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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Interview with Senator Tom Daschle, Judith Miller

Aired November 14, 2001 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. It has, so far, been a week of ambiguous good news. Monday's plane crash still appears to be an accident, not terrorism. But it's hard to find good news in an accident where more than 260 people died.

And the rout of the Taliban is very good news, but it's tempered still by concerns of what will follow, who will run the country, how will they run the country, and where is bin Laden. Ambiguous.

So with that as a backdrop, it's nice to report good news with no catch at all. In some type of operation, the details remain sketchy, eight Western aide workers, including two young American women, are free tonight, and safe, in Pakistan.

There are some clues as to how this was accomplished, but not a lot. But however it happened, it is nice to lead the program with a clear-cut, no strings attached, piece of good news. We all deserve that occasionally.

They certainly deserve it tonight in Waco, Texas, where one church is celebrating the release of two of their congregants. You can imagine how their parents are feeling tonight.

And it was good news in Crawford, Texas up the road, as well, where the president praised what he called a rescue, saying he was thankful all eight Westerners were safe. Quite a night for the president, who tonight is giving a former KGB chief a chuck wagon dinner, Texas style, Russian President Vladimir Putin, at the Texas ranch.

The rescue of the aide workers, just one part of so many major developments out of Afghanistan over the past few days. They have pretty much taken over the program this evening. We begin our whip around the world, first at the Pentagon. Jamie McIntyre, on what details are known.

Jamie, the headline on the aide workers.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Pentagon is calling it a rescue mission, but there weren't any doors kicked in, no shots fired, no even hostile forces faced by the U.S. special operations helicopters. Three of them, though, went into Afghanistan and whisked the aide workers to safety in Pakistan. We'll tell you what we know about it. BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

Down to Crawford, Texas, the headline from senior White House correspondent, John King.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president tonight calling this good news. He says he hopes those two Texans are home by Thanksgiving. The president says this closes one chapter in the military campaign in Afghanistan. He also served notice, yet again tonight, the other chapters: knocking the Taliban from power, hunting down Osama bin Laden, could take a while.

BROWN: John, thank you. To the capitol of Afghanistan, Kabul, and Christiane Amanpour. Christiane, the headline from you, please.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is the third morning of the capital city being liberated from the Taliban. So far, everything here is calm. The capital, consolidated under control of the Northern Alliance. But farther to the south here, in Jalalabad and Kandahar, the situation is still very fluid.

BROWN: Christiane, it's nice to see you. It's been a little bit. And finally, the crash of American Airlines 587. Kathleen Koch working on the investigation. Kathleen, the headline, please.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, investigators are zeroing in on the tail fin. Why was it that it broke off so cleanly, virtually unscathed? Was it turbulent winds spun off by a preceding aircraft, or was it a structural weakness? The investigators are beginning to narrow the possibilities -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kathleen, back to you. Back to all of you shortly.

We begin tonight with the rescue of the eight western aide workers, including the American women, two of them, from Afghanistan. We'll have three reports tonight. Jamie McIntyre, on what we know about the military's role and John King with the president, as well as his meeting with the Russian president at his Texas ranch.

But we start in Pakistan, where the eight were flown sometime today. Tom Mintier is in Islamabad. Tom, what you can tell us?

TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, there's one man who doesn't care how it happened, where it happened, when it happened. He's just glad it happened. And that would be John Mercer, the father of Heather Mercer, who we caught in the shower this morning getting ready to go out to the airport here in Chaklala, the air base just outside Islamabad.

We did confirm through Pakistani officials that that was going to be the air base where the U.S. military helicopters would have landed probably 15, 20 minutes ago. The American ambassador, Wendy Chamberlin, was on the scene. Reporters were blocked from entering the air base. They were going to have a private reunion there on the tarmac of the air base, and then each of the individual detainees would be taken, two to the American embassy, two to the Australian embassy, and four to the German embassy here, for repatriation back home.

So they have been on the ground for some time, but reporters and photographers basically prevented from going into the air base to see these reunions take place. Mr. Mercer said he would not believe it until he was able to stand in front of his daughter and look into her eyes, that she had indeed been released.

Just 48 hours ago he received some very disturbing news, that when Kabul was falling at around midnight, the Taliban came to the house where they had been holding her and several other of the detainees, loaded them up in a pickup truck for a drive to Kandahar.

Now, we don't know whether that drive was ever completed. But in the middle of the night this morning, a few hours ago, word came out that the detainees had been indeed rescued by the Americans, apparently handed over to a representative from the International Red Cross, by the Taliban, who indeed called the Americans. And the special forces helicopters went in to whisk them to Pakistan, where they are right now -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, I have a bunch of questions. Let me start with the relatively easy one, I guess. Do we know how Mr. Mercer found out?

MINTIER: He probably found out the same way we got in touch with him. He never travels very far or stands very far away from a blue cell phone that is his line of communication back to the United States. It has been his line of communication to the Taliban embassy, to the U.S. embassy. He's really been sort of a mini diplomat, trying to secure the release of his daughter relentlessly, day and night, that I've talked to him.

He has, as I said before, been on a real emotional roller coaster. One minute, thinking they were about to be released, then the U.S. rejecting that Taliban offer. And as I said, two days ago, when the Taliban were leaving Kabul and they were loaded up in a pickup truck, then his emotions went down, thinking that this was not going to mean, just because Kabul had been liberated, that his daughter, Heather Mercer, and the other seven detainees would be liberated.

So I'm sure that his cell phone rang very early. Probably someone at the American embassy or the State Department, or the Pentagon, even, calling him and saying that they had Heather Mercer in their possession and they were on the way to Pakistan to get ready to receive her. So he was in the shower when we talked to him, and was preparing to go and meet his daughter, which is probably taking place right now.

BROWN: And, Tom, I understand and appreciate you're reading tea leaves here, but it is your belief, at least, that the Taliban, in some sort of negotiation, handed the eight over to the International Red Cross, correct?

MINTIER: That's what we're hearing. President Bush was questioned in Texas just a few moments ago about the word "rescued," and he used the word "facilitated rescue." What we had been hearing on the ground was that they were turned over to a representative of the International Red Cross, who facilitated their pickup by the U.S. special forces.

But we'll probably be hearing from the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on the actual nuts and bolts of how this rescue, how this operation worked -- where the American helicopters came into Afghanistan, picked these eight detainees up and brought them to the safety of Pakistan.

BROWN: Tom, thank you. It's been a busy morning there for you. Tom Mintier in Islamabad, thank you very much.

As Tom mentioned, U.S. special forces airlifted the eight to safety. There have been little hints as to how this was all accomplished, or "rescue" was the president's word. But it seems clear now to us, at least, that it was not a rescue in any sort of classic sense.

Here's what we know. Back to Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, who's reading a few tea leaves of his own. Jamie, good evening again.

MCINTYRE: Good evening, Aaron.

Well, no one at the Pentagon is going to dispute the president when he uses the word "rescue." And certainly the eight western aide workers probably feel like they've been rescued. But according to Pentagon sources, this was not a situation in which the U.S. helicopters were going into an area of hostile fire, or where they needed to fire a shot, in fact, to pick up these workers.

According to sources, the most likely helicopter that would have been used was probably one of the special operations MH-53 Pavlow helicopters. These have been used by U.S. special operations forces, U.S. Air Force forces, that are based in Pakistan as well as Uzbekistan. We presume the helicopters would have come from there.

According to the account we have here at the Pentagon, the Taliban turned over the eight western aide workers to the International Red Cross, and then that's how the pickup was facilitated. Again, three of those helicopters dispatched to pick them up. Tight secrecy around it until they were out of Afghan airspace and safe in Pakistan.

Again, the Pentagon called it an extraction. President Bush called it a rescue mission, and nobody here at the Pentagon is going to dispute the commander-in-chief. But the key information is that all of them were brought out and reported to be in good physical condition.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, in a statement tonight, simply said that U.S. forces performed the extraction well, and that the Americans should be proud of them -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, do we know where in the country they were picked up? We knew, or we believed they were released en route to Kandahar about this time last night. Do we know anything about where? MCINTYRE: Well, according to the Pentagon, they were picked up in a place called Ghazli (ph), Afghanistan, which is about 50 miles southwest of Kabul. So presumably, that's about as far as they got, when the Taliban, for whatever reasons, which are not clear, decided they needed to shed themselves of their detainees and continue wherever the were doing.

BROWN: I dare say, Jamie, the briefing tomorrow at the Pentagon is going to be full of questions about how this was accomplished: who the intermediaries were, how this negotiation worked. Thank you for your efforts tonight. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon.

In his speech before Congress, when he in effect declared war on the Taliban and the terrorists that the Taliban harbor, the president called for the release of the aid workers. And tonight he said simply that mission has now been accomplished. The president is now in Crawford, Texas, dining with the Russian president.

So is John King, at least the Crawford part. Not the dining part -- John.

KING: Not the dining part, Aaron.

We learn more about the president every day of this campaign. Today we learned he has a pretty good poker face. When he greeted President Putin at the ranch today, the president knew this operation was in the works. He was all smiles, a little small talk with reporters, hand shakes with the Russian president, not showing his worry at all.

But tonight, after those western aide workers were safely in Pakistan, the president said he has been quite worried since they were spirited out of Kabul, that they would be taken to a building that would be among the United States military targets.

The president thanking the International Red Cross for facilitating this rescue. He says he uses that term not because of this particular operation, but because the Taliban still active in the county. Mr. Bush saying you never know what the Taliban is going to do.

Tonight, the president spoke to reporters. He called this incredibly good news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm pleased with the way our military has conducted its operations, and I am glad to report to the American people, that this chapter of Afghan theater has ended in a very positive and constructive way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: This chapter closed, the president said. But he and other administration officials making clear throughout the day, there has been concern in the administration that if the Taliban falls, which many think might happen in the next several days, that support for the military strikes would wane.

But Vice President Dick Cheney, earlier today, saying the campaign must continue. The president making clear the ultimate target, next, knock the Taliban from power. After that, find Osama bin Laden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: In the meantime we're making substantial gains on the ground. As I told the American people, this could take a while. And I'm patient. And I'm steady. And our military is -- and our troops on the ground are on the hunt to accomplish the objective. And we will stay there until we do accomplish the objective.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Note, the president's reference there to troops on the ground, on the hunt. An increasingly dangerous operation, finding bin Laden now, but also, U.S. officials say they are increasingly confident, because they believe they have significantly reduced the area of Afghanistan in which he can hide. Just where to go from here with the military operation, the subject of urgent discussions now with the leaders of the international coalition.

The prime minister of Great Britain, Tony Blair, and the president's guest tonight, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. The president greeted him at the ranch in the daylight hours. Dinner tonight, as you noted, an informal, casual atmosphere at the ranch. But President Putin himself said it was time to go into the mountains and hunt the terrorists down if necessary.

We will see the leaders here in Crawford tomorrow in the daytime. We are told they are discussing what would be next, what would be best, next, for the military campaign still to come -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thanks. Senior White House correspondent John King, in Crawford, Texas.

Now to the war, where the pace of developments over the past 48 hours has been nothing short of frantic. Here's the latest there. U.S. officials say the key eastern city of Jalalabad is now under the control of the anti-Taliban forces. They also say the airport outside the southern city of Kandahar, the Taliban home base, as you know by now, has fallen as well.

And we're hearing of an attack on Al Qaeda members that has produced results, it seems. Trying to keep track of all of this, CNN's David Ensor, who joins us now from Washington. David, good evening to you.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.

As you say, U.S. officials have told CNN that on Tuesday, they attacked a building which they believed contained a number of senior Al Qaeda personnel. That building was destroyed and they believe that all those who were in the building at the time were killed. Now, there's no suggestion that Osama bin Laden himself was in the building. They couldn't rule it out entirely. They suspect that he's somewhere rather safer than a building that exposed. But this is an important development, they believe, in the sense that they believe they've eliminated some of the senior leadership of Al Qaeda.

Now, officials all day have been giving us details here and there about developments on the ground in Afghanistan: the fall of Jalalabad, the fall of Kandahar airport. We're now told that the Taliban basically has been reduced to several pockets of resistance, in Kandahar itself, which of course is a heartland of Taliban support, in Bagram and in Qonduz, in the north. And we understand that there has been some fierce fighting around that city of Qonduz in the north, where there still is a substantial force that is pro-Taliban.

But we said last night, Aaron, that there was optimism among Bush administration officials that the Taliban rule soon may be over. It's looking like it could be over very soon indeed.

BROWN: As you and I sit here and talk right now, is there a functioning government in Afghanistan?

ENSOR: If you regard the forces of the Northern Alliance, who are now in Kabul, as representing a transitional government of sorts, then yes. Otherwise, I think you'd have to say that there is no functioning government in Afghanistan. Certainly, the Taliban does not rule anywhere much. And it doesn't look as if they will even have any cities to call their own within a day or two.

BROWN: David, thanks. David Ensor in Washington tonight.

And as David mentioned, he talked about three big hotspots, including Qonduz. There, thousands of Taliban fighters have fled. Many are Arab or Pakistani. They can't easily change sides or melt back into the community. Crossing the border may not be an option for them, either. They're trapped, somewhat. They are experienced fighters with their backs against the wall.

More on that from CNN's Satinder Bindra.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When we came up to the Bangi (ph) bridge near Qonduz, the boom of artillery fire told me the Taliban still controls the other side. The Northern Alliance has more than 20,000 Taliban fighters, some of them part of the Al Qaeda terrorist organization, have no escape route, and are making their last stand. Most of them are Arabs, more committed to the war and less like to defect for power or money.

The ferocity of Taliban fire has Northern Alliance fighters scrambling, helter skelter, to pull back. According to the Northern Alliance, their enemy has 60 tanks and 100 pieces of artillery. Still, the local commander says his forces will take this city.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It's 100 percent sure we can both capture and control this area.

BINDRA: Thousands of local villagers fleeing the fighting aren't so sure of such bravado. They say every Northern Alliance attack draws a fierce response.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): When the Northern Alliance wants to attack the Taliban, the Taliban hide in the trenches. And then there is a lot of shouting and firing.

BINDRA: The Northern Alliance says it will continue to beef up its presence here. If these soldiers cross that hill, they could capture the only remaining big northern city not controlled by the Alliance. If captured, Qonduz will open up land routes to ferry in humanitarian relief and other supplies from Tajikistan.

(on camera): But the fight, predict local commanders, will be tough. Perhaps the toughest yet of this war. The Taliban near Bangi bridge have so far resisted all temptations to defect. And many residents living in neighboring towns, just occupied by the Northern Alliance, still fear a Taliban counteroffensive.

Satinder Bindra, CNN, Taloqan, northeastern Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Much happening in Afghanistan, more to report, when NEWSNIGHT continues tonight, on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Back to Afghanistan now. This story, or this war, is in an odd place these days. Clearly, the enemy, the Taliban, are on the run. It's not entirely clear where, or even if they will make a stand. There is a tremendous amount of jockeying going on among other factions in the country. And for all the successes of the last few days, there is still a lot of work to be done.

The Taliban may be falling, but the state of Al Qaeda is somewhat less clear. Once again, Christiane Amanpour joins us from Kabul with the latest. Christiane, good morning to you.

AMANPOUR: Good morning, Aaron.

It's the third day now since Kabul has been liberated from Taliban. And the people here have been relieved over the last few days. The situation here is calm. The Northern Alliance has established its control in this city, saying that it's taken over control of the defense and police ministries. That, they say, is an interim measure until the U.N. comes up with some kind of political settlement for this country.

And further, all the people of Kabul have been out on the streets. After shops were closed over a few days, they started to open again yesterday. The market was bustling, music was being heard again, for the first time in five years, outside in the streets here. Women were venturing out -- women who have been banned from every walk of public life for the last five years -- have been venturing out, wondering whether it's safe for them to try to go back to their work, to try to even just come out and go to the market without being accompanied by a male relative, which used to be the rule for the last five years.

Certainly, this has been a very dynamic situation. The Northern Alliance continues to press forward. What we know is that there is, as you've been reporting, a great deal of movement down in Kandahar and Jalalabad. What we understand is that people in Jalalabad opposing the Taliban are not so much the Northern Alliance, but a group of anti-Taliban Pashtun tribal leaders. And they've been, according to reports, in pitch battles with the Taliban in Kandahar.

Of course in Kandahar, there have Taliban supporters shouting pro-Mullah Omar slogans -- Mullah Omar, being the leader of the Taliban. But it's generally considered that Mullah Omar is on the run. And there have even been reports that Osama bin Laden may be near him, with him. We don't know exactly the fate of Jalalabad, although again, there have been reports that you have suggested, that it's fallen from the Taliban, perhaps into the hands of the anti- Taliban Pashtun tribal leaders.

Of course, in the south, that was what the alliance had always hoped for, that there would be takeover by Pashtuns in the south. Pashtuns coming from the tribal areas, who are opposed to the Taliban. And it seems that they are certainly having some sway down there at the moment -- Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, thanks. Christiane Amanpour, who made her way to Kabul. Good to see you and thank you for your efforts today.

When Kabul fell, one report said that the Pentagon was reacting with cautious pleasure. You could say the same thing about the residents of Kabul. They know better than anyone not to trust men in trucks with guns, claiming to be liberators. But now, at least, they seem to be enjoying, as Christiane noted, the little things, that under Taliban rule might have led to their execution.

CNN's Matthew Chance tonight, from Kabul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Forces, the anti-Taliban, Northern Alliance, on the Kabul streets. Their leaders say this deployment, publicly opposed by Washington, simply couldn't wait. Now these guns are the new facts on the ground in the Afghan capital.

On the city streets, shops are again opening for business, only now free of Taliban restrictions and puritanical rules of conduct. We found workers in this photographic shop busy spicing up their window display. Pictures of any women dressed like this were outlawed under the Taliban. Now, the owner told me, he's covering his shop walls with posters of Indian movie stars. Women themselves, though, are still covering up. At the barbers, more men exercising their newly-reinstated right to a beard trim. And after days of covering the fall of Kabul, I needed a shave myself. The barber, between careful strokes, told me no one he knew was sorry to see the Taliban go, and that he hoped the time had now come for peace here.

In a city ravaged by more than two decades of war, it seemed hopelessly optimistic for them, but understandable, given the tensions of recent weeks.

(on camera): So the overwhelming mood among the people of Kabul is one of optimism mixed with concern. The streets are calm and appear and relatively safe, but no one here knows what the future will bring.

(voice-over): The harsh days of the Taliban are over here. But apprehension about hardships the new rulers of the Afghan capital may bring still weighs heavy.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Kabul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Given what the last five days have been like, it's not surprising that many in Taliban would rather switch than fight. If Afghans are fierce warriors, they're also shrewd judges of which way the battle is going. More on that now from CNN's Sheila MacVicar, in Quetta, Pakistan, on the border.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the Afghan embassy in Islamabad, sullen guards were at the gate, and a mood of uncertainty hung in the air. It was business as usual, they insisted. The Taliban ambassador, who had left in a hurry, would be back.

The ambassador is in Afghanistan, insisted his deputy. He was recalled for consultations in Kandahar. But when we caught up with the ambassador, he was a long way from Kandahar. After a meandering 500-kilometer journey across northern Pakistan, we found him here in a restaurant, at a meeting over lunch.

His lunch companion, an Afghan tribal chief. What is on the table are new alliances, the search for a way for Taliban officials, like the ambassador and Taliban commanders, to abandon their hard line leadership, avoid more bloodshed and find a way to survive.

"I don't know what the future is," says the ambassador. "I'm going to go to Kandahar and see."

The picture from Kandahar is anything but clear. This tribal chief told us of other meetings. Delegations of Pashtun tribal leaders, now loyal to the exiled king, travelling secretly into Afghanistan. "We're waiting for the answer," he said. "We're asking Taliban commanders to give us the date and time when they will defect." It is a slow process of talking and dealing and promising, now made urgent.

At the border, the Taliban are still very visible, still patrolling the other side. There were lines of men returning from the war. Some were wounded, some were young. Some seemed too old to have been in another battle. And their stories were as confused as the situation must be.

Fighting or waiting, more war or not. "There are 40- or 50,000 Taliban in Kandahar," says this fighter, "and they are ready to keep on fighting."

"Everyone in Kandahar is very worried," says this truck driver. "The Taliban are guarding everything." And late this afternoon at that border, we found the ambassador again, going to Afghanistan to see.

Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Quetta, Pakistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The Afghanistan story tonight.

In a moment, the crash -- investigating the crash of flight 587. A damaged black box may hold some answers. An update, when NEWSNIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Now, to today's next major story, American Airlines Flight 587, the other tragedy in this city. Remember the shot of that piece of the planes tail section being hoisted out of the waters of Jamaica Bay?

That piece has become an important part of the investigation. It still has more theories than certainties, but the theories are fascinating.

CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us now with more on that -- Kathleen.

KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, in pursuing these theories they are hoping for some new evidence. They believe a Bridge Authority surveillance camera may have gotten video of the actual crash. Also, there was a business jet that was flying in the area, that on its radio actually, reported detailed the spiraling crash of Flight 587.

All of this comes as the NTSB today for the very first time opened up the crash site to show the full horror of what happened there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The first up-close look at New York's newest ground zero. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you have is you have three homes: one, two and three. And then a fourth, these three are demolished from the aircraft's impact.

KOCH: Impact was violent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The nose of the aircraft, the forward section of the aircraft came down in this manner in this area.

KOCH: Investigators think they are coming closer to a possible cause focusing on why Flight 587's tail fin fell off, landing in Jamaica Bay seconds before it crashed. NTSB investigators at the crash site, say a look at tail section, minus the fin, shows metal mounts and bolts that hold the fin were still attached to the plane's body.

But the graphite composite material where the fin attached had been ripped apart. Possible causes: Investigators say repairs had been made to one of the fittings.

GEORGE BLACK, NTSB MEMBER: The left center fitting was found to be de-laminated. It was repaired by the manufacturer.

KOCH: The tail fin was discovered in almost new condition, and showed no signs of being struck or broken off by another object, so American airline mechanics are checking the tails of the 34 other Airbuses in its fleet.

Other possible causes: Turbulence in the wake of a larger Japanese Airline 747 that took off before Flight 587. The planes ended up at one point just 85 seconds apart. And investigators say a 12 mile per hour wind could have blown dangerous turbulence into the path of flight 587.

MARION BLAKEY, NTSB CHAIRMAN: I think what you see in this pattern up here is consistent with wake turbulence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I don't believe the NTSB investigators are looking at a wake turbulence encounter as the cause of this crash. More likely, they are looking at that as a possible contributor, a triggering event.

KOCH: What is tough about pursuing this theory of a tail fin is that it is made of a composite, it is not made out of a metal, and the NTSB does not have as much experience testing strength of a composite. Metal is easily x-rayed for flaws. Composites, say for instance, like fiberglass, are not.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

So, investigators and those also those testing the 35 Airbuses in American Airlines' fleet have a very difficult job ahead of them.

BROWN: Sometimes or often even in these investigations, the way they proceed is they go down a list of things they can rule out until they get one thing left that they can't rule out. Have they been able to rule out things at this point?

KOCH: One more item developed today: They got a better listen to the cockpit voice recorder and they heard sounds that showed that at the same moment that the pilots were saying, we are losing control, we are losing control of this aircraft, the engines were still operating. They were still running, so therefore still attached to the plane. Something else that will eliminate them as possible cause of this accident.

BROWN: At least that's ruled out. Kathleen Koch, thank you.

When NEWSNIGHT continues, Senate majority leader Tom Daschle on making airports safe, getting the economy moving, partisanship on the Hill. We are back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If partisanship took a break after 9-11, it's certainly making a comeback these days. Questions like how to make airports safe, how to jump start the economy, they become debates that make you remember Washington from the old days, nine weeks ago.

Stakes are very high. Both parties under a lot of pressure to get something done quickly. Earlier today we spoke with Senate majority leader Tom Daschle about a wide range of issues. We started on airline security.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Senator, let's talk about first, the airline security bill. It is in conference. We have had some reporting just in the last half hour or so, that there may be a breakthrough of sorts. Tell us what you know.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: Well a breakthrough may be too much of a term, I think, in this case. There are very productive discussions under way, overdue discussions about ways of which to ensure that we can meet our goal, improving the level of security at airports across the board, generally using federal employees. I think we can do that.

BROWN: If you had guess here, would you guess that a final bill would include some federal employees at big airports and then maybe some other combination at smaller and mid-sized airports?

DASCHLE: Well, I think something along those lines is likely to be the end result although, as I say, I think it's premature to even define it as we could today. I think that the most important thing is not federal employees, per se, but federal standards that federal employees, in large measure, can help enforce. I think we can address that, but I think we have to show some flexibility. The key, Aaron, is to get job done. And we have got to get the job done before we leave Washington whenever that is.

BROWN: Economic stimulus seems to be an interesting problem particularly in the Senate because of the Senate rules. Is it fair to say, that today at least, neither side, the Republicans or your side could get a bill out?

DASCHLE: Well the only reason we couldn't get a bill out is that our Republican colleagues chose to use the Senate rules and add that to their advantage. They argue that this wasn't a national emergency, that all of the problems we are facing in this country regarding bioterrorism, with regard to national security, and homeland security was not something that warranted the special emergency designation. But the bottom line is, you are right, we haven't been able to move forward as a result of the parliamentary maneuvering.

BROWN: Actually, what I hear them saying, Senator, is that the Democrats tartered this bill up with all sorts of little pork barrel deals here and there, research on bison and the rest, do they have any point there at all?

DASCHLE: Well, we have an array of challenges we have got to meet. The bottom line is, you can nickel dime this, you can find things that you are going to degree with. The bottom line is, we have to address the needs of homeland security, the needs of unemployed workers, seven and a half million of them, the needs of the country and the economy, trying to move this country forward by making the economy stronger again.

There is no question we have to do all three of those things not by pointing fingers or nickel and diming a bill, but by getting the job done and working together.

BROWN: Move on to something that happened late yesterday. The president signs an extraordinary executive order which would allow, in some circumstances, not citizens, accused of terrorism, to be tried not in civilian courts, but in military tribunals. You first reaction to that?

DASCHLE: My first reaction is that we have got to do everything we possible can do to track down the terrorists and bring them to justice. I do think we have be concerned about constitutional prerogatives and liberties here that may be at stake, but the bottom line is, we have to find a way to make this work.

BROWN: Let me ask the question a little differently, then. History is sometimes unkind to decisions made during wartime in this country. The internment of Japanese Americans for one. Don't you worry, at least a little bit, that in this extraordinary time and this extraordinary circumstance, history may look back on some of the decisions you make, and the president makes and your colleagues make in a very unkind way?

DASCHLE: Well, I think that is a very legitimate concern. And it's why I said just a moment ago that we have really got to consider the Constitutional ramifications here, just as we have had to do on other occasions. We considered those same ramifications when we passed the counterterrorism bill and then required that there be a sunset in that bill to allow us to review, in four years, exactly what we do in that regard. I wouldn't be surprised if we do something similar here. BROWN: A final area, if I may, Sir, it must seem like forever ago, but the fact of the matter is that someone sent an anthrax letter to you. I don't know if they actually thought it would get to you, but they might have. Do you feel like someone was trying to kill you?

DASCHLE: Well, you have to feel that way I guess. But it is not a comfortable feeling. Unfortunately, as you know, it had more of an effect on my staff than it had on me, but it is gratifying to be able to today again, that my staff is doing well, they are healthy, in good spirits.

BROWN: And the office building you all work in, how is that doing?

DASCHLE: Well, unfortunately, we are still not in it. We won't be in it for about three more weeks. But we are getting closer, and I am encouraged by the progress we have made so far.

BROWN: Senator Daschle, we appreciate your time. It's always nice to talk to you.

DASCHLE: My pleasure and thank you.

BROWN: Senate majority leader Tom Daschle.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT now, the search for weapons of mass destruction in Afghanistan. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Just as we came on the air tonight, just before, we saw on the Web a front page story in tomorrow's edition of the "Times of London." And the headline reads "Bin Laden's Nuclear Secret's Found." The paper claims to have discovered a pile of documents in a safe house in Kabul, a house abandoned by the Taliban.

The detail, in so many words, just how to build an atomic bomb. If true -- if true -- it is only the latest development in the ongoing effort American forces have already pinpointed a number of sites where al Qaeda could make chemical or biological weapons. But according to our next guest tonight, they have yet to target those "factories," for lack of a better word, for destruction.

Judith Miller is a senior writer for "The New York Times." She makes her living reporting on the sort of stuff that scares me to death. It's nice to see you, Judy.

JUDITH MILLER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's good to see you, Aaron.

BROWN: What do you make of this report in the "Times of London" today? I didn't give you much to work with there, but based on what we said...

MILLER: Well, I think there is no secret that Osama bin Laden has been trying, really, since 1993, to acquire a nuclear capability and he's also made no secret of his desire for biological and chemical weapons. And we know that he was experimenting in at least one camp that I had the pleasure of driving by last November.

And so, I think one of the important aspects of this war against terrorism is really the war against weapons of mass destruction.

BROWN: His claim the other day to the Pakistani journalist that he had nuclear weapons, that he had chemical weapons, do you believe it?

MILLER: Well, the administration tells me and my colleagues at "The New York Times" that there is no evidence to support that claim, fortunately. There is, however, some intelligence that would suggest that he has been experimenting with chemical agents and crude biological agents at camp I drove by, Durenta (ph) , it was called.

And we know that he is relentless in his pursuit of such weapons. We believe that he has, in particular, already developed some gas that could be used against targets on a small scale. We don't think that he has large amounts of it.

BROWN: This would be Cyanide gas?

MILLER: Yes, that's what we reported on Sunday.

BROWN: And just to give some context here, in the scheme of chemical and biological weapons, cyanide gas is certainly dangerous, but difficult to use?

MILLER: Exactly. And fortunately, difficult to transport, unstable, dangerous to the person transporting it. And one thing we have learned about these organizations and his networks, is that they -- there is really a varying amount of skill. And some of his people are very skilled and others are quite amateurish.

BROWN: How good do you believe the American intelligence is on this subject, in Afghanistan?

MILLER: Well I hope it's very good because a great deal depends on it and a great deal depends on the conclusion, so far, that he hasn't acquired nuclear technology, and in particular, nuclear weapons. I think in general, Aaron, we have to be skeptical about the quality of information in part because biological weapons in particular, are just so darned difficult to spot.

I mean, if you can make a vaccine, you can make a biological weapon. And unless someone is physically present inside the facility, or very close to someone who is, there is almost no way to know for sure what's going on and that's what makes this such a daunting intelligence challenge.

BROWN: And so then on the subject of a vaccine here, you reported in Sunday's edition of the "Times" you and colleague reported that they know of an anthrax vaccine plan that could easily be used for some nefarious purpose. Why not take it out? Are they giving any answers to that question? MILLER: Well, they are not and that's one of the questions my colleague, Jim Rison (ph) and I raised. If we knew, and we know, and we do, that there are three facilities that are capable, we believe, of making that kind of material, why not bomb them? And we are just told, trust us, there are reasons, and on this one I think I'm willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt.

You know, that plant in the north in Mazar-i-Sharif, it was a chemical facility, that is now in the hands of the Northern Alliance, therefore the Americans will have access to it, so we will able to know exactly what did and did not go on at that facility. And that kind of information is terribly important.

On the plants in Kabul, Aaron, I would just like to say this, that plant was refurbished in 1997 by the Red Cross, that vaccine plant. And one can only wonder, what were they thinking? The Taliban was already in control of the capital Kabul. I think even the Red Cross knows that a plant that makes anthrax vaccine could be used to make something worse. The Red Cross said that it was there, but its hasn't been September 11, so we don't really know what went on between then and now.

BROWN: One final question here, let's shift gears. You were in the country a year ago, are you surprised at either or both here, the speed with which the Taliban has collapsed, and the reaction of Afghans to the collapse?

MILLER: Neither surprises me. Because I was convinced after my trip to Kabul and my drive out of the country at the Taliban's suggestion, that the Taliban were hugely unpopular. People who worked in their buildings in the foreign ministry would come to me when their masters weren't looking and say, do you have any food? Do you have anything? Do you have clothes, money, anything, my family is starving?

And these were people who worked with and for them. You could see and feel the anger on people's faces and the helpless and hopelessness. So, it doesn't surprise me that they yearn for not only stability but freedom, and to be normal, because what was going on in that country was not normal.

BROWN: Judy, good to talk to you today.

MILLER: Very nice to see you, Aaron.

BROWN: Come see us again.

MILLER: I would love to.

BROWN: Judith Miller of "The New York Times" on Afghanistan weapons of mass destruction. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We probably should have done this last night on Tuesday, the 9th, beginning of the ninth week since the tragedy of 9-11. We haven't been to ground zero in a while and that is not good. It's a mistake. We need we think, to constantly, or at least frequently be reminded, and this is the best way to do it.

We look at this scene, and we confess, we haven't looked at it in a few days, how different it all looks, how much has been cleared out, how many new pockets of activity there are. Some things remain the same, however. Twenty-four hours a day the effort goes on. For nine weeks now they have been pumping water on that fire. And it's hard for us to tell how much smoke there is from that shot, but clearly there is a reason to do so. Ground zero, nine weeks later. That's NEWSNIGHT. We will see you tomorrow night at 10:00.

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