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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Bin Laden is Still Missing; Mumia Abu Jamal's Death Penalty Has Been Overturned
Aired December 18, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, NEWSNIGHT: Good evening again, I'm Aaron Brown in New York. I heard the strangest thing driving in to work today. It was a top of the hour network radio newscast, and for the first three minutes, right up to the first commercial, there was not a single mention of the war or anthrax or ground zero, nothing.
I doubt that even on the day American Airlines Flight 587 crashed in Queens did that happen. But it happened today and it happened because most of the shooting has stopped, because bin Laden is still missing just like yesterday and the day before, and most importantly because a number of other things did happen today that earned their way to the top of that newscast.
So while we do have news of note to report tonight on both the war and the domestic side of the battle against terrorism, there is other news too and we need to get used to that. The war is slowing down.
Other news of note, a judge today threw out the death sentence for Mumia Abu Jamal. His conviction in a 1981 killing of a Philadelphia police officer stands. This case has taken on the most unusual political life, a worldwide movement of its own.
Abu Jamal's supporters can be found on college campuses, in cafes in Paris, all over Hollywood, supporters who say the former Black Panther was wrongly convicted, and tonight you'll hear from one of them, the rapper Chuck D. You'll also hear from Officer Faulkner's widow.
First a look at some of the memorable pictures from today. In Kandahar, Afghanistan a carnival like none you'd see in the United States, hand-operated ferris wheels marking the end of Ramadan. The city trying to recover after the Taliban's collapse and the Taliban leader Mullah Omar, like bin Laden too, nowhere to be found yet.
In Mazar-e Sharif, a game like none you'd see in the United States, also celebrating Ramadan's end. It's like polo but the ball, as it were, is a headless calf. My oh my. Today even some western soldiers joined in.
And back in the United States at Ground Zero, nothing to celebrate with this discovery. As you can see if you look closely, it's a fire truck crushed into ruins, but unmistakable. Also tonight, more on the American Taliban soldier, John Walker. Tonight we'll look at the debate over why Walker decided to fight with the Taliban, a battle that has all of the elements of the American cultural war, liberals versus conservatives.
We'll also have a report from Jason Bellini who's been working with MTV News to bring the voices of the young people in this country and in Afghanistan into the mix. Tonight, what Afghan kids think of the United States.
And a journey tonight ends in Kandahar for a flag found at Ground Zero. All of that is coming up in the hour ahead. We begin with our whip around the world and the correspondents covering it. And tonight we start with Bob Franken with the duty at the Pentagon.
Bob, a headline from you, please.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Aaron, the Pentagon and the officials here are well aware of the perception that the war is slowing down, but the message of the day was, it slows down as it reaches what might be its roughest part.
BROWN: Bob, thank you, back to you shortly. To Afghanistan, Tora Bora and CNN's Nic Robertson. Nic, a headline from you please, tonight.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, signs also that the war is slowing down here. Eastern Alliance commanders pulling the bulk of their forces off the mountains. The search for Osama bin Laden goes on in those mountains. B-52s are flying overhead but no bombs dropping, and prisoners we've talked to here say that Osama bin laden was very mobile in those mountains. Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you. To the White House, other issues beside the war. Senior White House Correspondent John King. John, a headline, please.
JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Two quick ones, if you don't mind. The President travels to Capitol Hill tomorrow, a very rare visit. He'll meet with republicans mostly to say thank you for his first year in office. But he also hopes to break the impasse over an economic stimulus package.
And here at the White House today, the President told Congressional leaders there are more videotapes of Osama bin Laden now in the custody of U.S. troops, on their way back here to be analyzed. No one believes though they are as significant as the tape we all watched in recent days. Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you, back with you. The President makes his way to the Hill tomorrow. Kate Snow is there tonight. Kate, a headline from you, please.
KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, on the economic stimulus front, they are trying to really force this issue in the House of Representatives tomorrow. They plan a vote on another economic stimulus bill. Whether that's truly a compromise bill or just a bill republicans like meant to put the Senate in a jam, there is still time for a compromise perhaps, but the clock is really ticking. Aaron.
BROWN: Kate, thank you, back to you. Back to all of you shortly. We begin with the manhunt. New York's former police commissioner, Howard Safer said something fascinating about the bin Laden hunt today. He said the nice thing is, you can make a thousand mistakes if you're the police or the army. The fugitive only has to make one.
It is also, however, worth remembering that another wanted terrorist, just as notorious in his time as bin Laden is today, Carlos the Jackal stayed missing for nearly 25 years. Then again, no one threatened war against the countries that harbored him, or for that matter put a $25 million reward on his head.
The search for bin Laden, back to the Pentagon and CNN's Bob Franken. Bob, good evening to you.
FRANKEN: Good evening, Aaron, and the emphasis until now has been an effort to kill, conquer the Taliban or al Qaeda. But now, there's an effort to use them to gain as much information as possible.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice over): The United States is focusing more and more on the prisoners taken in Afghanistan. Pentagon officials confirm that 15 more had been turned over to U.S. troops, taken to the new detention facility constructed at Kandahar Airport.
Five others, including American John Walker are on board a U.S. assault ship offshore. FBI agents have been dispatched to assist with interrogations.
TOM KNOWLES, FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: Our primary goal is to see if we can gather information to try to prevent future attacks against Americans, and then obviously a secondary role is to try to garnish any information, evidence concerning the past attacks against us.
FRANKEN: And perhaps information about Osama bin Laden, still unaccounted for. Pentagon officials say they don't know if he's dead at the bottom of a cave in Tora Bora or alive in Afghanistan, or out, although there was a blunt warning to any country that might be considering giving him someplace to go.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: Any country in the world that would knowingly harbor bin Laden would be out of their minds, and I think they've seen what happened to the Taliban, and I think that's probably a pretty good lesson to people not to do that.
FRANKEN: Not that officials have given up on the possibility that bin Laden is still in Afghanistan, the search for him and for Taliban Supreme Leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, the treacherous caves, the land mines, the ongoing military operations are all evidence that the Taliban and al Qaeda are what the Deputy Defense Secretary described as only half defeated.
In Brussels, his boss warned that the worst could be yet to come.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The task is still ahead of us and it should not be considered that it will be accomplished in a short period of time. It's going to be tough, dirty, hard work.
FRANKEN: Each day, Aaron, officials here try to come up with a catch phrase to describe the situation and the Deputy Defense Secretary put it this way today, that the bell ending the first round hasn't rung yet. Aaron.
BROWN: Bob, you were in the briefings and talking to people all day. Quickly, is there any defensiveness at the Pentagon over the fact that bin Laden has not been caught yet, or are they just sort of matter-of-fact about how hard it is to do?
FRANKEN: Matter-of-fact about how hard it is to do and matter- of-fact about the fact that they really don't know exactly which is the preferred explanation for his not being captured yet.
BROWN: Bob, thank you. Bob Franken on watch at the Pentagon this evening. There was no bombing at all on Tuesday in Afghanistan. How strange is that? The war beginning to give way now to the manhunt. Escaping al Qaeda fighters, as Bob mentioned, perhaps too iffy a target from the air, so hundreds of them may have slipped over the border or slipped away or still hiding.
Over the weekend, some who didn't make it are in custody. They're talking some, or at least they're being interrogated. They're talking about the battle for Tora Bora, and investigators hope they're talking about bin Laden too.
Once again to Tora Bora and CNN's Nic Robertson. Nic, good morning to you.
ROBERTSON: Good morning, Aaron. Well indeed, the search is still going on but it's being done, carried out by a far smaller force. The Eastern Alliance commanders here have taken off from the mountains the bulk of their fighters.
They've been coming down. We've seen some coming off the mountain this morning, many coming down lat yesterday. And it is the lower peaks now, the lower hills that they seem to be searching as well, because the higher peaks have now been covered in a new blanket of snow and their work yesterday was made much harder by some 50-mile- an-hour winds that were blowing through here.
And there are still B-52s and other aircraft flying through the area. I can still see the vapor trail up here from a B-52 that flew over a few minutes ago. They seem to fly into the region of Tora Bora, and then reverse track and fly back out again, and we've been seeing that, saw that last night and we can see that today.
We have talked with some of those prisoners, and as one might expect, some of them did deny that they were members of al Qaeda. But they did explain what had been happening on the mountains. They talked of chaos and confusion. They talked of heavy, heavy bombing. In fact, many of them bore injuries that could be attributed to that bombing.
They sounded traumatized when they were speaking. They talked of coming down the mountains eventually and coming under gunfire when they did that and of eventually surrendering. At that time they didn't even know why they were prisoners.
But the key thing coming from these captives is that they say they don't know where Osama bin Laden is and they essentially denied the fact that they were members of al Qaeda as well. Aaron.
BROWN: Well, not to be flip here, Nic, but if they say they weren't members of al Qaeda, what did they say they were doing up there in those mountains all that time?
ROBERTSON: Well, they seem to have worked out, or at least maybe true stories. We don't know. The story of one doctor I talked to, he said he'd come to Afghanistan three months ago because he thought there may be a need for Afghans to have some help during the war he thought they might have, and he spent some time in hospitals around Kandahar and around Jalalabad.
And he said that eventually the tide had turned against him, the Arabs, and he was forced - he was from Yemen and he said he was forced to take to the mountains. He said he had no choice than to head up towards the al Qaeda camp.
And then once up there, he said they came under intense bombing and the only thing left to do was to run away. But I must say that sitting in the cell next to him were some people who looked like pretty hardcore fighters, one man reading the Quran and they certainly didn't want to talk to us. Perhaps they didn't speak English. Perhaps they didn't feel inclined to.
But the indications we saw were of people that had been severely traumatized by some very, apparent heavy bombing. Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson in Tora Bora tonight on the search and the interrogations as they go on.
A little bit of time now on domestic politics. As we mentioned, President Bush travels to Capitol Hill tomorrow. He's got an official reason for making the trip, to thank republican lawmakers for their support over the last year.
But his visit may have less to do with that and more to do with some arm twisting on the economic stimulus package. That seems to be coming to a head now.
Back to the White House and White House Senior Correspondent, John King. John, good evening.
KING: Good evening to you, Aaron. The President will travel to the Hill. He will meet with both House and Senate republicans. He continues to insist the main obstacle to a deal on an economic stimulus package is Senate democrats. But many conservatives are worried this President is so eager for a deal, some even privately say desperate, that he might cut a deal that they don't like.
The President will meet with House republicans and Senate republicans. Negotiations continued tonight with the democrats and republicans as well. The major hang-up is how to deliver health care benefits to those thrown out of work, either by the September 11th strikes or the broader recession, dating back to March.
An honest to goodness philosophical disagreement between the democrats and republicans, not only over how to do that, but over who should be eligible. This President's trip tomorrow, quite a rare trip by this President to Capitol Hill.
Remember he is well guided by the lessons of his father who won a war but was thrown out of office because people think he was not in touch with their economic concerns. If he does not get a deal this week, this President is determined to make clear to the American people he is trying. Aaron.
BROWN: OK, John, on health care and maybe Kate in a minute. Kate Snow will weigh on this a bit too. Who is eligible, who is not? Where are the differences and where is the White House?
KING: Over eligibility, the difference is the White House says democrats want to give health care benefits, government subsidized health care benefits even to people who voluntarily leave their jobs, or who retire early.
The White House says that's a waste of money. The help should only go to those thrown out of work, those who were involuntarily thrown out of work, either by the September 11th strikes or by the broader recession.
That is one disagreement. The other disagreement is over how to give them those benefits. The democrats say use an existing program, employer-based programs. If you've been laid off you might be familiar with the COBRA Program.
Republicans say that is bureaucracy, us a marketplace approach. Give individuals a tax credit. Let them go buy their own health insurance.
BROWN: And on this other bin Laden tape, what can you tell us?
KING: We are told several tapes, not just one, in the possession now of the U.S. military, being brought back to Washington for analysis. The President raised eyebrows today at his private meeting with the Congressional leadership when he was updating them on the progress on the war and said "among the evidence, documents and other evidence being grabbed and gathered by U.S. military officials in Afghanistan, includes more videotapes."
Tonight though, as we reported this, early indications are these are nothing of the sort of that dinnertime conversation in which Osama bin Laden discusses in detail the September 11th attacks. Still, they want intelligence agencies and investigative agencies to look at them just to see if perhaps there's anything on these new tapes that might prove helpful.
BROWN: And how about press agencies? Do they have any interest in press agencies viewing them?
KING: They didn't have any interest in press agencies seeing the one we have already seen, at least not so soon. We are told those decisions will be made well down the road. Don't look for any rush to release those videos.
BROWN: Well we can always hope. It's the season for that. John, thank you. John King at the White House tonight.
Quickly now, over the Capitol Hill and a bit more on the stimulus package, the economic stimulus package, how that's playing out, who's courting whom. Back to Kate Snow who's on the Hill for us tonight. Kate, good evening again.
SNOW: Good evening, Aaron. We've been following the ball all day today and it's really actually two balls right now that we're following.
On the one hand there are these negotiations going on among some of the key negotiators, Senate and House and the White House at the table, trying to figure out a compromise.
But on the other hand, the other ball is that the House republican leaders and the White House are simply thinking about forcing the issue. Tomorrow they plan to have a vote on this bill no matter what, they tell us.
One republican described it to me as "we're going to put this in the Senate's lap." Another republican said not so kindly, "we're going to get the Senate off their donkey on this one."
Armey said tonight, Dick Armey, the Majority Leader, that they would take this up, that Senator Daschle needs to confront the issue.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SENATOR DICK ARMEY, MAJORITY LEADER (R): I am, myself, frankly a little tired of hearing him say I agree with you in principle, but I'm opposed to all the details, all the time, ever.
You can't get to an agreement there. Either you agree with what we're trying to accomplish and want to help get it done, or indeed you don't want to accomplish that and are therefore always going to be unhappy with every detail.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (on camera): As you heard John King mention though, Aaron, democrats have a real problem with one piece of this and that is providing health care coverage to those unemployed workers. Republicans want to do it through the free market. They want to give people vouchers in the form of a tax credit that they could take out and buy insurance with.
Democrats say that's not going to work. You can't do it that way. Nobody will get any insurance that way, and they worry that this is one step more towards privatizing the nation's health insurance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SENATOR TOM DASCHLE, MAJORITY LEADER (D): We seem to be able to agree on virtually everything but workers, about everything but health insurance for those workers, and that's really what it's down to.
Now I hear reports that the republicans in the House may actually offer another stimulus package and send it over here and jam us. Well, that isn't going to work.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (on camera): He says it's not going to work because there simply are not 60 votes in the Senate, which is what they really need to get this through the Senate.
Senator John Breaux, a key centrist in all this has been courted by the White House. He's going along with it and so are a few of his colleagues, Aaron, but probably not enough to get a bill that they're thinking about through the Senate at this point. That could mean ultimately no stimulus bill before they leave for Christmas at the end of the week. Aaron.
BROWN: Just quickly to make sure I understood that, Breaux and a couple of others are going along with this modified House Bill?
SNOW: Exactly.
BROWN: OK.
SNOW: Exactly.
BROWN: And in any case, this will all play out tomorrow, or at least theoretically it will and we'll know.
SNOW: That's right. We'll see how it plays out.
BROWN: Thank you, Kate. Kate Snow on Capitol Hill for us tonight. Just ahead, Mumia Abu Jamal, his case and his cause both. The judge threw both back into the spotlight today. We'll tell you more about that when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Someone once said, we remember the war song long after we've forgotten the war. This story may be a lot like that. The case of Mumia Abu Jamal has been a political cause from Day One, 20 years ago. Radio reporter, Black Panther leader, accused of killing a Philadelphia police officer.
He was convicted, sentence to die and while some saw him as a victim, most others did not. But those who did had a loud voice and interesting arguments. And today, a judge agreed with one of those arguments that the lawyers had made that the sentence in the case, the death penalty, had been unfairly imposed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice over): The legal question surrounding the murder conviction of the former radio reporter and Black Panther, who began his life as Wesley Cook, long ago dissolved into an odd cocktail of law, politics, and theater.
In the 20 years since the death of Philadelphia police officer Daniel Faulkner, the public pressures to absolve Mumia Abu Jamal of the crime have involved such notable celebrities as Whoopie Goldberg and Ed Asner, organized demonstrations from coast-to-coast, and beyond.
In France, for example, the French President Jacques Chirac was on Abu Jamal's side. The decision to overturn the death penalty was a clear victory for them, but not a total victory, as officials in Philadelphia today made clear.
LYNN ABRAHAM, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, PHILADELPHIA: I can't emphasize enough that 235 pages of Judge Yan's opinion states that all of the phony claims and all the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) claims, and all the propaganda about the procedures of the trial, his lawyer or anything else has been totally and completely rejected by the court, totally.
BROWN: Here are some of the facts of the case. In the pre-dawn hours of December 9th, 1981, Officer Faulkner had pulled over Abu Jamal's brother for driving the wrong way down a one-way street. Abu Jamal happened to be parked across the street, and prosecutors say he ran over and shot Faulkner who then fired back.
Abu Jamal, according to prosecutors, fired once more killing the policeman. Abu Jamal defended himself at trial. The jury took but five hours to find him guilty.
LARRY FRANKEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ACLU PENNSYLVANIA: He's more articulate and eloquent on the issue of the death penalty, the criminal justice system, conditions in prison, than most people on death row, and therefore I do think that other members of the media and people around the world have paid more attention to his case.
BROWN: And that is something that concern the police in Philadelphia today.
MICHAEL LUTZ, FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE, PENNSYLVANIA: Please remember, Danny Faulkner didn't have any jury. He didn't have any judge. He didn't have any appeals. He had to face one person, his executioner.
BROWN: Only 10 days ago, bagpipers played "Danny Boy" at the site of the officers killing in commemoration of the 20th anniversary of the murder, and tonight Faulkner's widow Maureen was resolute in the wake of today's decision.
MAUREEN FAULKNER, WIDOW OF MURDERED POLICEMAN: I am outraged. I'm angry. I'm sad. This is emotional turmoil for myself and my family.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (on camera): And Maureen Faulkner joins us now from Camarillo, California. Also joining us this evening in Atlanta, rapper Chuck D, who has long been involved in the case and has been eloquent on it. And in Philadelphia, writer David Lindorf who's been working on a book about the story, and I guess is starting to do a rewrite of at least parts of it tonight. Thank you all for joining us.
Ms. Faulkner, let me give you the first word. OK, we've got a little satellite problem in California. We'll get her back.
Chuck then, let me start with you if I may. If there was one fact in this that people ought to know that might persuade them that Abu Jamal was, in fact, innocent, what would it be?
CHUCK D, RECORDING ARTIST/ACTIVIST: I think one thing would be the climate of -- hello?
BROWN: Yes, I'm with you.
CHUCK D: The climate of the Philadelphia police system leading up to that point. I'm one -- I'm just a particle in a movement of supporters that have understood, I should say the Philadelphia police system's action against the MOVE organization, and an uprising of Black activity and conscious movement in the Philadelphia area.
And this is one of the things that just led in to participate in that belief that Mamia was innocent and other things could have led to the killing of Officer Faulkner.
Now his wife, her emotions are understood, but when you have a case of reasonable doubt, you have to look into the matter and look into the history and into the climate, what was going on in that city at that particular time.
There was a lot of people that have moved up into the system whose heads are going to roll if this case is overturned, and they probably will do anything in their best interest to make sure that everything remains as.
BROWN: Chuck, nothing happened today that changed the fact that he stands convicted of killing Officer Faulkner, right?
CHUCK D: To my understanding, but I think this was a step forward into indemnifying him.
BROWN: OK, and David is there a -- are there many facts here actually in dispute?
DAVID LINDORF, JOURNALIST/AUTHOR: Well, I think there's a lot in dispute. I think the tragedy of this ruling, it's kind of the second worst thing that could have happened from Abu Jamal's point of view, because what the judge did was kind of almost a gutless decision, because he clearly thought something was wrong with the trial, but he issued a ruling that will prevent us probably from ever finding out what went wrong in the trial.
He's overturned the penalty, but he's rejected all the issues in dispute about the trial, and in so doing, he's pretty much barred Abu Jamal from appealing those any further.
BROWN: And so, just briefly here, in that regard, I don't want to say it's a hollow victory. I mean, if you're just coming off death row, it's not hollow, I assume.
LINDORF: No.
BROWN: But it is far less than a complete victory.
LINDORF: Well I think it's worse than that because it's a victory that has someone in jail, unable to appeal any further.
BROWN: All right, let me see if we've got the satellite problem fixed. Ms. Faulkner, can you hear me OK?
FAULKNER: Yes, Aaron, I can.
BROWN: OK. We apologize for that. Having heard that, that the one thing that happened today seemed to be to bar Abu Jamal from ever having the trial itself reheard, does that soften in any sense, lessen in any way your disappointment today?
FAULKNER: No. I am still disappointed, even though Judge Yan did, he upheld the conviction. Our family and I are going to have to go back into that courtroom. We're going to have to look at the murderer, the man that murdered my husband in the eye once again, and we are going to have to go through the circus of a courtroom, and it's been over 20 years.
It is clear that Mamia Abu Jamal murdered my husband in cold blood. Our web site, danielfaulkner.com, we put the 1982 trial transcripts up on our web site, and if you read these trial transcripts, you will see for yourself that Mamia Abu Jamal had control of his own destiny back in 1982.
The ballistics, the eyewitness testimony points to one person, and it was a jury of 12 that convicted Mamia Abu Jamal to death. And why Judge Yan, so many - 20 years later, because of a piece of paper, the wording that the jurors had to sign to decide that he gets a new sentencing hearing, it baffles me. It really does.
BROWN: Ms. Faulkner, do you believe that had it not been for all the celebrity interest and pressures that had gone on in Philadelphia and, in fact, around the world that this case would have ended differently?
FAULKNER: Yes. I believe that Judge Yan caved in under the pressure from the cause celebrity that Mamia Abu Jamal has received throughout the years on this case.
BROWN: And Chuck, let me ask you a kind of twist in that question. What is it about him that was so attractive to so many people, both in this country and around the world as a cause to get behind? Why him as opposed to any of the hundreds of people who are on death row around the country?
CHUCK D: Coming from a Black community, being a Black man in America. It was the same old story of a police brutality issue, or one-sidedness in the word versus word, and that's the thing that sparked me.
I found out about the Mamia case in Italy in 1993 on posters on the wall, saying America's a free place and the home of the brave and a place of the free and all that crap, and I'm finding out that Italy points to the hypocrisy.
All I know coming in a Black community when it comes to be word versus word, usually either the word from the Black community is always the lesser word. So that sparks my energies right away.
Like I said, I'm a particle of a movement where there's a lot of people out there that have recognized the one-sidedness in this. And also, there's the obvious fact that the police in Philadelphia was a very corrupt system in the early '80s. So if a person says that he was set up by the mob to make a killing or whatever, you know, you have to take that into consideration. Judge it on the climate.
BROWN: Have you ever thought that maybe you are wrong about this? That he did do it?
CHUCK D: You talking about me?
BROWN: Yes.
CHUCK D: Well, coming from like my area, I'm always going to lean towards my community as trying to have a word that's even with the other word that has always gone against it.
BROWN: OK. David, is there in Philadelphia tonight -- what is -- what is -- is it quite polarized? Is this this now all about race and all about racial history in the city and all about police history in the city and not a whole lot about the facts of the case?
LINDORF: I think this is a polarized city, very much, but I don't think this an issue of race as much as it's issue of -- of justice. I'm afraid we are not going to get to see some of this any more than the jury did.
For example, things like that one the key witnesses was on probation for fire bombing a school and was in violation of that probation. That was not presented to the jury in the original trial, and now we won't get a chance to have that kind of evidence presented to a jury.
BROWN: And the relevance of that is that that would be a perhaps reason for that witness to be something less that truthful?
LINDORF: One would think so.
BROWN: Is there any reason to believe that -- any specific reason to believe that witness was something other than truthful?
LINDORF: Well, you had four key witnesses and at least two of them were guilty of crimes, and were currently either incarcerated or were under probation, facing a return to prison. And in the case of either one of them the jury was not made aware of that information.
BROWN: And that is -- that is essentially a defense argument that had they known that, they might have found reasonable doubt at least?
LINDORF: Well, who knows? But we don't know because it wasn't presented to them. And I -- I would argue that that and many other examples like that are why this case should have gotten a new trial.
BROWN: Let me in the last few moments go back to Mrs. Faulkner here for -- for a minute or so. Let's say that what happens here -- and it's not clear that this is going to happen -- but let's say that what happens is he ends up spending the rest of his life in prison. Is that such a terrible outcome from where you sit? At least it's over. You know what's going to happen?
FAULKNER: Well, it's not over, Aaron, because every single day I have to live with the posters, the news commentaries, and the radio and TV having this man that murdered my husband on the airwaves, out in the public eye.
I mean, this man has not been put behind bars and his freedom taken away. He has a little cottage industry from his prison where he has made millions of dollars off the blood of my husband.
BROWN: But might it -- might it not..
FAULKNER: And in the past 20 years...
BROWN: I'm sorry, go ahead.
FAULKNER: I'm sorry.
FAULKNER: For the past 20 years...
BROWN: Well, I was just going to say might it not be the case that -- might it not be the case that if he is executed that all continues but his role is different, that he becomes a martyr?
FAULKNER: If he is executed he will become a faded memory, I think. And that's how I believe. And as I -- what I was saying before was Mumia Abu-Jamal has kept his silence and his brother have kept their silence for 20 years. Why don't they come forth and tell what happened the night my husband was murdered? Why are they keeping their silence? If -- if they are saying someone else murdered my husband, why don't they tell who it was? They were there at the scene of the crime.
The police showed up within a minute. The -- the crime scene was frozen in place. Mumia Abu-Jamal had an empty shoulder holster on his side. He had -- he had a gun next to him with five spent bullets in it -- in his gun.
I mean, there -- I went to the courtroom with an open mind in 1982 because I, as Danny's wife, wanted to know who murdered my husband. And there is no doubt in my mind who murdered my husband and it's Mumia Abu-Jamal.
BROWN: And let's end it on that note. Mrs. Faulkner, thanks for joining us.
FAULKNER: Thank you.
BROWN: Chuck D in Atlanta and David Lindorf in Philadelphia, thank you all. And all of you I hope you have good holidays. Thanks for being with us tonight.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, a moment frozen in time. The moment: the U.S. embassy in Kabul was evacuated more than a decade ago. We will take you inside when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We want to turn back the clock for a bit to a moment back in January of 1989. George Bush -- the first George Bush -- had just been inaugurated president, and in a faraway place mysterious to most Americans, a U.S. embassy was evacuated -- in a hurry -- in Kabul, Afghanistan.
The ranking diplomat at the time said, "we'll be back in a few months." It took nearly 13 years.
As we showed you last night, the American flag was raised there yesterday. Today we got a look inside the embassy. And like Afghanistan itself, it's a place forgotten by the world for a very long time. Our report is by CNN's John Vause.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A frozen moment in time: January 30, 1989, the day the U.S. embassy was evacuated. Windows and doors locked, bolted and welded shut.
The building has been deserted ever since, except for a small work force of Afghan guards and groundskeepers. We were among the first allowed inside. What we found was a time capsule. On the tables in the staff canteen, newspapers and magazines from a different era. On the front page of "Time," George Bush, with Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev. The deputy chief mission's office, like everywhere else, covered in a thick layer of dust. In the corner of the room, old reports on the Soviet Union, a reminder of the tensions of the Cold War.
The office of the charge d'affaires. An old record player. A photo of then-Secretary of State George Schultz. Everywhere throughout this building, signs of a frantic departure: filing cabinets left open, documents scattered across desks.
In the conference room, a cigar left in an ash tray, bottles of Fanta left half full.
When you look at this room -- what do you think when you come into a room like this?
JOHN KINCANNON, U.S. EMBASSY OFFICIAL: What I find interesting about it is that it seems to be just sort of a living time capsule of this -- of this embassy. It's clear that people when they left this embassy, they left in a hurry. And it's -- it's not neat. It's not tidy. I think that it shows, you know, sort of a nice, you know, touch of probably what -- what was going through everybody's minds as they were, you know, rushing to hurry up and get out of the building.
VAUSE: The embassy was closed after the Soviet withdrawal. There were fears that U.S. staff would be caught in the crossfire of the civil war which followed.
The Taliban ransacked this building, taking the floor carpet and office equipment, but to the surprise of U.S. staff here, there was no major damage.
What do you think about the future? What's going to happen in this office? I mean, you know, what's going to happen here, I guess, is the question?
KINCANNON: Well this, of course, you know, a key building block, you know, for -- for the, you know, the future of American relations with Afghanistan. And I assume it will not be too long before until we have another ambassador here, and America is back in Afghanistan in a big way.
VAUSE: There hasn't been an American ambassador here since 1979, when "Spike" Dubbs was assassinated. Lower-level diplomats were left in charge.
But now the American flag is again flying over the compound, the very same flag which was flying almost 13 years ago. For many Afghans, a symbol of hope that this time the U.S. may be here for good.
John Vause, CNN, Kabul.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: Fascinating. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, what turned a young American into a Taliban fighter? Some conservatives think they have an answer. The issue gets debated when NEWSNIGHT continues.
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BROWN: There was that remarkable meeting a few weeks back in the prison in Mazar-e Sharif of two young men -- and to some, two different cultures. Two different American cultures.
CIA officer Mike Spann, a former Marine, a child of small-town Alabama, whose family said he always wanted to serve his country. And in that prison, before he was killed, he met John Walker, a 20-year- old from Marin County, California, fighting with the Taliban. Whose parents sent him to an alternative school, supported his conversion to Islam, and allowed him to travel across the world to pursue his new religion.
Some conservatives jumped on Walker, saying he is a product of cultural liberalism -- the California kind -- helping to turn an impressionable kid against his own country.
Joining us from Salinas, California, one of those conservatives, Shelby Steele of the Hoover Institution. Mr. Steele wrote a provocative article the other day in the "Wall Street Journal" -- a column in the "Journal."
And here in New York, a columnist who thinks Mr. Steele is making an awfully broad generalization. Richard Cohen of the "Washington Post." It's nice to have both of you here. Mr. Steele.
SHELBY STEELE, HOOVER INSTITUTION: First of all, let me interrupt you just a minute.
BROWN: OK.
STEELE: Is Richard Cohen a liberal?
BROWN: Yeah, Richard Cohen's a liberal. I think he would say that, wouldn't he?
STEELE: Just wanted to make sure we were both.
RICHARD COHEN, "WASHINGTON POST" COLUMNIST: On this issue.
BROWN: On this issue. OK. Everyone is now branded, I guess.
STEELE: OK. Great.
BROWN: Now let me try...
STEELE: If I'm going to be, everybody is going to be.
BROWN: Let me try and get -- let me try and get a little control back. A few years back, Newt Gingrich blamed liberalism for Susan Smith's decision to kill her own children in South Carolina.
And I think when some people hear the argument you're making they're thinking about that and that seemed a stretch then. Are they -- are these different issues or is this the same thing?
STEELE: Well, I've certainly -- Susan Smith's situation and Newt Gingrich's comments on it had nothing to do with my thinking about John Walker.
But again, it -- I think mischaracterizes my argument to say that I'm -- I'm arguing that cultural liberalism on some one-to-one basis literally determined and created John Walker.
That was never my point and I make -- and I say several times in the piece that this liberalism, I think, cleared the way for John Walker. But it's a liberalism that affects, I think, an entire generation of young Americans and not -- not just him. But again, I do think it had -- it cleared the way for him to follow (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: What does that mean? What does that mean, cleared the way?
STEELE: Here's a young man who identified -- who came from a Catholic family but converted to Islam, a -- a religion from the third world, having nothing really to do with his own culture. And there is implicit in that conversion a rejection of America.
It was reading the autobiography of Malcolm X that triggered this conversion, according to his father. Malcolm's conversion was a protest against America.
And I think to a degree that it -- it may well be -- we don't know, because he's not here to confirm -- it may well be that -- that John Walker's conversion had something to do with that same anti- American theme.
And anyway, my point is that -- that he lived in a world in Marin County and in broader America that didn't argue with him, that didn't say -- that did not stand for American religions and American institutions and American culture.
He came from a culture where in fact the authority of the American institutions had been transfered to victim -- to victim -- people like Malcolm X, people who represent victimization and the suffering of minorities. And those -- that was where authenticity was and that was where there was a fresh and exciting new identity. Not an American.
BROWN: Let me -- let me stop you there and let Mr. Cohen in. A lot of things have been said. You want to jump on any one of them? He's sort of laid out the argument here.
COHEN: Well, something new has been introduced. I mean, the whole idea that there's such a thing as an American religion. I guess opposed to Judaism, Catholicism, Protestantism, but not Islam. I mean, that would be news to a whole lot of Americans who happen to be...
BROWN: Well, except that -- the point if you -- if you take it literally, OK. But when we -- we talk about the country people talk about the country as a Judeo-Christian background. And I think that...
COHEN: Sure.
BROWN: And I think that's the only point.
COHEN: Even if you go from there. Look. There were 3.6- something million kids born the year was John Walker was born. And as far as we know, only one of them wound up with the Taliban.
I would imagine -- I would even bet -- that of the kids born in Marin County the year that John Walker was born, more of them are serving in the army now than are with the Taliban. For sure.
So I can't see that this is a cultural reflection of it any more than Timothy Mcveigh is a product of upstate New York, rural America and army -- you know, army training.
Was Axis Sally a result of liberalism? Was Tokyo Rose a product of liberalism? Was Ezra Pound a product of liberalism? These are all three traitors. Convicted traitors. And yet they weren't -- none of them were from -- well, Axis Sally actually -- I mean, Tokyo Rose actually was from California.
BROWN: Yeah.
COHEN: But this was the old California. This was the old West.
So I don't -- I don't see John Walker as anything other than a fluke. I don't know if -- if he converted -- if he had an intellectual process, a cultural process or he fell on his head. I have no idea.
BROWN: And Mr. Steele, what's wrong -- what's wrong with that argument? I'm just trying to direct traffic a little bit here. But what's wrong with that? Where does that break down in your mind?
STEELE: Well, what's wrong -- well, what I would disagree with is that, again, I think it mischaracterizes my point.
My point was that there is a cultural liberalism that prevails, that is prominent in America and that -- that a theme of it is anti- Americanism and that in many ways it -- it suggests itself to young people to -- to their adolescent rebellion as -- as the way to -- in other words, the way to be hip, the way to be cool in high school -- often -- in college -- often -- is to take on a little theme of anti- Americanism, to identify with things from other cultures, to identify with -- with black alienation.
One of the fascinating things that always fascinates me is the fact that 80 percent of rap music in America is bought by white, middle class teenagers.
And this is a music of deep -- from the most alienated, anti- American segment of black America. And yet it is -- it is white kids who are buying this music, identifying with it and identifying, again, with the anti-Americanism in it is part of what makes it so attractive and compelling.
BROWN: 30 seconds or so left. Mr. Cohen, let me give you the last word. You -- you've earned it here.
COHEN: 30 seconds. If you were going to choose -- if you were going to choose a liberal environment, if you were going to choose a loosey-goosey relative place to go, it wouldn't be Afghanistan or the Taliban.
If -- if the '60s or the '70s or whatever here was supposed to be sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll, nobody thought of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll in terms of the Taliban.
It was the opposite of that. These are the fascistic wing of Islam. It is not in any way loosey goosey and representative of the so-called California ethic.
STEELE: But I don't think you're -- you're getting the point. My point is that there's an identification with victimization and that is -- that is exciting and that is -- again, the anti-American element of it is compelling.
And that -- and that you will find in the Taliban and in the entire fundamentalist Islamic movement around the world. It's the same sort of cult of victimization that we saw in Malcolm X. Malcolm X joined the -- an Islamic faith that was anti-American and politically radical and aggressive. That's what John Walker joined.
BROWN: Mr. Steele, this is the worst part of the job is to cut things off, perhaps a minute or so too early. I apologize to that. Thanks for joining us.
STEELE: Thanks very much.
BROWN: Mr. Cohen, it's nice to see you here in New York. Good holidays to both of you. Thank you.
When we come back, Jason Bellini -- a kid of our own -- in a collaboration with MTV News. Tonight, what the young people in Afghanistan think of their counterparts in the United States. It's actually kind of interesting and surprising. This is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: Kids and cultures again. Our Jason Bellini, working in conjunction with MTV News, has been talking with teenagers in Afghanistan. What do they know, what do they think of America, of Americans and especially of American teens?
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I'm really curious about is exactly what your stereotype is or what your feelings are on American teenagers and American youth today? JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What do you know about Americans?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have a car. Everyone has a car. But we don't have a car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't have a bicycle now.
BELLINI: OK>
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In that time we don't have a bicycle to go. In America all the peoples (sic) have car, but in Afghanistan we don't have a bicycle.
BELLINI: My sense has been a lot of Afghan teens are a bit jealous of American teenagers. American teens, they believe, can go off and do whatever they want. They don't have as many rules imposed upon them by their parents.
They're also very jealous of American teenagers. Get this. Because American teens get to go to school. They wish they could go to school. Particularly the girls.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (THROUGH INTERPRETER) They can go to school. They can get an education. We haven't got a situation that's comfortable enough for us to go to school. Maybe in a few months I'll also be able to go to school here in our courtry.
BELLINI: What do you think the major difference is between the way that your society lives and the way the American society lives?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (THROUGH INTERPRETER) In the United States, teenagers can say anything to their families when their family is wrong.
But here in Afghanistan girls and boys don't have a right to say anything to our families. For example, we haven't got a right to get married by ourselves. During the Taliban regime, some girls were married off to Taliban members, even though they didn't like them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you open to American involvement? How do you feel about America?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They want to come in our country to resolve our country.
BELLINI: So you think America wants to help you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BELLINI: Are you angry at America for bombing your country?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.
BELLINI: No?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are happy.
BELLINI: You're happy? Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because it's not against Afghan people. It's against the terrorist people, for Osama Bin Laden and his band.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they bring peace in our country, it's good. We like them, that they come in our country and bring peace.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: From Afghanistan, what they think of us. Jason's work continues throughout the week. We continue after this break.
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BROWN: Finally tonight from us, I want to tell you a story about a survivor of September 11th. We need to go back to ground zero to do this right.
The survivor was a flag. You may remember in the first couple of months after September 11th seeing this large American flag that was hanging off the side of the World Financial Center there, as you look at the live picture of ground zero.
And then they took the flag down. They brought it to the New York Police Department Emergency Services Unit. And from there it became a kind of evolving memorial, would probably be the best way to say it.
People wrote on the flag, all sorts of messages. A lot of firefighters wrote on it, memories of police officers who died or firefighters who died. A number of the people who died, in fact, were former Marines, so there are a lot of references to former Marines as well.
That flag made its way to Kandahar. And today in Kandahar, it was raised. And some of those Marines who read the words in the flag saw it. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good night.
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