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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Exclusive: Blanche Told To Recuse Himself On Trump Cases; Former FBI Director James Comey On His DOJ Indictment; Trump Claims Xi Offered To "Help" With Iran. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired May 14, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: That's what they want to know. Ron, it is so awesome to have you. This is so much fun. Thanks for being with us.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Thanks, Ron.

With that, THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now. Thanks for joining us.

(MUSIC)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. I'm Kasie Hunt. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday.

We're going to be joined momentarily by former FBI Director James Comey, who is standing by here.

But first, we have breaking news and exclusive new CNN reporting. A source says that acting Attorney General Todd Blanche was informed by the Justice Department's top ethics official last year that he must recuse himself from any cases that involve Donald Trump in his personal capacity. Blanche previously represented Trump, the defendant, in multiple criminal cases.

In a statement to CNN, the department confirmed that Blanche has recused himself from, quote, "many cases," end quote.

Let's get off the sidelines. Head into THE ARENA. As we said in just moments, the former FBI Director James Comey, will join us.

But first, we want to bring in CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz to talk us through her new exclusive reporting.

Katelyn, what more do we know? Kasie the one thing that Donald Trump has not wanted from any attorney general he has ever had first term or now is them to recuse from the investigations that are important to him. And yet there is something that needs to happen as far as legal ethics go, whenever there are former defense attorneys for the president serving in top political roles at the Justice Department, namely Todd Blanche, when he became the deputy attorney general shortly after his confirmation last March to that job.

He was told explicitly by a senior justice ethics official that he needed to recuse from cases that would involve Donald Trump in his personal capacity in any way, because Blanche had represented Trump in his private law firm when Trump was facing multiple criminal indictments, blanche was the primary defense lawyer, both in the federal court in D.C. and in Florida. But anything that the Justice Department touches where Trump would have a personal interest in it or could be a witness or could somehow be part of the evidence there, that is something that Blanche was told he would need to recuse from for at least a year, and then potentially longer, if there is the reasonable possibility people could think there was impropriety.

Now, we have asked the Justice Department about this several times. It has been a question for me in reporting on this Justice Department since Blanche became the DAG last year, and the acting Attorney General Blanche did put out a statement on social media just a few moments ago, saying the Justice Department ethics rules around recusal are black and white, and rest assured, I'm fully compliant.

There was also a spokesperson who told us earlier today that Blanche would need to recuse or would be recusing from matters involving Donald Trump as needed, but there's a lot of nonspecific around these public statements from the Justice Department. Does it mean that Blanche has removed himself fully from any of these investigations that touch on Donald Trump being investigated and now investigating others, potentially or anywhere where he would have a personal interest? We know there are several investigations like that going on, including out of Florida.

So, it's a big question for the Justice Department and one that we're getting some answers, but not the full story just yet -- Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Well, I'm sure you'll stay on it. Katelyn Polantz, thank you very much for that reporting.

And of course, Katelyn's new reporting comes as the Justice Department, under Todd Blanche, pursues numerous investigations and criminal cases against a long list of the president's perceived enemies.

At the top of the list, former FBI Director James Comey, who will be here. A federal judge dismissed a previous indictment against Comey, but he's now facing two felony counts tied to this photo of seashells that he uploaded to Instagram. It spells out, as you can see, "86 47", prosecutors allege it amounts to a threat against President Trump.

Comey later deleted that post, saying that's not what he meant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: I'm still innocent. I'm still not afraid, and I still believe in the independent federal judiciary. So, let's go

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Joining us now in THE ARENA is former FBI Director James Comey. He's also the author of the new crime novel "Red Verdict", which we are also going to talk about today.

Director Comey, thank you very much for being here.

COMEY: Thanks for having me.

HUNT: You, of course, said in that video that, you know, you are up for this fight. But of course, it is one that is a continuation of what the president seems to be doing in targeting you. He was very explicit in telling Pam Bondi, his former attorney general, to do that.

[16:05:02]

You just heard Katelyn's new reporting about the acting attorney general, Todd Blanche.

Do you believe that the acting attorney general should recuse himself from any cases involving you, given the presidents focus on you?

COMEY: I don't know. I know it's very important that he get career advice from people. I've been the deputy attorney general and the acting attorney general, so I know how really important it is to get good advice and to follow that advice. But I haven't thought it through from my perspective as a defendant.

HUNT: You've argued, or at least you argued in your previous case, that this this was political. Does that not make it inherently about Donald Trump, the person?

COMEY: It could, but it depends on what that means for the recusal regulations and whether it triggers a need for his former defense attorney to get out of cases. I don't know. I mean, I never imagined a circumstance where a president would have a criminal defense lawyer who was the acting attorney general. So, it seems like it might be new ground they got to look at very carefully.

HUNT: I want to ask you about, and I realize you can't discuss the specifics of the case that's been brought against you in this second indictment. But there are some things that are out there in the in the public domain that make it a little bit different from the first indictment that you dealt with. I -- chief among them, perhaps, is the venue, the place where this is all going to going to take place. And that's in North Carolina, in the eastern district. It's a more conservative area of the country. And of course, the judge appointed by a Republican president.

Are you concerned -- more concerned about what you face because of the venue?

COMEY: Well, as you said, I am going to keep my promise to my lawyers and myself not to talk about the case while it's pending. I can talk about the last one that was dismissed, but I need to stay away and only speak in the courtroom about this one. In general, I have great faith in the federal judicial system, no matter where it is.

HUNT: Do you think there are differences, though, between jurisdictions -- among jurisdictions in the U.S.?

COMEY: Well, judges are human beings around the country, so there may be a judge with a different personality in Houston than in San Antonio. But in the overwhelming main, they are a group that reflects the genius of our founders to make an -- a political career lifetime tenure branch to protect the rule of law.

HUNT: There are plenty of people who have joked right about this new case, about the Instagram post that you put up that said "86 47", essentially ridiculed the idea that this should be considered a problem for you. Do you share an attitude of ridicule toward it, or do you think that would be a mistake?

COMEY: No, I'm the defendant, so I take it very seriously and we will meet it on the merits, following the rules, respecting the process in the courtroom. And that's where we'll talk about it.

HUNT: You've essentially said, and you did this in your first indictment, and then you also did post a video in late April -- you know, bring it on. Right? You're not afraid. Do you feel more fear about this one than you did about the last one?

COMEY: I meant what I said in the video clip that you showed. I'm not afraid. I've been targeted by the president repeatedly, obsessively. It's really important that we not become numb to this and that people who have something to add in the public forum about things like the rule of law, not be intimidated and be silent. I won't talk about a case that's pending, but I will not stop talking about the threats that this administration poses to the rule of law.

HUNT: Do you think the country is numb to it?

COMEY: Sure, a little bit. The president wakes up, I don't know, 2:00 in the morning tweeting crazy -- not tweeting, but truthing or whatever they call it, craziness. And we all kind of shrug and go to work and go on to look at other things. Yes, we are inevitably numb because of the tidal wave of nuttiness.

HUNT: What do you think is the consequence of that numbness?

COMEY: Well, not realizing what's at stake, especially we have elections coming up this fall. Those who care about the rule of law need to participate in those elections, not become numb to it and not let it become background noise, participate and vote to decide what kind of country you want to be.

HUNT: Does the president going after you, give you a higher profile platform to convince people to get involved?

COMEY: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. It forces me to talk about other stuff when I'm trying to talk about my book. But it is -- I don't know the answer to that. I'd rather not be the person talking about whether I have a platform or not answering that question, but I am where I am, and I can only act one way. And that's the way I'm trying to be. HUNT: You were subpoenaed last year, and that was during this

investigation around the seashell post. We now, of course, have this second indictment. What did that subpoena ask of you?

COMEY: Yeah. I don't think that I or my team have confirmed the receipt of a grand jury subpoena. This is out of a Florida case I think you're referring to. So, I don't think I can say that here.

HUNT: So, are you confident that the seashell investigation and subsequent indictment is the only investigation currently ongoing into you right now?

[16:10:04]

COMEY: Oh, I have no idea. I mean -- and I am confident that there will be something else. As I've told my family, you need to prepare yourself. This is going to go on until Donald Trump is no longer in office because for whatever reason, I'm on the enemies list.

HUNT: And are you aware of an additional investigation? Has your team been made aware of it?

COMEY: Not personally, no, I've seen news reporting of different things. A so-called grand conspiracy wackiness in Florida and things like that. But I don't know personally as a matter of fact.

HUNT: And neither does your team?

COMEY: Not that I'm aware of.

HUNT: The acting attorney general, Todd Blanche, he did an interview on meet the press earlier this month, and I want to play what he said and just get you to talk about it on the other side. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TODD BLANCHE, ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL: What you just showed is one part of that investigation. What you just showed is the Instagram post. Rest assured that it's not just the Instagram post that leads somebody to get indicted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Do you know what he's talking about?

COMEY: I don't. I would advise him to read the local rules on talking about a case outside of the courtroom, but so I'm not going to react to that.

HUNT: Because, I mean, he essentially says, I mean, it does probably take I mean, it took them, what, 11 months to bring this. Surely, they must have looked at something other than just the Instagram post.

COMEY: Well, we'll find out in the context of the court case. I look forward to it.

HUNT: You had said about the post that your wife actually encouraged you to post it. I mean, has she been dragged into this, too?

COMEY: Yeah. Again, I can't talk about the particulars of the case. I'm sorry.

HUNT One of the, the things that is listed in the indictment is this idea of forfeiture, right? And this idea that perhaps because you were selling a book at the time that this all transpired, you might have to give up the book proceeds. Is that another example of a justice system that is targeting political enemies?

COMEY: Yeah. I hate to be in THE ARENA giving you non-answers. Same non-answer, though.

HUNT: Well, the -- I mean, you know, it's my job to ask. You can you can always.

COMEY: Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to someday, we'll see.

HUNT: So, in the big picture and not specific to this case, but to this idea that and we showed a list, right? It's not just you of the presidents perceived enemies. Did you ever think about asking President Biden for a preemptive pardon as Trump was coming back into office?

COMEY: Never.

HUNT: Do you think he would have given you one if you'd asked?

COMEY: I don't know, I wouldn't have accepted it. Supreme Court said in 1914 that the acceptance of a pardon is an admission of guilt. It's what consoled Gerald Ford when he pardoned Richard Nixon. He carried a quote from the case in his wallet till the day he died, because it meant Nixon had admitted guilt.

And so, I'm not guilty. I am innocent, so I wouldn't be accepting any pardons.

HUNT: Do you think the people that Biden did preemptively pardon are guilty of crimes?

COMEY: Well, I'm just telling you what the Supreme Court said by accepting a pardon, it's an admission of guilt. And so, I hope they thought about it carefully.

HUNT: When you think about how you got here, this, of course, came out of your role as FBI director and the involvement that you had had in the 2016 presidential election, your relationships with both of the people that were on the stage there, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, do you -- how do you think about your place on the stage now? Would you rather be just going off into the sunset as a grandfather writing books, or would you rather be here?

COMEY: Hate to offend you. I would so much rather just be a grandfather writing books. I love to write. I love my grandchildren more, but I am where I am.

HUNT: And for your family, do they accept it the way you say that you've accepted it?

COMEY: At least to my face. Maybe they talk about me behind my back, but I think they know that I'm just -- I thought I was going to be a non-playing character after I left, but I've ended up because of the presidents targeting of me still in the news, still in the news. It'll go away in two and a half years.

HUNT: Let me -- let me bring it back to kind of current events here, because Kash Patel is, of course, the current FBI director. And look, it's a small club, right? There have been, what, nine of you in American history.

COMEY: Yeah, starting with Hoover. And then you have the ninth now.

HUNT: Yeah. So, Mr. Patel has -- I mean, there were headlines at just this afternoon and another outlet about him potentially. And CNN hasn't reported this yet, but accepting a snorkeling trip when he was in Hawaii, he went to the Olympics and was seen chugging a beer on camera with members of the hockey team.

Are these things that you would have done as FBI director?

COMEY: Oh, you said snorkeling?

HUNT: Yes.

COMEY: Yeah. I visited the pearl harbor memorial with the admiral in charge of the Pacific Command on a Navy boat. Never got in the water, so I -- I don't know, I think when you're FBI director, you have a responsibility to represent not just yourself, but 38,000 people.

[16:15:01]

And an idea, an American idea that's respected around the world.

And that's a burden. But you're always on duty. You're always being watched. And I knew that the whole time.

HUNT: And on the drinking question is it, do you think acceptable for an FBI director to be intoxicated while serving in that role?

COMEY: You can't be because you're always on. You don't get vacation because you're considered on the job 24/7, all the time. You can be asked to approve a FISA to be involved in an operational decision.

So, I'm not a big drinker, but I was never intoxicated while on the job. It\s really important that you be alert at all times.

HUNT: Do you -- are you confident that Kash Patel is alert at all times?

COMEY: Yeah, I'll let other people make that judgment

HUNT: Just from what you've seen? No?

COMEY: Yeah. I keep mixing them up with the "Saturday Night Live" guy now, but I -- so I can't say.

HUNT: Do you -- if you had seen a video of someone that worked for you at the FBI engaged in the behavior that the FBI director was engaged in drinking, you know, on camera in that way, what would you have done?

COMEY: Well, I would expect that I wouldn't have needed to do anything. Anytime there was a credible allegation that alcohol was being used or abused during work, it would be looked at by our inspection division very, very quickly.

HUNT: And what was the -- what is the punishment for that?

COMEY: Well, it would depend upon the person's history. What were the circumstances? Was it a beer? Was it a public event or a private event? Did it reflect poorly on the FBIs reputation? A lot of factors that I don't know.

HUNT: Do you think that the current director has politicized the bureau in a way that is, you know, compromising?

COMEY: I think the current director has sent a wave of fear through the organization by pushing out firing, removing high quality people for doing their jobs. That's a terrible place to be for lots of reasons. And that worries me a great deal. It's a really hard time at the FBI now, but I'm hoping the good people can hunker down, follow the rules and hang in there.

Time is flying. It'll be two and a half years before there's an opportunity to change the FBI.

HUNT: Do you still talk to employees at the FBI regularly?

COMEY: I do.

HUNT: And what do they -- are they afraid to be talking to you?

COMEY: Yes. As a matter of fact, they're under siege. And I think about them a lot. I worry about them a lot, both those who are still there and those who've been thrown out while loved ones are sick, while they're struggling financially. There's a lot of pain at the FBI and the FBI community right now, but it's not going to last forever.

HUNT: Do you think those people who talk to you could get in trouble for doing it?

COMEY: No, they're not sharing secret information with me or nonpublic information with me. They're talking about their personal lives.

HUNT: And I know you had said in another interview that you had been helping some people who have been fired. I mean, what does that help entail for you?

COMEY: Well, I have made more money than the average FBI employee. And so, I try and share that and support them financially and, and also moral support.

HUNT: All right. Stand by for us. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to continue our conversation on the other side.

Coming up, we're going to have much more with former FBI Director James Comey. We're going to talk about his new book and what he thinks about some recent comments and actions by President Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:22:53]

HUNT: All right. We're back now with former FBI Director James Comey. He is out with this new crime novel, "Red Verdict". We're going to dig into that in a second.

But I want to go back to the current president, who, as we've discussed, has been targeting you. That's part of why you're sitting here along with the book. You've said in recent interviews that the president doesn't seem okay and that there's something wrong with the man. Is there something specific that leads you to say that?

COMEY: Well, mostly the 2:00 a.m. social media posting of craziness, of other people's work, of himself as Jesus, all these sorts of things is, is not okay. I mean, I've always thought Donald Trump was a little bit off, but whoa, compared to even to six years ago, something's off.

HUNT: What was he like six years ago? That's different than how he is now.

COMEY: He seemed, by Trumpian standards, more serious, more even keeled, less focused on -- less focused entirely on himself and his projects and his obsessions, the people he wants to get, the things he wants to build. All of that seems to me a little bit off, and I don't remember feeling that in 2017.

HUNT: You felt like he was more interested in a wider variety of things then?

COMEY: Yeah, I think so. And again, I have a selection bias because I didn't interact with him all that much, but he seemed -- obviously, he's older now. He's almost 80, but I hope when I move from 74 to 80, there won't be this appreciable difference.

HUNT: Do you think that this change in his mental state, as you describe it, explains the multiple indictments against you?

COMEY: Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.

HUNT: I mean, is he more focused on going after the people he wants to go after because of this?

COMEY: Well, he has announced when he came back, I am -- I was the hunted. Now I'm the hunter. So, I mean, to his credit, he said, I'm going to target people. And now he's doing it, which is unlawful.

[16:25:00]

And something we raised in the Eastern District of Virginia. Prosecution didn't get a ruling on it because it got thrown out for other reasons.

But he has announced this is what he's about. He's going to get people that he thinks have criticized him, and he's living up to that.

HUNT: When was the last time you talked to President Trump?

COMEY: 2017, probably -- either maybe April, maybe early May. I was fired. I don't mark the holiday, but I think it's M the 9th.

HUNT: Uh-huh. And you haven't spoken to him since then?

COMEY: No.

HUNT: Has he ever tried to call you?

COMEY: No, not to my knowledge.

HUNT: Have you ever tried to call him?

COMEY: I have not.

HUNT: Hey, the man is a prolific --

COMEY: I guess a lot of people call him.

HUNT: He -- yes, you can call him if you --

COMEY: I don't have his number in my phone.

HUNT: What would you say to him if you did have him on the phone?

COMEY: I -- yeah, I can't even imagine. I would want to have a very careful conversation because it might be useful as an evidentiary matter.

HUNT: Well, I suppose that's true. If you were not under indictment, what would you want to say to him about this arc of history that the two of you find yourself as part of

COMEY: Yeah, I don't -- I don't like being the dancing together in the arc of history. I think its actually beyond counseling and beyond help or hope. I don't think there's anything useful I could say.

We just need to get through this. Two and a half years and America will be okay with it. Theres going to be a lot of pain in this two and a half years, but long run will be okay. And Donald Trump can enjoy Mar-a-Lago.

HUNT: When I talk to, you know, so I cover political campaigns by trade, presidential campaigns. I was the first to report on the network. I worked for the letter that you put out in 2016, late in the election cycle that said you were reopening the investigation into Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton has made abundantly clear that she thinks you played a role in her 2016 loss. And I know you've both addressed it in your respective books.

You sort of said at the time that you didn't think that you had a choice, that she was on track to win the election. I think the question I've always had for you since I covered that is, you know, why did you assume she was going to win.?

COMEY: That wasn't why I made the decision I made. But I've said in hindsight, I was living in an environment, as were you, where everyone, maybe even Donald Trump, assumed that Hillary Clinton was going to win. And so, I asked myself, could that have had an impact on me?

And the answer was, I don't know. But that was the world in which I lived. I made the decision I made because between two really bad options, it was the least bad.

HUNT: What did you learn from the reaction to what happened? Like, what did you learn from that? Did you take away from that that you should think about politics in a different way?

COMEY: No, I already knew politics was tribal. I mean, were so tribal that the Trump crowd doesn't realize that the Clinton crowd hates me. And the Clinton crowd doesn't realize the Trump's cloud hates me. I've had situations where someone curses me on the street and I have to stop and say, so is that a Clintonian F you or a Trumpian F you?

That's how divided we are. I knew we were polarized. As my deputy said to me when that investigation opened, you know, you're totally screwed, right? And of course I did. No matter what happened, they were going to blame the umpire for the result of the game.

And that's just the way it is. You can't let that get in the way of making ethical decisions. And even in hindsight, I wish to god, we hadn't been involved, but we made the right decision. We chose the least bad option. And I'm no political scientist, but having now seen what happened with the vote in '16, '20 and '24, I highly doubt the FBI had any impact on the election. But it doesn't change the way I think about the decision.

HUNT: So you think that the election results in 2020 and 2024 demonstrate that you did not make the difference in 2016?

COMEY: Again, I'm no expert, but one of the things I heard in 16 was, oh, the late deciding voters broke for Trump because of the FBI. But then they did in 2020, when I was home in my pajamas. Then they did in 2024, when I was home in my pajamas. And so I don't know, but I -- I find it difficult on its face to say that, but again, it wouldn't change the decision. The decision choices both sucked. And we chose the one that was least bad.

HUNT: Before I let you go, I do want to, of course, turn to your book and you know, your, the characters in the book. You write in two things stood out to me. The dedication and the acknowledgments. You dedicated this book to the dedicated prosecutors and agents who

keep our country safe, yet we're wrongly forced from public service. And you talk about the main characters, Nora and Benny, who you say are imperfect but honest and decent, and represent the beating heart of the Justice Department that I know so well.

What of your experience did you bring to the book? And what of your current experience, what you're going through now did you bring to the book?

COMEY: In all of my books, all four so far, what I'm trying to do is tell exciting stories that are true to the way it really is inside the FBI, inside the Department of Justice, in the way the people act, the way they interact.

[16:30:04]

I thought it was very important, which is why I put it in both the acknowledgments and the dedication to tell people that my main characters, that is the way it really is. These are the good people who are now under pressure, who are being forced out, who are being, you know, being haunted by people who have a political motive. My stories are great, but the characters in a lot of ways are greater, and they represent something real.

HUNT: All right. Former FBI Director Jim Comey, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate the conversation.

The book is "Red Verdict", and it's out now.

All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, we've got new details on President Trump's summit with China's president in Beijing. What we're learning today about Iran as the war there prepares to enter its 11th week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): Can they strike oil infrastructure across the Persian Gulf?

ADMIRAL BRAD COOPER, COMMANDER OF UNITED STATES CENTRAL COMMAND: They have a very moderate, if not small, capability to continue strikes. And we, of course, have accordingly prepared for such a contingency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:30]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: The issue and you've been asked about it and you've spoken about it. And that is China's support of Iran. How big a discussion was that today? DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We discussed it. I

mean, when you say support, they're not fighting a war with us or anything.

HANNITY: No.

TRUMP: He said he's not going to give military equipment. That's a big statement. He said that today. That's a big statement.

He said that strongly. But at the same time, he said, you know, they buy a lot of their oil there and they'd like to keep doing that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: President Trump revealing Chinese President Xi Jinping told him they will not give any military equipment to Iran. The Chinese have not confirmed that the war with Iran, just one of many geopolitical tensions that have been hanging over this meeting.

My panel is here in THE ARENA, CNN political commentator, Jonah Goldberg; NBC News senior homeland security correspondent Julia Ainsley, she's the author of a new book on due process inside the story of Trump's mass deportation program. We're also joined by former DNC senior advisor and communications director, Xochitl Hinojosa, and Republican strategist Brad Todd. Both CNN political commentators as well.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you so much for being here.

Jonah Goldberg, I want to start with you on kind of the way we are learning about what's happening between these two presidents with, you know, a list of, quite frankly, the most pressing geopolitical concerns, whether it's the war with Iran and the Strait of Hormuz, whether it's the way each party is dealing with the question of Taiwan, potential for enormous geopolitical conflict.

What has stood out to you? I mean, what the Chinese have been saying in their readouts, namely, you know, saber rattling in many ways about Taiwan compared to what the president our president, is focused on. I mean, the disparity is pretty striking.

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I mean, part of this is -- part of what's striking to me is, is that China went into this at least posturing, communicating the idea that they are an ascendant power, that they're no longer playing catch up with America, that this is that -- they're on the rise. We're on the decline. And that vibe comes through quite a bit.

So does -- part of the problem is also just that the way Trump, he loves these summits, he loves reducing all of these things down to personal relationships. And I think friends and foes alike have figured that out and know how to sort of work him a bit so that he gets all jazzed by these things. But I don't know how to grade it overall until down the road when we actually see what concrete comes out of all of it.

HUNT: Yeah. And I was remiss, too, in not introducing CNN's senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes, who has been in Beijing.

So, Kristen, can you kind of outline for us? I mean, you heard what Jonah just said here, and obviously, you've seen all of what's come out of this summit. I mean, the pictures are also remarkable. The Chinese have gone out of their way to present a certain image to the world here. What has stood out to you?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I mean, look, President Xi, you're seeing him walking next to President Trump. He knows exactly what President Trump wants. And President Trump has talked about this. He's talked about it since he the first time in 2017 and said talked about extensively the pomp and circumstance. And even if you look at his recent comments about the ballroom, he often says, can you imagine bringing president xi to this ballroom? This is why we need this great ballroom.

I mean, he clearly compares everything at the White House to what he's seen at the palace there at the Great Hall of the People. But I do want to go back to those comments about military equipment, not providing military equipment. Everything that we're getting out of these meetings right now is a drip, drip, drip of information. There's a lot of diplomatic sensitivities.

But the other thing you have to keep in mind here is everyone who is traveling here with President Trump is not using their regular phone. They're using burner phones with new numbers on them because everyone is afraid of cybersecurity. Everyone is afraid of having specific phone conversations at different places here in China. So that's why you're seeing this drip, drip, drip, and we don't know what is coming out of this as a whole. And as Jonah said, I think the most notable part of all of this is we're not going to know for the next several days until we actually start hearing the announcements of these deals, until we actually start seeing something change in Iran.

I think what was interesting is we heard something very different from Secretary Rubio, or maybe not very different, but slightly different than what we heard from President Trump. Rubio went on very tough talk, saying we don't need China's help. President Trump didn't ask President Xi for help on this. We don't need that in the Strait of Hormuz.

And then you have President Trump kind of changing his attitude, its tune a little bit, saying that President Xi said he would help if there was anything he could do whatsoever, he would help with Iran. Now, of course, we need to marry all of this and were going to piece this together over the next several days as to what was actually said behind closed doors, was this a flippant comment of Xi's where he says, oh, I don't know if there's anything I can do to help, but if I can let me know, we know there's something he can do to help. He can pressure Iran.

The other part of this that was very interesting in this interview is President Trump made clear that President Xi told him specifically he was going to continue buying oil from Iran. He's not going to change his relationship with Iran. So that's also something to watch in the coming days as to what information is coming out of here, what she said and what that support or relationship with Iran looks like.

HUNT: Yeah, for sure.

Let me bring my panel back in here.

And, Julia Ainsley, you obviously cover a lot of this from kind of the homeland security perspective, but that's another element to everything that's going on overseas. In no small part because look, there's a bunch of CEOs that are traveling with the president, one person who isn't is a chip maker that wants to sell chips to China. But of course, there are massive security concerns.

There's been reports that Anthropic, you know, the Chinese asked for access to Anthropic's latest model that they only gave to a handful of U.S. companies. And anthropic said, no, you can't have it. How do you see kind of those pieces interacting with what we're seeing from the president and the Chinese president?

JULIA AINSLEY, NBC NEWS SENIOR HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's such a good point. It also really amplifies the difference in Trump's position going into this, even as he pushed back this trip thinking he'd be in a different place with Iran, that they would have already capitulated, that the street would be back open. He thought he would be in a more powerful position. And a lot of what I get into in the book is about the powerful position he was in in 2025 to expand executive power through immigration.

And one of the things that we're -- we're really seeing on display here, especially between these two men, is a weakening in Trump's position. And he even has backed off also domestically on a lot of his top priorities, like immigration. We're not seeing the very public things we saw in immigration like Minneapolis earlier this year.

When it comes to what's happening with cyber, with tech and all the IP concerns, really, when it comes to China, that's something that a stronger Trump in 2017 had the ability to really hammer on in a much more aggressive position when he did his trip to China just after being elected in his first term, he was out there to really try to save American I.P. Now things have changed, and yes, you're seeing them having to really come to the table and negotiate a bit more on that.

One of the more interesting stories I was able to cover covering DHS was on Chinese people being arrested for stealing seeds out of corn fields in the United States to replicate GMOs. The I.P. theft doesn't just stop when it comes to what you see on your computer. It's rampant. And it's something that a lot of American manufacturers are really concerned about, and they're going to want to see real -- real results come out of this meeting.

HUNT: Brad Todd -- I mean, the president, much of this second term has been focused on tariffs. You know, and whenever you get Republicans to try to defend tariffs that, you know, probably fly in the face of a lot of their ideological convictions, they'll say it's all about China, right? It's all about getting this deal with China.

And yet it doesn't seem like the presidents able to deliver on it from a position of strength.

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think there's a real danger on this trip for the president because the support among his base for being tough on China, on trade is nearly universal, with the exception of a few folks who work at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce building. Everybody else is pretty much for tough sanctions and trade tariffs on China inside the Republican base.

And I think going into the election this year in the midterms, a lot of Republicans will not want to go have to explain to their base voters why we backed off on trade, on China. So, I hope the president comes back here with a resolve to continue to isolate China, continue to try to bring them to heel on trade matters. I think it's a real risk with this summit.

You know, campaigns, if you look across the stage, I work for Republican campaigns across the country and, you know, banning China from buying U.S. farmland -- that's probably the most common issue you see in Republican campaign ads right now in the primaries. So that's a -- that's a word to the wise for the president, I think.

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. And also, I mean, I think for his base and Americans in general, they want him to deal with the issue of cost of living and gas prices. And many in his base have said, why are you abroad when you should be at home trying to bring down costs as much as possible.

And people believe that he needs to be doing more of that. His comments from last week talking or maybe it was earlier, this --

HUNT: Was earlier this week, he was taking off for China.

HINOJOSA: Was taking off for China, saying that he wasn't really thinking about Americans when he was going off to China. I don't think the picture of him boarding a plane or getting off the plane with the America's most wealthy men. And then having the red carpet rolled out for him. And all of the pomp that he usually likes, that these world leaders know how to perform for him -- I don't think that is a good look. Whenever people are struggling to buy groceries or to put gas in their cars right now.

[16:45:00]

HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, what China's president says will become a very dangerous situation if not handled properly.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We've had a fantastic relationship. We've gotten along. When there were difficulties, we worked it out. I would call you and you would call me. And whenever we had a problem -- people don't know -- whenever we had a problem, we worked it out very quickly, and were going to have a fantastic future together. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: A fantastic future together. President Trump praised the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, and their relationship as they sat down for talks in Beijing.

[16:50:01]

One major geopolitical issue hanging over that future is Taiwan. In that meeting, President Xi had a forceful warning for the Americans. He said this, quote, "If it is handled properly. Relations between the two countries can maintain overall stability. If it is not handled properly, the two countries may clash or even come into conflict, pushing the entire China-U.S. relationship into a very dangerous situation."

The secretary of state, Marco Rubio, told NBC, quote, "U.S. policy on the issue of Taiwan is unchanged as of today."

So, joining us now in THE ARENA, CNNs senior international correspondent, Will Ripley. He joins us live now from Taiwan.

Will, that was a pretty strong statement from President Xi. How is that being received where you are in Taiwan?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Kasie. Yeah, it is a strong statement. And this is actually the kind of rhetoric that Taiwan is used to hearing from Xi Jinping. Anytime he sits down with the U.S., he often makes a statement about Taiwan. He's also made over the years similar statements in speeches to the politburo and members of the Chinese Communist Party.

So, from the Taiwanese perspective, that wasn't necessarily a big surprise to hear him say that. I think what they're taking note of here in Taiwan is the fact that it was the first thing that Chinese state media reported about the summit. That was the first line of information leaked to Xinhua News Agency. And really, within a matter of hours after that, there was an equally kind of strongly worded response from the presidential cabinet here in Taipei. The cabinet spokesperson, Michelle Lee, said that Chinas military threat is the sole source of insecurity in the Taiwan strait and the broader Indo- Pacific region.

And she also said that continuous enhancement of defense and effective joint deterrence are the most critical factors to ensuring regional security. It's interesting, she mentioned defense, Kasie, because obviously, as you know, there's still $14 billion in Taiwan arms sales that have not yet been approved by President Trump. So they're obviously hoping that this summit has no bearing whatsoever on the timing of getting those arms sales those defensive weapons approved.

HUNT: So, Will, President Xi also raised this question about transcending the so-called Thucydides Trap. Can you explain that and tell us why it's significant?

RIPLEY: Well, because when you have two superpowers with large militaries and you have the Chinese perception that America is on the decline and China is on the rise. And if you look back at history, there are a lot of examples that would show that that sort of a dynamic, has these countries barreling towards a war just because of the, obviously, the power shifting dynamics that are at play.

Xi Jinping has long felt that the United States is paranoid about the rise of China, is trying to contain China through various means. But he's also determined that this is going to be Chinas grand rejuvenation and that nobody, no country, no superpower is going to stand in the way. That's why you see the largest military buildup, at least since pre-world war two, that the world has ever seen and really even larger than that in terms of just, you know, the explosion of the size of the PLA navy, combined with their investments in space, their bolstering of their nuclear arsenal, and not to mention their all their air force and all of their ground forces.

China is positioning itself to be a real military power, a real economic power. And with the opening created by the Iran war also trying to be a diplomatic power as well.

Now, not necessarily trying to challenge the U.S. globally, but certainly in this region and Taiwan particularly is a -- is an issue that is so sensitive to the Chinese, they don't even want the United States thinking or talking about Taiwan. And every time that there's U.S. lawmaker that visits, they're just infuriated.

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, I remember when Nancy Pelosi, when it was quite a thing. Jonah Goldberg, very briefly, I mean, this banner that we had up a second ago, "Rubio: Policy toward Taiwan is unchanged."

How significant is it that, like, we have to say that out loud today?

GOLDBERG: I think it's really important that my China hawk friends are terrified about what Trump might give away vis-a-vis Taiwan. And it's not just because of Taiwan, which I think we should, you know, get it's back. Japan is terrified about Taiwan being thrown under the bus because Japan essentially becomes a front line country. The Philippines are terrified about what we're going to do.

HUNT: In a conflict like in an armed conflict.

GOLDBERG: In a conflict. Like if we give up Taiwan to China, I would not be surprised if Japan didn't go nuclear within two years.

HUNT: Remarkable.

All right. Will Ripley live for us in Taiwan -- Will, thank you.

All right. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: All right. Thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate all of you guys being here today.

Thanks to all of you at home for watching as well. We always really appreciate you.

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But for now, don't go anywhere. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.