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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
WSJ: Guilfoyle Pushed Donor To Wire $100,000 To Her AmEx Account; Obama Makes Video For Dem Troy Jackson In Maine Senate Race; Report: DOJ Seeks Indictment Of Cassidy Hutchinson. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired October 08, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: -- that there were a lot of hardships on board for that carrier group.
[16:00:03]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: That's right.
SANCHEZ: There were supply issues, there were mental health issues on board. No doubt, we will hear more and learn more of the stories of these sailors aboard as they return back home. Yeah, it's a happy day, but this has been a very tough time, and they have reintegration ahead of them as well.
We'll keep watching this, but THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's great to have you with us on this Thursday.
As we come on the air, a new scandal brewing in the Trump administration. At its center is Kimberly Guilfoyle, the former Fox News host and former fiancee of Donald Trump, Jr. According to a new report from "The Wall Street Journal", in the days leading up to her confirmation vote to be U.S. ambassador to Greece, Guilfoyle basically begged a Trump donor to pay off her $100,000 credit card bill.
The story seeming to catch the Trump administration by surprise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you have any reaction to a U.S. government official, in this case, a U.S. ambassador, asking someone to pay off debt in exchange to access to other government officials?
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, so -- with that hypothetical, Jen, obviously I don't love that, but I -- you know, I don't know exactly who you're talking about. I don't know the full details.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: Don't love it, and the details, they're quite something. "The Wall Street Journal" reports that Guilfoyle texted Eric Deters, a lawyer, Trump supporter and former radio host from Ohio, this quote, "Honey, please, I need you to get this done for me today," end quote. And that she included a prayer hands emoji and a PDF with bill payment instructions from American Express. Quote, "You could just send it here."
"The Journal" says that he didn't ultimately make the payment, telling Guilfoyle that it would cost him his marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERVIEWER: Do you think that she was asking for that payment in exchange for something?
ERIC DETERS, FORMER TRUMP DONOR: Oh, absolutely. She made it very clear in the text messages make it very clear she was so desperate for me to send that $100,000 she said if you do this for me -- and it's in the text messages -- I will be your ride or die in Trump world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Throughout the messages reviewed by "The Journal" that Guilfoyle sent to Dieter, she repeatedly indicated that she did not want him creating evidence of their financial relationship.
She texted him things like this, quote, "Eric, I really wish you would stop papering all these things. What a nightmare. You'll literally cost me my ambassadorship. Stop writing. Stop papering all these things. It's really dangerous."
And, "Just call me on Signal."
"The Journal" spoke to a lawyer for Guilfoyle who said that she disputes the authenticity of the messages but did not provide specifics. The ambassador was seen this morning alongside Secretary of State Marco Rubio during his visit to Greece. Right there, standing feet away from Guilfoyle, he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Let me tell you something. You guys are going to ask me this. You're going to ask me again in Portugal. I know the game, OK? The game is someone gives information to a newspaper or a media outlet. The media outlet reports it.
You immediately turn to me and say, "I need you to respond to our reporting." That's not the way this process works. And so, I want you to understand. No, that's not the way the process is going to work.
REPORTER: What's the process --
RUBIO: Well, first of all, the process doesn't work like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: Okay, let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA. My panel's here.
CNN contributor, host of "The New York Times'" "The Interview", Lulu Garcia-Navarro; CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg; CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist Paul Begala; and CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings.
Welcome to all of you.
All right, who would like to go first? Because you all had a lot of reaction going on over there -- Paul.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's literally how the system works. He's the Secretary of State. The ambassador to Greece works for him.
She's the subject of a very scandalous story. She may be perfectly -- but he's got to have a better answer than that. And keep in mind, we're 25 days for an election. Cost of living is everything, 37 percent of Americans can't put their hands on 400 bucks, according to the Federal Reserve, 400 bucks.
And this ambassador is -- not yet, an ambassador nominee when she does it, is allegedly asking for 100 grand from some guy in Kentucky. Honey, please.
I mean, it's a bad look. And this is why I think John Ossoff, Senator from Georgia, is onto something when he starts calling them Mar-a-Lago Mafia, telling people, like, there's separate rules for the Trumps, and then it's separate rules for you. And that's a bad look.
HUNT: It's interesting to me that this story comes out, and Marco Rubio just happens to be in Greece in the same frame as Kimberly Gilfoyle, Jonah Goldberg.
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah -- well, first of all, I just will say, I love this story so much, I want to take it to the prom. But beyond that, look, you may be right, she may be perfectly innocent, all that kind of stuff.
Thoreau has this great line where he says, some circumstantial evidence is very compelling as when you find a trout in the milk.
(LAUGHTER)
[16:05:00]
GOLDBERG: It is very difficult to think of a set of circumstances where it was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they made such a big deal about this, right? And what I want to know is like, if she's saying to people, donors, don't paper this, right? This, it's suggestive that this is not the first donor she's had conversations with about being a ride or die person or any of these other things.
It's so evocative of the general milieu of Trump world that when Paul says you can have a better answer than that for Rubio, I'm not sure that's true. Like what would be a better answer than I don't want to talk about this?
BEGALA: Which is, she works for me, we're going to review this.
GOLDBERG: Yeah.
BEGALA: This is a troubling story. She may be perfectly innocent, but we're going to have -- he's got investigators, he's got security. He's the secretary of state, he's probably got 40,000 employees.
GOLDBERG: As a matter of civics, I agree with you. But I'm just not sure in the political reality that he had a lot of good options.
HUNT: Well, and we're talking a lot about the specifics here, Scott Jennings, but there is a big picture component to this, right? Which is that she was doing this for a reason, right? She thought that she could get someone that was contributing to President Trump's campaigns and various apparatus to give her a bunch of money because she was trying to tell him that she could give him something in return, right? I mean, how does that go over in Trump's world?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Pass.
(LAUGHTER)
GOLDBERG: That's not how the process is going to be.
HUNT: Unfortunately, Scott --
JENNINGS: All right, fine.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: All right, unbelievable.
OK. Here's what I think -- it's extremely unseemly, these text messages. There's no other way to read it. Again, may not be illegal. Has to be investigated.
I assume that at the State Department that is the next thing that will happen when he talks about a process, I assume what he meant was there will be a process by which we look into this, gather our own information, and then we will report to you when we have some findings that aren't just us getting a hit on a tarmac with a newspaper report.
I think that's actually perfectly fair. But if I were in her shoes right now, I would be considering what I wanted to tell the president, the secretary of state about my future because When you're in an appointed position like this and you hold a position of trust with the government, and then you become a distraction or an embarrassment to your principals, that's a problem.
And if this story continues to spiral or more bad information were to come out, only she would know that. And she needs to be transparent with her principles about that. HUNT: Lulu?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I'm not going to pass.
(LAUGHTER)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm not a government official. Listen, I'm very curious as to why she said -- why he said my wife would get in trouble for this. This also opens up an entire Pandora's box of questions about this transaction and their relationship writ large.
That said, obviously this is hugely unseemly. Obviously, it's deeply problematic, if true. And I will also add, I suspect that Donald Trump really will not embrace this.
We saw already what happened when two of his very close aides were -- you know, sort of there was a story that they had gone off to a very small country that most people have never heard of to work with their pro-Russian government on the elections there, and they made a lot of money doing it. And he did not like that. And so, I think this is another story coming at a crucial time that will probably not please the president, with good reason.
HUNT: To your point about why he did or didn't do it, it turns out he actually revealed the real reason, Eric Deter said that he didn't give her the money. Apparently, he didn't have the money. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETER: I finally told her -- by the way, this is a real reason, I didn't have it at the time. I didn't have $100,000 at the time. It was the worst time. So I used the wife excuse, and I didn't bear.
And you know what's funny about this? This friendship that I had with her, she's calling me "babe" and "honey" and all this stuff, I never heard from her again, never heard from her again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So there's a lot to take away from this man in that appearance. What does it say to you about the fact that this is the guy she's asking for the money from?
BEGALA: Why? No, seriously. Why?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: That was the thing that I was wondering about. Why him?
JENNINGS: I think it's because he had paid her before. You know, he's a Kentuckian, and he used to organize this event where he would pay speakers to come and speak at it. I think she was one of them, among other people.
So, I think -- I think maybe because he had shown in the past that he had an ability to send her money for relatively little work going to make a speech in Kentucky, maybe he thought, she thought he would be willing to do it again as well as what I've surmised.
BEGALA: He seemed to want some sort of access to the Trump administration. She seems to promise that in these texts he released, right?
JENNINGS: Well, according to what I've read, yes, there were very specific things that he wanted out of the Trump administration.
[16:10:05]
And there's some reporting today that he was even telling the Trump administration last week, I want you to do certain things for me, and if you don't, I'm going to make trouble for you, which obviously he has now done this by -- I mean, I don't know where these text messages came from. I have my -- I have my ideas, though. I mean, the fact that it came out while Rubio was in Greece, I mean, that would speak to a rather vindictive opportunity.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Politics is such an ugly business. It's remarkable.
HUNT: Let's actually watch what you're talking about there, about what he was trying to do with the White House. He walked through it for us. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETER: On Thursday last week, I sent an e-mail to Susie Wiles, Don, Jr. and Kimberly Guilfoyle. And I laid out what I was going to do.
And I said, this is my last attempt to get you guys to help these Durrani victims. I said, you got till five o'clock until Monday. Five o'clock until Monday rolled around, didn't hear anything. Boom. I sent it all out. I gave them one last opportunity, and they ignored me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JENNINGS: So, extortion, is that -- I mean, is that -- or an ultimatum?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: What victims was he talking about? I'm so sorry.
JENNINGS: It has to do with the Pakistani physician that he wants to be, I guess, brought back to the country to face sort of criminal justice proceedings.
HUNT: That's correct, yes.
JENNINGS: But basically, he threat-- sounds to me like he's threatening the government with political retribution if they don't do what he wants them to do, and then he followed through on it, it sounds like.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm so glad he's giving so much clarity to this that he's like, just, every question we have, he's like, well, actually, we got a plan to explain. He's explained this.
BEGALA: There's a lot of time. All year we've been talking about cost of living, cost of living, cost of living. And it's huge.
I'm watching all over the country corruption catching up to that. And the smart Democrats, my friend James Talarico, are wedding the two. Talarico says we have a cost of living crisis because we have a corruption crisis.
And it's working. People -- the Gallup poll, highest in American history, the percentage of people think the government's corrupt. It's 89 percent. I'd like to meet the other 11. But 89, it was about 65 under Obama. A lot of people think the government's corrupt all the time.
But this is the highest in history. And I know there are Republicans all across the country who have nothing to do with this. This is going to hurt them in their racism.
HUNT: Yeah, Jonah?
GOLDBERG: Yeah, I mean, look, part of it, this is why I was talking about this can't be the only kind of person in Guilfoyle's orbit, never mind Trump Jr.'s orbit, lots of other people's orbit, is that when you basically start an administration where you put it out that, you know, open for business for this kind of stuff, right?
Like, we all know people who, because of their access to the Trump administration from K Street and from lobbying and whatnot, you know, when pardons are for sale, all that kind of stuff, when you send the signal that you're incredibly transactional and don't care about charges of corruption and all that kind of stuff, which Trump has basically admitted. He said, you know, the reason why I don't care about this stuff is because I did it the right way before and I never got any credit for it. So why bother?
You attract very transactional people like this dude into your orbit. And there's just no way that he's unique in all of it.
HUNT: Well, speaking of how transactional he is, we also can show you a clip of him saying all of the things that he wanted from Kimberly Guilfoyle, but that she refused to do for him. So, apparently, she failed to provide him with the outcome of the transactions that he was looking for. Let's watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETER: I finally stood up to her and I said, Kimberly, you haven't got me on Tucker. You haven't helped me at all. Oh, I even wrote a song. I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
INTERVIEWER: The Kid Rock song, the Kid Rock song.
DETER: I fought a cage -- yeah, I fought a cage fight. I wrote a song called Kentucky Outlaw, which is a badass song. I wrote it for Kid Rock or Eric Church. Kid Rock DJ'd at her Christmas party. I mean, and I was invited to the Christmas party. I attended her birthday party. I mean, I was her friend. I said, can you get this song, these lyrics,
to Kid Rock for me? She never even -- she never even did that for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JENNINGS: Let me just tell you what the Republicans are going to do, lower taxes.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: Smaller government.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: Domestic energy production. And we're not going to turn the government over to these godless socialists. That's what we're not going to do.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: You said Talarico's -- he's not saying anything. He's been out of pocket for 12 days. Where is your guy?
BEGALA: He's running --
JENNINGS: That's what they call pivoting, by the way.
(LAUGHTER)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, there's no way -- there's no graceful way out of this particular thing because you have all the elements here of text messages. The guy at the center of it giving this kind of interview, which is like wildly entertaining. There's Kid Rock, there's a song, there's Kimberly Guilfoyle. It is --
HUNT: Donald Trump's television producer could not have produced it better himself.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah.
HUNT: All right. On that note, coming up, both candidates running for Texas governor say they feel good about their campaigns, but only one, of course, will feel that way on election night.
[16:15:05]
We're going to talk with the Democrat Gina Hinojosa live on THE ARENA this hour.
Plus, inside new CNN polling that shows two deep red states in play as Democrats try and win back the Senate majority.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH TUREK (D), IOWA SENATE CANDIDATE: I'm hearing from Iowans saying, I'm struggling just to keep food on the table, a roof above my head, pay my electric bill, and pay my gas bill. And again, that is because of Ashley Hinson voting five times in favor of these chaos tariffs, seven times in favor of this war. Iowans out there, when you're struggling at the pump, that is because of Ashley Hinson's.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TROY JACKSON (D), MAINE SENATE CANDIDATE: President Obama was someone that I really respected.
[16:20:02]
I disagree with him on some things. I disagree with him on trade issues. But I'm happy to have his endorsement. I mean, if Senator Collins had President Obama's character, we wouldn't be in this mess right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Troy Jackson, Maine's Democratic Senate candidate, earning an endorsement from former President Barack Obama here in the final weeks of his bid to unseat Senator Susan Collins. That backing comes as a new CNN poll shows Democrats are competitive, if not leading, in places that people really didn't expect them to be -- Iowa, Ohio, et cetera.
Obama's new ad for Jackson, just one of two dozen that he recorded in an effort to boost battleground candidates up and down the ballot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: In this economy, we need a fighter like Troy, a fifth-generation logger. Troy worked 80 hours a week and still struggled to get by. So as Maine Senate president, he fought to raise wages, lower the cost of prescription drugs, and provide free lunch to every student in the state.
After Roe was overturned, Troy helped protect the right to an abortion in Maine. Do not sit this one out. Get out there and vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. So, Paul Begala, the president, former president, obviously making this push here in the final weeks. Troy Jackson, interestingly, wanted to make note of the places where he disagreed with President Obama.
What does that say and what impact do you think his support has here in the final stretch?
BEGALA: I think President Obama, former president, was a huge asset for the Democrats. You could send him anywhere. Like, I'd gladly love to see him campaign in Texas. He could go to Maine. He could go -- he's going to Michigan for Abdul El-Sayed, who roundly
criticized him bitterly and I think falsely when he was president, President Obama. President Obama's a big man than I -- he lets it go.
Hugely, he's having a fundraiser in Dallas for three or four Senate candidates not including specifically excluding the Senate candidate in his own state, Ken Paxton.
And other than that, it's not his job to do this. It's not Obama's job, right? But the Democrats have a huge asset in Barack Obama, and they're using it, I'm glad.
HUNT: Yeah. Jonah Goldberg, when you look at some of the numbers in these places where Democrats are hoping they're going to be more competitive, I mean, in the Senate race in Ohio, it seems like Sherrod Brown has some clear advantages. It's less clear in Iowa.
Where do you think Democrats are getting more traction and why?
GOLDBERG: Yeah, I think big picture. Iowa is a tough one, but it's very interesting to me that Democrats seem to be overperforming in red states and underperforming in blue. And to me, that's a sign of nature healing a little bit. Like, if you had said six months ago they're going to pull money, they're going to -- the Republicans are going to give up in North Carolina and husband their resources in Kansas, you would have what -- you know, Kansas, when the last time they elected a Republican Senate, 1932?
BEGALA: 1932.
GOLDBERG: So, like George McGill.
And Kansas is an interesting case because Kansas has always been more Republican than it's been conservative. But the -- you know, this is the first time Trump has ever been underwater on approval on the economy. And I think that -- and particularly you look at things like diesel prices, fertilizer prices, the places where the problems with the economy are hitting hardest are at the core of Trump's sort of red state coalition, rural voters. And in places like Maine, where you have a Republican candidate who has got their own ID, their own brand that's separate from Trump's, she's actually doing pretty well.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think the big issue, as it always is, is turnout. And the big question is, we know that Democrats are motivated, but how -- I'm not convinced just personally that there is going to be a blue tsunami. But if Republican voters are pissed off and stay home, that is going to be, I think, something that --
GOLDBERG: Charlie Cook calls it a red undertow, because the Democrats are still unpopular. And I think that's a good way to think about it.
JENNINGS: I do think individual campaigns and individual candidates still matter here. You look in Michigan. There are a lot of Democratic voters in Michigan. Jewish Democrats, African-American Democrats, they are in no way, shape, or form sold on El-Sayed yet. You go over to Minnesota where Peggy Flanagan is drastically
underperforming what you would expect a Democrat candidate there because she's been part of the fraud and corruption of Minnesota state government for so long. So, you have this overlay of the national circumstances.
But then in individual races, I think the Democrats are struggling a little bit with some of the people that they have nominated. I don't think Troy Jackson is any great shape up in Maine.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Is the people though or is it that because the people just are angry at whomever has been in power because they blame everyone for their for their for their problems in the sense that it's the idea of like the incumbency issue that so that would explain why in Democratic-leaning state whoever has been in power because they blame you know, everyone for their for their for their problems in the sense that it's the idea of like the incumbency issue.
That -- so that would explain why in Democratic-leaning states, Democrats are struggling. But in Republican states, Democrats are doing better.
JENNINGS: Well, El-Sayed's no incumbent right now. I mean, I think the problem he has with Jewish Democrats up there is that they're afraid for their lives in many cases all over the country. And with African-Americans, what you hear in some of the focus groups that are in the public domain is that he has been totally non-responsive to their community and the things that they want to talk about, while Mike Rogers is actively reaching out to them and saying, we don't have to agree on everything, but I will listen to you, and that's something El-Sayed's being criticized for up there.
But he's no incumbent. I think he just has problems with key parts of the Democratic coalition because of his own positions or his own arrogance.
GOLDBERG: And also in Democratic-leaning states, the DSA or DSA- aligned kind of candidates had more power in primaries, and so you get someone like Sayed, who I think is the worst choice for the general election than his opponent was. You look at places where Democrats are in power, it's the incumbency thing I think is real, but it also means that the left-wing base of the Democratic Party, which is not popular with median voters, had more sway and they get more of the candidates that they wanted.
BEGALA: And in a normal year, I don't know if El-Sayed could overcome that.
GOLDBERG: Right.
BEGALA: This is not a normal year. This is not going to be a win. It's not going to be a wave. It's going to be a wipeout.
In 112 years, Kansas has sent one guy, my party, George McGill, to the Senate, 112 years. And the Democrat has tied her head there in Kansas, where they hunt us down with dogs? I mean, this thing, I have -- I've done this 40 years, I've never seen a year like this and I'm often wrong but I'm never in doubt. It is going to be a wipeout.
(LAUGHTER)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: All right then.
HUNT: Get a tattoo.
BEGALA: Right across my giant forehead.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Oh, I said it a year ago, I'll send you the clip.
HUNT: All right. I mean, some things have changed then. Listen --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Often wrong, never in doubt.
BEGALA: Right.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: That also has to be there.
BEGALA: That's me, Lulu. You know me.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, listen, I think, you know, you're talking about the challenges that Michigan Democrats have in their candidates, and obviously these Senate races are more candidate-driven than House races that are traditionally driven simply by the national environment.
And that really is the question here, because it's -- let's watch Mike Rogers, who's the Republican, and in many ways, Mike Rogers really represents a generic Republican, he's well known in the state, he has actually underperformed Trump when he's been on the ballot in Michigan, but he doesn't necessarily stand out in ways that voters might find particularly offensive, et cetera.
He runs that way on the ballot, and what he's fighting is the national environment and the fact that voters are clearly blaming President Trump for their economic circumstances. Watch this ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN SENATE CANDIDATE: Here in Michigan, we know that Canada is not our enemy. We need to end this tariff war now. As Michigan senator, I'll bring both parties together to lower your prices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And that's really the question. I mean, Paul and Scott, it's, you know, can El-Sayed overcome the challenges that he has in mending fences inside the Democratic Party, or can Mike Rogers overcome a national environment that's horrible for him?
JENNINGS: Well, I think candidates in a lot of places are, you know, you did the general election, you find value in reaching out to independents by saying, I don't really care which party I have to take on, I'm going to do what's best for my state. That's what Rogers is doing for Michigan. That's --
HUNT: If you're from Michigan -- my family's from Michigan. Canada is next door. You can make a wrong turn and accidentally go to Canada.
JENNINGS: But this is an argument specifically designed to reach independence in his state. Collins, this is how she operates in Maine. She's the most bipartisan senator in Washington for a reason, because that's what the people of Maine expect her to do.
So, I'm not surprised to see candidates anywhere -- I mean, you do see some Democrats out there trying to take on a little bit of their left wing --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But it's a little late breaking for Mike Rogers to be taking that position now. I mean, we are a few weeks out of the election and --
JENNINGS: You think he should stop campaigning?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, I think the idea of the tariffs -- he is -- this idea of him coming out and speaking against the tariffs, he's been pretty quiet on that up until now. Now, he's making a late breaking case about this and I -- you know -- and let me just say, it can backfire for him because why? He's reminding people that tariffs are a product of Donald Trump, and he's a Republican.
HUNT: And they build cars in Michigan. They used to, I guess.
BEGALA: I was talking about how great is President Obama's campaigning, and he is. He's not our greatest asset. President Trump is.
This is structural. Lulu, you refer to this. When you have the House, the Senate, the White House, you're going to have a correction. That's why I'm 100 percent certain it's a win, at least.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Right.
BEGALA: Because you always say, I've worked for Bill Clinton, we lost 54 seats. President Bush lost 31. President Obama lost 63. Trump lost 41 in his last midterm. He was at 45 percent.
He's out there in our face, even though he's the problem, he has caused our pain. He needs to hide. His staff needs to tell him, you know, we have that new bunker under your white trash Jeffrey Epstein ballroom, sir. Why don't you go in there and then lock him in?
Because that's the only chance Mike Rogers and these Republicans have. With Trump in our face, he's killing his own party by doing that. I don't know if he's like a secret plant or what, but I want to send him a fruit basket.
[16:30:00] GOLDBERG: Yeah, it seems to me like this is the first time that nationalizing the election -- nationalizing politics is hurting Republicans in a while. The last time a party had all three branches of government going into a midterms and didn't lose one of those branches was 1978. So, odds are, just historical trends are really against them.
HUNT: Yeah, for sure.
All right, coming up here in THE ARENA, new details on a former Trump aide who was a star witness, if not the star witness, before the January 6th Committee. Inside the report that the DOJ might be getting closer to bringing federal charges against Cassidy Hutchinson.
Plus, the Democrat running to run Texas is here with us live. We're going to talk with Gina Hinojosa as polls continue to show a tight race against sitting Governor Greg Abbott.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: I got -- I got to be honest with you. I feel pretty good about where things are. I know what's going on under the surface. I know what trends look like. I feel pretty good about my position. Gomer, I'm not concerned at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:35:24]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: When he says things like he wants to use the Department of Justice to go after his enemies, when he says things like he did on Truth Social the other day, that he wants to curtail freedom of the press for certain channels and that sort of thing, you take him literally. You think he actually means it, and in a second term, he would do that.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE AIDE: I think that Donald Trump in a second term does not have any -- would not have guardrails.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. New reporting this afternoon that the Justice Department is seeking a federal criminal indictment of Cassidy Hutchinson on charges of lying to Congress. Hutchinson was the top aide to former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows at the conclusion of the first Trump administration and was a star witness, if not the star witness, for the January 6th Committee.
Sources told Punchbowl News that the DOJ's Civil Rights Division has brought evidence to a federal grand jury and is expected to present more evidence and additional witnesses later this month. Hutchinson has not been subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury. CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig joins our panel now.
So, Elie, what do you make of all of this, and how do you understand what actually may be real here, and what's potentially an example of this president simply trying to get his DOJ to go after his perceived enemies?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Kasie, there's no mystery about what Donald Trump wants because he has said it publicly many times over. As recently as 2024, he has publicly called for the prosecution of Cassidy Hutchinson. Now, apparently, according to the reporting, what they're focusing on is whether she perjured herself during that testimony. I will say this, perjury charges are much tougher to make by prosecutors than I think people ordinarily understand.
In order to make a perjury charge, you have to show a specific answer that the person gave that was false, that was intentionally false, and you have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And so much of the testimony Cassidy Hutchinson gave when she testified in Congress back in 2022, by her own statement, she said, this is hearsay. I didn't witness this. Somebody told me this. Somebody told me that.
So, what they're going to have to do, if it comes down to a he said, she said, yes, I was No, I did not tell her that. That's really hard to prove as a prosecutor beyond a reasonable doubt that she's lying. But they're going to put it before a grand jury, it seems, and a grand jury will have at least the first crack at deciding whether to indict.
HUNT: So, Elie, I want to show everyone -- remind everyone one of the things the president has continued to focus in on in her testimony. And that, of course, is when the president is taken, is driven, moved from the Ellipse, where he gives that speech, to the U.S. Capitol, or he wants to go to the Capitol. And this was Hutchinson's recounting of when she says that he lunged for the steering wheel of the car to try to make happen something that the Secret Service wasn't allowing to happen.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUTCHINSON: The president said something to the effect of, I'm the effing president. Take me up to the Capitol now. To which Bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the West Wing. The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm, said, Sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We're going back to the West Wing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And, of course, the president then wrote on his Truth Social platform in 2024, "Our great Secret Service has totally crushed Cassidy Hutchinson's made-up stories about me roughing up a Secret Service agent from the back seat of The Beast. Has she now changed her testimony? Will she be prosecuted for what she did and said?" And he goes on to talk about the committee.
Elie Honig, is this example of the hearsay that you're talking about? Or how do you understand this piece of the story?
HONIG: Yes, that's the perfect example, because Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony that we saw just there, she's not saying I witnessed this. She's saying that a guy who was in the Secret Service, this guy Tony Ornato, gossiped this to me, told me this. And so, the question isn't did that event ever happen inside The Beast, the White House vehicle, or not. The question is, did this guy Ornato tell her that or not?
And so, if Cassidy and says, yes, Ornato, gossip this. He told me this story. And then Ornato says, "I never told her that", I don't know how you're going to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, because again, it would be a different story if she said, "I was standing right there and I witnessed this thing happen. I saw it" and then they could prove it didn't happen. Then you'd have a problem.
But here again, it's just the he -- literally a he-said, she-said.
[16:40:00]
That's real tough for prosecutors.
HUNT: Yeah.
Jonah Goldberg, what are the big-picture implications of the government going after Cassidy Hutchinson in this way?
GOLDBERG: Yeah, I think this is one of these examples, and there are lots of them, of the process being the punishment. I think it's very unlikely, for the reasons Elie was saying, that she'll get -- it'll go to trial and she'll get convicted of something or anything like that.
But these things are wildly expensive. They're incredibly stressful. And I think that part of this is just Trump's own obsession with punishing his enemies, part of it is sending a signal that's not entirely unuseful going into the last few years of his administration that this is what happens when you become my enemy. It has a nice silencing effect on other people.
I think politically, these guys can answer better than I can, but doesn't feel like this is the best story 28 days before the midterm vote. I mean, it doesn't scream affordability. But that's just me.
HUNT: Or seem to have anything to do with it.
BEGALA: Yeah, I think you're right. This is an amazing, heartbreaking, shocking pattern. It really is. Letitia James, the state attorney general of New York, went after Trump and the Justice Department tried to go after her.
Jim Comey, who was the head of the FBI under Trump in his first term. Jack Smith, the special prosecutor, Lisa Cook and Jay Powell from the Fed were targeted for a while, all of them critics. I don't know if I can find a single Trump supporter who's done
anything wrong. They must all be purer than the driven snow. So it is, again, this whole sense that there's two systems. There's one for the Mar-a-Lago mafia and then there's one for the rest of us.
JENNINGS: Look, I don't know what the truth of the incident is. Other than this, she testified that this story happened and she was told about the story and the two Secret Service agents came forward almost immediately and said that never happened and we would have never told anybody that that happened. I assume that's what's at the center of this, as we pointed out here.
And you know, ultimately a grand jury is going to have to look at it and decide whether they believe in the perjury. I'll let Elie handle the lawyering. But that is clearly what's at the center of it. She told a story that became, by the way, part of the lore of January the 6th that Trump and these Secret Service agents have completely denied. And obviously, he's been bent out of shape about it, but now, you know, there's a legal process in play. I don't know how it's going to end.
HUNT: Elie, quick last word.
HONIG: So, no matter what, if she gets indicted, Cassidy Hutchinson will absolutely bring a motion to dismiss based on vindictive prosecution. And it doesn't get a whole lot clearer than when the president openly tweets, "Hey, I want her indicted."
And as Paul pointed out, the record of success on these vindictive prosecution cases is essentially zero. I actually do not include John Bolton, who was on that graphic. I think there's evidence that that predated the Trump administration, and that was a valid case. That resulted in a guilty plea.
But all the others have failed, and I do wonder at what point this administration gets tired of batting 0.000 on these cases.
HUNT: So far, they have not, it seems.
Elie Honig, always great to see you, sir. Thank you for being here. See you soon.
Ahead here in THE ARENA, we're going to be live with a candidate running to become the first Democrat elected governor of Texas in nearly four decades. Gina Hinojosa is here live.
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[16:47:35]
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I will not let my legacy of having the highest vote in the history of Texas be tarnished or destroyed. If they get in, they will open your borders and let the entire world
pour into our country like they did before, and we can't let that happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: President Trump back now in Washington after campaigning in San Antonio, Texas, last night, where he sought to boost support for GOP Senate candidate Ken Paxton. who, according to recent polls, has fallen behind his Democratic challenger, James Talarico.
One person who was notably missing from the San Antonio rally last night? The current Texas governor, Greg Abbott, who cited previous scheduling conflicts. Abbott himself is in a tight reelection race against Gina Hinojosa.
Abbott going on offense against the Democratic state representative earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBOTT: She supports sanctuary cities in the state of Texas. She also voted against the law to deny bail to illegal immigrants who murder Texans. That is unacceptable to the safety of our state.
And Gina Hinojosa voted to defund police. That's outrageous. That's not Texas. I don't know of any legislator in Austin, Texas, who's more hostile to law enforcement than Gina Hinojosa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And joining me now in THE ARENA is Texas State Representative Gina Hinojosa, who is also, of course, the Democratic candidate for governor.
We do need to note here at CNN that Gina's sister, Xochitl Hinojosa, is a commentator, a CNN commentator. Viewers have likely seen her right here on this panel.
Gina, I'm very grateful to have you. Thank you so much for being here.
I want to start there with the governor's comments. What is your response to what he had to say?
GINA HINOJOSA (D), TEXAS GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Listen, the governor lies about my record, and that is why he refuses to debate me. He is hiding from his record. He is hiding from the voters of Texas. I today called on the governor to meet me in a week at the governor's mansion, October 15th at 10:00 a.m. Central Time to debate my plan for Texas which is to secure the American dream and his record which is a record of failure here in Texas because he has refused to accept the invitation of four different networks that have invited us for a debate.
[16:50:01] Never, never has this governor refused to debate his opponent, but also he'd never received a losing poll in any election where he's run for governor, and he's received four in the last four weeks. So, he has taken to lying about me and lying about my record.
HUNT: As we discuss public safety, it's worth noting that the man who was convicted of killing 13 people in that 2009 Fort Hood mass shooting is set to be executed by firing squad, and Secretary Hegseth has suggested that that execution should be public. What's your position on that?
HINOJOSA: I don't know what that is. That's not America. Listen, we all want safe communities. We can do away with the political theater.
There should be no politics involved in public safety. We just need to be serious about making sure our communities are safe, that we prioritize public safety. I was proud to put out an ad where I have law enforcement officers supporting my run for governor.
It is why you see Greg Abbott responding the way he has, unhinged, and that will be my priority, is to keep Texans safe.
HUNT: Part of why capital punishment has also been part of the conversation lately is because of the execution in Tennessee that went so horribly wrong. Christa Pike's failed lethal injection. You, of course, as governor, would play a role in commutations, in clemency.
What is your position on capital punishment Texas just executed, carried out the nation's first execution since what happened with Christa Pike? Where do you stand on what the state should be doing considering all this?
HINOJOSA: Listen, I think it's terrible what has happened in this criminal justice system. I think it is inhumane what has happened. I also believe that there should not be just blanket positions on these things.
And so, as governor, I will take that responsibility seriously. Look at each case on a case-by-case basis. But generally, I just think our criminal justice system is broken here in Texas and beyond. And I think it's because we've had politicians for too long playing politics and not being serious about public safety.
HUNT: So, you would not rule out capital punishment in a blanket way?
HINOJOSA: What I would do is take every case on a case-by-case basis.
HUNT: But again, you're saying that there may be some cases in which you could support the death penalty.
HINOJOSA: Again, I will have to look at the facts of each case. Listen, I personally do not support the death penalty, but as governor, I think it is my responsibility to look at each case individually. That is the responsibility given to the governor of Texas, one I take very seriously. And so, no, I'm not going to sit here and make a blanket statement
about what I will do, because I think every situation is unique and needs that special attention.
HUNT: Okay, just to put it-- so just to put the finer point on it, you personally are opposed to the death penalty, but in a public decision-making context, you may not abide by that belief?
HINOJOSA: Again, I will reiterate my position, which is taking each case on a case-by-case basis. I think that's what Texans expect of their governor to take that responsibility seriously and is what I will do when I'm governor.
HUNT: All right, let's talk a little bit about the money that has been coming in to your race, because you have had support from prominent Democratic groups, including the Democratic Governors Association, including from Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker and some of the operations. that he has. Is that money too little too late or not quite?
HINOJOSA: Listen, Greg Abbott has spent $80 million in paid communications. I've spent $7 million and the last four major polls have me winning. And so, we don't have to spend dollar for dollar what Greg Abbott spends. We have already demonstrated -- demonstrated that Texans want change, but we have to spend enough money to tell people who I am, what I'm about. It's expensive.
Texas is the high rollers table. It's a high cost to play here at the high rollers table, but we've been dealt a phenomenal hand and no, it is not too late to invest in Texas.
It is expensive because the payout is so big, right? Texas is the prize and if we're not playing at the high rollers table in 2026, what are we even doing as Democrats? We have an opportunity generation to win. And that is why we are doubling down in these final days of the election.
HUNT: All right. Gina Hinojosa, thank you very much for spending some time with us today. I really appreciate it.
HINOJOSA: Thank you.
[16:55:00]
Great to be with you.
HUNT: All right. We'll be right back.
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HUNT: All right. Thanks very much to my panels. It was a fun day today here in THE ARENA. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Thanks to all of you at home for joining as well. Don't forget, you can now stream THE ARENA live. You can catch up whenever you want to in the CNN app. Just go ahead and scan the QR code below. You can also catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcast. You can
follow the show on X and Instagram. We are @TheArenaCNN.
But do not go anywhere. Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".
Hi, Jake. Happy Thursday.
