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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Interview With Robert Pelton; Interview With Tom Daschle
Aired December 19, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again everyone.
I have been wanting to write about e-mails that we have been getting on the program for a while, and today seemed the right day. We got a lot today. But on a normal day, we are getting 200 to 300. And I read most of them and answer many. And it's a joy, not just the happy ones either, all of them.
One of the delights of these e-mails is it allows us to actually talk to one another, two way. It's terrific. So don't stop. Know they are read and appreciated, even if not everyone is answered. But do please consider one thing about them. I am not pond scum. I'm not a traitor. I am not a right-wing crazy or a left-wing crazy. I got called all of those things today.
The people on the staff are not Commies, though I will admit they're a little crazy at times. And to my knowledge, no one here, including me, sits out in front of elementary schools staring at little children. Also from the mail today. We can disagree. That's fair and good. We should be able to do it without be being nasty. It is, after all, the holidays. And one other thing: I agree, sometimes they are sophomoric. Onto the news we go.
It was a back to normal story today, if it's possible to have one at ground zero. The fires burning since day one were declared extinguished. Imagine that. Small isolated ones may still burn, but the big ones, the ones you could smell from miles away here in New York, are out.
Defense Secretary Rumsfeld today said the Pakistani army has captured several hundred al Qaeda fighters who crossed the border. As for bin Laden, Rumsfeld didn't narrow it down much. He's either dead, he said, or in some tunnel or alive. Yeah.
One Taliban fighter being held by the United States, the American, John Walker, of course. Officials tell CNN the White House still considering its options on what to do with him. And as Larry mentioned tonight, we'll show a bit of the interview with Walker. And we will also talk with the reporter who conducted it.
Some interesting other guests to note also. Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle and the Treasury Secretary, Paul O'Neill, of the battle over the economic stimulus package. And we are very pleased to have with us tonight Jack Welch, the golfer and, oh by the way, the former head of General Electric. He is a great American business story, and he'll be here in a little while.
Jason Bellini tonight in his latest co-production with MTV News from Afghanistan. MTV after all, so tonight, Afghan kids talk about music denied from them for so long.
All of that ahead. We begin, as we always do, with the whip around the world. And tonight that lands us first at the White House. There's a party behind our senior White House correspondent, John king. But, John, before the party, the headline please.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the president talked this morning as if there was a bipartisan deal on that economic stimulus package he wants. Well, tonight it is clear, there is no deal, even as the House Republicans debate their proposal. And odds are, we are told by both administration officials and Democrats, that there won't and deal by the time Congress goes home for Christmas. So in Washington tonight, something that has been missing the past three months but is coming back it appears: the blame game -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, I promise, back to you shortly. We'll get you inside. To Tora Bora, Afghanistan, Nic Robertson there. Nic, a headline please.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, al Qaeda fighters fleeing these mountains into Pakistan get into a shootout with Pakistani border guards. Some are killed. The 21 al Qaeda go on the run. Also here in the mountainsides, Eastern Alliance forces switching their efforts from searching for Osama bin Laden to scavenging the caves for the spoils of war. And the B-52s continue to circle in the skies, quite literally, Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, back to you too. The latest now on the case of Zacarias Moussaoui. That's what Susan Candiotti's been working on. Susan, the headline please.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. The only person charged so far in the September 11 attacks is moved to the Washington, D.C. area where his trial will be held. His first court appearance, short and sweet, and the first of very likely many to come -- Aaron.
BROWN: Susan, thank you. Back with all of you shortly.
We begin with a sign that the economy in the country is picking up. A key measure of future economic activity rose today, pointing to the possibility of a recovery early next year. So you may be wondering why all the fuss tonight in Washington over an economic stimulus bill.
In part, it's because no one can be sure some kind of relief won't be needed. And if it is, no one wants the blame for doing nothing about it now. The House could vote on a Republican-sponsored version of the bill early, very early tomorrow morning, Eastern time. They are working it now. But even if it passes, it may not settle much. We will explain why now in two reports beginning first on the Hill with CNN's Kate Snow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He made it sound like a done deal, as he zigzagged between meetings on Capitol Hill, President Bush said an economic stimulus bill was ready to go.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This bill will pass the House. It has got enough votes to pass the Senate. And therefore, I look forward to working with both bodies in any way I can to convince those who are reluctant to get a bill done, that this makes sense for America.
SNOW: But was there really a deal? At a meeting between Republicans and key moderate Democrats, sources say Mr. Bush was told a majority would support him in the Senate, but they still had a lot of selling to get the 60 senators needed to ensure passage. Even so, Bush told the cameras...
BUSH: I'm proud to report that members of both political parties in both bodies of Congress have come to an agreement.
SNOW: One Democratic source said of the photo op, "We were props." But the message was out, and the strategy, putting public pressure on Democratic Leader Tom Daschle.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president hopes that this will propel the Senate toward that compromise as opposed to further talk that doesn't lead to any type of tangible result. This can get talked to death if votes don't start to take place.
SNOW: Democrats said they were set up by the White House and House Republicans.
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: I think what they would like is for you all to write that they passed something and the Senate hasn't, and that they will attempt to portray that as an effort to defeat economic stimulus. It's -- it's -- you know, it's a breakdown in your ability to negotiate. And that's unfortunate.
SNOW: The biggest sticking point: health insurance for unemployed workers. The Republican bill provides a government credit that covers 60 percent of the cost and allows workers to buy insurance in the private market. Democrats insist that would prove difficult. Pre-existing medical conditions would drive up the cost and covering 60 percent isn't enough to begin with.
(on camera): That issue alone virtually ensures the bill will go nowhere in the Senate this week. While both sides publicly say they are still talking, privately many say, a bill to boost the economy won't happen this year.
Kate Snow, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll hear more from Senator Daschle a bit later in the program. Treasury Secretary O'Neill as well.
First, a closer look at the president's lobbying effort today, what's at stake for the administration. Back to the White House, senior White House correspondent John King is there.
John, I guess it depends on what your definition of agreement is, right?
KING: Well, this was a day, Aaron, that Washington proved that old adage that things are not always as they appear. The president said there was a deal. There wasn't. As Republicans introduced their bill in the House tonight, they called it a bipartisan, bicameral compromise. It is not. Both parties now blaming each other. The president blaming Tom Daschle. As you just heard, Tom Daschle saying no, it's the Republicans at fault. They won't compromise.
The question is not really how this will all play out in the next few days. Very few people expect a compromise before Congress goes home for Christmas. But the thing that has everybody's wheels spinning from a political standpoint right now is how will this play out next year? If the economy bounces back, probably nobody will get blamed. If the economy doesn't bounce back, both parties will be posturing. And that's the beginning of that effort we saw today.
BROWN: John, it is -- at least it was when I was working on this this afternoon -- a fact, I think, that there probably are 51, maybe 52, maybe even 53 votes for the Republican plan in the House. But it's not going to get it done, is it?
KING: No, it isn't. And the Democrats would remind you they were often 50, 60, maybe even 70 votes for things President Clinton wanted when the Republicans controlled the Senate. And if the majority leader in the leadership didn't want them done, they didn't get done. So this not a new scenario by any means. The Senate majority leader has the power to bring things to the floor. He wants a compromise with this president.
We have talked a lot in recent days about the parallels between Bush one and Bush two. This president does not want to be the president who wins a war and then loses his job because voters think he doesn't care about the economy. Another parallel also being drawn. The Senate majority leader back then in Bush one was George Mitchell, Democrat of Maine. One of his key deputies, Tom Daschle, now the majority leader from South Dakota. Many believe that Daschle has adopted the Mitchell strategy, support the president in the war, deny him his domestic agenda.
BROWN: John, thank you very much. John King, our senior White House correspondent on the lawn tonight. Thank you.
Back to the war now, or to the war now, more correctly, the manhunt that's going on again tonight. One key target, but not the only target by any means. The Defense secretary said today, Osama bin Laden could turn himself in and al Qaeda would still exist. So the hunt goes on for any and all members of the terrorist network along with a search of the caves they once occupied.
For more on that, back to Tora Bora and CNN's Nic Robertson. Nic, good morning to you.
ROBERTSON: Good morning from here, Aaron. Well, the fear of Eastern Alliance commanders has been here that al Qaeda fighters would flee their southwoods advance through the mountains and the al Qaeda would flee south on into Pakistan. Pakistani government says that it arrested more than 155 al Qaeda fighters so far, seeming to bear out the fear of these Eastern Alliance commanders.
But when Pakistani authorities were transferring some of those al Qaeda prisoners to a prison deeper inside Pakistan, there was a revolt on one of the buses. Apparently al Qaeda fighters grabbed the guns of some of their Pakistan guards, there was a shoot out, the bush crashed into a ravine and at least 7 al Qaeda were killed. Some Pakistani border guards were also killed in the shoot out but 21 al Qaeda fighters escaped and went on the run inside Pakistan.
But here on the on the ground the shift in focus has been from, by the Eastern Alliance commanders, has been very much away from the search for Osama bin Laden and really for scavenging for the spoils of war in the caves here. Their fighters have been taking out all the ammunition that has been stored inside the caves in the mountain sides here, taking it away apparently for their own use. But the pressure still on for the search for Osama bin Laden.
Last night, we could hear what sounded like helicopters flying into this area. We know U.S. special forces are still searching the mountains. Donald Rumsfeld has said that. These helicopters, we couldn't see them but we could hear them flying low over this village and we are right next to the mountains here. And also the search going still going on from the skies and also the position still being readied for the potential of bombing.
We can still see today B-52s circling in the air. literally circling. They are drawing figure eights in the sky very ominously over the mountains right here -- Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, do the Eastern Alliance commanders care as much about finding bin Laden as the U.S. side cares?
ROBERTSON: That's a very good question. Certainly there are differences of opinion between Eastern Alliance commanders here. It would appear as if some have been a lot more proactive than others in trying to catch al Qaeda and catch Osama bin Laden. It will perhaps be going to far to say that some of those Eastern Alliance commanders have perhaps been complicit in letting some al Qaeda slip away and letting Osama bin Laden slip away.
But it would certainly be apparent to us, from what we have seen here on the ground, that some commanders have definitely tried harder, put more forces on ground, have gone higher up the mountains than other commanders so there is potentially some truth in what you say, Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson in Tora Bora tonight.
We haven't seen many pictures of Afghanistan that looked pretty, it looked pretty in background there, didn't it?
Some of the fighters captured in Pakistan, that Nic was talking about, may in fact end up back in Afghanistan at a Marine prison camp that has been built at the airport in Kandahar. The will join 15 prisoners who are already there, brought in last night under very heavy security. You can just make some of this out as it goes by on the screen now. The Pentagon believes some of these prisoners could be high-ranking al Qaeda members, or perhaps high-ranking Taliban.
Here at home the Justice Department says 460 people are now being held in connection one way or another, with September 11. That's down a hundred from about a week ago. Most of these people, it is important to keep in mind, are facing immigration charges; 160 are facing criminal charges. But only one of them, Zacarias Moussaoui, is charged with direct involvement in the conspiracy itself. He went before a federal judge today.
Joined again by CNN's Susan Candiotti who was in court as well. Susan, good evening.
CANDIOTTI: Good evening, Aaron. Zacarias Moussaoui did not utter a word, not that he was expected to, during his first court appearance in the state where he will face trial on charges of terrorism.
Under heavy security, Moussaoui, a French citizen, was flown by U.S. marshals from New York where he was being held, to Washington's Reagan National Airport and on to the federal courthouse in the Washington suburb of Alexandria, Virginia.
At a serve-minute-long hearing a magistrate formally read a summary of the charges against Moussaoui. He listened quietly, sitting between two of his three lawyers, all assigned by the court. He wore a government-issued t-shirt and slacks and carried a large envelope. Moussaoui is the first person directly charged in connection with the September 11 attack. The six conspiracy charges include hijacking a plane and using it as a weapon of mass destruction.
Fours of six the counts carry a possible death penalty. The government accuses Moussaoui of getting the same training, the same as Qaeda funding and sharing the same, quote, "commitment to kill as the 19 hijackers who carried out the September 11 attacks. Next court appearance, January 2. That's Moussaoui's arraignment, where he can enter a plea. He is being held without bond, his lawyers could argue that issue at his arraignment.
And Aaron, despite all the heavy security outside the courtroom, Moussaoui was not handcuffed as he faced the judge. But there were plenty of U.S. Marshals just inches away -- Aaron. BROWN: I'm curious about a couple things here. One is if the defense -- let me ask this a little more directly -- are the lawyers talking about this at all? Are they under a gag order? Are they being very careful about what they say?
CANDIOTTI: Well, they are not under a gag order. And we have been trying mightily to speak with them. In fact, I did talk with one of his lawyers briefly at the courthouse this day. And afterwards, after spending an hour with their client, the very first time they had a chance to meet with him, they said they had nothing to say at this time, but wanted to confer with their client further and might later on.
BROWN: And so we don't really know what kind of a defense they are going to mount, how they are going to attack the prosecution case yet?
CANDIOTTI: That's right. But it seems to be a highly circumstantial case, as we've discussed on previous occasions at this time. Apparently, there is no clear cut evidence that Moussaoui knew or had any direct dealings with any of the 19 other hijackers. And it's also not clear whether he was meant to be the 20th hijacker or was he considered to be part of a future possible attack against America.
Interesting, among his possessions, Aaron, they found some flight simulators on how to fly a 747, which is a larger plane than those used on the attacks on the World Trade Center and Flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania. So that's often a plane that's used in overseas flights, as you know.
BROWN: Well, that's an enticing way to end. Thank you, Susan Candiotti in Washington tonight. Talk about your trials of the century.
In a moment, we'll hear from the American Taliban, John Walker -- CNN exclusive. And also, we will talk with the man who conducted the interview. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One dilemma facing the Bush administration in the war on terror is personified by a 20-year-old from Marin County, California. John Walker, as I'm sure you know by now, is being held on an American warship. And while many are calling his fighting on the side of the Taliban treason, the administration itself hasn't decided exactly what to do with him. Among the range of options being considered, we're told, is charging him under a law that prohibits assisting terrorists. That law carries a 10-year sentence.
Today, CNN received additional videotape that was taken of Walker shortly after his capture at that violent uprising at Mazar-e Sharif. The video was shot by CNN contributor Robert Pelton at another prison in Afghanistan where Walker was being treated for his wounds. We will talk to Pelton shortly. The back story is fascinating. Walker, who said that he hadn't slept in days and hadn't eaten in a week was clearly in bad shape and initially said he didn't want to be videotaped. But he was well aware the camera was there, the lights were on and he talked, including some conversation about the end of the prison siege.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN WALKER, AMERICAN TALIBAN FIGHTER: And, so after the water receded somewhat, then, you know, we began to discuss with one another just the topic was on our minds naturally, the, you know, the basement was filled with stench and bodies. We didn't have any more weapons available. But they said, look, we are going to die either way. If we surrender, then they will kill us. Is it better to be killed? I mean, if we surrender, the worst that can happen is that they will torture us or kill us, right? So right here in the basement, they are torturing us and killing us. So -- might as well surrender. At least we might have a chance?
ROBERT PELTON, AUTHOR: Was your goal to be Shahid (ph), the martyr?
WALKER: It's the goal of every Muslim.
PELTON: Was it your goal, though?
WALKER: Huh?
PELTON: Was it your goal at that time?
WALKER: I'll tell you, to be honest, every single one of us, without any exaggeration, every single one of us was 100 percent sure that we would all be shot at (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But, you know, Allah chooses to take a person's life when he chooses that we have no control over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Joining us now from London, Robert Pelton, the man that conducted the interview with John Walker. Mr. Pelton, Robert, good to talk to you. How alert would you say John Walker was when you talked to him?
PELTON: When I first saw him he was lying on the floor and he advanced stages of hypothermia, and obviously he had been starved and was very, very tired. When I initially talked to him he was very hostile, but I suggested to the special forces medic that I had brought, that we get him upstairs. He was administered an IV of Haspan (ph) and once that took effect, he started to wake up. I explained who I was and he we began talking.
BROWN: Do you think he understood how serious his situation was, at that point?
PELTON: Well, keep in mind, he had gone in seven months earlier and was fighting on the front-lines of the Takar Province. He wasn't privy to all the news and the information that we have. His goal was not to fight America, it was simply to assist the Taliban in the fight against the Northern Alliance.
BROWN: Do you think when you talked to him, he understood that he could face treason charges in the United States, that a death penalty was possible, that he had in any case, enormous legal problems ahead of him?
PELTON: I think his choices at that point were dying on thousand floor with 18 other men, four of whom had just died while I was there, or being a prisoner in Afghanistan. So, I don't think he looks at it in that sort of scope.
BROWN: I'm curious what the attitude of the American soldiers who were around you when this was going on, what their attitude was towards him?
PELTON: Well, I stayed with the special forces at Dostum's and obviously they were very negative towards his existence, but keep in mind, I brought a medic who dealt very fairly with him, very gently with him, administered excellent medical care and was concerned about his well being obviously for a couple reasons, one is so he could stay alive and two, so they could get more information from him.
BROWN: Help us little bit on the time line here. You talked to him how soon after the uprising ended in Mazar?
PELTON: I met him Monday, November 26 around midnight. I had been at the fort that day and I was staying with General Dostum. So General Dostum actually brought the prisoners to me in Shebregon (ph), which was where the prison was. There was one truck with a number of dead and dying and wounded Taliban covered by blue blankets and I didn't actually see John at that time.
Then one of his people ran back and said there was American in the hospital so I went up stairs, grabbed a special forces medic, and he took his kit bag and we ran down there and then began talking to him.
BROWN: Robert, terrific work. Just a really nice piece of work. Thanks.
PELTON: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. Robert Pelton from London tonight on his interview with John Walker.
Coming up next here on NEWSNIGHT, both sides in the fight over the economic stimulus plan. We will talk with Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, and with the Senate Majority Leader Democrat Tom Daschle. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back to Washington now and the political battle raging, literally raging now, between the White House and Democrats on the Hill. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill was out today driving home the president's side of the story both to the public and to centrist Democrats. The economy needs stimulus, he says, and Congress needs to pass a plan and needs to do it before Christmas. We spoke with him earlier this afternoon. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Mr. Secretary, a lot of words are flying back and forth so let me ask you a political question first: Do you think the Democrats here are playing politics or that this is just an honest and difficult philosophical agreement about how to handle a recession?
PAUL O'NEILL, TREASURY SECRETARY: Well, I think it's more the latter. There is a disagreement about what the components of a stimulus bill ought to be. But I think there is a very good thing, there seems to be unanimity of view that there needs to be stimulus package. Today the president had a public session with the centrist coalition and it's pretty clear that we have -- that is to say, we the American people, have a majority of votes in both the House and Senate to pass a bill that's got the right components in it that directly helps people that have been affected by the slowdown in the economy and the events of September the 11th, provide support for businesses to keep the jobs they have and add 300,000 new ones and provide direct relief to people including health coverage for people who have been displaced in the workforce.
So I think there is a unanimity of agreement. We need to act and I remain very hopeful we are going to get it done. As a matter of fact, I can't imagine the Congress of the United States wants to go home and face their constituents and say they couldn't get this done.
BROWN: That sounds like putting a little pressure back; 51 votes doesn't get it done in the Senate on a big bill, it doesn't get it done when it is Republicans who want it, or when it is Democrats who want it, so where do you round up the extra votes or how do you put pressure on the majority leader to let this come to a vote?
O'NEILL: Well, I think where we are at the moment, the House is clearly on board, and there are 53 or 54 maybe even more votes than that for the centrist coalition which is a bipartisan group of Republicans and Democrats.
And the real question is, whether a majority isn't enough to win. It's true that there are some arcane rules one could -- the majority leader or someone else could ask for a 60-vote bar to be lifted in order to do this, but I find it quite incredible that the members of Congress want to go home and say, we couldn't act and even though we had a majority, a willful minority kept us from doing things that are helpful to the American people.
BROWN: Sir, I saw some economic numbers today, I'm sure you saw them in far more detail, that at least suggested the economy is perking up a bit. Are you still convinced that this package is necessary, that by the time it is actually in place, there will be a need for it?
O'NEILL: I'm convinced of this, no matter what, no matter what the level of economic activity is, this package will add 300,000 jobs to the American economy that wouldn't otherwise be there and it will hasten the pace of the recovery. Those are both very important things and there are some people in the Congress who said to me, well, it is only 2/10 of one percent of GNP. And I must tell you I think that's really a heartless way to look at it for everyone of the 300,000 people that are going to be employed as a result of this bill. Believe me, they count as individual human beings.
And the president has said over and over again, this is about real people. We can't let ourselves be put into a place where we think about these abstract concepts. This is about the real people of America. They responded to the things we need to do. We need to help them.
BROWN: And is the bill that is before the House today a better bill for real people than the bill that passed the House previously?
O'NEILL: Well, I think the virtue of the bill that is under consideration now, the centrist coalition bill, is it has a majority of votes in both houses of Congress, which is not the case with the first bill that was passed. It clearly did not have a majority in the Senate. And what is good here is what works. And what works is what gets enough vote to pass.
BROWN: Would you have preferred the other bill, or is this, for the economy, a better bill?
O'NEILL: I'm for what works. And, you know, abstract concepts are very interesting. The president wants us to deliver so that we can help Americans out there who have been dislocated by the economic slowdown and the events of September the 11th and we need to do this. The president made it very clear, he is providing leadership. He is driving, he is working on this every day. You have those in the administration working with members of Congress to try to get this done. We are sparing no effort to make it clear to the American people, the president, the administration, we want this to happen for the American people and we want it to happen before the Congress goes home.
BROWN: Mr. Secretary, thanks. I think you've just made the argument pretty well. We wish you -- we're delighted to have you with us. We wish you a happy holiday.
O'NEILL: Same to you. Thanks very much for letting me be here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill.
Now, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle. Senator Daschle's been called the cork on the bottle by his Republican counterpart in the House, accused of plugging up action on the economic stimulus plan. Senator Daschle joined us this afternoon from the Senate gallery.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) Senator, a couple of political questions. First, I guess, the House Republican seems to believe they have you in a box, that they have a bill that would get 51 votes in the Senate if you allowed it to come to a vote. Do they have a point? Do they have you boxed in here?
DASCHLE: Aaron, in the Senate, obviously, all votes that are controversial require 60. We weren't able to get 60 votes when President Clinton offered his $17 billion stimulus package in 1993. Just today, I couldn't get 60 votes on our farm bill. So 60 votes is the minimum threshold for controversial legislation, and there are not 60 votes for this bill today.
BROWN: And the reason, if it came down to one reason, there weren't 60 votes, the reason would be what, or is not quite that simple?
DASCHLE: I would say that if there is one reason, it's because it is just too costly. This is over a $200 billion bill, all of the money borrowed. All of the money taken from Social Security and Medicare. And we are just not going to support a bill of that magnitude when it provides so much of the benefit, 100 percent of the benefits over seven years, for the richest and the wealthiest among us. That isn't necessary. That isn't good public policy.
BROWN: And on this -- the part of this debate that centers around health care and who gets it and how it is administered, have you moved at all on that argument?
DASCHLE: Absolutely. One of the first things we said is that we would be willing to take the Republican proposal and move from a direct payment, some direct assistance, to a tax credit to the employers and the employees themselves. That was a major concession, very controversial within our caucus. But we did it in the effort to try to reach some compromise and common ground.
BROWN: So, what is it -- help me -- I think all of us here understand if they did what, not that they are going to do what you asked, but if they did what, you would be onboard?
DASCHLE: Well, what we have said is that we are willing to support the depreciation proposals that they have, which help a lot of business. We are willing to support the net operating loss provisions. We're willing to support the Domenici payroll tax holiday. We are willing to support a lot.
But what we are not willing to support is a permanent elimination of the alternative minimum tax, helping no one but the largest corporations. We're not willing to support accelerating the tax cuts that were made last spring, in large measure, because we can't afford them. And we are prepared to push as hard as we can for unemployment and health benefits for the unemployed. They are about the only people we haven't helped so far this year.
BROWN: I think your harshest critics right now are saying something that goes roughly like this: You are playing politics with this because you really don't want this to pass. And the reason you don't is you would really like to run against a bad economy next fall in the congressional elections.
DASCHLE: You know, if you go through and look at all the different things we've attempted to do -- keep in mind that our economic stimulus bill that was offered on the Senate floor passed out of the finance committee three or four weeks ago was stopped on a parliamentary maneuver by the Republicans. They were the ones who refuse to meet with us for a couple of weeks because they didn't like the size of the table. I mean, as silly as some of those things are. So, it's ironic that I would be the one explaining why we don't have a deal. But I have to say we are continuing to work and we will always work to see if we can find common ground, and that includes all the way up until the time we leave.
BROWN: Do you think actually -- maybe this should have been the first question -- but do you think actually, at this point in where the economy is, that in fact a stimulus package is necessary?
DASCHLE: Well, it is certainly necessary from the point of view of those who are unemployed. You know, we have extended unemployment benefits on three occasions in the last recession. And there is no, absolutely no reason why Republicans and Democrats can't agree to do that. So if nothing else, we ought to be looking to find ways to help those who are unemployed. That is stimulus. That is also what we ought to do as Americans interested in helping those who are disadvantaged in this economy today.
BROWN: But on all of those other provisions of the bill that include helping businesses recover so that they can hire more people and so on, are you convinced that that is still necessary?
DASCHLE: I'm not convinced it's essential that we pass each of those provisions. Do I think it would help? Absolutely. I think we do need to spur the economy and I think there are a number of things that we can do that are far less costly and that are a lot more temporary.
Every economist, Aaron, that we talked to said, by all means, don't do anything permanent. Don't do anything that is going to run up the debt so you exacerbate long-term interest rates. That is what we are trying to avoid. And yet, on every one of those points, the Republicans in this administration seem not to care. They are not interested in long-term interest rates. They don't appear to be interested in running up the debt.
BROWN: Senator Daschle, we always enjoy our time with you. Have a wonderful holiday. Thanks for joining us today.
DASCHLE: Thank you very much, Aaron.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator Tom Daschle -- we talked with him earlier this afternoon.
Coming up next, a legendary American CEO, Jack Welch, lots of things to talk about. This is NEWSNIGHT on a Wednesday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This segment is off the news, as we say in the business. It was almost off the wall, but our next guest was smart enough to reject the opportunity to be this week's mystery guest. Jack Welch is, in the business world, a legend. He's been called the greatest manager of the 20th century. And anyone lucky enough to have bought GE stock during the years he ran the company is not going to argue much with that.
He's written his story in a book called "Straight From the Gut." And I'll confess to you these book interviews are the hardest things to do because there is no way to do the book justice in five minutes. So we're just going to talk about some stuff. And my guess is he'll be engaging enough to sell a few books along the way. We are very pleased to welcome Mr. Welch.
JACK WELCH, FORMER CHAIRMAN & CEO, GENERAL ELECTRIC: Aaron, thanks a lot for having me.
BROWN: Thank you. I just asked you a second ago who buys the book. You sold a lot of books -- business people?
WELCH: No. It's business people, mothers, pediatricians. It's a story of a mother and her tough love with her son, a mother who showered all of this -- I didn't realize it when I wrote the book, but it turned out to be that way.
BROWN: When you wrote the book, who were you writing it for?
WELCH: I don't know. I thought I had for people who wanted to try and do something. You know, it was anybody got a chance. I mean, I was a caddie. I didn't have two nickels to rub together. I got lucky. Put a great team together and it all worked out.
BROWN: There's a lot to the Welch philosophy. I want to talk about a couple things. You talk in the book about how GE was a place where ideas were just flying all over the place. And when I read it, I went, well that seems obvious. Why is it not in American business?
WELCH: Because it's very hard for a society that always promoted the person with the idea to reward those who spread the idea and who grab ideas. You know, not invented here is a very popular syndrome in corporate America, I'm sure in the news room. And so, it's everywhere. And the idea that a boundaryless culture looks every morning to find a better way and looks for a new idea is pretty new.
BROWN: I asked someone today who covers business what made you as a CEO different from other CEOs he covered. And one of the things he said is that you were just a remarkably secure person, that you didn't need people to be toadies, as it were. Do you think that's there -- well, A: Do you think that's true? And B: Do you think insecurity is a problem in the boardrooms in the country?
WELCH: I think insecurity is a problem anywhere. I think self confidence -- I mean, here I am. I have a speech impediment, but I'm comfortable with myself. But the facts are a lot of people are.
But if you're not -- I mean, I think what a manager has to do is provide self confidence to people. It's all about letting people stretch and reach and dream. It's not about sitting on them and managing them and, you know, and that's the problem. If you've got an insecure boss, he's worried about you looking too good instead of watching you flower and grow.
BROWN: Do you miss it?
WELCH: No. I love this.
BROWN: Yes, but I mean, you ran...
WELCH: I like consulting.
BROWN: You ran one of the most interesting companies in the world because it's so -- I mean, people who don't know GE -- it's, I don't know, a hundred different businesses. It's everything.
WELCH: But what I did was I was involved with a whole mess of people. I was really developing people. They were running the businesses. I was involved in them. But I'll tell you, it's all about -- this is no different than -- we were talking about baseball before we went on. This is no different. The team that fields the best players wins. That's what the game is. Business is the same as baseball. I mean...
BROWN: What makes you so smart here? How come you're the guy who ran the company and you're the guy that retired with, I assume, a pretty comfortable pension plan and the rest?
WELCH: Yes, the whole thing.
BROWN: yes.
WELCH: Well, because I was able to engage armies of people. I got in their skin. I let them grow. I let them reach. I let them stretch. And they grew. And a lot of them were a hell of a lot smarter than I was.
BROWN: And the that was OK with you?
WELCH: I loved it. I loved seeing people grow.
BROWN: If there is one thing you miss these days about being in the game, if there is one, what would it be?
WELCH: Right now, I have a series of companies I'm working with. I'm talking to a lot of universities and seeing a lot of kids. I really don't miss anything. I'm watching with excitement as my successor does great things. It's exciting.
BROWN: About a minute left. These things are always supposed to be fast. As you travel around the country -- I know you've done this. You do what people do when they write books. What have you learned about people as you meet them in malls and bookstores and all those places?
WELCH: The same thing I knew in GE. I mean, but the facts are GE does touch a lot of lives and a lot people come up with a story. And people are wonderful. They wait three and four hours in line and they come and tell you a story and -- shake hands with everyone. I loved it. I mean, this experience to me of going on book signing -- I hated writing the book. I loved being with people. And I'm giving all the money to charity. So I don't mind hawking it. You know, if I was hawking it and I was grabbing money, it would be a tougher deal.
BROWN: Do they treat you like a big deal or do they treat you like their next door neighbor?
WELCH: Next door neighbor.
BROWN: I bet you like that.
WELCH: I love it.
BROWN: Are you going to write another one or is that...
WELCH: No, this is it.
BROWN: No matter how many it sells?
WELCH: No matter how many it sells.
BROWN: It's nice to meet you. Will you come back and talk to us about, I don't know, all sorts of -- baseball, golf, all sorts of things?
WELCH: I'd love to talk golf with you.
BROWN: Thank you. You got a deal.
WELCH: Great. Thanks a lot.
BROWN: Very nice to meet you. Have a wonderful holiday.
WELCH: Enjoy, thanks.
BROWN: Thank you.
We will continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Pretty strange when you get criticized on a story before it airs. And it's perhaps equally strange to respond to the criticism. Anyway, it happened to us after a British newspaper got wind of our latest report from Jason Bellini. Jason has been working with us and MTV News in Afghanistan to bring the story of young people there to young people here. The focus tonight of his work tonight is music. And we should say at the outset that some Americans kids wanted to know what Afghan kids thought of their, the American kids, favorite U.S. pop stars. And the Afghan kids didn't know a whole lot. The criticism from the newspaper is that we somehow were making fun of these kids and about their isolation. Nothing could be further from the truth. If anything, Jason's report may show some American kids that the world does not revolve around them, their Britney's and their boy bands. And that is not a bad lesson to teach.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I listen to R&B music. I was wondering what kind of music do you listen to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Indian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Indian music?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iranian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iranian music?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about American music?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes? Who do you like? What kind?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now that, I think, the Taliban has been lifted, and you can listen to music now, like, what music is available to you?
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): You want to know what types of music is available here in Afghanistan. So I've come to this area of Kabul where there are a bunch of stalls where they sell video cassettes. They sell music cassettes. I'll show you what they've got.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome. Who are you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson, American top chart. Backstreet Boys.
BELLINI: Backstreet Boys are here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BELLINI: Who buys the Backstreet Boys here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just the people who know English and they like the American music. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was it like trying to get music while were you under the Taliban regime?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hear music but secretly. Because we couldn't increase the volume, the sound. Yes, because we were afraid about the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of sound outside, not to be found by the security forces of the religious police.
BELLINI: If the Taliban were to catch to listening to music what would happen?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tape was of course broken and also the other, the person who was the listener were brought jail.
BELLINI: Why is music so important to you that you would take the risk of going to prison?
BELLINI: Because I really need, our soul needs such things, so if we didn't watch, if we didn't listen, so what would we be now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really like Jennifer Lopez. What kind of music do you like?
BELLINI: I brought with me this magazine that I bought in Pakistan and Islamabad, it's called "Star" magazine, "Celebrity" magazine and I wanted to see if you recognize any of the people in here. Do you know who this is right here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
BELLINI: J. Lo. Do you know who that is?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
BELLINI: What about Britney Spears, have you heard of Britney Spears? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
BELLINI: Do you know who this is? Look at the face. Look at the hair.
BELLINI: I don't know.
BELLINI: You don't know? That is Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael...
BELLINI: That is Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also about Michael Jackson, his face is changing.
You know, in the situation that we were, it was, there was a position of every kind of restriction. Now there is a changing of government, no we, for example, achieved our freedom, yes, and you know, that for example, that watch TV, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that you see, for example, the artist, the others, but before we were not allowed, so of course now they are looking strange to us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are all, they are stars.
BELLINI: All of them are stars, yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: ... continues tomorrow and now if you want to criticize the piece, have at it. You've seen it.
Next on NEWSNIGHT a story about two fire trucks, one destroyed at ground zero, live destroyed along with it, and another bound for New York City, donated by a southern town trying to help a fire department here recover. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally from us, tonight, firetrucks. A brand new one is en route tonight to New York tonight, after making a pit stop at the White House today, 29 feet long, 42,000 pounds built to the exact New York City fire department specifications, and paid for by the people of Louisiana, the spirit of Louisiana they're calling it. Destined to replace one of the 35 fire trucks destroyed on September 11.
President Bush said today, they may talk with a different accent, but they share the same dangers and share they did. Even after paying for the truck, there's hundreds of thousands of dollars still left over, so it's possible New York will get a second spirit of Louisiana.
Keep that in mind now. You might remember the picture we showed you last night about this time, a fire truck uncovered after all these months at ground zero. You know instantly when you look at it, many lives were connected to it. You may wonder how many lives were lost. The truck was Ladder 4, pride of Midtown and if you thought looking at it from your living room was eerie and upsetting last night, imagine what it was like for those who knew Ladder Four, knew those who rode on the truck that day and didn't come home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL CIOFFI, LADDER FOUR: We were looking for that truck for a long time. After the second month we kind of gave up on it and them the other night at about 4:30 in the morning got a phone call to the firehouse that they found the rig. Can't believe it was that far down but it just kind of gives you an idea of the power and the force of what they did to us.
LT. RICHARD TARKENTON, LADDER FOUR: It was good. The first question of course is, was anybody with the rig. That was my first question, but nobody was found. It's nice. You know, we didn't know if the rig was found, where the it had been, where it was going. It was like 30 or 40 feet underground when it was found. It's kind of a closure kind of thing. AL SCHWARTZ, LADDER FOUR: It didn't mean much. We lost 15 guys from the house and they only recovered one, so we were kind of hoping that maybe when they got the truck and they found the truck that they'd find a few more people but right now they haven't found anybody else.
CIOFFI: The truck's replaceable. It's already been replaced but the guys we lost will never be replaced. Their experience their friendship, camaraderie. That's something we will never get back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: No we won't. That's our report for tonight. Have a great evening from all of us at NEWSNIGHT. See you tomorrow at 10. Good night.
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