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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Bodies of Two Americans Killed by Friendly Fire Arrive in Germany; Interview with John Ashcroft

Aired December 06, 2001 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. Again tonight, proving we never really learn our lesson here, we're going to spend some time in the debate over civil liberties and national security, and the very difficult balance the administration is trying to reach.

No issue in the last 12 weeks has caused so much fuss and so much angry response. Just talking about it seems more than some people are willing to allow. When I was thinking about that today, I remembered back to 1969. I was in the service, and our ship was docked in Boston Harbor.

At liberty that weekend, I was walking to the store to buy some civilian clothes, when a VW bug pulled up alongside me and the people inside leaned out the window and shouted "Baby killer." I was stunned. I was in the coast Guard, the reserves, no less. I could barely tie a square knot, let alone fire a gun. But that was not a time of reason, discussion and debate on either side.

I thought of that today when the attorney general made some comments about disagreeing with the administration on some of these civil liberties questions we kick around tonight. I hope we're not headed for that Vietnam-era nastiness again -- that whatever people might disagree on, we all should have learned something from the public debate in Vietnam, that the debate can and should be spirited, it never ought to be nasty. And neither side should assume that either God or the American flag is on their side.

On to the day's news. Two of the Americans killed by friendly fire began their final trip home today, their bodies arriving in Germany. The fighting continues to build in the Tora Bora region, the northern part of Afghanistan. Al Qaeda fighters, perhaps even Osama bin Laden himself, being flushed out in the attacks.

At Ground Zero today, one fewer victim on the missing list. One more family that will have someone to bury. Nearly 3,100 people, though, remain listed as missing tonight.

And while the national Christmas tree was unveiled in Washington, this was the tree lighting that we liked best, down in lower Manhattan today, Battery Park. A very short walk to the place where this all began, almost three months ago.

Also tonight, as Larry mentioned, we'll talk with the attorney general about the military tribunals and about public dissent. We'll also talk with Republican Arlen Specter, the senator from Pennsylvania. He has some concerns with the administration's policies.

You'll also hear, for the first time in any detail, from one of the Americans wounded at the prison revolt in Mazar-e Sharif. It is very dramatic stuff.

And oh, there's that little piece of business about the poll in the Atlanta newspaper's online edition. We mentioned in closing last night there have been some major developments on that front as well. And while that comes at the end of the hour, let me just say, you are wonderful.

We begin with our whip around the world and the men and women covering it all. A possible deal, and perhaps problems on the American side in Kandahar. Nic Robertson, covering the story for us. Nic, a headline from you, please.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, in Kandahar, the Taliban spiritual capital, they negotiate a surrender. Already, the airport in the neighboring province of Helmand fall to anti-Taliban forces. And at the Marine base, 60 miles outside of Kandahar city, Marines go on high alert as gunfire is detected on their perimeter.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Now to eastern Afghanistan, where the hunt appears to be intensifying for Osama bin Laden. Brent Sadler is covering the story. He joins us on the phone. The headline, please.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: U.S. heavy bombers are again in action over skies over eastern Afghanistan, focusing on the Tora Bora mountain stronghold held by al Qaeda diehards, and possibly Osama bin Laden himself. Anti-Taliban Afghan forces, now poised to launch another attack against Tora Bora.

BROWN: Brent, back with you shortly, too. And in Washington, a discovery in the anthrax-laced letter addressed to Senator Patrick Leahy. Susan Candiotti, working the anthrax story again, tonight. Susan, the headline, please.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. The letter inside that envelope is out, and it appears to match the one to Senate majority leader Tom Daschle, just as investigators expected. Another expectation, it's laced with deadly anthrax. We'll show you brand new photos of scientists, as they begin their examination.

BROWN: Susan, thank you. Back with all of you shortly.

We being in Kandahar first. They always try to cut a deal, a plea bargain, even in war. But whether the deal tonight -- a deal that would allow the head of the Taliban to live on in safety -- while that deal may be OK with the anti-Taliban warriors, it may not fly in Washington.

CNN's Nic Robertson again now, from the border at Chaman, Pakistan, on Kandahar and other developments in that part of the country -- Nic.

ROBERTSON: Well, Aaron, let's start with how the deal that the Taliban have negotiated looks from their point of view. The Taliban's view on this is that they're going to hand over Kandahar to a tribal leader, to tribal elders, in fact. They say that they trust him and they'll hand over the city to him.

Now, the Taliban say they'll hand over their guns, their fighters will go home, their leaders will go home, and that the man they negotiated this deal with, the new head of Afghanistan's interim government, Mr. Hamid Karzai, will not even be allowed to enter the city.

Now, from Mr. Karzai's point of view, he agrees that there is an amnesty for the fighters, but says the Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar must renounce his links with terrorism, must renounce violence, he must do that, openly.

He also says, Mr. Hamid Karzai, also says that those 600 or so Arab fighters, that are believed to be in and around Kandahar, must leave the country. He said these are international fighters. They have no presence needed in our country. They've destroyed the country, and they must get out of the country immediately, and face international justice.

These are just some of the stumbling blocks for the international community. But Mr. Karzai says the reason he's negotiated this deal with the Taliban is to prevent further loss of life in the city.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAMID KARZAI, PASHTUN LEADER: The Taliban leaders have decided to surrender Kandahar. And that in return, we have offered them amnesty, and they can go to their homes safe, without any trouble. There has not been any specific conditions, and we only arranged to discuss the modalities of transfer of power, in order to prevent chaos, in order to prevent confusion. The transfer of power will be done in a slow but orderly manner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: And we've been talking to our sources in the early hours of this morning, to see exactly what is happening in Kandahar now. They tell us that it's relatively quiet at this time. But earlier in the night, they said that there was bombing in the eastern edge of the city. They also said that a lot of the Taliban fighters were leaving the city, getting out. They also said they'd seen Arab fighters on the streets.

But what we do know is that the airport has changed hands to the former governor of Kandahar, a tribal leader. He says that his forces are moving in on the city. Sources inside the city say they don't see evidence of that.

And also, one of the key provinces that has been a key supporter of the Taliban, provided it with a lot of fighters in the past. That province of Helmand has also changed hands, away from the Taliban to tribal elements. But of course, another development around Kandahar, that in the middle of the night, the U.S. Marines at Camp Rhino, about 60 miles southwest of Kandahar, detected some gunfire on the perimeter of their base on two occasions, and there were exchanges of fire.

And at one point, a helicopter did make an emergency landing, a small crash within the airport base complex that the Marines are operating from. The helicopter did catch fire. Two servicemen were injured slightly, we understand -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson from Chaman, Pakistan tonight, reporting on the negotiations and other events today.

Never once has the president said he'd be willing to cut a deal that would leave Mullah Omar free. "No negotiations," said the president. He said that before Congress, he said it since. And so this possible deal is causing the administration some problems. More now from CNN military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: The Pentagon insists when Kandahar falls, it wants Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, taken prisoner.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Obviously, he has been the principle person who has been harboring the al Qaeda network in that country. He does not deserve the medal of freedom.

MCINTYRE: A senior Pentagon official expressed "deep concern" that Hamid Karzai, designated leader of the new interim government, might cut a deal with Omar and other top Taliban that would -- quote -- "let them off the hook." That would cause, "serious strains with the new Afghan government," he said -- warning echoed by Secretary Rumsfeld.

RUMSFELD: Our cooperation and assistance with those people would clearly take a turn south, if something were to be done with respect to the senior people in that situation that was inconsistent with what I've said.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. insists it wants all Taliban officials imprisoned until they can be sorted out. Meanwhile, eastern opposition forces, urged on and supported by U.S. special forces on the ground, are continuing the search for Osama bin Laden in Tora Bora.

GEN. PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS: They have moved up the Tora Bora valley in that cave complex area. As is the battlefield elsewhere, it's very fluid. But they have, in fact, been directing their ground attacks against the facilities, and we've been assisting them with our air support.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. has suffered more accidental injuries. Two U.S. Marines were hurt, but not critically, when a Huey helicopter caught fire after a hard landing at the U.S. base southwest of Kandahar.

(on camera): The latest on the fighting is that opposition forces are at the Kandahar airport, and the U.S. has carried out airstrikes to help solidify their positions.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Updates here now, on the hunt for bin Laden. They are going, as Jamie indicated, hill by hill and cave by cave. Anti- Taliban fighters continue their search for Osama bin Laden, backed up by U.S. air support and, we are told, special forces who are calling down airstrikes. But it is rugged terrain there. It is very slow going. And a fire-fight over the next ridge can turn into close- quarter combat in a heartbeat.

Brent Sadler is working the story for us tonight. He joins us again on the phone -- Brent.

SADLER: Yes, indeed, Aaron.

I was up in that area just some hours ago, and I can tell you that you're absolutely right. It can turn on a dime, the way the battleground there is laid out. You've got U.S. warplanes. We saw possibly an F-16 in action, B-1, B-52 heaver bombers, pounding al Qaeda terrorist positions. We've seen one or two abandoned bunkers.

They've talked about having captured several caves -- caves big enough, it's worth mentioning, to hold a tank. Tanks being used as artillery forces to beat back the anti-Taliban forces trying to take this mountain approach into Tora Bora. Tora Bora is very high altitude, that impregnable fortress, where al Qaeda network terrorists are thought to be hiding, and possibly, as you say, Osama bin Laden himself.

Now, it is an absolutely formidable challenge for these anti- Taliban warriors to take on this operation. They have sustained some casualties. They're extraordinary (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the U.S. airstrikes, but they say there's no direct close air support coordination, although we do know that there are U.S. personnel on the ground, obviously, coordinating from their side, the U.S. side, those air strikes.

It's a blue sky day here today, compared to cloudy conditions yesterday. There wasn't so much bombing 24 hours ago, but we expect the anti-Taliban forces to launch another tank, an infantry assault today. trying to push further into that valley which leads up to Tora Bora, in these white mountains of eastern Afghanistan -- Aaron.

BROWN: Brent, do you have any sense of how many fighters are on each side of the line here?

SADLER: Difficult to say. I was there looking inside some of the captured four-wheel drive vehicles. They were camouflaged with thickly-caked mud, inside those vehicles. I was looking at various textbooks and manuals. Some of them referred to terror organizations, well-known throughout the world. And the fighters on the ground said that the operators of those vehicles have fled to higher ground in a tree line that we can see, just a kilometer away.

And while we were there, a U.S. strike came in about half-a-mile from our position. So you can see that the air support of the U.S. is throwing down on those positions. It comes very close to the anti- Taliban forces. Certainly, pockets of them -- scores, not thousands, by any means -- they say they took the other four up against a force of about 2,000 al Qaeda fighters. And they know they've got a really tough and long battle on their hands, here.

BROWN: And just one other quick one: do you have any sense of casualties being taken on the anti-Taliban forces side?

SADLER: No, we've not seen any bodies. Reports of several fatalities, several light injuries. But I don't think the fighting really has picked up to the stage where we're going to see, and going to be able to get access to people in the field. We saw, just at sunset, some 12 hours ago, the anti-Taliban forces actually pulling back, fearing there might have been an al Qaeda counterattack in the offing. Gives you an idea of the resistance up there.

BROWN: Brent, thank you. Brent Sadler, who is working the Tora Bora part of the story, up in the northern part of Afghanistan.

It is in the southern part of Afghanistan, outside of Kandahar, that the American Marines have set up their base. Allen Pizzey is the pool reporter covering the story. Trying to get Allen on the phone. Allen, are you there?

ALLEN PIZZEY, POOL REPORTER: I am indeed. Good morning.

BROWN: Good morning to you. What can you tell that's going on there now?

PIZZEY: Well, dawn has broken and it's very quiet this morning, after quite a noisy and nervous night. The Marines went on to what they called a stand-two position, a state of alert, several times. Early in the evening, there were a lot of illumination rounds put out, there were some mortar rounds fired.

The Marines said they thought there was a credible threat, someone trying to penetrate their security. And then later on in the night, a Huey helicopter crash. Now, initial reports said that they were 99 percent sure it was not the result of any enemy action, but simply an accident. Perhaps dust was a factor. And it's very dusty here.

Two Marines were injured when that helicopter crashed. It lit up the night sky with a bright orange glow. Black smoke roiled up into the sky, and then there was the sound of almighty gunfire. And for a little while people thought there was a serious attack being mounted. It turned out it was almost certainly the ammunition that was in that Huey helicopter going off. But there were a lot of nerves jangling. And later on, just before dawn, the press was waken up. They said it was time to stand. Again we were ordered into our flack jackets and helmets, and down into our little trench that's been dug for us. But that didn't last long.

That appeared to be just a case of nerves. This morning, everything is very normal. I can look around and see Marines getting up and shaving, washing and shaving, using the mirrors of their Humvees to do it. Out on the perimeter, as far as I can see, men are coming out of their fighting holes and wandering about.

I will say that they're very keen on hygiene here. Even though it's cold and it's just dawn here, men are stripped to the waist and making themselves as clean as they can. They bear in mind, very much, that more than 60 percent of the Russian soldiers who invaded Afghanistan were struck down with debilitating illnesses -- dysentery, that sort of thing.

So, apart from keeping your flack jacket and helmet on when the stand-to order comes, they're very keen on keeping themselves clean, as well. No easy task in the dust here, I can tell you.

BROWN: Allen, they are Marines. Thank you very much. Allen Pizzey, the pool reporter at Camp Rhino tonight, with the Marines.

Still ahead from us tonight: Could it crack the anthrax mystery? At long last, the anthrax-laced letter sent to Senator Patrick Leahy has been opened. We'll tell you more about that. Much more ahead. NEWSNIGHT continues, on Thursday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It tells you a lot about how dangerous the anthrax letter sent to Patrick Leahy is, that it's taken weeks just to figure out a safe way to safely it. But it is open now. And investigators hope there is not just anthrax, but real evidence inside, about who sent it.

And late tonight, word of a possible new contamination of anthrax elsewhere. CNN's Susan Candiotti in Washington, tracking both stories for us. Susan, good evening to you again.

CANDIOTTI: Good evening, Aaron.

News tonight from the Federal Reserve. A mail bin at a Federal Reserve mail processing center in Virginia, showing signs of anthrax exposure. Now, we caution these are preliminary results. Often, additional test turn out to be negative.

Investigators will do more screening on the mail bin tomorrow. Some of the mail sent to that processing center goes through the Brentwood facility, where two postal workers inhaled a fatal dose of anthrax. The Federal Reserve has postponed a regularly-scheduled board meeting for tomorrow. However, the Reserve building in Washington is open for business, as usual. Now, on to the Leahy letter. So far, investigators not surprised to discover the letter inside that envelope matches the one sent to Senate majority leader Tom Daschle. But here is something new: photos. The FBI releasing a look at some of the extraordinary steps its experts are taking as the examination begins.

This first one shows a scientist starting to remove the Leahy letter from a sealed container. All this happening at the Army bioterror research lab in Maryland.

The next still photo shows them using a small pair of scissors to cut open one side of the envelope. Then the specialist pulls out the letter. Finally, we see it unfolded. It appears identical to the Daschle letter. All of this, being done in a sterile environment.

There's the Daschle letter up close now. You'll see it soon. The first of the two sent to the senators in October. They have the same threatening message: "You die now. Are you afraid? Death to America, death to Israel. Allah is great."

The FBI will now decontaminate the envelope and letter for closer scientific and forensic tests, looking for fingerprints, environmental clues, like fibers. And exhaustive testing is already under way of the powder inside, suspected, just like the Daschle anthrax, to be highly sophisticated and very deadly.

But will it lead investigators to those responsible for the attacks? This may be their very best hope -- Aaron.

BROWN: Susan, thank you. CNN's Susan Candiotti, in Washington tonight.

Coming up, we'll begin a look at the debate that went on in Capitol Hill today over civil liberties and national security. We'll hear from Senator Arlen Specter, coming up a little later, the attorney general. Much more ahead on NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Probably no issue has been as controversial over the last three months as the president's order creating military tribunals for dealing with suspected terrorists, or those who helped them.

Today, Former President Jimmy Carter added his voice to those criticizing the plan, saying in a speech in San Diego that it might damage America's reputation as a champion of human rights around the world. In Washington, the Attorney General John Ashcroft faced members of the Senate judiciary committee.

He had a harsh response to some critics, saying they give aid to America's enemies, to the terrorists. And you'll hear from the attorney general in a moment.

But first, a conversation with Senator Arlen Specter, a Republican, a supporter of the president's, and a man with some concerns about how far the administration is reaching in all of this. I talked with the senator earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Senator Specter, you wrote the other day that you weren't exactly sure that the president in fact had the authority to, on his own, issue the executive order on military tribunals. Do you still feel that way?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: The president has authority delegated by the Congress. The Congress has, under the Constitution, the authority to establish military tribunals. But the statute provides that the rules of law and evidence will be those used in United States district courts, unless the president makes a showing that it is impracticable.

And the judiciary committee oversight hearings are really being directed at issues such as the president's order, which says the person cannot go into any court, which is in flat contradiction of the Constitution.

Even in the espionage U-boat case, the Supreme Court of the United States took the case, because the Constitution says habeas corpus may be used, unless there is an invasion or a rebellion. And neither is the case here.

BROWN: Did the hearings today at all assuage your concerns?

SPECTER: We're moving in the right direction. Today I asked Attorney General Ashcroft about his regulation, which says that if an alien is released by the court, and then released by the appellate court, that the alien can still be detained indefinitely, just on the say-so of the attorney general. And I asked Attorney General Ashcroft what the standards were.

And his answer was not specific enough, so I asked him to put it in writing. And where I think we're heading on these hearings, is an illumination of the issues. And ultimately, I think we will get it worked out. The country is strongest when the president and the Congress act together.

And the president has to be the leader when we're at war. And we gave him tremendous power with the resolution we passed a few days after September 11th, and put $40 billion and gave him a new statute on terrorism. But the Congress does have some input, and the courts have to be included as well.

BROWN: One of the things I suspect you've heard -- I know I've heard it a lot -- is, look, the president says these tribunals are going to be used only against non-citizens. So what's the problem? They're not citizens of the United States, anyway. Senator, what's the problem?

SPECTER: Well, the people who are noncitizens, aliens, legal aliens, have very substantial rights, as interpreted by the Supreme Court of the United States, under the Constitution. And we have issues here. We want to do bring back terrorists from Spain, for example. But if the procedures are such that Spain thinks they're unfair, then Spain walks. You have an international effort. You have a coalition.

But I think it can all be worked out. We need to preserve the death penalty for people like Osama bin Laden. But in a military court, it's a unanimous verdict. I don't think that's a requirement that ought to be surrendered. And I think we will get it worked out.

BROWN: One of the things the attorney general has said is that critics are speaking too soon, that they're assuming the worst about their government, that these regulations and rules that would apply haven't even been written yet. Does he have a point there?

SPECTER: Well, the judiciary committee is raising questions. That is our job. Nobody has said that the attorney general has acted improperly. We want to know what his standards are. We have great respect for what the executive branch is doing. But our job is to see to it that the balance is maintained. Constitution requires a balance of security versus civil rights. And we have a role to play in that.

BROWN: A final question, sir. We're both old enough to remember what it was like in the country during Vietnam. I'm wondering if you have any concern that, as this debate goes on and gets a little harsher -- it seems to me, at least -- with each week, that we aren't headed towards the kind of anger and divisiveness of that time.

SPECTER: We are not headed towards the anger and divisiveness of Vietnam, because we are absolutely unified in bringing the terrorists to justice, or as the president has said, bringing justice to the terrorists. We have no doubt about that. And military tribunals are sanctioned under our tradition and our heritage.

It is a question as to how we draw the balance. And we are putting the questions up, and I think there will be consultation with the Department of Defense. The Department of Justice was not involved in the president's order, and I think they have to be. They have the traditional role of understanding prosecutions and constitutional rights.

And there are lot of people around like Arlen Specter, who were prosecutors, D.A.s, who may be able to add to that as well, to have a unified front. We're not going back to Vietnam.

BROWN: Senator, it's always good to talk to you. Thanks for spending some time with us today.

SPECTER: Pleasure. Glad to do it. Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator Arlen Specter from Washington tonight.

Up next, we'll talk with the Attorney General John Ashcroft, as NEWSNIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Now the attorney general's turn. John Ashcroft got the job of attorney general after very bitter hearings. He has been the president's principle defender on these civil liberties questions, and his defense has grown stronger and his criticisms of the opposition more pointed each week. Today he suggested that some of the criticism is aiding the terrorists. When we talked earlier today, we started on that point.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

BROWN: Mr. Attorney General, did you mean to suggest before the Senate committee today that those who disagree with the administration's policies -- military tribunals, some of these other controversial questions -- are in fact aiding terrorism because they erode our national unity?

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I really don't. I mean to say that those who are fearmongers, who simply want to announce conclusions, who use scare tactics and are afraid of real discussion and don't provide a basis or an opportunity for the truth to be known -- that their work is counterproductive. It helps the other side and not America.

The kind of discussion we had today is the kind that I welcome with the committee. It provided a basis for the understanding which allows the committee now to concede that what the president is doing is constitutional. As a matter of fact, I think the committee understands that what the president is doing is his responsibility and his duty.

BROWN: A couple of questions. And I know in this area of military tribunals not all of the rules have been written yet. But according to the order we do know some things. One is that there is no right to appeal the outcome of one of these cases in a civilian court. Why is that a good thing?

ASHCROFT: Well, this is not a -- an adjudication of charges in the criminal law system. This is adjudication of war crimes, and war crimes and the charges relating to war crimes, don't belong in the civilian courts.

There are war crimes tribunals right now in various places of the world supported by the United States Congress, being run by the United Nations. Whether it's relating to atrocities committed in Bosnia, those war crimes -- tribunals and commissions are being heard in the Hague. Others relating to atrocities in Rwanda and Central Africa.

And the point is that there are two separate and distinct kinds of crimes. Traditional crimes in the civil society, and war crimes that take place by individuals who don't follow the rules of law regarding wars.

And one of the rules of law regarding wars is you don't target innocent civilians -- like the people in the World Trade Center towers -- and you don't take innocent hostages and murder them like the individuals who were murdered after being taken hostage on the planes.

And you resolve the war crimes issues in war crimes commissions. You resolve crimes that normally happen in a culture in the -- in the judicial system.

BROWN: And simple fairness doesn't require a right of appeal?

ASHCROFT: Well, there is no prohibition on a right of appeal. As a matter of fact, the president and the secretary of defense are both capable of correcting abuses in the system. And we simply can't at this time conclude that there won't be other appeals.

The president hasn't established a system. He has issued a military order that says to the secretary of defense, "I want you to develop a system."

And so we'll have to wait and see what the secretary of defense has done in terms of even how these will be configured and what all the processs are. But the fundamentals of the system are as strong or as fair -- as a matter of fact, fairer -- than most of the war crimes tribunals that are being supported around the world now.

The kind of evidence must be probative. It must have real value. That's consistent with other war crimes tribunals and other war crimes commissions. The kind of two-thirds majority indicated as a baseline in the president's order is a -- is a more demanding level of majority than is -- is currently prevalent in other settings where a simple majority is required.

So the president has set up a system that already has safeguards. But it charges the secretary of defense to create something that will be full and fair and provide a basis for resolving war crimes in the context of a nation at war with the procedural things that are appropriate, but with adequate protection so that president of the United States continues to have the ability to protect the lives of innocent American citizens.

BROWN: Senator Leahy last week on the program suggested that questions like this, the administration's plans for things precisely like a military tribunal came up when the antiterrorism bill was being dealt with in the Senate and in the Congress, and that the administration indicated it had no such plan. Is that your recollection as well?

ASHCROFT: My recollection is that the -- the chairman of the committee did write a letter to me following my appearance at the committee asking whether or not war crime tribunals or commissions were under consideration. At that time, I indicated to him some of the law relating to them and that I think I may have used the term they were on the table.

But the truth of matter is the things that I discuss with the president are priviledged matters, and I provide that information to the president. And my consultations with the president are not the subject of consultation with the Senate committee unless of couse the president decides to make those consultations public. BROWN: And a final question, sir. Can you explain why it is that it was not appropriate, in your view or the administration's view, to -- to bring this to Congress, to let it be debated before Congress and ultimately decided by the Congress?

ASHCROFT: Well, the -- the responsibility to wage war and to address the issues in a war is a responsibility accorded by the Constitution to the president of the United States. And the founders of our republic wisely understand that a war is not something that should be conducted by committee.

So when the president issued this order to set up the commission, it should be know that he issued it as commander in chief. And it's not an executive order, it's a military order. And it's designed to cause the military to do those things that are necessary for us to succeed in the war effort.

And making sure that those combatants who might perpetrate war crimes again us -- that they are held responsible for their war crimes -- is part of the responsibility that a president has to defend the United States and its innocent citizens. And failure to do so would in my judgment be a dereliction of the duty of the president.

BROWN: Mr. Attorney General, it's been a long day for you. We appreciate very much your time and we wish you a very good and safe holiday season.

ASHCROFT: Thank you.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BROWN: Attorney General John Ashcroft. We talked with him earlier today.

Coming up, an air force sergeant tells his first-hand account of his battle with the Taliban and about the Purple Heart that he received today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Daniel Petithory, Brian Prosser and Jefferson Donald Davis. You should know their names because they are Americans who died in Afghanistan. They died fighting America's war on terror.

The cruel irony of their death is that it was the result of an errant U.S. bomb does not detract from their service or their mission. And they began their last journey home today.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

HONOR GUARD PLACING CASKETS ON AIRPLANE

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BROWN: One of the things we've missed most over the last couple of months is the faces of men and women who are fighting this war. There are hundreds of U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

We hear about them all the time, stories of how they fought at the prison in Mazar-e Sharif so they could save the one American CIA agent inside. Stories about how they've been wounded trying to capture Osama Bin Laden.

Finally tonight, we get to meet one of them. One of the men who was hit and injured at Mazar, a man who carried his captain to safety, and earned today -- and wears tonight -- a Purple Heart.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

MIKE: Before we even rode up, there was gunshots going off everywhere. It's very fortunate that they're not the best shooters in the world, because the shots were just going everywhere. There were shots on the road leading towards the fort. And mortar rounds. You heard the mortar rounds breaking the walls.

BROWN: A little over a week ago, in a place most of us had never heard of before the war began, this man, a member of an Air Force special operations unit, was in the fight of his life.

MIKE: We were hugging the ground pretty -- pretty hard. But -- so the Northern Alliance guys were saying, this is not a good location. You know, they were pretty happy that the Americans were there and they didn't want -- they didn't want us to get hurt.

BROWN: His name is Mike. A staff sergeant. Comes from Connecticut. And that's all we can tell you about him. But for the first time on television, he is being allowed to tell what happened when the Taliban began an uprising at a fortress prison outside the city of Mazar-e Sharif.

MIKE: Our main role was to go in and pull out the -- the CIA agent that might be -- might be possibly killed. So there was no way to get him out without the -- with all the Taliban forces securing the south side. And -- but the mortar rounds were being adjusted to our position. It was -- it was evident that we were going to have to call close air support or -- or else, you know, we might not make it out of there.

BROWN: That instant decision in the chaos of combat nearly proved fatal, because the resulting fire missed its intended target.

MIKE: We had called in a bird, gave him some information. And the next thing you know it, I was flying through the air. I just got tossed probably about a 100 feet. Everything went brown. I hit the ground.

BROWN: And he knew right away, he says, that he'd been hit.

MIKE: I was laying there, I had to make sure that I had all my body parts. I wiggled my fingers, wiggled my toes andd I checked my face to see if I was missing my ears or nose or whatever.

BROWN: His eardrums were shattered. He was bloodied, and yet he was a lucky one. A special forces officer -- a captain -- was far more badly hurt.

MIKE: He was laying right out in the open. Shots were -- he could have been -- shots were still flying through the air. And where he was, was probably one of the worst spots. So we knew we couldn't -- we knew we had to go and grab him.

BROWN: And grab him they did, the sergeant says. And took him to safety.

MIKE: We were very fortunate. And I thank God that we're alive. It was a true miracle that all five of us are alive.

BROWN: The Purple Heart he wears now is bittersweet, he says. It's an award you get because you've been hurt. But it's a medal he will take back into combat if he is asked.

MIKE: My brothers are fighting in this war. And to be home watching that, it's just -- I want to be there with them. You know, they're doing a -- they're doing an awesome job.

Special tactics, the -- the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) rescue in there, the combat controllers, the combat weathermen. It's -- it's just they're doing such an awesome job, and to be here watching it -- and I'd like to be there with them.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BROWN: Staff Sergeant Mike.

Up next, how do you get CNN in Kabul? How do you get any TV in Afghanistan? We'll answer the question in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A lot of things got taken out and dusted off when the Taliban left Kabul. Razors, school books, radios. TV sets often had to be buried in yards. They were banned altogether, TV.

These days, though, it is still hard to watch TV when there is nothing much to see. The option is satellite TV, if only you had a dish. Or in the case of Kabul today, a little imagination. Here's CNN's Jason Bellini.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sitting on their neighbor's sofa, Abdul and Friman see what they're missing. They don't have satellite TV of their own. They're like many other Afghans. They can't afford it but also can't look away. Some who should only windowshop find a way to purchase the freedom the Taliban denied them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) They cannot do anything but they were buyings things, TVs, radios for enjoyment.

BELLINI: The item most in demand? Digital satellite receivers. The most powerful link you can buy to the brave new world. Right here, all that high-tech meets low tech. All around the city, we see people making these satellite dishes -- to go with the $200 receivers -- out of tin cans and scrap metal.

I wanted to meet people who's bought them, to find out whether they really work and to see how they're changing Afghans' lives.

My satellite scavenger search took me first to Nassir's house. His family bought one just a week ago.

You weren't able to watch TV before you got this?

NASSIR: No.

BELLINI: It's not working at the moment, though. No electricity. But he and his brothers say when the power is on, they're glued to the TV.

What's your favorite cartoon?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

NASSIR: Mouse and cat.

BELLINI: Mouse and cat? That's Tom and Jerry. Of course. All right. Hand me the camera.

Up on the roof, the family has a second dish. More dishes mean more channels.

Has it changed what what you do everyday?

"During the Taliban we had lots of time to play with toys," Jial tells me. "Now we've got TV. We've got freedom."

The camera is coming down. You ready? There you go. You got it?

I went next to an apartment complex. The people here are less wealthy than the ones I met before. Still, several balconies sprout dishes.

We can come up? OK.

Saleyha says she is sorry to disappoint me, but she has no idea how to turn on the family TV. They got the dish last week. Her daughter knows how to work it, and the picture is not bad. Saleyha tells me that a few of her neighbors already asked if they could run a line to her dish.

She's not particularly concerned about the images her children might see on TV. She says, "the Westerners on TV can do whatever they want. We Afghans will still do as we want."

Her neighbor, Friman, says he wishes his parents would get satellite TV as well. Some of the other kids have it, and talk about TV shows all the time.

Abdulaziz, another neighbor, dropped by to watch.

If you had $200 right now, is that what you would buy?

ABDULAZIZ: "I'd go to the bazaar immediately and get this," he answers. "Then I could sit like this all the time."

It's not only about entertainment. Freedom is more fully realized here with a TV. Jason Bellini. CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BROWN: That is remarkable. Just to repeat what that young boy said, "We've got TV. We've got freedom." We like that kid, don't we.

Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, the importance of exercising your right to vote. We're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally tonight, further proof if any were needed that this program will beat any good idea to death -- actually, any bad idea, for that matter.

Last night, you may recall, I mentioned the online poll being done by the "Atlanta Journal-Constitution" web site which asked readers to vote for the sexiest CNN anchor.

I was a little miffed, OK? Because my name was not included even as a possible choice. Larry was. I wasn't. Now in mentioning this, some of you thought that perhaps I was suggesting that you take it upon yourselves to right this wrong and e-mail these guys.

Now, you know me. Would I do that? OK, I would. So today when we looked at the web site we found a couple of things of interest. First, on the home page, over on the right, there I am. You can see me there. And then you jump to a page where you can cast your vote. This is yes or no vote on me. Essentially, it's me against the entire field. Not really fair, but the results are encouraging.

There's also a link to your comments. And I tell you now, they did not do that with Bill Hemmer, OK? So we were pretty -- feeling pretty swell until we found the big poll page. The official page. And I'm still not there.

Hemmer is killing everybody in this. John King is losing to Larry, however. Now there is some evidence -- I've got to be honest here -- that Hemmer is voting for himself. A lot. I can assure you that no one on the NEWSNIGHT staff would do such a thing. Well, no one except for Molly Levinson, my assistant. She's voted 47 times. But that's part of her job.

Now, here's the problem. The reporter on this, Richard Eldridge, called us today begging you to stop flooding his e-mail. I don't know. We report, you decide. You guys are wonderful, and it was fun here today. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00.

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