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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Bin Laden Confessional Tape Released
Aired December 13, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. It was creepy, wasn't it, that tape? It was creepy and repulsive, and just about another sickening adjective you can apply to the bin Laden tape seems to fit. It didn't matter that we'd known for days that he was on it, didn't matter that we were convinced early on that bin Laden was behind the horrible attacks. Just hearing him, seeing him, reading the words was unexpectedly powerful.
NEWSNIGHT writer Linda Keenan said it seemed like a window into an alternative universe. And in this universe, friends sit around reminiscing about a job well done, like it could be a project or a presentation at work, except here the job well done is the murder of thousands of innocent people.
Bin Laden, like so many of us, recalls exactly where he was when he first heard that a plane had hit the Trade Center. Then there is his delight at the damage and the death tolls, far higher than he imagined or planned. And through it all, and maybe this is the most sickening part, he and his friends repeatedly say "Allah be praised." Fifty times, at our count, God's name is invoked. Whose God would that be? Not Islam's. That's for sure.
Tonight we'll look at what bin Laden said and what different audiences are hearing in those words. In the Arab world, where some have been demanding proof of bin Laden's guilt, mixed reaction tonight. Not clear whether this will be decisive for them.
We'll hear from an audience of Americans, too, from firemen in New York, Arab-Americans in Detroit, plenty of other people, too, including a woman who wonders, as do we, if the tape will in the end will make much difference.
Fresh reminders that what happened September 11 didn't end on September 11. Another body pulled from Ground Zero today.
And also this week, a man died. He'd been hit by falling debris on the morning of the 11. And a widow committed suicide, a friend saying she just lost her will to live after losing her husband.
And thousands of miles away, U.S. bombs seemed to toughen the resolve of the al Qaeda holdouts in Tora Bora. Some fighters telling CNN they are ready either for victory or martyrdom.
We'll spend much of the hour on the tape and related events. We have brought together a number of people to help us understand it all, a couple of journalists from the Muslim world. Essayist Ann Taylor Fleming joins us, as does former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. She'll talk to us about the tape, the war, the turmoil in the Middle East. And should time allow, we hope it does, the president's decision today to withdraw from the ABM Treaty, an important story somewhat lost in the war and the tape.
Before we hear from them, we begin as we always do with our whip around the world and the correspondents who are covering it. Tonight we start with CNN's David Ensor in Washington, on the tape. David, a headline, please.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it's not often, as you say, that the world gets a chance to see a man who's been accused of mass murder chatting about it at a dinner party with an admirer. That's what we saw today. I have the highlights lined up, and some of the points U.S. officials think are particularly interesting, or particularly worrying.
BROWN: David, thank you. Back to you shortly. They were talking about those sorts of things exactly at the White House today. CNN's Kelly Wallace today at the White House for us. Kelly, a headline from you, please.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the headline is the administration's message today: The tape speaks for itself. People will draw their own conclusions. But U.S. officials hope the tape puts to rest any doubts that still exist in the Islamic world, and encourages moderate Arab leaders to speak out publicly against Osama bin Laden -- Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, back with you shortly as well. Tora Bora, Afghanistan, now. The war there rages. CNN's Brent Sadler is covering. Brent, a headline from you, please.
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, the mountain war here around Tora Bora is really heating up. Heavy overnight strikes by U.S. warplanes, and then just after dawn, a resumption of really heavy strikes in a very concentrated area in those mountains behind me.
This happening at the same time as the Eastern Alliance Afghan warriors are saying they're going to make major breakthroughs in the fight to drive al Qaeda from their hideouts -- Aaron.
BROWN: Brent, thank you. Back with all of you shortly, but we'll start with a longer look at the tape, what bin Laden said, and also how he said it, which in some ways is the most interesting, at least that we saw, today. CNN's David Ensor has probably seen this tape as much as anyone on the planet today, and David gets to start it again. From Washington, David, good evening.
ENSOR: Aaron, what strikes you perhaps first is the almost lighthearted, genial tone that Osama bin Laden takes as he describes the tradecraft of terror to this fawning admirer who he is visiting with outside Kandahar, as we understand. It's a dinner party discussion of how he brought about the death of thousands. The tape is quite simply extraordinary.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Recorded in early November, the tape shows Osama bin Laden with Shaykh Sulayman, a visitor from Saudi Arabia. Over dinner they laugh and celebrate the attacks, with bin Laden saying the death told far exceeded his fondest hopes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QAEDA LEADER: ... we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: The complete collapse of the towers was something not even bin Laden, who once worked in his family's construction business, could predict. Repeatedly on the tape, bin Laden makes clear he helped organize the attacks. He names Mohammed Atta as being in charge of the hijackers, and says many of them did not know until moments before that they would die on that day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
BIN LADEN: The brothers who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: Throughout the tape, bin Laden and his guests and others are clearly in a jovial mood, praising Allah and talking about the joy they and others felt when they learned their plot had succeeded so dramatically. Bin Laden speaks explicitly of knowing in advance when the attacks would come.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
BIN LADEN: We were at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on.
(END VIDEO CLIP) ENSOR: There is also a chilling suggestion that additional attacks may be planned, but it comes from bin Laden's friend, Shaykh Sulayman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
SHAYKH: No doubt it is a clear victory. Allah has bestowed on us... honor on us... and he will give us blessing and more victory during this holy month of Ramadan. And this is what everyone is hoping for. Thank Allah America came out of its caves. We hit her the first hit and the next one will hit her with the hands of the believers, the good believers, the strong believers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: U.S. officials also point to bin Laden saying that not even his spokesman, a close aide, knew until he heard it on the radio that September 11 was the day for the attacks. That stress -- that underscores that the al Qaeda compartmentalized information in a way that made it a very difficult intelligence target, U.S. officials say. Difficult that is, obviously until today -- Aaron.
BROWN: All right, David, a couple of things. What do we know any more today about how the tape was found?
ENSOR: We don't know any more, basically. It was found in a Jalalabad private home. Whether it was purchased, whether someone was bribed, whether another intelligence service got it, whether someone, even perhaps the person that took the film turned it over, they are not going to say. It's a matter of protecting sources and methods. The indication I get is that there may be additional information available as long as the sources and methods used in this case are not revealed.
BROWN: Is there any reason to believe there's more on the tape than was shown today?
ENSOR: None that I'm aware of. In fact, we didn't show it here, but as you remember earlier today when the whole tape was shown, there was all sorts of outtakes of fallen helicopters and people singing songs. Basically it was someone's home video. And it seemed to be all there.
BROWN: And let me ask you one of those questions I know people who are sitting where you're sitting hate, when someone sitting where I'm sitting ask: you knew what was on the tape. You've been talking to people for several days about it. When you finally saw it, were you surprised?
ENSOR: I guess when you finally see it, it really comes home, how banal this guy is. And it is sort of dramatic to see it on tape. There were a couple of little things that were not quite as advertised. They had said that bin Laden would say on the tape that these people were sent -- some of them, were sent to their deaths, the hijackers were sent to their deaths without knowing they would be committing suicide. In fact, what he said was they were all candidates for martyrdom, they'd all agreed to die. They just didn't know it would be happening on that day.
So, some of it didn't quite match the advanced billing.
BROWN: But on balance, it did.
ENSOR: Yes, I'd say.
BROWN: David, thank you. We're old friends and so I can ask you a question like that.
ENSOR: That's right.
BROWN: Thank you. David Ensor in Washington tonight. A long day for him.
The Bush administration struggled a bit on whether to release the tape at all. There were interesting reasons for and against releasing the tapes. Americans, by and large, didn't need any convincing, and in that regard, the tape probably didn't matter much in the United States. There was concern about giving bin Laden a platform around the world.
Consider now for a moment, that the tape in total wasn't really meant for an American audience, but an Arab audience, moderate Arab leaders, who perhaps now will find it harder to ignore bin Laden and the support that he gets in that part of the world. At least that's one hope of the administration.
Back to CNN's Kelly Wallace at the White House. Kelly, good evening to you.
WALLACE: Good evening to you, Aaron.
That is certainly one hope of the Bush administration. And you know, U.S. officials would not say if they are encouraging or privately nudging moderate Arab leaders to make sure this tape is played in their country, and also to speak out publicly about it. But the White House is making this tape available in Arabic to any country or news organization which wants it.
U.S. officials are hoping that bin Laden's words will silence the administration's critics and strengthen the president's support here at home.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): They watched the Osama bin Laden tape in silence at a restaurant near Ground Zero. The tape, only reinforcing their steely resolve.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to see him dead, actually.
WALLACE: They also watched throughout the Arab and Muslim world, from Afghanistan to Jordan to Egypt -- some questions about bin Laden's culpability apparently put to rest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that this tape proves that Osama bin Laden has a big relationship with what happened in the United States on the 11th of September.
WALLACE: But many others rejected the tape out of hand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In my opinion, it is a fabrication. The film was made to condemn him.
WALLACE: The public line from the White House: People can draw their own conclusions. But U.S. officials privately hope that these images of bin Laden laughing at the destruction solidify American support for a lengthy war against terror, and perhaps erase some doubts on the streets of the Muslim world.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: How could there be a doubt in anyone's mind any longer about what we have said from the very, very beginning? That he was the mastermind, he is the head of an organization that participates in this kind of evil activity.
WALLACE: Aides say after President Bush first saw the tape on November 30, he wanted to make it public as long it was authentic and did not impact future intelligence gathering.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think the president's approach all along has been if it doesn't compromise intelligence, we're a democracy. The information should be shared, not only on this, but on all matters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: But the administration continues to remain reluctant to release other evidence against Osama bin Laden. And, Aaron, it is no secret that the administration kind of releasing this tape a bit faster than it would have preferred to do. After the story broke over the weekend the White House felt pressure to get it out quickly. Had that story never been leaked, we might not have seen this tape on this day.
Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: Well, that's an intriguing way to end your report, thank you very much. Tell me why. Why not today? Why any other day? What is their concern about releasing it now?
WALLACE: Well, the administration would have preferred, it says, to work on its own timetable. You know, the president saw this tape back on November 30. Aides say that they were looking at the tape to make sure it was authentic, and going over it, and going over the translation. And they really felt, after the report was leaked over the weekend, they really felt sort of this groundswell of "where is tape, we need it now."
So they felt kind of under the gun to get it out quickly. They would have preferred to spend a little more time, go over it a little bit more, have more people look at it. They just felt that once the tape was leaked, they absolutely had to get it out quickly.
BROWN: Kelly, thanks. Kelly Wallace at the White House tonight on White House strategy in all of this.
Now the real point of the last three months, finding Osama bin Laden. There are new reports tonight that he is pinned down along with his al Qaeda forces in a series of caves near Tora Bora. No one knows for sure if he is inside, who, exactly, is in those caves. But for the last two days, allied fighters have been trying to persuade him to surrender. Words didn't work. Perhaps bombs will prove more persuasive.
Once again, we go to Tora Bora and CNN's Brent Sadler. It's morning there, so good morning to you.
SADLER: Good morning, Aaron. Yes, indeed. Those bombs you just talked about are now falling in heavy numbers from the sky. As we woke up this morning, a resumption of airstrikes in those hills behind me, those mountain peaks, where it's thought a strong sense of feeling among the Eastern Alliance Afghan commanders, that Osama bin Laden himself is up there. And that explains why there's such a heavy concentration of air power and also a great deal, we understand, of activity by special forces in valleys way up in those mountains, really honing in now on bin Laden, they believe, and his top leadership.
Through the night -- we can show you some night scope video here. Again, this area pounded by U.S. warplanes. We know that daisy cutters have been used, those giant 15,000-pound bombs which cause so much devastation. We also hear throughout the night, continuing sorties by C-130 gunships, attacking the areas, the strongholds of al Qaeda, remnants still in those mountains. Remnants, incidentally, which on radio talk, are still saying they want to continue with Jihad against America, regardless of what happens in this mountain war.
And then again this morning, we saw in the clear blue skies over the White Mountains here in eastern Afghanistan, a return of the heavy bombers, B-52s circling overhead, coming in, taking a look, doing recon runs over the mountains, and then flying away, turning around, and again hitting those areas behind me.
Now, we also saw smaller aircraft, fighter bombers lining up for action as well. And during a period of attacks about 10, 15 minutes ago, one of those weapons certainly clearly missed the target. We have video of that, of the aftermath of the detonation. But the rising smoke, just a couple of miles from the media encampment at the foot of the Tora Bora mountain range.
A big explosion -- it shook us all up. But nobody, of course, was injured. It was far too far away. But several miles away from the area of intense activity which is going on as I talk to you now -- Aaron.
BROWN: Brent, give me an idea, if you can, why they feel so certain, because we've been getting reports, both out of Afghanistan and from the Pentagon too, today, that they feel certain bin Laden is still there. Why do they feel certain bin Laden is still there?
SADLER: Two explanations for that really, Aaron. First of all, that surrender you were talking about, possible surrender at the beginning of this segment. It's thought by many observers on the ground here that the Eastern Alliance commanders wouldn't have suggested a deal whereby hundreds of al Qaeda and guerrillas could be let go from here, walk free, as preposterous as that sounds, if bin Laden and about 20 of his top aides gave themselves up.
They wouldn't have offered that deal, it's thought here, unless they had a pretty good idea he was up there. They've got their own men up in the mountains. They have their own good intelligence reports. And there's the special operations forces. We know they lay up during the day. We know they do their work during the night. So there is that reason.
There's also the expectation that because there's so much air activity going on now, and because it's confined to such a short space of short area in the mountains behind me, that really there's a sense that they're closing in. And really, these al Qaeda terrorists are really hanging on here. If you think about the enormity of the air power that's been thrown down on those mountains behind me, someone has to have the backbone to keep that going. And that backbone, they think, is bin Laden -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you. Brent Sadler in Tora Bora tonight, as the hunt for bin Laden goes on. Thanks for joining us.
Coming up still on NEWSNIGHT, the reaction in this country and in the Muslim world as well, to the tapes. Hearing some of the reaction makes you wonder whether people were actually watching two different versions. You'll hear some of that, as NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A friend e-mailed me this morning asking what I thought as the tape was playing out. It's the kind of question that was asked in lots of places all over the country today. We sent crews to a number of them, and here is some of what we heard.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): First stop, a firehouse in Brooklyn, where eight men were lost on the 11th.
KEVIN BYRNES, NYC FIREFIGHTER: He destroyed so many lives and they're sitting there having a good time, laughing. I don't understand that.
BROWN: Next, to the Arab-American Chamber of Commerce outside Detroit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy does not represent Islam. He doesn't even have a semblance of what the meaning of Islam is.
BROWN: This living room is in Virginia. STEPHEN PUSH, LOST WIFE IN PENTAGON CRASH: The only thing that surprises me -- and actually, I find, in a way, encouraging, is how conceited and undisciplined Osama bin Laden is. To make a full confession on videotape was not the smartest thing to do.
BROWN: Stephen Push lost his wife that day when the plane crashed into the Pentagon.
PUSH: Nothing in this tape made that any worse than it already is, but kind of a sorrow about the human condition, that we still live in a world where there are people like this who, not only can give vent to their own perverted ideas, but actually can find a following among other people and encourage them to commit acts like this.
BROWN: Back in New York, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani watched the tape and had this to say.
RUDY GIULIANI, MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Obviously this man is a personification of evil. He delights in having destroyed innocent human life. Whether he is telling the truth or he isn't about his anticipation of how many people would die or how many people he would kill, he seem delighted at having killed more people than he anticipated, which leaves you wondering just how -- just how -- just how deep his evil heart and soul really is.
BROWN: Across the country, a lot of people took time to stop and look, and wonder if the tape really matters at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's kind of what we expected. And the only thing I'm concerned about now is the Arab people may not believe that what he said, you know, actually was what he said. They feel that we've doctored the tape, and I'm a little concerned about that.
BROWN: Back in Brooklyn on the walls of Firehouse 118 there's a collage to the 18 firefighters killed on September 11. Today more sorrow there, than anger.
JOHN SORRENTINO, NYC FIREFIGHTER: We're kind of spent on our anger. That's why you're not getting that angry reaction around here. Right now, we're more concerned with what's going on in the firehouse, the families. We're trying to help them out.
CHRIS MURRAY, NYC FIREFIGHTER: He's talking about facing America, he's talking about us facing him. And now this guy's hiding in caves. And I've said this for a while. You're living in caves, you're going to die in a cave. And he's like a rat. He's like a rat.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Reaction around the country today. Here's a little bit more. One former prosecutor said this after watching the tape: "It's more than a smoking gun. It's a smoking Howitzer." Apparently, that depends on who you are and how much you trust the U.S. government. And in the Arab world, as we've been saying, an important target for this tape, the reviews now are mixed.
A couple of looks tonight, beginning first in Cairo and CNN's James Martone.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMES MARTONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Almost four hours after its release in the U.S., Egypt's state-run television broadcast bits of the bin Laden tape. "The U.S. released a tape today, saying it showed bin Laden was aware of the September 11th attacks on New York," reported the channel one, Washington-based correspondent.
At this Cairo cafe, men after the day's long Ramadan fast had already seen the tape on cable TV's al Jazeera. They weren't convinced.
"Islam forbids killing innocents," says this man. "The tape doesn't prove anything. And don't forget, the U.S. supported bin Laden when he was fighting the Soviets," he says.
Men here claimed the tape was a U.S. fabrication, and questioned the timing of its release.
"This is U.S. propaganda, to take attention from the situation in Palestine and attempts to get rid of Arafat," this man alleges.
On Egyptian streets, reactions to the tape are similar to the reactions to the U.S.-led strikes in Afghanistan.
(on camera): People say they fear it is a war on Muslims, that America's only concerned now that it's been hit, but does nothing when Muslims are hit in Iraq or Palestine.
(voice-over): Earlier in the day, Egypt's newspapers reported on more strikes in Afghanistan and continued Israeli attacks in the West Bank and Gaza.
"What Sharon is doing is terrorism," said this man, "but what is the U.S. doing about that?"
And other readers asked, "Why, when Israelis are killed, does the U.S. react, but when Palestinians under occupation are bombed and killed, no one says anything?" The Arab League states, most of whom publicly support the U.S.-led war on terror, announced Thursday "urgent consultations," to halt what they term "the terrorist acts of Israel against Palestine."
James Martone, CNN, Cairo.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The most widely-viewed news source across the Arab world is al Jazeera. It came up in James' report. It's the Arab language news network. How al Jazeera played this story, this tape, we thought might tell us a fair amount about how the Arab world is going to react to it. Today, among others, they featured an expert on Islamic groups, Hani Sebai (ph). Here's some of what he had to say while he was viewing a portion of that video that did not show bin Laden talking. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANI SEBAI (PH), ARABIC EXPERT (through translator): There are too many things in the tape that seems to me like a fabrication in the United States. They can't be used as evidence against bin Laden. This tape should have been shown only in a court of justice, not shown on televisions around the globe. We all know that technology can make magic. They can make a man sound like a kid and a woman's voice sound like a man. So this video shows a lack of America to prove bin Laden's guilt.
How about the house where the tape was found? No one knows anything about it. This whole thing is sketchy to me. The White House said yesterday that bin Laden knew he was being filmed, and gave interviews to al Jazeera that were perfectly edited and done, and would do such a low quality tape? That's not bin Laden's perfection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Part of the view from al Jazeera today, certainly not all of it. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, journalists from this country, from the Muslim world, will join us to talk about the tape, what they're hearing, what they think and what they saw. NEWSNIGHT, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There are quite a few moments in the bin Laden tape where he appears to us, at least, to reveal his advanced knowledge of the attacks in some detail, and this is one of them. After saying that people around him were overjoyed when the first plane hit, he told them be patient. He then goes on to plot out the time difference between the attacks on the north tower and the south tower and the Pentagon.
From the American perspective, it's hard to imagine many people aren't convinced by these tape. But as you've just seen, it's not necessarily true in other parts of the world. So we'll look at some of that tonight. We're joined in New York by Michael Elliott, of "TIME" magazine and editor-at-large at "TIME." And Raghida Dergham, the senior diplomatic correspondent for London's "Al-Hayat" newspaper. In Washington, Nader Zaidi, the chief correspondent for the "Daily Jang," Pakistan's largest paper. And we're glad you are all here.
Ladies, first. What's the newspaper headline tomorrow, by the way? I see you brought that.
RAGHIDA DERGHAM, SENIOR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT, "AL-HAYAT," LONDON: Yes, I did, because the piece a little earlier was leaving the impression as if the Arab world was now saying, no, no, we're not going to submit that this is a fact.
But I was saying that at least in my paper it's made it clear as well as in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) they are saying, what attracted my attention is that the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which is more of a paper that would resist having such a headline. It says, "Bin Laden Confesses That he Planned for the Attacks." And for me, this is very much the contrary of what I'm hearing on some of that report in some of the networks reporting as to the Arab reaction.
There is more than one voice. You'll have the skeptics, they will remain skeptics. But I think those who have been in denial -- because it's been embarrassing to admit that there's one of us who has done this -- those of -- I think, will have to change their minds and will change their minds and will be empowered by the tape that was released today.
AARON BROWN, ANCHOR: Excuse me. Michael, do you think minds were changed today?
MICHAEL ELLIOTT, EDITOR, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, I think Raghida makes an absolutely crucial point. Some peoples' minds will never be changed. I mean, there will always be a hard core for whom the United States is an enemy, for whom Bin Laden or someone like him is a hero.
And then there are those who may dislike American policies -- which they are entirely entitled to do -- who may want to maintain their own traditions and religions, which they are entirely entitled to do. And what we have to do is persuade them not to the throw their lot in with murderous terrorists.
And it seems to me that the tape is useful. At the same time as we are winning on the battlefield and saying to people, "you go on this side, you are putting yourself with a murder -- a mass murderer -- someone who giggles at mass murder, and a loser." And -- and I think -- I think the tape can help get that message across. So I -- I think it's pretty important, Aaron.
BROWN: Nayyar, let me get your take on this too. When you saw the tape, you'd been reading about it for days, like the rest of us. Were you surprised by any of it and are you surprised at all by this first wave of reaction to it?
NAYYAR ZAIDI, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "DAILY JANG," PAKISTAN: Well, as far as the text is concerned I think that it's remarkable and would be a major PR tool for the U.S. government domestically.
But when you look at the tape, the major issue is, is it authentic? It's not whether Bin Laden is guilty or not. Most people think that he is guilty. But is this evidence authentic?
The reaction, as my colleagues have said earlier, people who sympathize with the defendant -- which is Bin Laden -- would not believe it, would question it. And people who sympathize with the victims I think, or victims themselves, would, you know, just -- just believe it on its face value. So I'm not surprised at the reaction.
BROWN: Are -- is the argument going to be in part that the tape exists at all? The how-stupid-can-you-be-to-make-a-tape-like-this argument?
ZAIDI: Well, there are -- there are many arguments. First, on one hand, Bin Laden was so remarkable that he knew about the attack on the Thursday before the Tuesday it happened. And we have a National Security Agency and all, nobody knew about that.
They are so smart. They are so compartmentalized that nobody got the wind of it. Suddenly they make a tape. And not only they make a tape for their archives, they leave it in a house to be found?
And as somebody pointed out, that he had given an interview to al Jazeera, he had given an interview to the Pakistani journalists. He could -- if he wanted to claim responsibility, I think those were the forums to say, "yes, I did it."
And -- and if someone were to paint a villain like giggling at murder, they kind they show -- show in movies, the villain laughing -- well, this is the perfect thing.
BROWN: Raghida?
DERGHAM: Well, yes, I think -- I was just saying to Mike when we were in the greenroom, why would they tape -- record such a tape to begin with? I mean, at least as Osama Bin Laden...
BROWN: May I offer -- may I offer a thought on that?
DERGHAM: Yes.
BROWN: Because -- because you believe you're on -- you're doing God's work -- or you say you believe that -- and you're incredibly arrogant about it all and you don't actually think they are going to get you. How's that?
DERGHAM: That's possible. That's possible. However -- however, you know, the -- again, it is mindboggling that you implicate yourself in -- in...
ELLIOTT: This tape -- this tape was not intended to be shown publicly. I mean, this -- this tape is "My Vacation in the Hindu Kush." You know. I mean, it's a...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Raghida, hang on. We'll give you the last word.
ELLIOTT: It's a supporter of Bin Laden who goes there. He's obviously tremendously honored to be there. I mean, incredibly deferential. With -- with, one has to assume, a friend who is kind of filming it I suppose not entirely for private consumption.
I mean, maybe he would go back to Saudi Arabia -- if that's where they came from -- and be shown to some friends. But it was surely not intended for public consumption.
DERGHAM: No.
ELLIOTT: I mean, you know, there's a wonderful moment during the helicopter scene where, like all of us, he hasn't switched the video recorder off as he's carrying it along the ground.
BROWN: Right. Right.
ELLIOTT: You know. So I mean, it wasn't intended for public consumption.
BROWN: Let me give Nayyar the last word because I heard him trying to get in. You got it.
BROWN: Well, the time frame for the tape is second -- I think about ninth or tenth of November. By that time, Mazar-e Sharif was taken. They had been bombed for 30 days. Carpet bombing. I don't know how such a tape could be made.
And then whoever made it, why did he leave it? Whoever made a tape by then would have known that he -- he or she could sell it for one million dollars in the Western world. So why leave it in a house?
BROWN: Nayyar, let me -- let me ask this really directly, OK?
ZAIDI: OK.
BROWN: Do you believe -- this is yes or no -- do you believe the tape is a fake?
ZAIDI: I have serious reservations about the authenticity of the tape.
BROWN: Thanks for joining us, all of us. It's good to talk to you. Nice to see you. You'll be back.
There's a whole -- by the way, a whole Saudi thing we should have -- we'll come back and talk about another time. It's one of the strangest parts of this. When we come back we'll talk with former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A little more perspective now on Bin Laden, on the war and our world today. In a moment we'll be joined by a woman who until just a few months ago played a major role in shaping that world. We want her take on things. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.
First, though, a look at where things stand in a number of places around the world relevant to our conversation.
President Bush today made it official, giving Russia formal notice the United States intends to pull out of the ABM treaty. Scrapping the treaty gives the United States much more leeway to develop and deploy a ballistic -- antiballistic missile system. The Russian president called this a mistake, but not a security threat to Russia.
A day after cutting off contact with Yasser Arafat, the Israeli government continues to send him a military message. Once again today, airstrikes in Gaza City, among other places, aimed at Yasser Arafat's Palestinian authority. 15 people wounded. Israel saying Arafat can put an end to the attacks by cracking down on terrorism.
And Islamic militants today are suspected in a suicide attack on India's parliament building. Five heavily-armed men tried to get inside. One blew himself up. Four others died in a gunfight with security forces. In all, at least 12 people died, 18 were wounded.
A rough world today. All right. Madeleine Albright, former secretary of state is with us. You'd have had a full day if you had been on the job today.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: It really...
BROWN: You never would have gotten off the phone.
ALBRIGHT: Very hard. And when I woke up this morning and I heard about the Indian parliament issue. I thought, very hard to have another front opened here. I think it's very tough.
BROWN: Let's just go down through a number of these. The Israelis yesterday said -- they've been saying, actually, in one way or another for a couple weeks now -- that Mr. Arafat is irrelevant. They're going to have no contact with him. If not talk to him, who? Who do they do business with?
ALBRIGHT: Well, that's the problem. I think that he is the leader. And though I think he is weakened by his own inaction and his inability to deal with this issue, it went spinning out into a chaotic situation.
And you can declare that you don't want to deal with him because he is not doing something, but there is not another address, so to speak. And he needs to crack down on the terrorists and do all the things that the Israelis and the rest of the world have been asking him.
But I know there is this temptation to basically say, "I'm not going to talk to him," or cut off relations. But then how do you get back at it? And you need have the ability to talk to people, even if you completely disagree with them.
BROWN: It's always, I think, difficult for people in your situation, former secretaries of state, former presidents. So we gently ask, what does the United States do here diplomatically to try and get this thing back on track in the middle east? Anything?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that it's very important to keep General Zinni there in order to have at least a voice...
BROWN: He's the U.S. envoy.
ALBRIGHT: U.S. envoy. I actually wish that we'd had an envoy there of some kind earlier. This is a very complex issue and if the United States is not involved -- either behind the scenes or in front -- things spin out of control. And I know it's hard to stay there, but I think that it's essential to be able to offer some kind of a framework. And we also...
BROWN: You mean physically there? In the region?
ALBRIGHT: Well, part of it -- in the region or close by or available and be able to be a channel for communication. But I also know that very smart people and people here in this country believe that we should just cut of -- we should cut off relations.
And -- my only concern generally as a negotiator is, how do you get back in it? How do you -- sometimes ultimatums have a way of being against yourself. And so it's important to leave some space in order to be able to get back.
BROWN: ABM Treaty. Give me your take on it.
ALBRIGHT: Well, I think it is mistake. I think it's important, however, to focus on what relations with Russia are going to be. We do not want to get into a relationship where there is no written agreement, where everything is kind of free floating.
I think the ABM Treaty could have been amended. It had been amended before. Something that we tried to do. And I think it's a mistake. It's basically part of this administration's treaty allergy. You've got to be able in a civilized world to be able to have treaties that you abide by, that you change, that provide a strategic framework for operation.
BROWN: Does September 11 in -- either strengthen the argument against the ABM or the reverse? I mean, is it -- I mean, this is classic asymmetrical warfare. It's a nontraditional weapon. I mean, you can almost make the argument either way.
ALBRIGHT: Well, we have a lot of, obviously, threats against this country. We have a threat that needs to dealt with on a much more basic level than antimissile. That is not what the threat is.
BROWN: Right.
ALBRIGHT: I think we need -- we believe that we need to continue research and development. But why at this point create a situation where Russia -- that has really been helping and cooperative -- or the Europeans or the Chinese or various countries that have been part of the coalition, why at this moment decide that you have to be so fixated on getting out of the ABM that you create problems that you don't need at this point? I just think it's an unnecessary step and not something that is useful in the current threat situation.
BROWN: About a minute left. Did you see the tape today?
ALBRIGHT: I've heard about it. I haven't actually...
BROWN: So you haven't read the transcript?
ALBRIGHT: I have read the transcript.
BROWN: What -- what did you think when you heard him? ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that he's indicted himself. And I know that there are lots of discussion as to whether it's fake or not or why it's not the same quality.
He obviously -- this is -- he is filled with hubris and a sense that he can get away with anything. I think it's a disgusting tape.
BROWN: Do you think that these moderate Arab governments will step up more vocally than perhaps they have because of the tape or in fact the problems they have that have kept them quiet haven't been -- haven't changed at all?
ALBRIGHT: I think there's not one reaction to it. I think there will be those who see this as an opportunity. I was interested in what Amr Moussa (ph), the head of the Arab League, was saying. And I think that they have an opportunity now to separate themselves and to make clear that this is not what Islam is. And this is an opportunity for them. I hope they take it.
BROWN: I hope you'll take the invitation to come back and see us again.
ALBRIGHT: Aaron, we'll be pleased to. Very nice to...
BROWN: Thank you. You almost said any time, and I was going to hold you to that.
ALBRIGHT: I think I can do that.
BROWN: It's nice to see you. Thank you.
ALBRIGHT: Nice to see you.
BROWN: Former Secretary of State Madeleine albright.
ALBRIGHT: Thank you.
BROWN: I'll lean over and do that too. We'll talk with Anne Taylor Fleming in a moment, get her take on all of this. NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Another take on the tape now. We're always happy to get a visit from our next guest. Anne Taylor Fleming has a terrific feel for the culture and writes about it, an essayist. She's a regular contributor to the "News Hour with Jim Lehrer." And she joins us from Los Angeles tonight. It's nice to see you.
ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING, ESSAYIST: Thank you.
BROWN: When you watched the tape today, what was -- what was your take on it? Were you surprised by it? Or your reaction to it.
FLEMING: I wasn't surprised, really, by either of those. I guess I was surprised by two things: the first thing was how amazingly banal it seemed.
Now, there's a wonderful phrase by a philosopher named Hannah Arendt. She was talking about Hitler and the Holocaust, and the phrase was "the banality of evil."
And when you saw him, it seemed so everyday, so commonplace. And I think my strong reaction was -- was that and my sense that oh, boy, do you have to be vigilant about the banality of evil. You have to keep your eyes out for it.
And the other thing was I think a sort of perverse sense of relief that indeed if it's authentic -- and we're going to take it as such -- that it's proof and that it makes us feel as Americans that what we've been doing there is both just and justified.
I know we've talked a lot about that it's playing -- how it's playing in the Arab world, and that maybe it isn't such a big deal in this country. I think it is a big deal. I think that that kind of proof -- I know it makes my gut feel better. And that was -- that was a big part of my reaction today.
BROWN: Do you -- do you think there -- there is -- there has been among fellow Americans a little bit of doubt that Bin Laden was everything or all of the things, at least, the government had been saying?
FLEMING: I'm not sure, Aaron. That's -- you know, some doubt. Just a little. And gosh, isn't this the best reminder in the world to show the American people everything? Don't hide it. Let them see what you've got.
And that's the other thing I came away from, saying, you know, as we -- as we go into this secrecy mode, let's be real careful. Because I think this tape is very important for people who will sleep better tonight knowing that indeed this is the face of evil, that he is who they said he was or we suspected. But it finally pushes it over, even in American hearts and -- hearts and minds.
BROWN: I was at -- I was at a dinner a few weeks ago and the person I was sitting next to was making the argument that when used the word evil -- you just used it, I've used it a lot -- that it has a way of shutting down conversation, that -- that evil is the worst we can say and so we never go beyond it. We never really think this thing through. Do you want to at all reconsider the use of the word there?
FLEMING: I think that's a very,very smart point. And you know, I think it behooves those of us who words to try to use them carefully. I like the phrase "banality of evil," and that seems to me to restore some of the evil to evil, as it were.
But I do -- but I do think it's a very, very good point. And you know, that every time Bush says, you know, "the evil one" it loses its sting and it becomes more commonplace. And we don't register it the way we should. So it behooves you and me, sitting here, to think of a different word than evil. You know, it's -- it's the face of -- of anti humanity. It's the face of destruction. It's the face of doom.
I mean, I don't think you have any doubt watching that cat-like expression, that sort of feline, manipulative, joyous expression on his face that, you know, with a nuclear bomb in his hand there isn't anything he wouldn't have done.
So, you know, I like to think that given enough time we would use other words. And I think that's a really smart point.
BROWN: That was funny, because I told her she was wrong at the dinner.
FLEMING: I think she's right.
BROWN: Yeah, I'm beginning to think so too. But I was in a mood. Can you...
FLEMING: I just think if we use words reflexively we stop communicating the meaning behind them. And -- and I think that the evil has just been so tossed around and trivialized that -- that maybe we do have to think -- I mean, you know, the doom, destruction -- I mean, it's the ultimate, you know, inhumanity that he represents, at its basest and most vile level.
BROWN: It's hard to imagine, watching a more -- for me -- a more powerful 30 or 40 minutes than that was today, given all that's gone on in the last three, three and a half months. It's unbelievable.
FLEMING: It's a very sly power, you know. You know, you watch him and again, it's that banality. That -- they could be talking about going to the market.
You know, the last time I was here we were looking at the Afghan women -- or the time -- and I was just thinking what a counterpoint that was, the moment of absolute elation when you could see the women unveiled.
And now to see this today and see the other face of it. But I do think -- I just want to -- I do think it's so positive that all this is made public. And you know, I am real trepidations about the idea of -- of secret trials. I think the American people need to see this kind of thing. They need to register it in all its odiousness and hideousness.
BROWN: Anne?
FLEMING: Yeah?
BROWN: Nice to see you.
FLEMING: You too.
BROWN: Have a terrific holiday. FLEMING: You too.
BROWN: Thank you. Anne Taylor Fleming from Los Angeles. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It seemed like the right place to end the program tonight is where this all began, at ground zero, given all that we've talked about today.
They found another body today. 3019 now people believed to have a died that day, on September 11th. 93 days ago. 4967 confirmed dead, including the person they brought out today. Another 189 died at the Pentagon. 64 on the plane. 125 in the building, 44 more in Pennsylvania. 93 days ago.
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good night.
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