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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
The Anthrax Investigation
Aired October 23, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. Here is a straight lead -- we don't do many straight leads. But this is the way the big time newspapers would write it: The President of the United States, George W. Bush, had to say today -- quote -- "I don't have anthrax." And I thought some of the questions asked of President Clinton were a little strange.
Six weeks into this attack on the United States, the president had to say that, because late today it was learned a machine that opens mail at the White House, or for the White House, was contaminated. There are theories about how that happened, some less scary than others. We'll spend a fair amount of our time on that tonight.
This is all horrible, and six weeks into it there is no reason, not a one, to suggest it has completely unfolded yet.
The president's spokesman said today that he was confident that no anthrax got into the White House proper, but he didn't exactly explain why he was so confident. Any letters to the White House would've come through the Brentwood facility in Washington, and we know anthrax was there. It was declared a crime scene today. Two postal workers there died from inhalation anthrax, before anyone had any idea they had it.
And from New Jersey today, we also learned of a suspected case of inhalation anthrax. The first for that state. Health officials there more urgent than ever, telling Trenton area postal workers, "absolutely," get examined immediately.
So a lot tonight, again, on anthrax. And there are some interesting twists in all of this. We'll also look at issues of war and a free press, and we'll take a trip to Mars. Not a bad place to be.
We'll begin with a check around the country and around the world, starting at the White House and our senior White House correspondent, John King.
John, the headline.
JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president back at the White House after dinner out on the town tonight. He says he'll feel safe when he comes to work tomorrow, but as you noted, the president himself today having to say, "I don't have anthrax."
The government, meanwhile, disputing any accounts today that they have mishandled or reacted badly in those early anthrax cases, especially at that postal facility you just mentioned. Yet on the other hand, the government says from now on out, it will do things very differently.
BROWN: John, back with you shortly.
Now to New Jersey, where more disturbing developments unfolded today. Gary Tuchman is there. Gary, the headline.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, here in New Jersey we already had two cases of skin anthrax, and one suspected case of skin anthrax. But now for the first time since this all began, a suspected case of inhalation anthrax. And for many of the postal workers in this state, this news has changed their outlooks a great deal -- Aaron.
BROWN: Gary, on the investigation now, who is sending the anthrax? Are they any closer? Susan Candiotti working on the investigative side. Susan, the headline from your end tonight.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.
Investigators expanding their search in New Jersey, but leads still going nowhere there. And in Washington, the Justice Department again turning to the public for help, releasing copies of three anthrax letters. You'll see them and read them tonight.
BROWN: Susan, thank you.
And now the headline from that other war, the one going on in Afghanistan. Nic Robertson is there tonight in Islamabad. Nic, the headline from you?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, CNN staff in Kandahar are taken to a hospital and shown more civilian bodies. Survivors of what they say was an attack on a village close to the city of Kandahar. Taliban also accusing the United States of using chemical weapons. And the United Nations here confirming a Taliban military hospital hit, just outside the city of Herat, in Afghanistan -- Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, back with you. Back with all of you in a few moments.
We begin at the White House. This afternoon, early in the afternoon, the president's spokesman stood at the podium and promised that if anthrax showed up at the White House, reporters would be told. Three hours later Ari Fleischer delivered as promised. Not in the White House itself, actually, but close enough. Back door.
This is one of those moments where your imagination could easily run wild. Ours won't. We'll start with what we know, and senior White House correspondent John King again -- John. KING: What we know, Aaron, is officials are saying they are confident, completely confident, that there is no anthrax in the White House itself, or within the closed compound of the White House complex.
Still, as you noted, after Ari Fleischer made that dramatic announcement today, small traces of anthrax detected at the mail facility that handles White House mail, reporters got a chance to walk into the president and ask him about it. Another reminder people are asking very different questions around here these days.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't have anthrax.
QUESTION: So you have been tested, sir?
BUSH: I don't have it.
KING (voice-over): The president was asked because of another anthrax scare, this one at a military installation that screens all mail to the White House. Only a trace amount was detected, on a piece of machinery. No workers have complained of symptoms, but the White House says it is taking precautionary measures.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: All employees at the site are being swabbed and tested. Mail room employees at the White House will also be swabbed and tested. Environmental sampling throughout the White House has all shown negative.
KING: All White House mail is opened at the facility, and sources tell CNN no suspicious letters were found. So investigators suspect mail became contaminated at its prior stop, the Brentwood postal facility that processed the anthrax letter sent to Senate majority leader, Tom Daschle.
Workers there were not immediately tested or treated, because health officials did not think it possible that anthrax could seep from a sealed envelope.
JEFFREY KOPLAN, CDC DIRECTOR: We don't know whether that is out of you know, open flaps in the envelopes, whether it potentially can pass through the envelope, don't know.
KING: But two workers at the facility are dead, and at least two more diagnosed with inhalation anthrax. And the administration says it will no longer wait.
TOMMY THOMPSON, HHS SECRETARY: If we even remotely suspect that an anthrax-tainted letter may have passed through a facility, we're going to get there, test the facility and make the appropriate treatment available to those who may have been exposed.
KING: The postal services has more than 27,000 facilities across the country. Testing every one is not viewed as feasible. But sources tell CNN the government is likely to soon order initial tests at a random sampling nationwide.
Precautions already being taken include: offering gloves to postal workers, using vacuums instead of blowers to clean postal equipment, and rushing to buy scanners that irradiate mail and kills anthrax and other bacteria.
All White House mail already is run through such scanners, and officials say they are confident no anthrax can make it through the mail and into the building where the president lives and works.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Now, some postal workers see a double standard in how quickly the government acts when the anthrax scares are at facilities associated with the White House or the Congress. The administration insists that is not the case, but it also says it does know more now about the risks, and will act more quickly in the future -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, we're going to deal with that double standard question in a bit. Let me ask you one quick one on the president. The way I heard the question was, have you been tested for anthrax? And he said, "I don't have anthrax." Do we assume, therefore, he has been tested?
KING: We assume, and indeed we are told by some senior officials behind the scene that he has been tested, as have a number of officials here in the government. They do not want to answer that question publicly, just like they don't want to answer, how are they confident the mail doesn't have anthrax in it? We know some things from sources. They say to answer those questions, though, would undermine the security precautions under way here at the White House and at other government facilities.
Aaron: It's a remarkable day, John. Thank you. Senior White House correspondent John King tonight.
It is safe to say that the government is promising to do everything it can to prevent another Brentwood, that postal facility in Washington. There is among postal workers at that facility, tremendous anxiety, considerable anger, too. A feeling that their bosses and the government didn't take the threat to them as seriously as it took the threat on Congress, for example, or perhaps, the media.
And, they might point out, they are the ones, after all, who are dying these days. As we said, we got confirmation of two deaths of postal employees from inhalation anthrax. One of their coworkers today tried to remember a time when dogs were their biggest threat to the carriers.
Here's CNN's Rea Blakey.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REA BLAKEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The dramatic shift in how health officials are approaching the anthrax problem in Washington came after word that anthrax had killed two workers at the Brentwood mail facility.
MAYOR ANTHONY WILLIAMS, WASHINGTON: We now know that the two deaths that were reported to you, and that you know about, now are confirmed cases of inhalation anthrax.
BLAKEY: Two other Brentwood postal workers, hospitalized in Virginia with inhalation anthrax, remain in serious condition. Even as a Maryland hospital announced it was closely watching two other Brentwood workers who came in overnight, with possible inhalation anthrax.
MARK SNYDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST: They had symptoms consistent with the symptoms of anthrax. As you know, the symptoms of anthrax are typically fever, respiratory symptoms, chest tightness, things like that.
BLAKEY: As testing continued for the hundreds of workers at the Brentwood facility, public health officials called for all nearly 3,000 postal workers in Washington to start antibiotic therapy, because almost all mail to local post offices goes through Brentwood.
DEBORAH WILLHITE, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE: Please go to D.C. General Hospital, to get your treatment of Cipro.
BLAKEY: Many postal workers are upset they didn't get the same quick attention that others in Washington did.
KAREN HAMM, POSTAL EMPLOYEE: You tested Congress and you say that was enough. Then two people at Brentwood have to die. Now you test Brentwood, and you tell the other facilities, "that's enough." What are you waiting for, one of us to die before you swab one of us?
BLAKEY: Public health officials have an explanation. They are learning as they go.
WILLIAMS: I think all of us can stand today and say that in light of the information we have today, in retrospect we should have done a number of things earlier.
BLAKEY: Results of the environmental testing on the Brentwood facility were also released Tuesday, confirming what many had already assumed. It tested positive for anthrax.
Rea Blakey, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And then there is New Jersey. Remember Trenton, the postmarks on the envelopes? The first suspected case of inhalation anthrax has been identified there now. And the anger felt by the workers in Washington is being shared by their colleagues, some of them, in New Jersey as well.
Gary Tuchman joins us again from Trenton -- Gary?
TUCHMAN: Well, Aaron, there is anger here, but also equal helpings of confusion and concern. A woman who handles mail in this postal facility in central New Jersey is in the hospital right now. And there are some postal employees here wondering if they could be next.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Hundreds of New Jersey post office employees, in line at a hospital, meeting with a doctor, and then getting a supply of the antibiotic Cipro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'm pretty scared right now. And I'm just going to follow the guidelines they gave us.
TUCHMAN: More than one-thousand New Jersey postal employees are being told to take 10 days worth of Cipro, following the announcement that a woman who works in this postal sorting facility in Hamilton Township, New Jersey, is suspected of having the most dangerous form of anthrax, inhalation anthrax.
DR. EDDY BRESNITZ, NEW JERSEY HEALTH DEPARTMENT: She's been on those for five days now. Her condition right now is serious but stable. She's holding her own. Her temperature has improved.
TUCHMAN: Her preliminary diagnosis has frightened and angered many of her colleagues. many of them feeling people on Capital Hill were considered a higher priority than postal workers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's pretty scary. I just can't believe what's going on. I can't believe the post office waited so long to have us come get checked out, when people in Washington, thousands of people in Washington, are already being tested, right off the bat.
TUCHMAN: In New York City, post office management announced thousands of doses of Cipro will be made available to postal workers who might have had contact with anthrax-laced mail. But union officials say that's not enough.
LOUIS NIKOLAIDIS, POSTAL UNION ATTORNEY: We think they should be doing more. They should have a plan if there's positive tests, and we want to make sure that the No. 1 priority is worker health and safety.
TUCHMAN: Most workers at the affected post offices continue to do their work. This New Jersey carrier is walking the same route as a colleague who has been diagnosed with skin anthrax.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Its my job, I have to do it. I mean, if something happens -- we've got to put the mail out. You can't stop the mail.
TUCHMAN: Outside the temporarily-closed Hamilton Township facility, tents have been set up for employees to continue to work. Some of them use gloves, others don't. Some have started their treatments of Cipro, others are about to. Some are very nervous, but others remain stoic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little bit of nervousness but, you know, everything is kind of -- I mean, after the World Trade Center, this is really nothing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN: Their approaches are very different. However, all of these postal employees' lives have changed a great deal, as they are reminded when they take their Cipro, as they're reminded when they work in a tent, and as they're reminded when they try to comfort their children.
And, Aaron, we want to mention to you. We've been told by a district manager here with the post office, that all post offices across the United States will have their flags at half-staff beginning tomorrow, in memory of the two men in Washington who died -- Aaron.
BROWN: Gary, thank you. Gary Tuchman in Trenton, New Jersey tonight.
What has medical investigators most concerned is that so many of these people are getting sick without ever opening an envelope. Again, none of the possible answers to this are very comforting. It's just something that's happening, and the investigation is trying to figure it out, or the investigators are trying to figure out, how it is happening. So is CNN's Susan Candiotti -- Susan.
CANDIOTTI: Hello, Aaron, And before we get to that, something new has come up, just since we last spoke with you. A possible new development -- and we caution, it is a possible new development. This coming from the FBI in Baltimore. It seems that postal workers at a facility called the Shady Grove mail postal center in Gaithersburg, Maryland, found this day a letter addressed to Senator Majority Leader Tom Daschle.
Now, according to the FBI, it has some similarities and some differences to previous letters, but the FBI would not describe it any further. They also say, is it a hoax or is it the real thing? They don't know yet.
So, in the meantime, trying to track down who is sending anthrax as infection cases rise, investigators expanding the search area in New Jersey. And in Washington, authorities scratching their heads about how spores apparently leaped out of mail.
Tonight the Justice Department again, asking the public for help, showing you what some of those infected letters look like.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Investigators admit they have a big problem on their hands: figuring out how anthrax, finely ground to hang in the air, may have seeped out of mail and into the lungs of postal workers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's very disturbing about this to all of us is that it's -- apparently closed envelopes can potentially transmit as well. And we don't know whether that is out of, you know, open flaps in the envelope, whether it's potentially can pass through the envelope.
CANDIOTTI: The Justice Department now releasing copies of three anthrax letters, all postmarked Trenton, New Jersey. Two sent to NBC's Tom Brokaw and the "New York Post" are identical, are in the same handwriting, contain the same threatening message, and are labeled 9-11, the day of the attacks, although postmarked one week later.
They read: "This is next. Take penicillin now. Death to America. Death to Israel. Allah is great."
The letter to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, mailed about three weeks later, is similar. "You cannot stop us. We have this anthrax. You die now. Are you afraid? Death to America. Death to Israel. Allah is great."
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: All of these are, we hope, will alert citizens and others to a kind of thing to look for, and may provide us with indications about other items sent through the mail, that would similarly have provided a basis for the risks and the problems we have endured.
CANDIOTTI: But the FBI, not yet able to finger Al Qaeda or domestic terrorists.
TIM CARUSO, FBI: We do not have information at this point, that would make evidentiary links on to Osama bin Laden or Al Qaeda.
CANDIOTTI: In New Jersey, where those letters were processed, investigators expanding their search, but leads still going nowhere. Authorities spreading out to a neighboring county, where at last one of the letters may have originated. The FBI, waiting for anthrax tests on an infected mail carrier's backpack, truck, and three blue mailboxes along her route. She did not, however, retrieve mail from them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: In New Jersey, leads have not dried up. They are just not leading anywhere, not yet. In New York, in Washington, if Florida, the stories mostly the same. The big questions cannot yet be answered. Who is behind it, where did they get it, and can it be stopped before anyone else is infected? Aaron.
BROWN: Good questions, all. Take a whack at this one. This letter is Baltimore, you mentioned. You said the handwriting was similar -- I think that's what we meant. Was there something in it? Was there a powder in it? Is there something beyond the handwriting here?
CANDIOTTI: The FBI is being very closed-mouthed about this. Now, in terms of what the similarities were, and what the differences were, we cannot say, because the FBI is not telling us. So we don't know if it has to do with the handwriting, the content, the postmark. We don't know yet, Aaron. BROWN: All right. We continue to be reporters on this. That's how we do it. Susan, thank you. That's quick work you're turning around.
Right now, again, thousands of Washington postal workers are on Cipro or they're waiting for results. There is enormous anxiety among postal carriers in Washington and in New Jersey, and we suspect, around the country as well.
James McGee is hearing from a lot of those people who are concerned. That's part of his job. He's president of the National Alliance of Postal and Federal Employees, and he joins us, Mr. McGee does, from Washington.
Good evening, sir.
JAMES MCGEE, NATIONAL ALLIANCE OF POSTAL EMPLOYEES: Good evening.
BROWN: How many of your postal workers are on Cipro tonight, do you know?
MCGEE: I would imagine, here in the Washington area, somewhere around 700 to 800.
BROWN: That's it?
MCGEE: That's it, yes.
BROWN: So a number I saw earlier that said 10,000 workers around the country were on Cipro is not even close to correct, is that right?
MCGEE: Well, I'm not sure of how many people are on Cipro, over how many installations has anthrax manifested itself. I would think now, that we are all facing a new dynamic, a new threat. Something that is unprecedented. We are all having to come up to speed.
I know people are angry and upset, and they should be. But I think we all have to step back. All come up to speed and do that which is prudent. And I think we'll all come out of this situation a lot better.
BROWN: Hopefully, you're correct on that.
But the situation is not so new that it hasn't been out there for some days, now. A lot of postal workers believe, fairly or not, that when it was the employees of the Congress of the United States, the government was aggressive in how it pursued the anthrax threat. And when it was postal employees at Brentwood, they said, you know what, go to work. We'll hold a press conference, everything will be fine.
MCGEE: Yes, I will agree.
BROWN: You would agree that they're correct?
MCGEE: No, that urgency should have been displayed for all citizens of the United States, wherever anthrax presents itself. This is not unusual. The body politic has treated federal employees and the public servants as fodder from time to time. And I think this situation is now pointing out that the federal work force is important. It is vitally important to the security of this country. And those who are in charge should act accordingly.
BROWN: Mr. Mcgee, I don't mean to be at all melodramatic here, but this is not that public servants didn't get an appropriate pay raise. This is that public servants might have been put in a position where they are going to die. Are you not outraged, if you believe the government did not act with appropriate urgency, are you not outraged by that?
MCGEE: I would being outraged if, in fact, that was the case. However, September the 11th changed everything in this country dramatically. The unthinkable has become the thinkable. We are catching up, and we've got to come up to speed. What I do think is that the government, the postmaster general, Governor Ridge, are moving with due speed to be able to answer the challenges that are before us.
BROWN: Mr. McGee, thank you for joining us. We appreciate your time tonight.
MCGEE: Thank you for having me.
BROWN: Thank you, sir. President of the National Alliance of Postal and Federal Employees.
If you're looking for easy answers out of this anthrax mess, and it is that, you'll not get them from our next guest. Journalist Andrew Sullivan joins us on why the United States needs to act. We continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There are some journalists who make it their job to give us a hard-boiled read on a situation in tougher terms than almost anyone else. Andrew Sullivan is certainly among them. The former "New Republic" editor wrote a recent article titled "The Biological Rubicon: Dare We Believe the Obvious?"
His message: the anthrax attack is almost certainly the work of enemies overseas, and we're in for far worse if we don't retaliate quickly. Mr. Sullivan joins us from Washington tonight. Andrew, it's nice to see you. Thank you.
ANDREW SULLIVAN, "THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE": Thank you for having me.
BROWN: Why are you so sure, by the way, this comes from overseas?
SULLIVAN: No, we can't be completely sure. But it must be an absolute probability. And given the context of these events, given the messages in these letters, it seems pretty consistent that it is either coming from aboard directly, or from people who are in this country acting on orders from abroad. I think that's not a crazy thought at this point.
BROWN: No, I don't think it's a crazy thought at all. It seems like a reasonable place to put your money, if you were making bets.
So what is it the government ought to do, that it is not now doing? It is, after all, bombing the daylights out of Afghanistan every day.
SULLIVAN: Well, I think what it has to do first of all, and what we all have to do, is acknowledge what's in front of us. We don't want to do that, because it is unthinkable -- just as we were amazed when those planes when into the World Trade Center.
Biological warfare has been launched upon the United States. We never thought this could happen. It is happening, and we have to acknowledge that this is a huge difference in the kind of warfare that we've been confronting. I mean, historically, we have said that a biological attack upon our citizens would make it possible, not probably, but possible, for to us to retaliate with nuclear weapons. That's obviously a big stretch right now.
But what the terrorists are clearly doing, whoever they are, is starting piecemeal, little bit by little bit. So we sort of don't recognize, because no one has been -- really, no one in great proportion has been killed, only a handful of people. But they have taken us one step further.
They have normalized the use of biological weapons, and that is a huge event. And the president has to tell us what that means. We have to understand what we're up against. Maybe this is the end -- I hope it is. But maybe it's just the beginning. Maybe more is coming. And we have played defense all along. We have to start taking initiative back to them.
BROWN: Andrew, I have about a minute here. Are we sure we know who the "them" are, and are you sure that the government has stomach to wage the kind of effort you think is necessary.
SULLIVAN: Well, part of problem is, we don't know. And that's their trick. They're trying to paralyze us with fear and indecision, and make us unable to respond. But we have to somehow wiggle out of that trap and take the war to them, as the president pledged not so long ago.
Quite what that means, I don't know. I'm not in charge, and neither are you, of all the information about this. But this is fin anthrax. It's almost certainly going to be related to some form of anthrax from the old Soviet Union through Iraq, or wherever. And if and when we find that out, we have to fight back. We have to retaliate with much more force than we are now doing, in a separate act than simply the conventional warfare in Afghanistan.
BROWN: Andrew, it's good to talk to you again. Andrew Sullivan joins us. I hope you'll come back with us again, soon. It's nice to see you.
SULLIVAN: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you.
Coming up in a few minutes, by the way, what could have been done in Washington, D.C. We'll talk with the mayor of Washington, Tony Williams.
Up next, though, the latest on what we're hearing from the front, From Afghanistan, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One of the reasons the anthrax story is getting so much time, just one of the reasons, is that it's so hard to clearly report on the war itself. We're not whining, here, exactly. It's just the reality of this war. And so the best reporting we can do suggests that the Northern Alliance, the anti-Taliban forces, are getting some help now from the U.S. air war.
We are more certain that, as is always the case in war, civilians are dying along with soldiers. For more on both aspects of the story, we go back to CNN's Nic Robertson in Islamabad this morning.
ROBERTSON: Aaron, indeed, those clarifications, very accurate. Our staff in Kandahar -- who are not able to film military facilities that have been targeted, but who are given full reign by the Taliban to film civilian deaths and civilian destruction -- were taken to a hospital yesterday and showed bodies.
Now, the bodies they saw they say were burned. Some had body parts missing. One man in hospital was being treated by a doctor for bullet wounds. What survivors and relative of the dead say is that a village 62 kilometers northeast of Kandahar was targeted. They say it was targeted by bombs, by AC-130s.
They say that they could -- residents say they are survivors, that they could hear helicopters and that there was sustained small arms gunfire through the night. And our staff say that they were told some 93 people killed and 20 injured. They didn't see that many bodies, only a small handful of bodies in the hospital inside Kandahar.
Now, the Taliban in their daily press conference accused the United States on Tuesday of using chemical weapons. On Monday, they said that the United States had hit a United -- had hit a civilian hospital in the city -- in the western city of Herat. They said that that had killed 100 people, civilians, doctors, nurses.
The United Nations, though, who still have some local staff in Afghanistan, who still have somewhat of an independent view of what is going on inside the country, clarified that on Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) STEPHANIE BUNKER, U.N. SPOKESWOMAN FOR AFGHANISTAN: Our information, which we received late this afternoon, is that a hospital in Herat was hit and it was reportedly destroyed. It was a military hospital in a military compound on the eastern outskirts of city. The numbers of casualties are not known. That's all the information we have on that for this time.
QUESTION: You have no idea how many...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: Tuesday, the Pakistani government clamped down hard on protesters in a city in Pakistan, Jacobabad. That city host to about 600 United States servicemen, who are operating from an air base there in support of the operations inside Afghanistan. The police and army there say they arrested dozens of people. This party -- the political party, the JI, one of the radical Islamic parties here claim 1,000 or so of their protesters, demonstrators and supporters have been arrested in the last few days. But the police cracking down hard, sealing the city off and not allowing a big demonstration. Certainly not allowing it to get near that air base, Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson in Islamabad. It's Wednesday morning there. We will talk again tomorrow. Thank you and we will continue in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It would take a good part of your day to get through all the critical articles in today's "Washington Post." But one sums it up pretty well: "How to Botch a Crisis." Howard Kurtz writes, "You hate to start pointing fingers in the midst of tragedy, but what on Earth were these people thinking?"
This of course in reference to how the anthrax case has been handled in Washington. Joining us now, the mayor of Washington, D.C., Mayor Anthony Williams.
Mayor, I know these are long days for you. We appreciate you joining us. So what were you thinking? In retrospect I suppose it's easy to say that all the right steps weren't taken. Did you not have the information you needed?
MAYOR ANTHONY WILLIAMS (D), WASHINGTON, D.C.: Well, the easy thing for me to say is that you are talking about the Centers for Disease Control, which is a federal agency. The U.S. Postal Service, which is a federal facility over which I have no jurisdiction -- and to say that federal officials are making these decisions.
But that's not how I operate. How I operate is that we have to work together on this to see that our employees are taken of, to see that our citizens are taken care of. And that it's easier to sit here today and say, "We should have done this or we should have done that." It's harder to say what would you do at the time.
The CDC was acting as the fount of information and advice on this. They were acting on the best science and experience that they had at time. On that basis, they were looking for confirmation before they did treatment and testing. Since that time, we've got a lot of new information. Since that time we have learned a lot about inhalational anthrax that we didn't know before. And certainly, what we know now, we are much more aggressive in testing and treatment.
BROWN: You went to the Brentwood facility. There was a press conference there, the point of which, I gather, was to essentially calm people down, say everything was OK. Who told you it was safe to go there?
WILLIAMS: Well, I actually didn't go to the Brentwood facility. I was told not to go. I actually went to the Brookland and Congress Heights sub -- satellite facilities. These are mail processing areas that are fed by the Brentwood plant.
My mother and I went there, and in so doing, became part of this wider perimeter that was -- perimeter for treatment that was established yesterday.
BROWN: In any case, I think the point is, who was saying, "Look, this is safe?" Was it the CDC saying that?
WILLIAMS: Basically, people were looking to the CDC for advice as this unfolded. And again, I'm not their spokesperson. I'm not here to defend them. I think one of tragedies here is you have public servants at the post office.
The are uniform personnel, the line of duty, two of whom have died, and my heart goes out to them. And now we are finger-pointing at another group of public servants who are doing their damn best, and unfortunately, we're looking back saying, "They've made this mistake, made that mistake."
It's a tragic situation, because I think the terrorists are winning. The people who actually sent this stuff, you know, are now winning another victory while we're pointing fingers at one another. I really believe that.
BROWN: I -- that's fair point to make. Let's look forward and not back for a bit. Are you confident now that the officials you are dealing with -- and you are dealing with a range of officials from district to federal here -- have a handle on this, that they comfortably can make decisions they have to make?
WILLIAM: I think that a couple things have to have happen, and I believe that they are happening. One, that people recognize that that situation is evolving and it's changing as we speak. And we have got to be -- we've got to be open and accessible to people, real time and open about that situation.
People, I think, will understand if we tell them what we don't know. And I think that people are more willing to do that. I think that's a good thing.
I think, secondly, being out front with what precautions, what preparations are being taken to ensure that mail is safe, to ensure people are safe. And again, as we always do -- and I know you are sick of politicians and public officials saying this -- but really urging people to go back about their business and about their regular lives so that our men and women who are over there fighting in Afghanistan are not fighting for a hollow victory. They fighting to preserve our way of life over there.
BROWN: Again, I think that's a fair point. And I again appreciate --I know how long the day has been for you. Thanks for spending some time with us tonight. Anthony Williams, the Mayor of Washington, a city with real issues tonight.
Still ahead: The military and the media. Are you getting the right picture? Are you getting an appropriate picture of the war? We'll take a look at that in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: These are tough times, and it may seem a bit whiny to complain that the press is not getting a whole lot of help in covering the war, the war overseas. The Pentagon has learned a thing or two over the years, and one of the things it's learned is to control information as much as it can. They do it with a smile, but they do it just the same. We can debate the wisdom of that -- and we will in a moment -- but first a background report from CNN's Bruce Morton.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE MORTON, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. troops in Afghanistan. Government video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next, you'll see troops exiting the C-130 aircraft and jumping onto their objective.
MORTON: Yes, but it is edited, a Pentagon handout. How accurate a picture does it paint?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: There's really no way for us to know, because there are no reporters talking to these troops even after the mission is completed.
DAVID MARTIN, CBS PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: We learned something from that video. But of course it took al Jazeera to tell us that one helicopter had run into a problem there.
MORTON: The Qatar-based al Jazeera agency showed these pictures, landing gear from a Chinook helicopter.
MCINTYRE: When we asked them to explain these landing gear, they simply had no explanation.
MORTON: Later, Pentagon spokesmen explained the helicopter had clipped a building and lost some of its landing gear on the way in.
The war between Pentagon and press goes way back. This time, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has complained of leaks -- though later conceding American lives were not put at risk by them -- and has agreed to daily briefings, though he doesn't like them.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It's not clear to me that it's necessary or even desirable, but I've acquiesced in that and we will be available.
MORTON: But how much will they say?
MARTIN: We're getting less factual information now than we got during the Gulf War.
MORTON: It is much smaller scale, and much of it is secret. Most reporters agree they can't go along on these commando missions. But could they go part way?
MARTIN: Give news organizations greater access to these special operations. Not go on the entire mission, but certainly be there for the launch and the recovery.
MORTON: And most reporters want more than just a briefing, a handout -- even if it's delayed.
MCINTYRE: There does need to be an eventual accounting, and without news reporters somewhere in the process, that can't take place. Then all we ever get is the official version of events.
MORTON: The military sees a much more limited role for the press.
MARTIN: Controlled access. Limited, controlled access. So that they can -- they, the Pentagon, can tell the story on their terms. And I think that's pretty much what we're getting.
MORTON: Polls show that in this war, voters think they're getting enough information, that the government withholding information is not a problem, but that reporters reporting too much information might be.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We're joined in Washington tonight: Vernon Loeb, who covers the Pentagon for "The Washington Post." The secretary might think he covers it a bit too well these days. And Jody Powell, who managed the media, or at least tried to, as press secretary here during the Carter administration. Good evening to both of you.
VERNON LOEB, "WASHINGTON POST": Thank you.
BROWN: Vernon, did you ever write a story that in retrospect, you looked at it and said, "You know, that might have endangered a life?"
LOEB: I don't recall any immediately. I know Secretary Rumsfeld thought that we wrote one last Friday that -- well, it may not have endangered lives, he had some problem with it. I can assure you, I think -- we're the "Washington Post" and I think most of the mainstream media as a whole are the last people who want to put American troops at risk or jeopardize lives in this war.
BROWN: Jody, I assume here that you will not disagree with that. I mean, you don't believe reporters are out there trying to endanger American lives. So what is it...
JODY POWELL, FORMER CARTER PRESS SECRETARY: No, I don't think so but I don't think that is their right to make that judgment. I think one of the things we have put into context here is that these are two valuable institutions in this democracy and they have different roles. And we ought to provide at least a modicum of honor and respect for both roles.
Journalists are seeking truth and information. This government -- this Pentagon, particularly now, is trying to win a war and protect lives. And there is a natural tension there. And it doesn't mean that everybody on one side is evil and everybody on the other side is good.
I have to say this, too, that there is a difference here. The people in uniform have in effect sworn an oath to die in our behalf at our command. In my view, that gives them just a tiny edge over the rest of us.
BROWN: Vernon, what do you wants to say to that?
LOEB: Well, I -- Jody is absolutely right. There certainly is a tension between both sides here, and I don't they we are at war. I mean, I do think war is a hard thing to cover. And I think the military on one hand and the media on the other are both feeling our ways right now.
This is an unconventional war. It's hard for the military to figure out how to get reporters close to it. But at the same time, I'm not sure the Pentagon's current strategy of extremely -- an extreme close hold on information is maybe the best strategy for them to follow either.
BROWN: Do you really think they want to get you close to it?
LOEB: I personally don't think they do. I think -- I think they say they are willing to explore ways to get us closer to it than we are now. I think it's unrealistic to think we are ever going to go on special forces raids, but last week -- or earlier this week, rather -- Secretary Rumsfeld said he might be willing to take reporters to the USS Kitty Hawk, which is the aircraft carrier where all the special forces are staging now so that they could be interviewed, I guess, before a raid and after a raid.
That would be one way to get us maybe halfway to the battlefield, or at least a lot closer than we are now.
BROWN: Jody, a few weeks back the secretary said that he had never lied to reporters in his previous term in government and that he no intention of lying this time around as defense secretary, either. Are there times when government ought to lie to reporters?
POWELL: I believe that there are. I mean, the truth is a tremendously important value. But I think there are times when other values have to take precedence. If you or I were faced with a situation in which our telling the truth would have endangered the lives of others, I think the moral choice is absolutely clear that we should sacrifice our credibility to protect the lives of others.
I recognize as I say that that puts government on a very slippery slope, in which the temptation -- not only the temptation, but reality is -- that that excuse is frequently used to -- not to protect the country or lives or national security but to protect somebody's backside.
But we need to recognize that is the slope that we are on, and it is really not much different from what journalists find themselves on, either. We all -- we all have to make compromises and we all have to accountable for how we draw their line -- that line. It's not helpful to pretend that it's all simple and -- and uncomplicated.
That -- if I had one message, it's what I started with. It's that I have great respect for my earlier years -- my earliest years as an adult were people in the military. And I grew to have tremendous affection and respect.
In later years I got to know reporters, and that's a somewhat more tumultuous relationship. But I have tremendous respect for them. They are both trying to do a job here. And we need to sort of give them a little leeway, and not assume that every time something goes wrong it's because somebody is trying to be malicious.
BROWN: Jody, I will stop you there. Vernon, thank you for joining us. I have feeling issues are only going to come back at us. I hope you will, too. Thank you very much.
POWELL: Thank you.
LOEB: Thank you.
BROWN: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're off the main story for a few minutes; the war, the anthrax, the rest, because a trip to Mars, frankly, is too cool resist. NASA is trying yet again. NASA has had some trouble getting these Mars explorers right where they want them. But they are trying again. John Zarrella in Miami tonight, and he is covering the NASA effort and he joins us now. John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that's right. It is certainly a world many, many millions of miles away from the issues that we face here. But it is a chance for redemption for NASA for its Mars program, or it's chance to run into utter disaster and failure again. Just about 15, 20 minutes ago, the main engines fired orbital insertion rockets for the spacecraft Odyssey. It is approaching Mars. We should know shortly after 11:00 p.m. Eastern time -- and there you see some of these latest images -- of whether Odyssey, featured there in this animation, actually made it to Mars.
It is again, as I said, a chance for redemption. Why? Because in 1999, the last two missions failed disastrously. Both the climate orbiter and the polar lander lost on their way to Mars. One burning up, the other one perhaps crash landing on the surface. We will probably never know exactly what happened to those two vehicles.
But again, now you can see live pictures. Mission Control, at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. They are waiting for the vehicle to emerge from the back side of Mars, dark side of Mars. Once it does at about 11:00 p.m. Eastern time, a signal will be sent back to earth.
And if they receive that signal, they will know that Odyssey -- named in honor of Arthur C. Clarke, "2001: A Space Odyssey," the great science fiction writer, they will know whether or not they have succeeded in putting a vehicle into orbit around Mars.
Only about one-third of all the space vehicles that ever gone -- from either the Soviet Union, from the United States -- have made it successfully. So it is a big, big mission. They spent a lot of time, revamped the entire Mars mission program.
A lander was suppose to accompany this vehicle as well. That was scrubbed because of the problems with the polar lander being lost. The next possible chance, Aaron, to see a lander on Mars would be in 2003.
Right now, though, they just want to get this one in orbit around the red planet. And hopefully looking for signs of water on Mars, which would be indications that perhaps at one time life did exist. Aaron.
BROWN: Well, in a month that hasn't been much fun, that's pretty cool. We all wish them well. John, thank you, nice job tonight.
ZARRELLA: Yes, we do.
BROWN: John Zarrella in Miami. We have more. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You've probably seen the public service announcements. They have been hard to miss. People of every color, ethnicity saying, "I am an American." It gives you that feeling that no matter where you come from, no matter what you look like, we are all in this fight together. Reality reality doesn't always cooperate, especially in one town where some citizens feel that those they thought were their neighbors on September 10th are now seeing them as suspects on September 11th and beyond. Here's CNN's Candy Crowley. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the story of a pretty typical American city, with everything from mini vans to mosques.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We would like to do anything to express our feeling that we are against terrorists or terrorism activities.
CROWLEY: It is a city like so many others these days, full of flags and sadness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife, the second day of the tragedy was driving. She wears a head scarf and she was called. Somebody rolled down their car window and said, "You bastard." I feel hurt. My family is targeted. My bigger family is losing thousands of people in the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. But I am not given the chance to prove that I am an American too.
CROWLEY: You can eat well and widely here: chicken and chickpeas, cupcakes and warm pita, in shops are full of American dreams.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We always heard about how this country was built on, you know, not to be discriminated against people because of their religion or their race or their ethnic background. But this is just talk. Now you feel when it comes to action, you feel that it wasn't true.
CROWLEY: Welcome to Dearborn Michigan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good afternoon, Access, can I help you?
CROWLEY: Where one in four adults is Arab-American.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are here, live here, and we work here and we pay taxes and everything. I mean, it shouldn't affect all of the people. If it is a bad person, it doesn't mean all are bad people. Like Oklahoma. I mean, they did it. Does that mean all American people are bad? No.
CROWLEY: And 58 percent of the children are Arab-American.
(on camera): Were all of you born here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was born in the States. American-born.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: American-made.
CROWLEY (voice-over): Jihad (ph), Kassem (ph) and Mustafa (ph) went to a resort area recently with a Boy Scout leader. Someone complained about suspicious behavior and the police pulled them over. Eventually, they were allowed to drive on. (on camera): Are all of you American-made boys, do you feel differently about America in any way? Has this made you feel differently?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just kind of rings a question in my head. Am I really an American or not? It is kind of hard to think about. Do I have the same rights as, like, an American-born, or do I have different rights because I'm Arabic?
CROWLEY (voice-over): The question rings not just in his head, but across the generations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My grandfather came here in 1896. I'm a veteran. My brothers are veterans, and yet I feel like I am not -- you know, I have not found my rightful place in America. When do I become an American?
CROWLEY: Dearborn is a pretty typical city, only here the sadness is twice as unbearable, and here, the flag is not so much about showing patriotism as proving it.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Dearborn, Michigan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We want to end this hour back where it all began, back at ground zero. Six weeks ago it all began.
Those of us who were with us this afternoon know that there was a scene that was for me, at least, tremendously moving. We have seen this a lot. They have recovered a body. And they have recovered a number of bodies over the last three days.
When this happens, the workers, the police, the fire, the construction workers, they line up, they salute. They show this extraordinary respect. Maybe they didn't pull a lot of people out of there alive after September 11th, but these are victories. And they are to be cherished. And they are.
And that's where this hour ends.
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