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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Another Woman has Died of Anthrax; Taliban Agree to Stop Fighting in Kunduz; Is the Air at Ground Zero Safe?

Aired November 21, 2001 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. Here we go.

How truthful ought we be here? Pretty truthful, I think. The best part of working the night shift is the executives are all gone. The worst thing is you have to do programs on the night before a holiday.

Still -- and we really do mean this -- if that's the worst thing, life is pretty good because doing the program, night before a holiday or not, is still beats most everything we can think of.

But we should tell you on this night before Thanksgiving there are a number of Thanksgiving related items we are not going to do tonight. We are not going to do a million travel updates. We are not going to give you tips on how to keep your turkey from drying out. The fact is it's going to dry out anyway. And no advice on surviving your in-laws over the holidays. You'll figure those things out without our help.

What we will do is what we always do, mindful that you are running into the kitchen from time to time to check on whatever it is your are supposed to check on the night before.

Here is the news: The Taliban has agreed to stop fighting in Kunduz, the last city they held in northern Afghanistan. Is this a surrender? We're not precisely sure.

Back in the United States, no break in the anthrax scare, only more mystery. Another homicide, a 94-year-old woman has died of inhaled anthrax. This one is completely baffling.

OK, we are going to do one travel update. We're just not going to do a lot of them. And it's not going to be a rundown of the usual logjams and headaches and all the rest. It will just be the new headaches and a fear a lot of people are having tonight just trying to get home to their families.

We'll also look at the special forces, the foot soldiers of America's new war. A strange phrase to use because they're the most sophisticated soldiers around.

And we'll go back to where this all began, ground zero, about to mark Thanksgiving -- another strange phrase, that. The death toll there came down today, by the way. And that is something to be thankful for.

Before all that, we, of course, whip around the world, heavy on Afghanistan tonight. So get ready for the three second satellite delay as we begin with Alessio Vinci on the videophone in Mazar-e- Sharif. The headline please.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron.

Well, Northern Alliance commanders and Taliban leaders have been meeting here all night. They have invited journalists as they are meeting (UNINTELLIGIBLE) progress and one of the Taliban leaders emerged saying that they will stop fighting in Kunduz. They will not put up a fight against the Northern Alliance to defend Kunduz. Whether this is an outright surrender or not, we will have to see how this pledge will translate onto the battlefield down in Kunduz about three or four hours drive east from where I am standing -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. We'll be back with you in a moment.

Satinder Bindra is a little bit closer to Kunduz. He joins us now. The headline please?

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, some sense of relief here that both sides have agreed, at least temporarily, to stop fighting in Kunduz. But there's also a great deal of confusion about what happens next. Northern Alliance commanders still unsure about what to do with the hardcore Taliban fighters and the al Qaeda fighters. Should they ask them to surrender? Should they give them safe passage or should they fight them to the finish -- Aaron.

BROWN: Back with you in a moment as well.

A different scene in the south in Kandahar, the last city the Taliban's holding onto. CNN's Nic Robertson, working that part of the story. Nic, the headline from you please tonight?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Taliban draw new frontlines in the south of Afghanistan. They say they control between four and five provinces around their spiritual heartland of Kandahar. They say they will defend this land. They also rule out being involved in U.N.-sponsored talks to define a new interim government for Afghanistan -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic.

And now we go to a small corner of Connecticut that lost a resident today to anthrax. CNN's Brian Cabell has been working on that story. Brian, a headline please from you?

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a genuine mystery here in Connecticut tonight. Ottilie Lundgren died today, 94 years old, despite the best efforts of her doctors. Investigators are now scouring her home, looking for answers. They're going door to door in her neighborhood looking for answers. But the bottom line tonight, Aaron, is that they don't have any answers.

BROWN: Brian, back with you and the anthrax story as well shortly.

But we begin with the war. Perhaps we are struggling a bit with semantics here, but no one in Kunduz that we have heard has said the word surrender. The Taliban forces and the foreign soldiers fighting with them have apparently agreed to stop shooting. What exactly that means now, does it mean they are going to lay down their weapons and raise a white flag and take their chances with the Northern Alliance? That part seems a little bit squishy to us here.

CNN's Alessio Vinci has been covering the negotiations. He joins us from Mazar-e-Sharif again on the videophone. Good morning to you.

VINCI: Good morning, Aaron.

Well, we have been invited to attend those negotiations, at least part of those negotiations earlier. Yesterday, as we arrived there at the fortress-like mansion that houses the top Northern Alliance commander here in Mazar-e-Sharif, Abdul Rashid Dostum.

Northern alliance officials were telling us that the Taliban leaders would be traveling to Mazar-e-Sharif to negotiate what they said was the surrender of Mazar-e-Sharif. That meeting went on only -- started only late at night, local time here, went on until the wee hours of the morning.

And as the meetings was in progress, journalists and ourselves were invited to enter the room as the two sides were discussing. And Abdul Rashid Dostum, the Northern Alliance commander, introduced his guest as the Taliban assistant defense minister, Mullah Fahzel (ph) and he introduced him by saying, "We should make sure that we tell journalists that there will not be a fight for Kunduz and that all the Taliban forces, including the Chechens, the Pakistanis and the Arab fighters -- known here as the foreign fighters -- are under the direct command of Mullah Fahzel (ph).

Then, Mullah Fahzel then sort of agreed. He agreed that those forces were under his direct command. And he also said we should give the message to the people that there will be no fighting in Kunduz. We interpreted -- our interpreters interpreted this as a pledge to surrender in Kunduz. We were also prepared to hear this kind of information throughout the day.

As you said, Aaron, whether this is an outright surrender or whether this is just a pledge to stop fighting and negotiate further how to lay down their weapons and return to their respective homes, we will have to see in the coming hours and days as the day begins here in this part of the world -- Aaron.

BROWN: As you know, the stickiest situation here is what will become of the foreign fighters, the Chechens, the Pakistanis, the Arabs. Any clue yet on how the two sides are going to deal with that?

VINCI: We have not heard anything regarding the foreign fighters after the meeting ended. But throughout the day, as Northern Alliance commanders arrived at the mansion here in Mazar-e-Sharif, they were very specific in telling us that if there were to be any kind of an amnesty, it would be only for the so-called Afghan Taliban.

But there was going to be no specific deal, no deal for the foreign fighters. They said that those who would lay down their weapons would be arrested and then tried here in this country. There will be no extradition, they said. And as far as those who would keep on fighting, they said they will be exterminated, in the words of one Northern Alliance commander.

We also understand that should the Taliban forces not agree to lay down their weapons in Kunduz, as many as 6,000 Northern Alliance fighters from Mazar-e-Sharif could be on their way to Kunduz to try to eliminate those foreign fighters from Kunduz -- Aaron.

BROWN: Alessio, nice job of reporting today on the videophone. Thank you for your work, appreciate it.

If it's not precisely clear now what is going to happen in Kunduz, it's abundantly clear what might have happened if the talks failed or, if in the end, they do fail. The city is surrounded by Northern Alliance troops. There are American bombers circling overhead. U.S. special forces are on the ground. A nasty scene in the making.

Satinder Bindra has been following this story a little closer to Kunduz, and he joins us again. Good morning, in your case.

BINDRA: Good morning, Aaron.

Certainly, a lot of Northern Alliance soldiers surrounding Konduz from four sides. There's some 30,000 of them. We have also been seeing U.S. air strikes. U.S. planes have been pummeling frontline Taliban positions, but over the past two days now, as these negotiations have been continuing, we have noticed U.S. air strikes have dropped to a minimum.

Now the Northern Alliance also has a concern. They want to continue negotiations because this is the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. And many people are concerned about civilian casualties. So, before launching an assault, before attacking Kunduz, they have to try to get some kind of a deal with the Taliban forces.

Now, this concern also within the Northern Alliance that the hardcore Taliban fighters, the Pakistanis, the Chechens and the Arabs, shouldn't just be extradited. They shouldn't be allow to go scott- free because they could come back and harm the Northern Alliance later as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: So the fighting is quiet. And I assume the atmosphere is extraordinarily tense as they wait for these negotiations in Mazar-e- Sharif to play out one way or another.

BINDRA: Yes. The atmosphere on the frontlines, where I was all of yesterday, was quite tense. People not knowing what to expect, people not knowing whether they will be asked to pull back or they will be asked to push forward. Even local commanders not knowing what to do. So they were walking around, inspecting their troops, trying to keep up their morale.

We also noticed some kind of humor from the troops. Many of them had flowers stuck in the barrels of their guns. Also, I should add, Aaron, there is some skepticism about all the talk of surrender on the frontline. The Northern Alliance, just 11 days ago, got burned. That's when Taliban commanders inside Kunduz said, "Look, you can come in to Kunduz now. We will surrender." But as Northern Alliance armor rolled into Kunduz, they were fired upon by rocket and artillery fire and these Northern Alliance tanks had to meet a hasty retreat -- Aaron.

BROWN: Satinder, thank you for your work today as well. Satinder Bindra keeping an eye on Kunduz as well.

Which now moves us south to Kandahar -- we've been calling it a Taliban stronghold. Tonight, it may turn out to be the Taliban's only stronghold. A spokesman saying, no surrender in Kandahar. This is the new frontline. And as for Osama bin Laden, he said, "We have no idea where he is", which got this testy reply from the State Department -- quote -- "It's a little late in the game for Bonnie to be saying she doesn't know where Clyde is."

Fortunately, we know where Nic Robertson is. He's near Kandahar and he joins us again. Nic, good morning.

ROBERTSON: Good morning, Aaron.

Well, of course, all this information long awaited the Taliban's route in the north by the Northern Alliance. We have really heard very little from the Taliban about that route in the recent weeks since it happened. Perhaps, one of the reasons for that is that the Taliban have been closed down essentially in Pakistan, where their ambassador was making daily announcements to the press. What the Taliban did to get around that was to invite quite a large number of journalists into their territory in Afghanistan to deliver this long awaited news conference.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): From amid a horde of journalists, a senior Taliban officials emerges to deliver the Taliban view of their losses to the Northern Alliance forces. The message: There's is a new frontline.

SYED TAYYAD AGHA, MULLAH OMAR SPOKESMAN: With our forces withdrawn from different provinces, and now they have reached to southern Afghanistan in controls about four or five provinces.

ROBERTSON: Those four to five provinces he says the Taliban controls are around the movement's spiritual capital, Kandahar. He denied rumors they would seed their heartland to tribal leaders as baseless propaganda.

AGHA: The nation, living in Kandahar, in surrounding provinces, they are with us and they are ready for any kind of sacrifices to secure the Islamic emirate and secure it's nation.

ROBERTSON: The Syed Tayyad Agha, the first secretary to Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar, was chosen to deliver these messages, an indication the communication comes directly from the top.

On the question of Osama bin Laden:

AGHA: We have no idea where he is.

ROBERTSON: And on Mullah Omar's location, Tayyad Agha says that's now a secret to ensure his security.

Dozens of reporters invited by the Taliban to briefly visit Afghanistan for the news conference, listened for almost an hour as the Taliban leader's youthful confidant laid out the Taliban position on the war so far.

Late in the news briefing, he rejected a U.N. proposal for an international conference to determine an interim government for Afghanistan.

AGHA: We will never take part in Loya Jirga or any other effects outside of Afghanistan.

ROBERTSON: International intervention, he said, would bring instability, adding the Northern Alliance could not deliver security to the people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): And the bottom line message here from the Taliban: no surrender of Kandahar, their spiritual capital and the surrounding provinces, no surrender of their spiritual leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar. And absolutely no indication of any surrender by Osama bin Laden -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, we will see how it plays out over the next several days. Nic Robertson, working the Kandahar part of the story, thank you.

Now onto anthrax, and this one is very hard to figure. Somewhere, obviously, there is an explanation. It's just now hard to imagine how a 94-year-old woman in Connecticut became the latest victim of anthrax. Ottilie Lundgren wasn't a big politician or a media name. She didn't work at the post office. In fact, she didn't work anywhere. She didn't even drive. She rarely left her home. According to her niece, she went to church and to the hairdresser. But somehow, she got anthrax in her lungs and the anthrax killed her -- the fifth anthrax death and the second without any rhyme or reason.

Back now to Brian Cabell in Derby, Connecticut. Brian, good evening.

CABELL: Good evening, Aaron.

About a dozen CDC investigators are busy at work tonight, along with the FBI, along with postal inspectors and police, all with the same question: How did Ottilie Lundgren contract anthrax?

They have been focusing primarily on her mail so far. But so far, nothing suspicious has shown up. They are also trying to track her most recent movements. But, again, very few helpful leads.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): There weren't many places Ottilie Lundgren could have been exposed to anthrax. The 94-year-old widow -- her husband was a city court judge and prominent attorney -- lived alone in a quiet, middle-class neighborhood in southwestern Connecticut, two hours from Manhattan. Increasingly, she had been homebound. Her niece, who lived nearby, helped her on errands and deliveries. But, Ms. Lundgren, her friends say, had been very active, even swimming, until recently.

THAIA WILDE, FRIEND: We would always, you know, speak to her and we would say, "Gee, it's wonderful you are still driving at this age." And she was quite proud of that.

CABELL: But a few months back, friends say, she stopped driving the sometimes busy roads in Oxford, not even to pick up prescriptions at the pharmacy just a few miles away.

TONY BARTOLOMEO, PHARMICIST: She used to drive down. But I think her family, because of her age, they took the car away, took her license away. They were just scared of her being on the road.

CABELL: Getting to church, just a mile from home, became a chore in recent months. So her pastor brought communion to her as recently a few weeks ago.

PASTOR RICHARD MIESEL: She was a fun visit, you know, lots of good stories and remembrances and a wonderful person, very lively.

CABELL: She had her hair done every week at this salon for the last several years. Her last visit was less than two weeks ago.

Postal inspectors and other investigators are now scouring her neighborhood, talking to residents and friends, searching for clues as to how she may have contracted anthrax. Accidental contamination of her mail by another letter is considered a possiblity.

Her street has been blocked off to give her neighbors some privacy and to allow an unimpeded investigation. But still, there's hardly even a hint of a lead as to how an elderly woman in this rural community with no connection to the media, politics, a postal facility or even a large group of people became the latest victim of a deadly disease.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): This community, as you might expect, has been shaken up by these latest revelations of this anthrax case. This hospital behind me has fielded a number of calls over the last couple of days, people worried they might get anthrax. We talked to a pharmacist earlier today, said he's received a number of calls from people wondering if they should start taking some sort of antibiotics. His advice to them is no, don't worry about it right now. Don't panic. Officials are working on the case. But the bottom line again, Aaron, is right now, officials simply don't know how this woman got anthrax.

BROWN: Brian, thank you -- Brian Cabell. It is a mind boggling mystery, Thank you very much.

Coming up, we will look at the warriors we don't often get a chance to see until it's time to thank them for a job well done. The special forces -- next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The president promised a war like none we'd ever seen before in the country. And today, he met some of the men and women who are making the war happen.

The president spent today at Fort Campbell in Kentucky, home to the Army's elite 101st Airborne, the Screaming Eagles. Lunch today: Thanksgiving turkey with a little red meat thrown in for dessert.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will prevail with a combination of good information, decisive action and great military skill. The enemy hopes they can hide, until we tire. But we will prove them wrong. We will never tire, and we will hunt them down!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Defense secretary was at Fort Bragg today, headquartes of the Special Operations command. Green Berets based there, so is the Deta Force. The secretary watcyhed a combat demonstration, gave a pep talk, and promised Special Forces will play a major part in the end game in Afghanistan.

Much of that involves flushing out the remaining Taliban fighters, and chasing them down, Osama bin Laden of course. And about bin Laden, Secretary Rumsfeld had this to say: "When I get up in the morning, I picture him in a cave."

And as for dead or alive, he told an interviewer, I would just as soon see him dead. If that comes to pass and of the Special Forces make it happen, there is a very good chance you won't see it here or any where else until long after the fact. That is the reality of war since Vietnam, and it is especially true now. So the best we can do is offer a second hand portrait of a Special Forces warrior.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): In a war with few picures, these are memorable. American soldiers in action, parachuting at night in Afghanistan, sweeping throught an as Qaeda office, riding on horseback in the Afghan desert, a snapshot or two of Special Forces Operations.

GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: That is only a sampling of the capabilities and probably the employment of special operating forces in this war in Afghanistan.

BROWN: Retired Army General David Grange served in the Special Forces and the Green Berets, and is now a military analyst for CNN.

GRANGE: They are all over Afghanistan, though probably more so in the north, northwest, northeast, those areas, until the Taliban started to crumble, and then moved south when the Pashtun tribes were more anti-Talibnan as a lot of them changed sides, then we put more Special Operating forces down there.

BROWN: One Special Forces team began operating in Afghanistan, one of their principle jobs was to line up targets for Air Force bombers using pinpoint lasers and giving precise radio guidance from the ground.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There is no question but that the better targeting information we have the better the effect is on the ground. And the air campaign has been going along quite well.

BROWN: Take this for instance: Two gasoline tanker trucks destroyed, but how did U.S. warplanes find them? these men might have an answer. They say they were part of a convoy of gasoline trucks from Iran to Afghanistan, but they say they were stopped by Special Forces soldiers who spoke perfect Farsi, the language of Iran. The drivers were handcuffed and taken away in these light armored vehicles, last seen in combat during the Gulf War and then American jets were called in to destroy the tankers.

GRANGE: The capability is definitely there to insert Special Operating forces by air, by parachute or helicopter or by desert vehicles and can conduct interdiction missions, which this sounds like an interdiction mission.

BROWN: The equipment being used by the Special Forces in Afghanistan, according to military experts, is the most sophisticated ever employed in a war. But in the end, it is not the equipment, it's the men and yes, the women, who make the difference.

GRANGE: The character, the grit, the cut of cloth that makes up a special operating soldier or airman, or marine or Navy Seal in the armed forces of the United States, that's the real combat power, that type of individual.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And they are on the ground in Afghanistan tonight.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, what is the air down at ground zero? Is it dangerous? A couple of questions for scientists and a congressman as NEWSNIGHT continues on the night before Thanksgiving.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Ground zero the night before Thanksgiving. One of the troubling things to come out of the work at ground zero, a mysterious thing. Workers, people close by complaining about a strange cough. Some of us have had a really long cold. It may the not seem like a mystery when you see all smoke and dust that covered Lower Manhattan, but the science has yet to give us an easy answer, at least as far as we can tell.

We are joined tonight by Dr. George Thurston, an environmental medicine specialist at NYU School of Medicine, and Representative Gerald Nadler, Democrat of New York. This is his district and the congressman has lots of thoughts on how things ought to be handled down there. It is nice to see both of you.

Do we know if that air is safe down there? Do we know?

DR. GEORGE THURSTON, ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE SPECIALIST: I think that safe is a relative term and there is always a risk when -- of air pollution, especially for certain susceptible populations, even at normal air pollution levels that we experience in big cities like New York city.

BROWN: Is that what we are talking about, is that it is no different or no worse than normal air pollution?

THURSTON: It is different. I think you have to look at where you are talking about, whether you are aground at ground zero or in the general population, blocks away. There is a big difference, and also when you are talking about. In September the levels were quite high in the surrounding community, but in our monitoring that we have conducted at NYU Downtown Hospital, conducted by medical school there, that we found that the levels there now are fairly similar to what we are seeing in other parts of the city. We are also monitoring at the NYU Medical Center in midtown.

So the levels of small particles are similar. Now there is the addition of the dust in the air and that actually is part of the answer to what you are talking about, this cough and irritation. Those levels are higher. That is not something that is usually monitored, but because those large particles are caught by you upper airways, and your nose and throat and they don't get deep in your lung, like the fine particles do. And that is causing some of this irritation. We have been analyzing that and found that it is very caustic, and so it is causing a lot of these problems.

BROWN: Let me turn to the congressman for a second. One of the tabloids in particular has had a field day with the air. One of the difficult things about this is trying to sort out what is and what isn't. It is not just the air, it is a lot of issues around down there. This is your district. What you are telling your constituents about the area?

REPRESENTATIVE JERROLD NADLER, (D) NEW YORK: What we are saying is a number of things. First of all, I chair a group called the ground zero elected officials task forc, which we formed the day after the -- the disaster, of all the elected officials, the community board and all the staffs to centraliz information, disseminate information and make sure the city and the state and the federal government are responding to the specific needs of residents down there. And we got the EPA in the first place to start monitoring the air and so forth.

We also got some volunteer professional people to do our own survey in October. And they found that all different -- with respect to all different kinds of particulate matter the air -- the air was OK, but that with respect to asbestos, at that point in mid-October, in a few buildings that they surveyed, the level was elevated.

We also find that it varies greatly. I mean, in one of the -- and we are trying to -- to get this taken care of in the following way. One of the reasons it varies greatly is that they remove debris every day and trucks, which they take to Pier 25 to be removed on barges and no one is monitoring to make sure that the contractor properly hoses down the debris in the trucks and puts a tarp over it to make that whatever kinds of contaminants don't...

BROWN: Who (UNINTELLIGIBLE), by the way?

NADLER: Well, the city hired the contractors, the city should be monitoring. The second thing is, we spoke as of today the City Department of Buildings. We had some complaints. It's not the first time that some building owners are telling the superintendents to sweep off the roof from all the dust.

BROWN: Right.

NADLER: Well, all that does is get whatever's on that roof into the air. And what ought to happening -- and the Buildings Department said, well, we have no jurisdiction over this. About an hour later they called back and said, well, maybe we ought to rethink that.

And what we are -- we are asking is that there be one agency of the city government designated to be in overall charge of all environmental considerations so that people -- whether elected officials or individuals residents -- don't get bounced from the Department of Buildings to DEP to the Department of Health and get no sufficient answer anywhere.

BROWN: Congressman, you and the mayor have always been just like that. So I'm sure that he will just agree to anything you say here, right? Wrong?

NADLER: Well, I must say that until about two weeks ago, the -- all city agencies and FEMA were cooperating very, very well with the task force.

And we did a great service to them because what we did was get a lot of people out in the neighborhoods, getting the -- getting the intelligence of what was going on.

Nearly 25,000 people live in Manhattan below Chamber Street, and funneling all that -- all of that into two or three requests and saying to the feds and the federal government and the city government, these -- these are the priorities you ought to -- ought to deal with right now, and -- and saving them from having to field a thousand phone calls.

BROWN: Doctor, I heard -- I heard someone say the other day that this is one of the most dangerous work sites in the country right now. Not just the air -- the air is part of it -- but just all that is going on. Are those people working -- are they safe down there every day?

THURSTON: Well, I actually haven't been monitoring at the site and working and the site. I have been working and monitoring the community at, you know, blocks away.

But from what I understand, you know, it is a risky place. The kind of work they are doing is inherently risky. So there is always some risk associated with this work, and -- but if they are wearing their respirators, for example, and following good industrial hygiene practices...

BROWN: By respirators you don't mean these like hospital masks.

THURSTON: No, no, certainly not that. No. They are real respirators that have to properly fitted to the face and used properly in order to work, and they will protect the workers from the various pollutants at the site if -- if used reliably and properly.

BROWN: If used.

THURSTON: Yes.

BROWN: Thank you both. Have a good holiday.

NADLER: Thank you.

THURSTON: Thank you.

BROWN: It's nice to see you, always. We will continue in a moment. Lean time for some charities after the tragedy of 9/11. We will talk more about that in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Maybe you have heard the phrase "compassion fatigue." It's always a concern for charitable groups. Basically, people get a bit overwhelmed when they are asked for donations again and again and they get to a point where they feel they just can't give anything to anyone anymore.

Now so far, it doesn't seem like the public has compassion fatigue for the victims of September 11. But while people are focusing that cause, other causes are getting squeezed. Tonight the view at the food bank from CNN's Bruce Morton.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If you want to know how the economy's doing, visit a food bank. This is a big one, the Capitol Area Food Bank, which distributes about 20 million pounds of food a year to 740 member organizations: senior centers, shelters, just about any nonprofit organization that tries to feed the hungry. Have they noticed a trend? They have.

MONICA TESTA, CAPITAL AREA FOOD BANK: Demand is up about 20 percent, I would say.

MORTON: People want food. This food banks gets food donations from manufacturers, supermarket chains and so on, and financial donations. But overall donations are down, Testa says, ten to fifteen percent.

TESTA: I think it's a combination. The economy was already slowing over the summer and the after September 11 we saw donations decrease. People's attention was focused elsewhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some chili, spaghetti balls...

MORTON: Same story at Bread for the City, which gives food to some 3500 families. The lines are longer now.

GEORGE JONES, BREAD FOR THE CITY: We have seen a steady increase in the number of people turning to us for food. And we have seen an unfortunate decline in the kind of charitable gifts that we have gotten over this last two to three months. And so it has been for us a sort of a -- a barometer of sorts of what is going on out there in the real world.

MORTON: For Jones, a bright moment this day, some bread donated by a church in a Virginia suburb. And with the bread, another gift.

JONES: God bless you. I need this. I need this. I need a hug here.

MORTON: But the shortages are real, and this is a time of year when charitable giving usually goes up, not down.

TESTA: And now we are really struggling because of the ripple effect that an estimated 30,000 people have lost their jobs in this area alone, they are now coming to our agencies, and our agencies are coming to us saying we need more. So we are struggling.

MORTON: Washington's main industry is politics, of course, but it's a tourist town, too. And lot of the new unemployed worked in that industry.

TESTA: Taxi drivers, waitresses, people to worked at National Airport, and these are people that might already have been close to the margin, and losing, especially at this time of year, they're really -- they're struggling. And there aren't a lot of new jobs out there.

MORTON: Except at the food banks, of course. They're busy. Donations and volunteers are welcome. Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: A quick but important update here. Just a moment ago we got a piece of hard evidence in the case of the Connecticut woman who died of anthrax.

Early testing -- early testing -- shows it is the anthrax indistinguishable -- that's the word officials are using -- from the spores in the earlier anthrax cases. We don't know, of course, how the spores got where they got, where they came from, how they infected Ottilie Lundgren.

But they do now appear to be -- at least in the early testing -- the same strain as the ones that got to Washington and here in New York and elsewhere.

Next on newsnight, the FBI asks one city for help with part of its search for terrorists. But the city says no, sort of. The reasoning from the police chief in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've heard a lot from civil libertarians over the last several weeks uncomfortable with the White House, uncomfortable that the Justice Department, in their view, is trampling on due process in this search for terrorists or anyone who may have helped them, wanting to question 5,000 men who may just fit a profile -- basically, Middle Eastern men -- and now there's a dispute involving a different combatant, if you will: a fight that might actually slow the investigation. We'll see.

Police in Portland, Oregon are not cooperating with the Justice Department -- at least not totally -- in trying to interview Middle Eastern men.

Portland's leadership says the city will help but only question those who are actually suspected of criminal activity. Federal investigators say they are going to go forward with this. It may take them a little longer without the local help.

In any case, that's the story as it's played out for part of the day. We'll try and fill in some of the blanks now. We are joined now from Portland by the acting police chief, Andrew Kirkland, and by the deputy city attorney, David Lesch. Good evening to both of you.

ANDREW KIRKLAND, POLICE CHIEF: Good evening.

DAVID LESCH, DEPUTY CITY ATTORNEY: Good evening.

BROWN: Chief, did you actually tell the federal government you are not going to do what they are asking?

KIRKLAND: I couldn't hear you.

BROWN: I'm sorry. Did you actually tell the federal government you are not going to do what they asked you to do, which is to find these guys and ask them whatever questions thhat the government wants asked? KIRKLAND: We -- we actually informed them of the state law and the advice of our city attorneys and that we were put in a position where it would put us in conflict with a state law, which is more restrictive in this area than the federal law.

And so they -- they were aware of our dilemma that we are in. But as we did today, we offered -- we offered opportunity to at least modify where there was a problem, so maybe we could help them at some point.

BROWN: So there is some negotiating going on.

KIRKLAND: We would hope that we could get to that point where we could -- where we could help, as long as it didn't violate the state law.

BROWN: All right. Let's turn to Mr. Lesch here, who's the -- who's the deputy city attorney and is familiar with the -- the law and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) opinions in all of this. What is the law here, in short, that you are concerned with?

DAVID LESCH, CITY ATTORNEY: Well, there's two statutes, Mr. Brown, both found in Chapter 181 of the Oregon Revised Statutes.

One has to do with a -- somewhat of a prohibition on local law enforcement officers investigating immigration offences if that's the only criminal offense that a suspect is suspected of.

The other is a statute that basically prohibits or restricts law enforcement officers from inquiring into the social, political or religious views and the associations of individuals unless that individual is reasonably suspected of criminal activity.

BROWN: Mr. Lesch, where is the middle ground here? What is it that the city, as you sit here tonight, is willing to do?

LESCH: Well, I think there's a lot of middle ground. I think -- much has been made of the Portland police bureau somehow is not cooperating with the federal government or is not passionate about apprehending -- apprehending terrorists or preventing terrorism.

In fact, the Portland police bureau and all local law enforcement agencies in the state of Oregon have the authority to question folks and ask them about criminal activity, ask them about the September 11th attacks, ask them about future terrorist attacks, about if they know any terrorism, if they ahve financing of terrorism.

And it's my understanding that the Portland police bureau has said they are willing to do that. We just want to be careful that those officers don't violate state law.

BROWN: Chief, is this a -- is this as simple as a racial profiling chase in your mind?

KIRKLAND: No, and it's actually two separate issues. When -- when we are talking about this issue of us -- and I want to separate it out as well, the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's office -- with us a big part of the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force looking into -- into the issues of terrorism, we will continue to do that.

But racial profiling is a separate issue, and we as an organization as well -- as well as other organizations throughout the country has made -- have made stance against racial profiling. And it puts -- it puts you in a dilemma if you have a very diverse community and you made a stand against racial profiling of how you are going to do this.

But we have said -- and we will continue to say -- that we will -- will work with the FBI as well as the U.S. Attorney if we can come to some common ground with the U.S. Attorney. We will continue our efforts that we are doing with the FBI, though.

BROWN: Now tell me how Portlanders are reacting to this? Have you gotten a mixed reaction? Are people supportive of the -- of the position the department is taking?

KIRKLAND: It's -- at least what I have been getting it's been about 50/50 from the city. 50/50. But I have been taking e-mails from people all over the world on this issue and I have been responding personally.

Even if people may disagree with us or even question whether or not we should abide by state law, you know, I have been responding to those personally and letting them know that it's -- it's not a personal decision. It's not an arbitrary. It's one where we swore to uphold the -- the U.S. Constitution as well as the state of Oregon constitution. And so if we can come to some middle ground about -- puts us in a position where we're not violating the state law here, we can help the U.S. Attorney General's office.

BROWN: All right. Chief, it's nice to talk to you.

KIRKLAND: Thank you.

BROWN: Mr. Lesch, nice to talk to you as well. It is a -- I'm going to use the word wonderfully complicated question. And you guys did a terrific job in explaining your side of it tonight. Thank you.

KIRKLAND: Thanks.

LESCH: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

KIRKLAND: Have a good holiday.

BROWN: You guys, too. Thank you. Coming up, oh, no. It's the travel story. Didn't I say we weren't going to do a travel story? Well, we are, sort of. One of our reporters stands in line, gets onboard, takes the plane. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK, we had to this. Here's the Thanksgiving travel piece. But it's not really the Thanksgiving travel piece. There's no correspondent outside the airport talking about the long lines, not from us.

Our correspondent actually spent the day in the long lines and on the airplane and in the air. He went there and back, Los Angeles to Oakland. We didn't make him do it, exactly. Charles Feldman volunteered. Go figure.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This line is to check in and get your ticket. It's about 75 to 80 people deep.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next in line, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Have a great time.

FELDMAN: All right. So we're -- we have now made it to the front of this long line. Elapsed time about maybe a half hour.

Oh, here we go. And let's see how painless this is.

Hello. We are on the flight this morning to Oakland.

So far, as you can see, it's been a pretty painless process. But now, the ordeal is yet to come because the big security line is outside and when last we checked it was about 300 people deep.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you've got a 7:50 flight or earlier, please follow me.

FELDMAN: This line is very impressive in length, stretching from terminal one, which is way back there, all the way down to terminal two.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wave to the cameraman. Ellen here is hungry. You're bald and you're glad it's not raining.

FELDMAN: What's this experience been like so far, with the lines and security and all that other stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a big hassle. I know it's necessary but of course I hate it like everyone else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's actually moving pretty quickly, so it's not too bad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Eight o'clock. Eight o'clock or earlier. Eight o'clock or earlier.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the way over this way. Thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next please. Next please?

FELDMAN: I'm going to try calling back. I'm not hearing you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, this is ridiculous. I mean, the line started all the way out here on the sidewalk.

FELDMAN: Now what we are going to do is we're going to see just how difficult or how easy it to reverse the process, as we head back to lax.

Here, the lines are a lot shorter. It's moving a lot quicker.

Well, after a long day of going through security and all kinds of different check-in lines, we have finally made it back to Los Angeles International Airport.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

FELDMAN: OK. We have the idea now about lots of long lines, lots of security, so I'm not going to talk about that anymore. But let me, Aaron, give you my impressions of the day, 15 hours into the process. You know, as a kid growing up in New York, I found going to the airport and flying an exhilarating and freeing experience.

Now, contrast that, if you will, with the experience I went through today on Thanksgiving 2001. Long lines. I promised I wasn't going to talk about lines, but there you have it. Lines, security.

There's something very sad about all this. Yes, it's great that people have the travel spirit and that people are not going let the event of September 11 stop them from joining their loved ones, but there still is something fundamentally sad about coming to an airport and having to be subject to a patdown by security agents, your bags opened up, your personal belongings being sought through. That's my overall impression of the day, Aaron.

BROWN: Charles, thank you for efforts today. And unfortunately we are not -- we are not covering your expenses because you didn't fill out all the proper forms.

Back to ground zero when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A quick final item or two here. We've done dozens of victim profiles since September 11. We like these pieces very much. They give meaning to the tragedy of September. We put a lot of them together for tomorrow's program and we hope will you join us for that.

Back now to where this all started Thanksgiving -- the day before, back to ground zero. Workers there will be working tomorrow. In some ways perhaps the most meaningful Thanksgiving that they have ever had.

And one other thing going on the city tonight: perhaps it will make you smile. We hope so. It's going on in the -- in upper Manhattan on the West Side. They're getting ready for the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, which is tomorrow. Filling up the balloons. 75th annual. Lots of security, lots of red, white and blue, to be sure. But hopefully good weather and a good time. We hope you will have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Again, we will see you tomorrow night at 10:00. Until then, good night for all of us at newsnight.

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