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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
America Strikes Back
Aired October 15, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. I don't know at what point the anthrax scare becomes something worse, but I suspect it has to do when it touches someone you know, and that would be tonight for us. The latest victim of this anthrax attack, if you like that word, is the 7-month-old son of an ABC news producer, a former colleague of mine, a friend.
I have been reporting awful news for a month. It seems to get closer to home each day. The little boy is recovering tonight. He's expected to make it. Whatever this is connected to, whether it's connected to September 11th or something else, it is extraordinarily evil.
That said, and off my chest, here are the facts. New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani made the ABC announcement just before 9:00 Eastern time tonight. The 7-month old boy he said was in the office with his mom when he apparently contracted anthrax there, though that is not certain. It came through his skin -- that is the less dangerous form of anthrax.
That announcement came about eight hours after Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle announced that someone on his staff had opened a letter that also appears to have contained anthrax. A fellow senator said it is nothing short of an assassination attempt. Senator Daschle wasn't there when the letter was opened, but 40 of his staffers were.
The postmark, Trenton, New Jersey, and if that sounds familiar, it should. That's where another letter came from filled out with anthrax opened by an ABC News employee, who is now being treated with antibiotics.
We begin with a quick check around the country and around the world on the headlines on this story and the war as well. Jonathan Karl on Capitol Hill has been working the Daschle anthrax story all day -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The Hill is on edge as that apparent presence of anthrax in a letter sent to Tom Daschle has prompted the Capitol police to immediately halt all mail deliveries up here and to cancel, postpone tours of the Capitol building indefinitely.
BROWN: Jon, we'll be back with you. The latest on the investigation, Eileen O'Connor -- the headline, Eileen, please. EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As you said, an important connection between two letters, one sent to anchorman Tom Brokaw, the other sent to Senate majority leader Tom Daschle. And New Jersey -- now, that is a state that has already caught the interest of investigators because of links of people there to Al Qaeda.
BROWN: Over at the White House -- Eileen, thank you. We'll be back with you.
Over at the White House, the announcement on the Daschle letter was made almost as an afterthought. Our senior White House correspondent John King.
JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Aaron, the president was asked if he thought Osama bin Laden was behind this. He said no hard evidence but -- quote -- "I wouldn't put it past him." As the investigations continue here at the White House, they worry about what they now call the fear factor. The memory is still fresh in Americans' minds of planes turned into bombs, now increasing worries about even opening the mail.
BROWN: John, we'll be back with you momentarily. And now to Islamabad, Pakistan. Secretary of State Powell is in Pakistan now. So is Christiane Amanpour -- Christiane.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the visit of Secretary Powell is shrouded in so much security that we haven't even seen a picture yet of his arrival. He's due to meet with the Pakistani president today, and already tensions in this visit between Pakistan and India, the two nuclear neighbors. India has had military activity from Kashmir into Pakistan last night.
BROWN: Christiane, more from you coming up in a bit as well.
There's a quick view of the headlines. We begin with the anthrax story here in New York. At the risk of jumping to a conclusion, it does seem that news organizations are one of the targets of these anthrax terrorists. American Media first, then NBC News. Now, apparently, ABC News.
We don't know who or why, and because the ABC case is somewhat different -- it wasn't an employee but it was an infant. The letter, if there was one, didn't immediately cause concern. This case is going to be very difficult to solve. We do know that the child, seven-month old boy, was very sick for a while, but better now.
The announcement at ABC News was made first by David Westin, the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WESTIN, PRESIDENT, ABC NEWS: We learned this evening that in fact the child, in preliminary tests, both blood and biopsy, has tested positive for cutaneous anthrax. We do not know for sure that that was contracted through an exposure at ABC News, but we are operating on that assumption at the present time. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Mayor Giuliani followed, along with his police commissioner, updating the situation at ABC News and the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: We'll be conducting an environmental review tonight, try to get it done as quickly as possible. It might take a little bit longer to make sure that the premises and the areas are safe. We're doing that out of an excess of caution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COMMISSIONER BERNARD KERIK, NEW YORK POLICE: I've directed teams of investigators, in conjunction with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to report to, respond to different media agencies throughout the city. They will be going to CNN, CBS, the Associated Press, the "Daily News,: Fox News and the "New York Post," and we'll be doing environmental surveys in and around the mail rooms, just as a precautionary measure. And I want to -- I just want to emphasize that. This is strictly a precautionary measure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And that's exactly what police did. They arrived here about an hour or so ago, began going through the mail room. Obviously, this is not particularly comfortable for any of us. We don't like reporting on ourselves. The mail room procedures here have been tightened a good deal in the last several days. And to be perfectly honest, a lot of people here, from what I can tell, are just throwing mail out unless they know precisely who it's come from.
In any case, the police were here checking it out, and we suspect this sort of activity is going to go on in news organizations in this city, in Washington, and perhaps around the country as well, for some time to come, until there are some facts to associate with the fears.
We move on to Capitol Hill, where the country's most powerful democrat was the target of an anthrax attack, as we told you earlier. A staffer for Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle today opened a letter that contained anthrax. It was sent to Daschle's personal office, where about 40 people were working. Senator Daschle was not in the building.
It's a testament to how much the world has changed since September 11th, that a spokesman for the Capitol Hill police department said -- quote -- "This was not unexpected."
We go back to congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl -- Jonathan.
KARL: Well, Aaron, Daschle says that he is -- quote -- "supremely confident" in the ability of the Capitol Police and the Capitol, generally, to deal with a threat of this kind. He says the current situation is under control.
But one thing very interesting, Aaron, is that Daschle himself, although he was not in that building in that office when that letter was opened, Daschle himself was tested for anthrax, and no reports yet coming back on the results of that test. But Daschle himself was among those tested.
Meanwhile, the Capitol, which had already been on a heightened state of alert, at an even higher state of alert now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (voice-over): The incident turned Senator Daschle's personal office into a crime scene. Forty staffers initially quarantined inside for several hours. Elsewhere on Capitol Hill, all mail deliveries were halted, and mail already delivered, returned to be examined for hazardous material.
But the majority leader urged calm.
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: I will say that the antibiotic is so effective that it is 100 percent successful in killing the bacteria, once that bacteria has been released. And so we are supremely confident of our ability to deal with circumstances like this.
KARL: Daschle was not in the office when the letter was opened. Some, but not all of the 40 people who were, are being treated with antibiotics. So are several mail room workers and police officers who were first called to the scene.
(on camera): According to an FBI official familiar with the investigation, the letter was sent to Daschle's office on Friday and not opened until Monday morning. And like the suspected letter sent to NBC's Tom Brokaw, the Daschle letter had a postmark from Trenton, New Jersey.
The attack didn't come as a complete surprise on Capitol Hill. Just five days earlier, the Senate's sergeant at arms sent out a lengthy memo to all Senate offices warning staff about recent threats, and providing tips on identifying and handling suspicious packages and letters.
But the presence of anthrax in Daschle's office made an already jittery Capitol even more nervous. Senator Frank Murkowski reported to Capitol Police a suspicious package in his office. He wasn't the only one.
SEN. FRANK MURKOWSKI (R), ALASKA: We were advised at that time that we were the 12th on the list.
KARL: Capitol police spent much of the day chasing down suspicious packages, none of which have been to test positive for biological agents. But in a sign of the heightened state of alert, all public tours of the Capitol were suspended indefinitely. DASCHLE: We are taking every step, and we will take additional steps, as we become more aware of what can be done in a preventive way to deal with these circumstances in the future.
KARL: One of those steps is a new system for the Capitol's mail room to help screen for biological agents.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: And even at this late hour, signs everywhere of extraordinary security measures that are being taken. Just a short way away from this spot right here, they are testing out an emergency communications system that could be used if there was a need to evacuate the Capitol on an emergency basis.
So right now, even now they are testing out this emergency system and emergency communications base on the grounds of the Capitol, but outside of the Capitol building -- Aaron?
BROWN: Jon, do we know anything about the letter that the Daschle office received, what it looked like? I know we know the postmark. Do we know anything else about it?
KARL: One thing we know about the letter is it was taped -- taped and retaped. And when it was opened, the material in the letter, we are told, stayed within the letter. But this was a heavily-taped letter. That's about the only detail we know. It wasn't a package, it was a letter. But heavily taped, and the material contained within it.
BROWN: Jon, Nice Work today, thank you. Jonathan Karl on Capitol Hill. He's been working this story since noontime or so.
We keep hearing that pulling off a major bioterror attack is extremely difficult. One writer described it this way: "It's like commandeering a motorcycle and driving it into a telephone booth." But what began in one building in Florida has now expanded to four states, if you include the New Jersey post office, from which two of the letters were mailed, and to Washington, D.C. as well. And investigators are struggling to keep up with countless leads, false alarms, hoaxes and the rest.
For the latest on the investigation, here again, CNN's Eileen O'Connor -- Eileen?
O'CONNOR: Well, Aaron, as you said, they've gotten hundreds of calls. And now a disturbing development in Florida: a second employee of American Media has the inhaled form of anthrax. Ernesto Blanco, 73 years old, a mail room worker, was thought to only have been exposed to the disease, and he was already in the hospital being treated for pneumonia. But he was also being given antibiotics protectively, though officials confirm he actually has had anthrax now. They say he is responding to the treatment.
Investigators, as you say, struggling to determine just what person or persons are behind these multiple cases. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): One new lead -- a connection. The letter sent to NBC anchorman Tom Brokaw was sent, like Daschle's, from Trenton, New Jersey. Officials say finding the exact source of that mail is no easy task, given the 650 million pieces posted nationwide each day.
TONY ESPOSITO, U.S. POSTAL INSPECTOR: The article of mail that was postmarked here in Trenton, New Jersey on September 18th, along with approximately 246,000 other articles of mail, was brought here from any one of possibly 46 other post offices and/or stations or branches.
O'CONNOR: New Jersey has already been a focus of investigators, with evidence some of the hijackers stayed in this apartment in Patterson, New Jersey, as well as links to those involved in previous terrorist attacks.
SKIP BRANDON, FORMER FBI DEPUTY ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: You have to look at it, but you can't discount the possibility that it just happens to be somebody who is not related who is using Trenton as a mail drop.
O'CONNOR: There was also heightened concern among post office workers there.
ESPOSITO: At this point we have two employees that reported to us that they had symptoms that could be construed as possibly being related to the anthrax virus.
O'CONNOR: They are being tested. A post office in Boca Raton, Florida also reported the presence of anthrax spores. Officials say they are cleaning the area, and contend there's little chance of postal workers contracting the disease through closed envelopes.
New York has received scores of phone calls reporting suspicious mail -- some hoaxes.
KERIK: People think that it's -- it may be amusing. It may be a hoax to send someone something with baby powder or talcum powder. The people that do that will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Hoax or not, real anthrax or not.
O'CONNOR: While the anthrax letters are not inflicting large numbers of casualties, law enforcement sources say it does fit bin Laden's goal of disrupting the U.S. government.
BRANDON: It may be that this sort of thing is really all that they can do right now. But if it is their involvement, it is effective. It's certainly causing a lot of concern in the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'CONNOR: Now, investigators are not discounting the possibility that whoever is doing this could also be trying to make it look like Al Qaeda or a group associated with the Middle East. Sources tell CNN's Susan Candiotti that the letter to Tom Brokaw contained threatening language to the United States and Israel, advised the recipient to take medication and praised Allah.
Now, there's no word yet if Senator Daschle's letter said the same thing -- Aaron.
BROWN: Eileen, quickly, did they assume that all of these letters came from the same person or persons?
O'CONNOR: No, they do not. In fact, they're working very much under the theory that these are different cases. Florida may well be different from these New York and Washington, and then you know the one in Nevada may well be a different, third case.
BROWN: Eileen, thanks. Eileen O'Connor, trying to keep track of a very complex investigation tonight. Thank you. We have much more ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Bush this morning was in the Rose Garden with Italy's Prime Minister, saying the things that world leaders have been saying at the White House for a month -- countries are united in this war against terrorism. Italy will help as asked -- routine talk these days.
And then the president was asked about anthrax, and only then did he break the news of the Daschle letter. Here again, our senior White House correspondent, John King -- John.
KING: It seems, Aaron, nothing is routine any more. One senior official saying tonight there are no surprises anymore, but some things do sting more than others. The president was in the White House residence when word of this new ABC case came up tonight. Asked for reaction, an aide said, "you know the president doesn't like us talking about these things." When pressed, the aide said, "it's a seven-month old baby. What do you think?" Another tough ending, another challenging day.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): The president was meeting with Italy's prime minister when he received word of another anthrax scare, this one at the Capitol. Instant suspicion that Osama bin Laden is behind a new campaign to frighten Americans.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There may be some possible link. We have no hard data yet, but it's clear that Mr. bin Laden is a man who's an evil man. He and his spokesmen are openly bragging about how they hope to inflict more pain on our country.
KING: White House and Congressional sources tell CNN the administration will ask Congress for perhaps as much as $3 billion to improve the nation's bioterrorism defenses. Half that, $1.5 million, would be for the Department of Health and Human Services. The most urgent goals are: increasing the supply of anthrax antibiotics, from the current 60-day supply for two million people to a 60-day supply for 12 million people; accelerating and increasing the production of the smallpox vaccine; and improving security at labs that have anthrax, smallpox and other strains that could be targeted by terrorists.
Beyond the specific cases, what worries the administration most is the fear factor -- concerns of bioterrorism in the mail.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The American people ought to be cautious about what they open. There is absolutely no reason for panic, but if the American people, anyone is suspicious about a package or a letter, then they should get in touch with officials about it.
KING: Over the weekend, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson repeatedly used the term bioterrorism. But the White House press secretary said he prefers the term crime. These cases do not reach the threshold of terrorism, at least not yet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: In the words of one senior official, that was -- quote -- "an effort to ratchet down the rhetoric a little." The term terrorism only adds to the fear factor. But the president himself raised the prospect of terrorism just a short time later. You saw it during the Rose Garden. Asked if there was a connection between the anthrax cases and Osama bin Laden, the president simply said, "I wouldn't put it past him." Aaron?
BROWN: John, thanks. Our senior White House correspondent John King tonight.
It is difficult for the White House to walk this line between prudence and paranoia. The past five weeks have been an education for most of us, a terrifying way to find out what's loose in the world. So it doesn't bring much comfort to learn there's a lot we still don't know. Neither does the government.
James Woolsey was the director of the CIA during the early part of the Clinton administration. He's been looking at what we still need to know, and he joins us from Washington. It's nice to see you, sir. Thank you.
JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Good to be with you, Aaron.
BROWN: You see, at least in some respects, Iraqi fingerprints, or what may be Iraqi fingerprints, on a lot of this, don't you?
WOOLSEY: Well it's possible. The key thing here is the anthrax that was inhaled by the two men in Florida, one of them has died. Anthrax that can get on the skin can be picked up in a lot of places. It grows in a lot of cow pastures in the world. But to get it to exactly the right size of spore that it can be inhaled, there's a tolerance of just a very few microns, one way or the other, narrower, say, than a human hair. And you have to know what you're doing in order to do that.
Aum Shinrikyo, the Japanese cult that turned the sarin gas loose in the subway a few years ago in Tokyo, tried to use anthrax and biological warfare, but they couldn't master it technologically.
So it looks to me as if someone substantially more sophisticated than folks sitting out in the middle of the hills in Afghanistan are involved in this in some way. My first nominee would probably be the government of Iraq, but I think Iran is not impossible.
BROWN: do we know enough about -- does the government know enough about the Iraqi anthrax program to where they could identify the strain of anthrax and prove it that way? Or it going to be much more complicated than that?
WOOLSEY: It's going to be harder because Saddam has guarded the strains of the bacteria and the biological agents very, very carefully, so we could not get DNA samples. When UNSCOM, the U.N. inspectors, under Ambassador Ekeus and then Ambassador Butler went in, and even went into Salman Pak, the facility just south of Baghdad which is the biological center for Iraq, they found some materials, they found some documents.
But they never really got their hands on the actual biological agents themselves. The Iraqis said that they had destroyed them. They almost certainly lied, and those have been very, very carefully protected by Saddam -- even more carefully than he protected his nuclear program.
BROWN: So, absent a kind of absolute proof, what does the United States do?
WOOLSEY: Well, there is no absolute proof in war. We need to get away from the idea here that we're dealing with a crime or that we're dealing with criminal standards of proof,and beyond and beyond a reasonable doubt in courtrooms and all of that.
We're dealing with someone who is at war with us, and we need to make a judgment about who that is. It's almost certainly Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda and Afghanistan, but it may also be a state. And there are just a number of indications, I think, that a state may be involved in this. One is the sophistication of the attack on September the 11th.
The other is, previous terrorist attacks against the United States back in the '90s, at least one of which we know Iraq was involved in, the attempt to assassinate the first President Bush, immediately after he stepped down in the spring of '93 on a visit to Kuwait.
So I think there are a lot of things, meetings between Iraqi intelligence officers and some of the conspirators of September 11th. There are a number of things that the U.S. government needs to look at very closely and carefully, in order to see whether it can make a judgment about whether a state is involved in this or not. BROWN: Mr. Woolsey, thanks. We should talk next time about what to do if that's the judgment that is made. We'll do that next time. Thank you. Former CIA director, Jim Woolsey tonight. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: If one word sums up the region today, the word is "more." More bombing, more high-profile diplomacy, and more boasting from Al Qaeda. That part was delivered in person to CNN.
Here's correspondent Nic Robertson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Shortly before we left Afghanistan, we had a meeting with two representatives of Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda movement. I asked them what was the situation with Osama bin Laden, given that these air attacks have been trying to kill him in the last week or so. They said that he was well. The representative told me that he had seen Osama bin Laden two days previously and that he was in good spirits.
Now, I asked them also about Osama bin Laden, what his view was on the current situation. They said that he considered that Al Qaeda was winning the war. He said that Osama bin Laden believes that he has won the case over what the terms are that this war is being fought over, and that is, from their point of view, that this is all over Islam. They say that they are defending Islam and they believe the allied forces are attacking Islam.
He also said that Osama bin Laden believes that continuation of this conflict will bring not only the economic but the political, as well, disruption of the United States and of Great Britain. He talked about not only President Bush, but of Tony Blair losing their grip on political power, and that they would -- Al Qaeda would be able to destroy the economy of the United States. And by therefore, as well, because of the global economy, he said also destroying the economy in the whole world.
Now, this representative of Al Qaeda said that there was a special message from Osama bin Laden, and that message was that if the United States and allied forces destroyed the homes that they said of innocent civilians inside Afghanistan, there would be serious consequences.
Now, that, of course, comes just a day after Taliban had taken us to a remote hillside village that they say had been targeted by U.S. airplanes. They say 200 people had died there. We were unable to confirm those numbers of deaths, though we were certainly able to see a large amount of destruction in this village of some 40 to 50 houses, 80 to 90 percent destroyed.
The appearance, there was a multiple bomb impacts in that area, and it did appear as well to be a village that was inhabited by civilians. That was certainly, from what we could tell, and certainly by talking to the survivors of that village, who were digging in the rubble at that time for their lost loved ones.
So that Al Qaeda statement coming immediately after the Taliban taking journalists to see what they claimed was a village of civilians they say. destroyed by allied bombing. Al Qaeda says any continuation of that would result in serious consequences.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Peshawar, Pakistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: As for the war itself, it did seem to turn another page today. Here's our military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States pulled out another big gun in its war against the Taliban, an AC-130 gun ship, a special operations plane with a powerful side-firing gun and a high tech targeting system, that rained deadly canon fire on a section of Kandahar.
Pentagon sources say on day nine, the pace of bombing more than doubled over recent days, as Navy strike aircraft and Air Force B-52 bombers concentrated on killing as many Taliban troops as possible. Pentagon officials stopped at reports that the U.S. planes were avoiding the front lines and Taliban fighters were fleeing to forward positions for safety.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: My comment might be that I suspect that in the period ahead that's not going to be a very safe place to be.
MCINTYRE: The U.S. began psychological warfare as well, dropping leaflets over the weekend that urged Afghans to listen to U.S. broadcasts from a flying radio station, and promised that -- quote -- "the partnership of nations is here to help."
The Pentagon continues to say it's not targeting civilians, and disputed Taliban claims that U.S. bombing had killed 200 people in Karam, a village in the mountains of eastern Afghanistan.
RUMSFELD: We know of certain knowledge that the Taliban leadership and Al Qaeda are accomplished liars -- that they go on television and they say things that we know are absolutely not true.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon speculated if there was any truth to the high death toll, it was a result of secondary explosion that occurred after two caves were hit with penetrating bombs.
RUMSFELD: They were not cooking cookies inside those tunnels. I mean, let's face it. You do not spend that kind of money and dig that far in and store that many weapons and munitions, that it would cause that kind of sustained secondary explosions, unless you have very serious purposes for doing it.
MCINTYRE (on camera): The entry of the low-flying AC-130 gun ship is as close as the Pentagon has come to a ground war in Afghanistan. One of the last times an AC-130 was used, was when the United States was on another manhunt in 1993, when one of the planes flattened a house of Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aideed in Mogadishu. Aideed was never captured.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Across the border in Pakistan, that's where Secretary of State Powell is, and CNN's Christiane Amanpour has more on the Powell visit and the state of play in Pakistan from Islamabad -- Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Aaron, Secretary Powell arrived last night here at this time in Islamabad, and he came in such a heavy blanket of security that, as I said, we haven't even seen a picture of him yet. He's due to meet with the Pakistani president, Musharraf, and then go on to India.
And of course, this visit comes at an extremely crucial time. There were protests in the streets yesterday in Pakistan. A few, it has be said. Not the same amount of protests that had been over the last week. But certainly in Karachi and in some of the other Muslim strongholds, they had called out people on the street to protest the visit of Secretary Powell.
He is due to give an assessment to the Pakistanis of which way and how long this air campaign is going and when they will be able to declare victory. And of course, he is here also on another mission, and that is to keep tensions in the region itself quiet: This would be tensions between India and Pakistan.
Their disputed region of Kashmir: Literally hours before Secretary Powell touched down here, there were reports, and now confirmed, of Indian shelling from the disputed region of Kashmir into Pakistan. Pakistan authorities extremely worried about it. They say there was no provocation. They say the 10 months, the situation had been relatively calm.
And of course, this is precisely the last thing that the United States wants to see happen in this region. They have tried to urge both Pakistan and India, which Colin Powell will visit later on, to keep their own local disputes in check, while this war on terrorism is going on right now in Afghanistan. Aaron.
BROWN: Christiane, thank you. Timing is everything. And that timing couldn't be worse. Thank you for joining us tonight. Christiane Amanpour in Islamabad. Straight ahead, more on what it will take to win the war. Can you win over the people in the region? We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We've talked a lot about the Arab news channel al-Jazeera because it enjoys access to the Taliban and al Qaeda. No other news organization does these days. And because the White House isn't always thrilled by that, but proof again today that al-Jazeera cannot be ignored. National Security adviser Condoleezza Rice went on al- Jazeera's air.
Here's CNN's Garrick Utley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is the other war: of words. President Bush's national security adviser speaking directly to Arabs, including the terrorists.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The United States fully agrees that as soon as possible we should get into the Mitchell process, which lays out a roadmap.
UTLEY: And then there have been the words of the enemy speaking directly to Americans.
AL-ZAWAHIRI, AL QAEDA (through translator): All American people, you ask yourselves, why all this hate against America?
UTLEY (on camera): Which brings us to a new question, which will continue throughout this new war. Now that the enemy can speak directly to the American public, how much should Americans be allowed to hear? How much can they take?
Knowledge, it is said, is power. But who decides what is knowledge and what's propaganda?
(voice-over): In the United States during World War II, there was concern about maintaining morale in the homeland. The government created the Office of War Information. The media didn't print or broadcast stories that would undermine the war effort. In fact, this first picture of American war dead was not published until nearly two years after Pearl Harbor.
Vietnam was television's first war. It was also the first time Americans saw in their living rooms film made by the enemy: POWs being held in North Vietnam.
In the Gulf War, television's first live by satellite war some information did flow out of Iraq. CNN's reports from Baghdad were cleared by Iraqi censors and correspondent Peter Arnett could not move freely. But at least viewers got a limited look inside Iraq...
PETER ARNETT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Iraqis say these bridges are used primarily for civilian traffic.
UTLEY: ... although many Americans felt it amounted to enemy propaganda.
And as for Saddam Hussein himself, although he did use television in a vain attempt to polish his image, he never spoke directly to the American public. But that was then, and Osama bin Laden is very much now.
He and al Qaeda know that power grows out of a camera and a microphone as well as a gun.
(on camera): For soldiers, one of the first rules of war is know your enemy. For government, one of the first concerns is preventing anxiety and fear at home. It's all part of the psychological warfare, the propaganda war to influence your opinion.
(voice-over): So when a statement from an al Qaeda spokesman was made this weekend, CNN and other American news organizations showed only an edited version, at the request of the U.S. government. And after initially criticizing the Al Jazeera channel for being a propaganda pipeline for al Qaeda, the Bush administration has decided to join this battle.
Monday, it was Condoleezza Rice speaking to the Arab-language world. The White House says other senior officials may do the same, including President Bush. Stay tuned.
Garrick Utley, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: This battle for public opinion works both sides. And it may seem as bizarre as it is important. It may also be impossible. It's hard to win in a few short weeks, what has been a long history of anti-American feeling in much of the Islamic world. But it is a battle the administration clearly intends to wage.
Here's CNN Washington bureau chief Frank Sesno.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK SESNO, CNN BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Winning the battle against Osama bin Laden and Afghanistan's Taliban leadership is hard enough. Winning the battle for the hearts and minds of the Afghan people and the wider Muslim world is nothing short of daunting. And it's a task that some say the U.S. has not properly understood or undertaken.
REP. HENRY HYDE (R-IL), INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE: How is it that the country that invented Hollywood and Madison Avenue has such trouble promoting a positive image of itself overseas?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to the Voice of America.
SESNO: In Pashtun -- not that there aren't ambitious efforts -- the Voice of America beams shortwave radio broadcasts in five languages inside Afghanistan everyday.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the terrorist attacks on September 11...
SESNO: Arabic and English are heard out throughout the Muslim world on VOA. From the skies over Afghanistan, leaflets portraying friendship and so-called commando solo planes flying 10 hours a day, broadcasting America's message over shortwave and AM radio, the transmissions tell Afghans that on September 11, 6,000 innocent people were killed in the United States, that military action is not against Afghans or Muslims, but against terrorism and terrorist threats, and that Osama bin Laden and the Taliban have robbed the Afghan people of their culture and heritage.
U.S. food drops are intended to help a malnourished population, but they're also intended to show goodwill.
ANDREW NATSIOS, U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT: A relief effort is a relief effort. It saves peoples' lives. And people know who's helping them.
SESNO: Despite these efforts, some familiar with the region say the U.S. has failed to recognize the cultural disconnect between its message and suspicions in the Muslim world, suspicions fueled by U.S. support for Israel and sanctions against Iraq.
JAMES ZOGBY, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: I don't think the mindset gets changed by a picture on a leaflet. I don't think that the message gets sent by a food ration that is too little, when too many are starving. I think it has to be done in a mass way, that reaches in a very concrete way, to show that we can make a real difference in the future of people.
SESNO: Another problem, several top U.S. officials, past and present point to an absence of influential support of Islamic voices from abroad and at home.
JAMIE METZL, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: The United States has a tremendous reserve of cultural knowledge in the Arab-American community here, but we're not tapping that expertise, to try to help us massage our messages to reach Arab populations. We need to do a much better job of that.
SESNO: One indicator of the urgency of making the case directly, a sudden burst of interest by top U.S. officials in sitting for interviews with al-Jazeera, the high-profile, widely watched Arab news channel.
And now this message, the U.S. is considering buying time on al- Jazeera, high stakes infomercials, to make sure the word gets out unfiltered. The irony, of course, is that al-Jazeera is also Osama bin Laden's favorite channel, the one he uses when he speaks from the caves of Afghanistan. It's called propaganda in the frontlines in the war for public opinion.
Frank Sesno, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: In peacetime, Voice of America's job is not easy. Imagine in wartime. We'll talk with a current and former director of VOA in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're talking about reaching the Muslim world, and the best way to get the message out. Joining us tonight from Washington, Robert Reilly, who's the new director of Voice of America and Sanford Ungar, a former director of VOA, currently president of Goucher College in Baltimore. Welcome to both of you.
Mr. Reilly, let me deal with one issue, before we get into I think the broader question here.
ROBERT REILLY, DIRECTOR, VOA: Sure.
BROWN: You come from the opinion side of Voice of America. That was your background I guess it's called the policy side. That's caused some suspicion, I think, some unease among some of your employees. Fair?
REILLY: Well, first of all, let's be straight that it's from the policy office of VOA, which has one of the three tasks of VOA, which is to present and explain the official views of the United States government. And I would say it has caused no more apprehension in Voice of America than it would in any newspaper, should someone from the editorial page be moved into oversight over the news room.
BROWN: So it's you that has to change hats. It's not the reporters and editors at VOA? Is that a fair way to put it?
REILLY: It is.
BROWN: OK. Is VOA's mission different in wartime than peacetime?
REILLY: Well, as you probably know, VOA, as you alluded to earlier in your program, was born of wartime. And it went on the air in 1942 with the very stirring words that the news may be good, the news may be bad, but we shall tell the truth. And that's not just a motto. That set the standard by which VOA has adhered to in peace and war, and which we are sticking to throughout this current conflict by giving accurate, timely and comprehensive news.
But also, by projecting, explaining, and promoting U.S. foreign policy goals in this U.S.-led coalition in the war against international terrorism.
BROWN: Mr. Ungar, you -- a lot of times, the news is what you put on and what you don't. And it does seem to me that's one way to deal with this question of what VOA is. Do you see Voice of America editing out news that would be uncomfortable for the United States?
SANFORD UNGAR, FORMER DIRECTOR, VOA: Well, I hope not. That certainly hasn't been the practice during the two years that I was director from 1999 to June of this year. And we certainly tried to tell the story straight and all sides of it.
Before I got there, the Clinton impeachment proceedings, for example, were fully reported on VOA, all sides. The strength of Voice of America, if it's going to be strong, if it's going to comply with its charter passed by Congress in 1976, is to tell a full story and a straight story and not to load it or omit things. I think it's very important for the people of VOA to be able to function as journalists. That is what brings us credibility in the United States.
BROWN: Mr. Reilly, there was this flap over the interview that VOA did with Mullah Omar. And the State Department's unhappiness with VOA doing it, running it, airing it. Should the State Department in those situations butt out?
REILLY: Well, first of all, that's an incorrect portrayal of what happened. No interview was Mullah Omar was ever broadcast by VOA. nor was it ever planned to be broadcast by VOA. That was a misunderstanding.
What ran were certain actualities from that interview which were embedded in a larger news story, which also contained actualities from President Bush and from some other people. It was a news item, not an interview.
The interview never ran, nor would we ever run a straight interview with a terrorist. I just want to reinforce something that Sanford Ungar said. You have to ask yourself why, before the beginning of hostilities in Afghanistan, were over 80 percent of the people listening to the Voice of America?
It's because VOA has met the very standards he laid out, but he knew that al Sharia Radio of the Taliban was propaganda, was not telling them the full truth, and that the Voice of America was. And that's why we had the trust of our huge Afghan audience.
BROWN: Mr. Ungar, that point is an interesting one, because I know I'll go downstairs and look at my e-mails. And there will be a string from people who said, look, the other side is playing a propaganda game. Why shouldn't the United States play on an even playing field, play by the same rules that they will say the bad guys are playing by?
UNGAR: Well, the great strength of the United States is that it doesn't play by whatever ground rules the other side plays by. We have our own principles to live by.
The fact that freedom of the press is suppressed in other countries does not lead to us to be tempted or to like the idea of suppressing freedom of the press in order to get our way better.
I don't think Americans do propaganda very well. I don't think we ever have. I think it's picked up. It seems insincere. And I don't think we should play by the rules, the lowest common denominator rules.
It won't work anyway. The reason that 80 percent and Bob Reilly's figures are accurate, 80 percent of the Afghan men who were surveyed last year said they listened at least once a week, 67 percent said every day.
The Taliban themselves said at the time and have told American journalists, they listen to the VOA because they know their own radio is pure propaganda. VOA and BBC are the only ways to get information in Afghanistan. If VOA declines to the level of propaganda or the level of the local radio al Sharia, that'll leave all to the BBC. And I don't think we want to do that. BBC may be able to do a good job, but I don't think VOA should lose the credibility it's taken so many years to establish.
REILLY: The interview with Mullah Omar, by the way, the excerpts of it were delayed for five days, which I think was an unfortunate thing, an unfortunate decision that was pressed upon the temporary leadership of VOA.
I think that the Voice of America should be the Voice of America and should have no fear of broadcasting other voices, of course, in context, of course with other opinions presented.
BROWN: Mr. Ungar, Mr. Reilly, appreciate your time, both of you tonight. Thanks for joining us, not an easy task. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: New York's mayor isn't the only mayor with problems these days halfway across the country. Another mayor had a lot of problems, even before September 11. Candy Crowley visited her in her search and ours for the new normal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): East St. Louis, Illinois is poor and crime-ridden. Property values have bottomed out. Unemployment is twice the national average.
MAYOR DEBRA POWELL, EAST ST. LOUIS: I thought my days would be spent with trying to get these buildings down here, downtown demolished, trying to get the sanitary sewers separated from the storm sewers, trying to lower the property taxes.
CROWLEY: Until September 11th, Debra Powell heard the same questions East St. Louis mayors have confronted for decades, can you stop the roof from leaking? Crackdown on crime? Clean up the abandon properties? Improve the schools? And find me a job? Now this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm worried about terrorism. I think you can deal with the rest, but you know just like a thief in the night. You don't know where they're going to come from.
POWELL: Their main focus has been, if it happens here, are we ready, mayor? What are you doing in the event that something happens here, to make sure that we're safe? And that's on their minds. And I couldn't stand there and tell them everything is fine, because it's not.
CROWLEY: It is not fine, because East St. Louis police and fire forces are bare bones. The hospital is hurting. And the mayor fears those avenues she once pushed as ways to bring commerce into the city now might bring something else.
POWELL: Location, location, location. We have the railways. We have the waterways. We have the highways. We have two airports at Lambert and mid-America. Well, we're right in the center. We have the Metrolink coming through. The very attributes that we touted, and said, hey, we have it, we're ready, can be those very same mechanisms to be used to really do some damage.
CROWLEY: And living just across the Mississippi from the gateway to the West, her honor worries that her city might be both in the line of fire, as well as last in line.
POWELL: And we're right across from St. Louis. And the focus is over there. And it's like, "Hey, excuse us, we're here."
CROWLEY: The problem now is figuring out how to address new fears and meet old needs. City services to the poor, the sick, the elderly and the children are heavily dependent on state and local money.
POWELL: The greatest fear is that there will be an economic dry- up for us. The well will not be there for us, but the people will still come down complaining, wanting help and wanting for assistance.
CROWLEY: But in the end, the mayor of East St. Louis says whatever her city's problems, she will not begrudge whatever money the federal government spends to pursue terrorists.
POWELL: We're talking about preservation of life as we know it. What's happening in the airports and the downside in the travel, the economic impact of what has happened, we're going to bounce back. But it bothers me that they even thought they can get away with it.
So as the kids say, "Bring it on because we're ready."
Candy Crowley, CNN, East St. Louis, Illinois.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the pace of events these days, the war in Afghanistan, the bombing, the diplomacy, the cases of anthrax, and the investigation in this country, you can sometimes forget how we got here at all. We leave you tonight with a reminder.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEVITT: We met in college at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) University in 1989. We worked together in pizza shop. He was the delivery guy. I was the cook. We started dating. And we were together for nine years.
He was pretty wild in college. And everybody has a Bob story. Unforgettable, that's how they would describe him, and outrageous.
And again, he lit up a room. And people knew he was there. And he would tell great stories and had every in stitches, laughing. And that's what we loved about Bob. He sort of burst into a room, and he's just -- he's very charismatic and had a lot of energy.
He was always active in sports. You know, again, always going for the challenge, the sky diving or kayaking, or you know, always pushing things to the limit.
There really wasn't anything that he wouldn't do.
He made a killer chili. The chili was amazing. And everyone knew Bob's chili.
And he'd try to teach you something that he's learned, because he liked to do that, to sort of dispel his wisdom.
He would be very happy being remembered the way he is being remembered, and his family also feels that way. Because he is being remembered: He's being remembered as smiles and laughter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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