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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Giuliani Endorsement Helps Bloomberg; Administration to Announce Finding of Terrorist Financial Organizations; Anti-Taliban Forces Claim They Captured One City and Two Districts South of Mazar- e-Sharif
Aired November 06, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. The responsible thing to do with this page tonight would be to write about the elections, or airport security, or anthrax, or even the economic stimulus package that Congress and the president are fighting about. After all, this program has its roots in the awful events of eight weeks ago, and so do those issues.
So why am I writing about baseball instead? I think, because after eight weeks of wall-to-wall coverage, I find myself really pleased that things are quiet enough -- they surely aren't better, but they are quiet enough, to include in this program something that has absolutely nothing to do with 9-11, that is a milestone.
The decision by major league owners tonight to eliminate two team deserves a spot in the program. And even if you hate baseball and you hate sports, we hope you'll take some pleasure in that fact. This really is a sign that life, and perhaps this program too, is finding the new normal.
But rest assured, it's not all fun and games. There's politics, too. Looks like a dead heat in New York, in the race for mayor here, between the Republican candidate, Michael Bloomberg, and Democrat Mark Green. One thing we do know for certain, whoever wins will face a citywide financial crisis that may rival the brutal days of the 1970s.
An economy that was struggling even before this all happened -- and this image is never far out of our minds. The disaster that happened eight weeks ago today, and thousands still missing, as New Yorkers head to the polls to choose their next leader.
And of course, it's not just New York's economy that is struggling. The U.S. economy overall, facing its worst recession in decades, very possibly. Today the Federal Reserve slashed interest rate for the tenth time this year. The Fed chairman is in that limo. You can't see him, and the hope is that neither could the terrorists.
So there is tonight, politics and war and the economy. And writer David Halberstam, who joins us later, could talk smartly about all three. Plus, a story about one fireman's heroism years before September 11th, and the young girl who honors his memory. All of that comes up a little bit later, and it all begins with tonight's whip around the world, which tonight actually begins in our own back yard, New York mayors race.
Gary Tuchman at Republican Michael Bloomberg's headquarters. Gary, headline, please.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Mike Bloomberg, a tremendously successful businessman, a billionaire who spent about 50 million of his own dollars to try to become mayor of New York City. But sometimes the best things in life are free, and in this case it was an endorsement from Rudy Giuliani, which has helped him dramatically. And right now, as you said, the race is too close to call -- Aaron.
BROWN: We'll absolutely get back to you shortly. Maria Hinojosa is at the headquarters of Democrat Mark Green. Maria, the headline from there.
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just a couple of months ago, Democrat Mark Green thought he was a shoo-in in a city that is predominantly Democratic, but tonight he's still in a race that's too close to call, Aaron.
BROWN: Very different campaign launched by the White House. Our senior White House correspondent on the lawn tonight. John King. John, the headline.
JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, developments on two fronts in the campaign against terrorism. First, the financial front. CNN has learned the president will announce tomorrow what the administration views as a significant breakthrough. The administration will say it has identified two financial networks that it say provide support to Osama bin Laden, and that it is taking steps, here in the United States and overseas, to shut them down.
And on the diplomatic front today, some very tough words from the president, including an effort to put the world on notice, that he believes Osama bin Laden's ultimate goal is to acquire chemical, biological and perhaps even nuclear weapons -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you.
And to northern Afghanistan, finally, and CNN's Satinder Bindra, who is on the ground there. The headline?
SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, for the first time since this military campaign began, signs of movement on the ground. Anti-Taliban forces claim they captured one city and two districts just south of Mazar-e-Sharif. The Northern Alliance says it's now just 12 miles south of Mazar-e-Sharif, which if captured, could alter the course of this war. Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: Thank you. Back with all of you shortly.
We begin tonight with the New York City election. Eight weeks ago, it was almost certain that the winner of the New York City election would be the same person who won the Democrat primary. New York is a very democratic town. Only three Republicans have been elected mayor in recent memory. But this time, everything changed on primary day, on September 11th.
Suddenly, the issues for voters became, which candidate could best rebuild the city, and an economy. And suddenly, a billionaire Republican businessman became much more appealing. And tonight, Republican Michael Bloomberg and Democrat Mark Green are virtually tied as they start to count the ballots.
We go back first to CNN's Gary Tuchman, who has the Bloomberg story -- Gary.
TUCHMAN: Well, Aaron, might a very rich Republican businessman, who was a Democrat up until a year ago, be the 108th mayor of New York City? Perhaps. The race is very tight right now, and people here are very enthusiastic, very optimistic. This is the B.B. King Jazz Club, the Bloomberg headquarters for the evening. And it's fair to say the Bloomberg faithful are jazzed up about the possibility.
Fifty-nine-year-old Michael Bloomberg, just two weeks ago, was 15 points back in the polls. And then the Holy Grail of politics came his way, and that was the endorsement of Rudy Giuliani, the current mayor of New York City, who is wildly popular now since the World Trade Center disaster.
Since then, the polls have changed dramatically -- 42 percent to 42 percent, latest for the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) college poll that came out just yesterday. It is very tight.
This man, Michael Bloomberg, wants to become the fourth Republican in the last 100 years to become mayor of New York City. The other three, the current, Mayor Rudy Giuliani, before him, John Lindsey, and before him, Fiorella LaGuardia, who was so popular he got an airport named after him.
Michael Bloomberg voted near his house in the Upper West Side today. He says he's optimistic that he will become the next mayor. And what Bloomberg has said, as well as his opponent, Mark Green, that they were both willing to let Rudy Giuliani continue being mayor for three extra months, because of the World Trade Center disaster. However, that's met lukewarm support from legislatures, who have to pass that. So it does appear, whoever wins tonight will become the mayor on the scheduled date, January 1, 2002.
Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: Gary, thanks. As the numbers change, we'll get back to you.Now the other side of this race. Mark Twain once said, "never pick a fight with someone who buys his ink by the barrel." Tonight Mark Green learned all about running against a man who bought commercial airtime by the metric ton. We go back to CNN's Maria Hinojosa, who's covering Mark Green's campaign -- Maria?
HINOJOSA: Well, Mark Green really was considering that this would have been the race that he could have carried. Just a few months ago, he thought he was the man who would once again return this city to Democratic rule, after eight years under Republican Rudy Giuliani.
But it is not so, at least not yet. Although people here are trying to hold on. They have been saying that they're hopeful, even though at this point, the race is still too close to call.
So what happened? Well, essentially, the Democratic base that should have come out strongly for Mark Green became frayed. And became frayed, mostly because of racial politics. Those racial politics revolving around the Latino community which, for the first time in history in this city, has been split half and half, between the Republican candidate and the Democratic candidate.
And that particular reality with the Latino vote should -- if they had come out, as they have in the past, 60 percent for Democrats, would have been able to carry Mark Green over the top. But there have been many of the top Latino newspapers that came out endorsing Mike Bloomberg instead, upset over what they said was the race card that Mark Green pulled during the last runoff between Mark Green and Fernando Ferrer.
So at this point, people here are holding on to hope, thinking that they'll be able to go back to the city that eight years ago was run by the last Democrat candidate for Democrat mayor, the first African-American, Mayor David Denkins. And people are holding on to that hope now. But people are aware that this may be a very long night -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you. We'll check back with you as the numbers change. We should tell viewers here, polls close here in New York at 9:00. Essentially, these are mechanical voting machines that sometimes can take a while, particularly in a close race. This looks like we may be here all night, or into tomorrow and beyond.
Some other races that are a little easier to call right now. In New Jersey, CNN is projecting that the Democrat, Jim McGreevey, will defeat the Republican, Brett Schundler, for governor. That spot has been in GOP hands for eight years. McGreevey will replace the acting governor of the state, Donald DiFrancesco, who came to office when Christy Todd Whitman resigned to become head of the Environmental Protection Agency in the Bush administration.
And in Virginia's race for governor, the Democrat, Mark Warner, is projected to win, defeating Republican Mark Earley, former venture capitalist. So the Democrats, it would appear, are going to win two governorships tonight.
Back now to the race in New York, where a different wealthy businessman is still in the game tonight. Michael Bloomberg, as we said, in a very tight race. The polls help us understand what went on here. We get a read on that from Bill Schneider, our senior political analyst.
Bill, what are you taking from this first look at the polls? WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, the question is, how did this race end up so close? Let's look at what Michael Bloomberg, the Republican, had going for him, according to our poll. No. 1 was the money factor -- almost 50 million bucks. Did New York voters resent Bloomberg's money? Almost 60 percent said no.
The Rudy factor: 70 percent approve of the job Rudy Giuliani is doing as mayor, heavily voted for Bloomberg, his candidate. The September 11th factor, the crisis moved more voters to vote for Bloomberg than for Green. They saw Bloomberg as the stronger leader, who would do a better job rebuilding the city.
And here's where Bloomberg really made a breakthrough: the economy, the No. 1 issue to New York voters. And voters concerned about an economy badly damaged by the September 11th attacks, voted almost 60 percent for Bloomberg, the Republican.
Bloomberg is Jewish. That helped, in a city where almost 1/5 of the voters are Jews. They split evenly between the two Jewish candidates. And another fifth of the voters are Hispanics. They almost always vote Democratic, but Hispanic voters had problems with Mark Green because of his tough runoff campaign against the Hispanic opponent, so the Hispanic vote split.
What did Mark Green have going for him? The party factor: 2/3 of the voters were Democrats, so is he. The African-American factor: Despite Al Sharpton's failure to endorse any candidate, black turnout was pretty typical, and 3/4 of blacks voted for Green, the Democrat.
The education issue, it was the No. 2 issue after the economy, heavily for Green. And the safety issue -- the top quality that voters said they were looking for today was someone who understands the city and its problems. And voters looking for that quality voted for Green, almost -- as we see here -- almost three to one.
Green ran on his experience in public life. In a time of crisis, voters don't want to take a lot of chances. They want a safe, experienced choice, and voters looking for safety voted for Mark Green -- Aaron.
BROWN: OK, Bill, stick around for a bit.
We're also joined by our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield, who's with us in New York. Candy Crowley joins us as well tonight from Washington.
Jeff, let me start with you. Just your take -- a quick take on the New York race, since we spent some time on it, and then we'll broaden this out.
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: It was a race in which Giuliani was more or less running for a third term in the guise of Michael Bloomberg. And after September 11th, that, I think, proved to be one of the reasons, along with $50 million of Bloomberg's money, why it is as close as it is. BROWN: Money was hugely important here. Candy, money was hugely important in Virginia, too. Mark Warner, the Democrat there, a lot of money. Was money the difference, or is it more complicated than that?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think in both races, both New Jersey and Virginia, were multi determined. Yes, Mark Warner, the winner, as CNN sees it at this point, had a lot of money, spent a lot of money. But there are also some internal Republican problems which made it very hard for Mark Early, that had to do with the state legislature. There is going to be a lot of finger pointing after this race in Virginia, I can tell you, within the Republican Party.
The current head of the Republican national committee is Jim Gilmore, who's the out-going governor of Virginia. He obviously could not deliver the state. There's a lot of bad blood there. So that will be sort of interesting to see in the aftermath.
But it was money -- Warner had the money. He's a self-made millionaire. And it's interesting here, because -- talking about experience, and how after September 11th, what voters are looking for are leaders with experience. The experienced one here was Earley, the loser in the Virginia race. He's the one that has been in government.
Mark Warner, who's won, has had no prior government experience. He's is a businessman, a self-made businessman, but no government experience. So Virginia, of course, where the Pentagon was attacked, has been a race that has been run largely on money and local issues, including the economy.
BROWN: Jeff, this is such an odd election because of September 11th. I mean, September 11th was out there in every race, almost literally, around the country in some form or another. Is it possible in an election like this to say -- well, "clearly the Democrats are," or, "the Republicans must be"?
GREENFIELD: No. In fact, I would argue that, except for New York, I'm not sure that September 11th had a large impact in those races. I think, not only Virginia, as Candy described it, but New Jersey had -- this is where Tip O'Neill famous, "all politics is local," thing, which is an overstatement, in my view, applied.
This, the city of New York is where you -- the target of the attack, is where I think it transformed the race, and made Giuliani this larger than life figure. But I think anybody trying to draw national implications from any of these races is reaching beyond, you know, credible reach.
BROWN: By and large, fair to say that on September 11th, in most of these campaigns, the races froze. And if you were ahead on September -- set New York aside, here -- that it was hard to get the voters' attention after this.
GREENFIELD: Yes, I mean, both McGreevey and Warner were ahead, pretty much wire-to-wire -- to use an obnoxious horse racing analogy. New York, I think it did transform the race. BROWN: Most horse race analogies are obnoxious, I think.
Bill, you want to jump into this?
SCHNEIDER: Yes, there's another factor here which didn't show up, and that's President Bush's popularity. You've got a president with a 90 percent approval rating.
BROWN: But he wasn't out there.
SCHNEIDER: But he wasn't out there. And so it didn't really mean much in these races. And you can bet that a lot of Republicans are going to say we lost New Jersey, we lost Virginia, we don't know what's going to happen in New York. But they're going to say, you know, if the president had been out there -- he can't be this bipartisan figure above the fray. They're going to want him to use his popularity in a more active way, in the election next year.
BROWN: Candy, look at New Jersey for a second. I'm not sure that President Bush would have made any difference in New Jersey at all.
CROWLEY: No, and neither is the White House. Look, New Jersey is a Democratic state. And the Republican candidate there was a conservative Republican. Most Republicans didn't give him much of a chance, Bret Schundler, you're looking here at the pictures. Most people didn't think Schundler was going to win, even in the Republican Party.
I can tell you that I know Bill is right, that there will be, and there already are, Republicans who are complaining that George Bush was not out there campaigning for the two Republicans. But I can also tell you that there are many Republicans that I talked to today, in advance of this, saying, look, the best thing George Bush can do for us right now is to stay commander in chief.
His popularity is high, because you know, he's seen as commander in chief. And you put him out there in the political element, and he loses that. So he keeps his numbers high. We are quite happy to have him stay out there and be commander in chief.
BROWN: Jeff, all of you, about a minute left, so we'll keep it tight, here.
GREENFIELD: Quick historical point. In 1942, FDR campaigned vigorously for the Democrats. They lost 55 House seats and nine Senates seats, in the middle of World War COHEN: . Go figure.
BROWN: Bill, you get 15, here.
SCHNEIDER: The anti-tax message. Schundler, the Republican of New Jersey, Earley, the Republican in Virginia, ran the traditional Republican campaign against taxes. It didn't work. So there might be a lesson here that the anti-tax message doesn't have a grip, at a time, after September 11th, when voters now value government because they need government. BROWN: Candy, 15 seconds, last word.
CROWLEY: I think what you're going to see tomorrow is what you might expect, which is, Democrats -- who have some good wins here, let's not take it away from them -- in New Jersey and Virginia are going to say, hey, look, this is prelude to next year. But I can tell you, on both sides of the aisle, they're saying anybody that tries to predict what this means for next year is nuts.
BROWN: Thank you, all. It's almost as if we rehearsed it tonight. Thank you all for joining us.
Straight ahead on NEWSNIGHT: chilling words from the president, designed to scare the world into action. It certainly got attention, as you'll see in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Bush said something today that's enough to scare anyone silly, which may have been the point, come to think of it. Osama bin Laden, he warned, is seeking more than just chemical and biological weapons. Bin Laden, said the president, wants to get a hold of the bomb. As in, the bomb.
Back to the White House and our senior correspondent there, John King -- John.
KING: Aaron, you might ask, why would the president say that now? The White House answer to that is, we are five weeks into the U.S.-led military campaign. In the view of senior officials here at the White House, it is a logical time.
They also acknowledge that perhaps there is a need, especially overseas, to remind people of how all this began in the first place. So as the president tried to do that today, he also used chilling words to remind people of what he views as the long-term stakes of a war that, the president made clear today, is still in its very early stages.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Shoulder to shoulder with a key ally in the war on terrorism, and blunt talk for those who may be wavering.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Over time, it's going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity.
KING: It was a day of coalition building and escalating rhetoric -- the president, himself, giving voice for the first time to the long held CIA view that Osama bin Laden wants to acquire chemical, biological and perhaps even nuclear weapons.
BUSH: That's why we're going to keep relentless military pressure on him in Afghanistan. That's why we must prevail. That's why we must win. KING: Targeting front-line Taliban forces is now a major priority, and Mr. Bush says harboring terrorists is just one reason Afghanistan needs a new government.
BUSH: Children are forbidden to fly kites, or sing songs, or build snowmen. A girl of 7 is beaten for wearing white shoes. Our enemies have brought only terror and misery to the people of Afghanistan. And now they are trying to export that terror throughout the world.
KING: This speech was via satellite to an antiterrorism conference in Poland. The tougher talk, part of a deliberate strategy, as the military campaign enters its fifth week.
(CHANTING)
KING: There have been scattered protests across Europe, where polls show rising skepticism. And some Arab leaders want a pause in the bombing during this month's holy period of Ramadan.
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: At it's at this point in time that we need to steady people. We need to say, look, let's go back and go through the argument again, as to why it's happen, why we have to do this, why we have to see it through.
KING: Prime Minister Blair is one of a half-dozen leaders at the White House before a Saturday Bush address to the United Nations General Assembly.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And as the Diplomatic push unfolds over the next several days, the White House tonight also claims significant new progress on the financial front in the war on terrorism. CNN is told by senior administration sources the president will lease announce tomorrow.
The administration has identified two financial networks it believes provide significant financial support to bin Laden. The president will also announce the United States, with some help overseas, is taking steps designed to shut those networks down -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, back to the speech today. Is there, in the White House's view, evidence that -- not that there's unrest in the streets, but that governments themselves are less supportive of the effort than they were a month ago, or three weeks ago?
KING: Not any key governments, anyway. The administration, quite happy with the evolving position with the government of Pakistan, which a week ago, was saying, "pause the bombing during Ramadan." Now saying it understands that the bombing won't stop. Critical support from the French, the British, the Germans. The United States quite happy with that.
But you do see the public protests in some of those countries, rising skepticism in the public opinion polling. For the president, trying to make his case more and more to audience overseas. Interesting, though, because of the tough talk today, lost was the message that administration officials say is most critical to changing public opinion, especially in Europe: the effort on the humanitarian campaign and the president's repeated promises that the United States is not targeting civilians.
That, lost, today, because of that talk about Osama bin Laden, and what the president views as his efforts to gain access to weapons of mass destruction.
BROWN: John, thanks. Senior White House correspondent John King on the White House lawn, tonight.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT this evening, progress in the ground war with help from the air. We continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: On the battlefield today, B-52s again, busy carpet bombing Taliban front lines. There were more pinpoint strikes as well, all helped by additional American spotters who are now on the ground in Afghanistan. There's also a sense today that these gigantic daisy cutter bombs are doing their job, as well. They're the biggest in the arsenal on the American side. And in the words of one general, "They make a heck of a bang."
Yeah. The intent, he said, "is to kill people," and the hope is, the
Northern Alliance will take advantage of it all. So we go back, now, to CNN's Satinder Bindra, who is with the Northern Alliance forces this morning in the northern part of Afghanistan.
Good morning to you.
SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Aaron. It's been 10 days since U.S. planes have been bombing Taliban front-line positions in this sector. Now, for the first time, Northern Alliance troops claim they're moving forward. They claim they are just 12 miles south of the strategic city of Mazar-e-Sharif.
But even Northern Alliance commanders concede, it could be days, perhaps weeks, before Mazar falls.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): For the first time since the military campaign in Afghanistan began, more than four weeks ago, there are claims of significant movement on the ground. The Northern Alliance says it's captured the districts of Zarai and Okhupruk, as well as the city of Kisendeh.
All three areas lie just south of the strategic city of Mazar-e- Sharif, where there has been a seesaw battle for control. If captured, Mazar would open up a corridor to ferry in supplies from Uzbekistan. ABDULLAH ABDULLAH, FOREIGN MINISTER, UNITED FRONT: At one stage, our forces had got very close to the Mazar air fields, like, 5, 6 kilometers. Now they have like, 20 kilometers, more or less.
BINDRA: It's not possible to independently verify any of these claims. But even the Taliban say the fighting around Mazar-e-Sharif for the past few days has been intense, with their forces facing both ground and air attacks.
U.S. planes have been bombing Taliban strongholds near Mazar-e- Sharif, so the opposition forces, who are poorly armed, can make significant gains in the area before the onset of winter. Still, for all the U.S. help, it could be weeks, maybe months, before Mazar changes hands.
ABDULLAH: Our forces in that part, we cannot supply them by the ground.
BINDRA: Sending supplies by air is risky. Now the Northern Alliance also believes Taliban forces in the area have recently been bolstered by the arrival of thousands of well-armed Pashtun tribesmen, who crossed into Afghanistan from neighboring Pakistan.
ABDULLAH: Now they are in the front lines, very close to the front lines. And it will affect the situation. It will affect the length of the campaign.
BINDRA: Away from Mazar, there are more signs of increasing cooperation between Northern Alliance forces and the U.S. Recently, senior commanders here say a U.S. helicopter landed in Northern Alliance territory.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Aaron, it's now estimated there are about around 100 U.S. ground troops in Northern Alliance territory. They're helping to coordinate U.S. airstrikes. They're also helping to train and equip Northern Alliance forces.
Also, here in the neighboring country of Tajikistan, U.S. forces are looking for airfields where they can base low-flying planes and heavy bombers, as well -- Aaron.
BROWN: Have you seen any of the Americans?
BINDRA: About three days ago, Aaron, there was a plane -- a helicopter, rather. It was a Soviet-built-8. It landed here in Khoja Bahauddin and some folks shot videotape of it. I saw the videotape, and clearly on the back of the helicopter were clear signs which read, "U.S.," and the U.S. flag was visible.
Very difficult to spot U.S. ground troops. They're keeping a low profile here -- Aaron.
BROWN: Satinder, thank you for your efforts tonight. You might remember, by the way, a while back, a Pentagon official saying that the Taliban combat forces had been "eviscerated." The secretary of defense quickly backed off that bold comment, but in a way he didn't have to. The Taliban clearly seem to thrive when things get bad. And things have been getting bad, lately.
For the latest on the morale within the Taliban, here again, CNN's Nic Robertson. Nic, good morning to you.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Aaron.
Well, it was just a couple of days ago, we returned from Afghanistan. And really, the trip inside there, this time in Taliban- controlled territory the first time that journalists have really had an opportunity in the more than month now -- almost a month now that the bombing -- to really assess or get an idea of the morale inside the Taliban.
And one looks here not just for what they say but for the clues about how they deport themselves, what their who mood is on the streets, are they afraid, do they look afraid every time an aircraft flies over the skies? The indications we had, that was not the case. At this time, their morale appears be pretty high.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
ROBERTSON: The face of Taliban the world rarely gets to see. Fighters for the hard-line Islamic movement singing poems.
"Our land is full of mountains and caves," they chant. "Made of nothing but broken boulders." Morale appears high. And while the poses struck for the cameras by the young fighters smack of bravado, the rhetoric of commanders strikes a more serious note of foreboding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH INTERPRETER): The Taliban, as true Muslims, are looking to become martyrs. we want to die for a cause while others want to live.
ROBERTSON: In this deeply religious force prayers five times a day are a priority. Most here, however, say they expect to fight through the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. To the Western eye, the Taliban fighters may appear somewhat ragtag. But their lack of conventional military appearance is helping them blend in with local communities and so escape attack.
In almost a month of bombing, they say only 15 fighters have been killed in southern Afghanistan, and warn they have so many volunteers they are turning people away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH INTERPRETER): We don't really need to force anyone to fight for us. We have enough manpower and we don't need anyone from Pakistan or any unwilling Afghans to fight.
ROBERTSON: It is hard to verify claims and volunteers are crossing the border into Afghanistan to join the Taliban's ranks. Commander Haqqani says he doesn't need outside help either. But under his command, recently outfitted with new military jackets and equipment, there are Pakistani volunteers.
MOHAMMED SYAD HAQQANI, SPIN BOLDAK COMMANDER: We have not yet taken revenge on Americans. They are just throwing stones from the sky. When they send their ground troops, we will teach them. Our strength is in our faith, not in our weapons.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
ROBERTSON: With military sites off limits to journalists, it's very hard to gauge the destruction of the Taliban. However, at this time they do appear ready and willing for a long battle. Aaron?
BROWN: Nic, one quick one. I ask to you play psychiatrist here. Are these just words they speak, or do you think they really mean it? You were in a room with them.
ROBERTSON: They mean it, Aaron. They certainly mean it, and it's not only coming from the military commanders, too. We hear it on the streets from people there. They genuinely that they are frustrated that the bombs fall, there's nothing they can do. They feel that they fought the Russian -- the Soviet occupation in the 1980s. They feel they know how fight on their home ground a large force. They are ready. That's what they say. And they are really willing it at this stage. Aaron?
BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson with a cautionary tale tonight. Thank you very much.
Coming up, we will talk about a lot of these things with one of the great war reporters of a different war, a terrific reporter in any time. David Halberstam joins us in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We've heard a lot of these kind of warnings, warnings that were written before September 11th. Here's the quote tonight: "The real danger to an open society like America was the ability of a terrorist -- not connected to any sitting government -- to walk into an American city with a crude atomic weapon, delivered in a cardboard suitcase."
Well, it wasn't an atomic weapon that brought down the World Trade Center. But President Bush today made clear that he thinks Osama Bin Laden would use such a weapon, if he had one. Joining us tonight, the Pulitzer-Prize winning reporter and writer who brought us that warning: David Halberstam, the author, ironically enough, of a book called, "War in a Time of Peace." Nice to see you.
DAVID HALBERSTAM, JOURNALIST: Nice to see you.
BROWN: Always good. You wrote the other day that the world changed completely on September 11th. And let me -- let me press you a little on that. Aren't we a little close to it all still -- we're eight weeks away -- to really know that?
HALBERSTAM: No, I think it really did. I think the sense of in vulnerability, the immunities that we the thought had -- we had are gone. And we are vulnerable and we are at war.
And there is a continuum. There is a great phrase from Emerson: "Events are in the saddle and ride mankind." They have attacked us. I think a genocidal act, really, the attack on the World Trade Center. We have responded. Each move begets something else. No, we are not too close to it. Something really quite dramatic has changed.
BROWN: And what we are seeing now is just, then, the beginning of the repercussions of all of that that will go on for generations?
HALBERSTAM: Can you do what we are doing now and limit the effect in the Islamic world? Can you really make it precise so that it doesn't spill over and you begin to have a larger war, and you are very acts of assault do their recruiting for them?
I mean, this is a -- can the government in Pakistan survive? Very fragile. I mean, Shimon Peres says he never thought he would go to bed every night praying for the health and life of the President of Pakistan.
I think this is a very, very tough new equation. How do we handle the home front? Do we have an equity of sacrifice? Can all of us put together some of ideological tilt in order to do this?
BROWN: How did we miss it? And the we in this sense -- although it could be government -- I think it will be media?
HALBERSTAM: Well, I think that we binged. I think that we binged on self-absorption. I think the main networks changed in their economic structure. The stock was tied to the ratings. You got ratings by doing celebrity and scandal, because people weren't allegedly interested in foreign policy. The networks got rid of their foreign correspondents.
BROWN: Do you think the news business will have changed when all is said and done for this?
HALBERSTAM: I don't know. I mean, I think the -- the question is really the people who run those corporations. Do they see themselves in sort of a modified form of capitalism, public domain capitalism? Do they understand that there are obligations that go with this great power?
They really got rid of their foreign correspondents in that decade, I think, and there was -- and there are magazine shows where I think incredibly trivial. I have been talking about this for about ten years, so I have sort of a vested interest on this.
BROWN: Do you think in some ways it is connected to the end of the Cold War? That the end of the Cold War...
HALBERSTAM: We binged. In the Cold War the great oceans which had protected us became pawns. When the Cold War was over, we really took the attitude, they are oceans again. And they weren't. The world became a different kind of dangerous world. I think it became very obvious. Where there was genocide in Bosnia or Kosovo or the events constantly in the middle east, the world was a dangerous place. And the world was shrinking.
The ability of the people in that part of world -- people like Bin Laden -- to see us and to sell idea that A, we are rich and B, they are poor and that they are poor because we are rich. So much of their propaganda is based on the selling that idea -- an idea which is not true.
They are poor because their governments are in fact largely incompetent and selfish and greedy. But they sell that, and they push on the idea that their hardship and cruelty in life is the product of our successful society.
BROWN: Because I don't get you sitting next to me nearly enough, I want to just sit around for a minute...
HALBERSTAM: Wait a minute. I found you -- I discovered you in Seattle years ago.
BROWN: You know, you only admit that now, which I find really interesting. But you stay here. We will talk about baseball, see how good do on that. Major league baseball.
HALBERSTAM: Do we get to play ball?
BROWN: We'll find out. I may throw a hanging curve. We will talk about the change in baseball with David and Keith Olbermann in just a moment when we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In sports tonight -- I've just always wanted to say that -- we have baseball. Major league baseball. Just two days after one the great World Series in years, reminded us again of what's wrong with baseball, and it has nothing to do with the game.
Major league baseball announced tonight that it's going to kill off two teams. A reasonable bet is Montreal and Either Florida -- a World Series winner -- and the Minnesota Twins, the team of my youth for goodness sakes, and twice champions in the last 15 years.
This is to all part of solution -- or a solution to baseball's ongoing economic problems, and maybe even an opening shot into its never-ending labor wars.
We'll talk about this now with David Halberstam, who has written about the game, and Keith Olbermann, who used to make a living talking about such nonsense but has since grown up. Or not.
KEITH OLBERMANN, UTILITY INFIELDER: Or not.
BROWN: Nice to have you both. Keith, do you think they are serious?
OLBERMANN: They are serious. And you made great point about the timing. They do have the timing of the guy who comes to repossess your car. They had the best World Series in ten years, best ratings, and in 36 hours later it's, you know, lower boom and let's talk about the financial realities.
The owners are serious about it. Whether or not they can actually get away with it is an entirely different kettle of fish because in the courts...
BROWN: Before we go to David here, is this a labor ploy or labor -- is this tied to labor or are they just...
OLBERMANN: Well, contraction necessarily will bring on labor, as somebody observed.
BROWN: Well, not necessarily. Because to get the players association to sign off on the deal, all they have to do is guarantee jobs to all those players...
OLBERMANN: It's not as simple as that. If you were...
BROWN: It never is when I think of it, Keith.
OLBERMANN: When there's -- what they're talking about doing is adding two players to each roster of the surviving teams, which would be low-end, minimum wage $200,00 a year guys. The Twins and the Expos -- if it's those two teams -- those salaries, those payrolls this year were $60 million dollars. Right off the bat, they would save $50 million.
Bud Selig, the commissioner of baseball, announced today he would not lock the players out at the end of this current contract, thus putting all of the obligations and the possibility of a strike on the players. So it is a deft move, if not -- if not a very well-timed publicly move.
BROWN: And David, or am I making...
HALBERSTAM: ...constant confrontation over labor. Like he said, I don't think shrinking the leagues is a bad thing. I'm enough of a geezer to think that all the leagues are inflated.
There are too many teams, too few great players on most teams and then if you went to about 24 teams in each league -- each of the major leagues -- you'd be -- you'd be better off. I think it's all diluted.
I think, by the way, that showed in the World Series where, you know, the great home run statistics and all the people were so great, 60, 70 home runs -- these guys either don't get there, or if they get there power isn't very important because they are up against such good pitching.
I think there's a lot of stuff out there is that diluted. I think one of the problems in the NBA is how few teams have three very good players. And I think that's hurt all these leagues.
BROWN: Do you want to jump in?
OLBERMANN: No, I mean, there is -- clearly they have -- they overexpanded. But the question was, we are not talking about something that happened in 1896 that they are trying to correct, or even something as stupid as the designated hitter rule from 1973.
They expanded four years ago and were very happy to take $100 billion of Jerry Colangelo's money to create the Arizona Diamondbacks. And now all of sudden the conclusion is, oh, we have too many teams. How did that happen? It happened because the owners took the money of other people and sold them a box of air.
BROWN: If this is the beginning of this labor battle, and -- can baseball afford to have a strike, a lockout, a whatever it's going to be, again?
OLBERMANN: Well, you wouldn't think so under these circumstances.
BROWN: Do they know that?
OLBERMANN: Well, when was it written? 1895, that baseball had all -- David, do you remember? Not that you remember this, but you remember reading it.
HALBERSTAM: That...
BROWN: I'm sure that was meant as a compliment, David.
OLBERMANN: Baseball has always survived the stupidity of the guys who run it.
HALBERSTAM: I think so. I mean, I think if they really screw it up it will go down -- the curve will go down for a while, but then it will come back. Because I think it, you know, it's in the DNA of the country. It's a long summer without it, and it builds as you get into the fall.
This was a great, great World Series. What, three games that turned in the ninth inning. Wonderful pitching. A sort of ordinary team that turned out to be better than ordinary, with two great pitchers beat a somewhat better, broader gauged team with good pitching but not quite great pitching. It was a wonderful series.
I think people will come back, but I think it takes time to get back. I mean, you shot off a toe and then maybe another toe grows where it was.
BROWN: Just less than a minute. Is this, do you think, cataclysmic or just kind of evolutionary as baseball tries -- I mean, it does have real economic problems -- it tries to figure itself out here?
OLBERMANN: Well, it cut back before. They did it at the turn the century and they recovered from it fairly quickly. But the real cataclysm could be the challenges to this by the local authorities. There's already a restraining order against baseball in Minnesota in case they try to shut the Twins down.
And think of all the minor-league franchises that are affiliated with two teams. They -- everybody would sue. This could engender a hundred lawsuits, and that's what -- what the cataclysm would be.
(CROSSTALK)
HALBERSTAM: The courts...
BROWN: They didn't have a great TV deal a hundred years ago, though.
HALBERSTAM: The courts -- I think what does turn people off in sports is the idea of the courts coming in and stuff being adjudicated and people suing each other. That is a major downer, I think.
BROWN: David, thank you. Keith, thank you. It's nice to see you.
OLBERMANN: Pleasure.
BROWN: Utility infielders. How we (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tonight. Coming up, tomorrow's headlines. We will talk to newspaper editors around the country in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Last night we introduced you to our first NEWSNIGHT gimmick, tomorrow's new tonight. 24 hours later, we're bringing it back as NEWSNIGHT's longest-running feature. By tomorrow it will be a classic. With us tonight, Paul Moore, the deputy managing editor of the "Baltimore Sun." And in Phoenix, Jeff Dozbaba, the deputy managing editor of the "Arizona Republic." And good evening to both of you.
JEFF DOZBABA, "ARIZONA REPUBLIC:" Hi, Aaron.
PAUL MOORE, "BALTIMORE SUN:" Good evening.
BROWN: Paul, you are out East so you get -- you have a pretty good idea of what your front page looks like tomorrow I assume.
MOORE: Yes, I hope so at this point.
BROWN: I do too. What is on it?
MOORE: Well, some of stories that you have already documented on your news show tonight: the Fed rate cut, the baseball story, Northern Alliance gains militarily.
A couple stories I will note that are -- that are ours alone. One of our reporters in Pakistan has an enterprise story about American diplomats trying to provide the American point of view to a group of graduate students in Islamabad. Unfortunately, they received a lot of the same feedback that we are seeing from disaffected radicals and mullahs. It's somewhat of an eye-opening experience for the diplomats, and our reporters filed a real interesting story.
We also have reports from our Washington bureau about President Bush's comments today about Bin Laden's efforts to get more weapons of mass destruction and a couple of good local features.
BROWN: All right. We will come back to that. Jeff, it's pretty early still for you out in Phoenix. Do have a -- at least a broad sense of where your front page is?
DOZBABA: Sure, Aaron. Baseball is dominating our front page tomorrow. It's dominated the paper for the last two weeks. We had, as these just guys noted, a pretty exciting World Series. The fan reaction has been unanimous in they want more coverage. And it's been one of thoe unifying events in the Valley of the Sun, so we have covered it pretty strongly.
Also on the front page is a story of the major election tonight in Phoenix. They had a half a billion dollar bond issue to build a new convention -- civic center to help the city compete for convention and tourism business.
And an interesting story out of the suburbs of Arizona. A militia broadcaster, William Cooper, was shot to death in a gun battle with deputies who had tried to serve a warrant on him. And that's a big story. This Cooper was a frequent -- Tim McVeigh was one of his...
BROWN: Heroes?
DOZBABA: Heroes, yeah.
BROWN: Couple quick ones for both of you. Paul, do you feel like 9-11 as a story is waning a little bit?
MOORE: Yes. Although I think in the east coast, obviously, our proximity to Baltimore and New York probably keeps it at a higher level than you might find in the Midwest or the Southwest. But certainly, compared to a week to ten days ago, it has abated somewhat.
BROWN: And Jeff, I'm wondering in a community like Phoenix, which is in a lot of ways a transient community, if the story plays differently.
DOZBABA: It still plays pretty strongly here. It's a -- you know, it's a national story. People from -- in Arizona are from elsewhere, for the most part. And the one thing they have an interest in is international events.
We have had a -- we have reported on a sleeper cell -- an al Qaeda sleeper cell that was in Arizona like three to five years ago, and its members included Hani Hanjour, pilot of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. So it has played pretty strongly.
The anthrax scare has played real strongly. And I think there's still interest. I think anthrax right now is major of the two -- the major component of the two stories because it touches home more dramatically and -- but I still think it's interesting. BROWN: About a half a minute left. If it -- let me give it to Paul, I think. Is it hard to compete with television on this story?
MOORE: I think not, actually. I think that the complexity of the story gives us the ability every morning -- if we are doing our jobs correctly -- to provide some depth and analysis. Certainly we can't compete in the immediacy. But I think the story is so large, so complex, photographically and in a number of areas, we are able to do the job.
BROWN: I think you are probably right. Paul, Jeff, thank you both. It sounds like...
DOZBABA: Thank you very much, Aaron.
MOORE: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: ... a very interesting time in both of your cities. I hope you will come back.
DOZBABA: Thank you.
MOORE: Thank you very much.
BROWN: Up next, the final report. One fireman's courage years before September 11 and one girl who not forgotten that story. How could she? NEWSNIGHT will continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's been eight weeks since that Tuesday morning, and by now we all know the heroics of the New York city firefighters. Celebrities even these days wearing their hats during countless tributes around the city and around the country. But it's easy to overlook the similar, smaller acts of bravery before that.
Tonight we want to look at the story of one girl who was saved many years ago by a firefighter who didn't have his own savior on September 11th. The story from CNN's Jason Bellini.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After seven weeks, Terry Farrell's body was finally found within the wreckage of the World Trade Center. His children had a coffin to salute. And another very special person in Terry's life, also in his bloodline now, was able to leave a flower on his grave.
Is it tougher being sick or tougher going through this?
CHANTYL PETERSON: It's tougher going through this.
BELLINI: Chantyl Peterson, 14 years old, is alive because of Terry. He saved her not from a fire, but from T-cell lymphoma, a terminal illness.
Where was it you guys met for the very first time? Right here in this hall?
It was here, at this blood bank in 1993, that Terry had his bone marrow tested. The national databank identified Chantyl as a perfect match.
SHERI PETERSON, CHANTYL'S MOTHER: He didn't just save her life. He gave her life.
BELLINI: Chantyl's hero -- the man who didn't hesitate to undergo painful surgery for a girl he, at that time, didn't know -- became a part of her life. She never expected to have to let go so soon.
How old were you when you met Terry?
PETERSON: I was six.
BELLINI: She flew with her family a second time, from Nevada to New York, when she was eleven; having lunch -- of all places -- in the Twin Towers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're from small towns, and these -- I think are the tallest building where we are from is like four stories.
BELLINI: The plan had been to hold a reunion between his family and theirs every five years.
Terry Farrell was a member of Rescue Four in Queens, one of nine guys from here who lost their lives on September 11th. His coworkers describe him as a quiet man, burly, but also gentle.
Terry's funeral brought together the many people whose lives he touched over the years.
PETERSON: One of Terry's friends last night took this off of his jacket and he said that him and Terry had won this award for saving someone at a rescue. So they won this award together and he gave it to me.
BELLINI: Chantyl, her parents say, was devastated when she heard Terry was missing in the rubble. But she held out hope until his body was found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just sat her down and told her that they had found Terry. And she was all smiles. And, you know, "is he OK?" And we says, "no." He -- you know, they found -- found his body.
BELLINI: Chantyl's parents decided to bring her to Terry's funeral, to go through the grief with Terry's own children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I lost my own father when I was 19. I think emotionally -- this has been harder on me because, of what this gentleman gave us. BELLINI: The Peterson family grieves for someone who did something incredibly good, and who died when people who did something unbelievably bad.
A moment that you think you'll always remember?
PETERSON: Putting the rose on his coffin.
BELLINI: Saying goodbye to her true hero. Jason Bellini, CNN, Long Island, New York.
BROWN: That's all for tonight. We will see you tomorrow. Good night.
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