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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
President Bush Meets With British Prime Minister; New Jersey and Virginia Elect Democrats to the Governorship
Aired November 07, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. Those of you who were with us last night will remember -- because we know you take careful notes -- just how pleased we were that we had one segment in the program that had absolutely nothing to do with the events of September 11th.
It was a sign, we thought, that we really were moving towards a new normal. We had no idea how right we were until we saw this, this afternoon. Yes, indeed, it was a car chase. OK, it was a truck chase in Dallas. And for the longest time this afternoon we, here at CNN, ran with this. So did the other cable channels. They enjoyed it more than we did.
Now, on the one hand, we get this. It's great TV. It's absolutely trivial. It's weirdly suspenseful. You kind of wonder how it's all going to end. On the other hand, there was a part of me that thought maybe I should pick up the phone and call Congressman Gary Condit and warn him he may be back on the air again soon. The search for Chandra could again move to the head of the list.
Maybe it is that the new normal isn't going to be that new after all. Maybe. In the meantime, there is real news to report, and we shall.
President Bush tried to widen the financial dragnet today. The U.S. froze the assets of 62 more people in groups that operate, in the president's words, at the service of mass murderers. And with that, agents descended on suspect offices across five states.
Encouraging to see real raids going on here in the United States. We haven't seen too many of them since September 11th. And the president today also met with the British Prime Minister Tony Blair, described by one writer as a "second U.S. secretary of state." Pitching America's cause around the globe, and no sign today that Mr. Blair is backing away from that.
Also tonight, a 911 call. The 911 tape of a postal worker dying of anthrax, and trying to get some sort of attention for his problem. You'll hear how it played out.
And Christiane Amanpour tonight, with a story about the efforts to talk the Taliban into handing bin Laden over before the bombs started falling. In fact, years before September 11th.
That and more on NEWSNIGHT this evening. It begins, as it does, with a quick whip around the world. The White House first, senior White House correspondent John King.
John, the headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it is a headline you've heard before, but there is a point to that repetition. As you noted, the president and the British prime minister standing side by side here at the White House tonight, making the case confidently that war was progressing on every front, including the financial front, and confidently predicting victory, no matter how long it takes.
And as if to reinforce their optimism in the military campaign, both said a major subject of their discussions here tonight is just what a post-Taliban government in Afghanistan should look like -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. Susan Candiotti has been looking at these organizations that were raided today. Susan, the headline from you.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.
Government officials say these people and organizations included wire transfer companies, both here in the U.S., and offshore banks. Their assets, now frozen solid. Authorities say the companies would skim transaction fees, tens of millions of dollars, to bankroll Al Qaeda's handiwork.
BROWN: Susan, back to you shortly as well.
We have politics on the broadcast this evening. Candy Crowley handles that. Candy, the headline from you this evening.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.
Michael Bloomberg, the mayor-elect of New York City, is promising a seamless transition with his main man, outgoing Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Savoring his upset victory of last night, Bloomberg today told reporters he'd love to have Giuliani stick around and give as much advice as he can. Maybe, and maybe not. But in any case, Mr. Giuliani has other ideas -- Aaron.
BROWN: Candy, back to you. Back to all of you in a moment, but we'll start at the White House. Perhaps we should call this "Show us the Money." The Bush administration went after the money today -- money it believes is used to finance terrorist networks and operations.
The attack on the terrorist financial network may be the least -- you'll excuse the expression -- the least sexy part of "America's New War." But cutting off the money, if that is possible, could strangle the terrorists in ways that bombs never achieve.
At the very least, it's an important front in the war, and an important part. But clearly, not the only part of President Bush's day. So back to the White House and senior correspondent John King, with more on the president.
John, good evening.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening again to you, Aaron.
The administration making the case, it is learning more and more every day about how Osama bin Laden finances his terrorist network around the world. And the president today, saying he believes the operations conducted here in the United States and elsewhere around the world will have a significant impact, especially over time.
But the president also made a point today, we have heard him make before. He said from the very beginning, he has said this campaign, military, financial and otherwise, would go on for some time -- perhaps months, maybe years.
Tonight he called on a very special friend to come here in the White House to help him reinforce the point .
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): The two leaders claimed progress on every front oft he war, but also made a fresh appeal for patience.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is not one of these Kodak moments. There's no moment to this. This is a long struggle, in a different kind of war.
KING: Prime Minister Blair said a month of airstrikes have destroyed terrorist base camps and significantly weakened the Taliban. But he also suggested a growing role for ground operations in the weeks ahead.
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We are completely committed to seeing this thing through. I think people know that the strategy has to encompass more than airstrikes alone.
KING: Both were upbeat about the depth of international resolve. But one shared frustration on the diplomatic front is the continuing tension and violence between Israel and the Palestinians.
BLAIR: There is no way whatever in which our action in Afghanistan is conditional on progress in the Middle East. And indeed, one of the things that bin Laden wants to do is to try and hijack the Palestinian cause, for his own purposes.
BUSH: There's no doubt in my mind -- no doubt in my mind, we will bring Al Qaeda to justice, peace or no peace in the Middle East.
KING: Raids earlier in the day in the United States and several other countries targeted two financial networks the White House says funnel millions to bin Laden's terrorists. So Mr. Bush claims significant progress on the financial front.
BUSH: Remember, the war is beyond just Afghanistan. There are over 60 Al Qaeda organizations around the world, and today we struck a blow for freedom by cutting off their money -- one of their money sources.
KING: Dinner in the White House residence included talk of a multinational force to assist the transition to a post-Taliban government in Afghanistan, and a role for the United Nations in organizing such a government.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Now, Prime Minister Blair crossed the Atlantic on a supersonic Concorde jet just for the meeting. Headed back to London immediately after the dinner. A quick visit, but very important in the White House view, so that these two leaders at the head of the coalition could exchange notes and make those confident pledges in public of victory, no matter how long it takes.
Remember, there is a political front to this war as well. Those statements, in the White House view, quite necessary right now -- Aaron.
BROWN: A political front all over the world. Certainly in Europe, where we talked the other night -- maybe last night, it was -- about some waning public support for the effort?
KING: That's right, Aaron. And in one of the missions Prime Minister Blair had when he came here, he said one of ways to calm, quiet the skepticism in Europe, if you will, is talk more about the future. He said he believes the skepticism is based on the fact that he does not believe that his people, and other people in Europe, do not believe the United States and its allies are talking more about what a post-Taliban Afghanistan should look like.
That was why the prime minister came here tonight. He wants the president to talk more in public about it, and he wants the allies to be ready to move quickly once, in their view, the Taliban falls from power.
BROWN: John, thank you. Senior White House correspondent John King, on the White House lawn.
Now more on the money. Going after the money is a tried and true law enforcement strategy. Elliot Ness, after all, didn't bring down Al Capone. It was a tax audit that put him away, which explains why the Treasury Department is trying to do on the balance sheet what the Pentagon is hoping to do on the battlefield.
For details, once again we go to Washington and CNN's Susan Candiotti. Good evening, again. CANDIOTTI: Hello, Aaron.
We're talking about a network of money transfer offices -- the kind you pass all the time in your neighborhood. Fairly nondescript storefronts, the kind, officials say, which also sometimes handle cell phones and Internet services, like e-mails.
According to authorities, the offices in question -- in five states -- were slicing off transaction fees to help fund the Al Qaeda network. The president, calling those who run these operations, financiers of terror.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): In a sweeping bust designed to put a choke hold on Osama bin Laden's finances, U.S. Custom agents raided the offices of the Al Barakaat financial network. Search warrants served in several cities, including Dorchester, Massachusetts, Columbus, Ohio, Seattle and Minneapolis.
PAUL O'NEILL, TREASURY SECRETARY: They are a principle source of funding, intelligence and money transfers for bin Laden.
CANDIOTTI: Treasury Department officials charge the Al-Barakaat operation funneled tens of millions of dollars to Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.
O'NEILL: Millions of dollars have moved through these U.S. offices of Al Barakaat. This organization is now exposed for what it is: a pariah in the civilized world.
CANDIOTTI: As part of the crackdown, the U.S. froze assets of 62 organizations and individuals, mainly linked to the two financial networks, Al Taqua and Al Barakaat. Authorities say the networks operated under the guise of legitimate banking, telecommunication and construction companies.
BUSH: They provide terrorist supporters with Internet service, secure telephone communications, and other ways of sending messages and sharing information. They even arrange for the shipment of weapons.
CANDIOTTI: One of two people charged in the U.S. sweep appeared in court: Mohammad Hussein (ph), identified as a Barakaat financial officer. Hussein is being held without bond for operating a money transfer business without a license.
According to a criminal complaint filed in Boston, Hussein was surveyed going from his headquarters in Dorchester, Massachusetts, to this bank, where federal agents later seized deposit slips from January through September totaling more than $2 million.
Court documents say the money was tracked to Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates. Authorities say Barakaat skimmed transaction fees from its U.S. customers to fund terrorism. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are sending you know, for back to our families. We send you know, for some money. There is no terrorist here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: Officials say the majority of Al-Barakaat customers, mostly Somalies, had no clue what was going on. No one in the administration is calling this the knockout punch for Osama bin Laden's financing. They do describe it as a significant blow, and warned, more rounds are coming -- Aaron.
BROWN: Did they, in any way, Susan, allege that any of the people named today had any connection, financial or otherwise, to September 11?
CANDIOTTI: No, they are not drawing those two important links together at this time. Just like a lot of other things in this organization, they say no, they have no evidence to link that. They don't have any evidence to link the -- the -- oh, dear -- anthrax.
BROWN: Anthrax.
CANDIOTTI: To hijackings, either or to this.
BROWN: Susan, thank you. That happens to me all the time. Thank you very much. Susan Candiotti in Washington tonight.
On the subject of anthrax -- I was glad to be reminded of that -- I think we actually only said it on the program last night one time. Think about that. There hasn't been a new confirmed infection in days -- very good news, that. But this time has also afforded reporters an opportunity to step back and look more closely at how the anthrax attacks were handled.
And some of what we found is troubling. Consider the 911 call placed by a postal worker -- a man who knew he was sick, scared he was dying, and was desperately trying to get someone to listen. He failed. Maybe the system did, too. The man died. By the time someone did listen, it was too late.
Here's CNN's Eileen O'Connor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Thomas Morris Jr. needed help.
THOMAS MORRIS JR., ANTHRAX VICTIM: My breathing is labored, my chest feels constricted. I am getting air, but I -- if I get up and walk and what have you, it feels like I might just pass out.
O'CONNOR: From his home in Maryland, Morris told a 911 operator what he said he had already told his doctor.
MORRIS: I suspect that I might have been exposed to anthrax. It was last Saturday, a week ago last Saturday morning, at work.
O'CONNOR: That would have been October 13th, just four days after a letter addressed to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle laced with anthrax is postmarked in Trenton, New Jersey, October 9th.
MORRIS: A woman found the envelope, and I was in the vicinity. It had powder in it.
O'CONNOR: The letter to Senator Daschle was opened two days after that, on October 15th. But some of the senator staff members claim they remember getting the letter on the 12th -- the day before the incident Morris describes, and left it unopened until the 15th.
Still, in the following days, while the senator's office was getting tested, Morris asked if he might have been exposed.
MORRIS: They never let us know whether the thing was anthrax or not. They never treated the people who were around this particular individual and the supervisors who handled the envelope.
O'CONNOR: Meanwhile, Capitol Hill staffers, even those nowhere near where the letter was opened, were given the option of taking antibiotics.
O'CONNOR: I couldn't even find out if the stuff was or wasn't. I was told that it wasn't, but I have a tendency not to believe these people.
The postal inspector says the letter Morris described did test negative. Morris told his doctor about the powdery letter that had gone through Brentwood, and his concern that he had anthrax.
MORRIS: He said he didn't think it was that. He thought it probably was a virus, or something.
O'CONNOR: Postal authorities say they didn't give out antibiotics to their workers, because the CDC said the spores couldn't pass through the envelope. But that doesn't explain why they wouldn't give individuals like Morris, reporting possible exposure from a leakage, antibiotics, to be safe.
JOHN NOLAN, DEPUTY POSTMASTER GENERAL: We don't need you all to cause us to second-guess. We second-guess ourselves all the time and say, you know, what could we have done differently, knowing what we knew then.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Calling for the ambulance.
O'CONNOR: Morris was taken to Greater Southeast Community Hospital, where he died about 15 hours later. His colleague, Joseph Criseen (ph), died the next day.
NOLAN: Knowing what we know now, you'd love to be able to have time back. You'd love to be able to find a way to save those two individuals. But, unfortunately we didn't know it then.
O'CONNOR: Eileen O'Connor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Coming up still on NEWSNIGHT this evening: Rudy and the making of Mayor Mike. Some politics next. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We heard on one of our debate programs tonight a Republican Party bigwig, crowing about the party's big win last night in New York City. And a Republican did win here last night, billionaire Michael Bloomberg, but saying that this shows the party's new strength in the city might be considered a bit of a stretch.
Consider now a different reading -- a less partisan reading, at that. If your city is hit by a terrorist attack and the incumbent mayor becomes almost a superhero, his endorsement is huge. Call it the Rudy factor. A look at that now with senior political correspondent Candy Crowley, who joins us from Washington again.
Candy, good evening.
CROWLEY: Good evening, Aaron. Democrats think they scored some nice political hits during last even's off-year elections. But it's the one that got away that is causing political circles to buzz. Michael Bloomberg, the incoming Republican mayor of New York, took a victory lap in his city today. But outgoing Mayor Rudy Giuliani remains the man of the moment.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Rudy Giuliani: you saved a city, inspired a nation, got the next New York mayor elected on the strength of your word, what are you going to do next?
RUDY GIULIANI, MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Right field for the Yankees.
CROWLEY: Forgive his honor for dreaming out of his league. But you are looking at the second-most talked about Republican in the country; a man who, no kidding, can and pretty much did write his own ticket.
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NYC MAYOR-ELECT (R): This is our victory. A victory for our vision, and our faith in the future of the greatest city in the world.
CROWLEY: It was a stunner: Republican Michael Bloomberg, a self- made billionaire, but a novice politician, set punditry its ear Tuesday, winning the mayor's seat in overwhelmingly Democratic New York.
GIULIANI: I'm supporting Mike Bloomberg.
CROWLEY: Rudy, the king maker, is all the more amazing when you remember the pre-September 11th era. Prickly, uncompromising, and involved in a tacky, messy personal life, Giuliani was wearing thin on the city he has served for eight years. Now they can't get enough of him.
But since they can't have him for another term, they took his man. The good news for Bloomberg is that he got elected. The bad news is, the guy who got him there casts a very long shadow.
BLOOMBERG: I said I'd love to have him stay around and give me advice as much as he can. I think, unfortunately, he's going to want to take a few days off. He's going to want to go on a speaking tour. He's going to want to write a book.
CROWLEY: And anybody who has been around Rudy Giuliani thinks he's going to want to run for something again, sooner rather than later.
MARK WARNER (D), GOVERNOR ELECT, VIRGINIA: This is your victory, and the next four years belong to you!
CROWLEY: Pity the poor Democrats, who had a really nice evening elsewhere, in New Jersey and Virginia. In any other year, that would have given Democrats the spotlight, but this is a year like no other. And it's hard to compete with the sparkle of Rudy.
TERRY MCAULIFFE, CHMN., DEMOCRATIC NAT'L CMTE: And they elected a Democrat in Virginia, a Democrat in New Jersey, and a Democrat in Los Angeles earlier this summer. And we even elected a Democrat in New York City. Michael Bloomberg was a Democrat when this year began, and he ran on a Democratic message.
CROWLEY: OK, whatever works.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And for all those Rudy-ites out there, who cannot imagine New York City or the world of politics without Rudy Giuliani, this, from a close friend: it won't be long -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, I suspect that's true.
One of the things that's interesting to me, is just the way -- I don't know what the question here, by the way, is going to be -- in the way that life works, is if Rudy had run against Mrs. Clinton, and if Rudy had won, this extraordinary moment for both the city and the mayor never would have happened at all. And he would have been lesser for it, in a way.
CROWLEY: Absolutely. I mean, it's one of those things that came out that certainly -- you know, I looked at New York and I thought the city's worst moment brought out the absolute best in Rudy Giuliani. You know, there is no way to maneuver around fate and what's going to happen. They had the right man at the right place. He has gotten well-deserved accolades from it there, but for the awfulness of September 11th, is an entirely different story. BROWN: Candy, thank you. Next time I promise I'll ask a real question, and not a musing. Thank you. Candy Crowley in Washington tonight.
In a moment, back to the war when NEWSNIGHT continues. We'll talk about progress made. problems ahead with Former General Wesley Clark and David Hackworth, too. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One month into the war, and we want to spend some time tonight talking about how it's going. The Pentagon says war planes have flown about 2,000 missions so far. The Northern Alliance is on the move. More special forces are making their way into Afghanistan, and winter is coming.
In a moment, we'll talk strategy with Retired General Wesley Clark and Colonel David Hackworth. But first, some background from CNN's Bob Franken.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Even with all the worldwide resolve, even with the repeated calls for patience, the question has lurked since the first bombs slammed into Afghanistan: how long will this take? Months? Years?
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I said months, rather than years. That means it could be as long as 23.
(LAUGHTER)
RUMSFELD: I've got a full range from one -- there are two, to 23.
FRANKEN: One month into this new war in Afghanistan, it's almost exclusively a war fought from above Afghanistan. This is how the Pentagon likes to tell the bombing story: through the lens of the airplane nose cameras.
But the nose cameras do not show the other part of the bombing story: the misses, the unintended civilian casualties that U.S. officials say are few and regrettable. The Taliban have tried to exploit the casualties by conducting media tours.
Still, the barrage against Taliban troop positions grows more intense daily, two weeks after these memorable words.
LT. GEN. GREGORY NEWBOLD, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: I really do. I think, as I say, the combat power of the Taliban has been eviscerated.
FRANKEN: Pentagon officials wish the word "eviscerated" had never escaped that general's lips. Rather than being gutted, Taliban forces are still holding their ground. Al Qaeda and its leader Osama bin Laden are still presumed to be hiding in the country's vast web of caves.
So-called "bunker buster" bombs have failed to make much of a dent. Air power has limitations.
GEN. PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS: There are certain formations on the ground that dropping bombs on them has some effect, but not the final effect that you need.
FRANKEN (on camera): So far, as the Pentagon will say, the extent of the U.S. ground operations has been one commando attack and several special operations forces patrols, working with Northern Alliance troops, spotting targets for the bombers. But there are enough forces in the area for a much larger presence on the ground.
One month in, there are few reported casualties. But if there is an expanded ground assault, the risks would be much higher. The test of resolve back home much tougher, in the months ahead.
Bob Franken, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So we'll talk about this some. Joining us from Washington tonight, CNN consultant, Retired General Wesley Clark. And in Los Angeles this evening, Colonel David Hackworth, also retired. Colonel Hackworth, I think it's fair to say, knows a bit about war. He joined the Army at 15; saw combat first in Korea.
It's nice to see you both. Welcome. Colonel, I think the general outranks you, so he gets to go first. How's it going, do you think? Any reason to believe it is going less well, General, than Pentagon argues?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, MILITARY ANALYST: These operations are very difficult to gauge. You just can't tell how well it's going. What you have to do in an operation like this is not lose it at the outset. There's no question that in the long run, the preponderance American power is going to be brought to bear, and it is going to be decisive.
But in the meantime, we've gone at this step-by-step, with as close to a precision, discriminating attack as possible. I think it's gone about as well as it could go.
BROWN: What would "lose it at the beginning" mean, in this context, by the way?
CLARK: I think, if we had gone in and really plastered them with cruise missiles and killed thousands of innocent civilians, it would have been a heavy blow against the United States in the Islamic world. It would have been a heavy blow in Europe, and it would have cost us a lot of support, unnecessarily. We didn't do that.
I think if we had gone in and fumbled the ball with our aircraft, or our early ranger raid there on the ground, and taken big casualties and lost a lot of aircraft, then they would have had an enormous propaganda victory out of this. We didn't do that.
We're going at this in a measured, discriminating way. Remember, the objective is not Afghanistan. It's to attack the Taliban regime so that it exposes Al Qaeda to attack.
BROWN: Colonel, maybe this is the hanging curve ball question of the night, but I wonder if the question, how's it going, a month into this, is, while irresistible, especially relevant.
COL. DAVID HACKWORTH, U.S. ARMY (RET): Well, I think before the American people -- in spite of guys like Mr. Franklin that, when you read that report and listen to it, it really is discouraging -- when the American people slice into their turkey on Turkey Day, we will see the Taliban no longer in business.
And that will not be the end of round one. Then it will be, for the next six months or even year, mopping up the Taliban. This is a 30-round fight. We haven't even got in the middle of round one. It's not World War II. It's not Korea. It's not Vietnam, Desert Storm or a General Clark Serbian war -- a little bit of each.
But it's an absolutely different kind of war. And that's what the American people must understand. Not that garbage we heard from Franklin.
BROWN: Well, I'm sure he'll appreciate that.
HACKWORTH: I'm sure he's listening.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: David, wait a second. I want you to clarify one thing. Are you saying that you think by two weeks from tomorrow, the Taliban will have fallen. Is that what you're saying?
HACKWORTH: No, I'm saying they will be out of business. They will be no longer in command and control. They'll be in the high ground in some very cold days in some holes in the ground.
What we have here, what I'm seeing in my country -- and I've been serving this country as a reporter or a soldier for damn near 60 years, so I know a little bit about war -- is we have these uninformed pundits like Mr. Franklin, who learn about war around the water cooler, that are measuring this war with a World War II yardstick.
And my bottom line -- and I'm not a great supporter of any political party -- but Bush and boys are doing damn well. Let's not knock them.
BROWN: OK. I think we've made that point now. We'll move on from there.
General, what's next then? Where are we going with this? CLARK: Well, I think the key on an operation like this is don't put all your eggs in one basket. Don't have a single strategy that if something goes wrong it derails the whole operation. So there are a number of things moving here.
No. 1, more bases in the area. No. 2, increasing the air support and trying to free up the Northern Alliance and bring more pressure directly against the Taliban. No. 3, we can expect some more ground activity from the Rangers or another operation similar to that type. No. 4, I'm sure that someone in the Pentagon is saying, OK, if none of this works, aren't we going to have put in larger numbers of American troops and aren't they going to have to be more directly involved in the fighting and how would we do that?
So I think there's at least four different lines of thought all moving at this time.
BROWN: General, Colonel, thanks for joining us tonight. If we don't see you before, have a good Thanksgiving. Got a ways to go. Thank you.
CLARK: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: And you think this job is easy, don't you?
Talking with the Taliban, trying to get bin Laden years before the shooting war began. Christiane Amanpour with the story in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There's a widespread view in the Muslim world that if the United States really had proof of Osama bin Laden's guilt, it didn't make much of an effort to convince the Taliban of that. The United States never really tried to talk to the Taliban about Osama bin Laden, that theory goes. Why, they wonder, didn't U.S. diplomats work harder to make the case?
Well, tonight, we're learning that in fact they did. They worked really hard. Talks went on for years, right up until the days just before 9/11. Tonight, two of the negotiators are speaking about this for the first time. They spoke to CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of September 11th and especially since the bombing of Taliban targets in Afghanistan, former U.S. officials are now telling a story of public and secret meetings aimed at convincing the Taliban to bring Osama bin Laden to justice.
For nearly three years before September 11th, they met for talks with the Taliban in Islamabad, Pakistan; in Tashkent, Uzbekistan; Kabul, Afghanistan; and in Bonn, Germany; as well as in New York and Washington.
Former Clinton administration official Karl Inderfurth led many of the meetings.
AMB. KARL INDERFURTH, FORMER U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: I personally had, I think, about 20 meeting with Taliban officials at a very senior level, including Mullah Rabbani (ph), who was once No. 2 and has since passed away, Mullah Jaleel (ph), Mullah Mutaki (ph), the Taliban representative in New York, Mr. Mujahed (ph).
We spent many, many hours patiently discussing our concerns with the Taliban.
AMANPOUR: There were dozens of telephone conversations with the Taliban, including the foreign minister, and even once with the Taliban's reclusive leader, Mullah Omar.
INDERFURTH: The fact is we wanted to establish a direct line of communications with the Taliban. Despite our grave concerns about the direction the Taliban was heading, we wanted to make sure they heard directly from us. And in 1998, there was a telephone discussion that took place between a State Department official, Michael Melanovsky (ph), to Kandahar, where Mullah Omar resides, and we believe that Mullah Omar got on the phone and had a discussion briefly about this.
AMANPOUR: These contacts got under way in earnest only after the U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania in August 1998 that killed 224 people, including 12 Americans.
Armed with evidence against Osama bin Laden that eventually was presented in a New York court, the Clinton administration's ambassador for counterterrorism, Michael Sheehan, says he briefed the Taliban in detail in more than a dozen meeting and telephone calls.
MICHAEL SHEEHAN, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICIAL: We presented that information after those indictments were concluded in early 1999. The linkages back to al Qaeda and bin Laden's organization were very strong in the case of the East African bombings.
The groups, the cells, that conducted that operation had clear ties to known bin Laden lieutenants. There were links that were well established in communication, faxes and other means that I think built a very strong case and I think was well understood by any objective person who reviewed it.
AMBASSADOR KARL INDERFURTH, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: February of 1999, Mike Sheehan and I traveled to Islamabad to tell the Taliban a very important message, which was not only must they expel bin Laden so that he could be brought to justice, but hence forth, because we had every reason to believe that bin Laden was continuing to plot acts of terrorism. Henceforth, we would hold the Taliban itself responsible for those actions by bin Laden. So they were put on notice two years before September 11.
AMANPOUR: During the three year period that began with the embassy bombings, through the bombing of the USS Cole and until just before September 11, first the Clinton and then the Bush administration pursued a two-track policy with the Taliban: sanctions and negotiations. But none of it worked, even though U.S. officials say, at times, the Taliban indicated they might be interested in handing over bin Laden with a face-saving device. The U.S. said they could convene their own Islamic court as a first step, for instance.
SHEEHAN: We said, you can go ahead and do whatever you want regarding trials internally in Afghanistan if, at the end of day, you comply with the U.N. resolution that required that bin Laden be turned over to justice where he could be tried for his crime.
AMANPOUR: For instance, in Kenya, Tanzania or Saudi Arabia, places where bin Laden was accused of committing crime. The U.S. never insisted that bin Laden be handed over to a U.S. court.
INDERFURTH: If they wished to take some other action as a, basically, a face-saving device, that would be perfectly acceptable as long as it led to bin Laden being brought to justice. So we tried to take into account their problem. And indeed, many Taliban officials said that bin Laden was a burden to them.
But unfortunately, I think, that the key element here was the close relationship between Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden, and no matter how much evidence we presented, no matter how respectful we were of their trying to sort through what they call their problem, they were never going to give him up because Omar and bin Laden were too close.
AMANPOUR (on camera): Still, the Taliban claims the United States was not flexible enough in its negotiations. And U.S. critics accused the Clinton administration of failing to focus on the threat of terrorism from Afghanistan until it was too late.
Indeed, the Taliban was not put on the U.S. terrorist watchlist, in part, because the U.S. didn't want to recognize the Taliban as the rightful rulers of Afghanistan.
(voice-over): Karl Inderfurth admits the Clinton administration was initially more focused on ending the civil war and heroin production in Afghanistan as well as on the rights of women.
KARL INDERFURTH, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE, SOUTH ASIAN AFFAIRS: And we were also concerned about terrorism. But it was the bombings in East Africa in August of 1998 that focused the great attention of the U.S. government across the board on what to do about bin Laden's presence there.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Still ahead from us on NEWSNIGHT, decontaminating the Hart Senate Office Building. Plan A on hold, we'll look at plan B and then some when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: It sounded like an unbelievable plan to clean up the anthrax contaminated Hart Senate Office Building. The days would be spent pumping the building full of chlorine gas. The gas goes in, the anthrax dies. A few weeks, a few million dollars later, everything is right. Wrong.
Here's CNN's Kate Snow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The last of the House office buildings reopened this week. Inside, plywood partitions wall off three offices where small traces of anthrax were found. Authorities are still determining what method will be used to clean up those offices.
But the bigger problem is on the other side of the Capitol grounds. Over on Constitution Avenue, the Hart Senate Office Building remains closed, sealed off as scientists try to figure out the best way to remove the anthrax inside.
Last week, the Environmental Protection Agency said it had a plan, injecting chlorine dioxide gas into all 10 million cubic feet of the Hart Building.
DR. PAUL SCHAUDIES, CONSULTANT, EPA: The chlorine dioxide reacts with the proteins so it'll take that spore that's now a hardball and essentially make a whiffle ball out of it, so it can no longer germinate.
SNOW: It was billed as the quickest, safest and least disruptive method. The papers and files of 50 senators could be saved. The gas would have no health effects and leave little trace behind.
But a peer review by other scientists uncovered a problem. The chlorine dioxide gas has to be concentrated enough to kill the anthrax. Engineers worried the building is so big, with varying levels of humidity and temperature, that the gas might not reach every area with the same level of concentration.
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: I understand the frustration and disappointment of senators and staff who have been displaced by the Hart Building closure. We have all been greatly inconvenienced. And we are anxious to get back to the regular order in our offices.
But we are dealing with a deadly bacteria. Safety must come before convenience.
SNOW: Instead, the EPA is working on a new plan, using several methods. Most of the hot spots where anthrax was detected are being treated with antibacterial foam. The foam works like carpet cleaner. It goes on wet and dries to a powder within about an hour. Liquid cleaners, like bleach, might also be used.
Chlorine dioxide gas would be pumped into just one corner of the Hart Building, where the anthrax-tainted letter was opened. The gas would also be used to clean out the building's ventilation system.
(on camera): When that's all done, the building would be thoroughly tested to make sure it's anthrax-free. But that plan too is subject to scrutiny, underscoring the uncertainty of what has become a new science: anthrax decontamination.
Kate Snow, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We're joined now by Dr. Bethany Grohs, who has a job that's about three parts horrifying and one part fascinating. She's an EPA scientific coordinator for the Hart Building cleanup. It's nice to see you.
DR. BETHANY GROHS, HART BUILDING CLEANUP COORDINATOR: Thank you, Aaron. Glad to be here.
BROWN: Just because this seems to be a night to take a shot at our correspondents, did that report seem to work for you, seem to be on the money just now?
GROHS: Yes, it did.
BROWN: OK, I got that out of the way.
I don't mean this in any way jokingly, but are you making this up a bit as you go along?
GROHS: I would have to say no, that we're not.
I think we have enough scientists and we've taken the time to make sure we are doing the job correctly as we do it. The EPA's mandate is to protect human health and the environment and that's exactly what we are doing at the Hart Building.
BROWN: But, when you have something like anthrax, which I think we both acknowledged earlier, very little -- relatively little -- is known about, isn't there -- doesn't there, almost by definition, have to be a certain amount of educated guesswork here as to what we're working...
(CROSSTALK)
GROHS: Certain amount of uncertainty, yes. And that's why the confirmation testing that we do after we choose a remedy and do a remedial action is so important because that allows us, gives us that feedback. And did the action that we take have the effect we wanted and do we feel comfortable protecting public health with that treatment.
BROWN: Was there any pressure early on to come up with a quick solution?
GROHS: There really wasn't. I mean, we -- the EPA is well aware that this process has been very disruptive to the Congress. And what has been so amazing to me is how many different agencies are working together on this problem. And you have FBI, you have FEMA, CDC, NIOSH, EPA is a part of the group that's doing this. And everybody has come together on the Capitol Hill incident and is giving their area of expertise and we're coming up with a solution together.
BROWN: That's the maximum number of acronyms you can use if you....
GROHS: Exactly, you know you work for a federal agency when you...
BROWN: Do you think you have it now? Do you think you got a plan now?
GROHS: Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, when we wrote our initial proposal for remediating the Hart Building, we were encouraged by the chlorine dioxide gas because it's a great way to take care of the anthrax bacteria and not have to destroy all of the office contents.
We got a lot of feedback that encouraged us to start small with the fumigation and test it as we go and move up to a bigger scale if we can. I mean, we have to remember that we have multiple remedies available for our use. There are several liquid remedies, HEPA vacuuming, and the chlorine dioxide gas. So we are going to use a combination of those remedies to provide the best treatment for that building and get the senators back in as soon as possible.
BROWN: 10 seconds -- how long is soon as possible? Do you know?
GROHS: It's very hard to judge. We are continually testing as we go along. And the results of our testing will either send us -- let us know it's clear or tell us we have to go back in and do more work. So it's very hard to predict.
BROWN: So, yet again, we should be patient.
GROHS: Exactly, yes.
BROWN: Thank you. Dr. Grohs, it was nice to meet you.
GROHS: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Come back again, I hope it works for you.
GROHS: All right.
BROWN: Thank you.
Coming up, tomorrow's news tonight: front pages from the Austin, Texas and Salem, Oregon papers. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: I was watching the car chase from earlier.
You caught me. It's starting to feel my like a regular broadcast now. News is still breaking out all around us, but we have already found time to do one predictable thing every night and we do mean the good kind of predictable.
Looking at tomorrow's news tonight, newspaper reporters and editors from outside New York. I'm not sure that is necessarily fair. In Austin, Texas, Fred Zipp, the managing editor of the "Austin American Statesman." And in Portland, Oregon, Richard Aguirre, the state editor for the "Salem Statesman Journal." What are the odds of "Statesman" appearing twice in one introduction?.
Welcome to you both. Let me start in Austin, if I can. Fred, give me your lead story tomorrow, on the front page.
FRED ZIPP, MANAGING EDITOR, "AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN": We have a story about the crackdown by the Bush Administration on, or the Justice Department, on terrorist assets around the world.
BROWN: So, you are leading with The Story. Is your front page dominated by The Story, or are there lots of local and other state issues there?
ZIPP: We have five stories. Three of them are war related, and then we have a good local-political -- statewide political fight, kind of a mud slinging contest involving a former attorney general, and an advance on the summit next week in Crawford.
BROWN: OK, and Richard, I have a feeling that the biggest story in Oregon these days really isn't a story but it was a decision by the Justice Department on assisted suicide, am I wrong?
RICHARD AGUIRRE, STATE EDITOR, "SALEM STATESMAN JOURNAL": No, you are right, Aaron. In fact, the decision yesterday by Attorney General John Ashcroft to rule that DEA agents should go after doctors who prescribe medication to help terminal patients end their life was the big story of the day in Oregon today. And it will continue to be that in our paper tomorrow. The Oregon attorney general today went to court and filed for an injunction to try to block John Ashcroft's order from taking effect.
BROWN: We actually want come back maybe in a day or so and spend a lot of time on this, but I'm curious, did knock The Story off the front page, or did this knock it below the folds?
AGUIRRE: The terrorist story remained above the fold. I don't know if you can see this, but the Ashcroft story was dominating our front page today, and will have a pretty substantial presence in the newspaper tomorrow.
BROWN: Let's talk a little bit about how news papering has changed a bit. Fred, is this story, The Story, impossible to compete with television on, television being on 24 hours a day here, on this thing? ZIPP: It's impossible to compete on a breaking basis. But what we try do is give people some insight into peripheral issues. We try to teach people about Islam, about politics of southwest Asia, history of southwest Asia, the conduct of the wars, war tactics and strategy. We try to add information.
But we can't ignore the responsibility to report breaking news, so we do.
BROWN: Richard, I use this word advisedly, I know it will come out a little wrong here, but do you think your editors and reporters are enjoying a different focus, having to focus on this national and international issue in ways they hadn't before?
AGUIRRE: Aaron, I think it is somewhat frustrating for editors and reporters because out instinct of course is to try to cover our community and the completeness and wholeness of it. And when we have a report originating from Washington, from Afghanistan, from Pakistan, it's hard for to us grasp, sometimes, what the clearest angle is of the story.
We, similarly to the Austin paper, have been trying provide a lot of information, to provide context for readers, trying to give a sense of what officials in Oregon are doing, what potential terrorist threats exist in Oregon, as well as providing information for younger people to be able to understand what is going on and to have a context of it.
So, to a large degree over the last couple of months, the front page has been dominated by this story. But we are still trying to provide a context for people understanding what is going on.
BROWN: Richard, Fred, thank you for joining us tonight. These are two good newspapers. We are glad to have you with us this evening.
ZIPP: Thanks very much.
AGUIRRE: Thank you.
BROWN: We will be right back. We have much more tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In a city that literally invented throwing trash out the window and calling it a parade, the sight of paper raining down from the sky has new meaning since we saw tons of it falling on September 11 from the World Trade Center towers.
So you'll understand the double take some of us did when we saw this video today. It is not exactly ticker tape, no one has that anymore. At least it was benign. It was a parade to honor the Arizona Diamondbacks, which beat the New York Yankees in the World Series; 300,000 people turned out on the streets of Phoenix to welcome home their team. And of course, if they'd waited another month they'd have had 600,000 people because the snowbirds would have arrived. A reminder, the president speaks in Atlanta tomorrow at 8:00. We will cover that live and we hope you will join us for that and we are back here tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time as well. We will see you then. Good night.
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