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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
America's New War: U.S. Helicopter Crash Lands in Afghanistan
Aired November 02, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer, sitting in tonight for Aaron Brown.
We spent the day waiting for something to happen, worrying that terror would strike one of the landmark bridges of California. We're glad to say we have nothing traumatic to report.
But there was a very disturbing event today that injured Americans, almost 8,000 miles away from the Golden Gate Bridge. Tonight we got word that a U.S. special forces helicopter went down in Afghanistan. A second chopper rescued the crew and four of them are being tonight for injuries that aren't thought to be life threatening. The details in just a moment.
But back to the West Coast. No terror to report, as we said, but plenty of anxiety all around. President Bush delivered the understatement of the day: "It's not good news for America." The news: that employers shed more jobs last month than at any time since 1980. That's when Jimmy Carter was president.
And the last thing you want to see in a place created, defined by violence, more violence. Firefighters fighting police, no less. A lot more on the battle being waged today over ground zero.
Also tonight, a look at whether high technology could have prevented September 11th, and whether it could prevent something like it from ever happening again. And the fate of American flags pulled out of the rubble of the World Trade Center.
That's all coming up, but we want to first check in with our reporters around the globe for a quick look at the top stories and the headlines. We begin with CNN military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, give us the headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, tonight, Wolf, the U.S. military is fighting an even tougher than the Taliban: bad weather. It is responsible for the crash of one U.S. special operations helicopter in Afghanistan. All the crew members evacuated safely by a second chopper, but four were injured.
And also, an unmanned aerial vehicle also down in Afghanistan tonight. Again, apparently a victim of foul weather. That could be more of a problem as winter approaches.
BLITZER: Another view from Islamabad, Pakistan. CNN international correspondent Sheila MacVicar is there -- Sheila.
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Wolf. Weeks of bombing, increasingly intensive bombing, now focusing on Taliban front lines. And in spite of what the Pentagon would like to see, there is no evidence yet, say analysts, that the Taliban are crumbling. We'll take a look at why.
BLITZER: Sheila, we'll be back to you.
Let's now take a look at the terror threats on the West Coast. CNN's Brian Cabell is at the Golden Gate Bridge out in San Francisco. Brian, give us the headline.
BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, increased securities on the bridges in California today, increased anxiety among many motorists, but the traffic, it flowed smoothly all day long -- Wolf.
BLITZER: We'll be back to you, Brian, as well. And let's head south to Los Angeles. That's where CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is standing by -- Thelma.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, from the port of Los Angeles I'll tell you what commuters have to say about crossing over high profile bridges in California. Some say they haven't given it a second thought at all, while others say they're definitely taking the long way home -- Wolf.
BLITZER: OK, Thelma. We'll be back to you of course as well.
But first let's go over to the Pentagon, where they're dealing tonight with the kind of close call that brings a chill to commanders when they hear it, and to us when we have to report it: a U.S. helicopter down in enemy territory. As we said, a very close call but not a disaster. It could of course have been much worse.
CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre has been working the story since it broke earlier this evening -- Jamie.
MCINTYRE: Well, at about 10:30 this night tonight local time in Afghanistan, a pair of U.S. military helicopters flying to an undisclosed location in Afghanistan in bad weather, when one of the helicopters, apparently because of the weather, went down. It had a crash landing.
The second helicopter that was traveling nearby was able to quickly land and rescue the crew members, including four who were injured. Although we're told those injuries were not life threatening. They are being treated tonight outside of Afghanistan.
Shortly after that the U.S. sent a couple of F-14s from the U.S. aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt in to destroy the wreckage of the helicopter on the ground, so it wouldn't fall into Taliban hands. And more indication of how the bad weather is a factor. An unmanned aerial vehicle, a Predator, was lost over Afghanistan also tonight. Again, believed to be a victim of bad weather. There have been reports of freezing rain in the area there. That could have been a factor.
These two crashes, the unmanned aerial vehicle and the helicopter, show that the United States is battling another foe, and that is bad weather
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): While sunny skies affords this U.S. B-52 bomber a clear shot at Taliban front lines, in other parts of northern Afghanistan, such as this refugee camp in Kamkishlak (ph), the blinding dust storms of winter have begun.
Deteriorating weather conditions have so far stymied Pentagon plans to insert more U.S. special forces to work with the anti-Taliban troops in the north.
REAR ADM. JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY OPERATIONS DIRECTOR: As the country starts to transition to its winter season and the rains are starting to fall, and the freezing altitudes, of course, that's pretty difficult on helicopters, much less any aircraft.
MCINTYRE: Laser-guided bombs require clear skies to work, and so far the cloud cover has been thin enough to permit continued strikes against Taliban targets. But over the next month or so, as a cold front moves in, the northern part of the country is likely to be blanketed with clouds and snow.
To help deal with the expected poor visibility, the U.S. is bringing in two high-tech spy planes: the unmanned Global Hawk, which can loiter over the country for more than a day at a time, and the J.Stars radar plane, which can pick out moving targets on the ground. Both planes have synthetic aperture radar and thermal sensors that can see through clouds.
At the same time, the United States is supplying the Northern Alliance with clothes and equipment, to give it a cold weather advantage over the Taliban.
STUFFLEBEEM: They asked for blankets and things, and we are going to make sure that they get what they need.
QUESTION: So you're going to give them -- increase the ability to fight in the wintertime?
STUFFLEBEEM: That's our intention.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon insists that the U.S. military is an all- weather force, and today Rear Admiral Stufflebeem said while the weather may at time constrain parts of the operation, the war against terrorism, he insisted, would not be stopped by the winter weather -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much.
And more news out of Washington tonight, this one concerning a suspicious letter at another government mailroom. CNN White House correspondent Major Garrett is on that story, and he's making a late night of it from the north lawn of the White House -- Major.
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, CNN has learned from various government sources that an off-site mail facility that services the Treasury Department is closed tonight, and will remain closed throughout the weekend until tests can be run on one suspicious letter.
The letter is suspicious for a couple of reasons. One, it carries a Trenton, New Jersey postmark, government sources tell CNN. And then the letter also contains what is called unusual writing on the outside.
Those two pieces of information were enough for that letter to be flagged by a mailroom employee who works for the Treasury Department. That letter was turned over to the federal protective service. Other government agencies are involved in the investigation.
And that mailroom facility, which again, is worth pointing out, is not a part of the treasury building itself, but is an off-site location near the Treasury Department building, will remain closed until the tests can be completed on this letter. Officials tell us that that could happen as early as tomorrow -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Major Garrett at the White House, thanks a lot.
Now one more example of the fine line between prudence and paranoia. Gray Davis, California's governor, is walking that line tonight, a day after going public with a warning that California's big bridges could come under attack beginning today. So far all is well.
That is not to say all is normal. For more on the threat and the reaction, we check back with CNN's Brian Cabell at the Golden Gate Bridge -- Brian.
CABELL: Wolf, it's a beautiful but cool evening here in San Francisco, following a gorgeous day. A quiet day, a calm day, an uneventful day, which comes as a great relief to many Californians.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Threat or no threat, motorists crossed the Golden Gate Bridge in normal numbers Friday. The same with the Bay Bridge, from San Francisco to Oakland, the Coronado Bay Bridge in San Diego and the Vincent Thomas bridge in Los Angeles.
All the bridges, under the orders of Governor Gray Davis, stepped up their security because of an alleged threat. Some officials believe the governor overreacted. He disagrees.
GOV. GRAY DAVIS (D), CALIFORNIA: I have no apologies for the decision I made yesterday. I acted on three written warnings from three federal offices indicating that there was a potential threat to suspension bridges on the West Coast.
CABELL: The reported threat to the bridges extends to next Wednesday. That means the National Guardsmen, the California Highway Patrol and the Coast Guard will remain on heightened alert. Governor Davis says Californians may have to get used to it.
DAVIS: In World War II, the people in London were bombed every night for about 15 months. Every morning they got up and went to work.
CABELL: Washington state officials. reacting to the same reported threat, stepped up their security as well.
CHIEF GIL KERLIKOWSKE, SEATTLE POLICE: We have over 35 officers that are assigned to our harbor unit. And just as we did on September 11th, those officers will be making visual, manual inspections of the bridges. And the SWAT officers and traffic officers will be providing additional security on top, and also making additional sweeps of those bridges.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CABELL: Here in San Francisco some companies told their employees they could take the day off today if they were frightened by the bridges. Most of the people came to work anyway.
But I can tell you when we came by here about six or seven hours ago across the bridges, we looked a little more carefully at pedestrians walking by, also at trucks. And then just about three or four hours ago, a catamaran was slowly going underneath the bridge, and a couple of people independently came up to us and said, "doesn't that look suspicious?"
So people here, Wolf, are a little more anxious than usual. They are looking at things with a different mind-set than perhaps they were just a day or two ago -- Wolf.
BLITZER: I assume, Brian, they are checking everything. Not only pedestrians, but trucks going over that bridge, as well as boats perhaps going under it. Is there any indication that they are stopping vehicles before they cross the bridge?
CABELL: No indication so far. They are not impeding the flow of traffic at this point. National Guardsmen are at either side of the bridge. They're looking at parking lots, at access roads -- anything that looks suspicious. But they are not literally stopping cars, at least that we saw, so far today.
BLITZER: Brian Cabell, thank you very much. And it's not quite fair to say people on the West Coast haven't been touched by terrorism. Many of course lost friends, colleagues, relatives, September 11th. But for the first time today, many experienced the threat up close in their day-to-day lives. How were they handling it?
CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is in Los Angeles with that side of the story -- Thelma.
GUTIERREZ: Wolf, thankfully it has been a very quiet day here at the port of Los Angeles. This is one of the largest ports in the entire world. In fact, at the Vincent Thomas bridge behind me, 36,000 cars cross the bridge every single day. Today apparently was no different.
We talked to commuters earlier in the day throughout the state, people who depend on the bridges to get to and from work.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): It is news unnerving for some.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little nervous, actually. It's kind of scary to know that something could happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd be really, really annoyed if they blew up that bridge. And I would really be pissed off.
GUTIERREZ: Some commuters have decided to stay off bridges and take the long way home, just in case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I tend to have not so good luck, so I -- it would happen when I was going over it.
GUTIERREZ: In fact, to put employees at ease, the Bechtel Corporation in San Francisco sent out an e-mail to its 3,000 West Coast workers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Given what we know, that we don't want to force them to come in, and that they can work from home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give people the choice of telecommuting, if they feel uncomfortable with traveling over the bridge. It's the responsible thing to do.
GUTIERREZ: But many Bechtel employees came to work anyway.
As for the people who work on bridges: On the Coronado Bridge in San Diego, union reps asked the state to grant toll collectors a leave from their duties, saying workers are at an extreme risk.
Those who cross the main bridges saw a big show of security: California Highway Patrol, armed national guard, military humvees at fixed stations along the bridge, and 24 hour air surveillance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I came over the bridge. I saw CHP at the bottom of the bridge, very reassuring.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very safe. No problem. The police were well in presence, and I felt totally secure.
GUTIERREZ: In fact, the state is reporting bridge traffic is just about normal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not going to drive an extra mile or two or three miles just because they're threatening our bridges. So I say to heck with them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is America, and if you let them scare you then you're just falling into their hands.
GUTIERREZ: And so for now, the bridges will remain open, under heavy surveillance.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUTIERREZ: There are many cruise ships anchored here at the port of Los Angeles. In fact, one million cruise ship passengers come in and out of here each and every year. The Coast Guard just announced that they have established a security zone around each of these cruise ships, that vessels cannot come within 100 feet of those cruise ships. If they violate the security zone, then they risk that the captain of the port can take possession of those vessels -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And how are folks on the street, Thelma, dealing with this new threat? Yesterday, as you remember the Governor Gray Davis saying the threat was specific, between November 2nd, which is today, and November 7th. How are folks simply reacting on the street?
GUTIERREZ: Well, you know, we've talked to many people, some of whom say we simply have to get to and from work. We have to continue with our daily lives. But for so long people were saying it is not necessarily a matter of whether if we will be attacked, but rather when. And so yesterday, when the governor made that statement, all of us found ourselves probably a little bit more on edge.
BLITZER: Thelma Gutierrez, thank you very much. I think all of us are -- have been on edge for some time right now. And when we come back, we'll talk to a pair of officials with a tough job tonight, defending against the unknown, when our SPECIAL REPORT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
We now want to get a sense of how local authorities responded to the warning last night from California's Governor Davis. From Sausalito, the Mayor Paul Albritton, and in Sacramento, D.O. "Spike" Helmick. He's the commissioner for the California Highway Patrol.
Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. And, Mr. Mayor, let me begin with you. You're right across that bridge out there in San Francisco. How are people dealing with this terror threat out there?
MAYOR PAUL ALBRITTON, SAUSALITO, CALIFORNIA: Well, I think they're dealing very well with it. We have nine agencies involved in protecting the bridge, and we have a lot of confidence in the FBI and also in the CHP, in keeping us protected here. We've had some additional activity in Sausalito, people reporting suspicious activity. But other than that, I think people are coping with it well.
BLITZER: Commissioner, what specific steps are you taking tonight to protect those bridges out there?
D.O. "SPIKE" HELMICK, COMMISSIONER, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL: Well, there's a lot of steps that have been in place. I think it's important to note those steps have been in place for weeks. Governor Davis, immediately after the September 11th, asked us to beef up some security. A lot of things are things you don't see, but I can assure you a lot of things have been done.
We were very fortunate out here to have some help from some very bright people. Dr. Bill Wattenburg (ph), Dr. McCowen (ph) at the Livermore National Lab, brought to our attention some vulnerabilities on the bridges. And in the last four or five weeks, the governor has directed those to be strengthened. And quite honestly, I believe those bridges are as safe as they have ever been. And we encourage people to use them.
BLITZER: Have you done anything specific since the governor announced that threat, additional to what you had been doing before?
HELMICK: No, and that's -- all the governor was indicating last night to the people -- as a matter of fact, I think he has an obligation to let them know that he was aware of this information -- but he also went on to say that he felt the bridges were safe, and encouraged them to use those bridges.
The one thing that did -- additional security, the governor did put the national guard, and honestly, we appreciated the additional people to help us do our job.
BLITZER: Mr. Mayor, how did you find out about this threat affecting those landmark bridges out in California and other states on the West Coast?
ALBRITTON: Well, I actually learned through the press. I think CNN, in fact. We had -- I learned later that our police had that information, but they had not disseminated it, and did disseminate it after the governor made his announcement.
BLITZER: Did the governor, Mr. Mayor, do the right thing in making this announcement? Because as you know, the FBI later said it was not necessarily confirmed that this was a credible threat. Is it the right thing to do, to alarm a lot of people, perhaps needlessly?
ALBRITTON: That's an interesting question. And a funny reaction today in Sausalito is that our ferry ridership was up 180 percent, and the commute traffic was actually dispersed throughout the area, as opposed to being focused in the middle of the day.
So perhaps it had a good environmental effect. But overall, I think you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. And I think advising the people, having the presence of the national guard here, having the press here, to be quite honest with you, I think makes it perhaps less of a terrorist target.
But you have to remember, this bridge has been strengthened to withstand an 8.1 Richter earthquake. And we're used to that kind -- earthquakes, we have preparations for those sorts of things out here. We're ready for disasters in California. I don't think Californians are affected that much by this announcement.
BLITZER: Commissioner Helmick, when is the right time, for a governor, in this particular case, to inform the public at large about these kinds of threats -- not necessarily the law enforcement authorities like you, but everyone? When is the right time to go public with this kind of a potential threat, and when is the right time to hold that information back from the public?
HELMICK: Well, obviously that's a tough question. I think the right time was exactly yesterday. The governor was aware of this information. It was possible that some people had already talked to -- that information was going to leak out.
The governor was not doing anything except letting the people know that, as the governor of the state of California, that he was aware of this threat, that he wanted them to be aware of it, and that the bridges were safe, that things had been done. I think the governor did absolutely the right thing, and to be honest with you, we're getting a very positive feedback from the people happy to know what the potential was and what is being done to make sure it's safe.
BLITZER: Commissioner Helmick, you may know that in New York City in the Lincoln Tunnel, they search every truck that goes into that tunnel. Are there any plans right now to search trucks, cars before they start crossing some of those huge suspension bridges out in California?
HELMICK: No, there's no plans at this time.
BLITZER: Would you feel, Mr. Mayor, more comfortable if they did stop cars, trucks before they -- some that looked perhaps suspicious, before they crossed those bridges?
ALBRITTON: Well, I think it's really not very feasible to do that. They are stopping some vehicles that people report as being suspicious, either by cell phone or other reasons. But other than that, it's practically impossible to do. As I mentioned before, doing damage to this bridge would be extremely difficult. And I think that the heightened security is important, but the kind of threat that could really cause damage to this bridge is going to come from a larger source, probably, than a truck.
BLITZER: Mayor Albritton, Commissioner Helmick, thanks so much to both of you for joining us. Good luck out in California.
HELMICK: Thank you.
BLITZER: You're welcome. Thank you. And as you've been hearing so much tonight, the nature of the warnings can be quite frustrating. Let's be honest: they're specific enough to scare, but they're also too vague to be of much use day to day. So is this the new normal?
Here's CNN national correspondent Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How long will Americans have to stay on high alert?
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: We're going to keep everybody on the Monday alert, that attentiveness, indefinitely.
CANDIOTTI: The latest alert about suspension bridges on the West Coast, rattling nerves even more.
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: By issuing the warnings we are sending a strong signal to terrorists that we are focused, prepared and united in our determination to keep them from attacking our freedom.
CANDIOTTI: Fallout from several fronts over whether the latest alert should have been made public. Privately, the White House not pleased California Governor Gray Davis announced the threat. The governor defends his decision.
DAVIS: But this one was time specific and location specific. I felt it was appropriate to tell people what I was doing to prepare for that threat.
CANDIOTTI: How credible is the bridge's threat? Government officials tell CNN it came from a reliable source who called a U.S. customs service offices in Boston. But the FBI was unable to corroborate the threat or its specific time and place.
Compare that to the warnings issued Monday. U.S. government officials call it more credible. It came from several reliable sources, from several countries, including Canada, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The threat was not specific, and only warned of attacks at least as big as September 11th.
Does the FBI need to create levels of alert for the public?
ROBERT BLITZER, FORMER COUNTERINTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL: In a way, I think it makes it worse when you keep ratcheting up, or saying that we're at the highest, or very, very highest state...
CANDIOTTI: One thing is clear. The White House and FBI admit it's virtually impossible to keep most warnings under wraps.
Susan Candiotti, CNN, Washington.
BLITZER: Up next, more on who the United States is up against in Afghanistan. Assessing the enemy, when our SPECIAL REPORT continues. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
You might remember these comments last week from Rear Admiral John Stufflebeem at the daily Pentagon briefing. He said, "I'm a bit surprised at how doggedly the Taliban are hanging on to power. They have proven to be tough warriors." Struck some critics as naive. Most of us know by now that these warriors have fought off more than one superpower in their history. And in this fight, the Taliban are not only digging in, but they're getting recruits from across the border.
CNN's senior international correspondent Sheila MacVicar, once again in Islamabad, Pakistan, with that and the latest on the ground -- Sheila.
MACVICAR: Wolf, some expectations, as you said, early in this war that the Taliban were perhaps a foe that could be easily and perhaps quickly vanquished. Well, weeks later that would seem to have ignored Afghanistan's history and the Afghan people, who, no matter what their own internal divisions, have historically united to repel a foreign force.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): They are waiting to join the jihad, the holy war, as they call it. With their weapons, their ammunition belts, their backpacks, Pakistani tribesmen gather at the mountain border with Afghanistan. They do not have the approval of their government and they do not care. Bound by links of family and tribe and language, indifferent they say to American bombing, they wait to go to Afghanistan to join the Taliban and fight.
"We're sending people across the border in groups of 300 or 500," says Dr. Mohammed Ishmael (ph). It's better to cross the border in groups.
Across the border, of course, there is the war. Weeks of bombing, increasingly intensive, and no sign that the Taliban, in a fight to the death, have begun to crack.
AHMED RASHID, AUTHOR: They don't need high levels of rations or facilities or logistics. And this is going to prove a very daunting task.
MACVICAR (on camera): In fact, say analysts who studied Afghanistan for years, the U.S. bombing campaign has so far had one major undesired effect. No matter how careful U.S. forces are, there are civilian casualties. And those deaths, say analysts, have served to unify even those who did not support the Taliban against U.S. and its allies.
(voice-over): More support, say analysts, from the Afghan people, who may not be sophisticated enough to blame their government when it is American bombs and that unintentionally kill their relatives or destroy their homes.
STUFFLEBEEM: And the last clip is a hit on an armored vehicle.
MACVICAR: In Washington at the Pentagon, U.S. briefers have called the Taliban -- quote -- "tough warriors," and expressed surprise at their ability to hold on to power. They also claim there have been defections.
STUFFLEBEEM: We know for facts that there are those who have changed sides. We are -- we know for a fact that there are those who have defected.
MACVICAR: Professor Asmat Hayat Khan talks every day to people in Afghanistan. "What defections?" he asks.
ASMAT HAYAT KHAN, UNIVERSITY OF PESHAWAR: No, we haven't seen any evidence yet of the Taliban. There has been no defection, no uprising by the tribes. In fact, there are more and more people that are getting sympathetic towards the Taliban.
MACVICAR: It is the tribal leaders who are key. They are not Taliban, but many of them are allied to them. They control their own forces, forces that could fight against the Taliban. They aren't changing sides yet.
The United Nations special envoy has been traveling the region trying to figure out what the next government of Afghanistan might look like, but he doesn't have any answers yet. And until there is an idea of what comes next, there is no one to defect to.
KHAN: OK, No. 1, who is next? Do you see anyone? I mean, if you replace one system, it has to be better than the old one.
MACVICAR: Meet Commander Malek Zarim Khan. He's already opposed to the Taliban. He was invited to Rome to meet with the exiled king, other opposition figures and American Congressmen. He says Americans promised him weapons and money to arm and equip his fighters.
(on camera): You have men who fight. Why don't you take your men and go and launch an offensive?
COMMANDER MAKLIK ZAREEM KHAN, AFGHAN OPPOSITION (through translator): We don't have any resources. We have been fighting them for years. But we are still waiting for help that was promised. How can we fight without arms and money?
MACVICAR (voice-over): Here they say the mountains are patient. The U.S. will have to be.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MACVICAR: A pretty frustrated Commander Maklik there telling me that he wishes that the United States would keep his promise, that he would get those arms and money. If he got that, he tells us, there are other commanders who would also be ready to take up arms. Big frustration. The key, of course, who is next? What does the next government look like? How quickly, Wolf, can they put it all together? Wolf?
BLITZER: Sheila, sitting here in the United States, to Americans -- as you well know -- the issue seems so clear cut. Why is the U.S. and its coalition partners -- especially Britain -- why are they having such a hard time winning the so-called propaganda war? Winning the hearts and minds of these Muslims, these people where you are?
MACVICAR: It's a very difficult question. First off, Afghanistan and the Afghan people are not a people who are confined within the borders of Afghanistan. There are tremendous cross-border links: ties of family, tribe, language. And so when people here in Pakistan see people in Afghanistan targeted or see bombs falling that may result in some civilian casualties -- however inadvertent those casualties may be -- they feel a need to go and defend their families.
Now, a lot of this is about family and about protection of the family. And as long as that is going on, say people, that will be the instinctive reaction as long as the bombing campaign continues. Someone hurts the family, people want to defend the family and people want to stand together one more time in Afghanistan to try to repel a foreign force.
BLITZER: Sheila MacVicar in Islamabad. Thanks for the excellent reporting. And coming up, emotions spill over at ground zero, pitting New York's bravest against New York finest. That story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: No one group was devastated more on September 11th than New York City firefighters, and the anger over what happened is powerful for many of them. That was clear today in Lower Manhattan.
Firefighters protesting a cutback in the number of people working at ground zero -- a protest that at times turned very ugly. 12 demonstrators were in fact arrested. The city said they scaled back to ensure the safety of those working there, but the firefighters feel like it will damage efforts to recover their fallen brothers. CNN's Maria Hinojosa has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was an unsettling image: the new heroes of New York suddenly turned against each other. Police arresting protesting firefighters and firefighters fighting back. A total of 12 firefighters arrested, five police injured, and emotions raw to the bone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we want to go in there. And whatever it takes, we want to find our friends.
HINOJOSA: The dispute erupted over Mayor Giuliani's decision to reduce the number of firefighters recovering bodies at the World Trade Center site. The reason, said the mayor, to protect those working on a site that is a crime scene, a disaster area, but also a burial ground. But for the firefighters, the scaling back is being taken as a dis, especially coming after workers pulled millions of dollars worth of missing gold and silver from the rubble.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn't about safety, you're right. It's about money. It's all about the money. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) found their gold and now they're done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah!
HINOJOSA: And the visceral confrontation didn't stop on the streets.
MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: The reality of the kind of conduct displayed today is unacceptable. You can't hit police officers. You can't disobey the law, and you have to have enough professionalism and dignity about yourself to not conduct yourself in that way.
BERNARD KERIK, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: We didn't anticipate that they would pick up and flip the barricades on top of the cops. We didn't anticipate that they would punch police officers in the face.
HINOJOSA: And from the site, the men who just weeks ago risked their lives to save others, put themselves on the streets and marched to City Hall, this time to protest the arrests of their brethren. This isn't about them, they say. It's about the families.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my brother. I want to bring him home. Work with us so we can bring them home!
HINOJOSA: But after their dispute the firefighters stopped to pray for the fallen and for peace in a city now recovering from a battle between those they saw as their superheroes.
Maria Hinojosa, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Coming up next, one firefighter makes his case. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. More now on the fight today down at ground zero. Among the protesters, firefighter Mike Heffernan with Ladder 13 on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. He lost his brother and nine firefighters he worked with on September 11th. Mike, thanks for joining us. And condolences of course, first of all, to you on the loss of your brother.
But explain to our viewers right now where probably many of them are still confused. Why have the firefighters now been effectively pitted against the police down at ground zero?
MIKE HEFFERNAN, LADDER 13, NEW YORK CITY: Well, Wolf, I think you got the -- the wrong message, actually, what's going on down there at ground zero. It's not us against the cops or anything like that. I myself am a nine-year veteran of the Police Department. I rolled over to the Fire Department: 40 percent of our jobs are all ex-cops. It's not us against the cops.
What happened down there is was the message was lost. The message is this, and it's clear, and I want everybody to know it. The people, the city of New York is being fooled by the mayor. He wants us out of there. He doesn't want to recover anymore people because there's no money to be made down there.
They have to put up buildings, get tourism back, start bringing in the public again so they can spend money. And we are slowing them down. They want to get this recovery over and start building buildings. And the faster they can do that, the better off they are.
But that's not going to bring people's families home. We're not talking about just firemen and cops. Let me tell you something. We don't walk over civilians to get to firemen. We give them the respect that they deserve. They are victims in this, too, Wolf.
BLITZER: So..
HEFFERNAN: Which...
BLITZER: I was going to say, Mike, so tell us how specifically -- what do you want to see happen as opposed to what the mayor wants to see happen?
HEFFERNAN: OK, Wolf. I tell you what. I was down there Monday morning. And I tell you, no crane -- no crane can search for the brothers like a man can with his eyes, ears, his nose, his hands, his heart, the God-given talents that we get.
The other day we were two -- two floors below -- no grappler, no crane, no operating crane available can be down there and see what we see with our hands, with our eyes. We can smell things. There's no crane that can smell a human being, Wolf. I'm sorry for -- I'm getting a little loud about this, but this is how I feel. I mean, you don't understand.
My brother was lost for 21 days before we brought him home, all right? God rest his soul. But I -- in 20 days, we -- he was missing, it was like the weight of the world was on my shoulders. My mother was going to church twice a day. She was wearing out the pews.
When we finally got my brother and we were able to give him the respect and the dignity he deserved in the finest tradition of the New York City Fire Department with the bagpipers and all the men outside the church at my brother's funeral -- that is why guys will go up a hundred stories and risk their lives for these people. All right?
And that you cannot -- he sits -- the mayor comes down, all right? He sits at the Yankee games. But he's never came into my firehouse where we have nine guys dead. I don't know if he's been around to the churches and the synagogues and told the people of New York and sat and cried with them. I invited him down my firehouse on 85th street. Go ahead, Wolf.
BLITZER: Mike, excuse me for interrupting. But are you saying that if you guys leave in big numbers and don't go in, effectively do this by hand, the machinery that goes in are not going to be respectful enough to all the bodies that are still there? Is that what you're saying?
HEFFERNAN: Yes, that's part of it, Wolf. But the machines, they're just picking up clumps, putting them in the back of a dumpster and bringing them over to the Fresh Kills landfill in Staten Island and sifting through them over there.
That's not the proper way to go about this. They want us to sit 50, 60 yards away, look with our eyes from a distance if a helmet falls out or a guy's -- or something falls out of a civilian member. How can you see that from 60 feet away? The operating engineers will tell you, we're right there. We work in conjunction with them, the iron workers. There's nobody down there in danger the way they're talking about. Listen.
BLITZER: I have to tell you, Mike, when we saw those pictures earlier today of the battles that were going on, the real -- the raw emotion...
HEFFERNAN: Yeah.
BLITZER: ... the tension between the police officers and the firefighters, and I said to myself, you know, it's not even two months since September 11th. It was painful to have to see this, knowing what the police officers and what the firefighters have gone through and their families as well.
HEFFERNAN: That's true, Wolf. But you know what -- what happened there? That was -- that was the mayor, putting the police in our way and using them as pawns to get back at us and to keep -- to distract the attention away from us and the real issue at hand here.
Those police -- we walked by one barrier of police and they let us go. Then they had the superior officers there, and they refused to let us go past. We dug down there for 7 1/2 weeks. Nobody ever stopped us before. You know, they were giving us the green light.
Now all of a sudden they're going tell us that we can't go down there? I mean...
BLITZER: Mike, before I let you go, tell me very briefly -- tell me something about your brother.
HEFFERNAN: My brother, John, was a year older than me. He worked in Ladder 11. He was a beautiful man. He had hands of steel and a heart of gold. And I tell you, I'm here tonight for my brother and for every other guy's brother and every civilian member of this tragedy that was here. We have to bring them all home. And Wolf, if we do not do everything in our power to bring every one of these people home -- uniform and civilian -- then we are amiss.
And any monument you put up down there isn't going to -- isn't going to appease these people. Handing them an urn and a flag and having a guy sing some opera on Church Avenue is not how we are going to end this.
We have to end this by until -- when we know for sure that there is no possibility, then we had can go on to phase two, which is rebuilding this city. But until then, we are still in pain. And I invite anybody down to my firehouse and to see the pain, see the civilians crying on us and tears coming down.
BLITZER: Mike, I've got to...
HEFFERNAN: They want their people back, and we are going get them for them, Wolf.
BLITZER: Mike, I want to thank you for joining us. Our condolences once again. Our -- our deepest thoughts, of course, go out to you, all the firefighters, their families -- and everyone and their families.
HEFFERNAN: Thank you, Wolf. Say a prayer for the missing, Wolf.
BLITZER: I certainly will. Thank you very much.
HEFFERNAN: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: Thank you. Mike Heffernan of Ladder 13 in New York City. And when we come back, could technology have prevented September 11th? Can it stop the next attack? We will look at the hardware and software that could -- could -- play a part in America's new war.
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BLITZER: Looking at night scope video from the front, watching smart bombs on dropped on chimneys, sizing up the latest stealth weapon: it all raises the inevitable question: why can't high technology be used as a weapon at home in America's new war? As CNN's David Mattingly found out, it can. It might. But it isn't, at least not just yet.
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DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the early morning of September 11th, two suspected hijackers are captured on video by a surveillance camera. Hours later, terrorists are behind the controls of four commercial airliners -- and ground controllers can do little more than watch them disappear from radar. Could anything be done to prevent this from happening again? The answer, according to experts, is yes. And it lies in technology that can make surveillance cameras -- even airplanes -- smarter.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will look at all kinds of technologies to make sure that our airlines are safe, and for example including technology to enable controllers to take over distressed aircraft and land it by remote control.
MATTINGLY: The White House is firmly behind technology that can allow airplanes to be controlled remotely from the ground. This is already in use in the skies of Afghanistan: unmanned Predator drones, pre-programmed and guided by satellite to gather intelligence in dangerous airspace.
Professor Eric Johnson is an expert in aerospace engineering at Georgia Tech University.
(on camera): So eventually the technology would allow for a plane to take off by itself, fly by itself, land by itself?
ERIC JOHNSON, AEROSPACE ENGINEER, GEORGIA TECH: There are vehicles that are -- that are doing that right now in -- operated by the military. But they are much less reliable than their equivalent manned vehicles.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Which means that making the leap from the lab to the cockpit of a 747 is problematic, and may be decades away.
JOHNSON: There's an intermediate level where we simply -- where we do allow the -- a person on the ground to take over control, but we don't prevent the pilot on board from being able to revert back to their own control. Looking longer term, we could actually make that a one-way process where the control would revert purely to the ground where the person on board would have no control anymore whatsoever, presumably a hijacker.
MATTINGLY: And it's on the ground where the first technological leaps in air travel security are already taking place. At a recent aviation security conference, a showcase of the latest anti-terror devices.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We would have the person stand in the footprints in front of the unit.
MATTINGLY: With such technology as x-ray back scattering, which uses low-energy radiation to penetrate clothing and detect contraband and weapons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even in the pants pocket. Down here on the side is a box cutter.
ANNOUNCER: Please move over a little.
MATTINGLY: Also on display biometric devices like this retinal scanner, which can be combined with an encoded ID card to add another layer of security.
ANNOUNCER: Identification is completed.
MATTINGLY: Breakthroughs in biometrics can also create cameras that do more than just watch.
DON YOAKUM, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, AXIS BIOMETRICS: I'm more than happy to do that.
MATTINGLY: Don Yoakum is an executive vice president for Axis Biometrics, a firm that offers facial recognition technology.
(on camera): What is that device doing when it sees me?
YOAKUM: It's actually taking certain areas -- regions in your face. In our particular products, they are three dimensional.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Using his company's software, watch what happens when I step in front of camera.
ANNOUNCER: Sorry. I do not recognize you.
MATTINGLY (on camera): With the click of a mouse, my face is logged into a database. Now every time the camera sees me...
ANNOUNCER: Thank you, Dave Mattingly. You can proceed.
MATTINGLY: It recognizes me, and can alert security if I go someplace I'm not supposed to be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can even use composite sketches.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): And it may not be too long before this kind of technology can make cameras smart enough to even record our mannerisms and detect unusual or suspicious movements. Properly installed smart cameras of the future could see terrorists walking through an airport, recognize their faces, match them to law enforcement records around the world. But systems today have a ways to go.
ANNOUNCER: Sorry. I do not recognize you.
MATTINGLY: A pair of sunglasses, even a suntan, can throw the system off.
ANNOUNCER: Thank you, Dave Mattingly. You may proceed.
MATTINGLY: The system requires continuing updates. Nevertheless, airports around the country are looking into facial recognition technology: including Boston's Logan Airport, where hijackers boarded the planes that brought down the World Trade Center. But why did it take September 11th to bring about such upgrades?
YOAKUM: There has not been a compelling reason to spend the additional money. And it is -- it's an ROI, a return on investment. MATTINGLY: And if there wasn't a reason to invest in high tech security before September 11th, there certainly is now. David Mattingly, CNN.
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BLITZER: You may have seen a very strange sight from ground zero earlier this week. Armored trucks carting away some $200 million worth of gold belonging to the Bank of Nova Scotia.
Well, we all know that far more precious things have been removed from the rubble: the remains of those killed, things that belonged to them -- wedding rings, wallets -- and also American flags. Quite a few of them. Carefully pulled out and brought back into a world that needs them now more than ever before. CNN's Garrick Utley tracked some of them down.
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GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What so proudly they hailed, the fans in Yankee Stadium, as a tattered American flag found in the rubble of the World Trade Center gallantly waved. Also proudly they watched as the crew of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, on its mission of war, witnessed the raising of another flag: the one New York City firefighters had placed over the rubble.
We know how the flag can push our buttons and touch the deepest emotions, which is the story of what happened when another flag was found deep in the ruins. It bears the scars of a terrorist attack. 12 of its stars are missing. Searchers at the Trade Center turned it over to a resident of New Providence, New Jersey.
The local American Legion post decided to retire the flag according to protocol: by burning it. But New Providence lost half a dozen of its residents September 11, and voices were raised and passions stirred to save the flag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is history. I don't agree with what's going on here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma'am, OK. Let me just say one thing, OK? They feel that there are thousands of people that died over there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So restore their memory. Don't burn the flag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I please finish...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They feel that it's a memorial to all those people that died at the World Trade Center. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what are you giving to our kids? What piece of history are you giving by burning this flag tonight?
UTLEY: If there was not a totally happy ending to this dispute, there was a compromise. As townspeople gathered for the burning, they learned that only a small part of the damaged flag would be placed on top of an intact flag on this patriotic pyre. The rest would be saved.
In the end, the conflict here was not between right and wrong, but what was the best way to honor the flag and those who were lost? And perhaps there was the memory of that other flag which flew over Fort McHenry and survived that perilous fight. It too was badly damaged, but kept and preserved. Today, to see it makes us think and remember, as will a flag in New Providence, New Jersey.
Garrick Utley, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: That's all the time we have on our special report. I'll see you Sunday for a special three-hour "LATE EDITION." Among my guests: the House International Relations Committee Chairman Henry Hyde, and the Senate Armed Services Committee chairman, Carl Levin. That's Sunday at noon Eastern.
And Monday Aaron Brown returns with the premiere of "NEWS NIGHT." Same time. Same guy. Same glasses. But a new name and new look. Good luck, Aaron.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
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