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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
The Anthrax Investigation
Aired October 24, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. One of our writers, Linda Keenan, observed today one of those things that is a potent reminder of how quickly we humans adapt. When word came today that another employee at the "New York Post," whose offices are not far from here, had the skin form of anthrax, nobody paid much attention. Believe me, a week ago we would have paid a lot of attention.
There would have been plenty of fear. In fact, there was plenty of fear around here when these things first started happening. But something has changed, and perhaps it is this: We've seen people with real reasons to be afraid these last few days. We've seen postal workers murdered with anthrax, others lying in hospitals tonight who may have inhaled it.
And we learned just a few minutes ago of another suspected case of inhaled anthrax in Washington. How strange has our world become that a case of skin anthrax becomes almost, not quite, but almost a sigh of relief? How much has the world changed?
The postmaster general said today the postal service would not close down. That he even address the possibility is unfathomable. President Bush today praised health officials for acting quickly, defending them, the kind of thing presidents do, at least in public. You can imagine it fell on deaf ears among many postal workers in Washington and New Jersey.
One comforting development for them and the rest of us: word that Ernesto Blanco has left the Florida hospital a survivor of inhalation anthrax. He contracted it at American Media in Boca Raton, along with coworker Robert Stevens, who died. Inhalation anthrax is usually deadly. Mr. Blanco proves, "usually" is not always.
We have a lot to do tonight. We'll talk with postal workers coping with their unimaginable stress, a mayor struggling to make Halloween safe and causing some controversy along the way. And we'll talk with Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson, on a deal struck today with Bayer, the pharmaceutical company, to buy more Cipro.
First, the headlines from around the globe. We start at the White House tonight. Our senior White House correspondent, John King. John, the headline. JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president was discussing all these anthrax cases today, and he said in his view America ways still under attack. And that deal, you are noting, the government stockpiling more of the anthrax antibiotic, Cipro. On the one hand, you might find that reassuring, the government acting to be prepared. On the other hand, some say it's quite disturbing, proof that the government thinks all this is going to go on for quite awhile.
BROWN: John, back to the White House in a bit.
What will make postal workers and customers feel more safe? Correspondent Gary Tuchman has been looking at that. Gary, the headline from where you are.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the U.S. Postal Service handles 680 million pieces of mail each year. Obviously, not every piece can be checked. But postal bosses say they're being more vigilant now, about checking suspicious mail. And before a piece of suspicious mail would come your way, you can expect a phone call from the post office -- Aaron.
BROWN: Gary -- and then there is the shooting war in Afghanistan. CNN's Sheila MacVicar on station tonight in Islamabad. It's early morning, so, Sheila, good morning to you.
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Aaron.
Well, it's apparently been another heavy night of bombardment over Afghanistan. CNN staff in Kandahar, our only very narrow window into what's happening in Afghanistan. Our independent window there tells us that they saw very heavy, sustained bombing air strikes there, just several hours ago -- Aaron.
BROWN: Sheila, back with you. Back with all of you in a few moments.
We begin tonight on a day the administration seemed to be playing defense. Every time we looked up, one administration official or another was trying to explain the hows and the whys of the government's response to the anthrax attack through the mail. Why that Brentwood postal facility in Washington, now infamous, stayed open too long. Why Cipro wasn't handed out until people were near death. Why so many postal workers feel their government treated them with less concern than members of the Congressional staff.
In short, the administration's answer today was simple: this is new, we're still learning. We won't make those mistakes again. It certainly didn't quiet the anger. We begin with CNN medical correspondent Rea Blakey.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REA BLAKEY, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No new cases of confirmed anthrax infection reported in Washington, but a growing number of people with suspicious symptoms, including the first case connected to the U.S. Senate: a member of the news media who had been in the building where the anthrax-laden letter to Senator Tom Daschle was opened.
MAYOR ANTHONY WILLIAMS, WASHINGTON: These are clinical illnesses, with some features that could suggest anthrax, but it is not an officially suspected case.
BLAKEY: Public health officials claim the growing numbers are actually a good sign that area doctors are alert to possible early signs of disease. All total in Washington: two have died from inhalation anthrax, two more remain hospitalized in serious condition with the disease. At least six are in are hospitals with suspicious symptoms and tests pending.
Health officials admit they underestimated the danger to postal workers, from even a sealed envelope containing anthrax.
DAVID SATCHER, SURGEON GENERAL: Clearly, we know now that the risk of exposure to an envelope passing through a post office is real. We didn't know that before.
BLAKEY: But it did little to soothe the growing bitterness among postal workers who feel they weren't properly protected.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now you're telling us the mail must go, rain, sleet, hail or snow. They said nothing about anthrax.
BLAKEY: The postal service said while there's no guarantee the nation's mail is safe, the chance of anthrax contamination is so small, it doesn't justify shutting down service.
JOHN POTTER, POSTMASTER GENERAL: Life is filled with risk, and you know, you could die crossing a street, you can die driving a car. And that's not to minimize what's going on here, because we did lose two of our own. But it's to suggest that, you know, you just don't shut the postal service down. You know, if you think about it, how would you ever start it up?
BLAKEY: To protect themselves, the postmaster general says Americans should wash their hands after handling their mail. And, a recommendation that even more people in Washington take Cipro. Companies that pick up mail in bulk from the Brentwood facility, where the deadly anthrax was found, have been told to have their mail handlers start the antibiotic.
Rea Blakey, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: You may remember, on this program a couple of weeks ago, New York Senator Charles Schumer saying the government should allow generic drug companies to produce Cipro. With that threat hanging, Bayer, the patent holder for the antibiotic, cut a deal with the federal government today: lots of Cipro, cut-rate prices.
Back to the White House and senior White House correspondent John King -- John.
KING: Aaron, at this hour we are often almost always the last ones here. But as I walked down the driveway just moments ago, the White House press secretary leaving, the HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson leaving. Homeland Secretary Director Tom Ridge, heading out the door. Why?
Another meeting to discuss the anthrax crisis, especially the criticism this administration is not speaking with one voice when it comes to that crisis. That, a topic of debate that will continue in the days ahead. But tonight they are celebrating that deal you just mentioned, the government striking a deal with the Bayer corporation to stockpile large amounts of the anthrax antibiotic, Cipro.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): The new deal clears the way for the government to dramatically expand its supply of the anthrax antibiotic Cipro, a stockpile the White House says is critical for the war on terrorism.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On September 11th this great land came under attack. And it's still under attack as we speak. Anybody who puts poison in mail is a terrorist. Anybody who tries to affect the lives our good citizens is evil.
KING: Suspicions, but still no evidence linking anthrax letters to Osama bin Laden or any international terrorist group.
BUSH: We've got thousands of FBI agents scouring information, asking questions, following up leads, all aimed to raise the risk of someone who would harm our citizens.
KING: The government currently has enough Cipro on hand to treat two million people for anthrax. The new deal with drug maker Bayer is aimed at buying enough to treat 10 million more, 100 million tablets for $95 million, meaning 95 cents a tablet, down from the $1.77 the government paid previously.
Two hundred more government workers were tested for anthrax exposure after trace amounts were found Tuesday at a remote site that screens all mail sent to the White House. None of the first 120 to get preliminary results tested positive. And sources tell CNN a new round of tests inside the White House complex turned up no evidence of anthrax.
Still, workers at the remote White House site and some other government mail rooms are getting Cipro as a precaution, all part of an evolving response the administration hopes will quiet criticism it was slow to understand the scope of the threat.
TOMMY THOMPSON, HHS SECRETARY: Remember, we have never had cases of anthrax attacks in the manner before. It is a new challenge that we're all facing as a country, and we need to do more.
KING: Administration officials say they have no choice but to assume there will be more anthrax attacks through the mail. (END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: And investigators say their work is being complicated by a rash of hoaxes and false alarms, 2,500 in the past three weeks, just involving anthrax. The FBI director making a point today, anyone who thinks this is funny won't think it's funny if they're caught -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, two quick ones. Just 95 cents a pill -- that's the price that the government's Cipro would cost. It's not the price that someone would pay if they went to their pharmacy, right?
KING: It is not. It's the price the government will get for a bulk purchase, a discount. And we should note: 95 cents for the first 100 million tablets. If the government deems it necessary to buy more, and let's hope it doesn't, 85 cents a tablet for the next 100 million. And if it went to a third round of 100 million, it would pay 75 cents a tablet.
BROWN: And, on this question of speaking with one voice, they seemed to find something last week with Tom Ridge being the voice. Have they settled this issue?
KING: Well, one of the problems is, Governor Ridge can't speak for every agency, because Tommy Thompson gets the first word on anthrax cases. He had to negotiate this deal with Bayer, so you can't tell that cabinet secretary: don't speak out. But they are trying to do a better job of coordinating.
One problem, they say, Governor Ridge just getting up to speed. He's only been on the job a little bit. No. 2, they say, just as when we covered military strikes, and we tried to find out did the U.S. military cause collateral damage, did it kill civilians -- early on when you get these reports, there is often conflicting information.
And they also say the science simply hadn't caught up. A week ago they did not think anthrax could seep out through a sealed envelope. Tonight they're still not sure. Maybe it can.
BROWN: John, thanks. Senior White House correspondent John King, always the last one to leave the White House.
It was 20 days ago when the Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson announced that first anthrax case. He said then it was "isolated." Now the government's buying 100 million pills, stockpiling an antibiotic we hadn't even heard of that night, 20 days ago.
Earlier this evening we talked with Secretary Thompson about the latest anthrax developments and the Cipro deal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Mr. Secretary, let's start with Cipro. Obviously, this was a somewhat complicated negotiation. Did you have to threaten Bayer with trying to bust their patent on Cipro? THOMPSON: No, I didn't have to threaten them. They knew that that was a possibility coming in. And we negotiated in good faith. And I think we came to a very equitable deal. We went down from $1.75 a pill to 95 cents a pill. And included in the contract is about -- oh, about one-third of the worth of the contract is the fact that Cipro and Bayer, who is the manufacturer of Cipro, will actually manage our pharmaceutical supply, and will keep turning it over every third year so we don't have buy new. So it's really a good deal for the American taxpayers.
BROWN: When -- just in what you just said, in the third year this -- it makes us all believe what I think the government now believes, is that whatever it is we are into now, we're going to be into for a long, long time to come.
THOMPSON: Well, Aaron, I think we have to assume that this is something that's going to go on for while. Hopefully, the terrorist attack in America will be short-lived, but we don't know that. And the individuals that -- or individual, whoever is doing this, is costing a lot of panic and a lot of problems in America.
And we're trying to get very well prepared for it. And that's why we're purchasing additional antibiotics, so that we can treat up to 12 million Americans, if in fact, we need to.
BROWN: Do you think that it's a fair criticism, to say that up until maybe even this week, that the government, the administration, erred on the side of trying to tamp down panic, as opposed to -- erred on the side of caution, as you described it today? That your concern was that this did not get out of hand in the country, that people started getting nuts?
THOMPSON: Well, we still want to make sure that Americans continue to lead their normal lives, and we think they will be able to respond, of course, to a bioterrorism attack, which we've proven that we can. And we have enough supplies and enough medical personnel to handle it. And we want Americans to feel comfortable with that.
But at the same time, as the president has indicated, we want people to be vigilant. These are individuals, or individual, that don't care much about American lives, and they are doing a criminal act. It's a terrorist attack by sending anthrax through the mail that's going to do bodily harm to an individual and hopefully, on their part, is going to murder somebody. So you have to be very vigilant in regards to this whole thing, Aaron.
BROWN: In all of this, going back to the 30th of September, you said right now the government can handle any contingency. Do you in fact believe that today the government can handle any contingency?
THOMPSON: I've said that, with the understanding that we were going to continue to improve, and we're doing that. We can respond, and that's a more appropriate word, and I think that's the word I used. We can respond if there is a bioterrorism attack.
We had 400 tons of medical supplies distributed in eight strategic locations around America. We can move them into any location within hours. We have 7,000 medical professionals that are distributed, and 90 medical assistance teams throughout America, that can be called in a very short period of time.
And we have CDC and NIH and other medical corps people that are able, also, to go into a community and assist the local health officers. So, yes, we can respond to any particular bioterrorism attack. Hopefully we will not have to prove that, but I'm confident that we can.
BROWN: Does the possibility of smallpox keep you up at night?
THOMPSON: Smallpox is certainly an explosive disease, and it's contagious, whereas anthrax is not. That's the big difference. The truth of the matter is, we don't have any intelligence that's indicated that we're going to have a smallpox breakout or a smallpox epidemic.
But even though we don't have that intelligence, the president and my department want to make sure that we are prepared for that eventuality. And therefore, we are going to purchase 300 million doses, one for every man, women and child, plus, in America.
So Americans can feel comfortable knowing that we're going to have that on hand in a relatively few short month, so that they can feel more comfortable, knowing their government is prepared to hand that eventuality, if it comes.
BROWN: And that would be sometime before the end of the year, if that were to happen, that vaccine would be available?
THOMPSON: We're hoping that the manufacturing can start some time the latter part of November, the early part of December. We had to put out a request for information, which is a proposal for manufacturing companies that want to get into the business of manufacturing smallpox vaccine. We sent out eight, and we received 10 responses, which shows the desire on the parts of a lot of companies that want to get into this business.
And we think that we will have some good contracts that we can look at. And we're fairly comfortable knowing that they'll be able to start producing the vaccine sometime, the latter part of November, or December this year.
BROWN: And, Sir, a quick final one. Do you know if the president has been vaccinated for smallpox? Have you been vaccinated recently for smallpox? Is the administration getting this?
THOMPSON: Nobody has. There hasn't been anybody that's been vaccinated for smallpox in America since 1972. And so the president hasn't, I haven't, you haven't. Nobody has. But we are getting prepared, if in fact, the eventuality of a smallpox breakout does come to America. We think it's a low probability, but even a low probability means that we have to be prepared. And that's what we're doing right now in America: getting prepared. BROWN: Mr. Secretary, I don't think any of us can truly appreciate how long and difficult and stressful these days have been on people in positions like you are. We appreciate very much your time. We hope you come back and join us again.
THOMPSON: Thank you, Aaron. Thank you for that nice comment. I appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Tommy Thompson, the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
This would be funny if it weren't so serious. The government today advising you to wash your hands after opening the mail. Doesn't exactly make you want to rush to the mailbox, does it? We'll trace the steps before the letter gets to your door when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Up to now, we've had an idea about who's on the front lines of this anthrax assault: the media, certainly, those in politics, we know. And those hit hardest so far, the people who work in the postal service.
But today it seemed like the government was trying to alert everyone to be very careful when they go to the mailboxes, suggesting you need to be careful to make sure that the letter you take out of the box was not sent by a terrorist.
CNN's Gary Tuchman has been looking into that -- Gary.
TUCHMAN: Well, Aaron, for most of us, the only unpleasant part of getting mail is receiving bills. But should you be concerned about receiving poison? The U.S. postal service says you should not be over concerned, because of what they are now doing, and what you should be doing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): You don't need a background check to drop a letter in a mailbox. So when you receive a letter, you're relying on the integrity of the person who sent it.
PETER NASH, U.S. POSTAL INSPECTOR: In the United States, every day, the postal service handles 680 million pieces of mail.
TUCHMAN: With that in mind, the postmaster general of the United States says the safety of the mail cannot be guaranteed. But extra precautions have now been put into place.
NASH: We have teams working around the clock, just checking suspect parcels, suspect letters, that may or may not contain anthrax.
TUCHMAN: After your mail goes into the mailbox, it typically is sent to a sorting center like this one. For the most part, the mail is sorted automatically, and is a fairly routine process. Postal employees have always put aside suspicious mail, but they are now being more vigilant.
NASH: Items that we've had to have the hazmat teams check out have turned out to be soap powder, detergent, different types of powder in the mail. There's powder used to keep magazines from sticking together.
TUCHMAN: When suspicious mail is found, the intended recipient is called and asked for the legal permission to have it examined. That's now occurring an average of 50 times a day in the New York City area alone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you don't know who the mail is coming from, don't open a package. Get rid of it.
TUCHMAN: Other tips from the postal inspectors that they use themselves: if your mail smells, is stained, or is lopsided, don't open it either.
After your mail reaches the sorting center, it typically makes two more stops -- to another sorting center near the destination, followed by the local post office. And then, to your mailbox.
Some people have come up with plans in case they receive a letter they regard as suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I'd open the window, I'd put a scarf around me, and I'd put on some gloves.
TUCHMAN: The post office bosses do say it couldn't hurt to wash your hands after you open your mail. They also say there are more security measures in store.
JOHN POTTER, POSTMASTER GENERAL: We are out on the market buying electron beam equipment that can penetrate the mail and kill any bacteria in the mail.
TUCHMAN: Meanwhile, the post office is now cleaning mail sorting equipment with vacuum cleaners, instead of blowers, which spreads dust. And stronger antibacterial cleaning chemicals are now being used on the machines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN: The U.S. postal service has 800,000 employees. They're being reminded by their top brass that protecting their fellow Americans is a crucial part of their jobs.
Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: Gary, thank you. Gary Tuchman on the process of the mail. Thank you.
All those procedures might seem a little late for postal workers, in the Washington area, in particular. You've heard a lot over the last couple of days from their bosses, their union reps. We thought we'd give them a little equal time, see how they feel.
Joining us tonight, Antonio White and Thomas Clark. They both work in different parts of the D.C. postal system. Good evening to both of you.
Are you -- let's start with Mr. White, I guess. Have you been around areas that are anthrax-tainted?
ANTONIO WHITE, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE EMPLOYEE: No, not so far, I haven't. But...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Go ahead, I'm sorry.
WHITE: Oh, I'm sorry. You go ahead.
BROWN: No, no. You were in the middle of a sentence.
WHITE: No, we haven't been Brentwood, per se. But we were just concerned about is anthrax in our building.
BROWN: Any particular reason why you're concerned, or is it just the sense that maybe they haven't checked everything as carefully as they need to?
WHITE: Yeah, they haven't checked, Aaron, for the fact that all of our mail comes from Brentwood station. So we are concerned maybe a letter coming to us was tainted with anthrax.
BROWN: And, Mr. Clark, same with you? Have you been around Brentwood or any of the other tainted facilities, or are you just concerned that mail that was there ended up in your bag?
THOMAS CLARK, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE EMPLOYEE: I haven't been to Brentwood, but I don't really know what to except. There's been so many different things said. And I don't understand why we haven't been afforded the same precaution as people receiving the letter. The letter comes through the system.
I'm mean, you know, they talk about white powder. That could have gotten out on another letter that's coming to our station. You know, but we just don't know anything. There's no one telling us how to wear gloves, what to do.
BROWN: Your supervisors aren't telling you that sort of thing, or bosses aren't saying, here is way we are going to change this now?
CLARK: No.
BROWN: Not at all.
CLARK: No, not at all. They are interested in serving the customer. That's their primary interest. And everything else is hit and miss. If it wasn't for television, I won't know anything. But I really don't know anything. But TV helps me a lot. TV has given me my concern, you know.
BROWN: Do you think they're being -- Mr. White, do you think that they are -- just don't care about you, or that they have so many other problems, they haven't figured out your problem yet?
WHITE: I think they care. But the fact is, it doesn't show, because we were -- it took so long for them to test us individually. And then all of us still hadn't been tested or provided the Cipro. And it's -- the procedure was kind of messed up.
They tested Brentwood first. Some carriers went down to D.C. General Hospital and were turned away, because they didn't work at Brentwood, even though their mail comes from Brentwood. So it's hard to say they don't care, but it took a while for the process to happen.
BROWN: Are you taking Cipro now?
WHITE: Yes, I am. I started Monday night.
BROWN: You did, and how long are you going to take it for?
WHITE: They gave us a 10-day supply.
BROWN: And have you been tested yet, or are you just taking it to be certain?
WHITE: I received a nasal swab, but I believe they stopped doing the nasal swab last night. They were just providing the employees with the Cipro itself.
BROWN: Mr. Clark, are you taking the Cipro?
CLARK: I just received my supply today. I have to check with my doctor before I do this.
I'm still in awe of how they're going to give you a pill without a diagnosis.
BROWN: Yes, it's a question, actually, we've all tried to figure out over the last few days. But I gather they just feel it's the safest way to do it.
CLARK: I can understand that, but give me the precautions that are afforded to everyone else. That's the only thing. And let me know something. People haven't really said anything.
BROWN: Well, we will -- it's hard to imagine, actually, the circumstances you both find yourselves in, the uncertainty that you must feel. And hopefully the government will do a better job, and your bosses will do a better job of getting you the information you need.
Mr. White and Mr. Clark, thank you for your time tonight. Good luck.
CLARK: You're welcome.
WHITE: You're welcome.
BROWN: You're in our thoughts. Thank you.
Coming up next, the latest on that other war, the one with the bombs and the guns, 7,000 miles away in Afghanistan. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There was a moment in today's Pentagon briefing, after those very brief bombing pictures were shown, and tucked in the middle of the frequently uttered "we're not going to talk about that," which was positively startling.
We have reports, said Rear Admiral John Stufflebeem, that the Taliban are plotting to poison relief supplies headed for civilians. CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even as it continues to bomb military targets, such as these warehouses near Kabul, the Pentagon has opened a second offensive against the Taliban on the PR front. Top Pentagon officials charge the Taliban are planning to poison American relief food and provide it to Afghan refugees.
REAR ADM. JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY OPERATIONS DIRECTOR: We are confident in the information that we have that they may intend to poison one or more types of food sources and blame it on the Americans. We are releasing this information preemptively, so that they will know if the food comes from Americans, it will not be tainted.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon offered no proof of the food poisoning plot, nor could it provide evidence to back up another charge: that Western journalists taken into Afghanistan by the Taliban October 12th, to view war casualties, were organized into a nighttime convoy in Taliban vehicles.
A Pentagon briefing slide called that a "possible deliberate attempt to expose journalists to airstrikes," thereby creating the potential for what one Pentagon official called a "strategic incident." While saying the Taliban are not as crafty as the Iraqis or Serbs, the Pentagon claims they are getting better at what's called "denial and deception," hiding military assets and creating diversions.
STUFFLEBEEM: The Taliban are moving into neighborhoods, staying in people's houses, putting their troops into university dormitories or using religious mosques to hide their vehicles.
MCINTYRE: To show the care the U.S. is taking not to strike religious or cultural sites, the Pentagon released two sets of pictures, one showing how an historic ancient fort was spared by pinpoint bombing of a Taliban barracks near Kabul, and second set showing how a helicopter had been moved near a mosque to protect it. The helicopter was hit, the mosque was not.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon reiterated its promise not to turn Afghan cities into rubble just to get the Taliban. Instead, the officials said, the U.S. military will "clever ways to go after them." But with that promise came a warning that urban warfare remains the most difficult and risky type of warfare. As one Pentagon official put it, "We don't have the luxury not to go after terrorists. We have to do this." Jamie Mcintyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
BROWN: According to the United Nations, U.S. air strikes in Afghanistan are pushing Afghan civilians out of their homes. Up to 70 percent of the people in the city of Herat in the western part of Afghanistan have left.
U.N. officials also say unexploded bombs are posing another risk to civilians. CNN's Sheila MacVicar joins us tonight from Islamabad. Sheila.
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Aaron. Well, as you know, we have a very small independent window into what is happening inside Afghanistan.
CNN's staff based in the Taliban stronghold of Kandahar, they reported to us a number of hours ago what they described as a sustained bombing run, lasting 25 or 30 minutes early last evening. The northeast edge of the city, from what they could see -- the explosions and flames that they could see -- they told us that they believed it had been a fuel dump that was hit. That of course comes after a day of fairly sustained bombing on other fronts.
Now, you mentioned concern that the United Nations expressed near Herat, the concern for the possibility of civilian casualties. In a small village outside of Herat, between the city of Herat and a military compound that had been the target of previous air raids -- an American cluster bomb apparently fell, leaving its unexploded bomblets in this village.
Now, the U.N. says their communications are bad, it's difficult to get information. But they know that U.N. mine clearance workers went to this village to try to look at these cluster bombs. Now, Dan Kelly, who runs the U.N.'s Mine Action Clearance Group described the problem with these bombs and the reasons why they could be so dangerous for civilians.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN KELLY, MANAGER, MINE ACTION PROGRAM: The villagers have a lot to be afraid of, because these bomblets -- if they did not explode -- are very dangerous and they can explode if villagers so much as even touch them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACVICAR: Now, Aaron, the U.N. is asking the Pentagon urgently to provide them information about how to defuse these bombs. The U.N. mine workers have never seen them before. They want to clean them up before any civilians get hurt. Aaron?
BROWN: Sheila, thanks. Sheila MacVicar in Islamabad, Pakistan. We'll be talking again.
Still ahead from us tonight, the silent partner leading the fight in America's new war. A name you should remember: General Tommy Franks. When we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, to me she was always like a super mom. I thought she could do anything she wanted to. She was that kind of person. Anything she put her mind to, she could get done, you know? In terms of her career or her personal life or just anything. Like she could get anything done if she wanted.
She went back to college when I was probably about nine or ten. So she was, you know, a single mom raising me as she went through college. And that's an incredible -- college is hard for me. I don't have any kids or anything. So I can't imagine how she was able to do that. And she was taking a full course load plus raising me and, you know, putting me in the best school and getting me in the best schools and the best classes and the best after-school programs and, you know, still being active in her personal life.
My mom was a beautiful person and she had a wonderful smile, a wonderful spirit. I have to say the one thing that I think I have from her now, especially going through this time, the most important thing is her strength. She was an incredibly strong woman, she was an incredible spirit. You know, just full of happiness, full of life. So if I could take anything from her, those would be the attributes I would take.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You may have seen him on the news today and couldn't place the name. By the end of America's new war -- whenever that is -- you may still have some trouble: General Tommy Franks, the man helping to lead this war, who's right now on a trip through Central Asia and the Middle East.
And this general is very different from another general, Norman Schwartzkopf. General Franks likes to cut a very low profile and reserve his soundbites for his staff, not the cameras. Which in our opinion is too bad, because they are pretty good sound bites. When confronting one problem, he was reported to have told the staffer, "I've been thinking about slitting my wrists or going bowling."
Tonight, meet the general, from CNN's Bob Franken. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not counting President Bush, the military portion of the war on terrorism is being run by three men. We see two of them all the time: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs Chairman Richard Myers. But the third could be accurately described as "the invisible man." Until now.
GENERAL TOMMY FRANKS, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Now, it's entirely fitting that you would see me standing in my area of operational responsibility.
FRANKEN: Army General Tommy Franks' "operational responsibility" includes a large chunk of the world. He is the "CINC," military talk for Commander in Chief of the Central Command, in charge of U.S. military operations in the Middle East, Africa, and Central Asia. His 25 nations include Afghanistan.
FRANKS: My purpose is to do my regular job, which is to be sure that we coordinate the activities that we have going on here in the region.
FRANKEN: General Franks has had experience with terrorism. When an explosion hit the USS Cole a year ago in Yemen, part of his territory. But he had only been on the job three months.
He has aggressively avoided the media, surfacing into grudging public view during his week-long tour of his command. He normally coordinates from Tampa, Florida, MacDill Air Force Base, headquarters of "CentCom," military speak for central command.
CentCom headquarters is so far away because of politics of the region. Open cooperation with the United States armed forces could cause an uproar in sensitive places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. So General Franks is on the phone a lot, not only with his subordinates but with those few who are higher on the ladder. When U.S. troops stormed in and out of Afghanistan over the weekend, this is how it worked.
GENERAL RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Under the direction of the president and the secretary of defense, and under the command of U.S. Central Command, General Tom Franks, special operations forces, including U.S. Army Rangers, deployed to Afghanistan.
FRANKEN: Franks got his first combat experience in Vietnam. He was wounded three times. During the Persian Gulf War, he was an assistant division commander. The CINC at that time was General Norman Schwarzkopf, "Stormin' Norman" they called him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENERAL NORMAN SCHWARZKOPF, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: I don't think I need to tell anybody here that we took one Scud missile in Saudi Arabia from southern Iraq. (END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: Hardly a day went by that General Schwarzkopf wasn't seen on camera. Hardly a day goes by that General Franks is seen. General Tommy Franks, the man who runs the massive day to day operations, is considered a full partner in carrying out this war, but almost always -- in public anyway -- a silent partner. Bob Franken, CNN, the Pentagon.
BROWN: It's not clear how much we're going to hear from that "silent partner," as Bob put it, in the months -- perhaps years -- ahead. So here's more of what General Franks had to say today at that briefing in Bahrain.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKS: The operations that we have ongoing involve not only what we call the kinetics, but also the humanitarian operations that we are conducting vis-a-vis Afghanistan. And I would be quick to remind everyone that what -- that what you refer to as that war -- that being what's going on Afghanistan -- is a piece of global effort. It's a piece of an overall effort that's designed to do a great many things: principally to get in front of this business of global terrorism and the global reach of terrorism.
And this floating coalition that we have, some members provide support and assistance that we don't advertise. Other members provide support and assistance very visibly. Some provide money. Some provide moral support. And what I'm doing is I'm out here traveling around and visiting with long-term friends that we have had in this region for a long time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary Powell said the other day that he would like to see Kabul fall by winter. Can you deliver that for him?
FRANKS: I'm not sure that I would want to describe what we will deliver at what point in time. I think someone asked the president, how long will it take to us solve this problem of global terrorism? And he said, "We will be at it for as long as it takes." And I think I'd leave the answer that way.
What we have done in each of our comments, what the secretary has done, what the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff has done is number one, be absolutely open and absolutely honest about the casualties that we have caused, and we will continue to do that.
And number two, to remind the world, that it is the enemy force -- it is the Taliban regime -- that not only tells untruths about the casualty situation inside Afghanistan, but further, limits our ability to provide the humanitarian assistance to that country to more than seven million people who are desperately in need.
The operations that we undertake go on 24 hours a day. They go on from the air, they go on day, they go on night, as you have seen, I think, in some of media. We have had elements on the ground inside Afghanistan. The efforts that we are about with regard to what we are after for this objective are going very, very well and I will leave it at that at this point.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: General Tommy Franks. Still ahead from us tonight, making a scary holiday safe. We knew this would be an issue. I knew this was going to happen. One mayor's plan and the criticism that's followed. A look at Halloween next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We may have to remind you what's happening a week from tonight. But your kids probably know. Halloween is coming. The scary holiday that's not really that scary at all. Now it's the real world that's really scary and mayors from around the nation are trying to deal with the fear that Halloween could be an opening for more terrorism. The message from New York's mayor today the same one we've heard since September 11th: Don't let the terrorists stop you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: The things that were stupid on other Halloweens. I mean, there are stupid people that act like jerks. So if they could prevent -- if they could try to control themselves and not act like jerks, that would be helpful. But that has always been true. We have a few extra ones in New York, because we are big city. We have more people here. We have eight million people. So that's three, four, five times a greater chance to have more jerks than if you were like -- like if were you in Phoenix, Arizona, you would have less jerks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That's the Rudy we have been missing all these weeks. Nice to have him back.
Another mayor is taking a different approach. Some have taken it as almost a traitor to an American tradition. A little harsh, that. Mayor Kenneth Barr -- excuse me -- of Fort Worth, Texas, is worried about security, wants parents to show "discretion." Mayor Barr, it's nice to see you. Thank you.
MAYOR KENNETH BARR, FORT WORTH, TEXAS: Thank you.
BROWN: What means discretion here?
BARR: Well, I think this a tremendous opportunity for parents to be involved with their children. As their children go out to trick or treat, it make a lot sense for the parents to keep eye on what's happening. It's an opportunity to steer the kids toward neighbors and family and people where they know who lives in house. We're certainly not trying to discourage Halloween or trick or treating, but this is a real opportunity for parents to be involved with children. I don't disagree with what Mayor Giuliani has said over and over. I think he has done a great job. All the mayors are proud of Mayor Giuliani. But in this case, I think it's an excellent opportunity to just be involved in what is going on with the kids.
BROWN: Trick or treat or trick or treat differently somehow?
BARR: Well, there are opportunities to go to church events, to go to community centers and places like that. This would probably be a very good year for that.
BROWN: What you are worried about here actually?
BARR: Well, I think there is an opportunity for people to take advantage of the occasion, think they are doing pranks that really are totally inappropriate. I think it's very clear that people understand that pranks related to terrorism are just not appropriate. And we have enough stress on our whole city organization across this -- in cities all across this country. We don't need to be dealing with that. So...
BROWN: You are not really worried with some sort of terror incident. You are worried about some really stupid incidents?
BARR: Obviously the potential is there where a terror incident could occur. But I think if a child comes home and there are strange substances in a sack of candy or something, that is going to alarm a lot of parents. I think it makes a whole lot more sense to use a little discretion on the front end. Know where the kids have been. Otherwise, we need to enjoy the holiday.
BROWN: It's always pretty decent advice to know where your kids are. What kind of a reaction have you been getting in Fort Worth to your comments?
BARR: A lot of my colleagues here at the Mayors' Conference meeting in Washington have said, "Well, I hear you have tried to ban Halloween." Well, that's not the case at all. Once we talked a little bit about it, people seemed to think, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Maybe we need to go home and consider what our city should be doing along these lines.
BROWN: It's all pretty sad, isn't it?
BARR: Well, I think it's sad. But I think it's a little bit about where we are right now. These are -- these are challenging times.
I'm here in Washington at a safety and security summit that the Conference of Mayors has called. I've been with a group of about 100 mayors all day today. We're talking about the fact that the cities are on the frontline in addressing responses to the problems that are occurring in cities across the country. It's costing the city governments enormous amounts of money. But the cities are there.
We are working with the FBI and other governmental agencies to coordinate the exchange of information. I think we are going to come out stronger and be able to respond very well to the crisis as it unfolds, if it does continue to unfold.
BROWN: Mayor Barr, we hope you have a safe Halloween down in Fort Worth, Texas.
BARR: All right. Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you, sir. Thanks for joining us. When come back, we will take a look at the word "evil." It's been used a lot lately. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Bush, safe to say, has long been a target of the language police. But even his toughest linguistic critics would have to give him some credit now: he has after all dusted off a 14th century word to fit a 21st century crime. Mr. Bush first said it five days after the attacks. He's said it countless times since, and again today. We've been listening. So has Jeanne Moos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some call the people who did this terrorists, some call them murderers, but President Bush calls them:
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Those evildoers.
BUSH: That these evildoers.
BUSH: A few evildoers.
BUSH: The evildoers struck, and when they did they aroused a mighty land.
MOOS: The president has aroused listeners with his choice of words.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has jumped out at me. Evildoers.
MOOS: From regular folks to impersonators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The evildoers.
MOOS: The President has picked what the editor of the language quarterly "Verbatim" calls an intense word.
ERIN MCKEAN, EDITOR, "VERBATIM": Evildoer is a very straightforward compound, a doer of evil.
MOOS: A person who commits profoundly immoral and malevolent deeds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's good English and it reflects the president's intelligence. I think he's perfectly right and I like the word.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're fanatics and they are evildoers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were doing evil, so why not call them evildoers?
MOOS: Why not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a bit extreme. It's too much polarization. I think it's a very black-and-white view of things.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a bit of a cowboy act.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it goes over the top. It gets into biblical overtones. Good and evil. We're good. They're evil.
MOOS: Even those who see no evil in the term "evildoers" might note a resemblance.
MICHAEL WOLFF, COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK MAGAZINE": But I think the important point is, it's a Reagan pick-up.
MOOS: "New York" magazine media columnist Michael Wolff is referring to how President Reagan used to refer to the Soviet Union.
RONALD REAGAN PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The aggressive impulses of an evil empire.
MOOS: Now the former evil empire has joined the fight against the evildoers. And if evil has religious connotations:
WOLFF: Osama is the devil.
MOOS: It's hard to outdo evildoers.
MCKEAN: I was trying to think if there were synonyms that President Bush could have used, and there doesn't seem to be any good ones. I mean, you don't want to call them miscreants.
MOOS: This woman had a few suggestions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're slimy cowards, I think. Vicious, miserable, cowardly losers. But evildoers sounds to me old-fashioned.
MOOS: Evildoers reminded these kids of cartoon villains.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From like Dudley Do-Right, the guy with the big black hat and the cape and bicycle moustache.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "ROCKY AND BULLWINKLE")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR (as Dudley Do-Right): Halt. You are under arrest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOOS: If only it were this easy to deliver us from evildoers.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We debated -- to be honest -- today about whether this item mattered or how much it mattered. And we decided it mattered about 10 seconds' worth, so start your clock. Here we go. O.J. Simpson is -- was acquitted today of road charges -- or charges stemming from a road rage incident in south Florida. He could have gone to jail. He won't. That's twice. Enough said.
We leave this hour at ground zero for a couple reasons; to remind you first of the numbers down there. 4,964 now it appears will be the total number killed and missing at the World Trade Center.
But something else caught our eye today from earlier. Look how different it now appears, how much they have cleared away in the last six weeks. Really a little bit less than that. They didn't get started right away. And they have built roads in there, or at least cleared away roads in there. And there are areas that are quite cleared out now. 1.2 million tons have been removed. Ground zero as it looked to us today. We will update the latest developments after this break.
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