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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Attorney General Offers Possible Citizenship to Foreign Nationals Who Aid Law Enforcement Officials; Northern Alliance Capture Al Qaeda Training Leader; Senator Biden Discusses Military Tribunals, Afghanistan and Iraq
Aired November 29, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. Having spent much of the last two days answering e-mails on the subject, I woke today believing we'd done just about enough on civil liberties and national security for a while. Alas, the president and the attorney general didn't cooperate today. Both talked about the subject.
On the attorney general's side there was a carrot offered, after 11 weeks of a stick approach: tell the government what you know about terrorists or plots or the like, and if it proves helpful, the government might help you get citizenship. Like most things in the post 9-11 world, even the carrot approach has some controversy attached. So, like it or not, we're back in the civil liberties debate yet again tonight.
And the president stood shoulder to shoulder with his attorney general, emphasizing the general part of that title, to say, no apologies at all. "This is war," he said, a new war, and John Ashcroft needs powerful new weapons.
In Afghanistan, a big get today, if it turns out to be true. Reports say the Northern Alliance has captured al Qaeda training leader, Ahmed Omar Abdel Rahman. And if that name sounds familiar, it should. He's the son of Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, convicted in 1993 of the World Trade Center bombing. This allegedly would be the terrorist version of like father, like son.
We'll also update the war effort overseas. We'll talk with the chairman of the Senate foreign relations committee, Joseph Biden. And one other thing to note: no mystery guest tonight. None, zero. Last night the producers surprised us with the Macy's Santa Claus. It was actually kind of an interesting time and the producers were, oh, so proud. And we can tell you from the e-mails today, Santa proved to be an unusually divisive guest. Tonight the producers give us all a reprieve, but they've warned me: expect more mysteries in the weeks ahead. Wonderful.
We get on with it now. The whip around the world, beginning in Washington and CNN's Eileen O'Connor. Eileen, the headline, please.
EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the attorney general calls it an incentive program. He says he's going to give visas in exchange for what he considers "reliable information." The question is to many, exactly what will he consider reliable -- Aaron.
BROWN: Eileen, to the White House next, our senior White House correspondent, John King. John, the headline from you tonight.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We're at war, Aaron. With those words, the president today brushed aside his critics here at home and allies overseas who are worried about those sweeping new law enforcement powers the administration wants for the war on terrorism, including those very secretive military tribunals. The president said today he believes protecting the American people is -- quote -- "the calling of our time." And he said he would take almost any measure to do so, saying the enemy was, in his words, "incredibly ruthless."
BROWN: John, thank you.
On the subject of war, there is the shooting war. CNN's Nic Robertson is in the border town of Chaman. Morning, for him. Nic, the headline from you, please.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, our sources in Kandahar say the pressure being turned up on the Taliban, intensive bombing. The Taliban, for their part, hang a man in the central square of the town, accused him of spying for the United States. And here at the border, indications, maybe of toughening Taliban resolve. New commanders turn up and scratch talks of handing over, surrendering the border town of Spin Boldak -- Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, back with you. Back with all of you shortly.
We begin tonight at the Justice Department where, as we said, the carrot replaced the stick. For weeks the administration has been wielding a very big stick in the anti-terrorism war. Tough new laws, tough executive orders, lots of questions about fairness, about Constitutional rights. Today the attorney general offered up the "turn in the terrorist" incentive plan, if you will.
We go back to CNN's Eileen O'Connor, who's been working the story from Washington -- Eileen.
O'CONNOR: Well, invitations have been sent to what they are calling voluntary interviews. But while many here in the United States of Middle Eastern descent say they want to RSVP, they are concerned how they will be treated. Will they be believed if they say they know nothing?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): He does not want to be identified. And despite having permanent resident status, this man, of Middle Eastern origin, received an invitation like this, from the U.S. Attorney's Office in Michigan, for an interview about the events of September 11th, which reads in part... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "While this interview is voluntary, it is crucial that the investigation be broad-based and thorough. And the interview is important to achieve that goal."
That doesn't make a lot of sense. It don't assure me that it's voluntary.
O'CONNOR: An engineer with wife and children, he's been here more than 10 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife is horrified, and she has been shaking all last night.
O'CONNOR: He says he wants to help in the fight against terrorism. But he says the potential for trouble is worrisome.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can never tell saying a word that is going to be misinterpreted.
O'CONNOR: It's this kind of reluctance that may be the reason the attorney general is trying the carrot approach the get information, offering people here on temporary visas, who might have overstayed, and those who are abroad wanting to come to the United States, the chance for visas, or even better, parole -- or a deferral of prosecution for violators.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: If the information you provide is reliable and useful, we will help you obtain a visa to reside in the United States, and ultimately become an United States citizen.
O'CONNOR: But some immigration lawyers say the program is a promise without any guarantees.
DAVID ROTHWELL, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: What if what he has to say is not enough, from the government's point of view? And in saying, he has disclosed who he is and what his immigration problem is. I don't see anything that would suggest that the government is going to go leniently on people like that.
O'CONNOR: The attorney general denies it is designed as a trap.
ASHCROFT: The instruction is to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and to the embassy offices, that they are not to inquire as to the immigration status of the person bringing the information. They are only to receive the information.
O'CONNOR: Still, the move comes on the heels of a memo sent to investigators conducting voluntary interviews, with mostly young men, to be on guard for potential immigration violations.
The memo says: "Affirmative requests either by the FBI or the United States Attorney's Office to detain immigration violators under no bond should be honored."
(END VIDEOTAPE) Some immigration lawyers say another potential problem are false leads by people desperate for visas, that could waste the time of investigators and, worse, ensnare the innocent -- Aaron.
BROWN: Eileen, do you have any idea how many of these 5,000 people that we talked about at the beginning of the spot have actually been talked to at this point?
O'CONNOR: We do not. We know that some letters of invitation were sent out in Michigan. And of course, U.S. attorneys around the country have the option of basically sending out these letters to people who they believe are qualified.
You know, what they're doing is they're looking for men, mostly younger men, between about 20 and 35, of Middle Eastern origin who are here on temporary visas. But it looks like they're also casting a wider net than that, because we did see this person in our story tonight, we met him in Detroit. And he actually is a person who's been on permanent resident visa. So it is a wide ranging net, and there are about 5,000, according to the Justice Department, that will be asked to come in. Don't know yet how many are responding.
BROWN: Eileen, thanks. Eileen O'Connor in Washington tonight.
With polls showing the public firmly on his side in this debate over civil liberties and national security, the president made no apology today about the government's greatly expanded powers in the war against terrorism. From the detentions to the possibility of secret military trials, the president told a group of federal prosecutors, this is war, these are the right weapons.
Back to the White House and CNN's John King, on the lawn. John, good evening to you.
KING: Aaron, good evening to you.
Civil libertarians in this country have protested. There was a European Union delegation in Washington tonight to meet with administration officials tomorrow, to say that, yes, European nations have rounded up dozens of suspected al Qaeda members. But they are concerned about the prospect that they would be extradited to the United States and put on trial in the secretive military tribunals.
The administration will meet with them. Its response will be polite. But a senior official said tonight it will translate into this: "too bad. We're at war. Extraordinary times justify extraordinary measures."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): The president told federal prosecutors they are the front line of the domestic war on terrorism. And he offered a spirited defense of the controversial new powers he is using in the fight.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're an open society. But we're at war.
KING: Most controversial is the option of trying some suspected terrorists in military tribunals instead of the federal court system. In such tribunals, evidence can be presented in secret proceedings. A two-thirds majority is enough to convict, and to impose the death penalty.
BUSH: Non-U.S. citizens who plan and/or commit mass murder are more than criminal suspects. They are unlawful combatants who seek to destroy our country and our way of life.
KING: Other new police powers are in use as well. More than 500 people are being detained on immigration violations. The Justice Department wants to interview 5,000 men of Middle Eastern roots, who entered the United States in the last two years. The government has new powers to wiretap and monitor e-mail communications, and says it might even listen in when attorneys talk to those being held behind bars.
Egypt's foreign minister raised questions about how long Arabs would be detained without being charged with a crime.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I hope that in the very near future, as these investigations continue and as questions are answered and clarified, we'll be able to get this list of detainees down.
KING: The new measures have broad public support. Only 10 percent of Americans in the latest CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll say the administration has gone too far in its quest for new powers. Sixty percent say the administration's new approach is about right, and 26 percent say it hasn't gone far enough in restricting civil liberties in order to fight terrorism.
Mr. Bush himself will decide whether to use military tribunals, and senior official say there are no pending recommendations, and none expected for weeks, if not months.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
But it is clear that this is a president who puts a premium on secrecy. We are told by sources that in recent private conversations, Mr. Bush has complained repeatedly that Osama bin Laden and other terrorists have learned too much about investigative tactics and, he says, U.S. intelligence gathering methods, from all the evidence turned over the suspects in prior terror trials, all the evidence discussed in open court.
Mr. Bush had told aides and members of Congress in recent days he's not going to let that happen again -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, a little more from you. We'll deal with this with Senator Biden later, too, on how the administration plans to approach these concerns from Spain or the European Union, generally. Because if they have the suspects and if they refuse to turn them over, there is a problem. KING: There could and problem. Emphasis No. 1 from U.S. officials is that they don't want most of these suspected tried in the United States. Most of them, they just want held in jail for a very long period of time. They want to interrogate many of them.
And if there are offenses that can be tried in court, say, in Spain, say, in Great Britain, say, in Germany, where suspects are being held, the administration is comfortable with most of the cases being prosecuted overseas. It is only in cases where they find prime offenders, if you will, key accomplices to the September 11th attacks, or key accomplices in planned attacks on the United States that have been thwarted.
In those cases, the U.S. says it might ask that some of those suspects be extradited. And it might, indeed, tell the allies, because it will have to be up front about this, that it plans to put them on trial in a military tribunal. But U.S. officials say they believe in the end that number will be very small. And they say they have no idea right now, because that is not their focus.
The focus right now is on rounding everybody up so they can prevent future attacks. That is priority one.
BROWN: John, thanks. Senior White House correspondent John King, on the lawn of the White House this evening.
No progress to report tonight on the anthrax letters. There is a key development, however, in a lot of the hoaxes. The attorney general today named this man, Clayton Lee Waagner, as a chief suspect. He says they got a tip that Waagner was bragging about sending out hundreds of bogus anthrax letters to abortion clinics. Waagner calls himself an anti-abortion warrior. He's already on the FBI's 10 most wanted list for a variety of charges. He's been at large ever since he broke out of an Illinois jail last February. The FBI calls Clayton Lee Waagner extremely dangerous.
To the war now, another casualty to report. This one not the result of enemy action. But a soldier did die, an American, of a gunshot wound today at a base in Uzbekistan. Pentagon sources tell CNN that a weapon went off. They're not saying whose weapon it was, or what precisely the circumstances were. The soldier's name is still being withheld until family members can be notified.
Just across the border, some quick pictures now of special forces in action. Here is one. Here the special forces are using a remote control device to blow up some unexploded ammunition from an airport around Mazar-e Sharif. Here's another shot of the airport, the third one controlled now by American forces, by the way.
The troops are here in part to make it safe for flights carrying humanitarian aid to get into northern Afghanistan as winter approaches. And some of that aid comes via Afghanistan's former occupier. These guards, you're about to see -- or at least, we hope -- Russian guards are guarding a compound full of this humanitarian aid in Kabul. How strange the world has gotten. Farther south, a scene beginning to look like the ones that preceded the fall of so many other cities in the war. Kandahar now appears to be surrounded, this most critical city. Depending on who's doing to talking, anti-Taliban fighters have either entered parts of the city, or are fighting very close by. There's talk of surrender as well. But inside Kandahar, many Taliban soldiers are vowing to fight to the death, and threatening death to anyone death to anyone who's considering surrender.
Again, we're joined by CNN's Nic Robertson, who has been covering this all. Nic, good morning again.
ROBERTSON: Good morning, Aaron.
Something interesting yesterday from here at the border inside Pakistan. We're seeing that the border on the Afghan side, more Taliban fighters than we had done recently. We've been reporting, and seeing, the defections of several Taliban commanders and officials lately from that town.
We've been reporting that the town had been up for surrender by the Taliban, but we saw a new Taliban commander yesterday. He was driving a car from the town of Mazar-e Sharif in the north, an indication that he is one of those Taliban commanders who had suffered defeat in the north, and has been relocated to the south. And his talk was very tough -- very much the same as a radio address given by the Taliban leader Mullah Omar just a few hours before, where he called for no more ground to be given away to the Northern Alliance.
The commander telling us that he would fight this patch to the death, as long as Mullah Omar was the leader. But what we're hearing from the Pashtun tribes around here, who are vying for power in Kandahar, is that they are close to Kandahar. They do control some towns close by. Just how firmly they control them, just how able they are to push forward to Kandahar, that's not clear.
The noose does appear to be tightening, however, around that key town for the Taliban.
BROWN: Nic, talk for a minute about the relationship between the Northern Alliance forces, who have much of the country now, and the Pashtun forces, who are moving into Kandahar.
ROBERTSON: Typically, the Northern Alliance forces would be regarded as those with an ethnic background for the north of Afghanistan -- the Uzbeks, the Tajiks, the Hezaras. In the south, the forces are drawn from the Pashtun tribes. Now, they're the same ethnic background as the Taliban. If you believe the international figure for the Pashtun content of Afghanistan, it's 38 percent.
If you believe a Pashtun figure for the Pashtun content of Afghanistan, it could as high as 65 percent. The Pashtuns do see themselves as an important part of Afghanistan. They have, for the last two centuries, always provided the ruler for Afghanistan. So they see themselves as being very important. They are the Pashtun tribes now I vying for Kandahar. There are several tribes, perhaps as many as half a dozen, that would see themselves as key players there.
How do they relate to the Northern Alliance? Well, if you talk to the Pashtun tribes around here, they'll tell you that some of those provinces that we now talk about in the rest of Afghanistan, being a Northern Alliance control, they would say not really, not really Northern Alliance. They're really with the king. They're really with the Pashtuns.
So the Pashtuns here, at the moment, the brothers in arms, if you will, of the Northern Alliance. But it would appear, because of differences they've had over many centuries, perhaps it's not going to be smooth waters all the wait yet -- Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thanks. Nic Robertson on the border tonight, thank you.
Just ahead, the reported capture of a top al Qaeda member. Also, a key concession that could pave the way for a new Afghan government. NEWSNIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We haven't had much to say lately about the hunt for al Qaeda members abroad, because until now, it just hasn't been clear how much progress has been made on that front. But tonight there is a tantalizing development -- reports an al Qaeda operative fell into the hands of the Northern Alliance. Ahmed Omar Abdel Rahman, the son of the so-called blind sheik, now serving time for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
The younger Rahman is said to be a key recruiter for al Qaeda, a member of the inner circle. In the words of one government official, a significant catch. No word so far on where he is being held. And indeed, no official confirmation from the U.S. military that he is in custody at all.
Meantime, the search for Osama bin Laden goes on, focusing on the territory along the Pakistani border. There are a lot of places to hide, but the hope now is that there are fewer opportunities for bin Laden to slip away for good. Here's CNN's Tom Mintier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, the search goes on for the most wanted man on earth -- Osama bin Laden.
This man is a member of the Taliban and claims to have permission to cross the border. The guards are not impressed. He is turned away. In the light of day, the controls are tight. Everyone who approaches the border is screened. In the middle of the night, it may be easier.
Pakistani border patrols are on the lookout, not only for Osama bin Laden, but members of his al Qaeda network or senior Taliban officials. GEN. PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: I don't know his whereabouts, but I'm very sure he is not in Pakistan, and he has not crossed over into Pakistan. We made all the arrangements on the border to seal the border, and to ensure checks. Even including the army doing this.
MINTIER: The search for Osama bin Laden is not limited to border crossings. Military controls have been stepped up, but Pakistan's rugged terrain runs for more than 1,000 miles. Smugglers use these routes daily. Coming across the mountains in the middle of the night could be possible.
RASHID QURESHI, MAJOR GENERAL,PAKISTANI GVT. SPOKESMAN: No presence of this man or anyone else related to al Qaeda inside Pakistan.
MINTIER: Pakistan's foreign minister, Abdul Satter, told CNN that some Taliban had been arrested crossing the border.
ABDUL SATTER, PAKISTANI FOREIGN MINISTER: There are some people who have come, and they had been put under detention. But to the best of my knowledge, they are not Afghans, they are foreigners.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden?
SATTER: I don't they have identified as yet. But investigations will be conducted, interrogation will be done.
MINTIER (on camera): Just who they are, or what role they had in the Taliban or al Qaeda is not clear. But this is the first time that Pakistan has indicated they had detained what they termed, "foreigners." It may be an indication of how some Taliban were attempting to get out of Afghanistan. But it appears to be an exit route that is being watched closely.
Tom Mintier, CNN, Islamabad, Pakistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The diplomats for the Northern Alliance did an about face today in Bonn, Germany, where the Afghan factions are trying to put together some sort of interim government. But this was an about face the United States and the will welcome.
The Alliance dropped its opposition to an outside security force on the ground in Afghanistan. But, because the U.S. has been burned before, Secretary of State Powell did not comment on all of this today, except to say, "I think it's best to wait until they finish their work in Bonn." And they aren't there yet.
In Afghanistan, ordinary people there have little opportunities, of course, to follow the developments in Germany. They have their priorities, these days. And chief among them, just getting through the war and surviving the winter. Many say, whatever happens at the negotiating table, whatever it is, they'll find out soon enough.
But mixed in is some fear and cynicism, but some hope as well. Harris Whitbeck now, in Kabul.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the past 20 years, Nazar Salmay (ph) has run a mathematics academy in Kabul. He says he has prepared some of the best students in the country, who consistently scored the highest in the national university entrance exam. But during the years of the Taliban regime, attendance dropped by more than 60 percent. Many students fled the war in the city. Others were too afraid to go to non-religious schools.
"They couldn't think about the future. There were very pessimistic," he says. "But there is now reason for hope." His students say they are keenly interested in the talks in Bonn about a new government.
"I'm optimistic," says 19-year-old Samir. "The people are all tired of the fighting, and we don't want any more problems."
Just a few blocks down the street, a carpenter and his son also dream of a rebuilt nation. Zaqir says he looks forward to getting an education in a peaceful Afghanistan. But shopkeeper Zaid Himiloda (ph) is a bit more pragmatic. "I hope it works out," he says. "But right now, every side seems to be positioning itself for its own benefit."
Years of war have left Afghans deeply skeptical of anyone who seeks power.
(on camera): So the new rulers will not only have to rebuild the country, they will also have to rebuild the trust of its people. Harris Whitbeck, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, we went to a hockey game and a House-Senate conference committee broke out. That's an old joke, isn't it? Rough and tumble politics, when we come back. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, we've admitted this before, we do it again, tonight. We actually like a good political food fight. It may not be great government, but it does remind us that the issues they deal with in Washington are real, and that often the two sides feel dramatically different about them. And occasionally they drop their "esteemed" this and "honored" that, and duke it out.
It happened late last night. It happened behind closed doors, but it did happen. It was a nasty little tiff, it was. And I was going to steal the punch line here, but I changed my mind. CNN Congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl, work this out. Jon, I'll give you the punch line. Who was fighting?
(LAUGHTER) JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's the best part about this, Aaron. This was Republican against Republican -- a food fight, if you will, a heated exchange between two of the country's top Republicans: the very top Republican in the Senate, Trent Lott, and the No. 2 Republican in the House of Representatives, Dick Armey.
They were at a meeting last night with the Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill and the rest of the Republican leadership of the House and Senate. When the discussion was getting to the point of how were they going to deal with the Senate Democrats on an economic stimulus bill. And Trent Lott was proposing negotiations with the Senate Democrats, when the Republican leadership -- especially, by the way, not Dick Armey, but Tom DeLay, the Republican whip, was saying, "we don't need to deal with the Democrats on this until the Senate actually comes through and passes a bill."
Well, anyway at this point, an exasperated Trent Lott came forward and he said, "look," pointing to the Republicans in the House, "they don't even want to pass a stimulus bill." And at that point, Dick Armey, we are told by several sources at this meeting, got up and starting banging his fists on the table, was red in the face.
According to -- I'm going to read one source at this meeting. He said to me, "Armey went berserk. He banged his fist on the table, stood up, and said, 'you can't say we don't want a bill. We've already passed a bill. It's the Senate that's done nothing.'"
Now, I spoke with Armey's spokesperson tonight, who said, look, Armey didn't go berserk. He was expressing honest to goodness anger. It was an honest disagreement. He felt strongly about the issues. That he and Trent Lott have known each other for a long time, they will patch things up, they will work together.
But it's a sign, Aaron, of some real serious dissension, not between Democrat and Republican, but between Republican and Republican.
BROWN: And the underlying issue here, is it more than economic stimulus? Are there still bad feelings from a month and a half ago?
KARL: Yes, clearly that's the feeling among many here, is that this goes back to the anthrax situation. When you remember the House of Representatives, shut down because of the anthrax attack here on Capitol Hill, because they believe the Senate was also going to shut down. The Senate ended up staying open. You held up a newspaper that day, when the "New York Post" called the House of Representative leaders, "wimps," and there clearly are some bad feels there.
As a matter of fact, Aaron, we never talked about this at the time, but shortly after that, the speaker of the House stood up at a meeting of House Republicans and said, "we have a new attitude towards dealing with the Senate. It's trust, but verify," using an old Cold War expression, suggesting that they need to deal with their Senate Republican counterparts the way the U.S. dealt with the Soviet Union during the Cold War. So clearly some bad feelings from that still linger.
AARON BROWN, ANCHOR: Jonathan, thank you. We'd like the food fight. If we're Democrat on Democrat, we don't care. We are bipartisan when that is concerned. Thank you for your help.
KARL: Sure.
BROWN: I hope my holding up the newspaper didn't contribute to that little mess.
Lots of things up on the Hill and in Washington generally these days that are interesting to us, and a pretty fair guest to talk about them all. We're pleased to have the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Joe Biden, with us tonight. The senator joins us from Wilmington, Delaware. Good evening, sir. It's nice to see you.
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN, CHAIRMAN, SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Good evening. How are you?
BROWN: Fine, thanks. Let me hopscotch on number of different things. We talked earlier with John King about this -- these issues surrounding the European Union, Spain, what happens if they catch someone we want, and we insist on a military tribunal. How, if the president asked your advice, would you suggest he deal with this?
BIDEN: I'd suggest he -- he reconsider the blanket assertion about military tribunals. You know, he has the constitutional authority, in my view, to have these tribunals assuming they deal with foreigners and are related to violations of war rules -- and there are rules. And he has the authority to do that.
There used to famous constitutional scholar in last the part of 20th century who was a leading conservative. His name was Phil Curlin (ph), University of Chicago. And I relied on him a lot. And I remember sitting on my side porch one day and I said, "But it's constitutional." He looked at me and said, "Remember, Joe, that everything that is constitutional isn't necessarily wise."
And the question here is, is the end result going to be benefited by these tribunals? And if the Spanish and others get key members of al Qaeda and will not extradite them but will not keep them indefinitely in their jails and let them go, then it seems to me we have talked very tough but we have not been very wise. And I don't know how the president's going to parse this.
BROWN: On the subject of talking tough, the president talked pretty tough about Iraq on Monday. I think it was Monday. Maybe it was Tuesday now. Wise, not wise?
BIDEN: Wise in that there is a consensus among all of us Democrats and Republicans that if we have capability and the justification -- and I think there is justification based on his overall conduct -- to take out Saddam Hussein, we should do it.
But again, the question is, if by doing it unilaterally, doing it without the consent, if you will, of our partners and without the -- the blessing of those who we are relying on to help us in other places, then again, it's counterproductive.
And so the administration, Aaron, I think has been sending mixed signals. Today the secretary of state spoke before us and we asked him whether or not there is any proof that anything relating to al Qaeda and Bin Laden and 9-11 was -- came out of Iraq and he said no, none.
And on the other hand, at the same time, we passed a resolution today that the administration should be complimented for extending sanctions against Iraq and also toughening them, by getting the Russians to join onboard this time to allow us to tighten the noose on Saddam, on those kinds of things that he could use for negative purposes and freeing up the ability to feed the folks in the country.
And it would seem to me that that's one signal saying well, we are not going to do this unilaterally. And then the president makes statements and some are questioning whether or not statement was so tough to satisfy his far right or whether or not he really means it. And the truth of the matter is I don't know what the answer to that is.
BROWN: Well, let me ask you one more. And we'll let you -- we'll let you get on with your night. Some concern among some of the allies that they're not being allowed to be on the ground in Afghanistan, that the United States is running the whole operation there. Is that going be to a problem as we go forward here?
BIDEN: Well, it will be a problem only if when we put in a multilateral force to secure the areas and allow for the dissemination of the food and the setting up a temporary -- a transition government, that they are not included.
Right now, understandably, we don't want anybody there who is going to tell us how we have to go after al Qaeda and whether we can and when we can. So General Franks is a bit concerned that if there are others on the ground right now, that they may decide that there needs to be a consensus to blow up this cave or that cave or do certain things relating to going after al Qaeda.
But I believe that it's going to be necessary to have multilateral forces on the ground in the near term to be able to stablize things there. And if they are not included in that circumstance -- which I believe they will be. If they're not included then, then I think we begin to see some fissures in the relationship.
BROWN: Senator Biden, I hope you come back and talk to us some more...
BIDEN: I'm delighted...
BROWN: ...in the days ahead. Thank you.
BIDEN: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you, sir. Senator Joseph Biden of Delaware, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. We'll continue in a moment on NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, it might be less nervewracking than a knock on the door, but it's unsettling to some nevrertheless. Hundreds of mostly young, Middle Eastern men in Michigan are getting letters from law enforcement officials inviting them to be interviewed.
A lot of them are students. And tonight at the University of Michigan there was a meeting to let students talk about how they feel about this, ask some legal questions before they go in for any interview.
With us tonight one of the organizers, Paul Saba, who is president of the University of Michigan Anti-Discrimination Committee. And Ala Saket, a student at Eastern Michigan University. Good evening to both of you.
PAUL SABA, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN ANTI-DISCRIMINATION COMMITTEE: Good evening, Aaron.
ALA SAKET, EASTERN MICHIGAN UNIVERSITY: Good evening, Aaron.
BROWN: Let me start, Paul, with you if I can. What is -- what sort of concerns were you hearing tonight?
SABA: Well, we started off with a panel of approximately five lawyers who are there to basically represent and to notify anyone who is interested in this meeting -- basically student here with a visa -- of their rights. The letter does not include that you are able to have attorney with you or -- and/or a translator.
Basically, this was a meeting for anyone eligible to receive the letter to know your rights and know how to respond to the letter.
BROWN: And Mr. Saket, have you gotten a letter yet, by the way?
SAKET: No, I haven't, Aaron.
BROWN: And what -- what exactly you are concerned about here? I mean, we all heard the president say earlier today that if you are in this country and you're enjoying privileges of this country you ought to be willing to help out in this investigation. So what's the issue?
SAKET: Well, normally, we wouldn't be too concerned about what's going on except that all the stuff we have heard about in the media and from Attorney General Ashcroft, somewhat of not quite exactly threats but it was somewhat harsh language. But what we have been told today at the meeting by some of the ACLU lawyers about cases that have -- or people that have actually been questioned, some of the questions have been somewhat unsettling.
BROWN: Like what?
SAKET: They gave an example of someone who was asked whether he has ever known anyone that's been involved in criminal activities, so he said no. But then he was told, that -- or asked whether he was with anyone that was underage drinking. At that point he said, "Well, yes, of course, everyone has been with someone like that at college." And at that point they said, "Well, you know what? You just gave a false statement to the FBI and that's illegal."
SABA: We view this as a form of maybe entrapment. Not knowing your rights, especially if you are -- you have broken English as an international student and/or someone on a visa, if you don't have an attorney present and say around the country -- and I'm on the eastern side of Michigan -- someone knocks -- the FBI knocks on your door, how are they going to know what to say without the available resources that they are entitled to?
And we are afraid of -- of manipulative questions. Maybe something like anything anti-American you may have participated in. Well, there might be something anti-U.S. foreign policy but not necessarily anti-American and I think that there's a thin line that could be drawn there and it's very, very risky for the person being interviewed.
BROWN: Mr. Saket, I've got about 15 seconds left. They call this an invitation. Do you think it's an invitation or do you think it's something else?
SAKET: Well, it's an invitation that you are required to attend. I mean, they are expecting an RSVP on this thing. And we get the feeling that it's probably safer to go so that you are not subject to further investigations and just -- quite frankly, just to get it over with.
I mean, most of us have nothing to hide, and like you said, we have enjoyed the educational experience here -- and like the president said. And we are glad to help. But I think the way that it's been handled and all the media hype and whatnot has created a feeling of doubt and uncertainty and painted us in a guilty light.
BROWN: Gentlemen, thank you both for joining us.
SABA: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
SAKET: Thank you very much.
BROWN: Thank you. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, imagine what you're doing right now being a crime. Watching television. If it was in Afghanistan, it was. Not anymore. A lot of TV watching to catch up with there. So we will, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Part of the new normal now in Afghanistan: couch potatos. Yeah, couch potatoes. All those televisions dug up, dusted off and turned on. For people so deprived for so long, this truly is must-see TV. Watching it with them, CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: The lights are out. Cloth covers the windows, and about a dozen people watch closely as a TV flickers on the wall. With all representations of the human form banned under the Taliban, this matinee crowd in Kabul is getting a eyeful.
"Perhaps the Taliban would have given me a severe beating," says Abdullah, who owns this video salon, "and perhaps they would have sent me to jail." That's after smashing his TV.
Instead, today, Abdullah is making a killing -- about $10 a day -- at his storefront video theater. "They're showing us a very interesting American film," says Hali Lola (ph). He and the others say they are happy and they like their freedom.
So too at the Kabul TV station. We arrived as engineers were taking their live broadcasting vans out of five-year storage and dusting off the consoles. Setting up their cameras, eager to be back on the job after five years in the professional wilderness. "Today I'm very lucky that I'm standing behind my camera again," says Hrail Mohamed (ph), "to record the smiles of my countrymen instead of their sorrows."
He and his colleagues show us their Taliban ID cards, when they had to wear turbans and full beards. "During the Taliban years we just recorded with our eyes," laughs Enayatollah (ph). Technology has passed them by, but they say they can't wait to broadcast again. Music and soccer matches, even the next loya jirgha, the grand council they hope will sort out Afghanistan's fractious politics.
Under the Taliban, people who dared own satellite dishes would bring them out secretly at night. Now, new ones are being churned out by the day, covered in whatever sheet metal they find. Those that can't afford one make do with an old antenna. Anything will do for a city of people eager to catch up on the years they have missed.
TV repair shops are trying to keep up with demand. Some workers remember the time they were hauled off to jail. Here, they tell us, the Taliban's favorite punishment for TV watchers: painting their faces black, dragging them through the marketplace and forcing offenders to call themselves criminals. Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Kabul.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: Does your heart good. Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, the widows of September 11th demanding that ground zero and the recovery be treated as sacred. We'll talk with the woman who leads them in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It'd be impossible to catalog all the indignities of September 11th. But maybe the ultimate one for many families is having no body to bury at all. Mary Fontana is the president of the 9/11 Widows and Victims Families.
Tonight she actually snuck into the landfill where the debris is going, trying to make sure that it's being handled appropriately and with care. Her husband was firefighter Dave Fontana died on the 11th of September. Good evening.
MARY FONTANA, PRESIDENT, 9/11 WIDOWS AND VICTIMS FAMILIES: Good evening. Thanks for having me.
BROWN: Our condolences.
FONTANA: Thank you.
BROWN: Did you find out anything at the landfill?
FONTANA: I did. I didn't see some of things that were reported to me by the liaison that brought me there, but I did find -- I walked through the area where all the fire trucks, ambulances, police cars were being stacked and I found a piece of a boot laying on the ground.
BROWN: What are you worried about here?
FONTANA: Well, as you could imagine, we are all -- we really can't have closure until we have something of our loved ones. Of course we want a body, but as time passes we are starting to realize that that has become, you know, less of a reality. So we are hoping to get anything. And if it's piece of a boot, then it needs to be piece of a boot.
And the way they are handling it things are not being DNDd properly. They don't have forensic experts out there. There's a lot of things not being handled the way it should be.
BROWN: You know, we have seen a lot of ground zero shots over the last few weeks and months. And one of thing we have always noted is the great respect and dignity that is accorded when they do in fact find someone. Are you concerned that they are -- they are going about their business too quickly to find as many people as they might or as much as they possibly could?
FONTANA: I definitely feel that that's big concern. I mean, the World Trade Center is a huge financial center. As you know, the real estate property is worth a lot of money.
We have been trying to communicate with Silverstein Properties to try to make sure that whatever they put there we have a say in. And we are making sure that they don't -- you know, that they retrieve the bodies with dignity and are not there to make it a construction site and rush through the retrieval effort.
BROWN: It's a -- I'm sure you know this better than any of us do. It's difficult balance that they are trying to accomplish down there, don't you think?
FONTANA: I do, I do. I understand there is financial incentives and I know people want to move on. I know they want to rebuild. But you have to realize as everyone else is moving on the families and myself can't until we have something from our loved ones. And until then we can't move on. So it's hard to...
BROWN: Has the city been supportive generally?
FONTANA: The city has been very receptive. We're meeting with the mayor tomorrow evening. He has been very open to hearing our concerns and I -- I do see him really trying to make a concerted effort to work with us in this.
I know he's pulled in a lot of directions and he can't cover everything at the same time, and that's why I feel it's important that this organization is vigilant in watching the site, watching the dump and making sure that everything is being handled the way it should be.
BROWN: A couple other things. As I recall you have a young son, a five-year-old.
FONTANA: Yes.
BROWN: How he is doing?
FONTANA: He's grieving. He's angry. He's hurt. He misses Dave a lot. My husband spent more time with him than I did even. He was -- we -- you know, he was pretty much a full-time dad when he wasn't being a fireman and my son is feeling it very deeply, as we all are.
BROWN: And how are the -- half a minute. Are people -- the families doing OK? Are they getting the money they need, the support they need to help them?
FONTANA: Not all families. I think the civilians aren't really getting what they need. The firefighter families are well taken care of. We have the firehouses, we have the firemen helping us do the paperwork and helping us through the system. But I think there are some civilian concerns that need to be addressed.
BROWN: We'll talk again.
FONTANA: OK.
BROWN: Thanks for coming in.
FONTANA: Thank you.
BROWN: Terrific job tonight.
FONTANA: Thank you very much.
BROWN: Thank you. And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally, tonight, the no mystery guest segment. We walked in today to about 250 e-mails, most -- believe it or not -- dealing with the mystery guests of the last three nights. And mostly, we can tell you, people are pretty cool with this silly idea. But those who are not really hate it.
We like the fun of it. That's the truth. The program needs to be interesting and informative and respectful to the day's news, but it also can and will be fun from time to time.
And the e-mails we've been getting on mystery guests and civil liberties and the military and the press -- all of them, they are a joy. It means you are engaged in the program. Happy or angry, doesn't matter, You're engaged and that's the highest compliment of all.
We read them all, we answer many. We hope you'll keep writing, good or bad. The address is NEWSNIGHT at CNN.com. And one more thing. Enough about the smirk. It's just the way I smile. We will see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good night.
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