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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Osama bin Laden Tells Newspaper he has Nuclear Weapons; The Northern Alliance Moves Into Mazar-e-Sharif
Aired November 09, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. This is the second draft of this page tonight. The first draft was a somewhat meandering walk through a week that seemed to have lacked a single major event -- proof, of what the administration has been saying, we thought. This is not going to be about great moments, and hopefully no longer about huge tragedies. It's going to be about little moments that eventually fill in a picture of a safer, better world, eventually.
And then about an hour ago, a report from a Pakistani newspaper. Osama bin Laden, the paper reports, said in an interview that he has nuclear and chemical weapons, and is willing to use them.
Now, that's what the paper says. Who knows if it's true? And we're not here to report it as fact. What we are saying is that any sense that a slow week means a diminished threat is probably silly. Maybe it's not this threat, but none of us ought to get very comfortable until far more pieces of this puzzle have fallen into place.
As for the real news tonight, the biggest story of the day is more symbolic than strategic. The Northern Alliance, the anti-Taliban army, may have captured Mazar-e Sharif, the first major breakthrough of the war. But at the Pentagon today, the word on that was caution. It's fluid, they said, of a Taliban retreat -- not settled yet.
REAR ADM. JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY OPS. DIRECTOR: There is a lot of dust in the air right now. There are skirmishes happening across these various areas fronts, if you want to call them, as such. And with that dust in the air, it's very hard to tell exactly what's going on, except maybe in some very discrete areas.
BROWN: In Pakistan, another Friday of anti-American protests, just as President Bush prepares to shore up a nervous coalition tomorrow at the United Nations here in New York.
And anthrax, remember that? We've had a much needed break in the bioterror, but today, some anthrax spores found in several New Jersey postal facilities.
And the one good thing about going to war is coming home in one piece. And there were great reunions today in Virginia, and we'll show you more of that soon. We'll also talk with Secretary of State Colin Powell, ahead of the president's U.N. visit tomorrow, and the editor of the "New Republic," who says America's new war can't be won unless the country puts more people on the ground and prepares for casualties.
Plus, a one-of-a-kind camera for a disaster like no other, documenting the heroes of September 11th. So even on a slow day in a slow week, there is plenty to report. The headlines first, from around the world, beginning in northern Afghanistan and Ben Wedeman.
Ben, the headline there.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron. If true, the fall of Mazar-e Sharif opens up great opportunities for the Northern Alliance, as well as the U.S.-led coalition, possibly creating new routes of supply to north, as well as an opportunity for the U.S. to open a staging point for attacks against central and southern Afghanistan -- Aaron.
BROWN: Ben, thank you. We'll be back with you shortly.
A busy day for the president, ahead of a very important one tomorrow. On duty at the White House, correspondent Major Garret. Major, the headline.
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. You know, so much has changed in the world since September 11th, but one scary geopolitical standoff has not. India and Pakistan remain bitter nuclear-armed rivals, and at the White House today, President Bush urged Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee to stay focused on the task at hand, crushing the Taliban.
He'll make the same pitch tomorrow in New York when he meets with the Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf -- Aaron.
BROWN: The headline at the White House, and now on anthrax and the investigation. Eileen O'Connor, the headline from you, please.
EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the FBI releases some details about the kind of person they believe sent the anthrax-laced letters to media outlets and Senator Tom Daschle, with an appeal to anyone who might know a person fitting the description, call the FBI -- Aaron.
BROWN: Eileen, thank you. We'll be back with all you in just a moment. We'll start, though, with a city critical to Alexander the Great, Ghenghis Khan, the Soviets and now the United States, Mazar-e Sharif, the tomb of the saint. The place in northern Afghanistan that the Northern Alliance tonight claims to have captured from the Taliban.
This would be a big break for the United States, maybe opening up a key supply route from Uzbekistan. But officials tell CNN, there is no clear victory yet, and even if victory comes, it's not clear how long the alliance can hold on to it. A couple of reports tonight, beginning with CNN military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With only incomplete battle reports coming from Mazar-e Sharif, the Pentagon is not yet ready to declare the strategic northern crossroads under the control of the U.S.-backed rebels.
VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: The situation on the ground is fluid. Until things settle and we see where forces are after a day or two, our inclination is to withhold comment. What we have seen is encouraging.
MCINTYRE: After 34 days and more than 8,000 bombs, U.S. intelligence reports say the air assault has taken a toll on the Taliban. As casualties climb, some Taliban forces are retreating, and others are defecting to the opposition. In some cases, entire small units have changed sides, said U.S. officials.
But the Pentagon remains concerned that the Taliban could counterattack.
STUFFLEBEEM: We don't know enough yet to know what's been taken, will it be held, and then therefore, will there be move movement from that side?
MCINTYRE: While the U.S. bombs cave complexes, like this near Herat in western Afghanistan, more than half of its strikes are now aimed at supporting the rebel advance in the north, with U.S. jets trying to keep Taliban forces on the run.
If the anti-Taliban rebels do hold Mazar-e Sharif, the U.S. could fly in food and military aid rather than drop it from the air. And even more relief supplies could be trucked in over land from Uzbekistan. But sources say the Pentagon currently has no plans to base combat aircraft, either fighter jets or helicopter gunships, on Afghan soil.
Instead, the Pentagon hopes to use land bases in neighboring Tajikistan to step up the pace of the bombing and cut reaction time, as it continues to provide air cover to the Northern Alliance.
And it's making plans to move a second group of amphibious assault ships to waters off Pakistan. That would bring to more than 4,000, the number of U.S. Marines that would be ready to go ashore if ordered.
(on camera): The fall of Mazar-e Sharif would be both a military and psychological victory for the United States, which so far has been unable to point to tangible results on the ground after more than a month of bombing.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So the news is encouraging, but it may not be over yet. A few years back, the rebels tried to hold Mazar-e Sharif, and they could not. Keep that in mind. For the latest how they are doing now, or at least how they say they are doing, an important distinction, we go back to CNN's Ben Wedeman, who's in Northern Afghanistan.
It's morning there, so we say good morning to you.
WEDEMAN: Yes, good morning, Aaron.
Reports continue to come in, claims from the Northern Alliance that they have taken control of the city. The reports out of there are somewhat unclear -- anywhere between 500 and 1,500 Taliban troops, captured. That, out of a garrison of approximately 3,000 before this latest push on Mazar-e Sharif took place.
They -- of course, these reports, as usual, aren't possible to verify because the only sources there are the Northern Alliance, itself. But certainly, if this city has fallen, it represents a dramatic strategic change on the ground. Now those Taliban forces in northwestern Afghanistan could be essentially isolated from the rest of the country. This would represent a great broadening of the -- or expansion of the amount of territory controlled by the Northern Alliance.
The question is, what do they do next? The winter is about to set in, that's traditionally a season in which it's even more difficult to move around Afghanistan. And the visibility becomes very bad. Generally, the whole job of resupplying forces and moving forces around becomes very difficult. So it's clear there seems to be a major emphasis on making progress on the ground now, before the weather makes that very difficult -- Aaron.
BROWN: A couple of questions tied into one here. Do you -- was this a massive assault? Do you have any idea how many Northern Alliance forces were sent into the city? Are they saying that?
WEDEMAN: No. We don't have that sort of information. What the Northern Alliance is claiming is that it was a two-pronged assault, that it involved many troops. They don't go into exactly how many. There are unconfirmed reports that there were possibly U.S. forces involved, but I must say those are unconfirmed. And very much what we're hearing, is what the Northern Alliance is saying, and that's always difficult to confirm.
But, clearly, given the size of the city, which is about 200,000 people in normal times, which aren't very normal here, would require a fairly large force. Now, one of the theories that's going around is that essentially, there was some sort of defection by a major number of Taliban forces in Mazar-e Sharif, which made this dramatic change possible.
After all, the takeover of the city took only a matter of hours, which is quite stunning, given the military experience of both sides, and their ability to put up quite a long and difficult fight -- Aaron.
BROWN: Ben, thank you.
Just take a look behind you. We're all looking behind you a little bit, to see -- it says a lot about what Afghanistan is, these days. Thank you for your efforts today. I know it's been tricky for you. Thank you.
For days now, we have been calling it the strategic city of Mazar-e Sharif. Now's a good time to talk about how significant it really is, how much of this is strategic, how much is psychological. So we're joined again by retired General Wesley Clark, CNN analyst, who's in Little Rock, Arkansas tonight.
General, nice to see you.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET), FMR. NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: A little bit of both, strategic and psychological?
CLARK: I think so. I think it does open up some operational possibilities, the line of communication to Uzbekistan, the ability to isolate the Taliban forces there, the ability to amass forces from the front north of Kabul, all the way across. So it gives the Northern Alliance much more flexibility and much more sustainability.
The real question, though, is what's the impact on the Taliban? The loss of the troops in the city, if they lost those troops, that's of some value. The big value is, first, I think it validates the approach that General Franks is using, which is to use air power and the striking power from the air, to reinforce and support, and really break through the enemy in front of the Northern Alliance on the ground.
That will work in open areas. It won't work in cities, where there is civilian populations. But it certainly worked on these trench works around all of the cities that were defending the approach up to Mazar-e Sharif.
Secondly, it establishes the inevitability, in the minds of the Taliban, that they cannot fight against this kind of U.S. air power. They simply can't stop it. Wherever they choose to defend and dig in, if it's accessible from the air, they will be attacked and eventually destroyed. And then they'll be overrun by the Northern Alliance. So it's very important, that way.
BROWN: General, let's assume for a minute that the Taliban commanders aren't going to throw up their hands and say, "we give up," at this point. If you're the Taliban commander then, do you try and take the city back, or do you retreat to someplace where you have, perhaps, better supply lines, better command and control generally, and perhaps defend the capital?
CLARK: Well, if you had the ability to really control the population, and they were on your side, you might retreat back into the city. You might try to draw the Northern Alliance forces in there in a trap. But in Mazar-e Sharif, the Taliban really haven't controlled that city except through intimidation and force. And they're more likely to be destroyed if they try to hide amongst the civilians and small groups.
So I think that tactic won't work there. They'll probably try extricate whatever forces they can, and rejoin the Taliban forces elsewhere.
BROWN: Is this as major a breakthrough, as I think some of us have described it today, myself included, or does it seem large because it is the first breakthrough of its kind?
CLARK: Well, I think it's significant strategically, because it shows that the process works. I think it establishes the inevitability. How much operational advantage its gives remains to be seen. After all, Osama bin Laden is not up in that part of Afghanistan, so far as everyone believes. They believe he's in the area around Kandahar, where the majority of the cave complexes are, where he's in with the Pashtun tribesmen, where he's surrounded. That's the traditional area for the Pashtuns.
And so, we may still be hundreds of miles away from getting towards Osama bin Laden. It begs the question of, what's going to happen if the Northern Alliance takes Kabul, takes Mazar-e Sharif? Does the Taliban just collapse, or do they simply fall back onto the Pashtun tribesmen around Kandahar and hold on? We don't know the answer to that.
But we do know that the process that's set up thus far, using air power with the Northern Alliance on the ground, has worked in this case. People were questioning, could it work? It looks like it's worked. I think that is very significant.
BROWN: General, thank you. It's good to talk to you. Have a good weekend. Wesley Clark in Little Rock. It reminds us that we've talked an awful lot about the northern part of the country, and very little about the complex southern part of Afghanistan.
U.S. campaign, meanwhile, goes on, as we've been talking about. But the U.S.S. Enterprise will not be part of it, at least not for a while. The Big E, as it is called, the longest and fastest aircraft carrier in the Navy, steaming back towards Norfolk, Virginia to get some maintenance. That's 18 months worth of maintenance.
The flight crews who launched some of the first strikes on Afghanistan did get back home today, and the sailors on board get their own family reunion within a matter of hours. CNN's Jean Meserve on board the ship today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First light, last flight, for the air wing aboard the USS Enterprise.
CAPTAIN JAMES WINIFELD, USS ENTERPRISE: It's like the end of the football season. You sort of hate to see the team disband, especially when you've had such a successful season.
MESERVE: A successful season, some of the first strikes on Afghanistan. Six-hundred and eight sorties in all, 800,000 pounds of precision guided bombs dropped and targeted at military and terrorist targets.
CAPTAIN DAVE MERCER, COMMANDER 8TH AIR WING: Certainly the intent there is certainly to not strike any civilian targets.
MESERVE (on camera): But they get hit.
MERCER: At times they do, yes.
MESERVE: And?
MERCER: That is the price of warfare.
MESERVE (voice-over): Another price of warfare, separated families. Friday the flight crews made it home. And it was impossible to tell who was more excited after almost seven months apart, the pilots or their families.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Enterprise always ready on arrival. We drop bombs, drop them out the cockpit.
MESERVE: It's beat pounded out on a fighter wing, a rhyme of pride and power about what this carrier group has accomplished. A pride shared, it seems, by every one of the 3,000 sailors on board the Enterprise, still hours from home.
BRIAN FROMM, USS ENTERPRISE: Being the first carrier there and to start everything off makes me feel very good. And it's the reason we all joined the military. You know, to defend our country.
MESERVE: Those on the Enterprise have been taping up, packing up, cleaning up, and looking ahead.
Just being on land, I haven't seen land in almost -- it's been a good while since I've seen land. I'm tired of water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I missed her walking. Missed her talking. So I can't wait to get back and see her running around the house.
MESERVE: They only have to wait a little after sunrise before they have their chance to relish family, friends and all the familiar simple things they have gone without for so long. It's a different world. They say they're different men. But some things don't change.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, on board the USS Enterprise.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Up next, the FBI paints the profile of an anthrax killer, as NEWSNIGHT continues for Friday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Many people who know the president say he does his best work one on one. He's getting a chance to prove it this weekend. He's got a meeting with Pakistan's president, and today the president met with the prime minister of India. And he needs support of both countries and that is no easy feat, given that these two countries pretty much hate each other.
More from CNN's Major Garrett, live at the White House tonight. Major, good evening.
GARRETT: Good evening, Aaron.
The president awoke this morning to published criticism about the war in Afghanistan from the Indian prime minister, and criticism about the approach to Middle East peace from the Saudi foreign minister. By the end of the day, the president had met both critics face to face at the Oval Office.
White House officials described the conversations as good. They say the criticism of the president barely surfaced at all -- proof positive that maintaining the strength of the coalition is a never ending process, one that requires more than a trace of presidential patience.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): The president's visit from the Indian prime minister served once again to highlight the strenuous work of maintaining the anti-terror coalition. India wants the U.S. to keep an eye on another key partner, Pakistan. The bitter rivals, both armed with nuclear weapons, fight over the disputed region of Kashmir, even as the U.S. pleads for a total focus on defeating the Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan.
BUSH: There needs to be a commitment by all of us to do more than just talk. To achieve certain objectives, to cut off the finances, to put diplomatic pressure on the terrorists. Some cases, to help militarily. But any case, stand firm.
GARRETT: But Mr. Vajpayee said India suffers from terrorism, too -- in Kashmir, terrorism, India believes, Pakistan tacitly encourages. The Indian leader said the September 11th attacks have sharpened awareness of terrorism everywhere.
ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE, INDIAN PRIME MINISTER: This terrible tragedy has created the opportunity to determine global response to terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, wherever it exists and under whatever name.
GARRETT: Eager to keep his global coalition intact, the president signaled violence in Kashmir could in the future, fall under the Bush doctrine on yielding assault on global and regional terrorism.
BUSH: I think there's one universal law, and that's terrorism is evil. And all of us must work to reject evil.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GARRETT: In addition to meeting with the Saudi foreign minister, the president today also spent time with top officials from the Czech Republic and Morocco -- an opportunity, officials say, to share with all concerned, an update on the next phase in the war on Afghanistan: upcoming U.S. humanitarian efforts and fresh diplomatic initiatives for a post-Taliban government in Afghanistan -- Aaron. BROWN: I want to try and ask something, but I'm not precisely sure where the question is, so hang with me for a second. I talked earlier with Secretary of State Powell and I asked him about the Saudi foreign minister's criticism. And he did, as all administration officials do, in every administration, pretty much danced around it.
But I found that criticism very blunt, unusually blunt, from a diplomat, and not that easy to dance away from. I'm not sure where the question is in that, but why don't you talk about it for a minute or so?
GARRETT: Aaron, Bush administration officials do not in any way deny that the comments from the Saudi foreign minister -- in essence, he said the president's hands-off, or what he characterized as his hands-off approach to the Middle East peace process, and specifically his hands-off approach to the Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat, would make a sane man go insane.
The Saudi foreign minister said that in fact the differences were not so great, between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And if the United States were to involve itself directly -- there's a specific reference to Mr. Bush, in fact, inviting Mr. Arafat either here to the White House or seeing him up in New York at the United Nations General Assembly -- that might cause a breakthrough.
That might make the United States something the Saudi foreign minister says it currently is not: an honest broker in this peace process. While the U.S. officials here said, well, that didn't come up in the conversation face to face between the president and the Saudi foreign minister, nevertheless, they said published reports in newspapers don't always incorporate all of the dimensions of the relationship in any two nations.
And that's where they're leaving it right now, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you. Major Garrett on the White House lawn this evening. It's starting to get cold in Washington, looks like.
On to anthrax now. We haven't said too much about anthrax this week, but today a few developments to report. More anthrax found in New Jersey, and investigators have roughed out a profile of the person. And they do believe it is one person who sent out the anthrax letters that we know about.
We'll let CNN's Eileen O'Connor deliver the punch line on all of this. Eileen, good evening to you.
O'CONNOR: Good evening. Well, they're asking for people to look for a person that fits that profile. And now some people might call it a sign of desperation, but the FBI, Aaron, prefers to call it availing themselves of an investigative tool that has been successful before for them, and that is public help.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): With scientific analysis of the anthrax still ongoing, FBI behavioral analysts believe it's most likely one person that sent the anthrax-laced letters to NBC, the "New York Post" and Senate majority leader Tom Daschle, though they're not ruling out a group, or even Al Qaeda, according to FBI officials.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: They think it's a male individual with some technical expertise. A person who tends to be willing to hold a grudge for a while, to get back at individuals.
O'CONNOR: After developing a profile, based on the wording of the letters, the writing, the anthrax and the method of delivery, the FBI is appealing to the public to look for an individual who is most likely a person who has a scientific background, or who is very interested in science. If employed, has little contact with the public, and who may work in a lab. Has taken steps to ensure his own safety, like taking antibiotics. Doesn't like direct confrontation, and has a familiarity with the Trenton, New Jersey area, where the letters were mailed.
The use of dashes instead of slashes on the dates, and the particular way the person wrote the letter 1, analysts believe, indicate a careful, methodical person.
ASHCROFT: A person who picks his targets carefully, took right care to have the right addresses and to do things rather scientifically. A person with scientific expertise and capacity.
O'CONNOR: FBI officials admit there are thousands of labs possessing anthrax and other agents, unregistered and difficult to track.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: The thing that came through to me, frankly, is that absent leads from the public, this may not get solved.
O'CONNOR: Adding to the problem: FBI officials admit it would have taken only about $2,500 worth of lab equipment to produce the anthrax found -- even the more sophisticated, refined sample found in the letter sent to Senate majority leader Tom Daschle.
Putting pressure on investigators is the discovery that four additional New Jersey postal facilities have tested positive for anthrax. Those facilities are being closed overnight for cleaning, which is not good enough for some.
JIM BURKE, AMERICAN POSTAL WORKERS UNION: We want to be treated equally. We want to be treated just like the Supreme Court justices. Close the place down until it's clean, thoroughly clean, and then we have no problem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'CONNOR: The FBI is also coming under criticism for a lack of scientific expertise in this field. Now, they deny that. But there's no denying that they do need the public's health -- help in cracking this case. FBI officials note that the possible similarities between the person who sent the anthrax letters and serial bombers, like Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, they're trying to point that out. But the trouble is, it took 17 years and a tip from his brother to close that case -- Aaron.
BROWN: Eileen, thank you. Public health.
O'CONNOR: Yeah, health. Help.
BROWN: It's been a long week for all of us. Thank you. Have a good weekend.
As NEWSNIGHT continues, the diplomatic side of America's new war. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we said, the president's speech to the U.N. General Assembly tomorrow, an important speech at a critical time. More on the plan from senior White House correspondent John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president will salute nations supporting the war on terrorism, but also issue a pointed reminder that many countries face tough choices in the weeks and months ahead.
BUSH: The time of sympathy is over. We appreciate the condolences. Now is a time for action.
KING: His speech to the United Nations General Assembly comes two months after the terrorist attacks, and one month into the U.S. military campaign.
LEE HAMILTON, WOODROW WILSON CENTER: In recent days, we've found a lot of stresses and strains in the coalition, a lot of questions being asked, a lot of hesitation, less than full cooperation from some key countries, and the president wants to shore that coalition up and to make it firmer and stronger and more united.
KING: Mr. Bush does not want the United Nations involved in military decisions, but he does want it to take a lead role in building a post-Taliban government in Afghanistan.
CONDOLEEZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We are trying very hard to -- to send the message this can't be a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) solution.
KING: As always at such gatherings, important meetings on the sidelines. Pakistan is a critical U.S. ally in the campaign, but President Musharraf is again calling for a pause in the bombing during the coming Muslim holy period of Ramadan. Mr. Bush will not agree to that.
Not long ago, this year's general assembly was viewed as a potential turning point in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decided not to attend and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat will not get his long-sought first face-to-face meeting with Mr. Bush, this despite Arafat's attempts to quiet anti-American and pro-Osama Bin Laden demonstrations in the Palestinian territories. The White House says Arafat hasn't done enough.
RICE: It is extremely to separate yourself from international terrorists. You cannot help with us al Qaeda and hug Hezbollah. That's not acceptable. Or Hamas.
KING: U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan arranged a Sunday memorial service at the rubble that once was the World Trade Center, and administration officials say they hope a look at the devastation will help other leaders understand the president's resolve, and his view that nations that do not help the United States will be considered to be helping the terrorists. John King, CNN, the White House.
BROWN: Earlier today I spoke with Secretary of State Colin Powell, ahead of the president's visit to the U.N.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think President Bush will make his first appearance before the United Nations general assembly and he will thank them for what they have done.
He will also take note of the fact, I think, that the United States is doing a great deal for the U.N. We have paid our arrears, and that's good news.
At the same time, he will however tell them that the job is not yet done. It isn't enough just to sign up initially for the coalition, but that we expect all coalition members to give more than just rhetorical support, to give real support or intelligence support, chasing the financial infrastructures. Some members are able to provide military support.
But I think he will challenge the international community to continue to pursue this campaign against terrorism to its end: the destruction of terrorism as a -- as a challenge to the civilized world.
BROWN: Mr. Secretary, is it possible that this coalition gets more complicated as the campaign expands, that countries that may be supportive against al Qaeda might not be so supportive against Hezbollah or Hamas or groups like that?
POWELL: That's -- that's possible. Every nation is sovereign and free to choose what it will do. What is most -- most striking about this coalition is that despite all the claims that it would start to weaken, it would fall apart, it wouldn't last -- guess what?
We are two months into this and the coalition is stronger than ever. It has prevailed. We have more and more countries coming into the financial aspects of this, chasing down terrorist financial infrastructure. We have more countries that are offering up military troops in the -- for use in the post-Taliban peacekeeping arrangements that might be necessary.
The president has had a steady stream of visitors this week: President Chirac, Prime Minister Blair. Prime Minister Vaypayee just finished his visit here. All of them showing their support for what we are doing and congratulating President Bush on the leadership he is showing in pulling this great coalition together.
BROWN: Mr. Secretary, I'd like to ask you about some comments the Saudi foreign minister made. Unusually blunt, it seemed to me. He just -- he said he was angrily frustrated by the administration's failure of the new peace initiative in the Middle East. Enough, he said, to make a sane man go mad. Want to react to that?
POWELL: Well, I was with the foreign minister last evening. We had a good conversation. He and I stay in close touch on this, and I can tell you the Middle East can produce frustrations in one way or another every day.
But he knows that we are totally committed to trying to move forward with the peace process. I look forward to having conversations with a number of foreign leaders in New York this weekend. We are committed to getting to the Mitchell Plan.
I'm in touch with both the Israeli side and the Palestinian side, and I know that the foreign minister will be there to support us as we move forward.
President Bush is totally committed to remaining engaged on the peace process, getting through the security piece we have to get through, getting a cease fire in place and then moving through the confidence-building measures, ultimately back to negotiations under the basis of 242 and 338, two U.N. resolutions that provide land for peace. That's what we have to get to. We remain committed, despite the frustrations, despite the setbacks that we encounter from time to time.
I have seen some progress in recent days and I hope over the weekend to improve upon that progress and keep it moving.
BROWN: Mr. Secretary of State, it's always a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for your time this afternoon.
POWELL: Thank you, Aaron.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: Secretary of State Powell. Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, critics of the secretary. People say he's part of the problem in America's new war, along with the generals running it. The critics, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Just a few days ago Secretary Rumsfeld spoke to critics who say the war is going too slowly. He said the rubble at ground zero is still smoking. Give us some time, here. Well, not all of the critics are in such a giving mood. They look at ground zero and are asking, where is the urgency? They say relying on Afghan rebels just doesn't cut it, today's action notwithstanding. They argue that this war is too important to outsource.
Last night the president told the American people, "let's roll." In this week's editorial in the "New Republic" magazine there is some similar advice for the Pentagon. It reads, "hit the ground."
With us to talk about it, the editor, Peter Beinart, who joins us from Washington. Peter, nice to see you.
PETER BEINART, EDITOR, "NEW REPUBLIC:" Nice to be here.
BROWN: You write in the first paragraph that Americans are soft and can't abide battlefield losses. Are you just trying to be provocative here or do you actually believe that?
BEINART: No, actually we don't. The point of the editorial is very different, that the presumption is that Americans won't abide battlefield casualties. But that the media and government are probably -- politicians are probably behind the public in that, that something very fundamental changed on September 11th, because America took 5,000 casualties and that the politicians haven't recognized it and in fact there's a much higher tolerance and understanding that -- that casualties are worthwhile if they're necessary in order to defeat al Qaeda and the Taliban.
BROWN: Aren't you -- are you presuming here that what the Pentagon has laid out is a kind of minimalist war fought at 16,000 feet and by a few special ops forces or a few hundred special ops forces on the ground? Is that the presumption?
BEINART: Yes. That's exactly the presumption we are making. And I think the potential taking of Mazar-e Sharif -- or the potential holding of Mazar-e Sharif notwithstanding -- I don't think the strategy has worked very well.
We have very little after a month of trying, very little evidence of real resistance in the south. The -- and not much movement on Kabul. And I think the lesson of the taking of Mazar-e Sharif is in fact that it only really happened because America was willing to put troops on the ground in order to guide the Northern Alliance and guide our bombers.
BROWN: Well, except those troops that the Americans put on the ground are in some sense the troops that you say aren't enough, they're the special ops people. And the central point of the argument is that's not -- you can't rely on them because it's really not their job to take and hold ground.
BEINART: That's -- that's right. But it's much -- when one goes further south into Kabul and then even down into Kandahar I think we will have to rely on a much, much more robust force than -- than special ops. Remember, the Northern Alliance held Mazar-e Sharif as recently as two years ago. It has got Tadjik, Uzbek and Azar population that is much more sympathetic to the -- to the Northern Alliance. That's a much easier -- that's essentially low-hanging fruit.
I think especially now with the ground path we have through Uzbekistan, if the Northern Alliance is to move further south, it's going need to do it in conjunction with a much more robust American military force on the ground, not just special ops.
BROWN: And -- so let me take this to the last minute of the talk here, and suggest the possibility that putting large numbers of American troops in -- which does seem to me what you're arguing -- creates a situation where we could end up with a Vietnam-like quagmire or a repeat of the Soviet experience there. That has to be in the -- in the thinking.
BEINART: Of course. Of course it does. I think the Soviet analogy, which is the more often-used one, I think is a bad one.
One has to remember, the Soviets were fighting against an Afghan rebel group, the mujahideen, which were supported by the might of the United States and many other countries as well, backing them. And they were resupplied, which allowed them to continue the fight against the Soviets. I don't think the U.S. would be in the same situation against the Taliban, particularly if Pakistan held firm as it is now. So I don't think we would be in the same kind of quagmire that the Soviets were in.
And the truth is, I think that the Bush administration has begun to tell Americans what they need to, which is this war could last years and it could take American lives. And what some people call a quagmire, others might call the necessary resolve of the United States to truly clear Afghanistan of terrorism.
BROWN: That was a really interesting editorial in the "New Republic." Peter, thanks for joining us today.
BEINART: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. We will take a look at tomorrow's papers tonight in a moment when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Take a look at a couple morning papers from around the country, Saturday morning's papers. James Shelledy joins us. He's the editor of the "Salt Lake city Tribune" or the "Salt Lake Tribune" in Salt Lake City. I'm not precisely sure. And from Detroit, Carol Lee Hutton the manager editor of the "Detroit Free Press." Welcome both of you.
Ms. Hutton, you're further east here, so you probably have a really good idea of what your front page looks like right about now. Do you, for tomorrow?
CAROL LEE HUTTON, MANAGING EDITOR, "DETROIT FREE PRESS:" Oh, absolutely. The first edition is -- is gone to bed.
BROWN: And what's -- what's your lead?
HUTTON: The top story, actually, I hate to say it, but it is Mazar-e Sharif and, you know, the whole -- the sort of updates on where we are today at war packaged with the homeland security discussion today: what Attorney General Ashcroft asked for, the addition of more National Guard at the airports. It's what we would call an attack-related lead.
BROWN: If you had -- if you had had a good local story today, would you have preferred to have led that way today?
HUTTON: Well, it's not so much a matter of preference, but I will tell you there have been many days recently when a local story has topped the news.
We elected a new mayor in Detroit this week, and that's a hugely important story. The auto industry -- which of course is our bread and butter in Michigan, we are still, you know, largely an old-line manufacturing economy here. The auto industry is tremendously important, and this morning's lead story was the nomination -- which is tantamount to the election -- of a new UAW president. When the United Auto Workers anoint a new leader, that's a pretty big guy here.
BROWN: That's news. That's pretty big news. Mr. Shelledy, do you know what your big story above the fold is tomorrow morning?
JAMES SHELLEDY, "SALT LAKE TRIBUNE:" Yes, Aaron. It's terror- related but it's -- it's local, also. It's an interview with the IOC Director General, Francois Curard, over the history of terrorism and threats to the Olympics. We have a -- a sort of a provincial interest in this whole thing. And the internal security of the Olympics is -- the coming in February is foremost in our minds.
We also would have -- from our own correspondent, actually -- the capture of -- or the reported capture of Mazar-e Sharif. And we have a third one, and that would be new security procedures at the Salt Lake International Airport.
BROWN: And are your readers telling you they want more coverage of the war and the attack or are they saying you got it about right?
SHELLEDY: Oh, I think they -- they feel it's about right. We always have at least one story on the war out there, and usually up to three if you count the related stories that are local as well.
BROWN: Ms. Hutton, Detroit is very interesting to me in this, because Detroit has an enormous -- or very large -- Arab-American population. How does that affect the newspaper's coverage?
HUTTON: Well, it has a tremendous impact, because for us first of all the Middle East has always been a local story for us. We have a very, very large Arab-American community. We also have a very large and very vocal Jewish community. So we've always considered what happens in -- in the Middle East a local story. We were very mindful of our Arab community, very aware of it, when -- when what took place on September 11th happened. And of course, you know, almost immediately, the -- the events there were attributed to Osama Bin Laden. We knew that that would cause problems for our Arab community.
We recall, you know, just back in the Gulf War there were tremendous problems for our local Arab-Americans. We wanted to make sure that we contributed to educating the public about the Arab- American community.
These are -- these are Americans. These are immigrants. They're no different than my grandfather who got off the boat at Ellis Island. He just happened to come from Italy.
We wanted to make sure we educated the community about that. We wanted to make sure we gave the community the context and the perspective to try to avoid the discrimination and that stereotyping that we saw taking place in other parts of the country, and we wanted to reflect a very real concern -- in some cases the fear -- that, you know, takes place in this community, that can grip the community that's really unfair.
And at the same time, we had to be very mindful that there probably would be investigations here. And in fact there were arrests here. There continue to be people arrested in Detroit who remain in custody, and in somewhat tangential, perhaps, to the overall investigation, but, you know, there's a lot of secrecy surrounding that so that's really unclear.
BROWN: Ms. Hutton, Mr. Shelledy, thank you. We could have gone several more minutes tonight. Religion would be interesting from the Salt Lake perspective also. We will do that another night, I promise. Thank you.
HUTTON: Thank you.
BROWN: When we come back, the giants of September 11th in life and in art. NEWSNIGHT for Friday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Not far from ground zero, an extraordinary camera taking extraordinary pictures of extraordinary people. Here's the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
JOE MCNALLY, PHOTOJOURNALIST: So we've got a print up that gives you a rough idea. Right away when you walk in you can see what -- see what we've been doing. Roughly speaking, this has become the -- called the Portrait Project, and it's kind of taken on a life of its own. And we got permission from police and fire commissioners to go ahead and do this.
And this is the only kind of this camera in the world. It became the genesis of an idea that I had to kind of do a series of life-size polaroids of the people involved -- people whose lives had intersected at the Trade Center disasters. So we can actually get started.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
MCNALLY: Sure.
LT. DAVID S. SIMS, FIREFIGHTER, LADDER 20: We lost seven people from Ladder Company 20. All good people, all -- we lost our best people. We -- we lost husbands, we lost fathers, brothers. It was -- it was an overwhelming sense of loss. I think it's a wonderful -- wonderful thing you're doing. It's one way of memorializing the, you know, the good people who didn't come back.
MCNALLY: Looks good. They inspire me. Every day when I come to work, they inspire me.
BROWN: I think photographically there will be no greater historic record of the people involved, the people who lived after that awful day than what Joe is putting together here.
The portraits will have a massive impact. Many of them are going to appear in a life book that we are now doing. It very much humanizes what I still think remains in our mind as sort of a clinical, almost cinematic, horror show of those planes going into that building. This is the human side of that tragedy, and I think Joe is telling it in an extraordinary fashion.
MCNALLY: You'd be surprised what this camera will pick up. OK. Kevin? What's going to happen is all the lights are going to go out. And I'm going to go "Ready flash." OK. Just stay relaxed. Straight at the camera, just the way you are. Perfect. Lights, please.
KEVIN SHEA: I crawled through 200 feet of debris after the first collapse, so I was in the south tower during the collapse and somehow got out. I went with 11 guys and none of them -- none of them made it, you know? And I found out that I was the only survivor of the battalion and I'm the only one who made it. So what's really sticking in my head? How come? Why? Why me?
MCNALLY: Everyone who has intersected with -- with this this tragedy has had a role to play. And what I've tried to establish via this project is a cross section of New York, be it a volunteer, be it a survivor, be it a firefighter.
I think the broader the range of people, I think the more validity the project has. When you photograph someone like this, put it up, it's like that person is in the room with you speaking to you. And that's been pretty important.
FRANK SILLECHIA, IRONWORKER: This is the government at work.
MCNALLY: Yeah.
SILLECCHIA: This is the way I work. I'm a laborer for Local 731. My job when I first got there was to work with the firemen to try and retrieve bodies or find survivors. Does the tiredness look in my face? We only found bodies, no survivors. The only thing that keeps my mind together is I have faith. The second day going into the third, I went into building number six, which is the customs building. And we searched for survivors or deceased. We found three deceased people.
And when I helped them bring up the last body, I looked up and seen this great big piece of steel in -- it was waits in the shape of Christ's cross, and it really took me. I was moved very much. I cried for a while, and it uplifted my spirit, making me feel that God hasn't deserted me or at this time of my need.
MCNALLY: You know, it's funny. They're tough guys. You know, they come in and they say, "I don't take a good picture." But then they see themselves on film like this and they realize wow, that is real -- I really do look good. I -- there is dignity. There is stature to who I am and what I'm doing here.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: The work of photographer Joe Mcnally. That's us -- that's all for us for the week. We'll see you at 10:00 on Monday. Good night.
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