of state, the other the pope.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO XIV, CATHOLIC CHURCH: Self-defense has traditionally always been allowed by the church, so I -- to talk about just what it is a very complex problem. And you have to analyze it on many levels. But ever since the entrance into the nuclear age, the whole concept of war has to be reevaluated in terms today. And I always believe that it's much better to continue to dialogue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[16:50:01]
HUNT: I don't know if I'm ever going to get used to listening to the pope speak English with an American accent. It is very -- very cool.
Anyway, the pope was laying out his perspective on war just hours before he welcomed Secretary of State Marco Rubio to the Vatican. The pontiff's statements about the war with Iran have been a point of contention with President Trump for weeks now, according to a Vatican spokesperson. They talked about the Middle East, including Iran and Lebanon, as well as conflicts in Africa and the situation in Cuba.
CNN religion contributor, Father Edward Beck, joins us now.
Father, thank you so much for being with us. I really appreciate it.
Both the secretary of state and the Vatican released statements after this meeting. The Vatican's was considerably longer than the American statement. And they said that there was, quote, "an exchange of views on the regional and international situation".
What did you take away from the way the Vatican framed this statement and what it says about how the meeting went?
FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I thought there was a big contrast between the Vatican statement and the State Department statement. I mean, the State Department statement was that the meeting underscored this strong relationship between the U.S. and the Vatican and that, as you said, the Vatican said there was simply an exchange of views. So I think that's diplomatic language for we heard each other, but it certainly isn't the same thing as agreeing.
I mean, when two sides noticeably tell different stories about the same meeting, I think the gap between those stories is really the story.
HUNT: Fair enough. Very, very sharp way of looking at it.
I want to put up to show our viewers the support for the president of the United States here among white Catholic voters, because when he first took office for his at the beginning of his second term in February of 2025, 63 percent of white Catholics approved of the job the president was doing. Fast forward to April 2026, just last month, its down below 50 percent to 49 percent. And this, of course, comes amid the back and forth between the president and the pontiff.
What does it say to you that white Catholic voters seem to be turning on the president right now?
BECK: Well, I don't think that they like the fact that he's criticizing their religious leader. And I think it's going to show I think it's just a misstep on his part as far as Catholics are concerned.
You know, it was interesting to me, Kasie, today, I don't know if you saw it, but pope's gift to Rubio when he was leaving was this olive wood pen. And in case the symbolism was missed, Pope Leo said, by the way, this is the plant of peace. And then Rubio gave Leo a crystal football with the State Department seal.
I mean, there's a real contrast in those two gifts. And I don't know, maybe the question I thought afterwards was like, whose end zone is that football closer to? And we're hoping it's peace. But I don't think you do it by criticizing the pope who's trying to be a peace broker here. And I think Catholics are just recognizing, look, lay off. He's trying
to do what he does well and what the gospel says, and he's not going to change his position on this. He hasn't from the start.
HUNT: What did you -- I mean, it's -- what message do you think that Rubio, the secretary of state, was trying to send with the football?
BECK: I really don't know. I think it was kind of just, okay, we have a State Department football or, you know, I think it would have been more appropriate, perhaps a White House, White Sox baseball, you know, the pope is a White Sox fan.
But I think the meeting was all about cooling the rhetoric and certainly the Vatican isn't declaring victory here. It's cautiously, cautiously leaving the door open.
But I think the pope's message has always been clear that too many innocent people are being killed and that someone has to stand up and say that there's a better way. And I don't think Rubio's visit changed that at all.
You know, the pope -- he preached peace beforehand. During the cameras, and he's going to keep preaching it after Rubio's plane lands back here. And so, I think the real question is, what does President Trump do next, right? Because 2.5 hours of careful, careful diplomacy in the apostolic palace can be undone with one Truth Social post, right? I mean, that's the fragility here.
HUNT: Yeah. And for Rubio and we're coming up on time. But for Rubio, what's it like for a Catholic to meet a pope for the first time?
BECK: Oh, I think it's a remarkable honor. And, you know, certainly I believe that Senator Rubio is now a very committed Catholic. He's had a rather circuitous route in his Catholicism.
[16:55:04]
I think you might know, as a child he was Mormon, baptized into the Mormon Church after being Catholic first and then with his wife. He went to a Baptist church, and then he came back to Catholicism. I think he's really committed to it, and I think it's a real honor for him. He was very respectful.
So I think I'm going to believe that all intentions were good here.
HUNT: All right. Fair enough.
Father Edward Beck, thank you so much for bringing your wisdom to the show today. I appreciate it.
BECK: Thank you, Kasie.
HUNT: All right. We'll be right back.
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HUNT: All right. Thanks so much to my panel. I really appreciate you being here.
Thanks to you at home for watching as well.
Don't go anywhere because Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".
Hi, Jake. Happy Thursday.
