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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Marines Working to Make Kandahar Airport More Secure; Discussion with Director of Homeland Security Tom Ridge; Questions for Kids in Afghanistan from American Kids
Aired December 17, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, NEWSNIGHT: Larry, thank you, and good evening again, everyone. I saw a poll today showing that only one in every 10 Americans would say that life has returned to normal.
When asked that question, I assume that people think normal is the way things used to be and in that regard, normal is gone and it's not coming back. Things aren't going to be the way they used to be, too much has changed.
Airports aren't going to be the way they used to be. Flying itself feels different these days. And it's been weeks since Senators have been able to use their office building, but normal is more than those things. Normal is a state of mind, and more than the towers went down on September 11th.
Normal collapsed because our national sense of well-being was attacked. So maybe the question needs to be changed by the pollsters, not have things return to normal, but are you growing more comfortable with the new normal, the normal of terrorist warnings and machine guns at the airport, the normal of looking closely at the mail and wondering, the normal that has you a bit nervous as you head home for the holidays this week?
It's the week before Christmas and what we want most, we can not have. We want the things the way they used to be. Absent that, I suppose, we would take Mr. bin Laden all wrapped up.
Anybody's guess is what one Pentagon spokesman said today when asked where bin Laden might be. He also compared the search for other al Qaeda fighters to searching for fleas on a dog; focus too much on one, and many others get away.
Some who didn't get away captured al Qaeda members being interrogated. A handful of them say they believe bin Laden is still holed up in Tora Bora.
And a site not seen since the early days of the first Bush White House, a U.S. flag raised at the former U.S. Embassy in Kabul, as the American Envoy to Afghanistan said today, this mission is open for business.
We'll spend quite a bit of time tonight on the hunt for bin Laden, get some help from someone who's met him journalist Peter Bergen. Also tonight, NEWSNIGHT's information from the post office in North Pole, Alaska. Yes, this is a Santa and anthrax mail story, but when this one tells a story, we don't worry about it being like everyone or anyone else's.
The same is true of Jason Bellini, who in a project with MTV reports tonight on kids in Afghanistan. That's where we're headed tonight, and we begin as we always do with our whip around the world and our correspondents covering it, beginning with Nic Robertson in Tora Bora.
Nic, a headline from you, please.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, no bombs here in the last 24 hours, that unusual in itself. The Eastern Alliance commanders say they still have their fighters out scouring the mountainside. They say as many as 200 al Qaeda members could still be hidden in the mountains.
And, of course the headline, there is no new news on Osama bin Laden. No one here seems to know where he's gone. Aaron?
BROWN: Nic, thank you. To the White House next, Senior White House Correspondent John King. John, a headline from you, please.
JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, patience and frustration the major themes here at the White House today, replacing the optimism and anticipation over the weekend.
Yes, the President said today he was certain Osama bin Laden would be brought to justice, but he also conceded the United States doesn't know where he is. It could take a day, the President said. He also said it could take a month, maybe even a year. Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. And now to Capitol Hill. Anthrax is the issue. Senate office building is the problem. Congressional correspondent Kate Snow is there. Kate, a headline, please.
KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the cleanup of the Hart Office Building is massive. It's supposed to be a model for the cleanup of other anthrax-laced buildings, and a lot of it is trial and error. But last night, it was error that took the day. In fact, now it's an error that they're going to have to correct. They'll have to come back to it and it will be even longer before the building reopens. Aaron?
BROWN: Kate, thank you. We'll get details from you, all of you in a moment. We begin with the battle that's over and the search that is not. In the kid's game hide-and-seek, the seeker has the tougher job. The person hiding just needed one good plan, one great place and the seeker could go past it 100 times and never see a thing.
So it is tonight in Tora Bora. Osama bin Laden is hiding. The Americans and others are doing the seeking, and so far advantage goes to the hider, so far.
We'll get things started with Nic Robertson in Tora Bora. Nic, good morning to you there.
ROBERTSON: Good morning, Aaron. It was a little over 24 hours ago that Eastern Alliance commanders came down from the mountain and said that the battle was over, that they'd overrun all the al Qaeda camps, that they'd searched the caves, that there was no sign of any al Qaeda members left.
The latest from them is that they are still looking, that they say that they have as many as 1,000 men still in the mountains searching. But now that the al Qaeda essentially been pushed way back, possibly trying to flee across the border to Pakistan, we were able to get up into the mountains and see some of those cave complexes.
We found caves there full of munitions, Chinese-made heavy machine gun rounds, mortar rounds in caves. And that weaponry, not indicative of a terrorist organization wanting to take its terror out on the capitols around the world, more indicative of an organization planning to make a last stand.
But what we found was, there was no indication of a last stand that they'd merely dumped and left all those munitions in the caves and taken off into the hills.
Now the Eastern Alliance commanders here have captured some al Qaeda members. It is a small handful, however, compared to the 2,000 or so that were rumored to have been inside the mountains behind me.
Now some of those, some of those captured al Qaeda members were Arab, some were Afghans. We saw some of them. They were paraded in front of journalists. One had his hand bandaged. Another had his foot bandaged. Most of them looked as if they didn't really want to engage with the journalists at all. They looked pretty downtrodden, looking at the ground most of the time.
But we were able to speak to some of them privately and they said that they believed Osama bin Laden had been in the mountains as recently as Saturday, but of course that is already several days ago. The bombing has stopped.
There was nothing overnight last night, and the best assessment here of commanders is that al Qaeda members up here will be trying to get south to Pakistan and cross the border there. Aaron.
BROWN: How porous is the border? How easy will it be for people to get across the border if they want to?
ROBERTSON: It's very mountainous. It's heavily forested and it's extensive. The problem for anyone trying to interdict people, sneaking across that border is that it is very, very long and it's a mountainous area. You would you need a huge number of troops to patrol it and Pakistan has moved additional troops into the region, not only as army that is put in there for the first time in the tribal region that's just across the border. The Pakistani government does not fully control the area across the border. It's what's known as a tribal region, which means it's essentially run by the local tribes. The government just has control over the main highways.
So they have put their army in. They have put local forces in as well. And on this side, the Eastern Alliance commanders say they got 1,000 men, but it needs many, many more than that to adequately seal that border. Aaron?
BROWN: And one other question on this. Do the people you are talking to, either the Americans or the Eastern Alliance people, believe that bin Laden is getting help if, in fact, he's trying to get away?
ROBERTSON: The best assessment of most people here is that there probably are pockets of help that he can count on. There probably are people sympathetic to his case and his position. Some of those may be in Pakistan. Some may be here in Afghanistan.
He could sneak back into the mountains and then come out of the mountains somewhere else and try and lay low back in Afghanistan, rather than cross to Pakistan.
But his best -- most of the people's best assessment is that his security absolutely does depend at this time on finding those sympathizers and it's quite likely, most people here say, that he had not only laid plans to hide out or hold out here in these mountains, but had also laid plans that if he ever needed to escape, that he had some places to go to en route to make that escape.
So he is, if he's doing it, he's very much likely to be doing it with some local help. Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson in Tora Bora, thanks for your work today. Two developments coming out of the White House, first on bin Laden and his whereabouts.
The second development of note, the President's health. I think it's fair to say we know more tonight about the second item than the first. We go back to CNN's John King, who is working on both those stories. John, why don't you start with bin Laden.
JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Starting with bin Laden, Aaron, over the weekend a great sense of optimism that the U.S. military with the help from those Afghan forces, had surrounded bin Laden somewhere in those mountains.
A great sense of uncertainty today replacing that optimism. President Bush, other senior administration officials saying publicly and privately that they can not be certain now.
Some U.S. officials say intelligence data supports the fact that perhaps bin Laden has a hideaway even higher up in those mountains you saw behind Nic Robertson in Tora Bora. Others say though they can not rule out the possibility that he has escaped across the border in the past 72 hours into Pakistan. Because of that, the search continues not only in the mountains, but increasingly along the border as well. And one key question is, will the Pakistani intelligence services cooperate with the United States.
There has been tension in the past. That was an agency that not long ago was closely aligned with Osama bin Laden. The President insisting today that Pakistan's support is constant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, the Pakistanis will help us and they are helping us look for not only one, Osama bin Laden but for all al Qaeda murderers and killers. They will be brought to justice and it's just a matter of time as far as I'm concerned.
We get all kinds of reports that he's in a cave, that he's not in a cave, that he's escaped, that he hasn't escaped. There's all kinds of speculation, but when the dust clears, we'll find out where he is and he'll be brought to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: No bombing today in the mountains as Nic noted, but U.S. officials telling us they are watching and listening very closely in that region, and they also say U.S. warplanes flying over the border region, and several sources saying tonight that some U.S. Special Forces even on the Pakistani side of that border, trying to monitor any al Qaeda troops trying to escape. Aaron.
BROWN: And John, on the President's health. We don't want to make too big a fuss out of this because it turns out to be nothing, but we ought to lay out what it was.
KING: Not that big of a deal the White House says, but when we saw the President, at that event today, it was very noticeable. He had two blotches, one on each cheek, so we asked the White House Press Secretary. He said the President had 4 lesions removed from his face last Friday by the White House doctors.
Two of them, the ones on the cheeks, were considered pre- cancerous lesions. They were taken off using liquid nitrogen, and because the doctors were removing those, they also removed two other non-cancerous lesions, the type that do not tend to become skin cancer.
The two on the cheek, if left untreated, do tend to become skin cancer. But they have been treated. They have been removed, very similar to three removed from the President's face back in August. They say this is a symptom millions of Americans have, millions of Americans like this President who likes to work and enjoy recreational activities outdoors. But they say the President is just final. Aaron. BROWN: John, thank you. John King at the White House tonight. Back now to Afghanistan. The first casualties among the Marines at the Kandahar Airport. The battle for the airport is over. They've taken control of it, but there is no more dangerous place in the world than Afghanistan because there's no place in the world believed to have more hidden land mines. And land mines, even those 20 years old, are dangerous.
More on the Marines from CNN's Mike Chinoy who join us on the videophone from the airport in Kandahar. Mike, good morning.
CHINOY: Good morning, Aaron. Well, the three Marines who were injured on Sunday are all reported to be in stable condition. Two remain at the other Marine base at Camp Rhino, south of here. The most seriously injured has been flown to a hospital in another part of this region.
We are outside Afghanistan. We are not being told exactly where he is, but we're told he's in stable condition, although he did lose a foot. Meanwhile, the Marines have been bringing in more men and materiel overnight, trying to make this airport secure.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHINOY (voice over): Explosions at Kandahar Airport, but this time set by the Marines, controlled blasts getting rid of some of the mines and other lethal ordinance that litter this place.
Ironically, the technicians who prepared these explosions were the same ones who on Sunday rescued three Marines injured by a land mine, including one soldier who lost his foot.
That incident happened here, near an abandoned building at the end of the runway, with Taliban anti-aircraft guns on the roof. The Marines had just searched it for ordinance when one of them stepped on a mine.
As he lay in agony, the rescuers had to probe with knives for other devices before laying down a tape to reach him safely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got to angle when you're probing. As far as if you do hit the body of the mine, that's what you're actually wanting to detect, not the fusing but the body. And as long as you don't grip it tight and it impacts up, you're fine. If you grip it tight and you're just jamming it in the ground, with no technique, you are going to set it off.
SERGEANT MICHAEL ELURINI, U.S. MARINES: What you are dealing with is you could lose your life at some time, and once you come to terms with that, it makes the job a lot easier and you know that your job is making other people safe and that's what we get our satisfaction.
CHINOY: The rescuers told us how they talked with the injured man, Corporal Chris Chandler from Camp Pendleton, California, who was later evacuated by helicopter as they worked their way forward. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were talking to him to keep him conscience, as far as asking him where he's from, asking him his name, how many brothers and sisters he had.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was worried that we were going to hurt ourselves, you know, and my comment to him was we get paid $150 dollars extra a month for that, so not to worry about it.
CHINOY: With bombs, rockets, grenades, fuses and ammunition almost everywhere, an controlled explosions a regular occurrence, it's becoming clear that unexploded ordinance is the Marine's most immediate security problem.
The Marines say they're even concerned about mines being planed in craters on the runway, craters like this caused by U.S. bombing.
According to Marine ordinance experts, there's concern that departing Taliban and al Qaeda fighters put land mines in these craters, convinced the Marines might use them as foxholes.
LIEUTENANT MIKE RUNCLE, U.S. NAVY: And that's the trick to mines. Our first indication that there's a minefield would be when one guy steps on one.
CHINOY: That's hardly the only security threat though, as the Marines reinforce their presence here. Thirteen planeloads of troops and equipment arrived on Sunday night. We're told there's still a danger from pockets of Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. With plans to reopen the airport runway moving ahead, the Marines will have to expand their security perimeter, and that means working through the surrounding mine fields whatever the risk.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHINOY: A little over an hour from now, there is going to be a ceremony that will certainly boost the Marines already high morale, a flag, an American flag found at Ground Zero in New York has been mailed here. It's been signed by members of the New York City Police Department, Fire Department, and families of some of the victims. It will fly over Kandahar Airport until the Marines turn control of this facility over to the local Afghan authorities. Aaron?
BROWN: Mike, thanks. Mike Chinoy at the airport in Kandahar, and I do believe that will be the quote of the night. We get an extra $130 dollars a month. Don't worry about us.
It's still not at all clear how the United States is going to deal with the American Taliban soldier, John Walker. Young and misguided and deserves a break or treasonous and he deserves the harshest punishment you can device.
Newsweek Magazine is reporting today that Walker trained with al Qaeda and even met with bin Laden. New York's mayor, among others, is suggesting the death penalty. The John Walker dilemma tonight from CNN'S Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: President Bush says American Taliban John Walker has been questioned properly by the U.S. government, but when Walker was caught in an al Qaeda roundup in an Afghan prison, was he read his Miranda rights. protecting him against self-incrimination.
EUGENE FIDELL, INSTITUTE OF MILITARY JUSTICE: If the government were to try to admit in evidence statements that he made without having been warned, his defense council will certainly make an issue of that.
CANDIOTTI: If Walker's interrogation by the FBI and U.S. military does not pass legal muster, prosecutors could not use any evidence obtained from those interview in a civilian court.
JOHN WALKER: I came with the Pakistanis.
CANDIOTTI: But Walker did talk to CNN about meeting Osama bin Laden in training camps and being sent to fight in Kashmir. Press interviews require no special warning, and anything he said here might well be used against him. Beyond the evidence, what's the charge?
A U.S. official says Walker has admitted undergoing terrorist training at al Qaeda camps. But was he training against the U.S.?
STANLEY COHEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Obviously the fact that he received formal training, begins to paint a certain picture. You need more than that picture to prosecute someone for violation of U.S. Substantive Law.
CANDIOTTI: He remains in military custody currently on a U.S. ship in the Arabian Sea. A lawyer hired by his parents complained Walker has not had access to an attorney for more than two weeks. The Justice Department is looking at several charges that carry a possible death penalty, including Treason and Murder of a U.S. government employee.
Lesser charges include providing material support to terrorists. The President says Walker, as a U.S. citizen will not face a military tribunal.
BUSH: So we'll make the determination whether or not he stays within the military system or comes into the civil justice system.
CANDIOTTI: Administration officials won't say when they will decide Walker's fate.
FLEISCHER: Department of Defense and others still inquiring to determine exactly what happened to Mr. Walker, how he came to be a Taliban, what activities he factually engaged in, as a member of the Taliban.
CANDIOTTI: It's even possible, though unlikely, Walker may not be charged at all. Depending on what he has to offer, he could wind up as a witness for the government, testifying against the very people with whom he fought. Susan Candiotti, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: When NEWSNIGHT continues, more on the hunt for bin Laden, that and more in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A bit more now on the search for bin Laden. Obviously, there was no Hitler bunker ending in Tora Bora over the weekend. Perhaps that was too much to expect.
It's a lot easier to corner someone if he's got a pair of walls behind him and not a 1,300 mile border. So, if bin Laden ran, and that's a big "if" tonight, where might he go and how is he getting around, and who might catch him and how might that happen?
Questions for a pair of CNN experts. In Little Rock, Arkansas, retired General Wesley Clark, and in Washington tonight, Peter Bergen who is as they say the author of the book on bin Laden and other things.
Peter joins from us Washington. Good to see you both. Peter, do you think he's still in Afghanistan or do you think he had a terrific plan to get out if it all went down on him?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM EXPERT: It's hard to know but I think going into Pakistan doesn't really help him because the Pakistan government is quite enthusiastically looking for him and this $25 million reward, you know, the average wage of Afghan doctor is $6 a month so $25 million is a lot of money, whether you're on the Pakistan border or on the Afghan border.
So I think that people are looking for him. Where he is exactly, obviously no one knows.
BROWN: And General, if you are running the war, do you believe at this point you've got some al Qaeda fighters, are you getting kind of intelligence you think you need to find him?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY EXPERT: Probably not, but I don't think we've completely swept through the area yet. This is a larger area by far than what the few hundred members of the Eastern Alliance reported. We've been bombing in a very localized place. The small arms fire died off. We know we don't have as many people as we thought were up there. They're somewhere.
Maybe they have gone into Pakistan, they're in hiding, or they've infiltrated back through Afghanistan. That area needs to be swept. It needs to be swept by the Eastern Alliance troops with U.S. Special Forces in support. We need aircraft overhead, probably safe to bring in some helicopters and work at lower altitudes with the helicopters to get a better look at things.
We haven't heard anything about these great caverns that had all of the appliances in them with the exits into Pakistan. Where is it? We haven't heard about it yet. So obviously, there's more there to be found.
BROWN: And Peter, you've talked to bin Laden. You've researched bin Laden. Is it conceivable to you, this is a guess and I understand that, but is it conceivable to you that: a) he didn't have a plan to get away; or, b) he would allow himself to be captured.
BERGEN: I think it's very unlikely he would allow himself to be captured. I think that he's made a number of statements indicating that he is willing to die. Of course, you know, we may all want to go to heaven but not necessarily immediately, and bin Laden may have other ideas.
But I think that he has decided to die in this struggle. He's made a number of statements recently that indicate that.
BROWN: And Peter, one more point on this. Do you think that he anticipated, given what we saw on the tape last week that he knew in advance and all of the rest, do you think he anticipated what has happened in Afghanistan, that the Americans would come in the way they came in and all the rest?
BERGEN: I really don't think so, Aaron. I mean, if you look at the videotape, three or four floors of the World Trade Center was perhaps the idea that they were going to take down. You know, they did the experiment where 100 Americans were killed. What we had are the same kind of overwhelming response that we've seen.
I think bin Laden may have calculated the response would have been not dissimilar to after the U.S. Embassy bombing attacks in Africa, which were simply cruise missile attacks. So I think he badly underestimated the American response.
BROWN: And General Clark, I swear I think I asked you this question back in September honestly, maybe early October. Is the military prepared for this kind of job to find one person in a big country.
CLARK: I think you did ask me that question. I think it's a very, very difficult mission, and it really isn't a mission the military is very good at. This is a mission that takes full support of allies. It takes law enforcement, police intelligence work.
It takes the customs and border people and all kinds of countries and lots of international cooperation. The military can help, but the military, it's not our primary capability and so this is going to require a very long-term campaign, as the administration's been saying.
BROWN: Or a foolish mistake.
CLARK: Or a mistake. I mean, he can make a mistake and we could grab him.
BROWN: General Clark, good to talk to you again. Peter, nice to see you as well. Have good holidays both of you.
BERGEN: Thank you.
CLARK: Thank you.
BROWN: By the way, one report we saw today suggested that the elusive Osama bin Laden may, in fact, be out there in disguise changing his appearance in an effort to avoid capture. There are reports out of Afghanistan that bin Laden may have taken on this new look, may have shaved his beard, may have made his way into Pakistan, may be wearing western clothes. Who knows.
In any case, we asked CNN artists in our graphic department to draw up a series of looks at bin Laden. This is the one we see all the time, and presumably if we saw this guy walking down the street of New York or Pakistan, Islamabad, we would get it.
Now just start changing the face a little bit, take the beard away and now take it a little more away and now one more time, and would you recognize him in Islamabad or anywhere else?
In a moment, killing anthrax in the Hart Senate Office Building and why it isn't going quite as planned which may be our under statement of the day. NEWSNIGHT continues for Monday.
BROWN: In Washington today, one of those anthrax scares that seem a part of the past but aren't. It happened at the State Department in the Offices of the Deputy Secretary of State, Richard Armitage. Someone opened an envelope with white powder inside and officials saying they assumed it was safe because it came through the postal service where they have been zapping these letters with radiation. The FBI was called in. Hazmat teams arrived too. No details yet on the investigation.
And remember the Hart Senate Office Building and the plan to clean it up. Remember that? No luck there yet either. From the beginning, the plans to fumigate the building seemed like equal parts, Albert Einstein and Rue Goldberg.
Today Goldberg and Mr. Murphy, as in the guy who wrote Murphy's Law seem to have the upper hand. Back to the hill and CNN's Kate Snow. Kate, good evening.
SNOW: Aaron, whatever can go wrong and that's what happened. The latest attempt to fumigate the Hart Senate Office Building was a complete bust. They tried to do this throughout the weekend. They started preparing the building for the process all weekend long. They were going to pump in more chlorine dioxide gas, specifically this time into the heating and ventilation and air- conditioning ducts.
In the corner of the building where Senator Daschle's office is located, about two weeks ago they had used the same stuff, chlorine dioxide gas in Daschle's office suite and had fairly good success with that. So the next step was going into for the ventilation system. But on Friday when they thought they would begin the process, they had problems and that was just the beginning.
DAN NICHOLS, CAPITOL POLICE: In order for chlorine dioxide gas to be effective killing anthrax spores, there has to be a certain humidity level, which is at least 75 percent, and that was one of our concerns over the weekend. We had difficulty getting at least 75 percent humidity into that system.
Once we achieved the humidity levels, then we had to pump the chlorine dioxide gas in. Unfortunately, we couldn't pump it in to the levels we needed to, to reach the parts per million we needed to kill the spores.
SNOW: And that according to the EPA is absolutely crucial when you are doing this process. It has to be at a certain level of concentration, this chlorine dioxide gas, and it has to stay at that level of concentration for 12 hours while they do the cleanup.
Lieutenant Nichols says they'll try to fix the mechanical problem. They'll go back in and they'll try it again, but he's not sure exactly when. At this point, Aaron, this means they are definitely not going to meet their deadline of opening in January.
Originally, they were going to try to reopen in November, if you recall. That was a month ago, and one thing they are running into now is the holiday season. Not only do the workers and all the police officers involved want to go home to their families, but this is also in the middle of a neighborhood in the Capitol Hill Historic District here in Washington. There are houses all around that building. Those people want to have a holiday too. Aaron.
BROWN: I'll be they do. Kate, on the business of the Senate, I heard Senator Daschle say over the weekend 50/50 was his guess that an economic stimulus package coming out of the Senate. Where are they?
SNOW: Well, anybody's guess. Some people will tell you 50/50. Some people say it's never going to happen.
The latest move and the latest strategy seems to be that House Republicans working along with the White House are trying to come up with a new different economic stimulus bill that could pass the House, maybe as soon as tomorrow night, maybe on Wednesday, that would also have enough support from some key centrist Democrats in the Senate, some of those who often go along with the Republicans, enough support there so that it might actually stand a chance of passing in the Senate as well, so they're working on that. That's sort of the strategy, to kind put Senator Tom Daschle on notice and force his hand. He will have to either take it up or not have an economic stimulus before they leave for the holiday -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you. Keep an eye on that tomorrow. Thank you very much, Kate Snow on the Hill tonight.
We began this evening talking about the new normal, and it's here again in this segment. Everyday homeland security director Tom Ridge sets about to define this new normal, what has to be done, how does it get done? Will it work? Will the country be safe?
So today, CNN's Jeanne Meserve sat down with Mr. Ridge to talk about our vulnerability and defense of strategy, and Jeanne joins us tonight.
Jeanne, Nice to see you.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Aaron. Nice to see you.
Well, nothing shows priorities and sets priorities like money, and Tom Ridge talked a little bit about that today. He says the 203 budget will fund improvements in the nation's public health infrastructure and provide more support to first responders, but what will they have to deal with, what are the biggest threats facing the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice over): One possibility Tom Ridge discussed, terrorist sabotage of a chemical facility.
TOM RIDGE, DIRECTOR, HOMELAND SECURITY: It's conceivable that instead of importing chemicals into the United States of America, they might find some way to use a preexisting source right here in the United States against us, as they have done with airplanes and envelopes.
MESERVE: Can you quantify that threat?
RIDGE: Well we know that the chemical industry is one of the most important and largest industries we have in this country. We know that there are chemical facilities all over this country.
MESERVE: Right now, there are no Federal counter-terrorism security standards for chemical plants. I asked Ridge if there should be.
RIDGE: Because of the terrorist attacks, the companies themselves and the private security community has obviously upgraded. But to date, we don't have any standard.
MESERVE: And isn't that a concern?
RIDGE: But this is the United States of America. We're going to have to have a standard.
MESERVE: Any idea what that standard will look like?
RIDGE: Not at this point.
MESERVE: One of those things you're working on.
RIDGE: It's going to be a tough and rigorous standard that we -- part of an overall national strategy.
MESERVE: Ridge was sidetracked from piecing together that national strategy by the anthrax attacks. The FBI, as part of its investigation, is reportedly looking at a CIA biowarfare program. Ridge didn't want to comment on the probe, but I asked him about reports in the Washington Post that the FBI only found out about the CIA program in recent weeks.
RIDGE: One of the things that the President has commissioned me to do in his Executive Order is make sure that the gap or delay in information sharing no longer exists as we combat this War on Terror.
MESERVE: But does this indicate that the gap still does exist?
RIDGE: Well, I think it indicates that I've got some work to do.
MESERVE: Some Americans have responded to the September 11th attacks by purchasing firearms. Gun and ammunition sales are up. I asked Ridge about that phenomenon.
RIDGE: The casual acquisition, the personal acquisition of a firearm, I don't think is necessarily going to enhance national security. It may give an individual or a family a greater sense of comfort. But at the end of the day, that's not the best anecdote to 21st Century terrorist attacks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Aaron, Some people are already raising questions about Ridge's effectiveness, specifically his ability to bring cohesion and coordination to homeland security. Sources in the federal government and sources outside say some federal agencies are already in battle posture to preserve their homeland defense turf. Ridge says some pushing back against him is predictable, but claims he has not felt it yet. He says, in fact, there has been, in his words, "remarkable collaboration and consensus" in putting the 2003 budget together -- Aaron.
BROWN: I'll confess, I find this sort of Washington infighting fascinating. Are these career people or political appointees who are pushing back?
MESERVE: I think it is anybody who has a vested interest in seeing their turf remain. One of the phenomenons I have been told about is that Ridge right now has a very small budget, and he's relying for his staff on people who are detailed from various federal agencies. I have been told that some agencies are refusing to give him their best people, because they want to keep them on their side, fighting their battle. I asked Ridge about that today. He said it isn't the case. He says he feels he's putting together a very capable and hard working staff -- Aaron.
BROWN: I would be surprised if he said anything but that, Jeanne.
And so would I.
BROWN: Thank you very much.
Jeanne Meserve in Washington tonight. Thank you very much.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT -- sometimes they say what you know they are going to say -- what it's like to be a teenager in Afghanistan. Kids in the United States wanted to know, so Jason Bellini, along with MTV News, got some answers. You will hear them when we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our Jason Bellini has been in Afghanistan for a few weeks now, bringing us some of the stories that have been overlooked in the crush to cover the war. He has another one tonight, though this one is a bit different. Jason produced the story in collaboration with MTV News, where he used to work, and it will air on both NEWSNIGHT and MTV as well. As you probably guessed, this is a story about young people, young people here and young people in Afghanistan. Kids in the U.S. have been curious about kids in Afghanistan. So Jason took some of their questions, and did what reporters do -- he asked them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you do for fun and entertainment? On the news they make it out as you're not allowed to listen to music or watch TV. I was just curious as what the youth of Afghanistan does for entertainment and for fun.
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What do Afghan teens do for fun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, if I have any free time, I play something, we'll go to movies or something.
BELLINI: What kind of movies do you like?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Indian. Just Indian, yeah.
BELLINI: Just Indian movies?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Afghanistan, all of movies are Indian.
BELLINI: Now that the Taliban are gone, teenage boys and girls theoretically have freedom. Freedom to have fun, but the economic situation hasn't changed and so, many of them have to say at home or be at work all day supporting their families. Yet they now have the freedom to watch movies; to listen to music; to do things that teens around the world do without living in fear of the Taliban; the fear of being arrested; the fear of being punished.
DAN: Hi, I'm Dan. I enjoy playing basketball and other organized sports, and I was just wondering what kind of sports and other organized activities you guys play.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Our entertainment in this country is playing this game called Karin bowl (ph), and playing football, volleyball, and basketball.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the morning, we have one hour for sport. BELLINI: What do you play? What sport?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I play football, soccer.
BELLINI: Soccer -- soccer in America. Did you play football during the Taliban or not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never. (ph)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard that under the Taliban, life for girls in Afghanistan was really harsh. What is it like now?
BELLINI: For many Afghan girls, the situation has even been worse than that of boys because the Taliban wouldn't allow them to go to school, so they have been never any left their homes. They stay at home knitting carpets all day to help support their families. So fun is not something they really had time or the opportunity to think about. How many hours everyday do you make carpet?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine hours.
BELLINI: Nine hours everyday to make carpet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
BELLINI: Why do you make carpets?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because -- because the situation of the people of Afghanistan is very poor, they need some money -- because money.
BELLINI: Your parents - you need to help your parents with money?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We haven't got any entertainment or fun. We're busy with chores around the house.
BELLINI: You think life will be better here for teens in the future?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I hope so.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: I hope so, too.
Jason's series will continue here that he produced with MTV News throughout the week. We presume over there as well. We never feel older that when we look at Jason doing a standup. Unbelievable.
Still ahead for us tonight, football fans in Cleveland send the refs a message in a bottle. We'll take a look at how the newspapers are covering that, in Cleveland and in Jacksonville. NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Those of you who watch the program regularly, and know we know that's all of you, know from time to time we call on a newspaper editor or two to brief us on what their papers are covering, or will be covering, in the days ahead. Tonight, the same basic idea with a twist, or a twist off. What started as a questionable call late in the Jacksonville-Cleveland game in Cleveland yesterday turned into beer call. Cleveland fans had just one thing to say to officials -- this Bud's for you.
We used every we could think of here, didn't we?
These were plastic bottles, thank goodness.
Here to talk about this with us tonight, Vito Stellino, sports columnist for "the Florida Times-Union" in Jacksonville, and Bud Shaw of "The Cleveland Plain Dealer."
Nice to see you both.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good to see you.
BROWN: Bud, let's start with you. Again, this was front page in the newspaper today. Will it be front page tomorrow?
BUD SHAW, "CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER": Yes, it will, because of a delayed apology that Browns president Carmen Policy (ph) made today.
BROWN: It was sort of a tepid apology yesterday, wasn't it?
SHAW: Yes, it really was. And he contended today that he didn't see everything that transpired on the field, that still there some questions about throwing bottles, and he made a comment that plastic bottles don't carry too much wallop, which didn't set too well with some of the people who got walloped by them.
BROWN: I was going to say, I guess it depends on who is getting walloped in that. And is it right that yesterday he suggested, at least, that if the same thing had happened in Jacksonville, the fans there would have reacted same way.
SHAW: Yes, he made an apology to the Jacksonville team and its players today. He did not back off that statement, that the circumstances at the end of game were so unusual, in his mind, that in many other cities that he's been in -- he specifically spoke to some of older cities, and I think I grew up in one of them, Philadelphia, this could have very easily happened there also.
BROWN: I will let that pass without comment.
Vito, could you imagine such a horrible thing happening your town of Jacksonville, Florida?
VITO STELLINO, "THE FLORIDA TIMES-UNION": Well, It's hard to say. Both the owner, Wayne Weaver, and the coach, Tom Coughlin, said it would never happen here. But in today's comment Carmen Policy mentioned specifically the older NFL cities. Jacksonville has only had a team for seven years, so fans here tend to be a little more polite, a little more patient. It's hard to say whether the it would happened here, but I think Carmen's probably right, in other older NFL cities, including Philadelphia, it could have well happened there, too.
BROWN: How did the newspaper play it? Was it all over the paper? Was it in the news section? How do you deal with it? Front page?
I'm sorry. Vito first.
STELLINO: We had it in the front page this morning, and it will be on front page again tomorrow. We had a follow-up on the quasi I apology by Carmen, and also how the league is reacting and their reaction to how the referees handled the whole situation. It all started, because the referees handled the situation very poorly. Supposedly, when they run another play, they can't go back and review the previous one. They did that this time. They claimed they had been buzzed before the next play started, but that kind of triggered the whole thing.
BROWN: Call me crazy, but I thought it all started when people started throwing beer bottles out of stands, maybe it's just me. But any talk at Cleveland that they ought to, a, not sell beer in bottles, or, b, not sell beer that late in the football game.
SHAW: Yes, I believe what he plan to do now -- that was last home game of the season for the Browns, who go on the road for three weeks straight, but they are going to review their policy of serving it in plastic bottles. Their contention was that it's served that way in almost every NFL stadium except a few, and I think we'll see them in paper cups, and I think they'll have a more specific policy about when they cut off beer sales. Right now, it's sort of open to interpretation.
BROWN: Bud, about 15, 20 seconds. Is this -- I mean, obviously, what has happened is unfortunate and unusual? Have there been incidents like this in Cleveland before?
SHAW: There have been a few. I dent believe there have been many more here than there have been in the cities that Policy was referring to today, like New York and Philadelphia, but there is a certain frustration that goes from missing out on Super Bowls in this town that I think wells up in those kinds of situations.
BROWN: It's only a game, Bud.
SHAW: It certainly is.
BROWN: Thank you both. Nice job. Good to you have with us tonight. Thank you much.
STELLINO: Thank you.
SHAW: Nice to be here.
BROWN: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, letters to Santas. NEWSNIGHT'S Beth Nissen reports from North Pole, Alaska.
Wow.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We try when we can to avoid the obvious on this program. Call it the "no pardoning of the Thanksgiving turkey theory of journalism." We make an exception to the rule tonight, because it involves kids, and one of most delicious parts of being one, the letter to Santa Clause. This may be one time where the new normal and the old normal coincide.
CNN's Beth Nissen tonight from North Pole, Alaska.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The signs are in post offices and mail rooms across the country, warning those who receive mail and those who deliver it to be on the alert for suspicious letters and packages. That's something of a challenge for the post office in North Pole Alaska. This time of year they get 3,000 pieces of mail a day for Santa Claus and almost all of it fits the United States Postal Service description of what's suspicious.
DONNA MATTHEWS: Some of them do not even look like letters. They just - they just seem to find their way here.
NISSEN: Most of the letters to Santa are written in crude block printing and addressed simply to Santa Claus, North Pole, except for this one from a geographically-challenged child. Thousands of letters to Santa have no return address or incomplete return addresses. Senders may assume a return address is unnecessary since Santa already knows where everyone lives. According to the U.S. Postal Service, it can be a warning sign if the letter is mailed from a foreign country or if the letter carries excessive postage.
Many letters to Santa have the wrong postage or no postage. The sender of this Santa letter made his own stamp from an (INAUDIBLE) post-it note. Postal employees are also told to keep watch for packages sealed in an unusual way with excessive tape or string, for instance.
MATTHEWS: Like this isn't even an envelope. It's just stapled together. No postage. No nothing.
NISSEN: How is the North Pole post office handling all of this suspicious mail?
MATTHEWS: Business as usual. Everything is exactly the same. We are still getting the mail and handling it exactly as we have for many, years and getting it to Santa. NISSEN: To confirm that CNN went to Santa Claus' house in the North Pole. It says it's his house right on the side, and checked with the man to whom all those letters are addressed. It says his legal name is Kris Kringle right on his driver's license. Santa Claus reports no fall-off in the number of Christmas wish lists he is getting in person.
KRIS KRINGLE: (INAUDIBLE) anything and everything that you liked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well I kind of like the (INAUDIBLE) octopus and I think I could bring them into the water with my shark.
NISSEN: But what of requests for toy sharks and accompanying octopi (ph) that might come by post. Are you getting your mail?
KRINGLE: You know I'm definitely getting a lot of mail. I got quite a few of these. This one here is in from U.K., Oregon, New York, Illinois.
NISSEN: He has stacks full - sacks full of officially suspicious mail. It's blocked letters. There's only a partial return address.
KRINGLE: Right.
NISSEN: Even this envelope got to you.
KRINGLE: Right.
NISSEN: Santa is even receiving the most alarming kinds of suspicious mail - the packages described as lopsided or uneven, with a strange odor or with oily stains. What do children send you in addition to Christmas lists?
KRINGLE: Candy, cookies, ribbons, bows, oats, wheat - a little bit - anything and everything.
NISSEN: Oats, wheat.
KRINGLE: Well they bring that for my reindeer.
NISSEN: These two reindeer identified as Donner and Blitzen by unnamed sources are said to have received a few mailed carrots just days ago. Santa says he'll be reading his mail right up until Christmas Eve.
KRINGLE: Here is my Christmas list. (INAUDIBLE) roller skates and computer and the markers and the Barbie house.
NISSEN: What does he say to the very idea that new postal precautions will delay or disrupt mail to Santa this year.
KRINGLE: Ho. Ho. Ho. Ho. Ho. Ho. Ho. Ho. Ho. Merry Christmas and I'll see you soon.
NISSEN: Beth Nissen, CNN, North Pole, Alaska. (END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: New normal or old.
Coming up, a very nice moment in Afghanistan today. We want to show you the embassy, the U.S. embassy. We are right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally tonight, they raised the American flag at the U.S. embassy in Kabul today for the first time since 1989. We want to show you what it looked like, but we need to tell you two quick things about it first. One is the recording they played of "The National Anthem" is not most perfect recording ever made, and second, the camera shutters were so loud people wanted to get shots almost couldn't hear it at all.
Here's how it played out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, if I can please ask you to raise for the marching on for the colors.
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(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And that is the same flag that came down in January of '89, the same one.
That's our report for tonight. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good night for all of us.
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