Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
The Anthrax Investigation
Aired October 10, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: When it was one person, it seemed possible it was an innocent if bizarre coincidence. When a second person was exposed to anthrax, innocent explanations were a stretch for even the optimists among us. Now there are three and a criminal investigation. And while all the responsible parties say, be calm, who can honestly say there isn't a knot in the pit of your stomach when you think about this anthrax case?
So we see this building in South Florida differently tonight. This is a crime, scene pure and simple. The killer remains unknown and the weapon, anthrax, remains invisible. It is the fear that is palpable.
Of things that are easier to understand, U.S. forces today pounded targets in Afghanistan for the fourth day: the most intense attacks yet on the Taliban's base city of Kandahar. Sources say special operations forces may soon be on the ground.
We know that these are the faces of America's most wanted. They are 22, rather than 10. The U.S. offering up to $5 million each for the capture of any one of these suspected terrorists.
A quick whip around the world again tonight to get us started. Susan Candiotti in Florida is following the anthrax scare for us. Susan, the headline.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, a big development tonight. Now the FBI is launching a criminal investigation after disclosing that a third case of anthrax has been found. The patient a 35-year-old female employee. So far all three cases limited to that publishing house in Florida. So far no evidence that the cases are tied to the September 11th attacks. FBI now believes it may have traced -- isolated strain to one found in Iowa in the 1950s.
BROWN: Susan, we will be right back with you.
First to northern Afghanistan. Matthew Chance is on duty there tonight. Matt?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Aaron. Big flashes over Kabul from the north of the city as U.S. strikes take place for a fourth consecutive day. Also positions of the Northern Alliance opening up on the Taliban front line. There's no sign at this stage, though, of their big push deep into Taliban-held territory to advance on the Afghan capital. We are watching from the situation from here.
BROWN: Matt, thank you. We go across the border to Islamabad, Pakistan. Tom Mintier has the watch this evening. Tom.
TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, despite day and nighttime bombing inside Afghanistan, the Taliban apparently remain defiant. The ambassador here saying the air defenses have not be been degraded. This despite seeing the photographs from the Pentagon of now you see it, now you don't. Back to you.
BROWN: Tom, we'll be back to you shortly. Now to Washington. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King is on duty tonight, as always. John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president began his day by brokering a truce -- or at least, perhaps, detente -- with members of Congress in that fight we've been talking about in recent days over sharing classified information. The president spent the rest of his day trying to remind the American people and governments around the world -- friends and not-so-friendly governments around the world -- that Afghanistan is just phase one.
BROWN: A lot of events at the White House, John. We'll be back with you shortly as well. We begin in Florida. Officials in that state said tonight there is no evidence that the outbreak of anthrax is anything but isolated to one building. And we have no reason to doubt that. Still, a third person has been exposed to anthrax, and the testing of hundreds more is far from complete -- which is to say no one knows exactly where this is heading. We go back to Susan Candiotti in South Florida with the latest. Susan.
CANDIOTTI: Hello, Aaron. Big news tonight. The FBI now officially calling this a criminal case, a criminal investigation, after disclosing a third case of anthrax exposure in South Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUY LEWIS, ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY: We are now conducting a criminal investigation into this matter. We have mobilized the full and complete resources of the federal, state, and local governments. I have been in contact with the governor's office. I've been in contact with the Department of Justice. And we are coming together to fight this problem.
Three basic questions that we as criminal investigators want to answer: first, how and when was the bacteria introduced into the building. Secondly, by whom? And thirdly and importantly, why?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: The discovery came after the FBI and Centers for Disease Control began screening about 1,000 employees and visitors to the American Media publishing house in Boca Raton, Florida -- anyone that had been there since August.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. JOHN AGWUNOBI, FLORIDA SECRETARY OF HEALTH: So far, of the 700 that we have reviewed, we have found one positive anthrax culture. And that is in a 37-year-old, I believe. Hold on, I will check. A 35-year-old, forgive me. A 35-year-old female.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: Now, the FBI would not identify the female, nor would they say exactly where she worked in the building. You will recall that Robert Stevens, who died last week of anthrax inhalation, worked as a photo editor. And 73-year-old Ernesto Blanco worked in the mail room. Blanco is currently hospitalized in Miami Hospital for what doctors have said is an unrelated case of pneumonia. He was exposed to the virus and is being treated with antibiotics. The FBI says that the anthrax outbreak so far is limited to the AMI building. At this time, investigators stress they have no evidence, no information to link these cases to the September 11th terrorist attacks.
Meantime, sources say the FBI now believes that it has traced the strain of bacteria to one isolated in Iowa in the 1950s at Iowa State University. It was called the Ames strain. Although testing is not completed, there is no conclusive information, sources say investigators are leaning in that direction.
Now back in the 1950s, Aaron, it seems that this particular strain was shared with number of researchers around the country and around the world. It may also, sources say, have been shared with military experts who may have been exploring its use as weapon. But because this particular strain was shared with so many people, it certainly will make it much harder to trace for investigators who are trying to find out how it got from Iowa originally to South Florida now.
BROWN: Susan, when they say there is no evidence that this is linked to September 11, aren't they also saying it might be, it might not be. They just don't know.
CANDIOTTI: That's correct. They are looking a number of options. They have not been able to tie it to September 11.
BROWN: And when they say, "We think it might be the Ames strain or some variant of the Ames strain, did they then say why it's important that they know that, if that strain has been out there for 40-some years -- 50 years, almost -- and all over the world.
CANDIOTTI: Yes. Because each strain has particular characteristics. And because these particular strains were spread so far and so thin and could have gone so many places, the question is who else acquired it. They try to trace that back to how it eventually got back here to South Florida. And clearly it's going to be a very tough job to try to do that, because this could hold the key to finding out how it wound up on a computer keyboard in the photo editor's office at this publishing house.
BROWN: Susan, thanks. Susan Candiotti in South Florida tonight with the anthrax story. Thank you. We will revisit this as we go along tonight. Obviously, this is a developing story. Much the rest of the night, however, we will spend on what is coming up next in this battle against terror.
At the White House it seems what's next includes a daily reminder that this war is no trip to Grenada, no Kosovo. It is also to say that there is a plan and there is an endgame, even if they don't talk about the specifics of either.
No politician in the country is immune from the scars of Vietnam, bogged down in an endless conflict with no good way out. And when the talk turns to expanding the war out of Afghanistan, the possibilities of a never-ending conflict and a crumbling coalition increase. So what's next? We turn again to Senior White House Correspondent John King. John?
KING: Aaron, soaring popularity -- they believe here at the White House because of the president's growing popularity he can make the case that this will go on for a long time now without any detailed explanation an exit strategy.
One senior official said tonight this would be surgery, not an occupation in Afghanistan, and it's going to take a while. The same official saying the president's biggest challenge now, convincing the American people and others around the world that the campaign in Afghanistan will take a while and that this campaign must inevitably soon expand to many other fronts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): A familiar face leads a new list of most wanted terrorists, but it goes well beyond Osama Bin Laden, well beyond training camps and hideouts in Afghanistan.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For those who join our coalition, we expect results. And a good place to start would be to help us bring these folks to justice. Eventually, no corner of the world will be dark enough to hide in.
KING: Emphasis on eventually. NATO's Secretary General promised the alliance is in the fight to the end. But expanding the war would strain the international coalition, so phase one is Afghanistan. Day four of air strikes, and sources tell CNN special operations missions are increasingly important in the hunt for terrorists and their camps.
Congressional leaders say the president's message over breakfast was so far, so good.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), MINORITY LEADER: This is going to be a long operation. It's clear to me that you use air and you use covert and you use paramilitary operations eventually to get this done.
KING: This anti-American protest is in Indonesia, one of the coming fronts as the campaign expands. The United States says the Abu Sayyaf terrorist network is based there, has close ties to Bin Laden and operations in the Philippines and elsewhere across Asia. The president complained about the Abu Sayyaf network in a meeting with Indonesia's president one week after the attacks on America.
The president of the Philippines will visit the White House next month, and the United States already has received permission to use its former military bases for possible operations there. And sources say recent diplomatic messages to Iran, Iraq and Syria have been unusually blunt.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: The president has reserved the right to follow terrorism to its sources. And to those nations who harbor or provide haven to terrorists, they do so at their risk.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: But first things first is the president's motto. The administration hopes a sustained and successful campaign in Afghanistan will prove the president's resolve and lead to cooperation from nations long blamed either for promoting or at least turning a blind eye to terrorism. As one senior administration official put it tonight, "We have captured their attention. Now the challenge is to convince them it would be best that they cooperate." Aaron.
BROWN: John, one answer to the question: what is next in D.C.? It's much tighter security.
KING: We have seen that at the Capitol tonight. We're not seeing it around the White House at the moment. Certainly since September 11 we have had off-and-on examples of expanding the security bubble around the White House. There are some pedestrians just outside the gate on Pennsylvania Avenue tonight. No vehicle traffic out there for several years now because of the risk of terrorism.
But around the White House, things are relatively normal. We do see more police cars on the street. But the operation tonight to increase security is up at the Capitol, where they have expanded the perimeter quite significantly.
BROWN: And just on another matter. The vice president hasn't been seen much in a while. What do we know? Will we see him soon?
KING: We have not seen him at the White House since Sunday, just moments after the president announced the strikes. He was taken to an undisclosed, secure location. But we are told by sources he is in daily touch with the president, and even today they talked about when might they get back normal. We are told to look in the next day or two to see the vice president back at here at the White House.
BROWN: John, thank you. Senior White House Correspondent John King, we will talk to you again tomorrow. We have much more ahead tonight as the special report continues.
What's next in America's new war? Will it soon move from the skies to the ground, with all the dangers that entails? We'll also look at an economy that may be facing its worst downturn in two decades. What needs to be done? And then there is the good side of the new normal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It made us all stop and think that life is precious and it can be taken away pretty damn quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Priorities changed in an instant. As our CNN special report continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Day four of the air war brought heavy strikes on and around the city of Kandahar. It is something of the Taliban's home town. That's today. But what is next for the military? Here is Military Affairs Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On day four, U.S. bombers shifted focus, moving from disabling air defenses to attacking troops, their barracks, and military maintenance facilities. Warplanes from two U.S. aircraft carriers circled the skies, waiting to strike any movement of Al Qaeda or Taliban forces. The idea, say Pentagon officials, is to keep Bin Laden and his backers on the run.
RET. GENERAL DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: We're going to force some movement. They're going to have to move. They're going to have to talk to each other. They just can't hide in caves and just shut down everything or they're going to lose control of the country.
MCINTYRE: Sources tell CNN that two adult male relatives of Taliban leader Mohammed Omar were among several Taliban leaders already killed on the first night of bombing. Meanwhile, the U.S. aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk, its deck cleared of planes, is arriving in the waters off Pakistan, part of a plan that would put U.S. special forces on the ground.
Sources say the Kitty Hawk will serve as a floating air base for special operations helicopters to ferry U.S. Army commandos into Afghanistan to launch quick- strike, in-and-out raids.
And officials say the United States is working to get permission to use special operations troops already based in Uzbekistan for combat missions, and is hopeful neighboring Tajikistan will agree to that as well, giving the United States several forward bases from which to attack.
GRANGE: If you see any direct action with coalition forces, it will be very quick, raid-type operations, again, against targets of opportunity to accomplish our mission.
MCINTYRE (on camera): Sources say U.S. commanders are reluctant to send low-flying helicopter gunships in direct attacks because of their vulnerability to shoulder-fired missiles, such as U.S. Stingers provided to Afghan rebels during the Cold War. Pentagon sources say in Tuesday's attacks, a B-2 Stealth bomber dropped a 5000-pound bunker-busting bomb design to bore through several layers of concrete on a concentration of Taliban troops and equipment. The new bunker-buster bombs may yet be used to attack the caves where Osama Bin Laden and his followers like to hide. In this case, the idea was to demoralize the Taliban troops with a deadly display of U.S. military might.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: For more on what's next, we turn to CNN consultant retired General Wesley Clark. General Clark is in Washington tonight. General, you get around. It's nice to see you again.
RET. GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN CONSULTANT: Nice to see you, Aaron.
BROWN: You know I'm sort of fascinated by the planning of all this. Would you say that it's gone by the book, that they've turned another page: day one, day two, day four -- here is what it looks like, and not had to alter it at all to this point?
CLARK: That's exactly right. We had the initiative. The Taliban are there. They are under our air -- we can pretty much strike at will. It's a matter of patience. It's a matter of picking them apart, step by step. It's going to be relentless. It's going to be deliberate. And it's going to be deadly for them.
BROWN: All right. So they are turning the page and they know what they are going to do the next day. At what point does turning the page not work any longer? At what point do they have to start improvising a little?
CLARK: Everything that's been done so far has been some manner of innovation, improvisation. The number of targets -- looking at emerging targets. The progress of the Northern Alliance: which direction it goes, how well it fights. The collapse of the Taliban. The road that was cut today. Everything depends on everything else.
But what's important here is that the United States strategy apparently is not directed along a single axis, but has multiple avenues so there is no single point of failure. If the Northern Alliance is successful, that's good. If not, helicopter strikes. If not, air power going in. If not, commando raids. There are many different ways, but the point is, the Taliban is there. They are not going anywhere. And the United States is powerful there.
One other point to make on this: this is only a very small part of United States' overall military power. So it's not matter of an exit strategy, it's not a matter of finishing this before anything else can be done. This can be continued indefinitely.
BROWN: Very briefly, 15 seconds or so. What makes the Pentagon nervous right now? What can go wrong? CLARK: I think the key in this operation is to get the balance of keeping the initiative and measuring the risks. There is no reason to push the operation. There is no reason to take unnecessary risks at this point. But on the other hand, it's helpful to keep the initiative and keep the enemy off balance. You have to get that balance right. And I'm sure that's what the commanders are working on.
BROWN: General Clark, it's nice to see you again. Thank you for your time tonight.
CLARK: Thank you.
BROWN: In a moment, what's next for the country, a country, that is already on high alert. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Ever since the 11th of September, Americans have had a pretty good idea of who Public Enemy Number One is. Today we learned the names and the faces of Public Enemies number two through 22, just one piece of a criminal investigation that stretches around the globe. Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. officials are increasingly dependent on their overseas counterparts as investigators try to find who is responsible for the September 11th terrorist attacks. To help generate even more tips, the Bush administration unveiling a terrorist most wanted list, offering rewards up to $5 million.
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: We're going to spread the names and faces of the most dangerous terrorists across the globe, so that they have nowhere to hide, nowhere to run.
ARENA: The list contains 22 names. It's topped, not surprisingly, by Osama Bin Laden. Two others on the list are top lieutenants of his, Mohammed Atef and Ayman al Zawahri. Sources say they were involved in the September 11th attacks.
Following arrests of some Islamic militants in Spain, the U.S. is asking authorities there to search for eight other men who may also have been involved in the recent attacks. Spain is emerging as a key focal point for investigators. It was apparently used as a meeting point during the planning phase of the hijack attacks.
Investigators are also focusing on other places in Europe, including Britain and Germany, where the plot may have been hatched. A large part of that effort: following the money trail, including, sources say, payments sent by an associate of bin Laden, Sheik Syed (ph), to suspected hijacker Mohamed Atta.
SKIP BRANDON, FORMER FBI DEPUTY ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: The continuing step is to track the above-ground money trail. That's difficult enough. They will also be attacking the underground money trail, the movement of money through -- as has been done for hundreds of years -- though messages, through messengers.
ARENA: The investigation is currently running on two parallel tracks: the first, to bring to justice those involved in the hijackings; but just as important, to prevent future terrorist acts through intelligence.
MINDY TUCKER, JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESWOMAN: Let's go out and find the bad guys before they do anything. That is the prevention side of this, and that is a new mindset for a lot of law enforcement agencies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: While law enforcement remains on high alert, sources say investigators have not yet uncovered any specific plans or targets for another attack on U.S. soil. And despite what U.S. investigators say is an unprecedented level of cooperation, law enforcement sources say the U.S. is not yet armed with enough evidence against anyone to bring indictments for what happened one month ago. Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
BROWN: A month ago, homeland defense meant changing the battery in your smoke detector twice a year. Now it means deciding on which gas mask and which antibiotic and whether to even get on an airplane on all. Some of us remember classroom nuclear attack drills which seemed pretty silly even to a second grader, and discussions about who you would let in your backyard fallout shelter, which didn't seem silly at all. It seemed scary.
Tonight we're closer to the old days than we are to last month. How's that for a life change? What's next at homeland defense from CNN's Jeanne Meserve.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sensors to sniff out hazards in the air, just installed by the FBI in the nation's capitol to detect a biochemical attack. Guards watch over Georgia's Buford Dam.
MICHAEL PARKER, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE ARMY: Are America's water resources and environment at risk? The answer can only be a reluctant, sobering yes.
MESERVE: A congressional hearing on the security of the water supply. Another on risk to food and agriculture. A third on hazardous materials, a fourth on bioterrorism -- all in one day as the nation scrambles to identify its vulnerable assets and shore them up.
The problem is potential targets are everywhere. High up on the list of concerns: nuclear and conventional power plants and the entire utility grid; chemical plants and any place where people gather in large numbers. Since September 11, the reflex has been to throw whatever is needed at the problem. Air patrols are being flown over some of the nation's cities. The national Guard is deployed at airports and train terminals. The Coast Guard is mounting its biggest port security operation since World War II, calling up 2700 reservists and voluntary auxiliary. Can this be sustained?
A Coast Guard spokesman says that is a major concern. It's a drain on human resources and financial resources. Estimates of the impact of homeland security on the federal budget in the past month range from as low as 10 billion to as high as 50 billion or even more.
REP. ROBERT MENENDEZ (D), NEW JERSEY: This isn't an endless pot. The decisions we make -- as important as they are and as necessary as they may be to make sure that we have the security of our homeland and its people -- have consequences in education, have consequences in health care, have consequences in the economy.
DAN CRIPPEN, CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE: Anything we are talking about here is the federal budget.
MESERVE: But the head of the Congressional Budget Office looks at the big picture and says, "We can handle it."
CRIPPEN: Think of it as about $2,00O. Of that 2,000, then what we're talking about increased spending is 50 bucks, or maybe a hundred. But clearly sustainable inside a $2,000 budget.
MESERVE (on camera): The effect of homeland security on state and local budgets varies widely. Some governments say the expense hasn't been that great and they can handle it.
(voice-over): But an official in Portland, Maine, says the impact there will be immense, adding almost $2 million to the budget in a city of just 65,000.
And when all is said and done and the money has been spent, there is a sobering fact: No one predicts that the nation will ever be completely secure.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: If that's the big picture, here's the small one. One city's homeland defense. Now we admit it's not just any city. It's New York City, a town with a gaping hole, thousands of funerals, and fresh scars in that scenes that reminds everyone in the city of what happens when homeland defense fails. So what's next for them, and New York? Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Immediately after the September 11th attacks, New York City police moved to the highest level of security, known as "omega." Officers have been working 12 hour shifts, in many cases, seven days a week; grueling tours of duty, says criminal justice expert Robert Loudon.
ROBERT LOUDON, CRIMINAL JUSTICE EXPERT: There's physical stress, emotional stress, and just the wear and tear on people, on vehicles, on the radio system. It's a constant.
FEYERICK: The question: in a city that experts say will always be a terrorist target, can this intense security be sustained? And if so, over what period? Former New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly.
RAYMOND KELLY, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: You can burn out your officers, no question about it. People need a home life. They need to rest and they need days off.
FEYERICK: Some buildings, from the United Nations to the Empire State Building, have been guarded round the clock. Tunnels and bridges have a nonstop police presence, cars and trucks frequently inspected.
National Guard, some 4,500 strong, have been called in to relieve some of the patrol burden at airports, tunnels, train stations. It's a chance for police to remain at ground zero, looking for some 30 officers still missing, and also to protect the crime scene.
BERNARD KERIK, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: The police officers have been working extremely hard. Sometimes, you know, it can be quite depressing being down there. I think the inspiration of the people they've lost and the family members, their survivors -- I think they're sort of the inspiration that keeps the cops going, keeps them doing what they're doing.
FEYERICK: And while much attention has been focused in and around ground zero, crime in the rest of the city has remained relatively low.
KELLY: I'm told crime is way, way down. It's hard to analyze exactly why, but it seems like this event has traumatized criminals as well.
FEYERICK: The heightened police alert is temporary, but New York Governor George Pataki has announced a new statewide office to identify and respond to possible terrorist attacks. And though the city remains on high alert, New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik recently scaled back officer shifts from 12 hours to a regular eight- hour tour.
(on camera): Experts say there's a very practical reason to scale back hours. Although there has been no specific threat, in this very uncertain climate, no one knows if or when police may be called on again to mobilize.
Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A little more now on homeland defense. We're joined by Michael Cherkasky. He's the CEO of the private security firm Null, Incorporated -- Kroll, Incorporated, rather, and he joins us from Los Angeles.
Thank you, Mr. Cherkasky. It's nice to see you again.
Is what is in our future fortress America?
MICHAEL CHERKASKY, PRESIDENT & CEO, KROLL, INC.: It's not fortress America. That would be a tragic mistakes of ours. To understand the risk and to try to mitigate that risk in the long term is something we need to do, but we can't, we can't overstate this and paralyze our society from moving forward.
BROWN: But as look at number of American cities -- I'm not being facetious here, but there is a kind of fortress America quality about it, and I wonder if that eve make sense in this regard: you couldn't secure every ballpark, every reservoir, every airplane's, every skyscraper. It's not possible.
CHERKASKY: No, it's not possible and what we, as Americans, have to understand is, every day we get in our cars, and there is a risk. Thousands of us die. So, we live with risk every day. We have to understand what the risks are and take appropriate measures.
Right now, we are, unfortunately, in the remedial phase, where we really haven't taken the risks as serious as we should of, and we now understand that. So, we're overreacting to it, or reacting. I mean, it should be a short phase where we have a lot of guards, but I think that the long-term, the long-term phase of this operation will be moving to the things that we do very well. Using technology.
BROWN: While we're talking, I want to tell our viewers that they're about to launch a spy satellite of sorts, a relay satellite. We may show that while that is that going on. But let's just keep going.
Israel, Mr. Cherkasky, has probably got as much experience with homeland security as any country in the world, and they have these daily attacks, and I guess I'm feeling like some of this is futile. Am I just being -- am I in a mood today?
CHERKASKY: I think you're in a mood. It's not futile.
BROWN: OK.
CHERKASKY: It's not futile to be thoughtful. We are not Israel. We don't have the same risks as Israel. We are not surrounded like Israel is. We're not -- we don't have those same kind of issues. We have to assess the problems we have thoughtfully.
Obviously, what happened in Florida recently is a terrible thing, and having anyone die is awful, but Americans shouldn't go out and get gas masks or take antibiotics. We are overreacting to that.
We need to have a national dialogue about what we need to do, and then execute on that. And I think that we can do sensible security things that, in fact, will protect substantially, decrease, mitigate the risks that we have today, give people a sense of security without the kind of fortress -- fortress Israel, cannot come to the United States.
BROWN: Mr. Cherkasky, it's nice talk to you, thanks.
CHERKASKY: Thank you.
BROWN: I hope we revisit this. thank you very much. And, our special coverage continues in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's still hard to fathom that fewer than two dozen killers could have taken the lives of thousands of people. It is also hard to imagine they could have shake the foundations of the world's richest economy. But that's what happened a month ago.
The next step for policy-makers is to figure out how to fix it, and a lot is stacked against them. Fear and unemployment don't exactly put people in a spending mood.
Today one newspaper talked about how New York restaurants are pulling expensive items off the menu because people feel it's just too frivolous to order them. Now the story of one business, though we could have found thousands. It's reported by CNN's bureau chief in Boston, Bill Delaney.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As a gauge of the U.S. economy's future, the future of the Malaysian pancakes at Boston's new Island Hopper Restaurant may be as good as any. If you can still get the pancakes a few months from now.
Well, then Hayden Hong's restaurant, opened late last summer, will have made it in a rising economy. In a sinking economy, hard times. Among the first things to go: delicacies, like Malaysian pancakes.
HAYDEN HONG, CO-OWNER, THE ISLAND HOPPER: Business change dramatically. It's almost overnight, September 11. Once it happened, we just felt like we are totally out of control. It does take away a sense of confidence from everybody, let alone the impact on the bottom line.
DELANEY: For weeks, most every table at the Island Hopper stayed empty, picking up only in the past several days, meaning at this point, business down about 30 percent compared to late summer.
HONG: I think we are still able to survive. The worst case? We will just go down, and basically that's it.
DELANEY: The struggle of so many right now who sell life's little extras. A struggle at the Island Hopper shadowed by death. Lisa Frost, a business associate and customer, left the restaurant after 11:00 the night before she boarded a the jet that crashed into the World Trade Center.
HONG: She was exceptionally nice. She was really sweet and she was very talented.
DELANEY: Terrible times, amid glints in places of getting through.
(on camera): Unemployment surged in Hawaii in September, more than 200 percent, more than 75 percent in Nevada, places tough to get to for most people without flying.
In New England, though, more than 65 million people live within driving distance of most places, and the economy here is showing relative stability.
(voice-over): People still driving into Boston, getting out: in a way, fighting back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's so many tragic things. You have to tell yourself, I need to get out, it's my job to go out to lunch.
DELANEY: A job that may yet keep people like Hayden Hong, who came to the United States 20 years ago with just two suitcases, in business.
Bill Delaney, CNN, Boston.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: One story on the economy and we'll check overseas in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Here is an irony for you: as American forces wait for potential action on the ground in Afghanistan, Pakistani soldiers are already in a shooting war and the Pakistani government is bracing for more violent Islamic protest. Is chaos what comes next for America's frontline allies?
CNN's Tom Mintier keeping eye on the situation. He joins us again from Islamabad -- Tom.
TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, while the bombs and missiles reign down an Afghanistan, the fallout may be measured here in neighboring Pakistan. There is growing concern here that in 24 hours the first Friday will pass since the strikes began, and there is concern that what is going on in Afghanistan will cause problem on the streets of Pakistan cities.
You need to look no further than the newspaper headlines. This morning, "Musharraf sounds warning to extremists in the news, orders swift action against lawbreakers." And then they go on, quite interesting, three core commanders are newly appointed here. There has been a military shake-up which the government says is totally unrelated to what's going on in Afghanistan. But it's interesting that these core commander changes and a lot of the shake-ups that are going on inside the government are in areas that have seen large demonstrations.
Now, the government here saying that if Afghan refugees that they are hosting in this country are indeed involved in the unrest that is starting in the streets, that they will simply put them on buses, take them to the border, and send them back to Afghanistan.
So, there is growing concern here. You look around, even in Islamabad, and they have fortified many of the police checkpoints around the city, re-sandbagged them. There is a concern that what we might see in about 24 hours from now, could be very, very difficult to deal with.
Now, all along, the government has said that these demonstrations are not really representative. They are a small sliver, a small minority, of Pakistan's 140 million population. But it is something of growing concern, something they are really taking preventative action against.
We saw earlier in the week, they locked up three leaders of the opposition from the extremist religious clerics that are seemingly pro-Taliban, basically putting them under house-arrest, trying to, as President Musharraf said in his meeting with reporters the other day, trim off the leaves of a tree, or even taking the branches off.
Of course, he was dealing in talking about terrorism at the time, but it seems to be that's the same tactic they are using with the opposition here; a small number, but growing, and one of great concern -- Aaron.
BROWN: Tom, thank you very much. Nice look at what's going on in Pakistan today, where that country may be headed. We've talked a lot about how everything has change. Well, at least one thing has changed for the good, Candy Crowley up next with the new normal.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It is almost hard to keep track of how many things, big and small, have changed in the four weeks since September 11th.
Here's some examples, though, from recent days. Word that Hollywood filmmakers are helping the U.S. Army imagine new terrorist threats, and how to handle them. Or a report that some in New York's minority neighborhoods now view the police as heroes rather than antagonists.
As part of the new normal that CNN's Candy Crowley has been discovering on the road, what's next for a nation that is infinitely sadder but seemingly more compassionate?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the shadow of the gateway to the west, Randy Will welcomes guests to the St. Louis Hyatt, as he has for 16 years.
RANDY WILL, HYATT: I think people are now a little -- generally more concerned for their fellow man. They are talking more. They are not, you know, they're not in such a big rush to get going.
CROWLEY: Just across the Mississippi, the regulars drop by Billie's Coffee Shop in east St. Louis, Illinois.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody is coming together now. You know, you can see that everywhere. You know, there was a time you couldn't see the flag flying, you know, just on Flag Day. But now, everybody is together.
CROWLEY: In central Indiana, the seeds of Halloween have grown ripe in the field.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe it drew me closer to my wife and to my family. I'm more conscious about my family and how I am the provider and the leader of the home. My life has changed a lot like that, it really has.
CROWLEY: And back east, the ocean roars while the man-made noise inside Atlantic City's Showboat Casino signals business returning to normal, in a world with sudden perspective.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I lose control driving a car, that road rage that you get into, I have to back off and say it's not worth it anymore.
CROWLEY: It's true what they say, life does go on. But it is different now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It made us all stop and think. You know, life is precious and it can be taken away, pretty damn quickly.
CROWLEY: Everybody who's ever lost someone they love understands that death crystallizes life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing is promised to you. You just never know how much time you have left. You have to live it to the fullest.
CROWLEY: What's ahead now seems a life both more precious and more precarious. Scarier and sweeter, the people in it dearer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I kiss him good-bye and say be careful. And, I used to say have a good day, and now I tell him to be careful.
CROWLEY: What's ahead seems a life in which everything cuts both ways. The stranger beside you could be a threat.
Do you look at people differently now? Do you feel like there's a fear there that wasn't there before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, most definitely. Yes I look at everybody now. You have to.
CROWLEY: And that stranger beside you could save your life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were at the doctor's office yesterday and we even in the elevator, we were all strangers in that elevator, but we were all talking. You know, like this is one -- this is us, America, Americans.
CROWLEY: From Atlantic City to points west, life goes on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You come down here and they'd have -- they used to have a lot of rides and stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Feels good out here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not cold out here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a beautiful day.
CROWLEY: Moment after wonderful moment.
Candy Crowley, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, we've been changed by this, and in many ways we like the change in it all, but can it last? How long will it last? Why does it not last, often?
Political scientist Robert Putnam joins us from Washington tonight. He wrote an influential book called "Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community."
Nice to see you, welcome.
ROBERT PUTNAM, AUTHOR: Thank you very much. Good to talk with you.
BROWN: You know, I have this feeling that we are, as a country, sort of like a family at a funeral for a parent, and we haven't really liked each other all that much for a long time, but we talk to each other now and maybe next week. And then we stop talking to each other again.
Is there a way to avoid that?
PUTNAM: Well, it's true, I'm afraid. It's wonderful news, that people are feeling good about one another and actually feeling good about the country. And all the numbers that we keep track of, like blood donations and the hug index, I don't know what the numbers are, but I'm sure we're all feeling much better about each other.
But the fact of the matter is, there's a similar sort of spike in solidarity after almost any major tragedy. A flood or an earthquake or, you know, even after Princess Di's death or, to be more serious, after the Oklahoma City bombing. But, it's also true that that spike typically doesn't last more than a couple weeks, a month, maybe. After Oklahoma City, it lasted maybe six to nine months and then things were back to normal.
BROWN: Take a more comparable moment, if you will, a moment like, and it's the only one I can come up with and if it's a lousy example, I apologize, is Pearl Harbor.
PUTNAM: Yeah. No, Pearl Harbor is exactly, exactly right. That is the right comparison. It's the one that I'm aware of, of all these examples, where the effect really lasted. The people who lived through Pearl Harbor were enduringly different. They -- that generation is basically my parent's generation -- all their lives, they voted more, they joined more, they gave more, it was -- they really were imprinted with a powerful lesson of civic solidarity.
I don't -- I think there are some special things about the Pearl Harbor case. I don't think it was just the disaster, but it is the important, positive example that we should be thinking about.
BROWN: I'm interested to know what those special things are about Pearl Harbor. Is it that we had come out of the Depression? Is it that we went into a war? What was unique at Pearl Harbor?
PUTNAM: Well, I think -- yeah, I think the most important thing is that if all an event has is images, if we carry away images, like the images of those planes hitting the building, or the images of the, you know, the fireman with a small baby coming out Oklahoma City, the, Murrah building, or the image of burning battleships, actually, at Pearl Harbor. If that's all we have, I think it won't last.
What happened after Pearl Harbor were practices, things that ordinary people did in their daily lives that embodied a sense of solidarity with friends and neighbor. I mean, for example, all across America we learned to give people hitchhiking rides, because of the gas rationing and the fact that you, you just want to do a favor for people. Or victory gardens. Million of Americans grew gardens in their backyard and grew vegetables in their backyard. Or war bonds.
BROWN: So, it's not -- it's not enough to grieve or to be shocked. You have to do something to build on that, to come out of that?
PUTNAM: That's right. And I think, some of those things, in the case of World War II, were obviously directly connected with the war effort.
I mean, for example, another example was Boy Scouts standing at filling stations asking driving to give up their floor mats to help with the rubber shortage.
But, some of them, like the war bonds, were not necessarily directly linked to the war effort. I mean, when the treasury department looked at the question of how to finance World War II, war bonds were not the most efficient way, but the Secretary of Treasury at the time said we should use war bonds anyhow, as the method for raising funds, because it'll make everybody in America feel that they're part of this effort.
BROWN: 15 second or less, do you think that 18 months from now, we will still be a changed country? A closer country, a greater community?
PUTNAM: We will if we do -- we will if we engage in some practices in our daily lives. For example, if over Thanksgiving we all got together in all of our communities of faith, and connected with one another across barriers. I would like to have celebration of our solidarity. In all of the communities across barriers, that's the kind of -- I mean, I'd like to have a celebration of our solidarity in all of the communities across the country.
If we do that, we will come out of this in a more enduring way connect with one another.
BROWN: Well, I don't often offer up my opinion, but I hope we do that. I hope we do. It's nice to talk to you, sir. Join us again.
PUTNAM: Thank you very much.
BROWN: Thank you. We will revisit THE anthrax story, where we began this night, after a shorted break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We talked in the beginning of the program about a third case of anthrax exposure that has been discovered now in Florida. We spoke with anthrax researchers Dr. Philip Hanna when the second case of exposure was confirmed on Monday, and he is back with us, still in Ann Arbour, Michigan, tonight.
Nice to see you again. Let's just continue on a conversation we started the other night. Is it -- given how many different strains and how long the Ames strain has been out there, is that especially valuable for researchers to know, if in fact that's what this is.
DR. PHILLIP HANNA, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: The identification of a strain is sort of like a fingerprint for the police or the FBI.
It can place -- it can place the strain with people, if they find people that have it in their property or on their person. And hopefully it can help a detective work -- detectives trace the movements of the criminals involved.
BROWN: We talked the other day about how you would get the anthrax into -- I'm sorry, let me start this again. We talked about how you would sort of administer the anthrax. The hard part, it seems to me, is getting it in the first place. You can't go to the A&P and get anthrax, but it's pretty easy to disperse it, isn't it?
HANNA: Not as easy as you might think. Anthrax, again, in nature, is in many, many places and very few people get ill. You have to do special things to it to make the weapon's grade.
BROWN: I think the first question I asked you the other day was, do you think it's possible there's an innocent explanation for this, and you said, you kind of shook your head, and said no.
So, tell me what you thought when you heard the third case today?
HANNA: No, it looks like somebody put anthrax in that building.
BROWN: And, do you have any sense of how, given --the reason I ask it this way is, given how these people were exposed, do you have any sense of how, because it's one of the things the police are trying to figure out; how they got it in there, where they put it, how it might have happened?
HANNA: If somebody were to use high-test -- high grade anthrax spores and put into an air conditioning system or air vent or the heater, you'd expect to find anthrax spores almost everywhere within the building. My guess is that it was either delivered in person or through a package. So, very small square footage was actually contaminated.
BROWN: And they are testing hundreds of people now, this is guess, it's not intended to be anything more than that, but would you expect to see more people exposed to it, just based on fact that three have turned up already?
HANNA: You can't guess that.
BROWN: OK.
HANNA: You can't make a guess. I'm sure everyone will be tested and everyone that has been exposed or carrying the spores in their nose, in their sputum, in their spirit, will be discovered and treated. Every one should be treated any way.
BROWN: Dr. Hanna, it's nice to see you again, and I worry that I'm going to see you again soon real soon.
HANNA: Thank you.
BROWN: Phillip Hanna, at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.
CNN's coverage of America's new war will continue after this break.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
