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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
America's New War: The Anthrax Investigation
Aired October 29, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again, everyone.
Well, another week, another threat. It's almost as if the terrorists were worried we would be bored by anthrax by now. You probably heard that Attorney General John Ashcroft stepped before the microphones today to say the government has received credible threats of yet another possible terrorist attack. No details offered, because he said no details known. And he added he hoped all Americans would carry on their lives normally.
Am I missing something here? The danger, or one of the dangers, and no doubt Mr. Ashcroft and his lieutenants get it, is the boy who cried wolf syndrome. At what point do people stop taking the warnings seriously? It sure feels like damned if you do and damned if you don't, and so he did. And we'll look tonight at what the country does when the attorney general says go on a heightened state of alert.
Then came this. Less than two hours ago, a plane en route from New York to Dallas diverted to Dulles Airport in the Washington area and evacuated, after a threatening note was found. At this point, we hear it was a hoax. We'll update the story momentarily.
And this one might have been the lead. It's hard to believe it's not. The Hart Senate office building will take nearly three weeks to make safe again -- one anthrax letter apparently responsible. Traces also found in the State Department, but that didn't stop the president from speaking there today on African trade, trying to show that terrorism has not completely hijacked his agenda.
And at the same time, the president's father was in Chicago to say that terrorists had failed, reopening the nation's tallest building, the observation deck of the Sear's Tower. A vision that hasn't been seen since September 11th, a stunning view of the windy city from 110 stories up.
Well, we hope that the Former President Bush is right. It's not our place to say. Our place is to report on everything being done by the country to stop the terrorists, and everything the terrorists are doing to prevail. And there is a lot of both to deal with tonight.
We'll get to the details in a few moments. But first, as always, we begin with the headlines. Our Senior White House correspondent John King, who broke the Ashcroft announcement this afternoon. John, stole your headline. What's the second line?
JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, they are well aware here at the White House when they issued such an alert, warning of the possibility of new terrorist strikes, they are guaranteed to add to the jitters of an already nervous nation. But senior officials tell us tonight the president felt he had no choice.
They say this information comes from several intelligence sources, that it is both credible and timely, and that it warns of the possibility of new terrorist strikes here in the United States within the next several days.
BROWN: John, back with you in a moment.
Then there is that plane that was diverted to Dulles in Washington. CNN Kathleen Koch, working that story -- Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it was a combination of fear, caution and this threatening note, that brought 141 passengers and a crew of 10 to the ground prematurely, landing not at Dallas-Ft. Worth Airport, but at Dulles Airport in suburban Virginia. All, again, because of a hoax.
BROWN: More on that coming up.
And then, making the Hart Senate office building safe again, this clean up is going to be very complicated. Kate Snow, the headline there.
KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the building is 10 million cubic feet in size, and the EPA thinks they figured out now how to clean it up. They'll use a yellowish green gas, displacing 50 senators or so. Another two weeks.
BROWN: Thank you, Kate. We'll be back with all of you. As well, we'll also check into Afghanistan coming up a little bit later in the program, also.
But we begin with the latest alert from the FBI, the second formal alert since September 11 that the government has issued. The first time came around the time that the anthrax started spreading, but no one is saying those two things are related, which is part of the problem. What is known is scary, and what is unknown seems vast.
Back to the White House and senior White House correspondent, John King -- John.
KING: Aaron, in the president's own words today, once again demonstrating the very delicate balance Mr. Bush is facing, on the one handy he urged Americans to go about their everyday business, but on the other hand, the government did issue this new alert tonight. And the president said -- quote -- "our enemies still hate us. Every American is a soldier. Every citizen has a role in this fight."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): The new alert is based on intelligence information senior administration officials call not only credible, but stark and compelling.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There may be additional terrorist attacks within the United States and against United States interests over the next week.
KING: The intelligence is not specific as to targets or the type of attack. But officials tell CNN it comes from several different sources, and it's not related to the current anthrax scare. This October 11th FBI alert already urged 18,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide to be on high alert.
Those sources say the president approved a new alert to those agencies, and a public announcement, after reviewing the latest intelligence data.
ASHCROFT: We ask for the patience and cooperation of the American people, if and when they encounter additional measures undertaken by local law enforcement or federal law enforcement authorities, and others who are charged with securing the safety of the public.
KING: Mr. Bush convened the first formal meeting of his new homeland security council, and said its first mission was to review immigration policy, including the student visa program at least two of the suspected hijackers used to enter the United States.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The vast majority of people who come to America are really good, decent people, people who are proud to have here. There are some who are evil. And our job now is to find the evil ones and to bring them to justice. To disrupt anybody who might have designs on hurting, further hurting Americans.
KING: The president already had signed off on the new terrorism alert when he called this meeting to order.
BUSH: It's going to take a while to achieve our objective.
KING: But the public announcement was delayed several hours so that Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge could notify the nation's governors. White House chief of staff Andy Card called key members of Congress, and federal agencies responsible for airports, power systems and border patrols were put on higher alert.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Administration officials tonight declining to say just where this information came from, to reveal the sources in any way. But one senior official tonight says you can connect the dots if you want. You know we are watching these people all around the world. What the president saw today made him worried. He felt he had to tell the American people -- Aaron. BROWN: It is -- I guess if it wasn't real life and so dangerous, it would be a fascinating conundrum. Because on the one hand, they all know -- the terrorists all know, or the Al Qaeda all know that they're being eavesdropped upon. And they could be doing this just as a fake.
KING: Exactly right, Aaron.
You will recall a few weeks back, we were discussing sensitive source information, officials telling us that they had been monitoring activities of Al Qaeda associates overseas. They got worried, they saw suspicious activities that reminded them of the events just prior to September 11th, so they issued some warnings then. There was a warning, now 18 days ago.
Certainly the attorney general was asked tonight when does the boy who cried wolf syndrome take effect? And he just brushed aside the question. And we are told by senior officials, they understand that this is one case where your government hopes it is wrong.
But the president tonight decided he had no choice but to make this alert, and when they made it they decided this time to do it in person, in public by the attorney general himself.
BROWN: And they've just clearly made a decision that if they're going to make a mistake, they're going to err on the side of getting a message out. And I mean, really out. Not just to police agencies, but out.
KING: When it comes to sharing this information, you're absolutely right. The president himself saying that every American is a foot soldier. When he said that, he knew this alert was coming. It was a few hours later when the announcement came.
But they have been criticized for how they handled the anthrax information. When it comes to scares, once they view the information as credible, they will release it. And in this case, we're told it's also quite timely -- warning of an attack possible within the next several days. They decided they need to do this and they wanted to do it with a bang.
BROWN: John, thanks. John King at the White House tonight. This announcement from the attorney general was certainly jarring.
And then we got this just a few hours later: A plane traveling from New York to Dallas was diverted to Dulles Airport, outside of Washington, D.C., after a threatening note was found on board. The passengers evacuated the hard way, using the emergency chutes. And we now believe that it was a hoax.
We don't normally report on hoaxes, but obviously this has gotten so much attention. And seeing as it came right against the attorney general's announcement, it's also impossible for us to ignore.
Kathleen Koch has been working the story, and she joins us again -- Kathleen.
KOCH: Aaron, at this point we don't have any information as to who may have placed this particular note. It was indeed a note that was found onboard this flight, an American Airlines flight, a 757, as you said, bound from La Guardia to Dallas Fort Worth airport.
There was a note that a female passenger found in a seat back on that flight, and we don't know when it was put on the plane. We don't know the exact content of the note. But obviously, as you said, in light of what the attorney general announced today, no one wanted to take any chances. So American Airlines executives made the decision to bring that aircraft down at Dulles Airport in suburban Virginia.
People were injured when they had to deplane down these emergency chutes. But obviously, in case there had actually been some sort of weapon or bomb, or who knows what on board, they could take no chances. So we have some reports, and perhaps a couple of passengers may have actually been taken to the hospital. There were 141 on board, and a crew of 10.
At this point, they will eventually be making their way on to Dallas on other flights. We're not sure if it's going to be yet tonight, or if some of them may spend the night in this area. But what FBI officials are telling us, is that they have been having numerous hoaxes like this in recent days and, Aaron, unfortunately, this is just one more.
BROWN: One thing that you said, I want to make sure I understood. The decision to bring the plane down at Dulles is a decision made by the airline itself, it's not made by the FBI or the FAA, or a federal agency, but the airline itself?
KOCH: At this point, that is our understanding. It is the airline itself that is responsible for its crews. We don't know if they brought the FAA or the FBI into it at that point. But clearly, everyone is really erring on the side of caution right now.
BROWN: Seems like a reasonable strategy right now. Kathleen Koch, thank you for that. Been a tough evening there.
Again, back to the attorney general. There's no way to specifically know what the terrorists have in mind, and we're certainly not going to guess. But we do know that tomorrow in this city, in New York, two major sporting events will attract between 75 and 80,000 people. Michael Jordan returns to the NBA over at Madison Square Garden, and then game three of the World Series, Yankee Stadium in the Bronx.
CNN's Gary Tuchman is in the Bronx tonight at the stadium -- Gary?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, tomorrow night in the city that has suffered so much, a very festive night on tap. Here at Yankee Stadium 10 miles from the World Trade Center, more than 50,000 people will come to game three of the World Series, but the first game to be held here in New York City. And then about 20,000 people will come four miles from the World Trade Center at Madison Square Garden to see Michael Jordan's return to basketball, the first regulation game of the season -- the Knicks and the Washington Wizards. So in light of the announcement by the attorney general, what security precautions are being taken?
Well, we called security officials here at Yankee Stadium and at Madison Square Garden. As it turns out, we informed them about it. We called them shortly after the announcement. They didn't know about it. They did say once they learn about it, once they learn more about it, they will not be talking much about the security precautions.
As we speak, they're getting ready for tomorrow's game. Security precautions already in place from September 11th include body pat- downs, no bags being brought in, electronic wands being used and plainclothes law enforcement officials in the stands.
Now, security officials are being tight-lipped, but the players are not. A short time ago we talked with two of the Arizona Diamondbacks. We talked with Reggie Sanders and Craig Counsell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REGGIE SANDERS, ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS: It was scary just coming into New York. We know that this -- our World Series is such a big event. And they like to attack big events, you know, and that is definitely something that weighed in the back of my mind. And I'm quite sure that all the forces will be out there to protect all of us, and so we are just going to go on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRAIG COUNSELL, ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS: I don't think we can live our lives in fear. And I just -- you know, I'm looking so forward to tomorrow night that I'm not going to let anything like that even come close to ruining tomorrow night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: And to add to all this, President Bush is considering coming to tomorrow night's World Series Game. Suffice it to say, tomorrow will be the most security conscience night in Yankee Stadium history -- Aaron.
BROWN: Gary, thanks. Gary Tuchman, out at the stadium tonight.
A bit more now on the challenge that is facing both the intelligence communities and the law enforcement communities here in New York and across the country as well. Former New York City police commissioner and head of the U.S. customs service, Ray Kelly, joins us tonight. And in Washington, we're joined by former director of the CIA, James Woolsey.
It's nice to see you both again. Mr. Woolsey, let me start with you if I may. Without specifically knowing the kind of intelligence that's coming in, what would be a guess of -- is it eavesdropping, is it human intelligence? What kinds of things would you guess they are getting?
JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, they had some very good signals intelligence on bin Laden back in '98, and then it was published that we were listening in on his satellite telephone conversations, and so that went away. So it's more likely than anything to be probably reports from friendly intelligence services that have human agents somewhere in and around Al Qaeda. That's just a guess, but that would be my best guess.
BROWN: And now, the friendly intelligence service would be like Pakistan in this case?
WOOLSEY: Don't know. Don't know. Conceivably most anybody in the Middle East that might have access to someone either in Al Qaeda, or someone that they are talking to.
BROWN: And how do you process stuff like this? At what point does it become something you act on, or credible? Do you need a lot of it, or do you -- one really good source do it for you, or does it vary case by case?
WOOLSEY: Well, one really go source could do it. But the problem is often you'll get a warning about a time that something is going to happen soon, but nothing else. Or you will get a warning that something is going to happen with aircraft, but no time or place. And that's the way intelligence is. It's piecing together parts of a jigsaw puzzle that don't really often seem to fit together.
BROWN: Sounds like a fun way to make a living.
WOOLSEY: It's tough.
BROWN: Sounds like it.
Mr. Kelly, given the state of alert the nation is in now, how much tighter, when an announcement like this comes out, can it get?
RAYMOND KELLY, SENIOR MANAGING DIRECTOR, BEAR STEARNS: Well, as far as law enforcement is concerned, not much tighter. Clearly, you see here in New York, police officers on virtually every corner. Obviously smaller towns and states have added pressures on them, pressures on their budget. They're working overtime. Are they protecting key facilities, that sort of thing.
So I think this is really a message to the public in general, saying that we are at war. You have been drafted in this war, whether you like it or not, and you are going to have to be as alert at you can possibly can be.
BROWN: It's interesting that you mention New York. Before this came out, as I was coming in today on 11th Avenue, not far from here, they were checking every truck that went by before it gets into the tunnel. If you were running the police department in, let's say, I don't know, Saint Paul, what would you do that you hadn't been doing? I mean, some sort of mid-size city that hadn't suffered the way that New York or Washington had?
KELLY: I think you'd be doing some of these things, but obviously your resources are limited. And that's the real pressure that's out there. They have to do something. They want to do the prudent thing, but they don't have the manpower that the city like New York has. So there's a lot of pressure on localities to do something. Yet they just don't have the resources.
BROWN: What other kinds of things then that would keep you up at night? What are the things that you're worried about? Water supply, or nuclear plants sort of obvious. What are the things that might be less obvious to people?
KELLY: Transportation systems in general. Clearly, trains, subways are an area of concern. You have heard that from a lot of citizens.
BROWN: Shopping malls make you nervous?
KELLY: You know, we can sit here and we can think of a thousand things that make us nervous. There's no specific information, you heard from the attorney general.
BROWN: That's the problem. I mean, how do you protect against no specific information?
KELLY: It's difficult. And I think again, it's a question of having people's sensitivities as high as they can be. We've all been enlisted, if you will, in this battle. We can't do much more than that. And again, we have this other message of going forward with your life, but being alert. It's a difficult time.
BROWN: Mr. Woolsey, I asked John King earlier, let me ask you the same question. Is it possible that who is ever responsible for these things puts out these rumors to see how the country reacts, that there's really no plan at all, that it's just a very smart faint?
WOOLSEY: It's possible. A real problem is that we are a nation of networks, whether it's the Internet or financial transfers or oil and gas pipelines, or food distribution or the electricity grid. And none of these has been put together really with a single thought being given to defending against terrorism, against intentional interference.
They're pretty good against natural disasters or random failures of components, but not against intentional inference. We've seen two of them used now, air transport and the mails, in order to terrorize. And we will probably see others.
We have to do two things. One is that we have to systematically fix these so that we have a lot more resilience in until all of these networks. And we also have to go to the source overseas, whether it's just the Taliban and Al Qaeda, or if it's Iraq, and take out the people who are doing this to us. We have to do both.
BROWN: And, Mr. Kelly, just on a different subject, because you and I talked about this just a couple moments ago before I came out here. You've been a law enforcement guy your whole life, pretty much. In a moment like this, in what is the biggest law enforcement moment probably in our lifetimes, do you miss it? Do you miss being in the front line of it, making decisions?
KELLY: Sure. I think anybody who has been in it for a long time has that urge to maybe to get back in when the country is sort of at a crisis stage. So yeah, I have talked to other people who left law enforcement, and they feel the same way. They want to do something. They want to kind of fight back in some way. And if you're not in government, it's difficult to do that.
BROWN: And, Mr. Woolsey, the CIA director is an awfully tough job. Do you miss it at all, in a moment like this? Do you wish were you there making decisions and calling the shots?
WOOLSEY: Oh, I liked the CIA and I liked the job, but it's all really governed by your relationship with your boss, the president. And mine can best be summed up by the fact that when that airplane crashed into the south front of the White House in the fall of '94, the White House staff joke was, "that must be Woolsey still trying to get an appointment."
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: It's tough down there, sir. Thank you for joining us. Nice to see you again. Mr. Kelly, it's always nice to see you. Thank you. Thank you both.
More on homeland security tomorrow morning. Actually, we'll have more on it here tonight. But a program reminder. Tom Ridge, the man who is in charge of homeland security, what a job that is, just before 8:00, 7:50 Eastern time here on CNN with Paula Zahn, Tom Ridge tomorrow morning.
When we come back: It would be absurd under any other circumstance. Even now, it's almost unbelievable. A Senate office building, an entire building being sealed off and, for want of a better word, bug bombed big time when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: On to anthrax now. The terrorists, whoever they are, foreign and domestic, who are sending it out, clearly intended to injure and kill people. And they have succeeded, though the numbers, fortunately, remain small. Maybe their biggest success, if you can use that phrase, is the utter disruption in the nation's capital.
One extraordinary example today, the plan to make the Hart Senate office building safe again. That's where the letter to Senator Tom Daschle was opened two weeks ago. This plan is extraordinary in its scope, and it tells you everything you need to know about the danger of those anthrax spores. CNN's Kate Snow has been working that today. Kate, good evening again.
SNOW: Good evening, Aaron.
Last week Senator Tom Daschle was saying that maybe they could just seal off one corner of the Hart Senate office building and just go at that to get rid of the anthrax. Now the EPA is saying no, we better deal with the whole building all at once. It will be quicker. It will be faster and it will be easier.
They removed samples of carpet, photos and documents in order to test them and make sure that they could all withstand the procedure they're about to do.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): After two weeks of environmental testing and screening, the next step is cleaning up. As long as it passes a peer review by other scientists, the EPA plans to fumigate the entire Hart building with chlorine dioxide gas.
SEN. HARRY REID (D), NEVADA: This is the only method that will preserve important papers, documents, while protecting the senators, their staffs and the public.
SNOW: Wildly used to disinfect public drinking water, chlorine dioxide is a yellowish green gas with an odor like chlorine. EPA officials say it's also been used by the Agriculture Department to kill a bacteria in the same family as anthrax, but using it on anthrax itself is new territory.
The agency says lab tests this week indicate it will work.
DR. PAUL SCHAUDIES, EPA CONSULTANT: It reacts with the proteins, so it will take that spore that's now a now a hardball and essentially make a whiffle ball out of it, so it can no longer germinate.
SNOW: It's a huge job, fumigating 10 million cubic feet of space with a large central atrium. After sealing the building with plastic, experts will suck out all the air through the heat and air conditioning vents, pause it through chlorine dioxide gas, and then pump the air back inside.
When it's over, two sets of tests will make sure all the anthrax is gone.
DR. BETHANY GROHS, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY: One test lets you know whether or not there are still viable spores. So we want to make sure that we have no germination. The other test lets you know there are remnant pieces of the DNA from the spores that were there. So that tells us, yes, they were there, and now they're no longer viable. We have killed them.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SNOW: The entire process will take about two weeks, we are told. Officials say it's not going to hurt anything inside the Hart Senate office building, but just to be safe they're going to send around teams to take out anything they call special artifacts. Of particular concern, Aaron, some artwork on the walls of some of the senator's offices, and one senator's goldfish. Back to you.
BROWN: Do they have -- are they talking, at least, about -- it was the House office building on Friday, the Longworth building on Friday, that also showed contamination in three offices. Is this what is going to be over there, or don't they know yet?
SNOW: They don't know yet. They haven't decided. We asked that question and they say they're still considering various options. There are other ways to do decontamination. It's just that this was deemed to be the best way in the Hart building.
BROWN: And, is anyone concerned about the safety of the chlorine that they're pumping in there, whether that is safe to have around?
SNOW: The chlorine dioxide, they say, experts say is perfectly safe to have around. It's used, as we mentioned, to purify water. It's used in a number of different cases.
They said it fairly quickly within minutes, will dissolve into its core elements, which are non-toxic. And then they also say they are going to be bringing in a system to clean the air, to make sure they get all the gas out of the air. And to do that, they use something very simple. They use vitamin C to clean the air.
BROWN: Goodness. Kate, thanks. Kate Snow on the Hill tonight, on the Hart office building problem -- a two-week minimum problem now.
Today it became official, by the way. Anthrax had infiltrated every branch of the U.S. government. Traces were found inside the U.S. Supreme Court building. The nine justices convened elsewhere. They'll do the same tomorrow.
Anthrax also found at the State Department. As we learned about a new case of anthrax infection -- two of them, actually, one in New Jersey. In this case, the first person not connected to either the postal service or the media, to develop the disease, in this recent round of anthrax. A lot to keep track of tonight.
Susan Candiotti is trying keep up with it all, and is -- Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron.
The latest terrorist alert comes as the FBI grapples with those key anthrax questions. Who made it and where did it come from?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): At this time, the FBI says it has no reason to believe the new terrorist warning is related to anthrax. That, as more anthrax is found and more people are infected. Traces found in two State Department mail rooms and in a nearby annex. Also discovered, anthrax inside the Supreme Court building. The building had been closed since Friday for checks.
Until more tests are done and the building decontaminated, the Supreme Court is sitting at a federal courthouse a few blocks away. Preliminary tests also turn up anthrax at a building run by the Department of Health and Human Services.
Two new confirmed cases of anthrax infection, both in New Jersey. One, a 51-year-old woman with skin anthrax. She does not work for the post office or the news media. She lives near Hamilton Township, where a second postal worker is confirmed to have inhalation anthrax.
What about the source? Investigators appear no closer to an answer. Did it come from these three known letters, or were there more?
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: This continues to be a very aggressive, ongoing investigation. There are a lot of theories out there. We just need some facts to turn the theory into reality.
CANDIOTTI: They do know the Daschle anthrax contained the additive silica, which experts tell CNN, is commonly available as a drying agent in pellet form like this.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: In powdered form, silica would make anthrax spores dryer and easier to float in air. It's a chemical that is wildly available for commercial purposes. But as one expert tells CNN, anyone using this kind of additive to treat spores and make them easier to spread knows what they're doing -- Aaron.
BROWN: Susan, do they have any idea how this New Jersey woman with no connection to the media or the post office or the postal service came down with anthrax?
CANDIOTTI: Still trying to figure that out. There was some concern that perhaps she had visited that postal facility in question, that mail handling center. But so far, no indication of that either.
BROWN: Susan, thank you. Susan Candiotti in Washington, keeping track of the anthrax investigation.
We'll have the latest on the war when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: On day one of the war Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said we are in this for the long-haul. He and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff said the same thing today, Day 23. We are on track, they said, in the driver's seat, not in a quagmire. Pick your own metaphor. And even if it's all true, it says a lot about the leadership in America's new war: running the battle and managing the expectations. Here's CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN ARMED FORCES CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Armed with more video evidence of successful strikes against Taliban targets, the Pentagon argues it's not getting bogged down in Afghanistan.
GENERAL RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We're pretty much on our plan. And -- and we are in the driver's seat. We are proceeding at our pace. We are not proceeding at the Taliban's pace or Al Qaeda's pace.
MCINTYRE: These before-and-after satellite photos show a complex of military maintenance buildings near Kabul, reduced to rubble by U.S. smart bombs Friday -- one of dozens of targets hit in recent days, with plenty of targets remaining.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We have damaged and destroyed a number of tanks, a number of artillery pieces, a number of armored personnel carriers and a number of troops. Are there leaders mixed in there? Yes. At what level? Who knows? They are middle to upper-high. But to our knowledge, none -- none of the very top six, eight, 10 people have been included in that number.
MCINTYRE: And Pentagon officials now confirm that air strikes, like this one against an armored vehicle defending Mazar-e-Sharif, are at times being accomplished with the help of U.S. special forces troops on the ground with the Northern Alliance, who are using laser designators to guide U.S. pilots to their targets.
But the outnumbered and under-equipped Northern Alliance says the Taliban has not been sufficiently weakened by U.S. bombing for them to move against them. With winter snows expected soon, which traditionally freeze battle lines until the spring, the U.S. has begun air dropping ammunition from C-130s to the Northern Alliance, but the Alliance is having trouble getting the bullets to its frontline troops.
RUMSFELD: They're moving them frequently, not with vehicles, but with horses and donkeys and mules, and it takes time to get them unpacked and moved out to where the people are.
MCINTYRE: A better option would be for the United States to secure a base in northern Afghanistan, where food and supplies could be flown in -- something Pentagon planners are considering.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Meanwhile, Pentagon sources say despite a public apology, the United States intentionally bombed a Red Cross warehouse in Kabul for a second time to deny food to the Taliban. Nevertheless, senior Pentagon officials insist it was a mistake, that after the first bombing the warehouse should have been taken off the target list.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: In a way, America's new war began two days before September 11, with the assassination of Northern Alliance leader Ahmed Shah Massoud. It took a turn for the worse last Friday when the Taliban captured and executed Abdul Haq.
And now come the questions. The questions about the wisdom of the anti-Taliban leader's mission into Afghanistan, and questions about whether or not his advice on how to defeat Taliban in the first place fell on deaf ears in Washington. More from CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Peshawar, Pakistan, friends, relatives and one-time comrades in arms pray for Abdul Haq, the anti-Taliban leader caught and executed in Afghanistan last week. In Washington, his friend, a former national security adviser, charges the U.S. did not do enough to protect him.
ROBERT MCFARLANE, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: He had worked for a long time to organize colleagues who were ready to begin operations to sabotage and attack against Taliban headquarters and ultimately to identify Bin Laden. But we offered no help and he was captured.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did we offer no help?
MCFARLANE: Incompetence.
ENSOR: McFarlane's charge angers U.S. intelligence officials, who say after Haq called on satellite phone, a CIA-run Predator drone spy plane, equipped with Hellfire missiles, did fire on Haq's Taliban attackers, killing some but not all of them.
But a heavy-set man missing a foot in a group of 19 people with only four guns had no chance, U.S. intelligence officials say, and they add he ignored direct CIA advice not to go into Afghanistan so unprepared and lightly armed. In the days before his death, it was Abdul Haq who complained that the U.S. was ignoring his advice not to bomb, but for building support in his Pashtun area for overthrowing the Taliban.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When these strikes started, then it them -- these Taliban who are martyrs made them in a weaker position, it made the hard-line Taliban in stronger position. And plus when the civilians get hurt, and then they realize like whatever is their Taliban was saying about the U.S., maybe they were right.
ENSOR: Haq argued that U.S. bombing of Afghanistan was actually helping, not hurting, the Taliban in its efforts to rally support. Some analysts say his execution without trial, however, has angered many Pashtuns and could backfire on the Taliban.
AHMED RASHID, AUTHOR: They are very likely to take revenge against this in a tribal fashion, not necessarily a purely political fashion. So I think Taliban have not only done something very horrific but also they have invited a lot of trouble on themselves.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: The killing has also spurred a sharp debate here in Washington, with U.S. officials arguing that Abdul Haq was courageous but foolhardy, while McFarlane and some others argue that he was just the sort of Afghan leader with whom the U.S. should have worked, and that he should have been better protected than he was.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Coming up, nuclear weapons in an unstable part of the world. We will talk about it with investigative reporter Seymour Hersh in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Submerged in the events of the war, but certainly not lost on the world, this: Pakistan is a nuclear power and it is at odds -- as it has been for a very long time -- with another nuclear power, India.
Now add to that a pair of Pakistani nuclear scientists who were questioned late last week about their pro-Taliban sympathies. Nobody's saying yet that they passed on nuclear secrets, and in fact they were released for lack of evidence.
But it certainly raises questions for our next guest, Seymour Hersh, who has been looking into Pakistani and Indian nuclear arsenals for the "New Yorker" magazine. Mr. Hersh joins us from Washington tonight. Sy, it's nice to see you. What do you make of two nuclear scientists who were questioned? What does it tell you?
SEYMOUR HERSH, "NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: Well, what -- actually, what I'm going to tell you comes to me from federal authorities who say that it's literally the tip of an iceberg.
The most important thing about the Pakistani nuclear atomic energy committee was that those guys, traditionally, in the '70s and '80s, as the Paks were making a bomb were the most loyal, most nationalistic, most fervent partisans in terms of pro-Pakistan. That was their whole nexus. Very, very patriotic.
And to find that some of them from inside this select group are choosing fundamentalism -- religion -- over the state is very alarming. People have said it's the tip of an iceberg, as I said, in the sense that there others inside the atomic energy commission with knowledge of the information and secrets that are obviously very pro- Taliban.
So we don't know exactly what is going on. We don't know who supports who inside Pakistan when it comes to nuclear weapons. And we don't know if it's not possible -- I'm talking about the American government -- that a group of dissidents at any time -- that is fundamentalists -- could grab a couple of warheads, grab an airplane -- they use F-16s for deliveries -- grab a missile system.
I'm not saying it's going to happen tomorrow, but if the bombing continues as it has -- and as you heard from the earlier sequence with Bud McFarlane -- the more you bomb, the more you alienate the moderates from the radicals, the more you bomb, the more you make it more difficult for Musharraf, the president of Pakistan, to main control -- to maintain control over the fundamentalists in his own government.
BROWN: Is he in control of own intelligence service?
HERSH: Well, most people think not as much as we would like to think he -- we want him to be in control, but the odds are very high. The ISI is certainly very, very fundamental in its core.
They consider the Taliban -- in the article I wrote for the "New Yorker" I quote one Pakistani diplomat to say that for the ISI, the Taliban are like their boys, their children, because the Taliban, which didn't come in -- you know, the members -- the core members of the Taliban were the people -- same people fighting the war against Russians that we supported and the ISI supported in 1980s.
And so out of this emerged this very hard-line fundamentalist group with longstanding ties on religion to the ISI. And how deep and how extensive they are, time will see.
BROWN: And the fact that they are of -- I don't want to say suspect, maybe that's a little strong -- a little questionable here, how does that affect what the Americans are trying do in Afghanistan?
HERSH: Well, what it does, it scares the hell out of a lot of people. And one of the reasons I was able to do the kind of reporting I'm doing is a lot of people who regional experts in the community, in the government on South Asia, people in understand India and Pakistan -- as you know we have had blowups.
They came close in 1990. There was almost a war that we thought could lead to a nuclear exchange. They hate each other. And by the way, one thing the fundamentalists, the Taliban and the Pakistanis and the military all have in common is that they all hate India. And that's pretty scary.
In India, I think we are underestimating the extent to which India is increasingly angry about what is going on in Pakistan and the growth of fundamentalism. As you know, there's been many more attacks on the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir, that country long in dispute. They came close to war over Kashmir in 1990. In 1999 they came close to war.
If a war breaks out, God know what's going to happen. And again, as I wrote, Aaron, we have even set up -- we have a special little covert team of highly-skilled Americans who are able to go under cover into countries and check out nuclear weapons.
And I write that they have been called on alert and they are doing contingency planning in case they have to go in -- into Pakistan and disarm some Pakistani weapons. They have 24 or maybe more weapons. India has certainly as many or more. And they are very unstable and we really don't know exactly how it plays out.
BROWN: Sy Hersh's article is "New Yorker" magazine. If you want to know more, that would be a good place to go. It's always nice to see you. Thanks for joining us tonight.
HERSH: Glad to be here.
BROWN: Thank you. When we come back, how cities and towns around the country are preparing for what we all hope will not happen this week. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: When the attorney general steps before microphone and talks as he did today about an unspecified but credible terrorist threat to the country, you begin thinking about New York or Washington, maybe L.A. But in fact, towns big and small all across the country are being asked to prepare. They are being asked to -- their police officers work more overtime and patrol their bridges, their streets, the whole thing more carefully. It's all expensive. None of it is easy.
We are joined tonight by a couple of people who know this firsthand. Moses Ector is the newly-named director of homeland security in DeKalb County, Georgia, outside Atlanta, and with us here in New York Thomas McDermott, who is the mayor of Milburn Short Hills, New Jersey, pretty much in the shadow of the Trade Center. It's nice to have you both.
Here, Mr. McDermott, let me start with you. Is your city going broke trying to afford the extra security?
MAYOR THOMAS MCDERMOTT, MILBURN SHORT HILLS, NEW JERSEY: No, it hasn't so far. What we do is our office of management -- office of emergency management has really coordinated efforts with state police, federal, and county officials. And what ends up happening is we try to go out and get reimbursements from the federal government when these things happen. But so far we have been running overtime, but it hasn't been a significant drain so far.
BROWN: You got the warning today?
MCDERMOTT: Yes, we did.
BROWN: And what is the first thing you did?
MCDERMOTT: Well, we had been on heightened alert since 11th of September, but we were -- we received from the state police in New Jersey information that we have gone to a higher level. So what we have done is increased patrols, put more men out there, hit some of the areas that we have been watching all along and just try to have a bigger presence than we've had before.
BROWN: And Mr. Ector, down in outside of Atlanta, did you get the warning this evening?
MOSES ECTOR, GEORGIA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: Yes, we did.
BROWN: And what did you do?
ECTOR: Well, of course our police chief -- I spoke with the police chief in DeKalb County a few moments ago and our officers are on high alert, as rest of the nation. And we are just trying to be proactive and hopefully nothing will happen, but we want to be ready if something does happen.
BROWN: What does that mean, you are trying to be pro-active?
ECTOR: Well, we did want to wait and allow something to happen and we not have an effort of coordinating our water works, our fire department, coordinating the state and federal resources. And that was the reason that this position was created, so that the CEO and the chief of police would have one key person that would coordinate their activities, have the sensitive information, share the intelligence with the other municipalities that are within DeKalb County. We're a county...
BROWN: I'm sorry.
ECTOR: Of 700,000 people.
BROWN: Of how many, sir?
ECTOR: We are a county of approximately 725,000 people.
BROWN: Three quarters of a million. Do you have enough money to do what you need to do?
ECTOR: No, we don't. Hopefully, we are going to be reimbursed, as the mayor said, for our activities when needed. At the present time we have been paying the overtime, protecting CDC, which is in our area, as well as our water works. We also in DeKalb have the second largest -- busiest airport in the state of Georgia that we must protect.
BROWN: You have a big mall in -- in Short Hills, I know.
MCDERMOTT: Yes, we do.
BROWN: Does that make you nervous?
MCDERMOTT: We have had some issues there over the past couple weeks with bomb scares. It does make us nervous. But we are -- we have been prepared, and we've been called in and so far, fortunately, there hasn't been any incident. But I think we have seen more with the anthrax scare than that with different places.
BROWN: It's -- it's hard enough to worry about the -- all the things that might possibly happen, and you get these warnings and you have to respond to them. Are you in Short Hills being -- I don't want to say overwhelmed, almost overwhelmed by hoaxes and that sort of thing?
MCDERMOTT: Well, fortunately, everything has been so far. And that's what you hope for. We had...
BROWN: But they all take time to investigate.
MCDERMOTT: They all take time. Exactly. We do it. We have trained personnel that do it, that are uniformed police and fire. And also we will call in the county and the state for any assistance as far as bombs or haz-mat issues in terms of anthrax. But we have been investigating everything and every day there is something new.
BROWN: Is that right?.
MCDERMOTT: Yes.
BROWN: Literally every day.
MCDERMOTT: Every day.
BROWN: And Mr. Ector, what are the specific areas, if you can, in DeKalb County that you worry most about? You mentioned the CDC, the airport. What else do you think about?
ECTOR: Of course we think about water works. We have water works that's very open. We have to protect them, ensure that at all times they are safe.
BROWN: How do you do that?
ECTOR: Well, we use manpower. We use police officers. We use our present staff at the Water Department. That's how we have been doing it so far.
BROWN: How different is -- if I just drove through your county tomorrow, would it be noticeable how -- how high the security is?
ECTOR: It -- it would be noticeable at CDC, it would be noticeable at the airport, it would be noticeable at those places that we feel that need additional security. It would be -- you would see a heightened alert at our shopping malls, because we are very concerned about any place that there is large gathering. Yes, you would notice in some instances a higher alert.
BROWN: And in Short Hills -- if I drove down the streets of Short Hills tomorrow, could I tell something was up?
MCDERMOTT: No, you couldn't. And we are looking at it from a different perspective. We have a 20,000-person residence -- there are 20,000 people in Short Hills. And we have tried to calm these citizens to live their lives normally. We are protecting different areas and doing certain things on a daily basis that they might not see, like protecting our...
BROWN: I can't -- I don't mean to interrupt -- well, I clearly do mean to interrupt, but you know what I mean -- that there are many people in Short Hills who didn't know somebody... who knew somebody who died.
MCDERMOTT: Absolutely.
BROWN: ... who died in the Trade Center across the river.
MCDERMOTT: Absolutely. We all did. We all had friends, and there's no question about it. I think what you have seen, and we have -- in high-profile areas, we have a larger presence than we have had before. But I think we have also tried to get people back to as normal a life as possible. And the security is there.
I keep reassuring them and re-reassuring them that they are safe, their children are safe. The water supply is safe. And all the other little things that you don't think of, we are there monitoring to make sure that there isn't a problem.
BROWN: Well, I hope there is never a problem.
MCDERMOTT: We're hoping so too.
BROWN: We have had enough. Mr. McDermott, nice to meet you, Mayor. Mr. Ector, nice to talk to you down in DeKalb County, Georgia, today. Good luck to you, too.
ECTOR: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you both. And we will go back to ground zero in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We want to spend the last 90 or so this hour back at ground zero. We go there for no specific reason, perhaps, just as a reminder. Sometimes in what's called the fog of war we lose sight of the important things, and here is one. Seven weeks ago tomorrow, terrorists took down the Trade Center towers and killed 5,000 people. Most will never have a body to bury. None of them will ever know life the way they knew it before.
And then this evening we were reminded of something else, that every now and then there are these small victories. About 8:00 tonight, they found the body of a firefighter. How many more firefighters, how many more people down there to be found? But they pulled one out and that's one more body that will be buried properly in what was the ruins of the Trade Center.
Someone suggested that people -- to me today that people might forget how we got to this point. That moment. It is unimaginable to me that that could happen. We will update the latest developments and more, after this short break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We met in '94. My first job. The first day I was there she just came up to me, introduced herself and took me out to lunch. And from then on we became like best friends. Her daughter was Lindsey and she is going to be four in January. She is very smart. She already reads like first grade level. She's not even in school yet. She told me once that that was the best thing that happened to her, you know, was having Lindsey. That was her -- like her comfort.
She has asking -- been asking for her mother. Every time the phone rings, "Is that mommy?" And then when you say no, she gets really upset and starts crying or she'll just go over into a corner and starts moping and you can tell that she is in her own world thinking about something. She loved her mother and her mother loved her.
She was looking forward to, you know, taking her daughter to Disney World in two years. And I had just finished coming from there so she was asking me questions on what did I see that would be good for Lindsey and things like that. And she was happy. Maybe I will take her to Disney World when she turns 6 years old now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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