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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

The Northern Alliance Continues its Siege On Konduz; President Bush Hosts 50 Muslim Diplomats at the White House

Aired November 19, 2001 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.

Well, another week, another tough decision to make. Should we or shouldn't we -- now, before I answer that I need to say a couple things about this program. On the one hand, we want to be -- in fact, we intend to be, a highly respected newscast, a program you can depend on. That means we'll report all the important events of the day.

On the other hand, we want to be different, unpredictable -- irreverent, from time to time. And every now and then these two important goals collide. And for those of us who have to make the tough decisions, tonight is one of those nights.

Honestly, it was hard to eat my take-out Chinese dinner tonight with this decision looming. But the decision was made, and here it is. We are not going to show the president pardoning this year's Thanksgiving turkey. It's a done deal. We've decided. We'll probably regret it. You may turn to another cable channel, but we think it's right.

And if you think any of this is made up, you don't know me at all. On to the news we go. And I dare say, it is predictably unpleasant.

U.S. bombs continue to fall and will fall during Ramadan because, as the president said today, evil has no holy days. Tonight he held a traditional Ramadan dinner at the White House, the first president ever to do that.

He also did something it's hard to imagine any Republican would ever do: massively expand the federal government. The airport security bill is now law, and that will make the nation's baggage screeners federal workers.

In Afghanistan, it is a dangerous time to be telling the story of the war. Four journalists en route from Jalalabad to Kabul, ambushed. The fear is, they are dead.

There's also, though, a great story out of Afghanistan tonight. A story about going to the movies that has absolutely nothing to do with "Harry Potter." Kabul residents stormed the city's most famous movie theater to see the first movie in five years. We'll go to the movies, later in the program. There's also a big push by the White House today to speed up the humanitarian relief effort in Afghanistan. We'll talk with the man who briefed the president on what's needed. Essentially, they need just about everything. And we'll have a debate over whether we're sacrificing civil liberties to stop the terrorists.

A lot to do, but first our whip around the world, which, as it turns out, is mostly a whip around Afghanistan tonight. We'll start with southern Afghanistan and CNN's Nic Robertson. Nic, the headline, please.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Spin Boldak, just across the border from Pakistan, two-and-a-half hours drive from the Taliban stronghold of Kandahar, still in the hands of the Taliban. And Taliban commanders here tell us they deny rumors that their leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, is negotiating the surrender of Kandahar.

BROWN: Nic, back with you shortly. In northern Afghanistan, CNN's Satinder Bindra, the headline, please.

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, negotiations are on with the Taliban inside Konduz to surrender. But Taliban commanders say they'll not surrender to the Northern Alliance. They say they'll agree only to a U.N.-supervised surrender. Now, as these talks go on, many residents of Konduz are getting more and more scared. They are more uncertain of their future, and they're beginning to flee -- Aaron.

BROWN: Satinder on the videophone, back to you.

In Kabul, CNN's Christiane Amanpour. Christiane, the headline, please.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron: "Heartbreak and Happiness." On the one hand, as you said, a very dangerous time to be trying to cover this war. Four of our colleagues may have perished on the way from Jalalabad to Kabul. We're still trying to figure that out.

Also, in the heartbreak category, this country, the poorest in the world, needs everything -- needs everything, and is waiting for it very quickly. But a little bit of happiness, as you said, television is back on the air and the movie studios are open, for the first time since the Taliban closed them down five years ago.

BROWN: Christiane, talk to you shortly. Now on to the White House and efforts to help feed the people of Afghanistan, CNN's Kelly Wallace on the lawn. Kelly, the headline, please.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the headline is, with winter drawing closer, the administration stepping up efforts to help starving Afghans. Tomorrow, a barge will take off from a Louisiana port with more than $5 million worth of the U.S. food aid. And tonight, the president hosting the first-ever break the fast Ramadan dinner at the White House, a way for the administration to publicly make the case that it is sensitive to Muslims, even as the military campaign continues -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Food relief in a moment, the rest of you as well.

We begin with the war. Nine days after the Northern Alliance took Mazar-e Sharif, eight major cities have now fallen. But two, Konduz and Kandahar, remain up for grabs. What looked easy last Monday is anything but that tonight. Taliban hanging on, trying to deal its way out of Kandahar, and shoot its way out of Konduz.

The Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said today no negotiated surrender. No deals. As for bin Laden and al Qaeda, U.S. planes are bombing possible hideouts. But special forces are not yet going cave to cave. They're counting on a $25 million reward to do the trick.

So we begin back with CNN's Nic Robertson, who is following the war from the town of Spin Boldak, still in Taliban hands, on the road to Kandahar. Nic, good morning to you.

ROBERTSON: Good morning. This is a border town just across the border from Pakistan. It is about two-and-a-half hours drive from Kandahar. And it is here that the Taliban still appear in control. Their security here is tight. We went out with them on patrol last night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Armed and ready for action: Taliban fighters prepare for a night patrol in the border town of Spin Boldak.

As they drive around town, Commander Haqqani whispers this night's password to centuries on checkpoint duty. Every citizen out after curfew, subject to close scrutiny. He says despite Taliban losses in the north, spirits are high. And his men now know they must be ready for action.

He denies rumors their leaders are negotiating to hand over Kandahar, their spiritual capital.

MOHAMMAD SYED HAQQANI, SPIN BOLDAK COMMANDER (through translator): These are just rumors. Mullah Mohammed Omar has never been ready to negotiate with them. And he has never done it.

ROBERTSON: This night's watch ends quietly at the floodlit border with Pakistan, but with no chance to see the situation beyond the edge of town.

(on camera): So far the Taliban have only allowed to us come to Spin Boldak, just across the border inside Afghanistan. For now, the Taliban say, there are no plans to take to us Kandahar, their spiritual capital.

(voice-over): By day, the border town shows the signs of the ongoing conflict. Refugee camps line the side of the road. Five- thousand families live here now, according to Taliban officials. Although our roadside glimpse of the camps is insufficient to verify these claims, the tented accommodation appears somewhat busier than when we last visited the border town three weeks ago.

And signs, too, of the search for water: wells being sunk into the dry desert floor. Refugees, quick to flood to anyone who might be able to help them. She tells us she has fled the bombing in Kandahar. And this refugee adds he and his family are forced to sleep in the open, because, he says, there are not enough tents to go around.

Always dusty and somewhat chaotic, Spin Boldak seems to be one of the last bastions of Taliban control. And while their grip on power here still appears firm, gauging how they are faring deeper in their heartland around Kandahar remains difficult.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now, Taliban commanders here tell us that they are in regular contact with senior Taliban officials in and around the city of Kandahar. They tell us that in Kandahar, the situation is normal. They say that if these tribal groups, who the Taliban have purportedly, according to these tribal groups inside Pakistan -- are purportedly negotiating with, if those groups try and take the Taliban on in a fight, they say they are more than ready to meet them.

They say that their spirits are high, and that they have fought with these groups before, and feel that they can defeat them. However, they do say that if their leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, tells them to leave Spin Boldak and head for the mountains, then they say they are prepared to do that -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, as briefly as you can, any evidence that their morale has suffered after a week of heavy losses?

ROBERTSON: They say it hasn't. Their commanders say their spirits are high. However, when we push him on that about all the losses, he said these weren't really losses, they were tactical retreats. He said we didn't want the people of those cities to be punished in bombardments, so we left those city.

So the way they play the commanders here play it to their men is this -- all these retreats were tactical, and therefore their spirits are higher. Though he does say that the men now know they must be ready at this time to fight -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thanks. Nic Robertson, on the border tonight. Thank you very much.

If the U.S. is saying no to a negotiation as a way out in Kandahar, al Qaeda fighters are saying the same thing in Konduz. They're making it plain that any Taliban leader talking about cutting a deal faces a very short life. Meantime, the refugees keep coming.

Once again, CNN's Satinder Bindra, who is in the northern part of Afghanistan on the videophone.

BINDRA: Aaron, that's right. The refugees are beginning to flee Konduz, even as negotiations are going on to try and get the Taliban in Konduz to surrender. Already, Northern Alliance commanders are saying they'll be lenient to the local Taliban fighters, the Afghan fighters. But as far as the hard line Taliban fighters are concerned, the Chechens, the Arabs and the Pakistanis, many commanders here want to see them tried as war criminals.

Now, even as all these talks go on, the U.S. is keeping up the pressure. It's continuing to bomb front-line Taliban positions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Our cameraman and producer were a mile away from a Taliban position outside the city of Konduz, when U.S. B-52 bombers attacked. When you see these explosions up close, you know that anybody, and anything alive on these hilltops would probably not survive.

The people of Konduz live in a valley, and when they look up to the hills, they can see and hear these bombs, which is why so many of them are fleeing. On the road heading out of Konduz, I ran into this large extended family. Store owner Ahmad Khalid says his entire family has been walking for 12 hours.

Three year-olds, 4 year-olds, 5-year-olds, all walking through the day and night. He says most U.S. bombs seem to be hitting their targets, but the odd bomb is going astray. And that's enough to send him and his family fleeing.

AHMAD KHALID, REFUGEE (through translator): Out of the 20 bombs that the U.S. planes dropped, one bomb fell on a residential area and killed three people -- two men and one woman.

BINDRA: We asked a number of refugees how they were able to get out of Konduz past the Taliban, and they all told us the Taliban are hiding in the hills to take cover from the American bombing.

(on camera): Concerned about civilian casualties during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, the Northern Alliance says it's willing to delay an attack on Konduz. Northern Alliance commanders say they'll soon be sending a delegation there to try and convince thousands of trapped Taliban fighters to surrender.

(voice-over): Negotiating a surrender will not be easy. About 10 days ago, these Northern Alliance soldiers were invited into Konduz, only to walk into a trap. Faced with a hail of rocket and artillery fire, these tanks were forced to beat a hasty retreat.

No one understands the volatility of such a situation better than the fleeing residents of Konduz. As for Ahmad Khalid and his family, they got a small break before nightfall. A truck driver agreed to give them a ride into the neighboring town of Taloqan. Soon, they'll be a fair distance from the fighting and the bombs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now, Aaron, I mentioned the Northern Alliance will not attack as long as these negotiations are going on, but the senior-most Northern Alliance commander here tells us if these negotiations fail, then he'll keep his options open. And he may launch attacks against the Taliban in some sectors -- Aaron.

BROWN: Satinder, thank you. Satinder Bindra, in the northern part of Afghanistan on the videophone tonight.

Long before the war began, life in Afghanistan was brutal at best, and in any case, terribly short. Life expectancy, only about 43 years. It's the kind of existence that wars can make worse, but perhaps this war will make better, eventually. At least, that's the hope.

For more on that side of the Afghan story, we turn again to CNN's Christiane Amanpour -- Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Well, Aaron, that hope is alive, and certainly the U.N. is working against time to try to nail down a political situation, and at the same time, try to put humanitarian aid into this country. It is really one of the poorest, one of the most wretched in the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Imagine being born in Afghanistan. You have a 25 percent chance of dying before you reach your fifth birthday. Imagine being pregnant. Every 15 minutes, a woman dies giving birth from entirely preventable causes. Eighteen percent of Afghan babies will die before they reach the age of one.

And those who do make it beyond that, as well as their parents, in all, half the country's 20 million people, can look forward to a life entirely dependent on handouts from the international community.

"Our minds are in a bad state," says Abdul Lativ (ph). "Even our children are suffering from nervous disorders."

After 20 crushing years of war, Afghanistan's children are virtually a lost generation. By 1998, the U.N. declared the nation's education system totally collapsed. Ninety percent of girls and 2/3 of boys are not enrolled in school. Barely a school remains intact.

(on camera): It's almost unbelievable, but this is these elementary students' classroom. There are no tables, no chairs. And this is all that's left of the blackboard.

(voice-over): No doors, windows or walls, either. We asked this group to show us how they took class. Eleven-year-old Abdul Salim (ph) lined up his classmates on the wintry concrete floor. We asked him how he imagined schools in America would look like. "They would have tables and chairs and real lessons. And the teacher would come to school every day," he says. Here, this is all they know.

They don't know about clean water, either. Only 12 percent of the country has access to that. And only 1/3 has access to health care. The International Red Cross is among the biggest providers, especially in rehabilitating victims of one of Afghanistan's most vicious killers: land mines. Forty-thousand wounded, 400,000 dead, since 1979.

Mines have been left everywhere -- near homes, in cities, and in fertile fields. Even if there were no new victims, Alberto Cairo expects his prosthetic center to be here another 50 years, treating existing patients. But he does think that finally there may be a bright side to this dark vision.

ALBERTO CAIRO, ICRC HEAD OF ORTHOPEDIC CENTER: All the world is looking at Afghanistan. Before I remember speaking to friends in Italy, some of them didn't even know where Afghanistan was. Now everybody knows. So there are great expectations.

AMANPOUR: Expectations at the maternity hospital, that they may update their 25-year-old operating rooms. Expectations that if things were different, they may have been able to save another life. As it is, they have struggled in vain to keep this mother from losing her newborn child.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now, as part of the war on terror, the United States and the international community has promised to help reconstruct Afghanistan, and many are saying that's the only way to keep it stable and free from the kind of anarchy and lawlessness that breeds terrorism -- Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. Christiane Amanpour, outside Kabul tonight. Break your heart.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT: preventing the humanitarian disaster, a major priority for the U.S. government. We'll tell that story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Pentagon briefings almost always update the media on what the U.S. is doing to feed the people of Afghanistan. And there are both humanitarian and practical reasons for that. The humanitarian part is obvious. The practical? Well, let's just say the U.S. government does not want to be blamed for creating a human disaster. And with winter coming, the White House is making a major effort to get more food and supplies to more people, faster.

Joined again from the White House by correspondent Kelly Wallace. Kelly, good evening.

WALLACE: Good evening again to you, Aaron.

Well, Aaron, the White House definitely today trying to put the spotlight on what the U.S. is doing to help the people of Afghanistan. There were briefings here at the White House, fact sheets handed out -- all part of a stepped-up public relations offensive, especially during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, to reinforce the message that the military campaign, which won't stop during the Muslim holiday, is not targeting Muslims. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): A first for the White House: a president hosting 50 Muslim diplomats for a dinner marking the end of the day-long fast during Ramadan.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As this feast breaks the Ramadan fast, America is also sharing our table with the people of Afghanistan.

WALLACE: Two messages on this day: that the U.S., waging war in Afghanistan during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, is sensitive to Muslim customs. And No. 2, that the U.S. is trying to help starving Afghans before winter arrives.

BUSH: This good nation is doing everything we can to move enormous amounts of food into the areas where people are likely to starve. I'm talking about thousands of tons of, metric tons, of food.

WALLACE: To drive that point home and help the P.R. campaigns, there were samples of that food on display at the White House. The administration also touted the more than 1.5 million daily rations like these the military has air-dropped. And with most of northern Afghanistan no longer in Taliban control, the Pentagon revealed it was now able to change its strategy.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We are now out of the strictly airdrop stage, so to speak, and are turning the efforts towards rebuilding some roads and bridges, and restoring other infrastructure.

WALLACE: So that relief trucks can move freely. The stakes are high. There were more than one million Afghan refugees before September 11th, and now another almost 200,000. And U.S. officials know a refugee crisis would complicate efforts to ensure a stable post-Taliban Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And tomorrow, a barge will take off from a Louisiana port carrying more than $5 million worth of U.S.-processed food, headed for the people of Afghanistan. Wednesday the British will highlight their humanitarian efforts. Again, all part of an orchestrated campaign to get food quickly to the people who need it. But also, to make sure Muslims around the world know just what the coalition is doing -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Wallace at the White House this evening.

Joining us now, a man who briefed the president today on the situation in Afghanistan -- he's just back from the area. Andrew Nastios is the administrator at the U.S. Agency for International Development, and he joins us from Washington.

Welcome. ANDREW NASTIOS, ADMINISTRATOR, U.S. AGENCY FOR INT'L DEV.: Good evening.

BROWN: What's the biggest obstacle you face? Is it war, or is it the country of Afghanistan, in a sense?

NASTIOS: Well, two weeks ago I would have said it was the war. But the fact is, 75 percent of the people at risk in this famine live in the upper half, the northern half of the country. And that now has been liberated by the Northern Alliance, so I don't expect that the war or the Taliban is going to be a major impediment to relief efforts.

Our biggest problem right now is the winter coming on. The northern half of the country is in the highland area. That is where the epicenter of the famine is, which has been caused by three years of drought. This, by the way, pre-dates September 11 by five or six months. Many people were beginning to die last spring. We spent $174 million from the U.S. government, toward famine relief in Afghanistan prior to September 11th.

The president has nearly doubled that to $320 million, and we're trying to move that food into the highland areas, before the snows block the passes, which will take place sometime at the end of December.

BROWN: Kelly talked just now talked about a barge leaving from Louisiana. No joke, but that's a slow boat to Afghanistan. There must be a plan to get food there fairly quickly, and not the barge.

NASTIOS: There is. Sixty-five thousand tons of wheat arrived two weeks ago. It's being off-loaded in Iran ports, to moved up by train to the central Asian republics of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. Then it will be moved south into northern Afghanistan. We've purchased 30,000 tons of food in the area, 15,000 tons in Khazakstan, and some lentils, beans and vegetable oils in those central Asian republics, for -- which will be moved immediately within the next week.

Another 100,000 tons is being loaded now for shipment that will arrive sometime in mid-December. Then there's the barge that you just mentioned, which is vegetable oil, beans and lentils.

BROWN: What is -- how do you define success here, and how do you define failure?

NASTIOS: In any famine, if you catch it in time -- which we believe we may have done this time -- you can keep the death rates way down at a low level. You don't have what happened in Ethiopia in 1985, where one million people died, or in the North Korean famine, where 2.5 million people died.

Thousands of people have already died. We want to keep the death rates low, and move as much of the country into a reconstruction phase as soon as possible, so people can feed themselves. During the Soviet civil war, 50 percent of the irrigation system of the country was destroyed. It's an arid country. Without irrigation, people don't grow crops. Those irrigation ditches were never repaired.

Taliban had a scorched earth policy in opposition areas, where they just wiped out all the irrigation systems. Many of the animal herds have died, the domesticated animal herds, from the drought. And so the country food supply has declined from 4 million tons a year to 2.3 million tons last year -- massive decline. That's why there's famine conditions in some areas.

BROWN: Well, sir, we wish you nothing but success. Whatever else is going on, the plight of the people in Afghanistan is painful to watch. And we hope the government is successful in doing something about that. Thanks for your time tonight.

NASTIOS: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, hundreds of people behind bars since September 11th, facing a different kind of legal process, you might imagine. And they're asking what kind of country is this? We'll talk about law and order in wartime, a different beast, when NEWSNIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Earlier today, two immigrants appeared in federal court. A Salvadoran man plead guilty to falsifying an I.D. card for one of the 9-11 hijackers, and a Saudi admitted to lying on his visa application. They are among hundreds of immigrants caught up in a dragnet since 9-11.

They face a rougher kind of justice than you might suspect -- which is not to make any judgment about the right or wrong of it all. In fact, as far as we can tell in our reporting, it's perfectly legal, if also a little uncomfortable.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Crammed into the back of a small Brooklyn restaurant, these men are part of a new reality in America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One time you know, they just come for one guy, they pick him up. The next night, you know, the FBI and immigration come to get her, and they just go to their home for no -- you know, no any warrant or no nothing.

BROWN: All are Muslim, most are Arab-Americans, and they all know someone currently being detained as part of a nationwide dragnet for terrorism suspects. A dragnet that is spread from New York City to the Arab communities in southern California and Dearborn, Michigan. A dragnet that has been successful at identifying immigration violators, but so far, apparently unsuccessful at linking anyone to the September 11th attacks.

KERRY BRETZ, ATTORNEY, NEW YORK CITY: Is it OK to detain somebody for six or seven weeks without seeing a judge? If they do see a judge, do we know whether or not they've had opportunity to call counsel? We don't know any of this.

BROWN: Kerry Bretz is a New York City attorney who's dealt with the Immigration and Naturalization Service for years. Three of his clients are now being held as part of the wave of detentions nationwide, and he wonders if the government crackdown might not slow, rather than speed up the investigation.

BRETZ: They're acting in such secrecy that it's unprecedented in anything I've ever experienced before and it's probably hindering their investigation as opposed to helping the investigation. The very community they are trying to, I guess, get information from they've alienated.

BROWN: If the government's actions are unprecedented, so too is the crime. Perhaps as many as 5,000 innocents murdered in a single morning, so it is not surprising that the government would use every means within the law to track down collaborators and the government is unapologetic about doing so.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Aggressive detention of lawbreakers and material witnesses is vital to preventing, disrupting or delaying new attacks. It is difficult for a person in jail or under detention to murder innocent people or to aid or abet in terrorism.

BROWN: It is also difficult for these people to find a lawyer to make their case before a judge.

JANET SABEL, NEW YORK CITY LEGAL AID SOCIETY: Their access to the outside world is extremely limited. They are entitled to make one phone call a week to a lawyer, and remember that they're trying to look for lawyers at this point. So they don't have a particular lawyer who is going to respond to their call.

They have this one legal call per week and they also have one social call per month.

BROWN: Not all the detainees are simple immigration violators. Osama Awa Dawa (ph) was arrested shortly after the attacks. He was living in San Diego then brought to New York. According to the government, he lied to a Federal Grand Jury. He lied when he denied he was acquainted with one of the terrorists, a hijacker aboard the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.

RANDALL HAMUD, ATTORNEY, SAN DIEGO: I don't believe there's any intent on his part to lie. I think he was confused after a very long day of questioning.

BROWN: Even so, says his attorney, Awa Dawa has no proven link with the attacks.

HAMUD: The government's oppressive -- oppressive treatment of these prisoners is again interfering with the attorney-client relationship. Oftentimes when I was trying to see him in New York, I was interfered with and apparently that's standard operating procedure. BROWN: For its part, the Justice Department says the detainee's rights are not being violated. An interim regulation, posted a week after the attacks, gives the INS freedom to hold the detainees for a reasonable period of time with no definition thus far of the word reasonable, which defense lawyers say is the whole idea.

BRETZ: So this is a way to do what they can, keep the immigration proceeding going slow, use whatever legal maneuvers they can, keep the information and the secrecy, keep the information limited, keep the secrecy a very important part of the proceedings in the hope that if there is some kind of link, they can develop that link.

BROWN: In a moment, due process, public safety and the new normal. We'll talk about it with Charles Krauthammer and Defense Attorney Gerry Spence when News Night continues for Monday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Not long ago, this would have been a purely hypothetical discussion, but that was before hundreds of people were taken into custody and before anti-terror bills and military tribunals, and of course, it was also before 5,000 people lost their lives.

Finding the right balance between civil rights and public safety is anything but academic. Just the same, it isn't that much easier now either.

Joining us from Washington, Charles Krauthammer, whose essay in Time Magazine is titled "In Defense of Secret Tribunals." And from Atlanta tonight, Gerry Spence, a defense lawyer, author of "Seven Simple Steps to Personal Freedom." It's nice to have you both with us.

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, "TIME": Pleasure to be here.

BROWN: Let me start, Mr. Krauthammer, is there anything in this string of things that the administration has done, eavesdropping on lawyers and inmates in some cases, military tribunals, the anti-terror bill, any of that that makes a good solid conservative like you uncomfortable?

KRAUTHAMMER: No, it doesn't because this is wartime and the first responsibility of any government in wartime or peacetime is to protect its citizenry. We lost 5,000 Americans. We are under attack. We are in a war.

We have a long history of making compromises with civil liberties during war, the Second World War, the Civil War, Revolutionary War. We had secret military tribunals in every one of those wars. It's established American practice and it's done to defend out country and in the end our Constitution and our civil liberties. If the bad guys win, we're not going to have any civil liberties.

BROWN: Would you feel at all easier if there is any unease at all, if this had gone through the legislative process as opposed to in the case of military tribunals at least, as opposed to executive order?

KRAUTHAMMER: Of course it would be preferable if it did, but we know our Congress. It would have taken five years. The war would be over by then.

BROWN: And Mr. Spence, do you acknowledge that in time of war, the rules have to change and this is a time of war?

GERRY SPENCE, ATTORNEY: Well, certainly it's a time of just cause, but I don't know - and certainly we're at war, but with whom and under what circumstances is another question. The war changes every day and we've never had a declaration of war. But that's a technicality.

The point is that well, think of it. How would you like to see this country disintegrate to the kind of countries that we've been objecting to, like to China and to Iran, that we point our fingers across the world to Cuba and say "you violate civil rights" and now, nobody has civil rights in a military tribunal where we have police officers sitting there, military men sitting there who don't have to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt, behind closed doors in a secret tribunal where they can levy the death penalty. Not even proof beyond a reasonable doubt, just proof, and not by a majority, not by a unanimous verdict but by a majority.

So, when it's all over, we look at ourselves and we say "who are we?" I mean where have we gone? Have we become them?

BROWN: That is, in fact, the question. Let me ask Mr. Krauthammer that then. It seems to me that there are two points made. One has become almost a cliche in this discussion, that we become like the people we're trying to deceive, and the other is I think a more complicated one, which is what is this justice that we're dispensing?

KRAUTHAMMER: We are dispensing the justice that has been practiced for centuries, called the Law of War. It was dispensed in the Second World War where we had military courts try Germans who had massacred American POW's. We had military courts in the Revolutionary War.

The idea that if an al Qaeda terrorist on his way to kill 5,000 Americans is apprehended throws up his hands, all of a sudden he's invested with the Bill of Rights is absurd. These secret military courts are applied only to foreigners, only to foreign belligerents. And here is the important point, it's applied to foreign belligerents who are known in international law as illegal or unlawful belligerents, because they have deliberately attacked civilians. They have broken the laws of war, and under the Constitution, under International Law and under all practices, those kinds of people, spies and saboteurs can and are generally in all practices, all nations, tried in military courts.

We did that in the Second World War and the Revolutionary War and we should do it today again.

BROWN: And Mr. Spence, the last time you and I talked, we talked about the absolute circus that would be created if Osama bin Laden went on trial. That kind of thing can't be, do you agree, very good for justice?

SPENCE: Well, I think any time that you have a trial that you're going to have a fight over what the facts are and you call it a circus, but I call it the processes under the Constitution in which people have the right to be heard and have a right to cross-examine the witnesses against them, and that we, you know, we are America. We ought to be shining this beacon across the lands

BROWN: I wanted to - let me just say -

SPENCE: I wanted to say just one more thing.

BROWN: OK.

SPENCE: You know, about this business of what these evils that have been done in the past by Lincoln and Roosevelt and all the rest. We have apologized for them. We have felt badly about taking the Japanese and dumping them into concentration camps when they were good American citizens and now we are doing that, in effect, with our other citizens in this country and immigrants that may be totally innocent citizens, totally innocent people.

BROWN: Let me give you the last word. Go ahead Mr. Krauthammer.

KRAUTHAMMER: It's a ridiculous analogy. We're not interning anybody. We're talking about putting Osama before a military court. If an American soldier shoots an innocent, he goes before a military court. Are you telling us that Osama has greater rights? He gets to go to a New York District Court instead? I think not.

SPENCE: I didn't say that we ought to take bin Laden into a New York Court and I'm not suggesting that.

KRAUTHAMMER: No, you're suggesting he should go before a military court.

SPENCE: But I am suggesting that we not have a closed - we ought not to have a closed tribunal behind closed doors in which any kind of thing can be done and nobody knows about it. It is a secret and the military, the very enemy that is trying bin Laden, is the one who will try him and finally convict him and maybe kill him behind doors, which we don't know what's going on. That is against the American tradition.

BROWN: Gerry, thank you. I'm going to stop you there. It's nice to talk to both of you again. We'll talk some more.

KRAUTHAMMER: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. Still to come tonight, controversial in office and still controversial even out of office, the former President when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: We're about to say two words that are almost guaranteed to send some of you to your remote control. Ready? Bill Clinton. Still there? We have from the beginning been fascinated by the former President and how he would handle being the former President in this time.

Ex-presidents in any time is an odd and difficulty role, especially so for Mr. Clinton for a lot of reasons, including some of those that had you reaching for the remote.

Just about anything he does draws criticism from some. Showing up at the armory with the families of the missing and going to Ground Zero, nothing is simple if you're an ex-president and it's really complicated if your name is Clinton.

Here's our Senior White House Correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He is #1 no more, a familiar face and a familiar voice said to be frustrated by his supporting role in a major global crisis.

WILLIAM CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: I was Commander-in-Chief for the people who go to work at the Pentagon every day.

KING: Advisors say Mr. Clinton has no major complaints about his successor and gives President Bush high marks for his handling of the War on Terrorism.

CLINTON: I am just a citizen, and as a citizen I support the efforts of President Bush, the National Security Team, and our allies in fighting the current terrorist threat.

KING: Top Bush advisors have no major complaints either, although there was some grumbling when the former President toured the World Trade Center site the day before the current President. But even then, Mr. Clinton had words of support.

CLINTON: They'll figure out who did it and then they'll figure out what to do about it, and the rest of us need to support them and that's what I intend to do.

KING: Former Presidents do get called on from time to time. President Clinton sought their help in promoting trade with China. President Bush invited them to the National Cathedral Service after the terrorist strikes. And before this trip to China in May, the Bush White House did ask Mr. Clinton to deliver a private message to Chinese President Jiang Zemin.

But the current President has an obvious favorite and sees little need to reach out to his democratic predecessor.

JAMES STEINBERG, FORMER DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: President Clinton feels that he's made clear that he's made clear that he's available to President Bush and his administration if they think he can be useful, but I don't think that he feels particularly compelled to play a specific role.

KING: In fact, the other Clinton, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, has more of the President's ear these days. So Mr. Clinton is trying to find a role for himself, working with former Senator Bob Dole to raise scholarship money for the children of the victims, and promoting redevelopment in his new home, New York. And more and more he is reemerging in the world of politics, including a Democratic National Committee fundraiser in Boston, Tuesday morning, slated to bring in a half million dollars. John King, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up, tomorrow's news tonight, what's on the front pages in Omaha, Nebraska and Columbus, Ohio. That's next on News Night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: I just want to reiterate, we're not showing the turkey and the President and anyone in the staff that violates that is history.

Time for morning papers, Columbus, Ohio and Omaha, Nebraska. Deanna Sands is the Managing Editor of the Omaha World Herald and she joins us from Omaha. Ben Marrison, the Managing Editor of the Columbus Dispatch. Welcome to you both.

East Coast first in this deal because we know you have a pretty good idea Ben what your front page looks like. What's your lead tomorrow?

BEN MARRISON, MANAGING EDITOR, "COLUMBUS DISPATCH": Tomorrow's front page lead story will "The Hunt for Osama bin Laden" and the roundup on the activities in Kunduz and Kandahar.

BROWN: And who's supplying the reporting for you on those?

MARRISON: The wire services. I think we're going to go with the Washington Post story tomorrow.

BROWN: And do you have a local story on your front page tomorrow?

MARRISON: Yes, we have a write about a young man, a fourteen- year-old who lives in one of the suburbs who raises turkeys to help pay for his ballet habit.

BROWN: That's a fabulous story.

MARRISON: You got to mix it up for them.

BROWN: That's a great one. Deanna, I don't think you could top that.

DEANNA SANDS, MANAGING EDITOR, "OMAHA WORLD HERALD": I don't think we can either, Aaron.

BROWN: I think you should steal that story.

SANDS: Well, you really -

BROWN: What's your front page look like?

SANDS: -- try not to do that too much. No, our lead story will be also the foreigners in control of Kunduz and we'll be dealing with the war and the prosecution of the war.

BROWN: And I can see, we're showing the front page, you've got some local things on the story - on the paper tomorrow too.

SANDS: Yes. We try to have a good mix of local every day. Our top local story would be, of course, our Senior Senator going for reelection again. He's hitting the campaign trail, and then we have a feature on a death row inmate who's using his medical records to bring forward, move for a new trial.

BROWN: I want to ask each of you this. Has your paper - let me start with Diana, has your paper changed since September 11th?

SANDS: I think it has. We went through a redesign, which is a different (inaudible) and ten days later we had to deal with 9/11. But I think the way the paper has changed is; we're reaching out more to localize this story, because we do have a large Afghan community here in Omaha because of the University of Nebraska at Omaha's Center for Afghan Studies. We also have a large military community, so it is a local story for us.

BROWN: And Ben, has the paper changed in Columbus do you think, or are you just doing the business you've always done and being noticed more?

MARRISON: You know, we've dedicated a lot more resources to international news as you may expect. We also are localizing as much as possible stories, national stories, sending staff to New York to do follow-ups. They're not going overseas at this time, but we're doing what most papers are doing in trying to bring the story home to our readers.

BROWN: And are you able to get enough pages to do it? Is there enough advertising out there, Ben, to support the work you're trying to do right now?

MARRISON: Well the advertising, as you know, is down but our publisher has committed to putting as many pages in the paper as necessary, and we're up four to eight to ten pages a day just dedicated to War on Terrorism and it's been widely applauded by our readers.

BROWN: Both of you, Ben and Deanna, thanks for joining us. Good newspapers both. We look forward to seeing you again.

MARRISON: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. SANDS: Have a good evening, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. Coming up still on News Night tonight, sellout crowds at the movies. No, not what you think. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A couple of signs of how drastically the lives of people in Kabul have changed since the Taliban fled, the television station there went back on the air for the first time in five years. Yes, television. Not only that, there were women in front of the camera. The three-hour programming block last night included interviews, news and music.

And this morning in Kabul, a huge turnout, look at that, for the first movie shown since the Taliban took power five years ago. No, it wasn't Harry Potter, though that is my favorite movie.

Moviegoers in Kabul were treated to the film "Ascension", a tale of a group of Afghan freedom fighters battling the Soviets in the 1980s, maybe not an Oscar, but not bad if you haven't gone to the movies in five years.

That's our report for tonight. You can contact us, oh do this, this is fun at News Night at cnn.com. We hope you will. We're back tomorrow at 10:00. Until then, I'm Aaron Brown in New York, for all of us at News Night, goodnight.

END

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