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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Two Militants Connected to the Jewish Defense League Have been Arrested for Plotting to Blow up a Congressman's Office; U.S. Government Decides to Delay the Release of the Bin Laden Tape

Aired December 12, 2001 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.

Sometimes we just make the best guess we can, and today is one of those days. When the administration decided to hold to the bin Laden tape for at least one more day, our lead story tonight up and vanished. Leads have a way of doing that often in our business. On a bad day, the lead is all you have. But today there is lots of interesting material to work with. But which is the lead?

There was another outbreak of violence in Israel, more people killed by suicide bombers, more retaliation. In Tora Bora, Afghanistan, a new ultimatum for al Qaeda members: freedom in exchange for bin Laden.

And then there was a plot uncovered, according to prosecutors here in the United States. Jewish American militants conspiring to blow up Muslim targets in California. We settled on the last store, and here is why: If Arab-Americans today were charged and arrested with conspiracy to blow up a synagogue this weekend, is there much question that we would lead with it? There probably would be little debate, no contest, between the stories. That's our thinking, and we begin in California.

Two members of the militant Jewish Defense League were charged with conspiring to blow up Arab and Muslim sites in the state. We'll look at the JDL, a group that's made trouble for its enemies and moderate Jews, too, for decades.

On the day of Ramadan known as the night of power, the night of God's greatest forgiveness in Islam, suicide bombers unleashed another deadly attack on Israelis. Israeli jets fired back as the Palestinian Authority tried to shut down the offices of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

In Tora Bora, U.S. warplanes continued to bomb the al Qaeda holdouts. And while one report claimed Osama bin Laden had already escaped to Pakistan, U.S. officials say: Read that report with lots of skepticism.

We'll have all of those stories. We'll also take a long look tonight at the man who is going to lead Afghanistan, at least for the next six very crucial months, Hamid Karzai. We'll hear some of Christiane Amanpour's interview with him. And we'll meet his brother who lives here in the United States.

And some of the prisoners of the Taliban, one just 12 years old when he was jailed four years ago, they're freed now, and going home. Jason Bellini's story on that comes at the end of the program.

And in that regard, a man wrote us an e-mail the other day complaining that we always put really good stories at the end. "That's manipulation," he charged. I'm not kidding about this. I told him we would rethink our policy, and we have. We'll keep running good stuff at the end. Hopefully the middle and the top, too. For that matter, we'll keep running the whip right here.

So we begin in Los Angeles, where prosecutors say they have uncovered a plot. Charles Feldman working the story. Charles, the headline, please.

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.

Two people in jail tonight. The government charging a plot by Jewish militants to blow up a mosque in California, as well as the offices of an Arab-American congressman.

BROWN: Charles, back with you shortly. Jerusalem next. Chris Burns is there. Chris, a headline from you.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, what's increasingly looking like war despite U.S. truce efforts here, the Israeli government has just said in the last few hours that Yasser Arafat of the Palestinian Authority is no longer relevant, that the Israeli armed forces will now move ahead and crack down on their own against suspected terrorists inside the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

This coming, of course, in the wake of Israeli airstrikes, helicopter gunships and F-16s, against Palestinian positions in the wake of another suicide attack and an ambush on an Israeli bus in the West Bank. That, apparently, being the last straw for the Israeli government.

BROWN: Chris, back with you shortly. We seem to still be having satellite problems out at Tora Bora. We'll continue to work on that and move quickly then to the White House. Major Garrett has the duty tonight. Major, a headline please.

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. As for the bin Laden tape, the wait continues. And the White House knows impatience is growing: proof, if more proof was needed, that the story about the tape got out before the White House was quite ready. But the White House officials I've talked to insist the tape will be ready and released tomorrow, and will prove not only bin Laden's guilt, but his grotesque indifference, White House officials say, for the human suffering wrought on September 11 -- Aaron.

BROWN: Major, thank you. We'll be back with all of you shortly. We begin with the bomb plot and the arrests of those the government says planned it in California. And if what the federal government says is true, if a jury believes the evidence, it will be proof that terrorism is an equal opportunity evil. No one group owns it. And this time it's a radical Jewish group that's charged.

Back to Los Angeles and CNN's Charles Feldman. Charles, good evening to you.

FELDMAN: Good evening to you, Aaron.

And if what the government says is true, it will also show that religious holidays do not stand in the way of terrorism, because this alleged plot was gathering steam on the third night of the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Federal agents, under cover of darkness, moved in late Tuesday night, tipped off by a source, and allegedly found all the makings for a bomb in the home of a high-ranking official of the militant Jewish Defense League.

The source, a member of the JDL himself who turned government snitch, told authorities the plan was to bomb the King Fahad mosque in Culver City, as well as the offices of Arab-American Congressman Darrell Issa, a first-term Republican from southern California.

RONALD IDEN, FBI: When extremists plan and then take steps to carry out criminal acts of violence and hate, those criminals have exceeded their rights.

FELDMAN: Busted are: JDL head, Irving Rubin and JDL official Earl Krugel. It was Krugel who said, according to a federal complaint, that "Arabs needed a wake-up call," and that "the JDL needed to do something to one of their," and we quote here, "filthy mosques."

A telephone answering tape at JDL headquarters in Los Angeles makes clear why Congressman Issa was allegedly targeted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another guy we're going to have to watch is apparently Congressman Darrell Issa, who went to the Middle East this past October to sing the praises of Hezbollah and Hamas, and to try and remove those two groups from the State Department lists of terrorist organizations.

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: In America, we're trying to find a peaceful solution in the Middle East, and we're not going to be divided along any lines.

FELDMAN: Mainstream Jewish organizations were quick to condemn the alleged JDL plot. One Arab group says the arrests prove the U.S. is acting to protect the rights of Arab-Americans in the wake of 9/11.

ASLAM ALAM ABDULLAH, MUSLIM PUBLIC AFFAIRS COUNCIL: The Jewish terrorism is as wrong as the terrorists who belong to the Muslim or any other community. And this is the precise point that was made last night by that arrest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This case is being used to try to appease the Arab world that the United States is taking action to protect the Arab world.

FELDMAN: A federal judge refused to release the JDL chairman on bail, saying he was a danger to the community and nation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now, the government believes that there were other potential targets as part of this alleged plot, and they point out that this is very much an ongoing investigation -- Aaron.

BROWN: And did they give you any clue as to when more arrests, if more arrests are coming?

FELDMAN: No. Right now there are two people, of course, in custody. They are continuing to deal with a confidential source that they've developed. And in the next few days it will be interesting to see whether or not more people are indeed arrested.

BROWN: Charles, thank you. Charles Feldman in Los Angeles. One of the targets of this attack was allegedly the King Fahad mosque in Culver City, California, Los Angeles. Two thousand members of the congregation were expected to gather there on Saturday or Sunday for the end of Ramadan.

We're joined now by the director of the mosque, Tajuddin Shuaib. He joins us from our bureau in Los Angeles. Good evening to you, sir.

TAJUDDIN SHUAIB, DIRECTOR, KING FAHAD MOSQUE: Good evening.

BROWN: How did you find out?

SHUAIB: Well, today after our noon services, one of my assistants came to me and told me that there was a news from CNN that there was a plot to bomb the King Fahad mosque in Culver City.

BROWN: So you weren't called by federal authorities or anyone? You heard about this on television?

SHUAIB: Yes, I heard it on the television, and also I heard it from the radio. And the first information came to me from one of my assistants in the mosque.

BROWN: And have there been threats since September 11th on the mosque? Have there been problems out there?

SHUAIB: Not really. We, in Culver City, have had a very beautiful relationship with the city. The neighbors are very, very helpful and supportive. And the city, the police and the fire department, they are all with us. We haven't had any noticeable problem in the neighborhood.

BROWN: Do you believe that the danger has passed, if in fact, the allegations are true?

SHUAIB: Well, the major one has passed now. But we have to keep our guard and add more security in the mosque. I just left there about an hour ago when we break our fast, and informed the congregation the reason why we have the media and reporters, and that everyone should keep their eyes wide open. They are looking around, because it hasn't passed yet.

BROWN: Sir, is there -- even prior to September 11th, but particularly now, a growing tension between your congregation and Jewish people in southern California?

SHUAIB: No. In fact, one of our beautiful thing in the King Fahad mosque is that I see over there a lot of Jewish community in Culver City. And we have very excellent relationship with the community there, from the city officials to the neighbors. As a matter of fact, today after I received the news, one of our neighbors called me to tell me that he wanted us to know he is with us, and he is Jewish. And he hates, and feel ashamed for what has happened in the name of Jewish people.

BROWN: You must feel very lucky, fortunate, that whatever was planned, if it was planned, didn't happen.

SHUAIB: Yes. I think, first of all, when I first heard it I was shocked and saddened. But I thank God that the authorities were able to nip it in the bud and get the culprit, and arrest him and put him in jail, something which we all feel good about.

BROWN: Sir, thank you. Thanks for joining us today.

SHUAIB: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you very much. Again, these are allegations at this point. And we'll wait and see the evidence.

This may seem obvious, but in sensitive times like these, we should say it anyway. The Jewish Defense League is about as representative of Judaism as al Qaeda is to Islam. Indeed, the JDL has been a thorn in the side for many years of mainstream Jewish groups.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GALE GANS, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: All extremist groups live on the oxygen of publicity. And in fact, to find out that they were planning something like this really wasn't totally shocking.

BROWN (voice-over): Even though the Jewish Defense League is small, perhaps no more than several hundred members at most, critics say it thrives on one thing: fear.

GANS: I think that there are people out there who are frightened, Jewish people, who believe the Irv Rubins of the world, when they tell them that the only way to stop neo-Nazis, or to stop the Klan, or to stop extremists of any stripe is to get into their face and shout at them, or to plan more extreme activities, such as the ones that have landed them in jail.

BROWN: The JDL has been around since the '60s, originally led by Rabbi Meir Kahane, who made a career out of violent protest. Eventually, Kahane returned to Israel, and a decade ago was killed in New York City. He had come back here to raise money for the organization.

One of the men arrested today, Irv Rubin, anointed himself as Kahane's successor.

GANS: Irv Rubin has been around for a long time. He had a big mouth. He's gone to extremist events and attempted to cause riots and to have skinheads beaten up by people in the crowd.

BROWN: People who follow the group say that JDL has been largely quiet of late. But for Muslims, today's arrests brought home the point that terrorism, at least occasionally, runs both ways.

MAHER HATHOUT, ISLAMIC CENTER OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: We have been critical about certain policies of the state of Israel, and this was not very well received by certain Jewish groups.

GANS: People need to understand, A, that they're small and, B, that they don't speak for the Jewish community. It does cause your hair to rise up on the back of your neck, because this kind of activity by any group has abhorrence written all over it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Terror, whoever and wherever, is an evil. In the Middle East it seems like it's nearly an everyday occurrence. In Israel today another terrorist attack, and that being the case, the Israeli government responded with its military and its politicians. The military hit Gaza. The politicians hit Yasser Arafat. He is "irrelevant," the government declared. There will be no more contact with him.

Policy, at least for now. Back to CNN's Chris Burns in Jerusalem. Chris, good evening.

BURNS: That's right, policy. But that does portend some tougher crackdown by the Israelis. This Israeli cabinet statement coming, Aaron, in the last few hours. After several hours of debate within the cabinet, they came across with a five-point statement including, among the most important points, that Yasser Arafat, the head of the Palestinian Authority, is "no longer relevant," and that there will be no more contacts with him.

They also said that they will step up their military operations, that they will go into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to arrest on their own, and confiscate weapons of suspected terrorists, as they call them. As well as -- they said they however will not target Arafat himself. So Arafat is not going to be eliminated, as some hard-line Israeli authorities, Israeli officials, Israeli politicians are calling for.

This comes in the wake, just after Arafat announced that he was going to close, order the closure of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad offices in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. These are the two groups that the Americans and the Europeans, as well as the Israelis, have called terrorist groups. These two groups, having claimed a number of terrorist attacks in the past that have caused this crackdown.

And of course, in the last few hours before this, Israeli air attacks, F-16s and helicopter gunships attacking Palestinian positions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Among the targets were Arafat's radar station at the airport in the Gaza Strip, as well as a Palestinian naval police base on the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority's science community building. In Ramallah, two missiles hit a radio tower at Palestinian Radio, and one missile hit a house in a refugee camp.

No initial word on casualties there. However, this does come just as swift reaction to what international mediators saw as their worst nightmare.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The attack came after nightfall. Palestinian militants ambushed a bus carrying orthodox Jews to their settlement on the West Bank, and then, when ambulances arrived, they were caught up in the ensuing gun battle. It was the bloodiest attack on Israelis since Palestinian suicide bombers killed 26 in two incidents at the beginning of the month.

A U.S.-sponsored plan for a two-day truce seemed all but in tatters. The violence came just hours after a funeral for four Palestinians killed by Israeli helicopter gunships. Mourners ignored Arafat's ban on public display of weapons, yet another example of how the Palestinian Authority leader is failing to control the militants.

"Your blood is not shed in vain," they say. "We will continue the resistance until we free Palestine. All of Palestine." The four were killed when the Israelis rocketed a Palestinian security building and a Palestinian police vehicle in the Gaza Strip. Israel says it was in self-defense against mortar attacks on a nearby Jewish settlement and an army post.

Caught in the crossfire are U.S.-led diplomatic efforts at establishing the beginnings of a truce. A 48-hour cooling-off period, in which the Israelis can still retaliate against any new attacks. But they're to refrain from assassinating militants and let Arafat pursue his crackdown.

Despite the latest violence, the Israelis insist they will stick to those rules.

RA'ANAN GISSIN, SHARON ADVISER: We are committed to the cease- fire, and therefore we hope that there will be a possibility to restore this effort to establish a cease-fire. But one thing must remain clear: we have to take all the necessary measures in order to defend our citizens.

BURNS: Palestinians argue the continued Israeli attacks put Arafat in a virtually impossible position. HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL: While they want to shell and pound and kill and destroy Palestinian people and their institutions with total impunity, they're putting enormous pressure on the Palestinians, on their victims, to calm things down and not to respond and not to react.

BURNS: Where does this put the U.S. mediation efforts? The U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni said in a statement a few hours ago that Arafat, in his words, must act against these groups, the groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and they must act now. We'll have to see what happens on both sides in the coming hours, as daylight comes in these few short hours -- Aaron.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Chris Burns is in Jerusalem tonight on the violence there today and reaction to it.

When we come back we'll update the situation in Afghanistan, the hunt for bin Laden. We'll also take a look at the rescue today of the crew of a B-1 bomber that went down near Diego Garcia. That and more, as NEWSNIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The war now. When we left it last night, allied fighters had al Qaeda forces pinned down in the hills and mountains of Tora Bora. And the deal on the table then was surrender or die. Tonight, a new deal on the table: surrender and go free -- but only if Osama bin Laden and his top henchman are handed over.

No sign that's about to happen, which could explain why the bombers are bombing again. Airstrikes focusing on the caves and the openings, some hitting the same targets time and time again, while spotters, likely special operations troops, check for signs of life inside those caves.

Eastern Alliance forces have set a deadline now for the enemy to surrender, a new one, 2:30 a.m. Eastern time, noon in Afghanistan. The Pentagon warning against any surrender deal that would allow any terrorist leader to go free.

Two other related developments, at least, loosely related tonight. The first, a report in the "Christian Science Monitor" that bin Laden managed to slip somehow into Pakistan. And the other, a warning from John Walker, the American Taliban soldier, of another al Qaeda attack here in the United States. Both could turn out to be, as one official put it today, "tales told around the campfire."

Nevertheless, we work the story. Covering the bases tonight, CNN's national security correspondent, David Ensor, in Washington. David, why don't you start with the "Christian Science Monitor" report that bin Laden has perhaps fled the country and is in Pakistan.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that "Christian Science Monitor" report quotes one al Qaeda financier by name, saying that that has happened. There has also been one or two reports, Aaron, suggesting that an unnamed British official may have suggested that bin Laden might have moved into Pakistan.

However, White House officials, State Department officials and officials of some other well-informed agencies in the U.S. government say they do not believe that that is likely to be true. In fact, one knowledgeable official told me that he has recent evidence that Osama bin Laden is still in Afghanistan.

BROWN: When they talk about evidence that, or basis for belief that, can you not specifically talk about the intelligence they are working with, but give us a sense of the kind of intelligence they might have that would lead them to believe that?

ENSOR: Well, at this point there are quite a few defectors from the Taliban. You have to assume that there are people who have been close to al Qaeda that have also defected. There are a lot of people coming and going across the lines at this point. So they probably have some human intelligence, in addition to, obviously, a good deal of surveillance that's going on -- those pilotless drones we've been talking about are taking a lots of pictures.

BROWN: All right, on to John Walker, the American Taliban soldier and his story, purportedly relayed to the people interrogating him.

ENSOR: Well, that's right. He, as you know, is being held at Camp Rhino in the south of Afghanistan, and questioned very closely about whatever he knows. And he is apparently talking, U.S. officials tell me they know that John Walker Lindh has been saying that he understands there will be additional attacks against the U.S. coming up soon, in at least one case.

He's predicting another attack towards the end of Ramadan. And the last day of Ramadan this year is Sunday. So if he is correct, it's coming soon. However, U.S. officials express some skepticism. As you said earlier, one official said to me that those are kind of tales told around the campfire.

After all, John Walker would have been a pretty lowly foot soldier in al Qaeda or in the Taliban. He's not likely to know what the generals really have planned. Bin Laden says in that tape, that will presumably be released tomorrow, according to officials who have seen it, that not even his top lieutenants knew that September 11th was the day. So information was compartmentalized in that organization, Aaron.

BROWN: And, David, let me throw one other thing at you, if I can. There was talk today of another bin Laden tape, this one purportedly an interview done by al Jazeera that never aired. Without getting into why it never aired, do we know anything about the contents of that tape at all?

ENSOR: That was an interview done by al Jazeera, according to U.S. officials who have seen the tape and can testify that it exists, in which bin Laden apparently took control of the conversation and made the al Jazeera reporter not look too good. And that may be why it didn't run. It was filmed around October 20th, I'm told, and was basically a blast by bin Laden against the West. But at one point he did say that he would either win -- that he was taking the fight to America and that he would either win the fight or die -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you. National security correspondent, David Ensor, from Washington tonight.

In another one of this war's very welcome oddities, a bomber, U.S. bomber went down today in the ocean -- no casualties, and for no other reason than mechanical problems. We take note here because, obviously there's a war on and the bomber was on its way to the war zone, and in truth, because the Pentagon made the crew of the plane and the rescue ship available to reporters very quickly.

Perhaps a trend in war coverage? Well see. Jamie McIntyre, on the crash and the rescue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Once criticized as a Cold War relic, the non-stealthy B-1 bomber has become a workhorse of the Afghanistan war. On Wednesday, a B-1 left its base on the British island of Diego Garcia for the 4,000-mile bombing run over Afghanistan. Pentagon sources say it developed mechanical problems about 100 miles out and tried to return to make an emergency landing.

Air Force Captain William Steele was the pilot.

CAPT. WILLIAM STEELE, U.S. AIR FORCE, B-1 PILOT: We had multiple malfunctions. The aircraft was out of control, and we all had to eject.

MCINTYRE: The plane was at 15,000 feet, and 30 miles from land.

STEELE: I wasn't scared until I was actually in the chute on my way down, because at the time of the accident, I was just trying my best to save the aircraft and the air crew, and do my job.

MCINTYRE: A KC-10 refueling jet was flying nearby, and heard the distress call.

MAJ. BRANDON NUGENT, KC-10 PILOT: The pilot in the water apparently saw our lights and shot a flare. And when we saw that, we were extremely excited about that. And then shortly thereafter, Captain Dali (ph) was able to establish radio contact with the co- pilot of the downed aircraft.

MCINTYRE: While the plane circled above and the four crew members bobbed in the warm waters of the Indian Ocean for about two hours, a U.S. Navy destroyer raced to the area at top speed, only to find the ocean treacherously shallow.

CMDR. HANK MIRANDA, COMMANDING OFFICER, USS RUSSELL: We brought the ship as close as possible to where we thought the aircraft or the downed pilots were. And we had to put our boats in the water to actually make the recovery, about seven miles away from the ship. MCINTYRE: Navy Lieutenant Dan Manetzke headed up the small boat rescue crew.

LT. DAN MANETZKE, U.S. NAVY: Basically, I think they were just as happy to see us as we were to see them.

STEELE: This is Captain Steele. I have to say, I got to disagree a little bit on that last point. I think we were much happier to see them than they were to see us.

MCINTYRE (on camera): The crew suffered only minor injuries, cuts and bruises mostly. Captain Steele described the ejection as the most violent thing he's ever felt. He said he's pretty sore but he's ready to fly again, as soon as the Air Force will send him back into battle.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A happy ending, that. An unhappy ending here. Back to the place where they say valor proudly sleeps, Arlington National Cemetery. On Monday, the first American man killed in combat in Afghanistan was laid to rest at Arlington National Cemetery, Mike Spann .

Today, a pilot was buried, a man who was killed at the place where America's New War began, in the cockpit of one of the hijacked planes on the 11th of September. In this case, the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.

Charles Frank Burlingame was a former Navy pilot, a long-time reservist, such a talented aviator that his friends said he could make the jets talk. As a reservist, he died too young to be buried in his own grave at Arlington according to the rules.

His family took their case to the White House to get an exception. Ultimately, they succeeded and said their goodbyes at Arlington today.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Now to the tale of the tape. We don't have it. We absolutely want to show it. If it is the indictment of bin Laden that people have seen it believe it to be, we suspect many if not most of you want to see it as well, but it was held back again today.

The audio quality we are told is quite bad, making the translation difficult, though it seems just about everyone in Washington who wants to see it has, and they've all reached a similar conclusion. He knew.

Back now to the White House and CNN's Major Garrett. Major, good evening. MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron. The world's most wanted man is, on this tape, a witness against himself and a devastating one at that, according to administration officials.

And if the jury were comprised only of Americans, the tape would probably be out by now, but the jury is a global one. The administration knows that it's full of skeptics, willing to down just about anything the President or anyone in this administration says about bin Laden. That's why the translation is so important.

According to one senior official I spoke to tonight, the administration has to get this not only right the first time, but absolutely perfect. Well obtaining a perfect translation of bin Laden's words is not so easy. The chief spokeswoman for the Pentagon, Victoria Clarke, explained why earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESPERSON: The quality of the tape is poor. The picture is not great. This is not professionally produced videotape. The audio is very poor. Evidently, even if you were a fluid Arabic speaker, it is very hard to hear some of the things.

So we want to make careful, be very careful that we have an accurate translation of those parts that we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GARRETT: When the tape comes out, and White House officials insist that will be tomorrow, the White House hopes the following will occur: there will be statements from leaders in the moderate Arab world, preferably on camera, declaring not only bin Laden's guilt, but that he is a false prophet, and that's why the translation looms so large.

If it is perfect, if it is unimpeachable, the White House is betting that bin Laden will have done more than 100 diplomatic cables, high level meeting or presidential visits to solidify the anti-terror coalition. Aaron.

BROWN: Major, two things quickly. What's the mechanics here of getting it out, do we know?

GARRETT: Tomorrow, news organizations will be given what the White House calls a one-hour notice. With that notice, we'll all be ready and apprised. The tape will then be made available at the Pentagon, and we'll air it live here on CNN in its entirety.

BROWN: And have you picked up in talking to officials, any concern, this thing has been talked about now for several days, any concern that the anticipation will be greater than the realization?

GARRETT: I asked several officials about that very question tonight, Aaron. They say "oh no, this thing has not be oversold, and not only will the translation of what bin Laden says be important, but it will be his attitude, his demeanor" which as many have said on our network and others, very chilling, brutally indifferent to the human suffering he and others caused and set in motion on September 11 -- Aaron.

BROWN: Major, nice to see you. Major Garrett on the lawn of the White House today, the tale of the tape. Just ahead from us, a picture of Afghanistan's leader to be, Hamid Karzai, in the eyes of his brother, the leader of the American branch of the Karzai family.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: About a week from now, Hamid Karzai becomes the interim leader of the new government of Afghanistan. He inherits a country divided by ethnic group, by tribe, even by city blocks in some cases, so it's worth getting to know the man trying to hold all these complicated pieces together.

Hamid Karzai is an interesting character. He's been described as too mild mannered to be a warlord, too urbane, too Western. You'll hear from him in a couple of moments.

But first, to an American businessman who knows Hamid Karzai like a brother. In fact, like a kid brother.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): With a small pile of Afghan raisins within easy reach and a glass of green tea nearby, Qayum Karzai is on the phone again, explaining as he does a lot these days, how the Taliban decimated his country.

QAYUM KARZAI, HAMID KARZAI'S BROTHER: In Afghanistan, the civil society has been destroyed. The economic infrastructure has been destroyed, and the culture of Afghanistan and Afghanistan historical monuments have been destroyed.

BROWN: These days, the phone rings a great deal at the Karzai house. His younger brother, Hamid Karzai, is about to become the interim Prime Minister of Afghanistan.

QAYAM KARZAI: He's a very peaceful person. He has enormous capabilities of dialog, and enormous diplomatic skill.

BROWN: Qayam Karzai is a successful American businessman, one of a family of eight, seven brothers, one sister. That's his brother Hamid in the backyard of their home in Kandahar, a snapshot taken years ago, a very different time.

QAYAM KARZAI: Our family, my father and Hamid, were the first in the south of Afghanistan to come in opposition to the Taliban. This was a very brave step.

BROWN: "In the late '90s" Qayam says "the world didn't believe or didn't want to believe or simply didn't care." QAYAM KARZAI: The international community was fooled by the Taliban propaganda, that they were the party of law and order, and actually they were successful to turn Afghanistan into a prison.

BROWN: Their father, Abdul Ahad Karzai (ph), did not survive the Taliban.

QAYAM KARZAI: And he was assassinated coming out from a mosque and his evening prayer, and we have no doubt there's plenty of evidence that the Taliban and the terrorist forces were involved in that.

BROWN: After September 11th, Hamid Karzai felt he had to act and not just continue to attack the Taliban with his words, and so he entered Afghanistan to command a rebel force.

QAYAM KARZAI: I must tell you that it was a very, very nervous time. We were in contact with him on a daily basis, and we really thought that the odds were against him.

BROWN: While Qayam Karzai was in Bonn, representing his brother at the meetings that established an interim government, his brother, Hamid, was slightly wounded in that friendly fire tragedy that killed three Americans.

QAYAM KARZAI: I was on the phone ten minutes after the bomb and he told me after the experience that there was a friendly fire there and he was - in fact he had a hesitation in his throat because he lost some of his very close people in that bombing, and of course, many Americans lost their lives.

BROWN: In his small office, Qayam Karzai keeps this scrap of paper handy. On it, the number of his brother's satellite telephone in Afghanistan.

QAYAM KARZAI: It's busy.

BROWN: He won't need that number much longer. Next week, he flies to Kabul for the first time in 30 years to see his country and his brother again.

QAYAM KARZAI: He has a clear roadmap that he sees as to how stability and peace should occur.

BROWN: The Karzai family. When we come back, CNN's Christiane Amanpour talks to the next leader, the interim leader of Afghanistan. This is NewsNight on CNN.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching NewsNight with Aaron Brown. Next opinion and analysis on "Greenfield At Large." You can depend on CNN tonight.

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BROWN: More now on the man chosen to lead Afghanistan out of the mess that it finds itself in. His views on this country, hopes for his own. CNN's Christiane Amanpour did all the work here. She sat down with Hamid Karzai and she joins us now from Kandahar. Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Aaron, we interviewed him here in Kandahar, just on the eve of his departure for Kabul. And it was a fascinating setting because here was Hamid Karzai, who had just come into the town of Kandahar after it had fallen from the Taliban, sitting in Mullah Omar's old house, the compound that you saw on your program last night. That's where he's being housed, along with his loyalists.

He was surrounded by tribal elders with whom he was discussing about the, you know, establishing the security of this place and figuring out what to do as interim leader when he gets to Kabul. There was no electricity because Mullah Omar's compound had been heavily bombed, and so we did the interview in gaslight there.

Someone said of Hamid Karzai that he is at home in a suit and tie, as much as he is in a turban and tunic. He slipped back into Afghanistan, as you mentioned, just before the U.S. bombing, and he pursued the 22 years that spent in the resistance here.

At first, Hamid Karzai had supported the Taliban, back in 1994, but he quickly became disillusioned with their ideology and abandoned that support. And now, he's come back and as you see, he's been appointed the new interim leader.

We started by asking him about the risky venture into Afghanistan, those two months ago, and whether he thought he would survive.

HAMID KARZAI: When I was beginning my journey from the Pakistan border into Afghanistan, we were poor people on (inaudible). We gave ourselves a 60 percent death chance and 40 percent chance to live, and the 40 percent won.

AMANPOUR: And when you came in, what did you have, other than a desire to make this work? You didn't have an army. You didn't have arms. You didn't have the equipment. What did you have?

HAMID KARZAI: The population, the people, the knowledge that the people are against what's going on in Afghanistan, that the Afghans want dignity and honor. The Afghans want the terrorists to go, that the Afghans want the terrorists to vanish, to be eliminated, that the Afghans do not want the Taliban, do not want the oppression. I knew that.

AMANPOUR: You asked the United States to help at some point. How did that work?

HAMID KARZAI: It worked well. I asked the United States after I learned that the Taliban and their Arab terrorist friends are not going to go by negotiations or by peaceful means, and that they're going to be extremely brutal against those people who rise up against them to oppose them. They killed people, so I decided to ask for U.S. help and other international help, and I did receive it. AMANPOUR: And what did you get from the U.S. and what did you ask for?

HAMID KARZAI: I asked for everything, for humanitarian help, for arms, for political help. I got all of it.

AMANPOUR: People have tried and failed before to do what you're saying you want done for your country. The world has promised before and broken promises to help this country. What makes you think it will be different this time?

HAMID KARZAI: The Afghans have learned to listen. So have the international community. So has the United States. I must be very blunt.

If the world does not pay attention to Afghanistan, if it leaves it weak and basically a country in which one can interfere, all these bad people will come again. So a strong Afghanistan, a peaceful Afghanistan, is the best guarantee for all.

We will help the international community fight terrorism. We will first finish it in Afghanistan. We have suffered. We were the first victims of terrorism, and we will finish it here and help the rest of the world.

But the world must recognize that what happened in Afghanistan was not because of (inaudible). It was because of interference from outside and negligence by the international community. I'm sure they recognize that and they will help now.

AMANPOUR: And while we were sitting around with him and his people there, we really sensed a palpable feeling of excitement, of anticipation, and a possibility for the future of Afghanistan, a sense that this was the moment and they were going to grab it. Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. Christiane Amanpour in Kandahar tonight. And coming up on NewsNight, what happens when the jailers are overthrown? The prisoners go free, and they are. Reunion time in Afghanistan. This is NewsNight.

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BROWN: Finally from us tonight, freedom. We'll probably never know how many people the Taliban imprisoned. We'll probably never know how many deserved to be jailed. Surely some did and just as clearly, not all.

What we can be sure of is that many people are being released now, most, and are being sent home and we can be almost as certain that whatever they did to land them in jail, they suffered greatly while they were there. The road to freedom tonight, from CNN's Jason Bellini.

JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're still rediscovering the little things, like the scent of an apple.

"It's been five and a half years since I had an apple." The man puts his apples away for later, observing the Ramadan fast.

The big things, hugging their families, sleeping in their own beds, still awaits them, when they finally get home after years of Taliban captivity.

You don't look very happy. You look very tired.

"I'm not tired" the man tells me. "The trip here was hard, and I'm a little bit ill. I'm sorry, I can't speak very well. You should talk to some of the other men here."

"I didn't have any fruit or meat in prison, so I'm sick and weak. I can't go to the bathroom right now."

The men wait to receive money from the international committee of the Red Cross, $10 at most. Right after their release from prison, the new Kandahar government gave them a gift of 500 Afghan rupies, less than 50 cents.

In the evening, the former prisoners get a lift to the security ministry. The mood has changed since the afternoon, more upbeat. No tears as they describe what they've endured.

"The Taliban behaved like fascists towards us, like people in the second World War. During my three years in prison, I witnessed 40 people die from beatings and starvation."

More men arrive from Kandahar, just in time for dinner. They embrace. Tomorrow they'll go their separate ways. The prisoners say they lived on bread and water, some of them for more than seven years. Tonight they'll get a good meal.

For some of them, this will be their first good meal since being released from prison, and tomorrow they'll continue their journeys home to reunite with their families.

Nothing fancy, bread, lots of it, cookies and hot tea. If the men are disappointed by the menu, they give no indication. This meal could never compete with what they're expecting at home.

Iman Oden (ph) was 12 years old when the Taliban imprisoned him. Now, he's 16.

"When my mother sees me for the first time, she'll hug me and hold me and cry, of course."

The embrace of a mother, the taste of an apple, these men know better than most of us how cruel and how sweet life can be. Jason Bellini, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.

BROWN: And that's our report for tonight. Tomorrow, we anticipate sometime during the afternoon the White House will release the bin Laden tape. We'll carry that live when it happens, and we'll see you tomorrow night at 10:00. Until then, goodnight for all of us at NewsNight.

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BROWN: Eleven o'clock here in the East and these are the latest developments in America's New War. The White House says the tape of Osama bin Laden, the one we hoped we would get tonight, might be out tomorrow, probably. Sources say the tape held back -

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