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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

The Northern Alliance March Into Kabul; Bush Signs an Order Which Would Give Him the Right to Try Non-Citizens Suspected of Terrorism in a Military Court

Aired November 13, 2001 - 21:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. This is an "Alice in Wonderland" sort of day. Up is down, and down is up. The president announced today that the United States will cut its nuclear weapons arsenal by 2/3. No Cold War, no need. Big story, right? A lead story, most days, lucky to make the program at all tonight.

Then there is this: U.S. allies, the Northern Alliance, marched into Kabul today, the enemy's capital. Good news you think. And if so, then why was there so much worry all day long that this happened too soon -- before there was a government ready to take charge.

And then there was the plane crash. Even the plane crash is a little "Alice in Wonderland." The stock market soared today because the early indications were it was just an accident. Just an accident? Strange times, these.

It was hard not to be moved by this, so many Afghans actually smiling, celebrating as anti-Taliban forces pour in and reclaim the capital of Afghanistan. And then there is this...

(MUSIC PLAYING)

BROWN: Music, banned by the Taliban, blaring in the streets. TVs back on too, thank goodness. There was word of a man digging up his buried TV and VCR, and watching "Titanic."

One headline today: "A Busy, Busy Day at the Barber." In Kabul and in other cities captured by the Northern Alliance, shaving in defiance of the Taliban and their brand of Islam.

But it was also hard not to be moved by this today, and deeply disturbed. Acts of vengeance, many of them, apparently, at the hands of Northern Alliance forces. One journalist put it this way, "they chose to celebrate with executions."

A lot of ground for us to cover. The war and what now there, the crash and what happened. And then this, a startling presidential order that at first glance may have you asking, "what country is this, anyway?"

And that's where we'll start our whip around the world tonight. Kelly Wallace, at the White House. Kelly, your headline, please.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron.

Well, President Bush giving himself the power to do something that has not been done since World War II. This military order, giving the president the ability to try non-U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism in special military commissions, as opposed to in civilian court. Aides say this is an option that could be helpful in bringing members of the Al Qaeda network to justice. But the ACLU calls the move deeply disturbing -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, back to you in a bit. Now to CNN's Matthew Chance, who rode into Kabul with the Northern Alliance. Matt, the headline from you.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A dramatic turn of events here, Aaron. The city behind me, you can see in the distance there. That's the Afghan capital of Kabul and until just a day ago, it was firmly in the hands of the Taliban. Today those Taliban forces have completely abandoned it, leaving it to the control of the opposition Northern Alliance. They spread out throughout city, are imposing their rule here -- Aaron.

BROWN: Matthew, thank you. And what now? What after the leadership in Kabul? CNN's David Ensor working on the political side. David, the headline?

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the headline from here is optimism -- optimism from President Bush, from Secretary of State Powell and other U.S. officials, that it just may be that the end of the Taliban regime that has ruled Afghanistan these past years may soon be in sight --Aaron.

BROWN: David, back to you in a bit as well. And now to our own back yard and the mystery of what brought down flight 587. CNN's Kathleen Koch working on that. Kathleen, the headline?

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the headline is that they are narrowing the options. But that's not necessarily making things any easier for investigators. They are looking now at a videotape from a construction worker. They have a preliminary analysis of that cockpit voice recorder, and now something new called wake turbulence. But all of it is leaving investigators very puzzled.

BROWN: Kathleen, thank you. Back to you, back to all of you shortly.

We begin with the fall of Kabul. More good news than bad news to be sure, but there is a little bit of both, here. The Northern Alliance marched in the Afghan capital less than five days after taking Mazar-e-Sharif, their first significant breakthrough. The Taliban fled, or just plain left, preferring to fight another day in a place of their choosing.

There is considerable concern now about what comes next. Can the Northern Alliance rule? Should it rule? And what happens if the alliance doesn't agree to a broad-based government supported by the international community?

But those questions are for later in this hour. We'll start with the taking of Kabul. And once again, we're joined by CNN's Matthew Chance. Matthew, good morning to you.

CHANCE: Good morning, and good evening to you in New York, Aaron.

That's right, throughout the course of the past 24 hours, we've been watching truckloads of troops of the opposition Northern Alliance pouring into this city, moving through the streets of the Afghan capital. Crowds of local Kabul residents coming out onto those streets, cheering the troops as they go past, chanting anti-Taliban slogans, and also anti-Pakistan slogans as well. Pakistan, of course, formally a sponsor of the Taliban.

Those scenes of joy, though, perhaps masking the real sense of concern being felt by many residents of Kabul that now the Northern Alliance forces are back in control here in Kabul, the Afghan capital. This city may return to the kind of bitter ethnic factional infighting that really ravaged this city, before the Taliban took over in 1996. So, mixed emotions on the streets here in Kabul.

That, of course, as the Northern Alliance troops abandoned their commitment totally to not enter the city and went ahead -- saw their opportunity to go for it and went ahead, and took their ultimate military prize.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): In the end, it was a rout, a mad dash to Kabul along the road none of us expected to travel so soon. At the gates of Kabul, news of a Taliban collapse had already reached these thousands. They gathered to greet the troops and old friends, some lost for years, across the front lines.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down with Pakistan.

CHANCE: Through the crowds, we finally slipped past the Northern Alliance checkpoint, and found ourselves in Kabul itself. We had to leave our own vehicles behind us. So we took a local cab to the city center.

(on camera): OK, we've taken a taxi and we're going to try and make our way into the center of Kabul, to the intercontinental hotel. I have been getting reports that there's sporadic gunfire in the streets of Kabul, so we're being a bit cautious. But I think it's best that we get there and see for ourselves what the situation is.

(voice-over): And we found this. They're spitting on the lifeless body of a Taliban fighter, a grisly example of the hatred among many people here for the hard-line regime. All around this Kabul city park, we saw bodies of men killed by Northern Alliance troops in their advance. (on camera): Were he executed, or was he fighting the Northern Alliance?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. They were fighting for about 10 minutes. They fought with the Northern Alliance here. The Northern Alliance captured this place.

CHANCE: But did they capture this man first, and then kill him? Or did they kill him during the fighting?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First they captured him, and then they killed him. They couldn't escape, they had to die.

CHANCE (voice-over): Then, from a roadside stall, the sound forbidden in Kabul for years. Music, banned by the Taliban, now play freely on the streets.

The men of Kabul are already crowding out the city's barber's shops. Even beard trims were punished by terms of imprisonment here -- no more. But a shave is quick. How much longer it will take for this city to heal the real scars of its recent past.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Northern Alliance officials say they had no real choice but to enter the city when they saw what they describe as an unexpected retreat by the Taliban from the city. They say they had to move in to prevent anarchy breaking out on the streets here. They say, though, they are still committed to finding an ethnically broad-based political agreement for a future power-sharing government in Afghanistan.

A big difference now though, Aaron, is that the Northern Alliance are in a much stronger position, and they have control over the Afghan capital. Back to you.

BROWN: Matthew, there's an old American expression that possession is 9/10 of the law. I think it applies in Kabul, they have possession of the capital. And now someone's going to have to convince them to give that up.

All right, maybe we have lost audio. Matt, thanks for joining us. We hope you're well. You've a remarkable few days there.

CNN's Kamal Hyder normally comes to us from Kandahar. He isn't there tonight, not by his choice. Earlier today the Taliban told all reporters to get out, saying they could no longer guarantee anyone's safety. So whatever happens next in Afghanistan, it would seem it's about to happen in Kandahar, and all of the southern part of the country.

Kamal Hyder now joins us from the border in Quetta, Pakistan -- Kamal.

KAMAL HYDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, this morning we have reports, unconfirmed reports, that Kandahar has fallen. But those reports cannot be confirmed. Yesterday we had also unconfirmed reports that the airport had fallen. And if it indeed had fallen, then we would not be able to get through back to Pakistan.

Yesterday the mood in Kandahar, thousands of Kandahar residents woke up to the rude shock that Kabul had been abandoned by the Taliban. And later in the day, evidence of Taliban stepped up security, and thousands of personnel moving in from Herat into Kandahar.

Yesterday the mood that everybody was congregating on Kandahar, and that Kandahar itself may fall -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kamal, we've seen now in couple of different parts of the country, the celebration when the Taliban leaves. If the Taliban were to be defeated in Kandahar, what would the population -- how would the population react, would you guess?

HYDER: Well, Aaron, the worst thing about the Taliban government was the Vice and Virtue Ministry, that imposed so many restrictions on innocent people in Afghanistan in the city. Music was banned. People were harassed for having small beards. They would swoop down on shopkeepers, take them away. The Vice and Virtue people were mostly illiterate, and they unleashed the terror on the cities of Afghanistan.

Obviously, therefore, when these people are gone from Kandahar city, there would be a sigh of relief, as far as the people are concerned. But at the same time, it would be unfair to say that the Taliban did not succeed in certain things. The law and order, for example, even today as Kandahar is bombed and there is no electricity, and streets remain open and vacant. The Taliban still keep a semblance of law and order -- Aaron.

BROWN: And, Kamal, when they came and however they came, to say it's time for you to get out of Kandahar, what was their attitude? Were they still friendly or were they something less than that?

HYDER: Aaron, the authorities were very friendly. The authorities did not ask us to leave. In fact, the authorities themselves left. Would be more appropriate, there were no authorities in town. The leadership, obviously being hunted, is always on the move. They're getting out of town. They try to stay their nights in the deserts and different villages, never staying at the same place at the same time.

We were advised by our local friends and contacts in Kandahar that should anarchy break out -- and Afghanistan is on the verge of anarchy -- Kandahar (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as well, and therefore, if anarchy breaks out, your life would be not safe in ensuing gun battles.

Obviously, a lot of hatred against several nationalities, including Arabs, Pakistanis and many others. And there was an apprehension that it could be dangerous for us to stay any longer in Kandahar -- Aaron. BROWN: Kamal, stay safe. We'll talk to you again tomorrow, I suspect. Kamal Hyder in Quetta, Pakistan, tonight, having left Kandahar. We'll revisit the Afghanistan story a little later in the program.

Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT: new revelations about the crash of flight 587. NEWSNIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Earlier tonight, a veteran crash investigator on CNN was talking about American flight 587, and he said this one, "this one is really puzzling." Not for want of evidence. Investigators now have both flight recorders, many of the parts, a number of eyewitness accounts, and no solid theories -- at least none they're talking about tonight.

What they are saying says more about what didn't cause the crash than what did. Therefore, not an easy day for Kathleen Koch, who's charged with covering it -- Kathleen.

KOCH: My job is not as tough as the job of those who are trying to figure this puzzle out. They are getting a bit frustrated with it. The good news is that they have recovered most of remains, most of the bodies that were on the site. Investigators have flown over Jamaica Bay looking for wreckage, and not found a whole lot.

They were very optimistic about a videotape that was shot by a construction worker of the plane on the takeoff roll, gears up, but then he pans away. So again, vital clues that are not on that tape -- all which is bringing them closer, but still not directly to the answers that they seek.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Investigators are opening new doors and closing others, as they piece together what happened. The NTSB says the debris field shows the tail came off first. Not likely, they say, a bird strike or a catastrophic failure of the internal workings of the Airbus A-300's engine.

GEORGE BLACK, NTSB MEMBER: Visual inspection indicates, as we said earlier, no evidence of uncontained engine failure, no bird strike or no fan failure. We'll be moving the engine to a hangar to do a more detailed inspection.

KOCH: Investigators say they've interviewed two flight crews who saw the plane go down.

BLACK: They saw the aircraft wobble, was the word used. And they saw pieces come from it. And then it went into a steep spiraling dive into the ground.

KOCH: Important information will come from the flight data recorder, found today and now being analyzed in Washington. New possibilities are raised by preliminary analysis of the cockpit voice recorder. Investigators say everything seems normal as the takeoff rolled again.

But 107 seconds in, an air frame rattling noise is heard. Seven seconds later, the pilot mentions encountering wake turbulence. Then more rattling. At 125 seconds, the copilot calls for maximum power. Just 2 seconds later, the crew talks about losing control of the plane. At 144 seconds, the recording ends.

Wake turbulence is spun off by a plane's wings, and can dangerously disrupt other aircraft close by. The NTSB staged its own wake encounter to study the problem after a U.S. Air crash in 1994. As this November 12th radar from a private firm megadata shows, and investigators confirm, a JAL-747 did precede flight 587, but at a safe distance.

Experts say eliminating potential causes like uncontained engine failure does not necessarily simplify this investigation.

PETER GOELZ, FMR. NTSB MANAGING DIRECTOR: The easy explanation was that there was a massive, uncontained engine failure. That was really, you know, the simple explanation. Well, we found out that that was not in play. I think we're back to the drawing boards, and this is going to be a challenging event for the NTSB and the FAA.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: Again, what everyone seems to be talking about tonight is this issue of wake turbulence. Though investigators say not only was there safe distance, but there was even an additional 20 seconds above and beyond what was required.

And, Aaron, in the testing that the NTSB did on this issue, with this past crash, they found that wake turbulence can be very violent. It can jostle a plane. It can be very dangerous. But they found that in every case, as long as a pilot was not dealing with any other problems, that that wake turbulence, you were able to recover from it.

BROWN: All right. Two quick things, here: anything they learn today make them believe this was not an accident?

KOCH: Up to this point, no. We had heard some behind-the-scenes speculation from experts, but no, the National Transportation Safety Board is sticking to their guns on this one. At this point, they say, an accident.

BROWN: OK, and as we go through the sequence on the cockpit voice recorder. And we hear this and we hear the pilot saying that. What we don't hear, I don't think, is anything that sounds like an explosion, correct?

KOCH: At this point, no sounds that do sound like an explosion. Of course, there is a team that, starting tomorrow morning, is going to begin going over every single second on this cockpit voice recorder. They'll be analyzing the sounds. Some of the people on the teams are pilots, so they're used to what makes noises in a cockpit and how that sounds. But no trace whatsoever of a explosion yet.

BROWN: So a mystery still. Thank you, Kathleen Koch, tonight.

With good luck and the grace of God, your city will never have a Ground Zero. New York City right now has two. There's the Trade Center site, and since early yesterday morning, another Ground Zero in Rockaway, Queens, where 587 nose-dived, whatever the cause turns out to be.

CNN's Brian Cabell tonight on how that community is coping.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Eight-year-old Alex Berger, there in the dark jacket, and his friends witnessed what happened in their neighborhood on Monday.

ALEX BERGER, WITNESS TO CRASH: The plane crashed just two houses diagonally behind ours.

CABELL: Alex smiles a lot, but his dad says Alex comprehends the crash was horrible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've told him that something dangerous happened. And if he feels any problem, he should come right to Mommy and Daddy.

CABELL: The parents, at Belle Harbor School, about three blocks from the crash site, could be excused if they waited a little more anxiously for their kids to get out on Tuesday. In fact, attendance was down about 40 percent. These aren't normal times here in Rockaway.

Deanine Buckley and her sons, Billy and Michael, heard the crash just a couple of blocks away.

DEANINE BUCKLEY, MOTHER: Later on I walked my eldest son down the block to show him that everything was OK, and that a lot of people came out to help. Unfortunately, some people died. However, they're with God right now and God is taking care of them.

CABELL: Little Amber Fash, here with her mom and a friend, apparently doesn't even know about the crash. Mom's not telling her a thing.

NANCY FASH, MOTHER: She's only four, and she's not asking any questions. You know, I don't want her to know.

CABELL: That may work for a 4-year-old, but not for the older children. They see and understand too much. The police, the heavy equipment, the media. Maybe even the horrifying fire on Monday, on the very streets where they normally play and ride their bicycles. They're back in school, these kids. But a lot of the learning these days is surely taking place at home with mom and dad.

Brian Cabell, CNN, Rockaway, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: A few days after 9-11 we asked our next guest if he missed being in the center of this tragedy, doing the work he was trained to do, which, in his case, was running a police department. Yes, Ray Kelly said that night. And we understood, perhaps better than most, exactly what he meant.

So we say to Mr. Kelly tonight, be careful what you wish for. Today New York Mayor-Elect Mike Bloomberg announced that Ray Kelly would be New York's next police commissioner, the boss of a huge police department. We've known Mr. Kelly for a while and we're delighted he accepted our invitation to talk with us tonight.

Nice to see you. Congratulations.

RAYMOND KELLY, NY POLICE COMMISSIONER DESIGNATE: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: How did you get a job like this? Did you go down to the job fair and put in your application?

KELLY: No, you don't. I have known Mike Bloomberg for a while. I think he will a great mayor. He asked that I come back to an organization that I spent 31 years in. I owe virtually everything I have to New York City Police Department, and it's just a great honor to be asked to return.

BROWN: Tell me how running the city will be -- running the police department will be different in the year 2002, than it was almost a decade ago when you ran it before?

KELLY: Well, it's bigger, significantly bigger. It's about 55,000 people now, with all the civilian personnel. And of course, we have the specter of terrorism, certainly over the country, but particularly in New York. We've been a target twice, in 1993 at the bombing at the World Trade Center, and of course the horrendous events of September 11th.

BROWN: And to the New York City Police Department and to the people who run it, that means what?

KELLY: Well, it means several things. It means that we have to make certain we have a robust response capability to any emergency, but certainly to a terrorism event. We have to have all of our people on kind of a heightened state of readiness and awareness. I think we're going to have embark on a training in that regard. A fair amount of unchartered water here.

But clearly, certainly all major police departments are going to have to rethink a lot of things that they've done in the past. And New York will be no exception.

BROWN: Is there anything that will be easier about running big city police department now than it was the last time you ran one?

KELLY: I think you'll have much more cooperation on the part of the public. People are concerned throughout America, but certainly they're concerned here in New York, because as I say, we have been targeted twice. So I think you'll have more of a sense of cooperation. We're all in this together. And I think that's certainly been manifested in the last two months in New York City.

BROWN: Over the last eight years -- absolutely true in New York, it's been true in a lot of big cities, and for a lot of different reasons -- crime has dropped, crack went away, or at least, mostly went away. Outside of the antiterrorism stuff, someday I presume we'll get back to worrying about muggers and rapers and murderers and the like. Has crime changed last eight or nine years?

KELLY: Oh, sure. And I think certainly, the diminution of crack, the crack epidemic that hit like a tidal wave in the mid-'80s. That's certainly fallen off tremendously. But I think there's been smarter police tactics and strategies used. There's been a lot more attention to quality of life issues. And here in New York, we have more resources than we had. As I said, the department has grown significantly in the last few years. And that's true throughout America.

The police are smarter, they're more informed. They're getting more informed on a real-time basis, and it enables them to respond more quickly.

BROWN: One of the things that's happened here -- certainly true of firemen and women, and I suspect it's true of police officers too, after 9-11, people look at them differently. Do you think the city is just one bad shooting away from the old days, though?

KELLY: Oh, no. I think the city has fundamentally changed. I think a lot of the foundation, you might say, for crime, years ago is not with us. Could it come back? Economic difficulties...

BROWN: I'm sorry. What I mean here is really in the relationship between the police and the community. By one bad shooting, I mean one Diallo case.

KELLY: Well, I mean, it's tenuous. In some communities, more than others. I think what we have to do is a better job of communication. We have to continue to talk to communities. We obviously have to train our officers, you know, more effective use of firearms, that sort of thing. But so much of it comes down to communication. Keeping the community informed as to what the police are doing, and vice versa.

BROWN: Congratulations. I believe my life I need to know a police chief. I think it would save me a lot of trouble. It's nice to see you again. Ray Kelly, the next police commissioner in New York.

In a moment: creating military courts to try Al Qaeda, concerns about civil liberties and more, as NEWSNIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: To the White House now. Not since the days of World War II has a president taken the action President Bush took today. He signed an executive order which allows suspected terrorists, who are non-citizens, to be tried in a military court. U.S. Supreme Court allowed German saboteurs to be tried by military court during World War II. The court also allowed the internment of Japanese-Americans, which we guess proves that history isn't always kind to the decisions governments make in times of war. The White House calls it, tonight, a helpful option, civil libertarians call it something else.

White House correspondent Kelly Wallace calls it another day at the office. And she joins us from the lawn, this evening -- Kelly.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron.

Well, here it is, this is the military order that President Bush signed. He signed it just before he left the White House today with First Lady Laura Bush. The Bushes heading to their ranch in Crawford, Texas. And no sooner, Aaron, did the president sign this order did the criticism start coming in, the ACLU said the president should first justify why the current system would not be suitable in prosecuting accused terrorists. And then absent a compelling justification, the ACLU calling this move deeply disturbing.

Well, what the White House aides say a number of things: Number 1, they say this is just an option that the president has not decided whether or not to use it. Number 2, they say it could be used in cases of protecting the American people, they say it might be safer to have a trial of a suspected terrorist before a special military commission, as opposed to in a civilian court. Number 3, they also say it could be used if there are concerns about the release of investigative sources and methods, aides saying look this is not just about going after by Osama bin Laden. It is about prosecuting a global terrorist network, so they might want to protect those investigative methods and sources. Number 4, Aaron, they say the Justice Department could still bring civilian charges by federal prosecutors against individuals, and as you noted right at the top, aides pointing to past, they say these are extraordinary times and they say in extraordinary times in the past such as World War II, and the Civil War presidents used this option. So again, they say an option, the president hasn't made a decision just yet -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thanks. Kelly Wallace at the White House tonight. It's one of those stories you can bet we will hear more about.

Coming up in other news now: Eight Western aid workers facing trial by the Taliban, that headline was plenty scary in the months before September 11, before the bombing campaign began. A lot scarier now, especially considering the latest reports we've heard from one of the parents, that report that all eight of these people, including the two Americans, have been taken by the Taliban -- with the Taliban to Kandahar from Kabul.

President Bush today addressed the fate of the workers who are charged with trying to convert Muslims to Christianity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are obviously very concerned about their safety. Our military is very aware that they are in that part of world. And we are doing everything we can to use our intelligence gathering capacity to make sure they stay out of harm's way. It's up to the Taliban, however, to protect them -- we expect them to do so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

We are joined tonight by the father we mentioned a moment ago. John Mercer offered to take his daughter's place as a prisoner. Heather apparently is in Kandahar. Her father is in Islamabad.

Mr. Mercer, hello to you.

JOHN MERCER, FATHER OF PRISONER IN AFGHANISTAN: Good morning, or good evening to you Aaron.

BROWN: Tell me -- tell me what you know about Heather and where she is right now?

MERCER: Well, Aaron, that's really difficult for me to know exactly where she is. I visited the Taliban embassy yesterday morning and they intimated to me that they had been taken for their safety to Kandahar.

There has been some journalistic reporting from Kabul that's indicated that's where they were taken. Their prison cell was visited after they departed and all of their personal effects were still left there, strewn about as if they had no idea they were leaving. So it looks like they were taken on very short notice. And hopefully, for their protection, were taken to Kandahar by the Taliban.

BROWN: I assume, Mr. Mercer, that your worst fear right now, or one of your fears right now is that your daughter and the others will be used as some sort of pawn in a negotiation -- hostages essentially?

MERCER: Well, that is one of the options that we do have to fear about. The Taliban from the start of this have always said their trial and the issue of their proselytizing Christianity was separate from the bombings in the United States and the ensuing military action.

So all I can hope and pray is that they're going to keep them safe until such time as they'll be released safely.

BROWN: Tell us the sort of contacts you have had with Heather over this what must be agonizing long period of time and her condition, through it all?

MERCER: Well, my most recent contact with Heather was a letter I received shortly after 4 November, which she had written to her mother and myself. She seemed fairly upbeat in the letter. She was talking about -- they were all making a birthday meal for one of the other American girls. They did express their great disappointment that the lawyer that they had retained for their trial, had failed to return to Kabul after about three weeks. They talked about writing songs about their eventual release. And general parent -- mother-father-daughter conversation in the letter. So I think after this long period of time they've sort of become resolved to -- that this is a long-haul for them.

BROWN: What do you do next now, just sit there in Islamabad and pray for the best?

MERCER: That's what I've been doing since 3 August when I was notified that she was taken. I spent a lot of time at the American embassy that's been providing support for us.

I'll go back to the Taliban embassy today or tomorrow to see if they have any news about the detainees. And, in general, just sort of cool my heels. It's where I need to be if I can't be in Afghanistan with them, I'm going to remain here.

BROWN: Mr. Mercer all of us who are parents can only imagine how difficult this must be for you are thoughts are with you. We hope this all turns out all right. Thanks for your time.

MERCER: Aaron, thank you very much for your thoughts. I appreciate it very much. Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Mercer, very much.

We will be right back, we have much more on NEWSNIGHT.

(MARKET UPDATE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: After northern forces took Kabul, one reporter wrote this: Their jubilation was dampened by competing claims to power, long repressed feuds, the maneuvering of commanders and their political allies. That could of be written today, it was actually was written in 1992.

The United States knows what happened after the first takeover, the infighting and the chaos that left 30,000 Afghans dead. And the diplomats know if that happens again, America's new war will be infinitely harder to fight and win, and so now, the efforts to bring stability.

CNN's David Ensor has been working on that story.

David, good evening to you.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. You know it was because of that very concern that there could be in-fighting and chaos, that Bush Administration officials were asking the Northern Alliance to stay out of Kabul, but they do not seem up set tonight about what has happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): Though the Northern Alliance was specifically asked not to move into Afghanistan capitol, the fall of Kabul put the president in an optimistic frame of mind.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're making great progress in our objective, and that is to tighten the net and eventually bring al Qaeda to justice, and at the same time deal with the government that's been harboring them.

ENSOR: But the efforts of Mr. Bush's secretary of state with other nations to cobble together an interim government for Afghanistan, not just made up of the Northern Alliance Tajiks, and Uzbeks, have clearly been overtaken by events on the ground. Those efforts must now go into higher gear.

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Perhaps the movement into Kabul will also speed up the diplomatic part so that there isn't a vacuum. There's a difference between neutral and a vacuum. And I think that having a vacuum in Kabul would be a mistake. It will be very hard to keep order.

ENSOR: Diplomats at the United Nations are hurrying to assemble a coalition of the willing, including Muslim nations like Turkey and Bangladesh, to provide a peacekeeping force for Kabul, both to assure a broad based government, including southern Pashtuns, and, more urgently, to prevent large scale reprisals against suspected Taliban supporters.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I'll guess that when this is over, that this probably will prove to have been the change of hands with the least loss of life of anytime in modern memory in that country, but there will be loss of life.

ENSOR: Only one U.S. Special Forces operation in southern Afghanistan has been made public. This one, of October 19, but U.S. officials say the Amerian covert operations currently underway in the south are designed to weaken the Taliban's hold and encourage defections.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

U.S. officials now say that in the last couple of days a number of key local commanders have deserted the Taliban, bringing with them hundreds of heavily armed fighters. And tonight at a Russian embassy reception, Secretary of State Colin Powell and other officials were expressing some optimism that the end of the Taliban's rule could be near -- Aaron.

BROWN: You have hung around the State Department a long time. Some optimism, were they giddy?

ENSOR: I would hardly say giddy. They realize that even when the rule ends the problems are still there. The problem of getting Osama bin Laden, of rooting out the Taliban so that they can never come back, there is going to be a lot of work to do. There will probably be some American casualties ahead. But there is a sense I got of real optimism at high levels, that the rule of the Taliban may be ending soon. And we did see report earlier that Kandahar is the next target of some of the mujahedeen.

BROWN: David, thank you. David Ensor in Washington tonight.

Understanding the history and the land is always crucial in fighting a war. In a place like Afghanistan it's essential. Joining us now, someone who knows both, Thomas Gouttierre, CNN's Afghan specialist. He's director of Afghan studies at the University of Nebraska at Omaha. And he joins us tonight form Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Tom, it is nice to see you again.

THOMAS GOUTTIERRE, CNN AFGHAN SPECIALIST: Nice to see you, Aaron.

BROWN: Good, what happened today -- simple headline, right?

GOUTTIERRE: It was an amazing thing and of course, I don't think anybody anticipated that Kabul would fall as rapidly as it has, but then again, last week everybody was complaining that things were going to slowly. As you recall, everybody was wondering why Mazar-i-Sharif hadn't fallen yet. So, this is a very major development and one I think, on balance is very, very positive for our objectives in Afghanistan.

BROWN: I want you to try to teach your course in Afghan tribal politics in about 35 seconds, OK? Give me the lay of the land out there. Who should we be watching and where does their power come from?

GOUTTIERRE: Right now, there is a congregation of Afghans particularly from the south, led by Hamed Karzai, of the Popal Zi Duranese (ph) , and he is very, very instrumental in bringing people from the Pashtuns to the side of the favorable forces here. If we take a look down there in the area around Kandahar, that is where he is most active.

And he is able to bring these Pashtuns, I think, against the Taliban now. We have heard that the airport to the east of Kandahar has fallen. I haven't had that confirmed but I have heard it more than once. So, this is an indication, again, that the -- what we have been hoping for all along -- that the Pashtuns, who are not deeply in support of the Taliban and particularly of the al Qaeda movement and the Pakistani military volunteers in Afghanistan, would peel away, eventually, when some of the activities that we have seen occur in the last several days would occur.

BROWN: As you look at the horizon that is Afghanistan today, what worries you, what scares you?

GOUTTIERRE: Well, I think we have be to concerned about the possibility of lack of order, but I think right now, that the fact that there is the presence of the security forces of the Northern Alliance in Kabul can at least be an asset in the immediate coming days because as Secretary Albright said, it's better to have a neutral kind of presence rather than a vacuum and a vacuum leads to anarchy and I think that's a very correct thing.

Another thing I think we need to continue to be looking for are statements from our government that the U.S. is really engaged in the reconstruction of Afghanistan. I like to here this as often as possible. I know the Afghans would too and I think will help us in providing the kind of incentives that needed to be raised in order to help move along the political activities that we all need to see develop in Afghanistan for the resolution of this kind of anarchy that Afghanistan has experienced almost from the beginning since the exit of the the Soviet troops, just war after war. And the Afghans need to begin rebuilding their country reconstructing their country.

BROWN: Professor, it's good to talk to you again. Thank you for your help.

GOUTTIERRE: Nice to talk with you.

BROWN: It is always good. Thank you. Thomas Gouttierre joining us this evening.

Check morning papers from Nashville and Los Vegas when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's the time of the night when we check on how the news is playing in Peoria, or in this case, Nashville and Las Vegas. In Nashville we're joined by Dave Green, the managing editor of "The Daily Tenneseean." And from Los Vegas, Thomas Mitchell, the editor of "The Los Vegas Review Journal."

Good evening to both of you.

Dave, you must have a pretty good idea what your front page looks like late.

DAVE GREEN, MANAGING EDITOR, "DAILY TENNESSEEAN": Yes, we are obviously going very heavy on the war roundup. Dana Currie is a local story for us so we will have her on the front page.

BROWN: And Dana Currie is one of the two Americans being held?

GREEN: Yes, that's right. And you just had a piece on her a couple minutes ago, or rather on her colleague, Heather Mercer.

BROWN: Go ahead.

GREEN: And we will do a follow-up on the plane crash and a couple of local stories.

BROWN: Let's come back to the local stories in a second.

Tom, your front page, do you know yet how it will play? THOMAS MITCHELL, EDITOR, "LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL": Well, as we talked about hour ago, we will probably go with a major story about the war on the ground in Afghanistan. We are also going to come back with the story you mentioned earlier about the military trials that Bush signed off on. We find that very interesting.

We will do a crash follow-up and we will definitely do a story -- probably do a story out of our Washington delegation as it relates to the stimulus package, and where it goes in terms of trying to help tourism. The airlines have got their bailout, but it looks like the tourism companies are having to struggle for theirs.

BROWN: Your military trial story, is that going to be written by one of your reporters or will you pick up a story from somewhere or other?

MITCHELL: We will pick up one of our four wire services.

BROWN: OK. I want to come back to the economic story. Let me go back to Dave for a second.

Your local stories, been hard to get local stories in the paper, what is the threshold these days? How big a story does it have to be?

GREEN: Well, it kind of depends on what is happening internationally or nationally. This morning it was pretty darn tough to get a local story in because of the plane crash and there was the late-breaking development of the Taliban leaving Kabul.

This morning, -- rather tomorrow morning it's a little bit looser, so we will have a local presence there.

BROWN: And your local stories will be what?

GREEN: There are plans to build a $75 million symphony hall in Nashville and we got some advance word about a large donation for that, and the potential locations of that which would be a big thing for our downtown.

BROWN: Tom, every newspaper and every television station in the country is looking for ways to localize the 9-11 story, how it impacts their community. Obviously in Las Vegas that is easy to do because you are a tourist town and it's been tough. hasn't it?

MITCHELL: It has. We have had a number of layoffs. We have had a drop in tourism and we have reported that nearly 46 percent of the touristists who come to Las Vegas come by airlines and people are a little reluctant to fly after September 11, and then another kick yesterday from the plane that went down into Queens.

BROWN: Do you pretty much -- day after day -- have some tourist, economy, terrorism-related story in the paper?

MITCHELL: I would say probably one or two stories just about every day. But then again there is also security stories, stories about some of the landmarks in our area that -- where security is being beefed up. You know, Hoover Dam, the Nevada test site, those sorts of things.

BROWN: Let me go back to Dave here for the last word. Do you think the newspaper business, or the news business generally, has been changed by the terrorist attack on September 11?

GREEN: Well, certainly in the short run and probably in the longer run, we will be placing a lot more emphasis on national, international news than we had and I think that's what our readers want. So in that sense, yes, very much.

BROWN: Thank you both, in Nashville and Las Vegas, for joining us. Two good newspapers, we appreciate your time.

MITCHELL: Thank you.

GREEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. And we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On any other day in any other year in the last five decades this next story would be the lead, rather than the closer, so it is a yardstick, if nothing else, of how our fears have changed in the days since 9-11. But this piece of news is where it is in tonight's program.

President Bush and the Russian President Putin met today at the White House and made an extraordinary announcement that the two countries' massive nuclear arsenals would not just be reduced, but drastically reduced to levels not seen since the earliest days of the cold war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have informed President Putin that the United States reduce our operationally deployed strategic nuclear warheads to a level between 1,700 and 2,200 over the next decade, a level fully consistent with American security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT: First of all, it has to do with the prospects of reaching a reliable and verifiable agreement on further reduction of the U.S. and Russian weapons. Here, I must say, we appreciate very much the decision by the president to reduce strategic defensive weapons to the limits indicated by him, and we, for our part, will try to respond in kind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The president's proposal today would cut the U.S. nuclear arsenal by two-thirds. And they say we never end on good news. That's our report for tonight. We will see you tomorrow again at 10:00. We hope you will join us. For NEWSNIGHT, good night.

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