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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
The U.S. Government Nears a Decision on The New Bin Laden Tape
Aired December 10, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. Here's what's hard about writing this page each day. Some days, what's supposed to be important isn't. What's important today is the hunt for bin Laden, or that tape the government found and may yet allow the rest of us to see. That's what's important today.
But for us, it doesn't seem as important as a guy named Steve Allen, who died over the weekend. Steve was a CNN technician. His job in Afghanistan was to get the satellite feeds up so our reporters could feed their stories. The best stories in the world mean nothing if they don't get out, and Steve got them out.
He and his team were staying at a hotel in Jalalabad. Steve didn't show up for breakfast the other day. And when they checked his room, they found him dead, apparently from natural causes. There was nothing glamorous about Steve's job, no big salary. He wasn't out there show boating, no Geraldo stunts. Just set up the feed. Make the thing work somehow, anyhow. Get the story to Atlanta, and get it on the air.
I didn't know him. It's a big company and I've been here just a short time. But one of our guys died on the job, and nothing much else seems to matter to me tonight. We send our condolences to his family. We want them to know that tonight they are very much on all of our minds.
Now to all those other things. Tanks again bombarded the cave complex of Tora Bora, and today an opposition commander claimed al Qaeda fighters and Osama bin Laden had been forced into a one and a half square mile area. In Kabul, something that hasn't happened in more than a decade: U.S. forces entered the American embassy grounds, deciding whether it could be used for diplomacy again.
Back in the United States, taps, played twice today. This, Fort Campbell, Kentucky, where three green berets, killed by friendly fire, were remembered by hundreds today. And then again at Arlington National Cemetery.
Taps for the first American killed in combat in Afghanistan, honored and laid to rest. CIA officer, Michael Spann, whose wife ended a moving eulogy today by saying what his fellow Marines might have said, semi-phi -- always faithful. More of what she said is coming up in just a little while. Also, one man caught up in the FBI's dragnet who insists they have the wrong Mohammed Khan. In Pakistan, that's a name about as common as John Smith here.
And, yes, we have a Hanukkah story tonight. Though we'll be the first to admit, it probably will not leave you misty-eyed. You will meet the last two Jews of Kabul. But be warned. They feel like a Borschevelt (ph) act gone really wrong.
We begin, as always, with our whip around the world and the correspondents covering it, beginning with Christiane Amanpour, in Kandahar. Christiane, good morning to you.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Aaron.
And the tribal coalition that has taken Kandahar from the Taliban is consolidating its grip. This city is calm. In addition, the new forces here are releasing something like 1,000 or more political prisoners that the Taliban had been holding, some for as long as five years. And, some 200 Arab mercenaries, perhaps linked with al Qaeda, are still trying to fight a last stand. They are surrounded by tribal forces, but they are not giving in yet.
BROWN: Christiane, back with you in just a moment. Now the hunt for bin Laden. CNN's Ben Wedeman is in the Tora Bora region of the country. Ben, a headline from you, please.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron. Eastern Alliance commanders claim to have bottled up the al Qaeda fighters in a 1.5 square mile area, while U.S. bombers last night dropped their heaviest ordinance yet, using 15,000 pound bombs on a cave complex in the mountains behind me -- Aaron.
BROWN: Ben, thank you. And to the White House now. Lots of talk about the tape and whether you should see it. CNN's Kelly Wallace has the duty. She joins us from the lawn. Kelly, good evening to you.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, good evening to you. The headline from here, that tape is likely to be released to the public as early as Wednesday. President Bush saying tonight that tape reminds him of the murderer Osama bin Laden is. But before that tape, which is in Arabic, is released, U.S. officials say they are working very hard to ensure they have a 100 percent accurate translation, and that they are still trying to nail down exactly how that tape got into the hands of U.S. officials -- Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Wallace, the rest of you, back shortly. First, the war tonight.
Just about a month ago, Mazar-e Sharif fell and the Taliban began to disintegrate. In that short of time, Taliban fighters have been driven from every Afghan city, including one Mullah Omar promised to defend to the death. Instead, he's on the run. So is al Qaeda. Who knows where bin Laden is? Afghans have agreed on a transitional government, and there concrete developments today on a peacekeeping force. What looked at the beginning might turn into a quagmire, now, all of a sudden, is beginning to look a little bit too easy, which may be why everyone, from the president on down has begun saying, hey, wait a minute, this isn't over yet.
That is true in Washington and it is especially true in Kandahar. We go back there and CNN's Christiane Amanpour -- Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Well, Aaron, yes indeed, this is where Mullah Omar had appealed to his fighters to make a last stand. He had appealed all along throughout the war for people not to turn back or flee, but they did, as we've seen in the last several weeks. Here, over the weekend, the Taliban finally surrendered.
They handed power over to a coalition of tribal leaders, and it took a couple of days to consolidate that. It appears that it is quite calm, and being consolidated. The new leader of the interim government that has been designated at that Bonn conference a couple weeks ago is here in Kandahar. He's been holding meetings. He says that the situation is fully under control. And he says that it will be able to proceed. And he does want continued help from the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMID KARZAI, INTERIM AFGHAN LEADER: There are many challenges. But against these challenges, we also have now a feeling in Afghanistan that we must have peace and stability. Against these challenges, we also have now the cooperation of the international community. So with the help of the Afghan people, with a desire, the deep, deep desire of Afghan people to have normal life, and with the recognition now by the international community that Afghanistan must not be left alone, I hope very much, and I'm rather sure that we'll be successful. That we'll face all the challenges with courage, and win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, Hamid Karzai is headed towards Kabul, the capital, to talk with other leaders who have been designated as part of this interim government, and that is to take place take place on December 22nd. In the meantime, there are, as we said, about 200 of those Arab mercenaries we've heard so much about, being fighting with the Taliban, possibly linked with al Qaeda, still being surrounded and determined to fight on, or at least not to surrender, at an area near the airport.
Tribal leaders here say they believe they will eventually run out of supplies, but at the moment they are still dug in -- Aaron.
BROWN: Christiane, a couple of things. When we talk about tribal leaders who are essentially the government, how many people are we talking about?
AMANPOUR: Well, there are several different factions, one of which has now been designated the governor of Kandahar. And then of course there's Hamid Karzai, who has been designated the leader of this interim government.
And there's been quite a number of big meetings over the last couple of days -- I just went to one last night, and there were some over the weekend as well -- in which both Ghoula Har (ph), who is now one of those leaders, as I said, the governor of Kandahar and Hamid Karzai, holding big meetings with many, many of these leaders who have to come from around this region to talk, to hash things out, to have a say in the future and how things are going.
I mean, just last night, for instance, they were talking about the security for the city of Kandahar. So it does get sort of hashed out in this rather large, kind of consultative manner. And it's going to be an indication of the way things go for the future of the political situation in Afghanistan itself.
BROWN: Christiane, nice to see you back there in Afghanistan. Talk to you again soon. Thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Kandahar.
For a short time this morning, B-52s stopped bombing the mountains of Tora Bora, where al Qaeda fighters any maybe even Osama bin Laden are holed up. They stopped because the bombs are falling so close to the allied positions. It's a measure of how tight this battle has grown now, barely a mountain ridge between the two sides.
We go back to CNN's Ben Wedeman, who is in Tora Bora. Good morning again to you, Ben.
WEDEMAN: Yes, good morning, Aaron.
No B-52s this morning, but we are hearing fighter bombers overhead. Certainly during the night, of course, we heard some very large explosions. One of our producers reported seeing a humongous explosion with bright red flames light up the hillside.
Now, that could be the daisy cutter, the 15,000 pound bomb that the U.S. claims to have used against cave complexes in the mountains behind us. And that is really the biggest ordinance the U.S. has used in this area over the last week.
Now, yesterday we saw some very intense bombardment by the Eastern Alliance tribal fighters of the mountains behind me. They were using their old, antiquated Soviet T-55 tanks. Also, antiaircraft guns. Al Qaeda, however, despite the intense bombings of the last week, was able to respond. They were using 82-mm mortars, and in the afternoon, they kicked in with 120-mm mortars, which have about a 5 kilometer range. Very deadly indeed.
And the alliance had to pull back some of its forces. But nonetheless, we're hearing from Hazrat Ali, one of the heads of those tribal fighters, that they have bottled up al Qaeda in a 1.5 square mile area. Now, of course, we cannot confirm those reports. We did see yesterday the Eastern Alliance fighters bringing back to al Qaeda pickup trucks, which had some pamphlets in Arabic inside. And of course, we're being told by Hazrat Ali that today they're going to take the press inside to see the progress they've made. But we will believe it when we see it -- Aaron.
BROWN: A fair enough point. You don't have to be a general to figure this out, that al Qaeda owns the high ground. They own the mountaintops right now. Can you discern the plan to get them out? Is it just to bomb them until they are all dead?
WEDEMAN: Well, no. It appears that there's going to be -- there's going to have to be some sort of involvement by ground troops. Now, last night one of our security guards stopped a convoy of about 10 cars, in which he found some very heavily armed -- what he described as Americans. That might be an indication that they are getting close, and therefore the special forces -- and this is just an assumption -- may be coming in to finish off the job.
Because we've seen the Eastern alliance, although they are not lacking in enthusiasm, they're certainly lacking in the sort of heavy firepower, modern firepower that may be needed to go into those caves and tunnels, and to get out those al Qaeda fighters -- Aaron.
BROWN: Ben, thanks. Ben Wedeman in Tora Bora.
Camp Rhino now in a change in mission there, for the U.S. Marines. The Marines are now doing what they say they have wanted to do since they got into Afghanistan. They're starting to venture out beyond the base, beyond the perimeter. They are looking for the enemy.
The pool reporter tonight is Allen Pizzey, and he joins us from Camp Rhino. Allen, nice to see you.
ALLEN PIZZEY, POOL REPORTER: Good morning from Camp Rhino, Allen -- Aaron. Sorry, I'm Allen.
As you said, the Marines are moving out. If this is point A, they were a little while ago at what they called point B, and now they have moved on to point C, which is considerably closer to Kandahar. They won't let us say exactly where they are, but they've increased their troop strength and armor strength out there, they say, by about 20 percent.
The idea is to help squeeze in more and more whatever Taliban and al Qaeda may be left in Kandahar, cut off their escape routes and bring them in here. The only sign of activity at the camp this morning, there's been a couple of Cobra gunships that went up a couple minutes ago. They weren't moving very fast, but do a lot of lazy patrols.
Perhaps you can hear over this audio, the sound of a huey out there flying over the lines. The Marines are watching everything that moves out here. Anything that does move is going to be taken in and checked. If what's moving is carrying a weapon and that person does not put that weapon down immediately, the Marines say they'll be very dead very immediately. This is what they've wanted to do all along, catch these guys and bring them in. There's a detention facility being built here. Yesterday it was a hole in the ground. Today it's got a couple of tents in it. There will be barbed wire strung around it.
The only person in detention here at the moment -- and we don't think he's in that actual facility, but he's on this base somewhere, is John Walker, the young American caught with the Taliban. They're still examining his case here.
BROWN: And do you hear much talk, Allen, about Walker among the Marines there, and what they think ought to happen?
PIZZEY: They don't say very much, but when we ask about it, they rather near. One young Marine said yesterday, "well, he's an American, that means he's got a free choice. But I think he made the wrong choice. I think he's a criminal or a traitor."
And another young man, when we asked about John Walker, said, "My momma always told me, 'if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all.' So I got nothing to say." And that about sums up their opinion. They really think that he's lower than a snake's belly, as you might say around here. They really don't like him.
They think they're doing the right thing. Marines here -- this is an unusual operation. I've been on quite a few operations with Marines, where they've been doing various things they are supposed to do. And generally, they say, yeah, they're doing their job. Their proud to do their job, but they'd rather be home.
No one here has said they'd rather be home. I haven't met a single Marine who doesn't want to be here. I mean, I think the reasons are obvious. But the attitude is very, very determined here, Aaron.
BROWN: Allen speaks of the personal nature of the attacks of September 11th. Thank you again. It's good to see you. Allen Pizzey, the Pool reporter at Camp Rhino tonight.
Just ahead from us on NEWSNIGHT: deciding what to do with the new bin Laden tape. Also tonight, one immigrant's post 9-11 nightmare. Mohammed Khan says the FBI got the right name but the wrong man. We'll talk to his lawyer in a bit. This is NEWSNIGHT, for Monday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK, now more on the tape and the debate about the tape. The deputy defense secretary said today he had one word for the bin Laden tape: "disgusting." We'll take him at his word. That's all we can do right now. The White House hasn't yet released the tape, even though it may be the most damning evidence yet against Osama bin Laden.
There are a lot of issues the United States has to work through before the public gets to see this tape. The issue surrounding the tape in a moment, and the debate. But first, the tape and its contents, and its discovery. CNN national security correspondent David Ensor joins us for that part of the story. David, good evening.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.
Well, the tape was found, we are told, in a private house in Jalalabad. But the exact circumstances of how it was found, who helped find it, well, U.S. officials are not willing to discuss that.
I have spoken with a couple of officials, however, who have closely examined the tape. And they say it is strong evidence indeed against Osama bin Laden -- strong evidence that he helped organize and knew all about these attacks before they occurred.
It is a poor quality, amateur tape. Some pretty good tight shots of bin Laden, I'm told. Very bad audio quality in some parts of the tape. But on it, you can hear bin Laden saying first he turned on the radio, listening for the reports, knowing the attack was supposed to occur that day. He wanted to hear what the reporting was like.
Secondly, that he knew several days ahead of time these attacks were going to occur. And thirdly, concerning the World Trade Center attacks in New York, bin Laden saying on the tape that he was surprised by the scope of the damage to those buildings. That he had expected, when the attacks were planned, that the damage would have been less extensive, that the Towers would not have collapsed the way they did.
What struck Senator Richard Shelby of the intelligence committee most, was the tone that bin Laden uses on those tapes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: My biggest surprise was that he seemed so happy. And the audience that he was talking to, the person he was talking to, seemed real happy of the events. And basically, he was bragging about what he knew, and actually telling them that the events were a lot more destructive than they even dreamed they would be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: And perhaps the most chilling of all, Aaron, some of the officials who have seen the tape talk about the jovial tone that bin Laden adopts when he's talking about the attacks. And, almost laughing about the fact that some of the men who were involved in the hijackings didn't even know they were going on suicide hijackings -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, did the people you're talking to in the intelligence community, and the like, do they want this tape out?
ENSOR: Absolutely. In fact, they've been arguing behind closed doors for the release of the tape for some time now. It is apparently the White House that has been hesitating, at least for a few days. It has a lot of issues it wants to work out.
BROWN: And how long has the tape been in American possession here?
ENSOR: To my knowledge, at least 10 days. But I think it's closer to two weeks.
BROWN: David, thank you. David Ensor, national security correspondent on that part of the story.
Since September 11th, the White House has been struggling with how to deal exactly with these messages and these videotapes from bin Laden and his people. As the vice president put it yesterday, the United States has -- quote -- "not been eager to give the guy any extra television time than he can obtain for himself."
But the videotape discovered now is different from the ones obviously that came before. And that means the debate is a little bit different, too. So we go back to the White House, where CNN's Kelly Wallace has been covering the debate. Kelly, good evening.
WALLACE: Good evening again to you, Aaron. Well, this tape definitely different, because U.S. officials say it's not -- what they call a pre-packaged propaganda tool that bin Laden would use for recruiting purposes, but more, as David Ensor was just mentioning, more of a conversation that he was having that was captured on videotape.
And late today, we did learn, barring any unforeseen development, the tape would be released and that the target date would be Wednesday. Now, for why not sooner, U.S. officials say a couple things. No. 1, they say it's a very complicated translation. They say at times bin Laden is speaking in a very low voice.
They are also consulting with translators outside the federal government -- this, to shield the administration from any criticism that is trying to twist bin Laden's words in any way. And then this also, as David mentioned -- the Bush advisers that I talked to say they are still trying to map out exactly how this tape got into the hands, ultimately, of U.S. officials.
But the sense we got all day, Aaron, is that the president definitely wanted this tape to be released, as long as its released wouldn't compromise any future intelligence gathering capabilities. And the president spoke out about this tape late tonight at an event marking the second night of Hanukkah. He was asked what the public should expect to learn if it gets access to this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For those who see this tape, they'll realize that not only is he guilty of incredible murder, he has no conscience and no soul -- that he represents the worst of civilization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And, Aaron, all along one argument for releasing the tape, U.S. Officials saying it could put to rest any doubts that might still exist in the Muslim world about bin Laden's culpability in the attack. On the negative side though, those saying that it should not be released, concerns again about potential intelligence gathering methods, how those could be compromised.
But also concerns, as you noted, Aaron, about giving bin Laden more air time. And also, any criticism that the administration could face that it might have doctored the tape in any way. But the administration clearly seeing that it believes the public could learn more by getting this tape. So right now, the tape is expected to be released. And again, the target date, Wednesday -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, I'm not sure how this could compromise intelligence since both you and David say they're not quite sure how they got it. But we'll let that go for a second.
WALLACE: Good point.
BROWN: Thank you. Do we know how long the tape is, roughly?
WALLACE: Roughly, I believe about 40 minutes. A 40-minute tape, and President Bush, we know, has seen it. Vice President Dick Cheney has seen portions of it. The deputy defense secretary, as you noted, has also seen it. Other officials, Aaron, have seen transcripts of it but not the actual tape.
BROWN: And just quickly, do you have any idea how they're going to get it out, once they actually decide to get it out?
WALLACE: That again is also being discussed. Likely to be here at the White House, certainly. And also likely to present the tape. Also, a translation by the White House, by U.S. officials. And also, have again these translators from outside the federal government on hand, again, to shield the administration of any criticism of its own translation -- Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Wallace at the White House tonight.
Just ahead on NEWSNIGHT for Monday, remembering the fallen volunteers in "America's New War."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The country today paid tribute to four of its own killed in combat in Afghanistan. Fort Campbell, Kentucky first: three green berets who died together were remembered together today. Master Sergeant Jefferson Donny Davis, Staff Sergeant Brian Cody Prosser and Sergeant First Class Daniel Petithory -- all three killed outside Kandahar when a U.S. bomb missed its target.
In a very moving scene today at Arlington National Cemetery -- most of them are at Arlington -- CIA agent Michael Spann, laid to rest as a hero. The only known American to die at the hands of the enemy in Afghanistan. He died at the beginning of that prison revolt in Mazar-e Sharif. He was buried today with full military honors. The CIA director, George Tenet, said -- quote -- "Mike understood it is not enough simply to dream of a better, safer world. He understood it has to be built." But by far the most eloquent speaker today was Mike's wife, Shannon. No sound bite here. A long listen. The audio is a little shaky in parts. The words are not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANNON SPANN, WIDOW OF MIKE SPANN: As I stand here today, and as I just was getting up from my seat, I was remembering that my heart is broken. It broke when it fell to the ground two Sundays ago, in a place really far from here. But I'm asking it to work well enough for a couple of minutes so that I can tell you something important about Mike, with the kind of sincerity that I think, darling, that you would have hoped.
So I want to tell you something as humbly as I can, just in my own words. I want to tell you that my husband is a hero. But Mike is a hero not because of the way that he died, but rather because of the way that he lived. Mike was prepared to give his life in Afghanistan, because he already gave his life every day to us at home.
He didn't separate serving his country from serving his family. It seems like when Mike took an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic, that he took that oath to our family as well. He just really thought that it was his duty as a father to protect his children from terrorism, just as equally as he thought it was his duty to provide a roof over their heads.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: At Arlington today. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We want to revisit the issue of civil liberties and national security tonight, this time the detentions of hundreds of people in the wake of September 11th. Because they're being held under such tight restrictions, it isn't easy to know much about many of these detainees.
But tonight we know a little bit more about one of them. He's a man who came to this country for freedom. But lately, he found something else; in part, he says, because of his name. His story raises some very troubling questions and we'll explore them more in a bit. But first, some background from CNN's Deborah Feyerick.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's store manager for a major electronics company, living on Long Island with his wife Shaheen and their three American-born children. Yet for the last month and a half, Mohammad Azmin Khan has been locked up at Passaic County Jail in New Jersey, where he called CNN. MOHAMED AZMIN KHAN, DETAINEE: Mohammad! I'm right here. They're doing a roll call right now to make sure everybody's in the jail.
FEYERICK: Khan is a tax-paying, political-asylum-seeking U.S. resident. Aside from parking tickets, he's never been in trouble with the law. So why's he in jail? He says FBI agents told him they got the wrong guy.
KHAN: This is not the Mohammad Khan we need. They're actually looking for some other Mohammad Khan.
FEYERICK: The FBI will not comment. But CNN has learned that a week after Mohammad Azmin Khan was taken into INS custody, another man, Mohammad Asif Khan, was rounded up by FBI and INS agents.
That Mohammad A. Khan is also in jail, also in New Jersey. Mohammad Khan is one of the most common Pakistani names. Asked about the two being detained, an INS spokesman said he "can't confirm nor deny any information regarding detention issues."
Following the September 11th attacks, President Bush signed the Patriot Act, giving the attorney general up to six months to detain people considered a danger to national security. Mohammad Azmin Khan works at this electronics store in Brooklyn. The owner says he's very well liked by customers and co-workers and that he's done a terrific job, working his way up from salesman to store manager.
And he is here legally. Three years ago, Khan was denied political asylum because Pakistan's government changed since he fled. He's been legally appealing ever since. Says his new lawyer:
ROLAND GELL, DETAINEE'S LAWYER: He has been very, very active in his community. They certainly know where he is. He has been granted work authorization, he's filed his taxes. A guy like that would never have been picked up by INS before September 11th.
FEYERICK: The question remains, who's the real Mohammad Khan the FBI seems to be looking for? What's the reason? And are there more men with the same name in custody? The FBI won't say. For Shaheen Khan, whose once well-off family is now facing bankruptcy, that has made her husband's detention all the more unbearable.
SHAHEEN KAHN, WIFE OF DETAINEE: It's not fair to my kid, it's not fair to my husband, because he is no criminal. He has no charges. He is not a bad man.
FEYERICK: Khan remains locked up waiting for his INS hearing. His wife jumps each time the phone rings, crushed when he says he's still not free to come home.
KAHN: OK. OK. Take care, honey. Bye, bye. Ok, bye. God bless you.
FEYERICK: Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Hicksville, New York.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: We tried to get someone from the government to come on the program tonight and talk about Mr. Khan's story. "Not tonight, " they said. The Justice Department saying its policy is not to comment on any of its detainees. With that in mind now, we're joined by Mohammad Khan's attorney, Roland Gell.
GELL: Thanks for having me.
BROWN: Thanks for being here. Is he charged with anything?
GELL: Well, right now he has an appeal pending before the Board of Immigration Appeals, and we have made a bond request in order to get Mohammad out.
Unfortunately, the government refused to set a bond and the judge refused to issue a bond. So we are waiting for the Board of Immigration Appeals to come down with a decision. His deportation has been stayed, so he can't be moved out of the country. We are simply waiting for this administrative body, the Board of Immigration Appeals, to adjudicate the applications before it.
BROWN: Maybe I'm not asking this question right. Has he done anything illegal?
GELL: Absolutely not. There's no criminality charged. And I think the FBI has pretty much cleared him. We've had an immigration hearing and he would never have been put into Immigration custody if the FBI had any interest in him. So no, he hasn't been -- he has no crimes.
BROWN: And is there anything about his immigration status that is questionable, I don't -- illegal, not right, whatever word is correct here?
GELL: No, I don't think so. He has an appeal pending before the Board of Immigration Appeals. He had been given work authorization. He was working legally. He'd been a member of society, hardworking, active working in his community. They certainly knew where he was -- that is, the immigration service knew where he was. No, I didn't think there was anything unusual or out of kilter about his placement.
BROWN: OK. Do you have any idea how he ended up in jail?
GELL: Well...
BROWN: What happened here? How did they get to him?
GELL: Well, they got to him probably the same way they get to most people, and that's based on a tip. A neighbor, a friend, someone that says this fellow is a little suspicious, maybe you should check this guy out. That's how I was told they found him, that somebody complained about him.
BROWN: And how long after he was taken into -- had you been dealing with him prior to his arrest is the right word? GELL: Well, no. Well, arrest, sure. That's what it was. He was arrested and he was detained. He's detained at Passaic County Jail. I wasn't his lawyer handling the original political asylum or the appeals that are currently before the BIA. I have taken the case up recently.
BROWN: OK. Has he had trouble communicating with you? And we have heard stories about the conditions under which some detainees are being kept. They don't have access to legal counsel, they can make only one phone call. Are -- any of those issues come into play?
GELL: No, not really. I -- he is able to communicate with me. It's very expensive to communicate, though. The fact is they only allow them their own phone cards and it's $1.50 a minute and it's very expensive for a guy like this to talk to me and talk to his family and it's tough for the fellow.
BROWN: And give me a sense of his spirits at this point.
GELL: Well, he's not happy. He has got a family who -- they love him very much...
BROWN: Does he any -- let me -- does he in any sense appreciate or understand or think about the fact that there was this horrible trauma on -- on September 11th and that the country has gone through an extraordinary time and he's sort of gotten caught up in it?
GELL: Well, he does. Absolutely he does. He -- he was terrorized by what happened, just as we all were terrorized by what happened. He has been a member of this community for a long, long time here in New York. He loves New York. He was touched by the tragedy. I've heard him cry myself about it. We've all cried about it. I don't think Mohammad is any different than any of us.
BROWN: Thanks for coming in tonight.
GELL: Sure. Thank you very much.
BROWN: Appreciate your time. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT still, a story about suffering that wouldn't stop for one family in New York. NEWSNIGHT on a Monday continues after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, there hasn't been much on the program tonight that's been easy, has there? It all seems sort of sad and what's coming is no exception. This is the story of a man -- a family, really -- hit by the twin disasters that hit New York this fall: first the Trade Center and then the crash of American Airlines Flight 587.
It seems impossible that such sorrow could visit any one family, and we know there are others like it. Our story tonight is reported by CNN's Maria Hinojosa.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE) MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Three long months, but Rafael Hernandez still can't get September 11th out of his mind.
You haven't washed this shirt since September?
RAFAEL HERNANDEZ, 9/11 SURVIVOR: I don't wash this shirt. I just put it over there.
HINOJOSA: He tore ligaments in both knees escaping the disaster
HERNANDEZ: Oh my God, you don't know -- you got no idea. This is -- nothing that you could describe when you got that pain.
HINOJOSA: Rafael always hated planes, has been on one only three times. Now the images have been burned into his memory.
HERNANDEZ: When I see that plane go into the building, like the -- like the building eat the plane and at the same time that explosion, that I say, that's it.
HINOJOSA: His eldest daughter worried about him, but she counted on his wife Carla to help him through this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was traumatized and she was the one there every time he woke up at two o'clock in the morning. And so she assured me that he was going to be fine.
HINOJOSA: He was starting to be fine. So much so that he ignored his nightmares about planes crashing and for his wife's birthday, he put her and their baby girl on a plane November 12th. It turned out to be Flight 587 to the Dominican Republic.
HERNANDEZ: When I see that 587 to the Dominican Republic only I read this. And I cover myself again and I say -- I say, I am dreaming. I don't know what it is. Then I say, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) look again and I raise the volume. The crash -- when I hear the crash, that I when I crash myself. What are you gonna do? Are you -- you just got to walk back and forth, back and forth. I was white with no blood.
HINOJOSA: His ten-year-old daughter, who had cried on September 11th thinking she had lost her father, went into shock hearing instead she had lost her mother and baby sister.
HERNANDEZ: She said, you better go back to the airport and pick up mommy and Joanny. Pappy, you better bring them back home to me. She was like a woman.
HINOJOSA: Now she pictures them as angels up above. What do you think your mom and Joanny are doing in heaven now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looking at us.
HINOJOSA: Looking at us? And smiling?
And is that why you like to smile so much? Because you want to make sure that your mom knows that you are happy? Yeah?
How else can one bear the weight of two tragedies?
HERNANDEZ: I gave them the gift of death, not the gift of life. When I give them that ticket for her, for her birthday, it's like -- like I'm giving her dying. You're going to die in this. I mean, I feel really guilty. That's the worst thing. Though how do I know that the plane going to crash?
HINOJOSA: Or know that the tiny altar outside the house would be for her and not him? And inside, two little birds for the two spirits gone. And on video, memories of the littlest one, Joanny, the family clown.
HERNANDEZ: If you feel this, that was the way my daughter feel. I got to sleep with this thing, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was in there. She got to be in there like that all the time. I love you. I love you. I'm going to kiss you (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I -- I really love that little kid.
HINOJOSA: Mammy, as they called her, was Laura's best friend and confidante.
HERNANDEZ: Every time my mom had problems she talked to me and she'd feel all better.
HINOJOSA: She'd feel all better?
She wrote her daughter children's books that Laura and dad now struggle to finish.
HERNANDEZ: I am feeling kind of sad today.
HINOJOSA: Now they travel to Carla's grave to pray for her, and to try to understand. Her mother tells them to not be afraid of the enormity of their loss. They are, after all, not alone in this tragedy. The pain these days is universal and oh so large.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
HINOJOSA: Maria Hinojosa, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: All right. No mystery guest segment, and I guarantee you that were not going to talk about you know what. We'll talk about tomorrow's news tonight.
Two terrific newspapers tonight from Houston, Texas, Tommy Miller, the managing editor of the "Houston Chronicle." And from San Francisco, Jerry Roberts, the managing editor of the "San Francisco Chronicle." And good evening to both of you. It's nice to see you both again.
JERRY ROBERTS, "SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE:" Good evening, Aaron.
TOMMY MILLER, "HOUSTON CHRONICLE:" Nice to see you, Aaron.
BROWN: Tommy, let's start with you. What's your -- what's your lead in the paper tomorrow, do you know?
MILLER: The lead story's still the war, Aaron, but we've got a couple of other strong local stories. One story about the case of Andrea Yates, the mother who's accused of drowning her five children.
BROWN: And we'll -- I want to come back to that. And Jerry in San Francisco, do you -- it's little early for you yet. Do you know your headline is tomorrow?
ROBERTS: Well, we're still -- we're still on the war. And I think the biggest local story and the one everybody is talking about continues to be John Walker, this 20-year-old guy from our area, Marin County, Fairfax, up north, who ended up fighting for the Taliban. And what happened to him, how did he get there and what's going to happen to him next.
BROWN: Across the country I don't hear much sympathy for young Mr. Walker. Is there much sympathy for him in the Bay Area that you hear?
ROBERTS: There is not, really a great deal of sympathy. In fact, when we ran an op-ed piece that sort of rather tepidly said why don't we find you out what the facts are? and a couple of news stories that were a little dispassionate we were really inundated with e-mails and calls and letters. And talk shows have been the same way. So there isn't a lot of sympathy. But we are trying to do our best to be fair about it.
BROWN: Is that -- are you finding, by the way, that it's difficult to write about all of these somewhat contentious issues, whether it be Walker or civil liberties, national security and get bombarded by e-mails and the like?
ROBERTS: Well, there is a lot of -- I mean, obviously there is a huge amount of reaction to all of these things. This one seem to have particularly touched a chord and I think it goes beyond the question of Walker and sort of into these ideas about Marin County, the -- perhaps the most liberal place on earth and permissiveness, openmindedness, parenting. All of these issues. It's seems as if Walker's kind of a Rorschach test and it's generating a lot of strong opinions about of other issues.
BROWN: All right. Tommy, your family story is quite a bit different in Houston. The Andrea -- is it Andrea of Andrea Yates story?
MILLER: Andrea.
BROWN: What I remember -- the last time I saw it is the judge said he would allow -- or she, now, I don't remember if it's he or she -- would allow the death penalty in the case. What are you hearing from readers on this story?
MILLER: Pretty mixed. I mean, there's mixed opinions on it. You've got some strong reactions that -- from people believe she should be held responsible for what happened, and -- and are supporting maybe the death penalty if she is convicted. And then this is people on the other end of the spectrum that say she was ill -- she's ill and shouldn't receive stiff punishment.
BROWN: Do you find now almost, as -- as winter approaches, literally now, that interest in the war, on the war on terrorism, domestic or foreign, has eased noticeably in Houston?
MILLER: I would say it's just eased a bit. It's still -- it's still the top story. Still a lot of interest in it. I mean, you were talking earlier about e-mails. Any time we got a story about patriotism and something that people believe is not patriotic we get e-mails and calls. So it's still a top story. It's just eased off a bit.
We just got -- had three other strong stories here in recent weeks: the -- this Andrea Yates story and then the collapse of Enron, the largest company in Houston and one of the largest energy companies in the country, and then we had this mayor's race runoff a couple of weeks ago.
BROWN: And are you able to give these local stories as much time and space as you'd like to?
MILLER: We try to. We've had -- like on Sunday on the Enron story, two page stories with three pages inside. We had one story about a lot of the employees who have been laid off and the financial hits they're going to be taking. So we've -- we've put quite a bit of space on all three stories.
BROWN: Jerry, when was the last time the California energy story was on the front page of the paper?
ROBERTS: Well, actually, we've had a couple in the last few weeks. Not in the lead position but we are kind of on the flip side of the Enron thing.
You know, Enron was kind of the great giant that was slain out here and seen as in a large part as one of the causes of the energy crisis. So one of things we are trying to unravel as the year comes to an end is whatever happened to the energy crisis, and how did we get into it, how do we get out of it? So we had a huge amount of coverage earlier. And now we are trying to kind of close the book on that story and find out where we are now.
BROWN: Sounds be like a terrific year-end story. It's good to talk to both of you. Tommy Miller and Jerry Roberts in Houston and San Francisco. Have terrific holidays. It's nice to see you both again.
ROBERTS: Thanks, Aaron. MILLER: OK. Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you. That was nice. That was fun to do again. We haven't done that in a while. When we come back, here's one of those jokes. You know, there were these two Jewish guys in Kabul. You think this is joke? Wait until you hear the punchline. NEWSNIGHT for Monday in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally from us tonight, a story with a premise so deliciously wonderful it's almost too good to check. This one, though, we couldn't resist looking into. We found two Jewish men living in Kabul, perhaps the last two Jews in all of Afghanistan.
They survived the war, they survived the Taliban, and despite incredible persecution they have managed to hang on to the one thing they have in common: they really don't like each other. So happy Hanukkah, and here's CNN's Jason Bellini.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In post-Taliban Kabul, only two Jews are known to remain. Both live in this synagogue, where they fight venomously with one another over the fragments of the previous Jewish life here. "That stupid man turned the synagogue into a whorehouse" says one. "The other man that you met, he's a cruel man and a liar," says the other.
At the heart of their mutual hatred, rival claims to the 500- year-old Torah that used to sit on this altar.
ZEBULON SIMENTOV: Yeah, come on. Come in.
BELLINI: First I met Zebulon Simentov. He says he came here four years ago on business, and ended up staying through the entire Taliban regime. Even though his family lives in Israel, he says he won't go home until he gets the Torah back and is assured that it's in good hands, not in the hands of his cohabitant, Ishak Levin.
Your friend says many bad things about you. He says you're a bad man. I want to know if that's true.
Ishak reluctantly invites me in for a few minutes, which turn into a few hours. He says he came to Kabul 26 years ago. Everyone else left, including his family. Now he's all alone.
Alone except for Zebulon. He says Zebulon hates him because "I'm an obstacle to him getting the book and selling it." But each accusation one makes, the other is ready with a response. "That other man betrayed his religion. He became a Muslim. I was Jewish, I am Jewish, I'll be Jewish in the future."
"For the first two years of the Taliban regime, I did pray," he says. "When this other stupid man came here I was caught by the Taliban and they wouldn't let me pray. Beside that, they hit me." Zebulons shows me photos of his legs. He says the Taliban hit him while he was in prison. He also shows me a letter, proving, he says, that the Taliban arrested him because Ishak told them he was a spy for Israel and that he planned to take the Torah away and sell it for two million dollars.
"I came into the synagogue one evening and discovered a window open and the Torah missing," Ishak says. "I then went to the Ministry of Interior Affairs and told them what happened, because I was the one responsible for the Torah."
On one point, both men agree. The Taliban took the Torah and never returned it. I'm beginng my quest to find the holy Torah, here at the Interior Ministry building. This is where both men believe the Torah is now located. I'm going to go inside and see if I can find it.
The head of the Interior Ministry has never heard about the Torah. He sends me to the Ministry of Culture and Information. Nope, never heard of it. Visit the man in charge of logistics. "OK," he says, "I'll look into it. Come back in a few days."
"Whenever I speak about anything, the other man comes here to listen to what I say." "I need to make sure that other man isn't listening to me," Ishak says. "He threatens to kill me and throw me in a well."
It would be better if someone killed him? Is that what you just said? "I don't want to kill him. He's an old man. He will die himself." Inside the temple, desecrated not by the Romans, but by neglect and infighting, both Jews of Kabul light their Hanukkah candles separately.
It would take a miracle to bring the two men together and perhaps an act of God to return the Torah to the honest man. Jason Bellini, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: That's all. We will see you tomorrow at ten. Good night.
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