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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Scenarios and Solutions
Aired October 26, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. I promised one of my bosses today I wouldn't use this space to rant tonight, and I promised my producer I would keep it short. The program is packed.
We're going to spend a considerable amount of time on what might be coming next, on what we call "Scenarios and Solutions." We have assembled a very interesting group of people to look at areas of vulnerability in the country and how to make the country less vulnerable. Now here's the tricky part, and it's important. We have asked each of those guests to be very careful in what they say, especially when they talk of vulnerabilities.
For example, let's say there was one computer that could shut the country down. We are not giving out the address, though one of our guests does likely know it. So no state secrets are going to be revealed. But what's really scary is the bad guys probably know all this anyway.
We'll do that, and we'll also do the day's news.
Today, President Bush signed the anti-terrorism bill into law, the kind of landmark legislation that would have taken years to pass before September 11. This time, it took just weeks.
So much evidence today of why we need these laws, some would argue, an anthrax scare that seems to spread by the hour. Today, a mail security serving the Supreme Court has tested positive for anthrax, and just minutes ago we learned that three anthrax hot spots were discovered in the Longworth House building.
But that's not the picture you are seeing. What you are seeing there are Lockheed workers celebrating when they heard their company had won the history's biggest military contract. We'll get this in the right order, count on it -- $200 billion dollars -- there we go -- to develop the joint strike fighter jet, the economy of Afghanistan eight times over.
Now we go first tonight, though, to Capitol Hill, where there is a major announcement of more anthrax found in the Capitol campus.
LT. DAN NICHOLS, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE: Tonight, we have had the results back from some of the samples we have taken from the Longworth House office building. After further analysis, we have determined we have three locations within the Longworth House office building thus far which have tested positive for anthrax bacteria.
These locations are room 1740, which is the office of Congressman John Baldacci, who is a Democrat of Maine. Room 1630, which is the offices of Congressman Rush Holt, who is also a Democrat of New Jersey. The third location is room 1605, which is the office of Congressman Mike Pence, who is a Republican of Indiana. These offices are on the sixth and seventh floors of the Longworth House office building.
It's important to note that these are trace samples, much like the ones we found in the elevator in the Hart Senate office building. There are merely trace samples. Nonetheless, we are continuing to find elements of bacteria within the Capitol complex.
We have conducted sampling throughout all of the buildings. All of the results are in for most of the buildings now. We are still awaiting some further results of the Longworth House building. If there are any further results to warrant a press conference...
BROWN: Now we are seeing that these three offices have shown trace samples of anthrax. This announcement just being made.
That steals a bit the headline away from Eileen O'Connor, who has been working the anthrax development, but we'll start with Eileen just the same. Eileen, what have you got?
EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the head of the CDC is saying that the fact that all of these -- that anthrax is showing up at all of these places means that it's unlikely or nearly impossible that all these places are getting contaminate from just that one letter sent to Senator Daschle.
BROWN: More on that coming up. The Post Office continues to make news here in New York as well. Gary Tuchman is working that story. Gary, the headline from you.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, four sorting machines have tested positive for anthrax here in New York City, but the building is still open for business. So the Postal Union is fighting that decision, saying there's a double standard -- Aaron.
BROWN: Back with you in a bit. In Atlanta, Elizabeth Cohen on a major development out of the Centers for Disease Control. Elizabeth, the headline.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the CDC says that they are going to start vaccinating some high-risk workers, that is giving them the anthrax vaccine.
BROWN: And Elizabeth, we're back with you as well in a bit.
Sheila MacVicar in Islamabad on the war and the side effects -- Sheila?
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very bad news today for forces against the Taliban, and especially for the U.S. administration. The leading opposition commander Abdul Haq captured inside Afghanistan and executed by the Taliban. He had gone in to try to raise support for that coalition-building against the Taliban. Instead, he was handed over and executed -- Aaron.
BROWN: We'll get back to all of you shortly.
We begin again, though, with the frustration over the spores that keep turning up and shutting down branches of government. More hot spots on Capitol Hill, as we just told you. This time, three offices in the Longworth House building, and then earlier today it was the Supreme Court. Anthrax showing up on a filter of the facility that handles the mail for the court -- not at the court. It's an off site facility several miles away.
No one is taking any chances. The court will be shut down tomorrow for testing. It's the fourth anthrax discovery in Washington in 24 hours. At least everyone asking, how could, is it possible that one letter, the Daschle letter, is leaving such a long trail? The investigation grows. Back with Eileen O'Connor now in Washington. Eileen, Good evening.
O'CONNOR: Good evening. Truly the most perplexing question, just how are so many places getting contaminated? Now, the head of the CDC says he thinks it's unlikely, highly unlikely, in fact, "virtually impossible," he says that they could have -- all these places could have become cross-contaminated from just that one letter.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'CONNOR (voice-over): Determining the high degree of sophistication of the anthrax found in the letter to Senate majority leader Tom Daschle narrowed the list of suspects only slightly.
State labs like Russia or Iraq or a Ph.D. trained in one able to recreate an independent biological weapons program.
JAVED ALI, CNN BIOTERRORISM ANALYST: It could have been stolen, it could have been bought illegally. Or the other explanation is that whoever the entity is that is producing or sponsoring these incidents that they themselves actually manufactured this material to that level of sophistication.
O'CONNOR: The range of possibilities is frustrating. Investigators and the administration.
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: Whoever thought they would take an envelope and turn it into a weapon of terror.
O'CONNOR: Also frustrating, the mystery of why anthrax spores are turning up at a rising number of government buildings and postal facilities in the Washington area.
Investigators are tracing the route of anthrax-laced letters and at the same time the route of anthrax spores. One of three letters sent from Trenton, New Jersey was addressed to Senate majority leader Tom Daschle in Washington, D.C., and like all government mail, went through the Brentwood postal facility, and then on to a special post office on P Street that sends mail to the Capitol Hill. Every place along the way tested positive for anthrax spores.
Other places that tested positive for spores in the Washington area but never identified any suspicious letters: The Anacostia Naval Station, which handles White House mail, a Supreme court postal holding center at an undisclosed location, the southwest post office, Walter Reed Hospital, a facility in Sterling, Virginia which handles State Department mail and the CIA -- all received mail that went through Brentwood.
The question is, are there more letters, or just the one sent to Senator Daschle that transferred spores to nearby mail?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'CONNOR: And of course if there are more letters, where are they? Are they still out there? To quell some of the fears mail bound for the nation's Capitol has done a little a detour to Ohio and a facility in Lima, Ohio that will sanitize it by an electronic beam system. And that, they say, Aaron, will kill all the remaining anthrax spores, if there are any out there -- Aaron.
BROWN: It's an amazing story, Eileen. Thank you. And again, just a few minutes ago it was announced that the Longworth building, House office building, three offices there with trace amounts of anthrax. Nine justices of the U.S. Supreme Court and their staffs will not be going to work tomorrow as they planned to, though hundreds of postal workers will, in a building where anthrax already is a reality. As you can imagine, that's not sitting terribly well with many of the workers. Gary Tuchman is working that story at the main post office in Manhattan. Gary, good evening to you again.
TUCHMAN: Aaron, good evening to you.
The Postal Union in the city says it will go to court to try to shut down the Morgan mail processing facility. Anthrax has been found in four different spots, but in other spots in the building it's still business as usual.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN (voice-over): This was the day Thomas Morris Jr. was laid to rest, the 32-year veteran of the U.S. Postal Service died of anthrax inhalation, as did one of his colleagues. Their deaths have changed many of the peers' lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel scared. I don't feel safe. You know, I don't feel safe at all.
TUCHMAN: Johnny Callazzo (ph) is a mail handler in the vast Morgan processing center in New York City. Four sorting machines like these have tested positive for anthrax. The machines are off limits, but the building remains open for workers, which raises this question for many of the Morgan employees: Why was the U.S. Supreme Court closed when anthrax was found in an off-site mail warehouse? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't have no Supreme Court justice working at Morgan. No, we don't have no congressman working at Morgan. What we have are everyday citizen working at Morgan. And our lives are just as much important to me as the Supreme Court justices' lives are or them congressmen lives are.
TUCHMAN: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says the anthrax letters passed through Morgan last month. And there is no longer a realistic chance of mail being tainted there, so closure is unnecessary.
Postal service management agrees.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think there's an us and them side of this thing. But I think that you have to have some trust in the experts whose profession is to identify these types of problems and develop solutions for them.
TUCHMAN: Postal employees in New York say many of their colleagues did no go to work on Friday because of their fears. Manuel Vega (ph) did go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to come to work, you know. I don't have that luxury like somebody in Washington, you know. And it's upsetting. It really is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN (on camera): These particular postal employees have been offered Cipro as a precaution. But many of them believe a more prudent precaution would be shutting the workplace doors -- Aaron.
BROWN: Gary, thank you.
Gary Tuchman at the main post office in New York.
We need to, at some point, figure out exactly how many postal workers in the country are on Cipro now. They have been speaking out all week long. Their voices louder, angrier as each new case gets discovered.
The president honored them in a speech today and then this evening the government decided maybe the postal workers needed more than kind words.
Again, medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen in Atlanta.
Elizabeth, good evening again to you.
COHEN: Good evening, Aaron.
Aaron, the CDC says that some high-risk workers, now that group might include postal workers -- might not -- ought to get vaccinated against anthrax.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) Soldiers have been getting the anthrax vaccine for years.
And Friday, CNN learned that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention plans on giving it to civilians too, those on the front line in the fight against anthrax.
DR. DAVID FLEMING, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: Laboratory workers who are in a position of handling these environmental specimens; investigators out in the field who are going to be moving from site to site; people who are experts in decontamination who would be facing an indefinite period of antibiotic prophylaxis because of an ongoing exposure -- that's the folks who vaccine makes the most sense.
COHEN: In other words, Dr. Fleming said some workers may be dealing directly with this anthrax situation for a long time and it would be medically unwise to put these people on antibiotics for months and months.
The CDC said they are also considering whether some postal workers and other high-risk groups should get the anthrax vaccine, too. They will make that decision in the next two weeks.
FLEMING: There's a task force now that's assessing the question of the risks and benefit of vaccination for other groups of people. They are deliberating that. We don't -- we won't be coming out with recommendations on that in the future.
COHEN: The CDC has been negotiating to get the vaccine from the Department of Defense, which now owns the entire national stock of the vaccine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Now those high-risk workers -- that means the lab workers, those whose work in decontamination, those who work in the investigation -- won't be getting their vaccinations for at least two weeks -- Aaron.
BROWN: Elizabeth, do we know how much of the vaccine is out there, because somewhere -- I think I read -- that the plant that makes it has been shut down.
COHEN: Well the plant itself hasn't been shut down. They have just been told they are not allowed to ship any more out.
BROWN: OK.
COHEN: They are waiting for the FDA to give them the OK.
But the Pentagon has a stockpile of this vaccine. They won't tell us how much they have in that stockpile. And they have been negotiating with the CDC to get it to these civilians. That's where they're going to get it from, is the Pentagon.
BROWN: Elizabeth, thanks.
Elizabeth Cohen in Atlanta this evening. The government's ability to tap your phone and read your e-mail and look into your bank account expanded greatly today. It's as simple as that.
The anti-terrorism bill -- and it is sweeping -- was signed into law. Very big changes in a very short amount of time.
White House correspondent Major Garrett now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The warrior president told top business leaders he still doesn't know the source of anthrax now in America, but does know the value system.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And anybody who puts anthrax trying to kill American citizens shares the same sets of values.
Whoever has done it shares that same value of evil that we saw on September the 11th and we'll find them and bring them to justice as well.
GARRETT: The president's spokesman said the anthrax could have been produced by a skilled scientist.
FLEISCHER: It could only be produced by a Ph.D microbiologist. And it would have to have been done in a small well-equipped microbiology lab or it could be in something like a small microbiology lab. That does not rule out that it could be state sponsored.
GARRETT: The bottom line on the anthrax culprit or culprits: still more questions than answers.
But amid the uncertainty, the president signed a new counterterrorism law he said would protect civil liberties and blunt future attacks.
BUSH: This legislation is essential not only to pursuing and punishing terrorists, but also preventing more atrocities in the hands of the evil ones.
This government will enforce this law with all the urgency of a nation at war.
GARRETT (on camera): Flush from his victory on counterterrorism, the president pressed Congress for more: tens of billions in tax cuts, a new energy policy, expanded free-trade powers.
Senate Democrats have resisted all three, which means it's now time for Mr. Bush to put his war-time popularity to the test.
Major Garrett, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Those are the major developments at home today.
There were also major developments overseas. We'll get to those when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The war for Afghanistan's future took a body blow today and it happened off the battle field.
The Taliban says it captured a key opponent, tried him, and then executed him.
CNN's Sheila MacVicar joins us again from Islamabad, Pakistan.
Sheila, good morning in your case.
MACVICAR: Good morning, Aaron.
Well, the veteran Afghan commander, guerrilla commander, who won much respect for his conduct and the conduct of his troops in the old war with the Soviet Union had slipped back into Afghanistan to try to raise support for the anti-Taliban forces.
He apparently had gone into a tribal area of Afghanistan to meet with some tribal leaders to try to persuade them to defect from the Taliban, to begin to support this anti-Taliban coalition.
Instead, what happened, he was apparently turned over to the Taliban forces. We know -- the Pentagon has confirmed -- that he made a cell phone call asking for help. The only asset in the neighborhood was a missile-armed predator drone. It fired its missiles. It was not enough.
Mr. Haq was captured. The Taliban say that he was found with a satellite telephone, a lot of U.S. dollars, and what they describe as very important documents.
After a very short trial, he was hanged in Kabul.
Now in the shooting war today, after -- there has been 24 hours of what has been described as sustained and sometimes very intense bombing across the front in Kabul. Late last night, there were sustained explosions. It looks like they hit a military dump there.
But probably the biggest thing, from the point of view of the Pentagon, is that they've had to admit that they accidentally -- and for the second time in this conflict -- bombed warehouses belonging to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Now these warehouses contain food aid, humanitarian supplies meant for the people of Afghanistan. The Pentagon has said it was a mistake -- Aaron.
BROWN: Sheila, are you getting reports at all that this bombing is going on still, that it's going on now?
MACVICAR: We haven't heard anything for the last couple of hours.
But clearly, over the last 24, 36, 48 hours, there is a sense that the pace has picked up. There has been criticism of the U.S.-led campaign by Northern Alliance commanders who basically are saying, "Look, you know, you are just not getting the job done here. We want you to pound heavier on those Taliban frontlines. We can't make any movement. We are not making any progress."
The Pentagon has said well that they understand the frustration. They have also had to acknowledge that the Taliban are proving to be, I think -- more fierce warriors -- was the phrase that was used, than had perhaps been expected.
But there is a sense that the campaign perhaps is gaining some momentum. Certainly, what we have heard in terms of reports from Kabul, from other places inside Afghanistan, there has been no sense of any diminution over the last number of hours -- Aaron.
BROWN: Sheila, thanks. Sheila MacVicar in Islamabad this evening.
Should there actually come a time for a post-Taliban government in Afghanistan, forming it will be no walk in the park. That was true even before Abdul Haq was executed today. It's especially true now. State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. officials readily admit exiled Afghan commander Abdul Haq has been an important employer in the ever-evolving U.S. strategy to help build a broad-based post-Taliban government in Afghanistan. A leading commander of anti-Soviet Mujahedeen in the 1980s, Haq made no secret of his desire to rally Afghans to rise up against the Taliban.
And so when the Bush administration first heard reports Haq had been captured and killed by the Taliban, the reaction was one of concern.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: It would be a loss for those who believe in that effort, for those who believe in a broad-based government for Afghanistan.
KOPPEL: The Taliban claims it captured Haq near Kabul, the Afghan capital. At the same time near Kandahar, another exiled anti- Taliban leader, Hamed Karzai is believed to be on a similar mission to undermine the Taliban. Karzai, like Haq, is a prominent member of the Pashtun, the dominant ethnic group in Afghanistan, comprising 40 percent of the population.
The challenge for the Bush administration and others opposed to the Taliban to convince not only the Pashtun, whose exiled king has become a rallying force, but also Afghanistan's many other ethnic groups and tribes to support a new government to replace the Taliban. They include the Tajiks, the Baluch, Aimaq and Hazara ethnic groups, as well as the Turkmen and Uzbeks, each with its own agenda. ANATOL LIEVEN, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: We need Afghans who will occupy territory and drive out or kill al Qaeda. If we can't find Afghans like that, then we have to do it ourselves on the ground. And that would be a terrible business, you know, lasting a very long time.
KOPPEL: Further complicating matter, Afghanistan's neighbors, in particular Pakistan, Iran, Russia and India support different ethnic groups. In recent days, President Bush and Secretary of State Powell have tried to move everyone to the same page.
LIEVEN: It's a great game but very small stakes, actually, or at least it was until the 11th of September, which has raised the stakes enormously. It's pathetic in a way. I mean, Afghanistan is one of the poorest societies on earth.
KOPPEL (on camera): With so many competing interests, replacing the Taliban won't be easy. Said one senior State Department official: "We don't have a secret as to how to get the Afghans organized. There is no favorite son." In other words, this is a work in progress.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Coming up next, thinking about the worst. What choice do we have. But we'll also look at solutions as well. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There is a very good reason Hollywood screenwriters have been working with the Army since September 11. The terrorists, after all, are acting more like movie villains out of central casting -- intensely creative, ingenious, and certainly from the U.S. perspective, evil.
So tonight we are going to try to imagine what plot they might be working on and how to thwart those plans. Scenario and solutions. We start with a look at the possibility of cyberterrorism. Here's CNN Ann Kellan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANN KELLAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Could air traffic controllers lose control of airplanes in flight? Could trucks filled with nuclear waste be diverted to unauthorized locations? Money funneled to secret bank accounts? Communications at the Pentagon intercepted, even altered?
Yes, terrorists could do all that and more, using computer networks and the Internet. Top security experts say the cyberterror threat is real, and the infrastructure is vulnerable.
CHRIS DARBY, @STAKE: It's a lot like the physical threat was before September 11. It's acknowledged, but it hasn't really been dealt with. CHRIS WYSOPAL, @STAKE: You can't be complacent about the vulnerability. Our adversaries will eventually figure out how to exploit them.
KELLAN: For example, three yeas ago, as the U.S. was preparing to send troops back to the Persian Gulf, all the computers of the military units involved were taken over. The president's newly appointed cybersecurity tsar Richard Clarke remembers.
RICHARD CLARKE, CYBERSPACE SECURITY ADVISER: And we immediately assumed it was Saddam Hussein and Iraq. And then, over the course of three or four days of intense investigation, we were able to establish that it was two 14-year-old boys in San Francisco.
KELLAN: While an attack like that would be more difficult today, there are other tactics. A passive takeover is one way a terrorist could try to infiltrate a network.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you passively watch and listen...
KELLAN: Peter Majzadko (ph) works for the security firm @Stake and has for years consulted with government officials about computer flaws and vulnerabilities. Here, he legally demonstrates a passive attack, targeting his company. These employees are checking e-mail, surfing the Internet, and have no idea that "Mudge" (ph), as he's known, in the office down the hall is watching everything they are transmitting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody is sending some e-mail back there. They are making a connection.
KELLAN: Mudge (ph) shows how an intruder can steal passwords, log-ins and proprietary information, potentially giving a terrorist control of a company's or government's computers.
Router networks are also vulnerable. Much of the software used to route traffic along the information highway is full of security holes exploitable by anyone, including terrorists.
KELLAN (on camera): What could they do?
CLARKE: Well, they could take it down if they wanted to. They could reroute traffic to places that it wasn't originally intended. They could disrupt content flows. In the financial industry, they could disrupt the markets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I push the button here, you will see on the screen that it puts up a particular signature and it's very noticeable.
KELLAN: These experts say wireless gadgets, like PDAs, BlackBerries, even cell phones could be targets. A terrorist could sneak software onto a PDA or a BlackBerry and monitor e-mail, grab passwords, even sneak into a company or government agency's main computer network.
CLARKE: A lot of it has to do with the way software is developed. It's not developed with security in mind.
KELLAN: Wireless laptops are vulnerable too. Plug in a wireless modem, attach a $40 dollar antenna, and if a company is set up with receivers to accept wireless transmissions, this laptop becomes a potential terrorist tool. Here, security experts legally show how they can eavesdrop on a fellow employee's Internet activities from a parking lot.
GARY MCGRAW, DIGITAL: So, people are saying, "let's do wireless, let's have an application where our bond traders can get access to this information they need, or our stock traders or whatever, or doctors and nurses." And that's all good. But they don't think, "bad guys might have access to this, too."
KELLAN (on camera): The U.S. government is considering setting up a more private secure network. As for public system, security experts say software has to be designed to be more secure.
Ann Kellan, CNN, Boston.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that's just one area of danger. There are more and we'll look at a number of them in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight we brought together four gentlemen who have been thinking and working on worst-case scenario and solutions for years. Their warnings might have seemed far-fetched on September 10. Nothing seems far-fetched these days.
From Mountain View, California tonight, Peter Black, an expert on warfare targeting the infrastructure in the country. In Tampa, Florida, Winn Schwartau, an expert on cyberwar. Matt Devost in Washington, D.C. He's at the Terrorism Research Center. And also in D.C. Robert Steele, a former spy and anti-terrorism operations officer. Good evening to all of you.
Let's just go quickly around the horn. Peter, start with you if we can. two or three things that you find especially vulnerable out there.
PETER BLACK, INFRASTRUCTURE WARFARE EXPERT: I tend to be interested in things that will cause an economic shock to the United States. And the three that I figured would be interesting to discuss this evening are the Alaskan pipeline, the Panama Canal and the natural gas pipeline system.
BROWN: And Winn, we talked a bit about cyberterrorism a few moments ago. Areas you find particularly vulnerable?
WINN SCHWARTAU, CYBERWAR EXPERT: Three main areas. The wireless network -- a thorough security disaster. Number two, people. We don't look enough at people security and how they affect the operations. And number three is electromagnetic weapons. The government calls them due.
BROWN: And Mr. Steele, two or three that jump out at you.
ROBERT STEELE, FORMER SPY: Well, we have already lost the intelligence war. They attacked us and we had six separate failures. We have lost the public relations and cultural outreach war so far. And last but not, least public health. I think the anthrax is local. I think smallpox and the plague carried by living, suicidal bombers is the next step.
BROWN: And we'll be back with you shortly. Mr. Devost. Matt, a couple or three things that jump out at you.
MATT DEVOST, THE TERRORISM RESEARCH CENTER: Yes. Our organization really isn't in the habit of naming actual public targets. What we like to do is evaluate the overall approach. And I think what we need to be focusing on now is recognizing that the enemy is looking at how they can weaponize certain elements of our society and use those against us.
They no longer have to build the bombs themselves. They can use currently existing infrastructures and have consequences within our society. That's kind of the approach that we bring to this.
BROWN: OK. So, Matt, feel free to jump in -- all of you feel free to jump in as we go along. Peter, back to you. Why don't you start on the Alaskan pipeline and we will work with that for a bit.
BLACK: Well, you probably remember there was a story a couple of weeks about a loony up in Alaska who fired a high caliber rifle at the pipeline and essentially dropped it for awhile. And that's just a guy with a rifle in the outback.
The pipeline itself is highly vulnerable and the key insights that I think needs to be taken here is that it's impossible to in fact post sentries all along its 800 mile course and at all the pump stations and Valdez and such and the like. The important thing with this system and other critical systems of the infrastructure of the United States is that we be prepared to bounce back if they have been struck. Bounce back quickly. It takes a licking and keeps on ticking should be the watch word for critical infrastructure.
BROWN: And the Panama Canal, the importance -- it's not really American property anymore.
BLACK: It isn't, although we have treaties that can cause us to take over control again. But a huge amount of raw materials, oil, gas, finished products pass through it on the way to the Gulf -- not the Persian Gulf but the Texas Gulf and to the East Coast. And also, the ability of the navy to move men and materiel is still critical -- critically dependent upon the Panama Canal. And the Panama Canal is in many ways quite vulnerable.
BROWN: And I believe, Peter, your third one was the natural gas pipelines that work the northeast? BLACK: Yeah, and that's one -- although some of the guys on the panel may have some incremental information to add to this, it's a system that is largely controlled by computers, operating switches and systems and such and the like. So it's not just physically vulnerable, it's cybervulnerable. And if the system were brought down, some studies have indicated that it would not recover quickly. You can imagine how long it would take everyone to get everyone to safely relight their pilot lights.
BROWN: We will revisit the solutions, part of all this, in a moment.
Winn, let me go to you. You laid out three areas as well. Expand on them in 90 seconds or so.
SCHWARTAU: Wireless networks. We have new standards out there. They don't work. They've been cracked as recently as last July, and we're seeing networks all over the country use them and they should not be. You're going to break into them, sooner or later.
The electromagnetic weapons systems. This has been an area of U.S., Russian and Chinese research for many years, but there are also terrorist-level home-brew weaponization programs that are capable of causing immense damage to an infrastructure.
And then the third problem is people. How do we trust the people that are running the critical systems of this country and keep them operating reliably? We have not really combined the cyber and the personal -- the personnel end yet.
BROWN: Mr. Steele, weigh in here. Either on anyone said or anything you want to add to the list.
STEELE: Well, all four of us are friends. And I think Winn Schwartau in particular, with Peter Black's article in "Wired" as well, we are very successful at getting the U.S. government to spend a great deal of money on information operations and electronic issues. And Dick Clark exists today because Winn, among others, finally got Congress to pay attention to this.
What we didn't realize was that we had allowed our international intelligence system and our domestic counterintelligence system and our domestic public health warning system to atrophy to the point that it simply work. And that really concerns me, because the president is putting good money into bad systems and not doing as Senator Shelby and McCain and Thompson suggest to actually hold hearings, hold the intelligence community accountable and get this stuff fixed.
BROWN: And Matt, I've got about a minute or so before I go break. Just take everything you've heard, if you the want, and sum it up.
DEVOST: Sure. All very valid concerns on all fronts. I think Peter touched on a very good point, though, and that is in our response and reconstitution of some of these infrastructures. We have to be focusing -- when we look at what our threats and exposures are, we also need to focus on what our response would be and what the overall impact would be if a certain infrastructure went down.
We also need to recognize that our response is going to be a potential new target. The enemy will gather intelligence with regard to how we respond to certain events and will use that against us for future attacks.
BROWN: Are they doing that right now with anthrax, do you think?
DEVOST: I'm sure they're watching with great interest our response to anthrax, recognizing that small traces of anthrax can shut down very large buildings. Now what if we find traces of anthrax in a building that is dealing with human services or health that can't be shut down, that there are human life consequences if that building is shut down? We need to demonstrate an ability to respond to those types of events as well.
BROWN: And I know the producers are going to kill me now, but I saw you nodding there, Mr. Steele. Did you want to weigh in here just briefly on that point?
STEELE: It's absolutely essential that the surgeon general seek to increase the public health system, the uniform public health service, by a factor of perhaps five, instead of attending classes and meetings on bullying kids. We have more serious things for him to be doing.
BROWN: There's just one solution on the table. We will take a look at a number of others. We'll take a short break first and then rejoin our guests after that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're back with our guests as we talk more about scenarios and solutions. Peter, you talked about the Alaskan pipeline, the Panama Canal, natural gas pipelines in northeastern part of the country. Is there a common theme to how you would make them more safe?
BLACK: Well, in the United States we've made a practice not of putting arson inspectors in everybody's home, but rather of having fire departments that can respond quickly when an emergency does occur. There's no reason why up on the Alaska pipeline they couldn't have an emergency response team that would be practiced, constantly tested in their ability to identify and repair a damaged portion of the pipeline.
Same thing with the Panama Canal, same thing with the natural gas pipeline system and any number of other components of the critical infrastructure. It's the ability to bounce back that is going to determine our ability to survive these kinds of attacks, not the ability to prevent them, because fundamentally, it's impossible to protect against any and all attacks.
BROWN: Winn, same thing. Is there a common theme to how you would deal with the prospects of cyberterrorism? SCHWARTAU: Well, I agree with Peter absolutely. Response is absolutely critical. The term graceful degradation Robert came up with a few years ago, and how to reconstitute -- I was at a store the other evening and their computers were down and I could not make a purchase. Now, if this happens systemically across the country we would certainly have some severe problems.
We don't have the way to fall back right now to something that's called paper and pencil, where we used to be able to do things. So we need to look at that in terms of how fast we can rebuild the systems and get back online.
The other thing we need to do is realize that cyberspace is not just about the virtual. It is based upon copper and glass and computers that's physical. And we have to be able to protect the physical aspects of cyberspace as well.
BROWN: Mr. Steele, the other -- I think maybe it was last week -- we were talking with someone about smallpox. And I said, it struck me that if you could get someone to infect themselves with smallpox, get them into the country and walk him through -- just walk him through a big city -- you would have yourself an epidemic. How do you solve or protect against something like that?
STEELE: With counterintelligence and with effective clandestine intelligence. We have a decrepit, ineffective counter -- counterintelligence and clandestine intelligence cadre today.
We also have not educated the American people. We are at war. The world is at war. There are billions of people that do not like America, and I think we have to help the public understand that we have not been doing our part in terms of getting along with the kinds of people that Senator McGovern pointed out earlier on CNN that harbor and spawn terrorists.
BROWN: The problem with that in this moment, it would seem to me, is I'm not sure how receptive the country would be to it right now. We are six weeks from the worst terrorist attack imaginable, just about.
STEELE: There are three things the president should be doing. He's only doing one of them.
The first one is the tactical issue of hunting down and bringing to justice the terrorists that hit us.
The operational or intermediate issue is making America safe. That includes getting control of our visa process. Nobody's records are truly checked by their host country or anyone else.
And the third strategic level is what approaches should we take to completely transforming the American military so that it can do manhunts, so that it can handle this kind of thing. You cannot send a nuclear carrier or a joint strike fighter against the kinds of bin Ladens that we are going to be fighting for the next hundred years. BROWN: Matt, I've been watching you up in the corner of my monitor here. You have got a great poker face. Sum some of this up here. I'm not sure what you are thinking right now.
DEVOST: I actually -- we cheated in between -- during the commercial break Robert brought up one of my pet issues, and that's the issue of due diligence. And that kind of applies across all of these solution sets that we are talking about.
I know that particularly in the cyberarena, most of the vulnerabilities that can be exploited are known vulnerabilities for which patches exist. If the companies aren't out there implementing best practices -- that applies to physical infrastructures as well -- if they're not conducting the threat assessments, bringing the experts in, we're going to continue to be vulnerable.
So we need to foster an environment where due diligence is the norm, and that we eliminate some of the negligence, eliminate some of the inherent vulnerabilities in these infrastructures so that we can all sleep a little easier at night.
BROWN: Winn, real quick...
BLACK: Aaron?
BROWN: Yeah, go ahead.
BLACK: I'd like to add one thing to this.
BROWN: Please. Please.
BLACK: The four guys you have got on the air tonight are all auslanders. We are all people who are outside the Beltway. We are all people who have talked about this stuff for a decade and have not been part of the governmental process.
STEELE: And are still not being listened to today.
BLACK: Yeah, and that's true. And one of the key things that the Office of Homeland Security and the Bush administration has to do now is reach out beyond the Beltway, reach out to the people who are extraordinary and unconventional thinkers. And there are a cadre of those people available -- we're not the only four -- and bring them into the process.
Think of it this way: the two major attacks that have taken place against the United States in the last seven weeks were not properly anticipated by the conventional thinkers in the government. Unconventional thinking, built around the premise of coming up with fast, agile and unexpected responses to these kinds of attacks, is critical now.
BROWN: Do any of you see in -- just in the last seven weeks -- that the government is more willing or even eager to work outside its traditional bureaucracies? I'll take that as a no, I guess. DEVOST: I think I -- I actually have encountered that a little. I think we are starting to see a few outreach initiatives. I just don't think they're as strong as they should be.
And there are some unconventional thinkers that are being brought in and some ideas being explored, such as the one that you mentioned earlier with Hollywood screen writers and producers and directors being brought in to think about those issues. Those are the things that wouldn't have been done prior to September 11th that are now starting to make it into the mainstream but it's certainly not nearly enough.
STEELE: No, now wait a minute. That's absolutely wrong. There are some good people that are being brought in, but that is one Beltway remove. Calling in RAND or Booz Allen to bring in their resident geek does not cut it with me. The Pentagon has suddenly rediscovered that homeland defense should be its number one mission. They have not moved dollar one. They have not come up with concepts, doctrine. They are not changing anything about how they create a homeland defense command that Tom Ridge can take over.
BROWN: About a half minute. Who wants to take the next shot here?
SCHWARTAU: Security awareness. This has got -- a battle that we've all been talking about for an awful long time inside the groups -- whether we're in the box or outside the box. But finally -- we've been preaching for a decade -- this is going to hit folks at home. And it's hitting folks at home right now. Not only from the terrorist attacks we've seen, but from the way the cyberattacks are occurring and are going to increasingly occur. We have to get the folks at home to be aware of it, of what can go wrong and to become part of the solution and not part of the problem.
BROWN: I don't know if the government will call on you guys again, but I will. Thank you very much.
STEELE: The people are what matter.
BROWN: Well, I don't know if I represent them. But I'll call. I hope you'll join us again. You were all terrific today.
STEELE: Thank you.
DEVOST: Thank you.
SCHWARTAU: Thank you.
BROWN: An interesting couple of segments there. Thanks. Just ahead, a relic of the Cold War. Now it's got the toughest job in America's new war, very possibly targeting an American airliner for destruction. NORAD, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: When NORAD -- the North American Aerospace Defense Command -- was established, its mission was simple: it was set up to warn against a sneak attack by Soviet missiles and bombers.
Times change, the world has changed and NORAD's mission has changed a lot since the 11th of September. CNN's Frank Buckley has been looking at the mission. He joins us tonight from outside Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado. Frank, good evening.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. We are at the north portal of the Cheyenne Mountain Operation Center. You go about a third of a mile down into this tunnel here and you get to the blast doors -- blast doors that were designed to protect this facility here from nuclear attack. This, after all, was born during the Cold War era.
Well, NORAD's mission has changed in the post-Cold War era. It has also changed since September 11th. NORAD no longer just looking outward at threats, also now having to force -- to be looking inward.
Today we talked in his first television interview with Ed Eberhart -- he is the general and the commander in chief of NORAD -- about that new mission, and also about the new rules of engagement which give the two generals and an admiral the authority to shoot down a commercial civilian airliner in the most extreme circumstance without getting the authority of the president.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GENERAL ED EBERHART, COMMANDER IN CHIEF, NORAD: In terms of the rules of engagement, we will go to the president, Secretary of Defense for approval to shoot down -- God forbid -- if it ever comes to that. Specifics on -- and if time doesn't allow that, what type of actions we would take I really can't share with you, Frank, because we don't want anybody to exploit our rules of engagement.
But I think it's -- I don't think -- I know it's safe to say that the president and the secretary of defense have given us the latitude to take the action necessary to protect our citizens and our key infrastructure while at the same time precluding fratricide or an accidental engagement.
BUCKLEY: NORAD's mission over more than 40 years has been to protect North America from threats from outside, coming from the air. That seemed to change on September 11. How has that affected the NORAD mission?
EBERHART: It certainly did change on 11 September, tragically. We were looking external. We were protecting our sovereignty from anyone and anything that would try to enter our airspace that was not authorized. We weren't looking internally to things that were already in our airspace and were authorized to be in our airspace.
Since then, probably the biggest change has been the connectivity and the cooperation with the FAA. We are constantly monitoring all the FAA lines, constant chat lines, communication. So we know whenever FAA is experiencing a problem or experiencing a problem with an aircraft, we know as soon as they know. That's a big change. We've increased the number of FAA representatives at our sectors, regions and here in Cheyenne Mountain in the headquarters. We have put what we call air battle managers, but these are professionals that understand -- our AWACS understand, our fighter aircraft understand air-to-air combat. We've put those people at the FAA sectors.
We are now not just looking at radar feeds that look outside the country, we are looking at radar feeds and radar data inside our country.
BUCKLEY: On September 11th, did NORAD receive timely notification from the FAA that there were troubles in the air?
EBERHART: I believe that -- obviously in retrospect and Monday- morning quarterbacking, we would say we did not, because we weren't able to get there. I would say that given what the FAA controllers were seeing on their scopes -- on their radar scopes and encountering, it's something that any and all of us would have probably done exactly what they did.
BUCKLEY: Some people will say that NORAD successfully protected the U.S. from air threats from outside for more than 40 years. On September 11th, it was not able to protect us from within. Do you feel that NORAD in any way failed us?
EBERHART: As you might imagine, Frank, I and I think all the men and women in NORAD have relived those events of September 11th countless times. Both formally and informally, if you will, in terms of critiquing ourselves, critiquing what we were doing, how we were doing it. And every time when we look at our posture in the cuing that we got, it was impossible for us to get to the point of crash in time to change the outcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY: That again was General Ed Eberhart, the commander in chief here at NORAD in the Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center. Some other things put into place since September 11th: additional radar now on the ground, deployed around the U.S. AWACS now flying over the U.S. on loan from NATO. And instead of 20 fighter aircraft on standby around the U.S., now there are 100 aircraft on standby around the U.S. -- Aaron.
BROWN: Frank, thank you. Terrific job on that. It's a very interesting interview. Thank you. Frank Buckley in Colorado tonight. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We leave you the this hour back at ground zero, and we do so for a couple of reasons. That's the scene now as the work goes on and the work's going to stop there shortly. Sunday there will be a memorial service, a family memorial. Not as big, not as grand, as the one at Yankee Stadium. In some ways, if you can imagine it there, more intimate. And we will cover that for you at 2:00 Eastern time. We hope you'll join us. And then earlier this afternoon, we saw something that perhaps those of you who aren't with us in the afternoon did not see. Clearly the rescue workers, the construction workers believed they had found another body. The dog was brought in to work the area. And again, there is this meticulous effort made -- and this goes on every day -- to find whatever they can and return it -- return that person to the family so they can be buried properly. Ground zero today. We will update the latest developments in America's new war in just a moment.
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