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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Taliban Surrenders Kandahar; Lessons Learned From Pearl Harbor; Interview With Paul Tibbetts, Stephen Ambrose

Aired December 07, 2001 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. Well, here's the truth for you. We hoped around here today it would be a slow news day so we could do the program we really wanted to do this Friday night. And it is just slow enough.

We wanted and we will spend a fair amount of time on the attack on Pearl Harbor 60 years ago today. We probably would have done this even if there hadn't been a September 11, but it is irresistible because of it. In 1941 the United States was a divided country. It wasn't sure it wanted to be a superpower. Wasn't sure it wanted to be all that engaged in the world beyond its borders.

Sixty years later, the country is the world's lone superpower, but has come to understand that even superpowers are vulnerable. Sixty years ago we resisted the idea that the world might need American might to save it from one of the century's greatest evils. Today we understand that one evil can replace another, and that only a superpower has the might to take it on.

Sixty years ago, much of the world looked at the United States as a beacon of hope and freedom. It still does, and the country still is. A lot has changed in 60 years, but not that. That has stayed exactly the same.

Two-thousand four-hundred and three Americans died on that Sunday morning in 1941, most of them, servicemen. And today there was a sunrise service at Pearl Harbor at exactly 7:55 in the morning.

It was a tribute played out all over the world, including Norfolk, Virginia. President Bush there telling sailors aboard the USS Enterprise that they have been commissioned by history to face freedom's enemies.

A dramatic development tonight in the fight against those enemies. The Taliban gives up Kandahar, but where have they gone, and where is Mullah Mohammed Omar? And where is bin Laden? No answers to that yet.

And back to where America's new war started: Ground Zero. A tree lighting there, like no other.

It is an odd combination of news and history tonight, and I think you'll like the change of pace. We'll talk with historian Steven Ambrose, along with the man who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. We'll pay a visit to the most infamous soccer stadium in the world, the place where the Taliban used for public executions. It's a soccer field, again.

And on a much, much less serious note, Julia, if you're watching, I apologize, but there's a mystery guest tonight. It's been more than a week since the staff watched me squirm, and they feel I need a bit of a comeuppance. After all, we now know who won the real poll in the Atlanta paper -- the fair poll, not the bogus one. And let's just say it was a triumph for democracy. Or perhaps it proved that whining works.

Julia and the rest of you, you're going to have to wait for that.

First, the truly important stuff. We begin with our whip around the world, which starts at the Pentagon. CNN's Bob Franken tonight. Bob, a headline from you, please.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we have today is the tale of a new conference in two cities. But it was still a news conference, like all news conferences: many questions, not very many answers. But the non-answers oftentimes were very telling -- Aaron.

BROWN: Bob, back to you shortly. Now to the Afghanistan- Pakistan border, the latest on what's happening in Kandahar and the region. CNN's Nic Robertson, there. Nic, the headline from you, please.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the Taliban flee town and Kandahar and Spin Boldak. In some places, they hand in their weapons. Widespread looting replaces their departure. Tribal forces move in and the waving of red, green and black flags, symbolizing support for the former exiled king, Zahir Shah.

BROWN: Nic, back with you shortly. The latest on the hunt for bin Laden. CNN's Ben Wedeman is in the Tora Bora region of the country. Ben, a headline, please.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron. A combination of intense U.S. airstrikes, pressured by eastern alliance fighters, as well as involvement by U.S. special forces is tightening the noose on the lair of Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda network.

BROWN: Ben, we'll be back with you. We'll be back with all of you shortly.

We being with the day's developments in Kandahar. Last night it was a deal in the making. Tonight it appears that all the pieces are in place. The Taliban have fled Kandahar. The allies have moved in. But as you heard, there are reports of chaos, looting, problems. And here's another problem: the U.S. does not know -- or if it does, at least it's not saying -- where the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar, is.

CNN's Bob Franken begins our coverage from the Pentagon. Bob, good evening to you again. FRANKEN: Good evening, Aaron.

And the term "the fog of war" tonight could have been used to describe the quality of the answers we got at a news conference, in spite of the fact that it was very high-tech.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GENERAL TOM FRANKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND COMMANDER: It's great to be with you. And it's great to be by video teleconference with our Pentagon press corps.

FRANKEN (voice-over): General Tommy Franks, the commander in chief of Central Command, was at home in Tampa. But in both locations, the main question was: where is Omar? Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban supreme leader.

FRANKS: I don't think I would say that Mullah Omar has vanished.

FRANKEN: But Omar is widely reported to have done exactly that -- to have vanished in the confusion, while opposition forces moved into Kandahar. Did General Franks really know?

FRANKS: We simply do not know where he is right now, but that does not lead me to believe that he's vanished, if that makes sense to you.

FRANKEN: General Franks acknowledged that U.S. Marines were fighting Taliban forces, who were escaping with their weapons.

FRANKS: In an operational sense, we are blocking in some cases from the air. We are blocking in some cases with direct fires from the ground.

FRANKEN: General Franks said he would certainly not rule out the Marines going into Kandahar. U.S. ground troops, who first overran what is now the Marines' base Camp Rhino south of Kandahar in October, have come home in December. The return of the Army ranger contingent to Fort Benning, Georgia, should not be considered, said General Franks, a sign at all that the U.S. is about to reduce its force in Afghanistan any time soon.

There's still the battle at Tora Bora, for instance. U.S. special operations units assisting opposition troops in their assault on the mountain fortress, which just might be the hideout for Osama bin Laden. And General Franks said he did not yet have a clear sense of comfort that there is stability in Kandahar.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And there are many pockets of resistance in Afghanistan, but defense officials say they do not know exactly where the Taliban and al Qaeda combatants are, including their leaders, Omar and bin Laden -- Aaron.

BROWN: Does the Pentagon feel like the rug has been pulled out from under them by the forces, the allied forces, the Afghani force in Kandahar?

FRANKEN: Well, they do, and they're trying to stuff the rug back -- twice now. Yesterday by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and today by General Franks, there were threats -- threats. Very obvious threats made to the opposition forces, that if they didn't get back into the game the way the United States wanted them to, there was the possibility that the U.S. could withdraw all the support that has been vital to the opposition forces' success.

BROWN: Bob, thank you. Bob Franken at the Pentagon. It's nice to see you back on the night shift. Have a good weekend.

Kandahar was not the only Taliban-controlled city to give up. Spin Boldak, which is quite close to the border with Pakistan, also handed over to anti-Taliban tribesmen the keys to the city, if you will. If memory serves me, it was less than two weeks ago that Taliban leaders told our reporter there that they would fight to the bitter end.

The reporter was CNN's Nic Robertson, and Nic is just across the border in Chaman, Pakistan. It is morning there. So, Nic, good morning to you.

ROBERTSON: Yes, Aaron, the new tribal commanders in the border town of Spin Boldak told us when we crossed in there -- we were the first western reporters to go in as the Taliban left -- they told us that Commander Hamid Karzai and his other fighters handed in his weapon and left town.

We saw a lot of armed men on the streets there when we went in. They were the new rulers of Spin Boldak, the tribal fighters from the Achackzai tribe. The town there has now been divided between three different tribes. This was a sort of sense of chaos and a little confusion, but there was still calm. And we were told by the tribal leaders there that there had been no looting in Spin Boldak, as there had been in Kandahar.

Those tribal commanders also told us that they were keen for revenge against the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar. They said they wanted to see him brought to justice, for inviting and having terrorists inside the country and bringing so much misery. And as for Arab al Qaeda fighters, they said they want to arrest those people, too, and bring them to international justice -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, you've been in the country more than anyone on our staff, certainly, over the last couple of months. Are you surprised by any of the reports of chaos, the looting? "Anarchy" may be too strong, but at least what we're hearing out of Kandahar and other parts of the country?

ROBERTSON: This is very much a period of transition. The Taliban negotiated the surrender of Kandahar with the head of the new interim government. But the people that came in to take control, the ones the Taliban handed over the reins of control of Kandahar to, there's a former mujahideen commander, Mullah Naqib. Now, he has a lot of fighters at his disposal. But some of the other elements that are also moving into Kandahar to control the city there are from other tribes. We're told they were coming in from the north of the city and from the southeast of the city, and other areas as well. We were told that one of those commanders, who had been fighting only a few days before for control of Kandahar Airport, had moved into the city, moved into the governor's building, and had promptly announced himself as the new governor of Kandahar.

So clearly, amongst the tribal elements on the ground, there is a jockeying for position. People are sort of trying to get back to the pre-Taliban days. Trying to get back to the positions of power they had then -- the positions of influence. So there's likely to be a period of jockeying for power.

We don't know how that will play out. The interim government is supposed to get up and running in a few weeks time. Maybe. Maybe that will help sort out those kind of power struggles on the ground. But it goes down to a very, very local level. Spin Boldak, just across the border here, is a town of several thousand people. There are three different tribes now who are controlling different parts of it.

We really have to see how these sort of miniature power struggles, if you will, play out -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. That's one of the reasons why the international community would like to see an international peacekeeping force in there, or security force. Thank you, Nic. Have a good weekend.

The collapse of the Taliban in Kandahar came in no small part because of extreme pressure being brought to bear by U.S. forces, not only from the air, but on the ground. The Marine base known as Camp Rhino continues to be the staging ground for ground operations, and we are joined there tonight by the pool reporter.

Tonight the pool reporter is Rick Leventhal. Rick, on the videophone, good morning.

RICK LEVENTHAL, POOL REPORTER: Good morning, Aaron. The sun has risen now over Camp ,Rhino which is home to more than 1,300 Marines and some special forces, in a group known as Task Force 58. The night was quiet, unlike the night before when we had a lot of action here. Last night was relatively quiet, except for some C-130 and C-17 cargo planes bringing yet supplies to the Marines here, playing a much more active role now in this ongoing war on terror.

Yesterday we saw some of the fighting positions that have been staked out by Marines encircling this base. And we saw some of their flying fire power in action, as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): A cobra attack helicopter takes off from the desert airstrip alongside Camp Rhino, in search of a possible enemy convoy in the area. Heavily-armed fast attack vehicles join the hunt, but find no threat.

Inside and outside the base walls, U.S. Marines are on high alert, especially after Thursday night, when enemy forces, in vehicles and on foot, were spotted probing the camp's perimeter in more than one location. Marines responded with illumination rounds, mortars and automatic grenade launchers, lighting up the night sky dozens of times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a lot of adrenalin going on in here. Everybody is keeping warm from the cold, that's for sure.

LEVENTHAL: During a second wave of mortar rounds late Thursday, a Marine huey helicopter crashed and burned on the runway, injuring two men slightly and destroying the aircraft. The crash is under investigation, but a spokesman says it's 99 percent certain the chopper was not shot down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're thinking, like, damn, that's one of ours.

LEVENTHAL: And the Marines from Task Force 58 have now carried out the first offensive action since seizing this compound November 25, killing seven enemy fighters and destroying three vehicles along roads near Kandahar.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEVENTHAL: Well, we asked the Marines for further details about that shooting, but as a matter of policy, they will not discuss specifics of their rules of engagement when encountering enemy forces, except to say that the rules are designed to ensure Marine success in their mission. And, Aaron, those missions continue in and around this base in southern Afghanistan.

With the Marines, I'm Rick Leventhal.

BROWN: Rick, a quick question before we lose you. The last two days have changed, I would imagine, the feel of the place. There was those incidents two nights ago in the helicopter, and now this case where they were actually out shooting at the enemy. Is it much more tense there these days than it had been?

LEVENTHAL: Well, things are certainly on a heightened state of alert. And in fact, yesterday afternoon there was another incident when a convoy of vehicles was apparently spotted on the outskirts of this camp. Marines rushed to the wall and those attack helicopters took off, and some heavy fighting vehicles also searched the desert as well.

This is a regular occurrence now over the past couple of days. And we were expecting more overnight, but it didn't happen, which is good news. The enemy has been apparently dissuaded from testing the perimeter, at least for now. But certainly, everyone in here is aware that there's a war going on just outside this camp, and they are ready.

BROWN: Rick, thank you. Be safe out there. Rick Leventhal, the pool reporter at Camp Rhino, joining us tonight.

The hardest nut to crack in all of Afghanistan lays to the east of that Marine base, and to the north, in the mountains and the border between the country and Pakistan. The tunnel complexes in that area, known as Tora Bora, are believed to hide Osama bin Laden. And at the very least, they're hiding thousands of Arab fighters, with no way out and no particular reason to surrender.

CNN's Ben Wedeman is there. Ben, good morning to you.

WEDEMAN: Yes, good morning, Aaron. It was a very intense night of bombing here, following one of the most intense days of bombing in this area since the campaign in this region began.

This morning at about 5:00 local time -- that's about two and half hours ago -- we were shaken awake by a loud explosion. B-52s have been flying overhead since sunrise, essentially. And yesterday I saw a very large ball of fire coming from the mountains behind me. So certainly, the focus of the U.S. air campaign today appears to be these mountains, the Tora Bora mountains.

Also, we're hearing from eastern alliance commanders, that they are preparing to make a push into those mountains. But they are under no illusions that this is going to be easy. It's very rugged territory up there. It appears the al Qaeda fighters do have the commanding heights.

Yesterday we were up in the front lines and some mortar shells started to come in very nearby to us, and also to the eastern alliance fighters. And that seemed to be enough for them to send them back about half a kilometer. So -- also, the eastern alliance commanders are saying they're expecting to push forward, either today or the next day.

That comes at the same time that yesterday we saw through a telephoto lens, some U.S. special forces, or some sort of special forces, moving in the direction of the mountains with Afghan guides and equipment loaded on the back of donkeys. So certainly, we expect a good deal of action in this area today -- Aaron.

BROWN: That is a great shot. I know you can't see it. That's a fabulous shot of those guys working their way up the mountain.

What kind of tanks, or heavy artillery, do the eastern alliance forces have to bring to bear on whoever is in those mountains?

WEDEMAN: Well, they're essentially using what the Northern Alliance was using: T-55 tanks, antiquated Soviet aircraft guns, that they're using, basically for firing into the hills. AK-47s. No heavy weaponry, really, that could be described as new. It's all pretty ancient, by U.S. standards.

But the people they're fighting aren't very well-equipped either, in terms of equipment. They've got 82 millimeter mortars. They do have some artillery, but it hasn't been used to much extent here. But we're basically fighting a war here in the 1970's with, of course, the exception of the U.S. air campaign -- Aaron.

BROWN: Pretty significant exception. Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman in Tora Bora. We continue to monitor the activity there.

Guys, before we go to break, let's just -- if we can just see that piece of video again. Again, this was shot with a telephoto lens of some sort. These are special ops guys, Americans, working their way -- with Afghani guides, I gather -- working their way up the mountains.

A lot of the Americans' role in this has been to be spotters for American air support coming in. Not precisely clear what these guys are up to, but they are there, aren't they? And look how desolate it all is.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: a killing field no more, in Kabul. The soccer stadium, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are victories in war, strategic ones you can plot on a map. And then there are victories like the one we're about to show you, that affect average people doing average things. Those of you with us several months ago might remember the soccer stadium in Kabul. In the documentary "Beneath the Veil," Saira Shah filmed the executions that had replaced the soccer games there.

Public executions were the norm in Taliban Afghanistan. But that was then, and this is now -- reported by CNN's Harris Whitbeck.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Wednesday afternoon at Kabul's national stadium, a soccer match between the top two local teams, well under way -- and drawing quite a crowd. The crowd and the players seem pleased to be here, and pleased to be at a game they know won't be interrupted for the administration of Taliban justice.

"No, no, I couldn't bear to watch it," says Sido Jhu (ph), a football player who, on at least three occasions, had to stand by as Taliban police led convicted thieves to the field, then surgically amputated their hands or feet.

(on camera): A routine, friendly football match like this one, interrupted, and turned into one of the grizzliest expressions of the Taliban's interpretation of Islam. Stadium officials say dozens were executed, and hundreds more punished on the soccer field by the Taliban. Doing it in public was a way of warning the population of the price of breaking the law. So was leaving the evidence in sight.

This football coach showed me the exact spot where the punishments took place: center field, where everyone could see.

"One morning I came out here and there was a big barrel on the field," he says. "It was filled with amputated hands and feet. The teenage players out for morning practice were so upset they could not continue playing."

How then, to erase the grizzly memories from a place built for sportsmanship? "We have to get support for a sports program," he says, "have resources to train our players, and to send our young people abroad to see how other sportsmen in the world play. Because for five years," he says, "my players were in darkness."

The new sports authorities have begun by erasing the official name of the Taliban regime from the stadium wall. Erasing the memory of what happened inside will likely take much longer.

Harris Whitbeck, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: When we come back on NEWSNIGHT: the heroes of December 7 remembered around the world. We continue on a Friday night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Much of the rest of the program tonight will center around Pearl Harbor, 60 years ago. We have some wonderful pieces of history to show you, some guests we think will help bring that history to light. A piece of video you've heard a lot about. You may not have seen, but even if you had, it is worth seeing again.

But before all that, a quick look at the day today, literally, from sea to shining sea. Just after sunrise at the place where this all began, that is now the home of the United States Pacific fleet -- a simple white memorial straddling the sunken battleship, the Arizona -- the tomb for nearly 1,200 sailors who died on the ship in the Japanese attack that Sunday morning.

Sixty years later, the guns fired not in anger, but to honor all those who died in those waves of Japanese attacks.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): From the mournful sound of taps played at Arlington National Cemetery, to a moving chorus of "America the Beautiful" sung in Texas, to the sounds of silence in Oahu, the nation today commemorated the 60th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, an anniversary echoed by the events of September 11.

ADM. VERN CLARK, CHIEF NAVAL OPERATIONS: We are at war with enemies who hate freedom and democracy. They want a society of coercion. They want a political order of force. Their brand of tyranny is willing to resort to terror and the slaughter of innocents. The Americans of 1941 answered the call, and today Americans are doing so again. It's our turn.

(APPLAUSE)

BROWN: Two presidents spoke at two different locations. President Bush went to the aircraft carrier Enterprise, anchored in Norfolk, Virginia. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What happened at Pearl Harbor was the start of a long and terrible war for America. Yet out of that surprise attack grew a steadfast resolve that made America freedom's defender. And that mission, our great calling, continues to this hour.

BROWN: And his father spoke in New Orleans at the opening of the Pacific wing of the D-Day museum.

GEORGE BUSH SR., FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On September 11, our nation suffered another surprise attack. And today we are in a different war, but I think that the duty on our country still prevails.

(APPLAUSE)

BROWN: For historians, today was a chance to remind everyone just how savage global war can be.

STEPHEN AMBROSE, HISTORIAN: It was the worst war that ever was. World War II in Europe involved more people, but it lacked the ferocity and hatred that characterized the second world war in the Pacific.

BROWN: There were some unlikely places for remembrances, here in Baltimore, for example. This ship, still in the water, is the only ship still in the water from that horrible day in December of '41. But the focus, of course, was far to the west. It was a sun-splashed morning in Hawaii, 60 years to the day of the Japanese attack, the survivors, who are now every year, saluting again their fallen comrades.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up next, thousands died on that December morning, but thousands others fought their way to survival. And it's a survivor story when NEWSNIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: For anyone in New York on September 11, there are always the usual questions: Where were you? What did you see? Did you know anyone who died?

The same questions can go to the survivors, the heroes of December 7. One of them recalled the terror of that day with the kind of extraordinary detail that makes you realize six decades does not erase the memory for those who lived through it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSSELL J. MCCURDY, PEARL HARBOR SURVIVOR: My name is Russell J. McCurdy. I was a private first class in the Marine Corp. I was stationed in the Marine detachment aboard the USS Arizona at Pearl Harbor. I had liberty that day, and I felt a thump on the side of the ship, like something had hit. They sounded air raid. Planes were coming in. And as the torpedo planes pulled away from dropping their torpedoes, they would machine-gun their path as they gained elevation.

My lieutenant, Lieutenant Simonson, was two men ahead of me on the ladder. He had stepped off on the searchlight platform. He had no cover, no protection. So, machine guns got him from the back, and he also was hit by debris from that bomb, and he died instantly.

Shortly after that, then, about 10 -- between 10 and 12 minutes after 8:00, a bomb went down, a big armor-piercing bomb went down up near turret two, the forward part of the ship. It penetrated several decks, exploded all the ammunition that was in that part of the ship. All the powder room blew up. They could hear that explosion for nearly seven miles, and some people have reported that they even felt the air move at least five miles away.

When we reached the deck, first coming down, we came down and got off at the boat deck. And there was men all burned and not able to move. All their clothes burned off. And then someone would go down onto the quarter deck and jump in the water. I couldn't hear for two weeks after that explosion. But I visualized, when they -- those men jumped in the water, I thought I would could hear the water sizzling. But it was and. It was just my imagination.

You see these bombs come down that missed the ships and hit in the water. One of them was within 50 feet, a big bomb. It moved the meat on your body when you're swimming. But every time you look up and you see those bombs coming, every one looks like it's going to hit you.

I don't know what the recovery would be. You think of it every day. And naturally, we have trained in the service to withstand some of those types of actions and explosions and whatever, and I just think of it occasionally nearly every day I get up.

When you go aboard that memorial and you walk through, and in the calm day you can see the water and see our ship down there. Then you walk in the memorial part, where all those names are on there. And naturally, you start thinking about them, that they didn't have a life like we've had, and it's hard to stand there and to talk to people and look at those names, because we can think back. Those were our buddies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT next, the 32nd president of the United States takes his nation into war.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It was early in the afternoon Washington time 60 years ago today that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt got a phone call from his secretary of war, Henry Stimson. As photographers at Pearl Harbor began taking pictures of the wreckage, the awful devastation, the president began drafting a speech in his head, a speech to ask Congress for a declaration of war.

Before delivering the speech the next day, he would revise his original phrase, which was "a date which will live in world history." The date and the speech left an indelible mark on the country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yesterday December 7, 1941, a date which will live in infamy, United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan. The United States was at peace with that nation and, after solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific. Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our secretary of state a formal reply to a recent American message.

Japan has therefore undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: President Roosevelt won unanimous support from the Senate to declare war and but one dissenting vote in the House. What began in December of '41 ended in August of 1945, Japan surrendering days after the Enola Gay dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima.

Joining us now from New Orleans to talk about the war, and this war too, the man who commanded the Enola Gay, General Paul Tibbetts; and historian Stephen Ambrose, the founder of the National D-Day Museum.

Good evening to both of you. It's nice to see you.

General Tibbetts, I'm sure you've been asked this a lot, I apologize therefore. But do you think about the day that you dropped the bomb a lot if you're not asked about it?

GEN. PAUL TIBBETTS, COMMANDER, ENOLA GAY: I do think about it and I have absolutely no reservations. I think it was done at the right time. It needed to be done at the right time because it saved more lives than it took, regardless of what anybody says.

BROWN: And when it was going on, did you think this is going to be an incredible moment in history or was it just an important day at the office?

TIBBETTS: It was another day and another event. I'd been fighting over in Europe. I had been working in the states here with airplanes to get them ready, the B-29s, and I got this assignment. And all I can say was it was a routine day. I had a target and I was going to get it.

BROWN: But you knew the weapon you were dropping was hardly routine?

TIBBETTS: I had quite a bit of information on that, having talked to Dr. Oppenheimer a couple of times about it. He told me how powerful it would be, and his explanation was based on their calculations, it would be the equivalent of 20,000 tons of TNT. I had never seen one ton, I had never seen one pound of TNT explode. But I said that is going to be a damn big bang.

BROWN: I bet you were glad to get it out of the plane then.

TIBBETTS: Well, I was glad to get it on the target.

BROWN: I bet you were.

Professor Ambrose, a couple of things. Parallels between 1941 America and the year 2001 America.

STEPHEN AMBROSE, HISTORIAN: Well, in December 6, 1941 we were a badly divided country over the most momentous issue of the 20th century: should America get into this war or not? And we were badly divided on that.

On September 10, 2001 we were a country that was divided. We had voted 50/50 for the next president. We were arguing over the level of taxation. We were arguing over what to do with the Social Security surplus and so on. In both cases, what's happened at Pearl Harbor, what happened in New York and at the Pentagon brought this country together. And we all learned something that we need never have forgotten which is how much the United States yearns for a feeling of unity. And we got that feeling on December 7 and we got that feeling again on September 11.

BROWN: And how long after the war ended did that feeling start to dissipate?

AMBROSE: That's been a long time since the second World War ended. And it dissipated not immediately by any means. But 1946 did see more strikes by workers than any other year in American history. So I guess in a way, right there you have got it. In 1946, we were already forgetting that feeling of unity, that sense of we are all in this together and everybody is out going after their own thing.

BROWN: You said earlier that while the war in Europe was bigger, that the war in the Pacific was badder (sic) in a sense, more vicious. Why is that?

AMBROSE: The racial hatred. In Germany, France, in the European theater, one-third of the American troops were German-American by origin. It was cousins fighting cousins. And there's was a viciousness for sure. And if you got killed in Europe, it was the same as getting killed in the Pacific, of course, absolutely.

But in the Pacific, the racial hatred was so out of sight on both sides. The Japanese were the purest racists except for Hitler and almost equal to Hitler in the world. And the Americans' hatred for Japan knew no bounds. And that made the war in the Pacific the worst war that ever was.

BROWN: You historians understandably like some time before you reach these sorts of conclusions. But let me ask you, if I may, do you think that history will put September 11 alongside December 7?

AMBROSE: It certainly had that effect to this point. Now, I don't know, we don't any of us know what is going to happen next. We don't know how the war against terrorism is going to proceed and if we're going to be able to be victorious or if it's going to be long, drawn out and continuous. And that is all going to shape how we feel about September 11.

December 7, 1941, four years later, the Germans surrendered unconditionally. The Japanese surrendered unconditionally and that was the end of it. That's not going to happen this time. This is a different kind of a war. We're not going to have parades down Fifth Avenue celebrating the victory here, it won't be.

BROWN: We'll leave it to the next generation of historians to write that.

AMBROSE: That's right.

BROWN: Professor Ambrose, nice to talk with you. General Tibbetts, the same, thanks for spending part of your Friday with us. Thank you.

And when we come up, oh no, it's time for the surprise guest. That little thing is back. I think I'm ready from him or her or it or whatever. We'll find out in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK, it's been a whole week, a little more since the producers set off an e-mail riot for the mystery guest they sprung on me that night. Those of you who were with us will recall it was Santa. Many of you liked it, a lot of you did not. Julia hated it. No one seemed neutral on Santa.

Anyway, breaking from his normal style and tradition, my friend and producer David Bohrman (ph) has not beaten this idea into the ground and run it every night, but he hasn't forgotten it either. So in a moment they will put a page in front of me with the name of tonight's surprise guest. Until the do I have absolutely no idea who I'm about to meet.

Here we go. In our first, our mystery guest joins us not from New York but from Atlanta. His name may be familiar to some of you. Since Jay Croft is the editor of the online "Living" section at the "Atlanta Constitution" Web site, and as such is the brains behind the story, "CNN's Sexiest Anchor," the man who left me out of the poll. And here's Mr. Croft. You got a nerve, don't you?

JAY CROFT, "ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION": Well, so do you, I might say.

BROWN: Pardon?

CROFT: So do you.

BROWN: Now, what would possibly make you say that I have a nerve? What did I do here?

CROFT: Well, you went on national television and asked people to assert your sex appeal.

BROWN: No, no, I didn't ask them to assert my sex appeal. Thank you very much. Well, tell me what it's been like down there.

CROFT: It's been bedlam. It's been mayhem. Please ask your people to stop e-mailing us. I brought this mock front page that one of our folks did up for you. I believe there is a graphic of it. There you go. Yeah, so that's my peace offering. I offer that in the hope we can stop the e-mail assault.

BROWN: I will -- not that honestly I have that much control over the people who watch this program, but I didn't know they were going to do this in the first place exactly. Although I thought they might. But yes, they can stop now. Now, unless -- is the poll still running?

CROFT: Yeah, we have two polls up. One is the original poll asking folks who's the sexiest man on CNN, and that's the one that didn't include you. And then we put one up after all this started yesterday, which asks if you, in fact, are the sexiest man on CNN, and...

BROWN: And how is that one going, Jay?

CROFT: I think it's going pretty well in your favor there. You're doing all right.

BROWN: I am?

CROFT: You're doing -- last time I looked, it was about 75 percent of the respondents to that poll thought that you are, in fact, CNN's sexiest man.

BROWN: So, having now thought about it for a couple of days, you kind of wish you put me in the first one, don't you?

CROFT: Well, I will say this: Clearly, the people have spoken on this issue, and if we revisit this topic again maybe next year when the next "People" magazine issue comes out, we will keep it in mind, Aaron.

BROWN: I would appreciate that. Don't go away yet. I got a couple of other things on this. You know, we mentioned yesterday that we -- because when we looked at the big poll, our colleague Bill Hemmer -- who is like 20 years younger than I am, OK -- was getting a ton of votes. And so -- and we suspected maybe Bill was gilding the lily a little bit. So, we put a camera in his cubicle today to see -- we're not absolutely positive you can tell that that's Bill, but that's clearly his cubicle there, and someone was clicking an awful lot there. But nevertheless, it didn't help, did it?

CROFT: Well, no, and we can get some technical service people to look into that for us and see if we can get to the bottom of that there, but...

BROWN: Let me tell you guys seriously one thing. You guys have had a great good humor about all of this. Honestly, we didn't -- I was about to say honestly we didn't intend to cause a lot of trouble, but pretty clearly we did. And we did, and you guys have been terrific. Thank you.

CROFT: We enjoyed it.

BROWN: Thank you, Jay. Jay Croft at the "Atlanta Journal Constitution." I think one thing we can be sure of they won't be messing with us again. Actually, we can't be sure of that. Is that it, are we out? All right, we'll take a break, we'll come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: At both ends of the program, at the beginning and the end, this has been a fun and interesting and often provocative week. We appreciate your being with us for so much of it.

We leave you tonight in two hollowed places, Ground Zero in New York on this 7th of December, the work goes on, a Christmas tree there now. And Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. A live picture there, the flag at the memorial flying at half-staff.

Have a good weekend. We'll see you Monday at 10:00. Good night from NEWSNIGHT.

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