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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

America Strikes Back: Anthrax Alert

Aired October 12, 2001 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. Truth be told, my favorite part of the day comes about an hour before this program, where I sit and write this page. It's a chance to pretty much say what I want, in the way I want to say it. And the fact is I don't know what to say tonight, because in many ways, I am as confused, as anxious, as angry as anyone. Not exactly the frame of mind a reporter likes to find himself in.

Tonight, the country has a real anthrax scare on its hands. There are not a lot of cases. Four for sure. Possibly, possibly another Nevada. And there was a suspicious letter that was delivered to "The New York Times."

We're going to walk very slowly through this tonight. No razzmatazz TV from us. This is very serious stuff.

The day started, as many of you know, at Rockefeller Center, the home to NBC News. A Nightly News employee has a skin form of anthrax. She handled a suspicious piece of mail sent to her boss, Tom Brokaw. We are glad to say she is in good condition. Nightly News did air tonight, though it aired from a different studio.

Blocks away from 30 Rock, a top bioterrorism reporter at "The New York Times" also got a suspicious envelope. We are awaiting test results there, but both "The Times" envelope and the one sent to NBC share at least one thing in common, a postmark from St. Petersburg, Florida.

Then tonight, another suspicious package was sent to a Microsoft office in Reno, Nevada. Tests here are a little confusing. One test came back positive, another negative. So they'll do another test tomorrow. So far, investigators say there is no conclusive evidence tying all of these cases together, but even the vice president, a pretty steady guy, acknowledged tonight it's somewhat of a stretch to believe they are not somehow connected.

We'll start, as has been our custom, by checking with our correspondents around the world to get at least the headlines on this very busy day. We start in New York with CNN's Garrick Utley. Garrick.

GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, what can we say, as you say tonight here in New York City, a month and a day ago when those planes hit the twin towers down there in lower Manhattan. There was trauma. There was shock. Today, there is. And this evening and tomorrow, they'll be mounting anxiety because of what seems to be some innocuous powder received in an envelope.

And of course, the scale is totally different. No one has died here. And yet, and yet, the 8 million New Yorkers who have been waiting for that other shoe to drop, well, perhaps they're thinking tonight it has dropped. Aaron.

BROWN: Garrick, we will back to you very shortly. Thank you.

At the White House, anthrax and other things occupied the day. John King, our senior White house reporter. John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And tonight, Aaron, the president keeping track of all this from Camp David. One senior aide said as the president left, he was quite stoic. Another said the president delivered a very simple message, "Stay on top of it."

And a short time ago, I spoke with a key official involved in the government's war on terrorism. And if you need a sign of the changing times, consider this. His message to me was "Thank God it's anthrax. It could be a lot worse."

BROWN: That's a nice way to end it. Thank you, John. We'll be back with you.

That's says an awful lot about where we are. And it says an awful lot.

We're going to Eileen O'Connor next, who's part of the team of CNN correspondents who are working on this part of the investigation. Eileen.

EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, all of this making the Attorney General very busy, Aaron. He faced the press a couple of times today, to give assurances that any warnings were designed to prepare Americans and not panic them. And he also said Americans can help law enforcement thwart attacks by reporting suspicious activities.

Also, he said that there is no evidence linking these reports of anthrax to the attacks of September 11.

BROWN: Come back to that question in a little bit. There is a war going no. Remember that? In Afghanistan.

Christiane Amanpour is in Islamabad, Pakistan. Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, another week, another huge sigh of relief by the Pakistani government, and this country's vast, silent majority. The vocal minority were on the streets again, but by no means the mass protests that they had threatened. And after a one-day lull in the bombing of Afghanistan, bombings have resumed.

BROWN: And Christiane, we'll be checking back with you as well. Thank you all.

We begin in New York. As you probably guessed, with the story that gets more disturbing the more you look into it. As we've said, an employee of NBC Nightly News has a skin form of anthrax. Weeks ago, she opened an envelope addressed to Tom Brokaw and found a suspicious white powder inside.

That powder was tested three times. All three tests were negative for anthrax, which leaves us with at least two less than comforting scenarios. Either these tests being used in anthrax scares around the country do not work well enough. Possible. Or she got anthrax somewhere else. Unlikely. The latest from New York now.

Garrick Utley joins us again. Garrick.

UTLEY: Well, Aaron, the good news -- and there's a little bit of good news -- is about that 38-year-old NBC News employee is being treated and she is doing well. The bad news, of course, is that this happened at all and happened right here in the center of Manhattan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): NBC was the first to report the news on its cable network.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's frankly close to home, involves an NBC employee at our company's headquarters at 30 Rockefeller Center.

UTLEY: Where a business-sized envelope containing a threatening letter and suspicious white powder arrived last month on the third floor, home of "NBC Nightly News." It was addressed to Tom Brokaw and opened by his assistant.

At a news conference, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani announced that the entire floor where the NBC news room and studios and the people who work there would be tested for anthrax.

MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: Those same people who are going to be tested will be administered Cipro as a prophylactic: in other words, to prevent the outside possibility that in some way they may have been infected.

UTLEY: It was on September 25 that the NBC News employee received the mail with the powder. Suspicious, she called security. The powder tested negative. But the employee developed a skin rash and low fever and went to a doctor.

On October 1st, she began taking antibiotics. She was also tested for anthrax. The test results released Friday found that the employee a cutaneous or skin anthrax infection. Her full recovery is expected.

Although no other cases in the building have been reported, that's been little comfort to those who work there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that something was sent through a piece of mail, a package, in our building. It could have gone to our floor. I mean, I'm very nervous and very concerned. It's very upsetting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we're so uninformed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we hear this happened 10 days ago. Two weeks ago? And we're just finding out now. Do you know how much mail, how many packages I've opened up in the past two weeks?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My boss, fortunately, is going to have everybody in the office tested so.

UTLEY: In another incident at "The New York Times," a suspicious package with a powdery white substance was received Friday by Judith Miller, who has reported on terrorist groups in the Arab world and their efforts to develop biochemical weapons.

Her work has appeared in the newspaper and in a new book on the subject. The powder is being tested to see whether it is anthrax.

What is known is that both envelopes being investigated came from the same place.

BARRY MAWN, FBI: Both letters to one to NBC as well as the one to "The New York Times" was post marked from St. Petersburg, Florida.

UTLEY: The suspect mail has led to the closure of the mail rooms at other media companies, including CBS, ABC and CNN. And on NBC Nightly News, Tom Brokaw reported the story, which had struck so close to home.

TOM BROKAW, NBC ANCHOR: ... that this is so unfair and so outrageous and so maddening, it's beyond my ability to express it in socially acceptable terms. So we'll just reserve our thoughts and our prayers for our friend and her family.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

UTLEY: A feeling felt by so many people this evening. Well, tomorrow, we should have the official results on those tests being conducted on the powder sent to "The New York Times" reporter Judith Miller. And eight million New Yorkers, I suspect, and the people across the country probably will be quite apprehensive about what the morning mail will bring tomorrow. Aaron.

BROWN: That I think is the understatement of the night, Garrick. We will all be apprehensive about our mail. Thank you. Garrick Utley in New York for us this evening.

This latest anthrax case has forced the president to once again strike what seems to us at least to be a near impossible balance: on the one hand, trying to reassure, while at the same time telling people to be very, very careful.

Here again, senior White House correspondent John King. John.

KING: Well, that's right, Aaron. We are still in the early chapters of this story, if you will. Already we have seen the president in the days after the attack try to console the nation. More recently, we have seen him lead it into war.

And just after that primetime news conference last night, in which the president tried to give a bit of a pep talk, urging the Americans to feel a little bit better about themselves, he woke up to find himself in the role of trying to calm a nation pondering the once unthinkable.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Defiance is one weapon in the president's fight against fear.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They will not take this country down.

(APPLAUSE)

KING: Not long ago, this tribute to Hispanic heritage would have been just another White House event, but there is no such thing as routine any more. Every sign of emotion watched around the world. Every hour, it seems, bringing a new ripple in the war on terrorism. This day's biggest challenge, another anthrax case. This one in New York.

BUSH: I want everybody in the country to know we're responding rapidly.

KING: No evidence yet of any link to Osama bin Laden or terrorism, but plenty of suspicion.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... with copies of the manuals that they've actually used to train people with respect to how to deploy and use these kinds of substances. So you start to piece it all together. Again, we have not completed the investigation. And maybe it's coincidence, but I must say I'm a skeptic.

KING: The Justice Department is leading the investigation and reminding Americans everywhere to take precautions.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Individuals receive mail of which they are suspicious, they should not open it. They should not shake it.

KING: The threat of bioterrorism is now discussed at nearly every National Security Council meeting. Responding requires a delicate balance. A call for Americans to be alert, but not panic.

TOMMY THOMPSON, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: People should not hoard the antibiotics, including Cipro. There is no need. We have enough antibiotics to get to the people who need it.

KING: This is one legacy of September 11, a van specially equipped to detect chemicals or other biohazards in the president's motorcade and on the grounds near the White House complex.

The General Services Administration manages 8,300 federal facilities across the country. All have received strict new guidelines for screening mail. New biohazard protocols have been implemented at the Capitol as well. And the government is reviewing and upgrading security near water supplies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Some senior administration officials complaining behind the scenes that the government is not nearly as prepared to deal with this new threat as it should be. And sources tell CNN tonight the administration is preparing an emergency spending bill for the Congress to pay for the overall war. In it, we are told several billion dollars in new money for new bioterrorism defenses. Aaron.

BROWN: John, thanks. Hard to imagine what the weekend will bring, but hopefully little. Have a good weekend. Thank you, John. John King, our senior White House correspondent.

So far, the FBI, as John indicated, is treating these cases, at least in a formal way, as separate. New York is a separate case from Florida. And then there's this Reno case that is still not precisely clear.

That doesn't mean that agents are not talking to each other or that these cases may not, may not be merged at some point.

We turn now to CNN's Eileen O'Connor in Washington now with the latest on the investigation. Eileen, good evening again.

O'CONNOR: Good evening, Aaron. Well, the attorney general throughout the day echoed the president, saying that people should go about their daily lives. Now Mr. Ashcroft appeared before the press twice, saying there's no evidence linking the latest anthrax exposures and the September 11 attacks or terrorism.

He also said warnings put out by the FBI on the possibility of further attacks in the next several days were designed to inform and prepare people, not panic them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHCROFT: Americans must be mindful of the threat of additional terrorist acts and be mindful of the fact that such a threat is real. The alert issued yesterday by the FBI should promote caution, not incite alarm.

All possible measures are being taken to detect and prevent future attacks to both incapacitate and deter would-be terrorists. Americans can assist in this effort by going about their lives with a heightened sense of vigilance and a renewed sense of responsibility. (END VIDEO CLIP)

O'CONNOR: Investigators believe Americans watching for and reporting suspicious activity will actually help law enforcement thwart any further attacks. Aaron.

BROWN: OK. A couple things. First of all, just an observation. The attorney general to us looked very weary this afternoon, when -- as well he might given what's been going on. The indictment in Tempe, what do we know?

O'CONNOR: Well, we know about that indictment is that it was against a man who is basically was accused of lying to the investigators. And they're bringing really the full force of the law against this man.

The attorney general said that he will be now extradited back to Arizona, sent back to Arizona, faced with two counts of lying to investigators. He denied knowing Hani Hanjour, one of the suspected hijackers. And he also denied knowing a man who ultimately said that he had been an acquaintance of Hani Hanjour.

Now the man, if convicted, could end up facing a maximum of 10 years in prison and half a million dollar fine. So obviously, this is, as the attorney general says, this is really clearly meant to be a warning to people. Do not thwart this investigation. Aaron.

BROWN: I'm sorry. Eileen, if you said this, I apologize. Why did they think he had a relationship with Hani Hanjour?

O'CONNOR: Because they did have evidence. I'm sorry -- he did evidence that he'd had the conversations with Hani Hanjour about their desire to learn how to fly. And so, the investigators had that evidence.

The man continually lied to them, and they say that they have conclusive evidence. Also they say that the other man told them about his relationship to Hanjour.

BROWN: OK, Eileen O'Connor in Washington, working on a many pronged investigation. Thank you, Eileen.

It seems to us at this point that maybe we should take a step back, walk through some of the questions that may seem a bit like anthrax 101, but that it's a safe bet few of us took that class any way.

So we'll turn to the Dr. Sanjay Gupta here, who will, in lay language, answer a few things. Let me just run them by you as we thought about them earlier. Skin anthrax, as opposed to inhaled anthrax. We all know now that one huge difference is skin is far less lethal.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.

BROWN: Why so? GUPTA: First of all, it's the same anthrax. The bacteria is the same. That is no different person in the person in Florida, the person in New York. It's the same bacteria. The difference is the way the person contracted it.

In New York, we hear about it getting in her skin. If she'd actually picked up that envelope, for example, and inhaled all the spores, she may have actually turned that cutaneous anthrax, the less deadly one, into inhalation anthrax.

BROWN: If you just put anthrax on my hand, there's no cut there. There's no lesion there. Do I contract anthrax?

GUPTA: Very unlikely. Usually, anthrax needs some sort of open wound or something to get into the bloodstream. Even if it does, if you can wash your hands pretty quickly after that, a lot of times, you can just prevent cutaneous anthrax from happening at all.

BROWN: We talked, in the case of the NBC anthrax, that they tested the substance three times. Came back negative three times. Now possibly she contracted it in some other way, but let's assume for a second that it is the powder. How could that be?

GUPTA: It is a bit of a mystery. And I've talked to a few people about this. And I'll try and explain the best that I understood it.

You have the spores, Aaron, that may be intermingled with lots of other powder of some sort. It could be any other powder, a negative powder. And these spores, you're going to have to grow them in a laboratory to confirm that the bacteria exists.

Now if the spores aren't growing because they're in a dormant phase or something like that, they're just never going to grow. And you'll never be able to confirm that they exist in the first place.

Even easier way to sort of understand is that if you have a, you know, a trillion different particles in this bag of powder and only 1,000 spores, and you happen to sample a piece of it, maybe you'll get all the regular powder and get none of the spores. And therefore, the test looks negative.

BROWN: 20 seconds. Should everyone go out and take Cipro, and if not, why not?

GUPTA: I haven't advocated that personally. It's an antibiotic. Antibiotics do have risk, both at the time that you take them and to the community at large. Any time you introduce Cipro, you can create resistant organisms later on down the line. I would recommend getting tested instead.

BROWN: If, in fact, you think you have some reason to?

GUPTA: Yes.

BROWN: As opposed to everyone in the country going to get tested. Thank you. I expect we'll talk this weekend. Thanks for coming in.

One other quick note, which has nothing to do with anthrax, but says a lot about the times we are in these days. A Delta Airlines flight from New York to Amsterdam was canceled tonight after sources two men described as Middle Eastern bought one way tickets and two others inquired about doing the same thing.

Delta Flight 80 was kept at the gate until the scheduled 8:15 p.m. Eastern departure time at JFK in New York to see if the men checked in. There's no word now on if they showed up for the flight or not. But a Delta spokesman says two passengers were detained by the FBI prior to boarding. Obviously, some more reporting needs to be done. And we are working on that. And if we get more, we'll pass it along. We certainly have much more ahead on this Friday night.

Still ahead tonight, it may sound exotic, but anthrax can be found in some less than exotic places. And while the White House is trying to prevent panic, you'll hear from one voice on Capitol Hill who says the country is very vulnerable to bioterrorism, Congressman Christopher Shays. As our CNN special report continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If there's any comfort to be had in what we've been learning so far, it's that turning anthrax into a weapon that can kill a whole lot of people is very, very hard to do. More frightening, though, just how easy it seems to be to get a hold of the anthrax bacteria in the first place.

Here's CNN's Charles Feldman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you are not a research scientist, you almost certainly have no business trying to buy anthrax, but that doesn't mean you can't.

JAVED ALI, BIOTERRORISM EXPERT: There's multiple possible ways that that could be done. One, they could try to purchase it from a legitimate culture repository.

FELDMAN: That's right. Commercial institutions right here in the U.S. that are under recently imposed restrictions, supposed to only sell anthrax to those with proper credentials. There are ways around the regulations, governing the sale of anthrax.

ALI: They could steal it maybe from a university lab or another cultural repository that has it.

FELDMAN: And then there are those with good intentions, scientists interested in eradicating that disease, who eagerly help out fellow researchers by trading various anthrax strains.

MARY GILCHRIST, UNIVERSITY HYGENIC LIBRARY: If you've isolated a strain of anthrax from an animal, for example, and began to study it, and people wanted to borrow the strain to use it to do other studies, you would very readily send it to them and hope that their work could help save the world as yours did.

FELDMAN: And it wasn't just scientists wanting to save the world who got samples of anthrax. Before the Gulf War, even Iraq was able to easily buy the bacterium from this U.S. supply company. And no one knows how much of what Iraq produced from those samples still exists.

DAVID KELLY, BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS PROJECT: They specifically asked for those particular strains. And they were appropriate for biological warfare because they were known to be robust. They had a high virulence and were known to be lethal.

FELDMAN: It's not just anthrax that's a potential problem. With more than 500 U.S. labs storing various amounts of 42 pathogens considered dangerous, there's a large menu of potential biological weapons to choose from. And you don't have to be a well-funded terrorist group to order.

In 1995 microbiologist Larry Wayne Harris Bought bubonic Plague bacteria through the mail to conduct what he said was his own research.

CNN interviewed him in 1996 about how easy the transaction was.

LARRY WAYNE HARRIS, MICROBIOLOGIST: I said OK, is there any regulations governing the stuff? They said no. There's none whatsoever. There is no regulations.

FELDMAN: While new restrictions might make it more difficult to buy deadly pathogens, some say the obstacles may not be great enough.

Charles Feldman, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Congressman Christopher Shays is among the most knowledgeable people in Washington on this subject. And we'll talk with the congressman in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: To people that have been paying attention, it's been known for a while that the country was not really ready to deal with full-blown bioterrorism. I wouldn't say that's where the country is, but it's a little too close for comfort these days.

Among those who was paying attention, Congressman Christopher Shays. He chairs a subcommittee on National Security. He heard some very grim testimony today. And the congressman joins us from New York. Good evening, sir.

REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: Good evening. Yes, it wasn't all grim.

BROWN: Well, let's talk. Not to sound like the sort of obvious reporter in me. Let's talk about the grim stuff first. What did you hear there? SHAYS: Well, I mean, we heard from Ken Auerback, who was a former head of the biological division within Russia. 30,000 employees, that small pox is not contained just within Russia, that other countries had it. Korea. Some in the Middle East. And so that was a concern.

And also that anthrax, that they experimented with it. They dumped tons of it in Renaissance Island in the Aural Sea in Kazakhstan, 80 miles from Afghanistan. It's a shopping mall in essence for the terrorists. They can just go and pick the stuff up.

BROWN: So are you suspicious then when the Attorney General says that there is and the FBI says there is no, and I think their word is conclusive evidence, that September 11 is related to the anthrax situation we're facing tonight?

SHAYS: Well, let me just say this to you. Bin Laden basically trained lots of terrorists. And he made them independent agents. He sent them out. He trained them in Afghanistan. He sent them to the Sudan and to Bosnia, brought them back to Afghanistan. Sent them back to Europe, then sent them to the United States as graduates.

And they're allowed to operate on their own as well. And he sent them all around the world. So we're dealing with some independent agents who got, in many cases, their training from him.

BROWN: But do you have, just in your own mind, any doubt that there is a, let's say, a bin Laden connection or a terrorist connection to the events on September 11 and the anthrax cases today?

SHAYS: Well, I mean, I'd be highly suspicious. And it's almost irrelevant. He's unleashed the terrorist activities against us. And we need to put a stop to him. We need to end his place of training. Take away his home. Shut him down. And turn one stone over at a time but we learned yesterday Afghanistan and bin Laden are hand in glove. He funds them. He controls what happens there.

BROWN: Are you confident that the administration Health and Human Services where this resides is doing everything it ought to do?

SHAYS: Absolutely. Let me just tell you, I think Tommy Thompson is probably one of the finest public servants, one of the most competent. I just am so grateful he's where he is. I have said continually that it's not a question of if there will be a biological chemical attack. It's a question of when, where, and of what magnitude.

He has said we can deal with them because he is basically pointing out that most of the attacks will be of a level that we can deal with. If it was an extraordinary magnitude, then the system shuts down. It wouldn't be his fault, but we'd, you know, do our best to deal with it.

BROWN: So as long as we're talking about one employee in New York and a couple people in Miami, and maybe or maybe not, someone in Reno, we're OK? SHAYS: Well, no. We could keep dealing with the ones. It would be a challenge if we started having, you know, 300 in one area and 500 in another and if we had a more contagious disease. This isn't contagious. I shouldn't say more. Anthrax is not contagious.

BROWN: Someone told John King, our senior White House guy, that we're lucky it's anthrax.

SHAYS: Yes, I heard that earlier. I mean, great introduction to your program. Just very informative and very helpful. And he's right in the sense, thank goodness, it's anthrax. It's deadly, but we can treat it.

BROWN: Congressman, thanks for coming in tonight. Congressman Christopher Shays joins us from New York this evening. It's good to see you.

SHAYS: Nice to see you.

BROWN: We have much more coming back. We'll be back right away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Doctors in New York are hearing from patients they haven't seen in years. Stores are selling out of gas masks. We hear an official saying don't worry and let's face it, it's hard not to worry. Are people losing faith in government to protect them? Ought they lose that faith?

A few questions to deal with tonight. We have two guests joining us now. In Washington, Dr. Amy Smithson. Dr. Smithson directs the Chemical and Biological Weapons Nonproliferation Project at the Stimson Center. And joining us from Philadelphia, biologist and former FBI deputy director William Gavin.

Nice to see you both. Dr. Smithson, you get to go first because I know you want to react to something we talked with Congressman Shay's about.

DR. AMY SMITHSON, STIMSON CENTER: Yes, there was mention of Vozrozhdeniye Island, which was the testing ground for the Soviet biological warfare program, but for quite sometime, Department of Defense officials have been at this site under the auspices of the Cooperative Threat Reduction Program started by Senators Lugar, Nunn and Domenici. And what they've been doing is taking this facility apart.

There's very little infrastructure left. There have been all sorts of environmental tests conducted and I would say it's a stretch to characterize that as a shopping ground for anthrax.

BROWN: OK. Difference of opinion there. One of the things the congressman and I talked about was whether or not it is likely that the terrorists, in some shape or form, who were involved in September 11th, are also involved in these anthrax. What's your view? SMITHSON: At this point, I don't believe there's any evidence that indicates that these are related events. Remember, tragedy kind of brings the wackos out of the woodworks. And this is a situation that I would characterize more along the lines as a bio-Unabomber. The Unabomber killed three people and injured 29, but these are very targeted, isolated events, where the scope of harm is limited, and perhaps even the capability is limited as well.

BROWN: I said this earlier, I'll say it again, it may be a wacko, but it's a whack that can get anthrax. That's not your every day anthrax.

SMITHSON: Absolutely. That's what's worrisome about this.

BROWN: And, Mr. Gavin, do you share that view, that this is probably, or possibly, at least, unrelated because there are sort of first impulses that surely these things must be related somehow to September 11th.

WILLIAM GAVIN, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: I think it's very difficult to form a conclusion at this particular point in time. I believe that we have to do a little bit more investigating. I also agree that there's something on the other side of the equation that says that it's not related, that it's individuals -- an individual or individuals, doing this throughout the United States.

But that is yet to be demonstrated, yet to be shown, through good investigation and analysis of what we have left to examine, both from a, from a forensic point of view and from strict investigation.

BROWN: Does the FBI have the kind of specialists, I guess is the word I want, to deal with this form of investigation?

GAVIN: I think today -- the short answer is, yes, but I don't think that any one organization does it alone. The spirit of cooperation that exists across the government, in terms of people with expertise, is fantastic. All that expertise is put together. No stone gets left unturned, and the times of being parochial about who does something better had best be left aside for now, and for good, as far as I'm concerned.

BROWN: Well, you know, that's a great point, but as you know from your years in the bureau, and the bureau has been at least accused of this, I won't convict the bureau of this; there's a lot of turf that seems to get protected in Washington, even in moments like this.

GAVIN: Well, I think everybody has to look beyond that. I know from my own experience in the FBI, when I was in New York, we had -- across the board, we had police officers, we had other forms of -- other agents from other organizations, federal agents as well as local police officers, coming to work in the FBI every single day, without any discrimination as to what agency they worked for. They were part of an investigate team.

I know exactly how it worked during the bombing of 1993, and it was 100 percent total cooperation, because it had to be -- we had to resolve something for the American people and for us as well.

BROWN: Dr. Smithson, you are, I know, aware of some of these mock exercises that have gone on and I've read about this, and it seems to me they have offered up mixed results. Sometimes the agencies respond well, sometimes not so well. Is that a fair characterization?

SMITHSON: Think that's a fair characterization. A case in point is the drill that was conducted in mid-1991 in Denver; they simulated the release of plague. The drill was called "Top Off." And, in that instance, there was a division of responsibility that was rather awkward and in some cases may persist.

The FBI has got the criminal lead, which is as it should be, and FEMA has this consequence management lead, but the people who really should be calling the shots in a public health crisis are indeed the public health officials. And that was difficult, to get their voices heard, when they had to channel their viewpoints through two different departments.

BROWN: And is there any evidence that they used that experience and solved the problem, so if Denver or New Orleans or any other city were to get hit with something even more serious than what we're dealing with tonight, they would respond differently than they would have then?

SMITHSON: Well, that's the challenge that lies ahead for Governor Ridge and his ability to address the problem may be limited, unless he's given czar-like budgetary authority by Congress.

There have been over 40 federal agents in there scrapping for missions and money associated with a response to a terrorism event of an unconventional nature, and it would actually be a lot better if they just went back to the original federal response plan, where in the division of labor was already worked out over a decade ago.

BROWN: Do you see indications that that will happen, by the way?

SMITHSON: I'm not in the prediction business.

BROWN: OK. OK.

SMITHSON: There's a lot of money involved in this and a lot of bureaucratic competition, I'm afraid, may still be at play.

BROWN: Dr. Smithson, it's nice to meet you, electronically. Mr. Gavin, nice to see you again.

SMITHSON: Thank you.

GAVIN: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Thanks for joining us. And we'll talk again.

Up next, the military strikes resume in Afghanistan. We'll update that and more in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's a little unsettling, but technology lets us watch nearly every angle of a war. This video was just released by the Pentagon, of a tomahawk sea-launched cruise missiles. The Navy got the pictures as these missiles were being launched from one of several ships. They were taken on day one of the war.

Day six was quiet until this evening. Look at that shot. If you didn't think about how deadly these things were, it would actually be quite pretty, through the night sky, headed for somewhere in Afghanistan, that one was. These are tomahawk missiles, the sea- launch version of a cruise missile. Smart missiles.

Day six was quite. The Pentagon and the administration calling off the war, so to speak, for a day, because it's the traditional Islamic day of prayer; that lull a measure of how far the government wants to go, the U.S. government, to keep the action against al Qaeda and the Taliban from triggering any reaction in the Muslim world.

Here's CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Videos from earlier this week show how U.S. laser-guided bombs have put a dent in Taliban air forces. But after six days of pounding, the U.S. is claiming modest success, not victory.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We have disrupted their communications somewhat. We have, we believe, weakened the Taliban military and damaged, but certainly not eliminated, their air defense capabilities.

MCINTYRE: Pentagon satellite photos show a missile storage facility, and a terrorist training camp, damaged by U.S. bombs.

On day six, there were no pre-planned attacks in deference to the Muslim Sabbath, but Navy fighters circled the skies looking for pop-up targets. The emphasis over the last few days has been to kill al Qaeda and Taliban troops and their leaders.

RUMSFELD: The United States is seeking out concentrations of people who are involved in these terrorist activities and in the terrorist training camps and in the terrorist network. And when we find them, we do try to deal with them.

MCINTYRE: Pentagon sources say a moving Chevy Suburban, believed owned by Taliban leader Mohammed Omar, was hit Wednesday night. It's not known who was inside. U.S. intelligence is detecting signs that as many as 400 Taliban fighters have defected to the other side. And the U.S. believes Taliban opposition forces have captured a major town on the main road from the capital of Kabul to the western city of Herat.

But so far, sources say, there has been no major shift in the frontlines in the four key areas where opposition groups are battling al Qaeda and Taliban forces. The Northern Alliance appears to be waiting for the dust to clear.

RUMSFELD: It's for those troops to make judgments as to whether or not they intend to take advantage of the work that's been done for them.

MCINTYRE: Meanwhile, the Pentagon continues to plan for the eventual insertion of special forces commandos on the ground.

GENERAL RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: Many of the conventional efforts that you see today are stage setters for follow- on operations. Some of those efforts may be visible, but many will not.

MCINTYRE: But Secretary Rumsfeld promises, any use of ground troops will be in and out.

RUMSFELD: We are -- have no aspirations to reside or occupy in their country, for a short period of time, even.

MCINTYRE: So far the U.S. military has been able to strike targets in Afghanistan with impunity, in large part because the Taliban haven't made much effort to disperse their troops and planes. Unlike the Serbs, who used decoys and deception to avoid NATO bombs in 1999, the Taliban, says one U.S. official, apparently haven't learned much about American military tactics.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Across the border in Pakistan, the government there has been walking a tightrope all week long. It won't get any easier this weekend.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour joins us again now from Islamabad. Christiane, nice to see you.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, if indeed that lull in the bombing was in deference to the Friday holy day of prayers here, it didn't actually go down that way in the Muslim world. There were, of course, a lot of protests around Pakistan, as there have been every Friday for the last week. They were really no more rowdy or no more violent than they have been for the last month.

Nonetheless, this vocal minority was out on the streets and indeed, this Friday was the day that the government was going to really take the pulse of which way the people were feeling, in terms of it being the Friday of protests since the air raids began.

In the rest of the Islamic world, we did see a slight increase in the number of protests. In Iran, for instance, some 20,000 people came out on to the street. And remember that at the beginning of this crisis, on September the 11th, Iranians came out in sympathy with Americans who had been killed in that World Trade Center and Pentagon terrorist attack.

But now with the aerial bombardments, there have been increased protests in Jordan, in the West Bank, in other ports of the Islamic world, and in the mosques, where preachers have been giving quite fiery and emotional sermon.

However, on the whole, it remained peaceful. There were no mass uprisings and no extreme violence was taken on this day, despite the protests, Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, are you hearing any, hearing of your sources in Afghanistan reporting any new bombing coming in? Are you hearing any of that from either Kandahar or Kabul?

AMANPOUR: Well, we have not been able to actually confirm that ourselves because we haven't been able to get in touch with Al- Jazeera. But there have been wire reports that have come out of Kabul, talking about a renewed campaign.

But having talked to our sources in Kandahar just before this bombing resumed, they were telling us that really now everybody is getting very rattled and very scared, because it's been very much more intense on Friday and on Wednesday and Thursday night than it had been, and we were having people describe windows being broken because of the explosions were so heavy, people afraid that the mud buildings might collapse, sleeping out in the open. People trying to flee, and people very, very frightened. So, it really is taking a toll, this five or six days of bombing.

Indeed, also, there have been these reports of civilian damage, which we haven't been able to independently confirm. There have been some pictures that have come out from near Jalalabad and those are the kinds of things that resonate on the streets here in Pakistan and in other parts of the Islamic world.

BROWN: Christiane, thanks. Christiane Amanpour in Islamabad, Pakistan this evening. We have more. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Somber ceremony today in Norfolk, Virginia. The Navy dedicating a monument to the 17 sailors lost a year ago today, killed in the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen. 17 servicemen, also thought to be victims of Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda terrorist network.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Information systems technician, seaman, Ennis, Texas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: It took about four minutes to read out the roll call of the victims, and we don't to in anyway to diminish the loss of these sailors, but it is worth imagining how long it would take to remember the victims of September 11th in the same way: about 24 hours straight.

A more uplifting scene, to say the least, in American schools today. It's called Pledge Across America, started a decade ago by a retired teacher Paula Burton, in more ordinary times. She had trouble drumming up interest in her little idea: having kids saying the Pledge of Allegiance all at once, at the same time. No lack of interest any more.

Here's what happened at 2:00 Eastern time at schools across the country. Education Secretary Rod Paige helped lead it off in the nation's capital.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROD PAIGE, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: The time is now. Please join me. Repeat along with me.

VARIOUS VOICES: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I think it's fair to say we all needed that. We'll wrap it up for this hour in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We were watching that promo just now and smiled. The last time we saw it was a week ago Friday night. It was scheduled to run last Sunday and then a war intervened. Hopefully it will have better luck this Sunday at 7:00.

We are a little backed up tonight. We will take a break and then update you on the latest headlines in just a moment.

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