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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
America Strikes Back
Aired October 22, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Judy Woodruff, filling in for Aaron. It seemed, for a brief while last week, that the anthrax outbreak might be easing somewhat. We hadn't seen a new case of inhaled anthrax, the most deadly kind of infection, in five days -- none beyond Florida.
Well, the optimism evaporated yesterday. And the situation darkened dramatically today. The chief health officer for Washington, D.C. was blunt. This is a different day.
Dr. Ivan Walks confirmed a second confirmed case of inhaled anthrax infection. The first case in the D.C. area was announced yesterday. Even more disturbing, two other suspicious deaths of postal workers that appear to be due to anthrax. We'll hear from Dr. Walks shortly.
All four of those postal employees worked at Washington's Brentwood mail facility, handling Capitol Hill mail. Much more on the anthrax scare and how it has been handled in a moment.
As the battle in Afghanistan continued, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld reacted to news leaks ahead of troop movements on the ground Friday. He said, "it just floors me."
From New York, a moving ceremony in the middle of the destruction. Yet another person who died in the line of duty pulled from the rubble.
At the same time, more than 300 firefighters were born, sworn in today. They step in after hundreds of firefighters were lost, along with thousands of others on September 11th.
We want to get to some headlines from our reporters around the globe on all the major stories that we are covering for you tonight. Let's start here in Washington, where the anthrax scare took an alarming turn. Our Jeanne Meserve has been following the story -- Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Judy, there is one war, but there are two fronts, as Tom Ridge, the director of the office of homeland security. And on the second domestic battlefield, two more appear to have fallen. They were postal workers who officials strongly suspect died of inhalation anthrax. But neither snow, nor rain, nor gloom of night will stop the mail, and officials say anthrax isn't going to stop it either -- Judy.
Well, as the anthrax scare escalated today, so did the debate about how it is being handled. Susan Candiotti has been covering all those developments -- Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Judy, investigators trying to figure out how Washington postal workers inhaled anthrax from unopened letters. And postal workers want to know why they weren't tested sooner.
WOODRUFF: And now to Capitol Hill and the plans there. Jonathan Karl has been covering that piece of the story. Hi, Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Judy. The Capitol building will reopen for business tomorrow, but the scare continues as the House and Senate office buildings, where most of the work up here actually gets done, will remain sealed off for at least another day.
WOODRUFF: All right.
The strike against the Taliban, meantime, continued in Afghanistan today. In a little while we'll get the latest from the region from our Nic Robertson, who is in Islamabad.
So we'll get back to all these stories and all these reporters coming up in the newscast, but we want first to start in Washington, where the understatement of the day came from the secretary of health and human services, Tommy Thompson.
He said -- quote -- "this is some serious stuff." Two more cases of inhalation anthrax were confirmed, the first outside of Florida. Two people died today, possibly from inhalation anthrax as well. Now, all of them had worked in the facility that processed the letter filled with anthrax that arrived a week ago today at Senator Tom Daschle's office.
Jeanne Meserve has been following that anthrax story and she joins us now -- Jeanne.
MESERVE: Judy, District of Columbia officials say they may get test results very soon on one of two postal workers who they suspect died of inhalation anthrax.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: It's very clear that their symptoms are suspicious, and their deaths are likely due to anthrax.
MESERVE (voice-over): The two were employees at the Brentwood postal facility in the District of Columbia, through which the anthrax contaminated letter to Senator Tom Daschle would have passed. Two other employees from Brentwood have been diagnosed with inhalation anthrax and are hospitalized, and nine other individuals in the Washington area are being monitored for the disease. The Brentwood facility was closed Sunday. Thousands of postal workers in the Washington area are being tested for exposure to anthrax. Postal workers are being offered gloves and masks to wear on the job. And postal officials say they will no longer use blasts of air to blow dust out of their machines, in an apparent effort to prevent anthrax from becoming airborne.
Also, the postal service went shopping for new technology that would use ultraviolet light to sanitize the mail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's used on food. It's used on surgical equipment and medical supplies. So we're very comfortable that it's a safe technology.
MESERVE: It will take some time for those machines to be purchased and installed, so for the time being, the postal service is still urging employees and the public to keep a lookout for suspicious items.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: The federal government clearly wants to project a sense of normalcy, and so officials emphasize repeatedly today that mail delivery will continue uninterrupted, unless they suspect anthrax. Then, in the words of the postmaster general, they will pull back -- Judy?
WOODRUFF: So, Jeanne, how do they determine whether there is reason to believe anthrax was involved? Are they going to wait for another postal worker to run to the hospital?
MESERVE: Well, they've done a series of swabs all through the Brentwood facility. There also is a facility near Baltimore that they have some questions about. They're doing environmental testing there as well. Meanwhile, more than 2000 postal workers from the Washington area are being tested for exposure to anthrax. They are using all the results from those tests to try and put together this puzzle, and try and figure out exactly who might be at risk -- Judy.
WOODRUFF: All right. Jeanne Meserve here in Washington. Thanks.
Well, today's developments here in Washington left many postal workers asking why. Why weren't their buildings closed sooner? And why weren't workers tested sooner? More on that angle from CNN's Susan Candiotti -- Susan.
CANDIOTTI: Well, Judy, no answers yet, that question posed tonight. Did authorities move as quickly as they could have to test postal workers in Washington, where two more are infected with anthrax inhalation, and two more died of suspected anthrax.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): When the anthrax-tainted letter was opened in the office of Senate majority leader Tom Daschle, almost immediately, hundreds of Senate staffers were tested, even those nowhere near Daschle's office. But in New Jersey, it took six days to shut down the Trenton post office sorting facility, after the first of two anthrax letters postmarked there came to light. That, after the first of two postal employees developed anthrax skin infection.
And postal employees in the District of Columbia were still at work, even though that Trenton letter to Senator Daschle had to go through the Brentwood sorting office before going to Capitol Hill.
JOHN POTTER, POSTMASTER GENERAL: We have been advised that if it's a sealed envelope, that it would not transmit anthrax.
CANDIOTTI: But if Capitol Hill was shut down for testing, why not the postal center?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For it to go to the Capitol, it has to come to our building anyway. You know, better safe than sorry. They should have closed it, and then said all clear. No one said nothing. Keep working. Keep working.
CANDIOTTI: On Sunday, the first case of inhalation anthrax at the Brentwood sorting facility. And for the first time, 2,000 co- workers given antibiotics.
RIDGE: We took immediate steps to treat every worker who might have been exposed.
CANDIOTTI: But two postal workers from that same Brentwood facility died. Health officials say they suspect anthrax. One of those workers made two trips to the hospital for nausea and stomach cramps. The first time, Sunday, he was sent home.
DR. SCOTT KELSO, GREATER SOUTHERN MD. HOSPITAL: We actually went and looked at the chest X-rays again, didn't see anything out of the ordinary. Had normal blood counts, had normal vital signs, when he was sent home. So even after the fact of knowing how precipitously he declined, I don't think that any one of us would have done anything different.
CANDIOTTI: Did authorities move quickly enough to close the post offices? Some perspective: It took three days after photo editor Robert Stevens died October 5th of inhalation anthrax, before 700 American Media employees and visitors were tested in Florida. And that was the very first case.
So the answer from health officials about the decision to keep the Brentwood post office open is this:
DR. IVAN WALKS, D.C. CHIEF HEALTH OFFICER: This is a new day for us. We had given folks, as we always do, the best advice we had at the time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: As one doctor put it, this is a situation that is still evolving. When investigators cannot figure out, at the postal facility, since the letters were not opened during the sorting process, how was the anthrax inhaled?
Judy, they're skill scratching their heads on that one.
WOODRUFF: All right. Susan Candiotti, we appreciate that.
Well, you might remember that the House of Representatives was criticized by some last week for closing shop while the Senate stayed in town. The "New York Post" summed it up with one word, "wimps." Well, after what we saw today, perhaps extra caution makes sense. The Capitol building will be open tomorrow, but Congressional offices will remain closed.
Jonathan Karl joins us now with an update. Hi, Jonathan.
KARL: Hi, Judy.
And Congressional leaders had hoped that those Congressional office buildings would have been opened by tomorrow. In fact, they'd hoped the Senate buildings would be open today, but no such luck. And that's because of the testing and the screening. The environmental screening of those office buildings goes on.
So what you saw today was groups of hazmat workers going in, equipped in, as you can see, their hazmat gears, into the office buildings of the Capitol, to try to screen for possible signs of anthrax. So that means when the Capitol police spokesperson, Lieutenant Dan Nichols, came out today to announce what he said was the good news that the Capitol building would be open, he had a significant caveat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. DAN NICHOLS, CAPITOL POLICE: However, at this point we're still analyzing the data that's come back, with regard to the House and Senate office building environmental sweeps. Because the data is still being analyzed, we have been advised it would be a prudent course of action to follow -- and the House and Senate leaders concur -- that the House and Senate office buildings will not be opened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: So that means, while the Capitol building itself will be open, the overwhelming area of the Capitol complex, most of it will be closed down. You can see on that map, the Capitol building, only that small, relatively small white space in the middle. The blue space on the left, the red space on the right side, that is the office buildings. That's where the committee hearings go, that's where the representatives and senators have their individual offices. They will all be completely sealed down for at least another day.
As a matter of fact, Judy, they've told us that no decontamination has been started yet, because they want to continue this fact-finding process. And the decontamination of the areas where the anthrax was found, like the Hart office building, will take some time. So for those areas, it's quite clear that the office buildings could remain closed for a long time. With that in mind, they have set up alternative offices for some staff, away from the Capitol, several blocks away. On the Senate side, what that means is that each individual senator will have an off-site office and space for just two staffers. Similar arrangements made on the House side, but that means space for just a fraction of the 20,000 people that actually work in the Capitol complex.
And one other point to make. One thing that investigators are looking for up here is signs of a possible second anthrax letter. We know about the Daschle anthrax letter, but in light of the fact that they have found traces of anthrax in a mailroom on the House side of the Capitol, they are looking all around the Capitol for signs there may be another letter out there -- Judy.
WOODRUFF: Well, the whole thing is just remarkable, Jon.
And I just have one question -- I have a lot of questions, actually. But the one question I want to ask you now, are they absolutely comfortable certain that there's no anthrax in the Capitol building itself?
KARL: Well, the short answer is no. They believe the Capitol building is safe. But we've also been told by several Congressional sources that there were three initial hits, preliminary tests, that showed signs of possible anthrax in one very specific place in the Capitol building itself. That is in a room, it's called the LBJ room. It's located just a short way off the floor of the Senate floor.
And what we know about that room, why that is significant, is that two days after that letter was opened in Tom Daschle's office, we are told by the Capitol police that the FBI asked staffers that were in Daschle's office to bring the clothes they were wearing on that day over into the Capitol building, into the LBJ room, so the clothes could be taken and tested for signs of possible anthrax contamination.
Well, now we know that in that LBJ room, there were signs, very slight signs of possible anthrax. Now, they believe that it's very localized. Even if the preliminary tests come back definitively true, it's very controlled. But a lot of people up here questioning: Why did the FBI ask people to bring possibly contaminated clothes into the Capitol building two days after the exposure -- Judy?
WOODRUFF: A lot of people doing a lot of rethinking right now. All right, Jon Karl at the Capitol. Thanks.
Well, if you listened to Washington health officials talk about the anthrax situation today, you heard an overwhelming sense of urgency. D.C.'s top health official, Dr. Ivan Walks, said postal employees who had been in the hot spots should get evaluated immediately. In fact, he said the word "immediately" three times in one news conference.
Dr. Walks joins me now. And we thank you for being with us.
WALKS: Thank you. WOODRUFF: Dr. Walks, what update, first of all -- or do you have an update, on the two people who have been diagnosed with inhalation anthrax, or any of the other nine that you're watching very closely?
WALKS: Both of the people who have been diagnosed confirmed with inhalation anthrax, the latest update is that they are both receiving excellent care, and are clinically doing as well as they were the last time we checked on them.
WOODRUFF: Is that good, that there has been no deterioration, or are you still worried about them?
WALKS: We are still concerned. They have a very serious illness and we are watching them very closely. CDC doctors are out there, providing support to the excellent care they're getting at the facility.
WOODRUFF: Now, what about the other nine you identified as exhibiting worrying symptoms? Have any of those gotten any worse?
WALKS: No. Actually, it's not even the same nine. We've had someone who was just sort of passing through town that was reported. All of those reports indicate to us that our public health surveillance system is working very well.
WOODRUFF: Now, the two individuals who died with suspicious symptoms, any more information tonight that can confirm a connection to anthrax?
WALKS: We are much closer to confirming one case. The blood cultures were positive for a bacteria that looks just like the anthrax bacteria. The characterization will tell us for sure. But the autopsy report does support the kind of death that you would, that would you connect with anthrax. So we are treating those two as if they were anthrax cases, and actually, the confirmatory test is more academic for us.
WOODRUFF: Dr. Walks, I heard you say that it was the CDC's advice that testing of these postal workers not be done any sooner. Was that a mistake on their part?
WALKS: I think that this is a different day for us. This is a new day. Until -- since 1978, we saw one case in Florida. Then another, and now two more. We are in brand new territory. Everyone is working very closely together and giving the best advice they can, real time.
Folks started with Senator Daschle letter and worked all the way back. They tracked that very carefully, and they gave the best advice they had at the time.
WOODRUFF: Would you, in the future, follow the CDC advice?
WALKS: Absolutely. We are working very closely with the CDC. The postal service is -- I can't tell you how wonderful it is to work with them. Their employees are first. We are going to do something tomorrow that we had not done up until this point, which is, all of the postal workers who work in work areas connected to the other facilities in the District, will all tomorrow begin receiving treatment.
WOODRUFF: When did you first sense that you had a serious problem?
WALKS: We knew we had a serious problem very early. Our...
WOODRUFF: Very early, being when?
WALKS: Friday I think it was, when we got -- when the gentlemen, the first gentlemen who was confirmed went to Inova, Fairfax. They called us and they told us it was suspicious. At that point, we became concerned.
WOODRUFF: And this is the gentlemen who's still in the hospital.
WALKS: Who's still in the hospital.
WOODRUFF: But what about -- one of the victims who died today checked into a hospital, or went to a hospital in southern Maryland. They sent him off thinking he had the flu. Now, the CDC had already -- hadn't there been an alert that had gone out at that point, to hospitals?
WALKS: We actually have a regional plan, Maryland and Virginia, and the District of Columbia. And on September 26th, we sent out a notification to hospitals regionally, saying to look for the flu-like symptoms. But we're talking about the best clinical judgment that very dedicated health professionals make at the time, and it's not appropriate now, while things are still under investigation, for me to second-guess their judgment. They did exactly what they thought they should do at the time.
WOODRUFF: Washington, D.C., clearly, a smaller city than New York. But, is Washington prepared to handle this if it spreads beyond where it is right now?
WALKS: Washington is actually the biggest little city, because we have all the federal resources right here. One of the things that people have talked about is: know who you would call when something happens. I think we should redefine that "know," as in "relationship." Know who you would call. We know who we would call. We have relationships with them, and they're working with us now.
WOODRUFF: And what do you say to those postal workers who are out there tonight, either angry or confused, upset by what has happened?
WALKS: Over the last two days, we wanted to get about 2,200 postal workers in, get them evaluated, and get them on treatment. We also expanded that to people who work in the media that have been in that work area with those postal workers. Over the last two days, about 3,000 of those folks have been started on medication. Tomorrow the postal service will bring their workers so we can check off the personnel files and know exactly who we're treating. Not one person will be left out. All of them will be put on treatment. That means while they are receiving treatment, we can go through, do the checking, look for the anthrax, clean it up, but they'll be safe. And that's our priority.
WOODRUFF: But you're not relaxing yet, obviously.
WALKS: We won't relax for a long time.
WOODRUFF: All right, Dr. Ivan Walks, who is the head of public health for the District of Columbia. Thank you very much.
WALKS: Thank you.
WOODRUFF: We appreciate it. Thank you.
Coming up, understanding the enemy we can't see. It's not an easy task. Anthrax, explained. Stay with us. Or, we'll try to explain it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOODRUFF: We -- and it's been mostly Aaron, because of course he's the one who's normally anchoring this program at 10:00 Eastern time -- but from time to time, we've been looking at the anthrax story as it has unfolded, taking a few minutes for a refresher course, for lack of a better word, in the disease.
It seems particularly appropriate now, given all the questions today about how it's been spreading, and how prepared authorities are to identify who has it in time to do something about it. For that, let's turn to Dr. Franklin Cockerill. He is a professor and chair of microbiology at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
Dr. Cockerill, thank you for being with us.
Let me just start by asking you, with today's developments, what more do you know about this anthrax that's been inhaled? What more do you know about the source of it?
DR. FRANKLIN COCKERILL, MAYO CLINIC MICROBIOLOGIST: Well, we don't know specifically what the source is, where it's come from. I think what we're learning is that there was probably more exposure than what we had originally thought.
WOODRUFF: When I say "source," I don't mean necessarily where. But the fact that anthrax inside an envelope that was sealed, and some accounts I have read said it was even taped up, that the anthrax spores could get out, be inhaled and presumably cause the death and the serious illness -- death of two and the serious illness of two others?
COCKERILL: Well, Judy, I haven't been involved in the cases, or in any way with the investigation. But one could speculate on perhaps how these patients may have become infected, how the spores were aerosolized. Certainly, in the laboratory medicine world, when we send patient specimens or bacteria from institution to institution, we use containers that are required by the government. And they are virtually not breakable.
Envelopes or other conveyances that are paper or cardboard were not meant to carry biologically hazardous infectious disease agents. So it's probable that, despite the tape on envelopes or boxes, that these envelopes are porous around where the tape, or where they are supposed to be attached, so that the spores did get out and did infect individuals.
WOODRUFF: Well, the fact that it got out, the fact that it was inhaled, does this tell you anything about the potency of this particular anthrax?
COCKERILL: I don't think, Judy, it's the potency as it is, probably, the innoculum, or the amount of spores that were inhaled, or over what period of time. Certainly we know that one-one millionth of a gram of spores can cause inhalational anthrax, which is the most serious form of the disease, and has a very high mortality.
WOODRUFF: And how sophisticated would someone need to be in order to prepare that anthrax?
COCKERILL: Well, I'm a microbiologist, Judy, and we grow micro organisms all the time. So this, to microbiologists, is not that sophisticated. If you can follow a recipe and you have an incubator, you can prepare anthrax.
I think, basically, it's not so much how you produce it, but the quantity, and whether it's in a spore form, which is the highly infectious form.
WOODRUFF: And, Dr. Cockerill, if you were in Washington right now, what questions would you be asking about what's going on?
COCKERILL: Well, again, I'm not personally involved in all the patients that have contracted the illness so far. So, I lack any experience and insight into what is actually going on. But recently, with the number of postal workers that have become infected, one would ask the question about how the aerosolization may have occurred, and whether the people who have performed this biocrime may have actually contaminated the outside of the envelopes.
Maybe they put in more spores than what had been used in other biocrime events that we've seen. And perhaps the handling or the processing of the envelopes with some of the automated equipment may have some effect on the spread of the spores, the spores getting out of the envelopes.
WOODRUFF: All right. Well, those are all questions, plus I know some more. But, Dr. Franklin Cockerill with the Mayo Clinic, we want to thank you very much. It's good to see you. We appreciate you joining us tonight.
COCKERILL: Thank you.
WOODRUFF: An update on the war and the skirmish over what we know about it, when our SPECIAL REPORT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOODRUFF: The war in Afghanistan appears to be evolving in the choice of targets, in the timetable, even in the vocabulary. The phrases of the day, for example, "tank plinking" and "ground truth," which means basic truth, we gather. Choice words, too, on leaking and on claims from the Taliban. In all, it was a busy day for our CNN military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre. Here's his report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The anti-Taliban forces in northern Afghanistan are beginning to see results, as U.S. planes seek out concentrations of Taliban, and Al Qaeda fighters dug in on the front lines.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Now we're starting to work on some Taliban targets that arrayed out in the field, against folks that we would like to help.
MCINTYRE: Part of the emphasis now is on what the military calls tank plinking. Cockpit videos released by the Pentagon show Taliban tanks being picked off in various locations around Afghanistan. But the Pentagon admits that so far the outnumbered Northern Alliance has been unable to capture the strategic northern city of Mazar-e-Sharif, or advance on the Taliban-held capital of Kabul.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We have had uneven success, to the extent we have excellent ground to air coordination, the success improves. To the extent that some of the forces move forward against Taliban and Al Qaeda forces, our success improves, because it flushes them.
MCINTYRE: CNN has learned new details of Friday's U.S. commando raid against two Taliban targets. While Army paratroopers dropped from C-130s on a dry lake airstrip 60 miles southwest of Kandahar, other special forces flew on helicopters from the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk, with logistical support from a forward base at Dalbandin, one of three Pakistani bases being used by the United States.
The objective was a compound used by Taliban leader Mohammed Omar. The operation was supposed to be shrouded in complete secrecy, so Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was incensed that Friday morning newspaper reports signaled the ground campaign was beginning.
But his anger appeared directed at the leakers more than the press.
RUMSFELD: I'm too busy then to run around trying to find who did that. I don't know if anyone is, to be perfectly honest. I certainly hope that the people who are parachuting in don't find the person. MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says there were no casualties and officials could not explain a set of landing gear the Taliban showed as evidence they downed a U.S. helicopter. The Pentagon also denied there's any evidence that the U.S. bombed a hospital where the Taliban claimed 100 people were killed. The U.S. is still reviewing the case.
(on camera): Pentagon officials insist they knew that Taliban leader Mohammed Omar was no longer at the compound before they launched the raid. Nevertheless they said they got valuable intelligence, which is taking some time to process because of a shortage of translators.
Jamie McIntyre CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WOODRUFF: More now on the line being walked these days between the public's need to know and the Pentagon's need for secrecy. Winston Churchill took an extreme view. In wartime he said truth is so precious that she should be always be attended by a body guard of lives.
But times have changed and so has warfare. Has the line moved as well?
Joining me now to talk about that and where the war is headed, retired General Don Shepperd. He comes to us tonight from the CNN center in Atlanta. Hello again, General Shepperd. My first question: Is Secretary Rumsfeld right to be angry at the leakers?
RETIRED GEN. DONALD SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Judy this is nothing new. Of course he's angry at the leakers. He is angry at anything that could put troops in danger potentially or for real. It is very difficult these days with all the reporting capability to keep things secret.
Nobody from the Pentagon goes and lays out a briefing to the press and says this is what is happening, please keep it quiet until later. That is not what happens. There are just so many sources available. And at the initial onset of hostilities these things always happen. You have to tighten down. You have to warn people. You have to warn them about giving snippets of information.
So this is nothing new but of course he had a right to be angry and incensed that it could put our troops in danger. It's a warning to everyone, Judy and I think everyone understands it.
WOODRUFF: I think most people in the press, I know certainly we at CNN about putting any information out which would jeopardize any U.S. soldier, anybody on the ground or in the air over there for that matter, but let me just ask you, by having the story in the newspaper the morning of this operation, saying generally that ground forces were going to be operating, did that story jeopardize that mission?
SHEPPERD: Well, I'll have to let Secretary Rumsfeld decide whether it jeopardized that mission or not. This is very difficult. It is difficult for we military analysts to decide what to say and what not to say. There are many people that say, you shouldn't be saying anything. Don't give them any information.
My view is and I think most of the military analysts' view is that it's simply impossible to keep the American public in the dark. It's very important that we talk to the American people about what we are doing with their sons and daughters. They need to know we have good equipment. They need to know we have good leadership, responsible leadership. They need to have an idea of what is going on without the details of the targets or when it's going to be launched.
So again, I'll let the secretary and the Pentagon characterize the leaks and the information out there. We try to be very responsible at CNN and I have been very, very impressed. People come to me daily saying, is it okay to talk about this, or isn't it or how should we couch this. I'm very encouraged by what I see, Judy.
WOODRUFF: I'm asking you these questions because they did come up at the briefing and the secretary of defense spent a considerable amount of time on them. Let me ask you now about the war and how it is going. I know you listen to all these briefings. What is your sense now? Is there progress being made, sufficient to what the Pentagon had wanted at this point?
SHEPPERD: I'm not sure exactly what the Pentagon wanted, but progress is being made. We have now gone against the fixed targets. We have started some of the things you talked about -- tank plinking, which is hitting individual tanks, came from the Gulf War.
We are now, as General Myers said today, moving against targets, a raid against the Northern Alliance and other people that we want to help. Now another thing that is very important to realize is, these strikes look devastating. We see the bombs drop. Remember, this is a few fighters dropping individual weapons. This is by no means massive aerial attacks of which we are capable.
This is a number of strikes per day of around 90 to a hundred is what we have been seeing, and in the Gulf War we had as many as 2,500 a day. So imagine 25 times what we have got. I think we are making progress but again we may not see the movement of lines, the fall of cities as we normally think of war.
It may be a slow process or even a rapid process, the dissolve of the Taliban and then the establishment of a coalition government. That may be what we see, Judy.
WOODRUFF: All right, General Don Shepperd. And I will tell you I was struck by both General Myers and Secretary Rumsfeld saying this is not going to be a war where you go from the air campaign to the ground campaign or vice versa, that it's going to be a mix and you are not going to know which is under way at any particular moment until you hear about it later. All right. General Don Shepperd, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Good to see you again.
When we come back, the view from the ground.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOODRUFF: Well, we've been talking about the increasing pressure on the Pentagon, from allies, to local politics, to the Muslim holy days of Ramadan, to winter coming.
Let's get a view from the ground now, and CNN's Nic Robertson, he is in Islamabad. It's good evening here but good morning to you, Nic.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Judy. The view from here particularly from the Taliban and their press conference Monday, getting much stronger. Very, very tough language. Some of the toughest language we have hard from them recently. They talked in terms of the ongoing air campaign as being genocide, of being atrocities. They accuse the United States of now killing some 1,000 Afghan civilians. They say that this is a terroristic campaign of bombings, those targeting civilians.
The Taliban ambassador said that 100 people yesterday had been killed a hospital in the western city of Herat. He said 18 people had been injured in two clinics elsewhere in Afghanistan. He also said that the Taliban had shot down two United States helicopters killing all troops onboard. These facts very, very difficult for us to confirm, but the language that we are hearing from the Taliban at this time is very, very tough. Some of the toughest we have heard.
Also we are told from a number of sources inside Afghanistan that Taliban morale is particularly high at this time. They feel that they are able to withstand the attacks militarily so far, very well. Here in Pakistan, Pakistan's president General Musharraf addressed the nation. We have heard him a number of times and most recently on CNN's LARRY KING, saying that he wants the bombing campaigns to be short.
But in his address here that was really aimed at the domestic population here in Pakistan he was saying that United States troops that are here supporting the international fight on terrorism would not remain long inside Pakistan. In fact, he said, I can guarantee that they will not be here forever.
Yesterday Pakistan military sources told us that there are some 1,800 U.S. service personnel on the ground in Pakistan at three air bases throughout the spread between those air bases in the country. They say they are very busy. They say that they are working with helicopters, C-130s, refueling. They have air traffic controllers, full repair and recovery crews at those sites.
But President Musharraf's address was very much to the population here and aimed at calming fears that (A) the military campaign will go on a long time and (B) that there would a long-term United States military presence here -- Judy.
WOODRUFF: Nic, very quickly, is the pressure, the public pressure, on Musharraf to encourage the U.S. to get this over with quickly? Is it building, is it waning, is it staying the same? ROBERTSON: There is an amount of pressure on President Musharraf. And certainly we have seen since the bombing started that public opinion here has been very much against the bombing inside Afghanistan.
And this is something that General Musharraf has to weigh against all those people that back him because they recognize that he is able to deal with some of the radical Islamic elements inside Pakistan. There are many people here that have wanted that dealt with. And also there is some financial support coming to Pakistan, so there is a balance -- Judy.
WOODRUFF: Nic Robertson, reporting from Islamabad where it is now Tuesday morning. Nic, thanks very much.
Afghanistan is a place with true boundaries and loyalties that you can't read off a map. Coming up next, a reality check from someone who knows that country and its people well. Stay with us.
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WOODRUFF: We've all been getting an education on Afghanistan lately. Under any other circumstances, it would be fascinating or perhaps frustrating. Today, what we know and don't know is much more than academic.
So we're especially grateful for the services from time to time of CNN consultant Thomas Gouttierre. Now, he's director of the Center for Afghanistan Studies at the University of Nebraska.
Professor Gouttierre, just help us understand once again -- what are the different ethnic groups that make up Afghanistan?
THOMAS GOUTTIERRE, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA: Well, Afghanistan is really a nice quiltwork of ethnicities. And the largest group are the Pashtuns themselves, who are in the southern part of the country -- about 38 percent.
And then we have the Farsiwan, or Persian-speaking, and Tajik people, who are the same. And they constitute about 28 percent of the population.
And then there are about 19 percent of the population being Hazaras. And they all speak Persian. And, in a sense, if there is a majority in Afghanistan, is that -- those are the non-Pashtuns, kind of Persian-speaking peoples.
In addition to these, we have the Uzbeks in the north and the Baluchi in the south. So these all kind of touch the various countries around them. And the Uzbeks kind of border Uzbekistan and the Tajiks -- Tajikistan and the Persian speakers, who are like the Tajiks -- with Iran. So it's a nice patchwork quilt.
WOODRUFF: How do all the pieces of the patchwork quilt get along with each other? GOUTTIERRE: Well, right now, they're not getting along as well as they did in the period that I was living in Afghanistan, the 60's and 70's. That was after 200 years, literally, of putting together a kind of humpty-dumpty in Afghanistan with a few cracks but, certainly, something that existed .
The war with the Soviet Union and then the subsequent civil war that we are seeing now has created a lot of division and bitterness. Some ethnic cleansing, unfortunately, some religious divisions that are far more exaggerated now than they were during that period with which I am most familiar.
And that is going to be a difficult challenge for any subsequent type of government, traditional or otherwise, to address in the period after the Taliban are out of Afghanistan.
WOODRUFF: So, if you could play God, if you will, and say, "I'm going to design a government. I'm going to put something together that is going to hold the country together, that is going to last, that's going to satisfy all countries in the region and remain stable" -- what would it look like?
GOUTTIERRE: Well it would follow the pattern of what the Afghans recognize as a traditional form of government and social structure in their own society based on the tribal and village leaderships that have a lot of support from their constituencies. A kind of proportional democracy, not man for man but -- in an one man, one vote, but certainly a proportional type of democracy.
What the Afghans need right now is something that's traditional, that's based on their own history. They have not had that since 1973 and a great part of what we see today, this division, is based on kind of convoluted forms of social, political structures that Afghans are really -- are not comfortable with and that are driven by religious considerations more than by traditions.
WOODRUFF: And yes or no -- do you think they're headed to what you think they should have?
GOUTTIERRE: Well, I think we're moving, but slowly and it's more difficult to move with personnel and these kind of things than with military equipment.
WOODRUFF: Yes it is. That is an understatement.
Professor Thomas Gouttierre of the University of Nebraska, thank you so much. And we appreciate your joining us again.
GOUTTIERRE: You bet.
WOODRUFF: It's good to see you.
And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WOODRUFF: This nation has undergone an incredible trauma since September the 11th -- thousands dead in New York, Pennsylvania and Washington.
An exotic disease kills one man, probably more -- a deliberate act of terror. Hundreds of thousands of jobs lost, and yet, the latest poll numbers show that Americans are surprisingly resilient. Some might even say defiantly optimistic.
Here to talk about all this: CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider.
Bill, how -- before the events of today, because we know this poll was done over the weekend, how were Americans responding to this anthrax threat?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I'd say with impressive equanimity, at least so far.
What we've found was a lot of concern, but nothing like panic. For example, just one in five believe that they or someone in their family could be exposed in anthrax. Four in five don't believe that that is likely. In fact, 60 percent of Americans say the news media have overreacted to the anthrax threat. Do the American people believe they themselves have overreacted? Well, they're split-- maybe they have, they're not sure.
Did Congress overreact last week when it shut down? Just 29 percent say it did. Most say no -- there was evidence of contamination and it was rational to be cautious.
So even though most Americans do believe this is the beginning of a sustained terrorist campaign, and most Americans believe Osama bin Laden is behind, at least, some of the anthrax attacks, people have been behaving quite rationally.
WOODRUFF: And it will be interesting to see if any of that changes with today's news about four individuals in Washington.
SCHNEIDER: That's right.
WOODRUFF: I stole your word, I think -- defiant optimism -- how would you describe the mood in the country right now?
SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, in polls people always have an inclination to give what they think is the correct answer. And right now, the correct answer is to be upbeat.
Take a look at these results from the "Newsweek" poll taken late last week. Seventy-one percent are satisfied that the government is releasing enough reliable information about recent anthrax cases. Seventy-one percent say they are optimistic about the future of the economy.
You know, last week, Gallup couldn't even get a majority of Americans to say that the nation's economy is in a recession. Sixty- seven percent are confident that state and local governments are prepared to deal with a terrorist attack using chemical or biological weapons. And a majority of Americans endorses the view that life in the U.S. will not just return to normal -- things will actually improve.
The public is rallying, not just around the flag, but around President Bush, around the government, around the economy, around everything that symbolizes America.
WOODRUFF: Finally, Bill, what would it take to shake all that?
SCHNEIDER: Well, suppose there are more terrorist attacks, Americans might come to believe that government really can't protect them. And that mood I described of defiant optimism might evaporate.
But I wouldn't bet on it, because Americans know that that's exactly what the terrorists are trying to accomplish. They're trying to spread fear and hysteria. And there is no evidence in any of the numbers that I just reviewed that the enemy is succeeding.
You know, as -- to paraphrase James Bond, Americans certainly have been shaken but they have also been stirred.
WOODRUFF: All right. Bill Schneider, thanks you very much. I always learn something.
And that is a good point, to move to a scene that took place today in Lower Manhattan. It was all in a day's work for the people carrying out an unimaginable task, and that is removing human remains from what is left of the World Trade Center. As you can see here, this is the picture about -- there have been about a dozen bodies removed, recovered over the last two days. This is the scene as rescue, police and other workers escorted one of the souls of September the 11th.
We'll be back in just a moment.
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WOODRUFF: They tell me it is no accident that the Baby Boom got started during World War II. Some of us are here as a result of that, in fact.
There's a reason we cry when Rick tells Ilsa to get on that plane out of Casablanca -- wartime Casablanca. Earthshaking moments in history have a way of rocking the lives of people who live through them.
Just consider how many times lately you've heard somebody say, you know, it really makes you think. Well, people have been doing a lot of that lately. They're thinking about life, and they're thinking about love. Here's CNN's Beth Nissen.
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BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There are no studies, no statistics to prove it, but there seems to have been a profound shift in relationships since September 11.
ELISE GOLDWEBBER, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: People took a very, very big look at their lives and decided they only want to be somewhere they really, really want to be or in a relationship that they really, really want to be in.
NISSEN: The terrorist attacks put so many relationships in high relief. People scrambled to call those they loved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you, bye.
NISSEN: Sometimes didn't realize who they truly loved until they knew they had to hear that person's voice. They took to heart the wrenching stories of people trapped in the Twin Towers making a last call to say, I love you.
GOLDWEBBER: I think if you didn't feel that way and were in a relationship, you no longer wanted to be there.
NISSEN: Several family law attorneys in New York, report an increase in people seeking a divorce.
GOLDWEBBER: Since September 11 we have gotten an average of four, five call a day for new consultations and that's unusual.
NISSEN: Yet for other couples the awful events of September 11 made them realize how precious their relationships were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since September 11, I believe we have gotten a lot closer. I can say that. I can safely say that, speak for myself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Same here.
NISSEN: In the face of so many new fears, fear of commitment faded for many. Couples who had been dating for a year or so suddenly got engaged. Engaged couples sped up wedding plans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are saving money a lot faster now so we can hurry up and get married.
NISSEN (on camera): Because of this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It is like we are meant to be, and I want to make sure we are going to be there.
NISSEN (voice-over): New York City officials report increases in new marriage licenses. Scores of couples have asked the city's mayor Rudy Giuliani to marry them.
MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: As the mayor of the city of New York, I now pronounce you husband and wife.
NISSEN: Many in this metropolis of solo souls are newly certain they don't want to go through these uncertain times alone. Dating services report a sharp increase in people looking for love. More people are placing personal ads seeking a mate, seeking comfort.
This ad in "New York" magazine reads, "Would that you had been with me during the past three weeks so that we could have held each other close all night."
Many New York City restaurants say there is new demand for tables for two.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 tables for two.
NISSEN: Managers at the River Cafe say that since September 11 tables have been full of first-date couples, couples celebrating their 20th anniversary and couples who might celebrate their first anniversary next year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know, that fear and terror just makes you want to think about family and love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because it makes you think of what is dear to you, and what you want out of life.
NISSEN: Life that, as everyone has been painfully reminded, is so very short.
Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WOODRUFF: Human connections always matter, and this is just a real tough way to be reminded of that. We'll update you in just a moment on the latest developments.
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